← Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald
Loading summary
Transcript218 lines
- [00:00]
A
This message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a Course for Change Want to make real change in your life, career and community? At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W. With online programs designed for working professionals. You'll gain hands on skills to take on real world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Walden University is where working professionals like you get the W, the knowledge, the skills and the confidence to make the changes you want to in your career and community. With Walden's Tempo Learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just the flexibility to progress toward your degree at your own pace. Available in select programs. Gain practical skills through real world scenarios that prepare you to make a positive impact on others. Learn from Walden's faculty, scholars and practitioners with real world experience to share. 94% of whom hold doctoral degrees. Take the first step. Visit Waldenu. Edu Walden University set a Course for Change Certified to operate by Chev when it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people really love. Beautiful, timeless pieces that they'll wear for years. That's why I am going with Quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats and everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.com juicy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com jucy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicy.
- [01:53]
B
When the holidays start to.
- [01:54]
A
Feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter Spiced Cranberry and put your twist on tradition. A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor fusion Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry is a.
- [02:07]
B
Refreshing way to shake things up this.
- [02:09]
A
Sipping season and only for a limited time. Sprite Obey your thirst. Heather McDonald has got the juices Scoop.
- [02:22]
B
When you're on the road, when you're on the go, Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood tales, her real life Mr.
- [02:30]
A
Segment, serial data and cereal sister. You'll be addicted and addicted fast to.
- [02:36]
B
The number one tabloid real life podcast.
- [02:39]
A
Listen in.
- [02:39]
B
Listen up. Woo woo.
- [02:42]
A
Hannah McDonald juicy scoop hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I have a great brand new show for you today. A super, super juicy interview is going to come after I get into a few hot topics and updates with the niece of the Head of Scientology. Yeah, it's a real juicy one. First couple updates. So we now know that Nick, Rob Reiner's son, who is being held for the murders of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Reiner, who is also a photographer and quite accomplished singer, he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. And in that diagnosis of schizophrenia, they had changed his medication around, which they thought was going to work. It was not working. Also, there's been reports that Rob Reiner did share with friends that he was very afraid of him. Also, there was talk that there were people who did want to call the cops on Nick, being that his behavior was so bizarre at Conan o' Brien's party. But according to Page Six, he didn't want to do that. He didn't want to make a bigger deal out of it. Maybe at the request of Rob, I don't know, also that he was either not living in the guest house or was not being kicked out of the guest house, something to that effect. But like I said before, I think that there, besides him going through his mental situation, he. I think there was probably some type of finality in some type of conversation. I don't know, that would have set him off. We will never really know, even if he comes to. I don't know that he'll ever really tell us the steps of what happened. But, you know, it's just very disturbing. And his face. His family has spoken out and thanked everyone for the outpouring, but that's what we are with the. With the schizophrenia. And he was in a very expensive place just prior to what happened, which was $70,000 a month. Then the diagnosis of schizophrenia, the change of medication. So if they're going for a not guilty by reason of insanity, but then he gets put away. I don't know that people ever get put away for life. So if that is the case, I think then in, you know, 10 years, 15 years, maybe he'll be evaluated again. But I'm guessing that is what they're going to go for. They have the Karen Reed, famed former attorney. And I think that there's some definite valid points, that he was absolutely not in his right state of mind and was in fact, insane when he committed these crimes. So there we go. Okay, switching gears to some light fun. A little update on Real Housewife of Beverly Hills. Well, finally, Kyle has come even more clean than she did before about her former relationship with this person. Doesn't say Morgan Wade. And that they had this speed dating kind of a party that Bose throws, which was very reminiscent of Patty Stinger's million dollar matchmaker to one point. Bose goes, just reminding you guys you're halfway through your conversation. Like, I remember those type of things. And one of my friends was there. Ben Glebe, comedian. And I was like, how the heck did this happen? I do believe he was single at the time, so that part was real. It doesn't seem like there was any great matchmaking, but it was pretty fun. And they are all single except for Bose and this new girl, Amanda, who is a money manifestation life coach for women and has a book, rich af. And I find her likable. I think she's like, positive and everything. But she starts to tell Dorit, you know, what she should be doing as she's getting going through this divorce with PK and she doesn't know where the money is and she doesn't know what's going on with their retirement. And Bose, being the businesswoman that she is, is like, well, your job is to help women with finances. What do you think she should do? Amanda, since you're like the life coach of finances. And she's like, well, I think the biggest thing that you need to do to figure out Dorit. Yes, I have to figure out a lot of things. PK is one minute he's paying the mortgage, the next he's not. And it's very confusing. And I don't know, but my name is on everything, but I don't know where all those accounts are. And then Bose is like, so, Amanda, like, what's the next thing she should do? Well, the next thing that you should do is you need to manifest where you want to see yourself financially after PK who is Dorit in a year, that's what you need to do. And Bose is like, I mean, Bose's BS meter was just off. You know, Amanda did nothing wrong. What she's saying is good advice, but it just isn't real financial advice. There wasn't anything like, okay, this is. First, what you need to do is you need to get a letter from your attorney stating that you need to do this. Then you need to get a forensic accountant and you have to do it an international one. And I actually have a great one I can recommend. Like, something like. That's what Bose was wanting, like an answer, but it's very, very entertaining and juicy at that. Oh, and then that's when Kyle goes, I might go Brad. I might go Angelina. So, you know, I. We'll see. My prediction is Kyle ends up dating a man next. And that's just my prediction. But we'll see. Then we hop over to Real House of Salt Lake City, which was really fun. They're in Greece. And to just continue with the lesbian housewife theme, they ask, oh, have you ever kissed a girl? And Bronwyn is like, I have. I have kissed a girl and I've enjoyed it. And they're like, how many? She's like, more than one. And she's like, oh, well, have you done more than kissing? I may have. And then Brittany is like, well, I know how many guys I've kissed.
- [09:02]
B
And they're like, how many?
- [09:03]
A
She's like 67. So I was like, okay. So this like 45 year old woman has been like keeping a log of everyone that she's hooked up with just for kissing. And I just want to say back in the day in college, we had our last senior year of college in my sorority house, we had a scam board which meant kissing or more. But if you kiss somebody, you would be like, put the date and the name and how many people got, how many people did you hook up with before the end of graduation? And I won. I won. And then I brought that scam board home to my parents house. And my dad was like, this is great. This is the only thing you've ever won in your life. And he thought it was the funniest thing. He was very proud of it. So I can relate to Brittany. Why the heck not? But Brittany goes, where's. No, sorry. Bronwyn goes, where is Whitney in this conversation of, you know, kissing girls? And now listen, we are ending 2025. This has been a crazy year. But what we have not had in the Real Housewife franchise is a real lesbian love relationship. Like not a make out in front of the cameras in a jacuzzi, Not a one time situation like they had in Real Housewives of Atlanta with that guy with his huge boner. I forgot his name. Not where a couple of them hooked up with him. Whatever. No, I'm talking two girls are like, it's you. I'm into just you, you. And I'm not saying it's going to be Bronwyn and Whitney, but I'm just saying it's something that hasn't happened yet. And I feel like 2026 is the year that something like that might happen. When I was in the Groundling, there was this a long time ago there were two girls in the Sunday show that came in straight and went out gay. And I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Also remember when I was talking with Chris Last Thursday about those really funny VHS dating tapes and if they're real or not. And I said, it reminds me of how we were taught to do funny characters for the Groundlings and how you do a backstory and everything. So my girl friend of the show, Emmy award winning comedic actress, the mom on Goldbergs, Wendy McClendon Covey. My friend, she loves to listen to Juicy Scoop, even when she's not on it. And she said. She left me a voice message and she said, heather, you're right. They are all people from the Groundlings. I know them. They're comedic actors. You're completely right. It was the Groundlings people. And I am like, wow. You know, sometimes it's just amazing to be right all the time. It's just sometimes just chilling for everybody involved. Okay, getting. Before we get to our interview, I did want to do a little update for those of you that are subscribed and enjoying Juicy Crimes. Thank you so much. We love doing it. And there's a little update on the Juicy crime from last week. Brian Walshy was convicted of killing his wife who went missing last year. Seen was New Year's Eve two years ago, he was convicted and he got life. So there was a little update there. And before we get into our Scientology episode with Jenna Miscavage, I wanted to say there was a really weird story that came out that Riley Kino, who is the. Let me see. Yes, she would be the granddaughter of Elvis, daughter and granddaughter of Priscilla Presley. And she's a really good actress. She's like 36 or 38. There was some weird lawsuit filed. And within the lawsuit that was like basically like managers suing her for some money thing, it was revealed that she in fact donated her eggs to John Travolta and his now late wife when they had their child, who was now 13, that she's the biological mother of that child. It was so weird to. She has since denied it. I don't even know. I tried to read the articles. I didn't know why that was even brought up. But you know, for a day or so I was like, if this is real, that is so interesting. And if that had anything to do with the Scientology world. When you listen to this interview right now, it's very interesting how they, according to Jenna, who. Who was raised in it, how they see a parental relationships and procreation and all of it. So I hope you have a great Christmas. And during the holiday, we will be dropping fresh and new content and episodes only on Patreon. So make sure that you're part of Patreon. You go to heathermcdonald.net click on Patreon. Join it. Change your life and get ready for the new year. Please welcome my guest now. Thank you. Well, I'm very excited to talk to our guest because Scientology is something that we have been fascinated about, especially on Juicy Scoop for years. And today's my guest really knows everything about it. Welcome Jenna Miscavige. And did I say it wrong again? Miscavige? No, Miscavige.
- [14:28]
B
Miscavige.
- [14:28]
A
Yeah, like Savage Jenna Miscavige, you have shared a lot about your life. You have written a book, and let's just really start from the beginning of this journey that you've had. What was your family's history with the religion?
- [14:50]
B
So both of my parents got into Scientology as kids. Their parents became involved and then so by the time I came along, they were already Scientologists. But there's different levels of Scientology. And so just before I turned 2, they joined Scientology's like most dedicated military esque group called the Sea Organization Sea Org. And it's just basically where people wear military uniforms, they have ranks, and they live communally, they eat communally, and you sign 1 billion year contracts dedicating your soul lifetime after lifetime to Scientology. And you know, there's just like, like you're not allowed to have sex before you're married. You're actually not allowed to have kids that they already had me. And previously you were allowed to have kids in this group, but then shortly after that rule changed. And so you work like a hundred hour weeks with little to no time off. And yeah, basically you're you, you make 50 bucks a week. So you dedicate your whole life, your whole being to this organization.
- [15:58]
A
So when you were two, approximately what year was this?
- [16:03]
B
1986.
- [16:05]
A
So were they on the actual ship, working on the ship, or were they, what were they doing?
- [16:12]
B
So it was not actually a ship, but previously, like the Sea Org was created on an actual ship. They just had moved to land. So that's why it was called the Sea Org. And this was in la.
- [16:24]
A
Oh, so this is all in la. So they didn't want them. They didn't want these people at this level where they're just working, you know, almost like indentured slavery to have kids. Because then, because then someone would have to take care of the kids. That would take away from them dedicating so many work hours. So how did it work? Like where did you guys live and who did take care of you?
- [16:48]
B
So it Was not only that they. That somebody would have to take care of us, but I think it was also seen as a distraction to our parents, like, and also like a. Maybe an alternate place of loyalty, you know, that wasn't just to Scientology, but. So when my parents were at work during the day up until I was six, I would like, go to this nursery where we would just like, I don't know, they would teach us stuff and we would learn like ABCs at first, but we. Our parents would come at first. They would come home for about an hour. Like, we would meet them at the apartment for about an hour and then go back to work, and then they would come home at night. So we only saw them for like an hour a day, really. And then.
- [17:30]
A
And what kind of work were they doing?
- [17:34]
B
So my mom was in a department where she basically, like, there was a cruise ship that Scientology was building where they could do like special Scientology counseling on there. And so she was like, getting the money raised for this from Scientologists. She was literally, like, doing the space plans, the architecture work. She was like, getting that done. In fact, she actually left, like before I was four to go do that. So I was just with my dad, and my dad worked in their computer department where, you know, it was. It's kind of like I T. But it's like their. They have their own internal computer system. So that's where he worked at that time.
- [18:13]
A
And were you an only child?
- [18:15]
B
No. I had a brother. I actually have two brothers, but my one. They were twins and my mom took one brother and the dad took the other brother. It's. It's all fucked up and weird.
- [18:27]
A
Let's talk about hair year is coming up. You want to look great. That is why I love Nutrafol. But I also want to tell you it is a great gift. I gave it to my friend's daughter last year because she was stressed out. She was a teenager trying to figure out where she going to go to college. And she was constantly touching her hair, which added to the thinning. I got her on Nutrafol and her hair and her attitude is a completely different thing because it's thick and fluffy and growing. And Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. So you can see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months this holiday season. Nutrafol is the perfect gift for anyone on your list. Your mom or your aunt going through menopause, a friend who just had a baby and might be experiencing postpartum hair shedding, which happens a lot. Your husband or father who relies on his baseball cap to cover up, or maybe yourself or anyone looking to support their overall health. Give the gift of confidence this holiday season with Nutrafol. Whether you're treating yourself or someone on your list visibly healthier, thicker hair is the gift that keeps on giving. Right now, Nutrafol is offering our juicy scoopers to $10 off your first month subscription plus free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and use promo code juicyscoop that's nutrafol.com promo code juicy scoop for $10 off this message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a Course for Change Want to make real change in your life, career and community? At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W with online programs designed for working professionals. You'll gain hands on skills on real world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Walden University is where working professionals like you get the W, the knowledge, the skills and the confidence to make the changes you want to see in your career and community. With Walden's Tempo Learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules. Just the flexibility to progress toward your degree at your own pace. Available in select programs. Gain practical skills through real world scenarios that prepare you to make a positive impact on others. Learn from Walden's faculty, scholars and practitioners with real world experience to share. 94% of whom hold doctoral degrees. Take the first step. Visit Waldenu. Edu Walden University set a Course for Change Certified to operate by Chevy. Wait, when did that happen? So. So let's. Okay, so now you're like. So when you're. Are you the oldest or younger?
- [21:10]
B
Younger. Yeah, they're eight years older than me.
- [21:13]
A
Okay, so when. So you're born. The boys are. They. They join the weird. So they going. They're not going to regular school. They're going to regular school at 8.
- [21:22]
B
No they're not. Yeah, they're going to like Scientology school place in la. Like not even a school. It's just like. It's like a place where you work and do school a little bit.
- [21:35]
A
So then when did your parents split up?
- [21:38]
B
Oh no, sorry. They're my mom's kids from a previous marriage before I was even born. So my parents. My parents only split up a few years ago.
- [21:50]
A
Oh, well then when you said the twins, one took one into one took. I'm confused then.
- [21:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, I know.
- [21:56]
A
Oh, so you. Oh, so you only had one living with you?
- [21:59]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [22:00]
A
And she never saw the other one?
- [22:02]
B
She did. When we were in la. She did. But it was like his mom and dad were his mom and dad, and my mom and dad were the other one's mom and dad.
- [22:12]
A
And did that. Did the first husband, was he involved in Scientology?
- [22:17]
B
Yes.
- [22:18]
A
Oh, so. So, so they still were Scientologists even though.
- [22:22]
B
Yes, definitely.
- [22:24]
A
And did the boy. So would the brothers, the twins, see each other and play with each other and stuff?
- [22:31]
B
They did when we were in la, but before that, you know, there were several years where they didn't. But yeah, when they're back in la, it was like they were brothers again. And it was like I was like meeting this new brother that I never even knew about.
- [22:46]
A
And were they identical?
- [22:48]
B
No, they don't even look like brothers.
- [22:50]
A
Oh, that is so crazy.
- [22:54]
B
Yeah.
- [22:55]
A
What is their relationship like now to each other?
- [22:59]
B
Yeah, I think they got along great now.
- [23:02]
A
And are they still Scientologists?
- [23:04]
B
No. They're not in Scientology? No.
- [23:06]
A
Okay, so let's.
- [23:07]
B
My immediate family's all out of Scientology.
- [23:09]
A
Okay, so let's go back to. Okay, so now you're a little girl. They're working these crazy hours. You go to this little Scientology school and. Okay, then, then where are we in, in life?
- [23:22]
B
So when I turn six, I go to basically like Hemet in Riverside and I get put at this Scientology boarding school where it's like 15 minutes away from where my parents work. But now I live there. I live in like a dorm with seven other girls. It's connected to a bat, like one bathroom, then seven other girls. And you know, we wear uniforms. We're all divided into like units and we like salute. Like, you know, every morning when we wake up, we go to a muster and it's like unit one report. All present and accounted for, sir. And so basically like 30 hours a week we're doing like manual labor, like grounds work, whether it's rock hauling, gardening, planting trees, painting, all that sort of thing. And then after lunch, we are doing like, we're doing studies, but we don't have grades. It's just like kids who are like 6 years old to 16 years old all in the same classroom. And we're doing these like self led things where we like check off a list. It's called the check sheet. We check off each thing we do. And then in the evening we're doing Scientology studies. So, you know, we're up at 6:30am and then our studies end at 9pm.
- [24:37]
A
You know, I've always really been fascinated about the weird education a bit, because when I've talked to people and stuff, I'm like, you know, as much as we say psychology is, you know, weird and strange, the people that come out of it, whether it's Leah Remini, that's good actress, good writer, you know, good vocabulary, good communicator, they. They're able to have businesses, you know, and it makes.
- [25:05]
B
And.
- [25:06]
A
And work. And it makes you wonder, like, well, is traditional education, like, really that important if you can communicate and read and write? Like, you know, I mean, did you learn Algebr algebra? You know, all the things that we're required to learn in regular school that we do say, do we need algebra? Do we even need to learn a second language with, like, you know, Google Translate and things like that? So I'm kind of like. I do think it's, you know, strange and weird that you didn't have the experience of being a cheerleader or doing a sport. But, like, the education part doesn't seem. Do you. What do you think? Do you think it's like the.
- [25:46]
B
No, I hear what you're saying, and I. And I can totally, like. I totally get it. I. In Scientology, we were very much, like, very literate. Like, we were. We were taught to read a lot and to look up the meanings of words obsessively. The problem really comes when, like, I was isolated from the whole world. Like, I was in this. So I didn't know about, like, civics. I didn't know any of my rights. I.
- [26:12]
A
So, like, no history, you know, like American history or.
- [26:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, everything that Scientology taught me was. Was all I ever had access to.
- [26:23]
A
Right.
- [26:23]
B
So on one hand, yes, very literate. On the other hand, I was like, a weirdo. Yeah. And was afraid of people. And, you know, beyond just the education part of school, I mean, we didn't learn things like science and. And physics or even about our bodies, like what parts do what and that sort of thing. And so, like, later coming out of Scientology, becoming a mom and other things, like, you don't really know anything, so things like that.
- [26:55]
A
Got it.
- [26:56]
B
Especially when you're taught that you're not a body. You're. You're a spiritual being, and your body is like a piece of meat that you basically, when that body dies, you're going to get a new one. So it's all sort of like, part of devaluing who you are as, like, a person and taking care of yourself. And so it's it winds up being okay if you work as a slave for hundreds of hours because you don't really know anything about yourself or the world.
- [27:20]
A
Yes, you guys could read it, right? You're good communicators. But that because they wanted you to live this world of this is all there is. Then they. You didn't really know about American history or science or anything, which that is so crazy.
- [27:39]
B
Or civics. Like I didn't know anything about our government or my rights. You know, I didn't, I didn't know like, you know, what was a wrong way to be treated, what was the right way. Because remember at the same time it's not like we're living in a home with our parents. So it's not like we're getting that information from anywhere else. We're, we're at this ranch seven days a week. Well, one day we do go to our parents apartment and you know, they come home at midnight and then we're leaving their apartment again by like 11am the next morning.
- [28:09]
A
Did you feel like you even like had a mom or knew who she was or anything?
- [28:15]
B
I did, but I constantly missed my parents. Like I constantly was, especially when I was younger. Later on I just kind of got used to it. I think that when you live a life with your mom and your dad and then it gets taken away, it's a lot different than when you just don't have them around. I think that you know what you're missing when that happens. And it's a lot sadder where I think that in my case I just didn't have it. So it sucked. I felt this like yearning and I wanted to be with them. And my goal was if I finished all my studies at this boarding school then I could work at the base with them. And so that was always my goal was to get to the base so I could see them every day. So yeah, I definitely miss them. And I felt like I knew them just as much as I knew anybody, anybody else really.
- [29:08]
A
And so do you guys like have celebrate like Thanksgiving or Christmas or anything like that.
- [29:15]
B
So like on Thanksgiving we would have like a little bit longer of a meal at the, at the boarding school and that was pretty much it. At Christmas we would do a little bit more. Like we would go to the base where our parents were and there would be like a show and then we would usually have one day off. That was when I was a kid. Later on like it would be like Christmas would get canceled because like everyone was in trouble, nobody was doing good Enough. But, yeah, when I was a kid, we did have Christmas. We would have, like, a day off.
- [29:45]
A
Together, so Christmas would be canceled. You mean at the boarding school or whatever?
- [29:50]
B
Well, I left the boarding school when I was 12, so it would be past when I was 12, when I was, like, a regular Scientology worker, from when I was 12 until I was 22. And that's kind of the time when Christmas would get canceled.
- [30:03]
A
And so did you even know what Christmas was celebrating? Like, did you understand what Christianity was or.
- [30:10]
B
I knew it was a religion, but I mostly thought of it like Christmas was just a celebration that we got. And I was like, do not be questioning this. You take what you get. This is the highlight of your year.
- [30:23]
A
Yeah. Oh, my God. And so. So now you're 12, and now you don't. Now you're just, like, working. And what's your job at 12?
- [30:35]
B
So when I'm 12, I get sent to Clearwater, Florida, and I have, like, a few jobs. So part of the time, I'm just doing Scientology studies all the time. Like, I'm learning even how to use their, like, E meter. I don't know if you've seen.
- [30:49]
A
Oh, yeah, that's, like, looking thing.
- [30:52]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I have one somewhere around here. Yeah. So I'm, like, learning how to do that.
- [30:58]
A
And what is that, really? Is it just. I mean, it's. Is it just like. Yeah, you're somehow. It just tied up to your nerves. And so if you get nervous, like a lie detector, you could say you're not telling the truth to somebody or what.
- [31:11]
B
So basically, it sends, like, the tiniest current. Like, you're holding two cans. So, like, and the cans are attached to the emitter, so it sends a current, like, through your body, out through the other hand, back into the E meter. And it just. If there's a. If there's an interruption in this current, whether it's from body movement or you getting tense or something, it shows up on the E meter dial. And that's just. They're interpreting it to mean that.
- [31:37]
A
That.
- [31:37]
B
That E meter reaction, that needle reaction, is from your mind. They believe that your mind influences the current that's going through your body. And so when they ask a question and it influences the current, they're like, ah, we've got you. What are you thinking about?
- [31:53]
A
So, like, at this time, like, I just. I remember seeing the Dianetics commercials everywhere. One billion books sold, and I. And it was like Earth exploding. And as a little kid, I first thought it was a diet book. Dianetics, like, a Diet book. And then I was always just like, yeah, what is this? You know, it was just like, oh, how people, like, create such a better life for themselves. And, you know, now that we've learned more, it's like that. That whole. What was that book? It was just. It was just a history of Scientology and how to make your life better. And. And did they. They really didn't sell a billion books, Right?
- [32:34]
B
Well, when they forced Scientologists to buy them over and over again. Okay, so. And also. Or when they just, like, give them away or. Because they have their own printing presses, they can. So I think they say that's how many are printed. So they have their own printing presses. They can print however many books they want to. Right. But Scientology, actually. I mean. Sorry, Dianetics was before Scientology existed. And it was basically about how certain illnesses or certain bad things you had going fears or whatever. It basically taught people that it was because of painful incidents that had happened in the past, specifically things that were said during those painful moments of unconsciousness, and that those past things were controlling were making you sick now. But basically, Dianetics then turned into Scientology when. When basically they would have people recall these moments of pain and unconsciousness, and then they would recall things from a past life. So. So then it became you were a spirit, because if you had a past life, you had to have, you know, you had to be a spiritual being. And then that's where it sort of go. Started going into religion and psychology, then grew from there into what it is now. So. So Dianetics is like, their book one. That's what they call it.
- [33:57]
A
And so how is David, your uncle?
- [34:02]
B
He's my dad's brother.
- [34:04]
A
Okay, and how. So tell me how that came where he. He got to be the head of the church.
- [34:13]
B
So I was really little when this all happened, like two, so I wasn't any part of it. But from what I understand, L. Ron Hubbard died, and there was a dude who was, like, working with him, a couple, and they were sort of all, like, set to be in charge. And my uncle, like, outmaneuvered them and, like, tricked people, and he became the boss because he went for it pretty much. I don't know. I don't know.
- [34:39]
A
But then did that also elevate your dad's position, being that they're brothers?
- [34:46]
B
Well, my dad had only just come back into Scientology at that time. Like, he had grown up in it, but he came back into the sea work. So, yeah, I guess at that point, like, my dad did become a senior executive, so did my Mom. But. And so, yes, it was, but it wasn't like an automatic promotion. Like in Scientology, they don't really care about your family. They think that you're all spiritual beings. So it wasn't an automatic promotion. It was also like they were the people who had grown up with and worked with my uncle. So it's almost like he's putting his confidants or friends or like high school buddies in charge as well.
- [35:25]
A
And. Okay, so now you're like 12 working and all that. And were you. What was your relationship with like. So you're in near like the. The LA Hollywood scene when that starts to kind of become more popular like in the 90s and stuff with like a Christie Alley and John Travolta. Christie Alley? Yeah, Christie Alley, John Travolta. All those. Jenna Elfman, like all those people. Where are you in that world? You're still in Florida and they're here or what's happening?
- [36:02]
B
Yeah, so I was in Florida and those people are mostly in la, but there actually are. So in Florida and Clearwater, Florida, there's Scientology's biggest base. People go there to get the highest level of Scientology training and counseling. So I often saw Jenna Elfman, Kirstie Alley, John Travolta there as well. But they were sort of going back and forth because in la, there's the celebrity center, right?
- [36:28]
A
When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people really love. Beautiful, timeless pieces that they'll wear for years. That's why I am going with quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. You guys know I have loved quince for years because every piece is made with not only premium materials, but made from ethical, trusted factories and priced far below what other luxury brands charge. And the craftsmanship really shows in every detail. The stitching, the fit, the drape. I absolutely love my quince silk blouses and their cashmere sweaters. I got a beautiful long silk skirt that looks just so great with boots. Fine gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quints. But go to quince.com jucy for free shipping on your order. And 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com juicy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com juicy this message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a course for change. Wanna make real change in your life, career, and community. At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W with online program designed for working professionals. You'll gain hands on skills to take on real world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Walden University is where working professionals like you get the W, the knowledge, the skills and the confidence to make the changes you want to see in your career and community. With Walden's Tempo Learning, you're in control. No set weekly deadlines, no rigid schedules, just the flexibility to progress toward your degree at your own pace. Available in select programs. Gain practical skills through real world scenarios that prepare you to make a positive impact on others. Learn from Walden's faculty, scholars and practitioners with real world experience to share. 94% of whom hold doctoral degrees. Take the first step. Visit Waldenu. Edu Walden University set a Course for Change Certified to operate by Chevrolet this.
- [38:50]
B
Podcast is sponsored by Amazon Prime. The holidays can sneak up on you. You know, work parties, family gatherings, last minute gifts. That's why Amazon prime is a real lifesaver. This season with Prime's fast free shipping, last minute gifting is no stress. Forget a present for a friend or family member. Needs something for tonight's holiday party, prime gets it to you fast, turning holiday panic into a smooth win. I love Amazon Prime. I Prime every day. You know, prime isn't just about speed. It's your secret weapon for making sure you never miss a moment that matters.
- [39:19]
A
Wow.
- [39:20]
B
Red band. That is so touching. This season you can count on prime to deliver fast during the holidays. Just when you need it most, last minute gifts delivered, it's on prime.
- [39:31]
A
And and then like so what were you guys told like of the outlet? Like how do you think now that this was ever even allowed that kids would be able to not go to school and not work? But I guess because it's almost like a Catholic school, like because it's a religion and it's non pro, you know, like a non profit religion, whatever it is, or it is a profit religion. I don't know. The fact that religion is not regulated for taxes. So they were able to do that and they were able to have their own schools and no one was checking on the kids, right?
- [40:08]
B
Like they're able to sit like in a private state school. You basically there's no oversight on the curriculum. There's very few requirements. So they could say even when we were doing Scientology studies that that's our schooling. When in fact we did go to a like place that where we did regular schooling one day A week. But that was it. And again, it wasn't regular schooling. It was, there were no grades. We were on the check sheets again, so self led. But, but we did like that was some educational thing that we did. But yeah, there was just no oversight. Like none of us got diplomas and.
- [40:47]
A
Were you ever like part of like the recruiting side of like getting people to join?
- [40:53]
B
No, I wasn't.
- [40:54]
A
And so, so then, okay, so now you're like your teen years are spent there. You're, you're, are you in the same, Are your parents still in la? Are you?
- [41:05]
B
My parents are back in Riverside, in Hemet. So the whole time from when I'm 12 until I'm 16, I pretty much like I see them once or twice and that's it. In fact, I'm forbidden to call them by my aunt Shelly Miscavige, because like I said before, like they kind of consider the, the child parent relationship like a distraction, especially if you're a member of their most dedicated group. So it's seen as you like putting over importance on the family instead of the group. And so I, I wasn't allowed to call them and in fact several times when I tried, I was physically restrained from doing so.
- [41:45]
A
They were just like, you mean you try to grab the phone and they would like say no.
- [41:50]
B
They would say no and then I would try to grab the phone again and then one person would grab each arm and a leg and I would be like fighting to get to the phone and, and they wouldn't let me.
- [42:02]
A
And so then at 16, where do you go off to?
- [42:06]
B
So at 16, out of nowhere, when I was still in Clearwater, I was picked out of my day and I started getting these interrogations on the E meter for like nine hours a day. And it was from this like really important boss lady who was terrifying and you know, she was asking me all sorts of weird questions like, um, you know, do you have evil intentions against your uncle? All. All of this stuff. And then they basically had me be in a room all day when I wasn't getting these interrogations where I was supposed to like listen to these lectures. And then when I wasn't doing that, I had to scrub the bathroom and somebody would be watching me all the time in case I tried to escape. So there was someone with me at all time. I had no idea why. And basically after like a month or more of this, and also by the way, someone would sit outside my door while I was sleeping to make sure I didn't escape. I didn't even have anyone to call if I wanted to escape. I was terrified of the outside world. I wasn't going anywhere.
- [43:07]
A
Right.
- [43:09]
B
But then they brought me to la. They told me that my parents had left the most dedicated group, that they were now living in Mexico, and they wanted them to go to Mexico because they didn't want the press to. To get a hold of the story that they had left. And so they had set them up there and then that they wanted me to go with them.
- [43:30]
A
And so they had left the religion.
- [43:33]
B
Yes.
- [43:34]
A
But you had no idea because you weren't communicating with them.
- [43:37]
B
Yes, I had no idea. Exactly. Yeah. So two dudes were, like, telling me this after I got flown to la, and they were like, your parents are gone.
- [43:47]
A
And so then. So then do you reconnect in Mexico?
- [43:51]
B
Nope. I said, well, I barely know these people now. I've been away from them my whole life. I have all of these friends that I've made this whole. Like, all these people that I care about. Yeah, that's my world now. And I've already been ripped away from my world previously in California to go to Florida, and now you're trying to rip me away from it. Also in Scientology, they teach you that if you go to. Well, I was way behind in school, so the idea of me going to a regular school was terrifying.
- [44:22]
A
Right.
- [44:22]
B
But not only that. They teach you in Scientology. Like, in Scientology, the big enemies are the psychs, the psychiatrists, and they teach you that they, like, drug you and they, like, lobotomize you and stuff. And so I was like, I ain't going to a regular school where they're going to lobotomize me and, like, whatever. So the whole thing, like, I was afraid of the outside world. I had, like, no contact with people who weren't Scientologists at all. Yeah, we called. We called non Scientologist wogs, and it was like Muggles. So it was like. Yeah, I was. And we were. We were like. I was always told that we had to tell them a certain story. Like, I was a student, and I never understood why we had to lie. So I was just afraid of them. And so going into the outside world with my parents, who at this point, I had spent no time with, leaving everyone behind to a school where I was essentially going to get drugged and lobotomized. I was like, hell, no, I'm staying here. And.
- [45:20]
A
And when. Why did your parents leave? Do you ever connect with them? And did they tell you what. What was their reason for finally getting out?
- [45:29]
B
Yeah, for sure. I Mean, the things that were going on at the base where they were at. I mean, my Uncle Dave was beating people. He was, like, keeping people in a trailer, making them sleep overnight on the floor, making people stand in trash cans while people threw stuff at them. And, like, yeah, just regular beatings and psychological torture. And they were just like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm out. This is. This is insane. And so they decided to leave.
- [46:03]
A
And then when they went to Mexico, I mean, did they have, like that? That's why I always think of when you. When you defect it, then you have. How do you even start, like, a career or a business?
- [46:16]
B
Right. That's what's really hard when you don't have an education. First of all, you don't have any connections outside of Scientology, because everyone, you know is in Scientology. I mean, being on Mexico is another level. But I guess maybe it's easier if you're, like, white in Mexico and American. But they basically sold timeshares at that time. Yeah. And then they eventually moved back to the. To the US and got their real estate license. I mean, all of these things, when you leave Scientology, you lose those connections. No education, etc. Those are all setbacks. But one thing you're used to doing in Scientology is working your ass off, right? Like. Like, nobody. Nobody else in the world. So usually people who leave Scientology in this way, in this group, are very hard workers. But that being said, like, you kind of maybe burn out at some point if you've been working since you're six years old.
- [47:08]
A
So. So. So now you're 16, you're back in LA, you have no relationship with your parents. They are, you know, seen as the enemy. Then what is going on with you? Like, where are you living then?
- [47:21]
B
So I'm living on Hollywood Boulevard. I don't know if you see that information center or their testing center where. Yeah, people, sort of. That's where I lived, on the top floor.
- [47:31]
A
Okay.
- [47:32]
B
And yeah, that was after about another. Like, basically. So now I wasn't allowed to answer the phone at all. I wasn't allowed to receive any letters from my parents or anything like that. And, yeah, I worked there. I mean, I wound up leaving when I was 22. But. But things just gradually became worse and worse. And one of the big things that happened is that I had sex before I was married. And that if you do that, you basically get assigned. Well, normally you get assigned to what they call the Rehabilitation Project Force, which is basically a program where you are all black. You're not allowed to speak unless spoken to, you have to run everywhere you go. You're basically ostracized, and you do heavy manual labor all day, and you do five hours of interrogation, like, basically confessions. And people stay on this program for, like, nine years sometimes. So normally.
- [48:30]
A
And what about the guy that you had sex with? Was he also banished to this group?
- [48:34]
B
Well, I didn't. So what happened is that I wanted to get married, but they wouldn't let me because they were afraid that my parents were gonna, like, try to, like, meet with this person's family. It was just all paranoia. They were going to meet with this person's family, and they were going to conspire to take down Scientology. And so they wouldn't let me get married. And so that's when I wound up. We wound up sleeping together before we got married, but because it was kind of their fault and because I was kind of really bitchy, they didn't assign me to the program.
- [49:04]
A
But now where. Where are you guys finding time to be intimate? Are you, like, still living in this dormitory type life, or do you have, like, your own apartment?
- [49:13]
B
We don't have our own apartment. No. It was literally, like, there was a. An empty room, and we went in there, and. And there's no time. Like, you get home at, like, midnight, literally. And then it's like you hold hands in the hallway, and then everyone's, like, giving you the side eye and, like, being, like, don't touch each other. Don't. And if you, like, even look at somebody long enough straight in the eyes, like, 20 people will write reports on you, because in Scientology, they have this culture where you have to write reports on each other.
- [49:42]
A
So still at, like, 22, are you able to, like, go with your boyfriend and, like, walk on Hollywood Boulevard and go get lunch somewhere?
- [49:51]
B
So. So this is even before I was 18. Okay. No. Well, one day a week, you are. One day a week, we were allowed to go, like, down the street to Combos and get pizza. But on a regular day, absolutely not. You cannot leave the building. There's a guard there the entire time, so you have to, like, have his permission to leave and that sort of thing. Now, I did walk home frequently because I. The. The building I worked in was on Hollywood and Ivar, so it was just a few blocks down. So we would walk home or take a van home, but it wasn't like. Like, it was at midnight. It wasn't like, any sort of free for all or free time or anything.
- [50:30]
A
And then what about, like, those big Scientology, like, events at Night. Like those big fancy things that they'd have, that we've seen videos. Would you be, like, working those or seeing the stars or what? What about those?
- [50:43]
B
Yeah, so those happen. Scientology has, like, five or six regular events that they do throughout the year. They're not always at the shrine in la. They're sometimes in different places. But basically, at every one of those events, they come out with a new book. Like, for instance, they'll come out with a new edition of Dynetics that has, like, a different sticker on the front or something like that. And then basically, it's our job as staff to basically force the Scientology parishioners to buy these things and. And essentially stay up all night until we make our quota. And so we. Our script would be to go to each person and be like, cash or credit and like, try to basically make everyone buy whatever is being, whatever new course is being is coming out or is being announced at this event.
- [51:31]
A
And so. Okay, so then. So when do you start to go? This isn't for me. Like, how. When did you leave?
- [51:39]
B
I think the first time I ever started thinking this wasn't for me when I. Is when I was probably like, 16. But it is sort of a building up. But one of the main things that happened is that when I was 21, I believe maybe 20, me and my then husband, because we got married when I was 18, and none of our family was there or anything, it was just kind of crazy. But we got sent to a mission, on a mission to Australia in order to help a local Scientology church get a new building to. To work, work out of and to, like, raise money for it, etc, and it was, you know, when we were there, it was the first time I was in the regular world. Like, we had an apartment and we dealt with, like, realtors and we. And one of the ladies who was on staff there, it wasn't like this. It wasn't the most dedicated group. So, like, she had kids, and we would kind of, like, hang out with her little daughter who was two years old. She was really cute, and we would, like, go grocery shopping. We would make our own food. And I had never experienced this in my life. So all of the people who I once thought were terrifying and the outside world, which I thought was, like, horrible and full of drugs and whatnot, I kind of learned that it wasn't. Wasn't really true. It was all just, like, kind of made up. In fact, half the people who I met didn't even know what Scientology was because we were always taught that Scientology was, like, taking over the world, and everybody loved it, and it was, like, so big. And that's what we get told at these events.
- [53:16]
A
Oh, wow.
- [53:18]
B
Yeah.
- [53:19]
A
So you never, like, watched TV or, like, did you. So you didn't. So you didn't even see, like, the celebrities that were in it on their shows or anything? So you were not. There's no way to be, like, starstruck even?
- [53:33]
B
Well, like, we. If there was a Tom Cruise and John Travolta movie, like, they would play that at, like, Christmas or other things. But, yeah, I didn't grow up watching TV at all. So actually, when I was in Australia was, like, the first time we would, like, watch tv. Like, we would watch Big Brother or, like, Australian Idol or whatever.
- [53:52]
A
Yeah. Okay, so then. So then what happens in Australia? Do you start thinking, I think there's more to this life, or.
- [54:02]
B
Yeah, I think a big part of it for me was, like, the little girl, because we weren't allowed to have kids. And my husband at the time, he really wanted to have kids, and he always thought the rule would change, which was stupid.
- [54:15]
A
So is the rule. Is the stories true about how they would do forced abortions and stuff?
- [54:20]
B
Yes, it's true. Yeah. I never had that when I was in Scientology because I never got pregnant. But, yeah, it would be. Like, people in the group that I was in, it's not like they're holding you down and forcing you to do an abortion, but they're like, yeah, the right thing for you to do is get an abortion, otherwise you're going to betray the group and leave. And so people would have to, like, be put through, like, you know, different steps that they would have to do to. To decide what's for the greatest good for the world and just be, like, pressured and, like, ostracized if they didn't do that. And so, yeah, it's absolutely true.
- [54:58]
A
So you see this little girl, and you're like, I do think I want to be a mom. Is that what was happening?
- [55:04]
B
Kind of, yeah. She was just, like, so funny and so cute, and we would just hang out, and I was like. I was like, maybe I really am missing out on something that I never thought. And it was also the first time that I had kind of my own space. Like, I was always surrounded, you know, by everybody all the time. We ate in big mess halls. I lived in dorms. And it was the first time that I even had, like, privacy to think my own thoughts without being, like, inspected upon every day. And then we went back, and then it really put everything in stark contrast. Like, it. Like, we had a little freedom, and then we got back, and it was, like, even worse. Like, they were just treating people more and more horribly. People were expected to work through the night, like, nearly every single night to get to finish projects that, like, just wound up having to be redone. It just, you know, they were just doing little things to take things away from people that they didn't have to. And I always thought, like, you know, I'd always believed in giving up certain things in order to maybe have to sacrifice in order to make the world a better place. But some of the things that they were forcing people to give up were just because of humiliation and cruelty, and I couldn't unsee that anymore. It became a point where I was like, yeah, I'm not helping people if everybody who I care about is being treated, like, in front of my face, like, we're not helping anybody. And I was like, yeah, I can't. I can't do this anymore.
- [56:38]
A
And so then what. What. How old are you? Then when you said, that's it, and how do I get out of this?
- [56:44]
B
I was 22, almost 21. So I wound up saying that I wanted to leave. They tried to, like, placate me in many different ways. I was like, nope, I'm leaving. They basically try to make you get an interrogation before you leave, because if you don't get it, then you basically are what they call declared a suppressive person, which means that no Scientologist can ever talk to you again. You're, like, the enemy. And I was to a point where I had had so many of these interrogations, like, even where I tried to get out of the room, and they, like, chase me down Hollywood Boulevard, chase me down the stairs, physically restrained me, wouldn't let me out. And I was like, I'm not doing it. Like, at this point, I didn't even really believe in Scientology itself anymore. So I. So do you go doing it?
- [57:34]
A
And did you get to the level of where you found out that. About the spaceships and the aliens and stuff?
- [57:41]
B
No, I found that out. After they teach you in Scientology that if you learn about that before it's your time, then you'll basically die. So, like, they literally tell you that you'll get, like, pneumonia and die. So even long after I left Scientology, when I. When I was, like, watching the south park episode, I was like, I. I tested it on my husband first. I was like, let's see. If you die, if you live, then I'll watch it.
- [58:09]
A
And yeah, like, and then you always think about, like, the person that gets that level. Are they like, are you kidding me? Like, this is the story.
- [58:18]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so like, I could see somebody who's like, you know, who's like, maybe like you if you were in Scientology. Like, because not all Scientologists work in the dedicated group that I did.
- [58:31]
A
Right.
- [58:31]
B
Grew up in the way I did. So, like, if I was in the regular world and I heard that, I'd be like, what the.
- [58:39]
A
Right, Right.
- [58:40]
B
I was already just like a brainwashed weirdo the entire time I was there. So I probably would have been like, oh, cool.
- [58:47]
A
Wow. So when people say the reason, like, you know, Tom Cruise and so. And, you know, and John Travolta got in it and stayed in it so long, you know, some people feel it's because they like, you were like kind of brainwashed in that, you know, all your success and everything is because you're a Scientologist. The other part is in one of those weird truth telling, holding the two cans that maybe at that time they revealed some deviant behavior or even homosexual behavior. And they use that as blackmail to be like, if you ever leave, we'll tell, we'll tell. And at, you know, now it doesn't matter. But 20, 30 years ago, being gay when you're playing this like, macho guy could have really hurt your career. What do you think is the deal with those level of stars that are still in it?
- [59:40]
B
I mean, I think it's a combination of all of them. I think it is a matter of blackmail at some point, even if it's not being outright said. They know what Scientology does to people who speak out about them. And I also think that they've been in Scientology for so long at this point that all of their connections, all of the people who work for them, all of their. All of everybody is in Scientology. So they stand so much to lose all of their friends. Now they have other friends. I'm sure it's. It's not like how it was for me, but I think that's a big loss for them. And I think that Scientology really appeals to the ego of maybe like insecure actors or whatever. And it really, like, it can make you feel really empowered, especially when, you know, you're just going there and paying for it and getting treated like a king or a queen, which is very different than, you know, the experience that I'm having. I'm one of the people who are serving those people or.
- [60:41]
A
Right.
- [60:42]
B
Carrying their folders or who you Know, are cut out. So. So I honestly. So part of me is like, I can understand why someone like me stays. I can understand why someone like them stays, but I really think it's extremely up that they're living this life in their mansion and, you know, have millions of dollars and are getting basically taken care of by kids who are my age who are running their courses on them, who are running their counseling, and they see all this and they hear the stories in the media, and they just say, oh, it's all, well, it must be nice to experience Scientology in that way. But I've met many of those celebrities. I've seen them around. When I was. When I was in Clearwater, Florida, there was tons of kids like me running around. So they know that it's true. They just don't care. It's just inconvenient for them.
- [61:40]
A
And what do you think happened with Tom? And so with. First, his first marriage or second marriage was with Nicole Kidman, and they adopted two kids, and then they break up, and she never has any. Never sees those kids again.
- [61:55]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [61:55]
A
What do you think happened in that situation?
- [61:59]
B
So I remember speaking to my aunt Shelly Miscavige, at the time when, like, Tom Cruise was getting back into Scientology, and she basically told me that that Nicole Kidman, her dad, was like, a psych, a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
- [62:11]
A
Yeah.
- [62:12]
B
Which is like the devil in Scientology. So basically because of that, and Nicole wasn't, like, as much into Scientology like Tom was. She was seen as somebody who was, like, badly influencing him and was keeping him away from his full potential in Scientology. And so she was, like, sort of, like, bad news. So it's my understanding that Scientology basically orchestrated him seeing her as the devil and them splitting up, and then that's when he, like, went full on into Scientology.
- [62:43]
A
And do you think in her case, you know, the kids were adopted, but she, you know, was with the kids in the beginning. I. I just wonder if she just couldn't fight it, like, between being an actress, him, the being adopted. I don't know what. Why she forgot just for went or whatever you call it for she. That's not a word. But, like, hey, that she just went. That she just gave up.
- [63:12]
B
Yeah.
- [63:12]
A
Like, okay, I'll marry someone else and have, you know, the kids with. With Keith Urban. And, like, she never saw those kids again. Do you just think it was just too overwhelming, the power?
- [63:24]
B
No, I. I don't think it was for lack of trying. Like, I believe that's what I'm saying.
- [63:28]
A
Yeah.
- [63:28]
B
Very hard. But the kids were essentially brainwashed and had been in Scientology for many years. And so there comes a point, like, even when my parents were out of Scientology and I was still in, if they had said one bad word about Scientology, I never would have spoken to them. So you have to, like. You have to, like. There's like, this line that you have to, like, make it clear that you're there for them no matter what, and you love them, and you have to be a nice person so that when they're ready, they will come to you, but you can't force the issue. And so, honestly, I. That's what I believe that she was doing.
- [64:05]
A
And so then he gets with, you know, Katie Holmes, and they have Suri, and then they. They break up. And from everything that we've read, he has never seen Suri, really.
- [64:18]
B
Right.
- [64:19]
A
And now she's like, 19 or something. And so what do you think happened there? Do you think that. That, you know, she realized, oh, shit, you know, I'm not going to lose my daughter? This is what I think. I think maybe, like anybody that gets married, you fall in love, you realize, like, this isn't really this Tom Cruise that I had a crush on because I had the poster in my room is different now. And now that I have a mother, that is the most important relationship to me. And I think maybe she felt if she doesn't divorce him now, the kid will be sucked into the Scientology world, and then. Then she'll never regain that power as the mom. So.
- [64:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [65:01]
A
And then I almost wonder, like, I wonder if Tom didn't seek trying to see Surrey because of that whole idea of children. Like, maybe he was like, this. Isn't that any. This relationship with her? I don't know.
- [65:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, basically, once Katie would have pulled that maneuver and, like, divorcing him, and it looks bad on him publicly, and it looks like it's because of Scientology, she would have then been considered a suppressive person and, like, you know, as having sort of done something to prove Scientology is psychotic so publicly. And so in. If somebody is a suppressive person, you can't even be connected to them through a child. You have to disconnect to anyone who is connected to them. So. So because Katie is her mom and is not going to let go of custody, I actually believe that he signed over soul custody as a sacrifice he would do for Scientology and for not being connected to a suppressive person, which is her mom.
- [66:06]
A
And then what if about the mystery of your Aunt Shelly and where she's been for the last 15 years, whatever it's been.
- [66:16]
B
Right. I mean, it's a little bit. It's a little bit. Well, I don't personally believe that Shelly was ever missing. Like, she was reported missing, but she. By somebody, like, several. Like, maybe six years after they last saw her. Shelley wasn't somebody who spoke at Scientology events. She wasn't necessarily a public person. She was somebody who maybe was. Would have, like, had been at a party with Leah Remini. Yeah. And. But it's not like, like, everybody there is in a cult. So you can't really say that they're missing if they're not somebody who you're expected to see every day. So I understand Leah being like, well, they wouldn't answer my question. Where is she? And that's weird. But also, Leah doesn't necessarily have a right to know where she is. And Scientology, who at this point hates Leah Remy, isn't exactly going to be like, you know, breaking their backs to answer her questions.
- [67:13]
A
I always remember, like, her being like, okay, so she takes JLO to the Tom Cruise wedding, and they put JLO at a different table, and they didn't want her at that table. And then she's like, where's Shelly? And I feel like there's something in that story that, like, switched her to this to be, like, pissed on in a few levels. Like, oh, you think my best friend JLo is a bigger star than me? You're trying to recruit her and you're. And I'm being seen as the less famous person. So that probably pissed off her ego.
- [67:46]
B
And then.
- [67:48]
A
And then that's kind of. I think then when she just, like, really turned. Because I always tell when I was doing Chelsea lately, she was friends with Chelsea, and we would. Had some jokes about Scientology back then, before it was even like, you. Back then, anyhow, that. Before we even talked about. And we did something where we, like, did something about Scientology and we, like, Photoshopped, like, an alien, like, working at the office, like, with a copy machine or something. And then the next day, she said she heard from Leah, who was like, hey, Chelsea, can you lay off of the jokes? And so then Chelsea's like, we can't do this anymore. And then there was something else that happened, and I was like, wait a minute. And I, like, figured out that whatever Leah Remini was doing, she was either traveling or something. And I was like, chelsea, there's no way she could have watched the show. And I'm like, I think they have Scientology people that are assigned to our show. And she is the vessel that, you know, so. And you know that eventually she got out, and it's all fine, but it's just like, when she was doing all that stuff, I'm like, I hope she knows what, like, a bully she was, you know, and getting people to shut up and everything for all those years and. But at least she's, you know, at least she's sharing the truth now, right?
- [69:12]
B
Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, that's what. That's the kind of thing that they use celebrities for, you know, for influence, whether it's in a TV show or having them go speak to Congress to get certain Scientology programs into schools, things like that. That's what. That's why they treat them so well. But, yeah, I believe that after Leah got pissed off about not sitting next to JLO and asking where Shelly is, they actually punished her after for, like, quite a bit of time where they forced her to do interrogations, and then that's when she went. Wound up leaving.
- [69:45]
A
I mean, she had to be questioned by them, like, do certain hours.
- [69:49]
B
Yeah, yes, exactly. So similar to what they're always trying to do to me. Yeah. She probably hadn't experienced it on that level at that time. So that was, like, more of her first taste of that, where I had been, like, experiencing that since I was a kid.
- [70:02]
A
Right.
- [70:03]
B
You know, so I guess sometimes just when something doesn't and, like, when it's happening to someone else, you know, it's. You don't really feel it until it's happening to you.
- [70:11]
A
Absolutely. That's so true about so many things, or someone that's a horrible person to a lot of people, even if it's not to the level of, like, you know, what you dealt with. What. And then people are like, well, he was nice to me. I don't. I mean, I don't know. I. I don't know the story. And you're like, but I told you the story. Like, you know, like. And then when it does happen to you, you're. You look back and you're like, oh, well, yeah, I was enjoying it, too, when it wasn't. When I wasn't really, really willing to face it. I know that you wrote a book and tell everybody where they can find that and follow you, because you're doing a lot of videos and doing a lot of interesting things. You're continuing to expose it. And in your exposure and writing of the book, has the backlash ever been, you know, super terrifying or. Or something would have made you stop?
- [71:05]
B
I mean, just crazy things, like being followed by PIs having certain people being inserted into my ex husband and my life to sort of spy on us. But I do think that I get the better like other people, they really, really go after. I think that I have the benefit of having my last name be Miscavige and that they would be the first people that anybody would suspect if something happened to me. So I think that they, like, kind of maybe chill a little bit, but it's still like, you know, they still went out of their way to try to destroy my family after we left Scientology and my marriage. So. Yeah. But my book is called Beyond Belief, My Secret Life inside Scientology and my heroin Escape. And you can buy it on Amazon. My YouTube channel is Jenna Miss Scavage. My TikTok is Jenna Miss Scavage. My Instagram is the real Jenna Miss Scavage because somebody stole the Genimus cabbage name. So.
- [72:01]
A
And when. When Leah was doing her show, were you approached by them at any point doing anything with that show?
- [72:10]
B
I was approached at that time. And I just. There's a few things going on. Like, I was raising my kids and then also, like, you know, the guy that was involved, he had been a really big part of sort of trying to ruin my life.
- [72:24]
A
Mike. Mike Rinder.
- [72:26]
B
Rinder. Yeah. Yeah. And so I. Yeah, I didn't. I don't know, I felt like we. I never, like, really got an apology from him, and it was just like. Yeah. I mean, I think they did a great job in the show. Like, I think that they told so many people's stories and such an important way. So, like, when I look back at it now, I'm like, wow, they did. They did really did a great job and they really got the word out there. But at the time, that's kind of what I was thinking.
- [72:55]
A
Are you surprised that it's still. That people are. I can see why people are still in it, but I'm, like, shocked that anybody would join it. New. With everything that's out there now, how could someone join? Do you think they're getting any new people?
- [73:09]
B
I do think they are, but yes. I mean, many people who are. Their parents, like, are in and then their kids are getting in. So I think that's a big part of it. But I mean, they get. They get to people in sneaky ways. They have all these front groups. They have like, narcanon, Criminal Citizens Commission on Human Rights, all of these organizations that are really Scientology, but they get people, like, without them knowing that's what it is, or even whole business programs, people get recruited through business, but it's called World Institute of Scientology Enterprises. So it's just like, there's so many little scams going on where they get people.
- [73:47]
A
Yeah, I came across some weird, like, you know, TikTok video of like, people being interviewed in a show that kind of was trying to look like Vice or something, you know, that shows like a documentary. And it was just these no name people then saying that like, oh, Leah Remini was, you know, horrible on set, and she was so mean. And I started to look it up and then they talk about this other guy, and I go, who's this other guy? And I look him up and they're all ex Scientologists that they're attacking. And I'm like, well, this is just. They're just trying to make it look like a show. So then you come across it and you. You don't really do the research and you're like, oh, Leah Remini is like a. On set or whatever. You know, just like you hear about anybody telling on celebrities, you know, just to completely still, you know, trash their name.
- [74:34]
B
Yeah, they do these production quality videos and they just get people to come on and absolutely trash ex Scientologist. And the sad thing, it's usually like their family members or it's usually like their ex, like best friends. And it's like, you know, not only that is a horrible thing to do to somebody, like, publicly, but it's also like it sort of discourages you from speaking out. It discourages many people from speaking out.
- [75:00]
A
And so are you connected with your parents now?
- [75:06]
B
I do. I am connected with them. Like they're out of Scientology, but, you know, it has been a little bit up and down and whatever. Like, unfortunately, once you leave Scientology, not everything goes away. You know, you don't just, like, miraculously get your whole childhood back.
- [75:22]
A
Right.
- [75:23]
B
You're fine. So it's had good moments and it's had bad moments. And I just kind of think that it's like something that you work through and deal with for the rest of your life. Pretty much, yeah.
- [75:36]
A
Well, this has been so interesting. I'm really glad that we got to connect again and. And hear about it, because it's been a minute. I feel like, you know, people. It was such a big hot topic, and then it's kind of like. And then. But there's still all these unanswered questions. So thank you for answering them and I appreciate you so much.
- [75:56]
B
Thank you.
- [75:57]
A
And tell everybody where they can follow you one more time.
- [76:00]
B
Okay. So my book is called Beyond Belief. My secret life inside Scientology and my harrowing escape. You can find it on Amazon. And my YouTube channel is just Jenna, Ms. Scavage. My tick tock's Jenna, Ms. Scavage, and my Instagram is the real Jenna Miscavige. Got it.
- [76:15]
A
All right, thank you so much. Have a good rest of your day. Thank you.
- [76:19]
B
Bye.
- [76:22]
A
And, Doug, here we have the Limu.
- [76:25]
B
Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating.
- [76:35]
A
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [76:38]
B
Uh, limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?
- [76:41]
A
Cut the camera. They see us.
- [76:42]
B
Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com.
- [76:45]
A
Liberty.
- [76:45]
B
Liberty.
- [76:46]
A
Liberty.
- [76:47]
B
Liberty Savings Ferry, unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.