Sonja Morgan (4:43)

Right, I'm modeling lingerie tonight. And they're waiting for me backstage. But I said I have to go on the Juicy Scoop. This is my girlfriend through Josh Flag. You know, we're like family. She sat at the family table. Table. Or you know, his party for Nikki Haskell, remember, with the parents.

Heather McDonald (4:59)

Yes. Is it? Is it? Yes. That was a really fun night. Wait, is it lingerie or lingerie?

Sonja Morgan (5:07)

It depends if you want to say it in English or French. So lingerie is French. So what I'm eating, of course. As a, you know, 60 something year old model, this is what I eat before. Prosciutto pesto cream. So my belly sticks out like Kick Moss. Remember they killed Kate Moss when she modeled lingerie. Like the haters came out saying, oh, you're too old. You have a belly, honey. Never too old.

Heather McDonald (5:30)

And so wait, were you doing. So this is for Fashion Week. You're doing all like cool, real fashion shows.

Sonja Morgan (5:37)

This is official New York Fashion Week. And they said they're having iconic, you know, people on to model in each set. And then there's this singer, Maya. I'm a part of pop culture, but I don't know anything about it. So she's supposed to be like some famous singer and absolutely gorgeous. And they have some top models and I didn't brush my hair. You know, I got sagged last night and so.

Heather McDonald (6:04)

Oh, you did. Who did you sleep with?

Sonja Morgan (6:06)

Well, because the Viking and I are done. It was a year and a half. He ghosted.

Heather McDonald (6:12)

Now why do you call him the Viking? Was he really from.

Sonja Morgan (6:15)

Yeah, he really a Viking. He's Icelandic or Nordic.

Heather McDonald (6:19)

Like a Nordic.

Sonja Morgan (6:20)

He has a beard like red strawberry red blonde hair.

Heather McDonald (6:23)

And you guys were exclusive? Wait, wait, you were exclusive boyfriend and girlfriend for a year and a half?

Sonja Morgan (6:28)

Yeah, the New York Post like tried to out him and everything. I kept him, you know, I have to keep him under a rock. You know what happens around me. Everybody steals my boyfriends.

Heather McDonald (6:38)

So who's this? Who's the guy from last night?

Sonja Morgan (6:41)

Oh, so I met a guy last night that I met before. So we did a little rendezvous because, you know, I'm in New York, I sold the townhouse, I'm at a hotel. Someone met me at the bar. And it's, it's looking up, it's looking up, it's going forward. And I didn't meet. I'm on one of those dating apps, you know, with the fish in your hand and no shirt. Yeah, no, this guy, I'm telling you, this is good. So I'm excited.

Heather McDonald (7:05)

And so now you live in Palm Beach?

Sonja Morgan (7:09)

Yes, I have a beautiful condo and that's my home base now. So when I'm flying out, like this weekend, I'm doing the Paramount Theater. You know that theater? It's huge. Yeah. And the Wellmont on Saturday in New Jersey. So I have friends from New York coming to both. And of course they do my hair and makeup, so I don't bother. I know it's show up like this.

Heather McDonald (7:31)

So you're living in Palm Beach? Have you heard about the New Reality show that's starting in Palm Beach. Have you heard about this?

Sonja Morgan (7:39)

But there's nothing there. There's nothing there. Trust me.

Heather McDonald (7:42)

Okay?

Sonja Morgan (7:43)

I mean, you might as well watch the New Ronnie. The New Ronnie, or however you say it, Real Housewives in New York. That's not gonna. No, nobody's that I know is accepting that one. So no one's accepted something if I thought it was something you should be talking about or beyond the. It hasn't even been picked up.

Heather McDonald (8:02)

Okay. I just wondered if they were, like, trying to get you on it.

Sonja Morgan (8:08)

No, I mean, I'm too expensive for Bravo now. Who the hell can afford me down there, you know? Oh, geez. Get too much money. We're out. We're on the curb, baby. We're doing only fans and cameos and zooms and Everlast shows.

Heather McDonald (8:23)

Cavern. Listen. So, wait, so have you watched any of the Roni the last two seasons? The new. The New Girls?

Sonja Morgan (8:31)

No, I haven't even watched the end of Crappy Lake, and I. I saw the first three episodes because I was with my lover, you know, the year and a half Viking, and he liked watching it. Guys really like Crappy Lake, you know, with my snatch guard, Luann. But, you know, people are calling me and Luanne and everyone. They all want to hire us and do sizzle reels and all that, so. Something else. Shakeout.

Heather McDonald (8:53)

Oh, a lot of people want to do new shows with you guys.

Sonja Morgan (8:56)

Yeah. Yeah. And you know me. I don't want to do drama anymore. I'm tired of turning the other chic. I want to do the comedy like you. I like to be the funny girl.

Heather McDonald (9:05)

So what about doing more Ultimate Girls Trip? I think they put, like, a. They put a pin in it because of all the controversy with Brandi and Caroline Manza. But all the fans want to see more Ultimate Girls trips. Wouldn't you go do that again?

Sonja Morgan (9:20)

Is that the word on the street? As Viva Drescher would say. Well, okay, yeah, we are all open to a trip in short season, you know, short filming, you know?

Heather McDonald (9:29)

Right.

Sonja Morgan (9:30)

It's gonna be just a couple of weeks, 10 days, and we get a few episodes short. Me and Luann are totally booked on our tours. Like, you have your tour dates. You don't just go cancel them because you're gonna go, you know, do something else. So I really need to know ahead of time. I've got, like, 15 cities. I'm doing, like, four cities in California. I'm doing Florida. So now I fly out of PBI. It's incredible. Heather I don't have to do LaGuardia. I don't have to do Kennedy. And I don't have to pay $120 to go standard. Practically like Fred Flintstone. You know, making the car go for myself, you know, I. I just go to PBI. It's like $6. It's so close. Because I live in West Palm on the water.

Heather McDonald (10:15)

Yeah. Now, what about all.

Sonja Morgan (10:18)

You're too young for Palm Beach. You're so young.

Heather McDonald (10:21)

I performed in Palm beach and I love. It's just the cutest. Most like, it just. It feels like a movie. I love all the colors and the style and the rich people. What about the men down there?

Sonja Morgan (10:33)

I think they're so bad, you know. You still have that? I wear one piece and hide. I'm like, meanwhile, I'm doing lingerie today. But that's all right. That's to inspire all the other women like me out there. So. Yeah, and you're too young to go to Palm beach because you have your son still. He's still home. My daughter moved out. She's in Hollywood. She's doing fine.

Heather McDonald (10:51)

Both my boys are in college. But are you. Are you looking to score like, you know, some rich older men? Because I went out one night and I saw Ramona out. Oh, she has a great boyfriend. She has a great boyfriend. And so what about, like, you don't want to find someone more serious or you're just having fun playing with him?

Sonja Morgan (11:12)

I do, but I don't think she met him in Palm Beach. From what I can tell is, you know, that's a very small pond. Palm Beach. I'm more of an international jet setter type. Those. You know, a lot of the hot looking guys there, I don't know if you notice, they're looking for sugar mama. Yeah, all the cute guys are married to women that you say, oh, she must have the money. You know, you can just tell. And then the older guys are all married, I suppose. I mean, I do like a guy, you know, less hair than me and a bigger belly. There's plenty of that. But I'm not gonna go around eyeballing people's old men, you know, down there. Like, I can't do that. I don't wanna be, like, canceled by the local matrons of society.

Heather McDonald (11:55)

So when you hear about all the fans being like, bring back the OGs. We don't. We miss our girls and everything. Is there some. A little bit of vindication? Because they did just send you guys off to pasture and replace you with girls that are not nearly as entertaining. I think they're all wonderful women in their own right, but as an ensemble, as a show, it just cannot compare to the original. Roni, how do you feel about that?

Sonja Morgan (12:22)

Well, I'm not vindictive. That's not my style. I mean, I'm sorry it didn't work out for me.

Heather McDonald (12:26)

Not vindictive. Not vindictive.

Sonja Morgan (12:28)

They can't fill our shoes. I mean, that's why we're the OGs. That's why we had so many seasons. Plus, Andy Cohen's first book said, the best franchises are the girls who really. Our friends. We're all dear friends. We knew each other for decades. You know, it's more like, you know, it's an ensemble cast of people that know each other and have a trust level, and they can fight like sisters, you know, and be real about it.

Heather McDonald (12:50)

But I think also.

Sonja Morgan (12:51)

But what I do feel is. I didn't say. Right. Heather. It was good for us to show that you don't just want something against us. Wait, I just want.

Heather McDonald (12:59)

I didn't say vindictive. I meant. I said vindicated. Vindicated. Vindicated. Just kind of, like, told you so a little bit.

Sonja Morgan (13:07)

I think it gave us a seal of approval that, you know, you just can't fill our shoes. You know, they should have done a different title. First of all, I think it was unfair to those girls to go with Real Housewives of New York. That didn't make sense to me. That's our hashtag. I think they could have been the new wives of New York City or something. You know, the new Kids on the Block, because they are basically kids compared to us. Other than Jenna Lyons, I think she's more our age. And I've met all the girls.

Heather McDonald (13:34)

They're all great.

Sonja Morgan (13:35)

You've met them, right?

Heather McDonald (13:37)

I think they're all great and gorgeous, too. I just think it's just a different type of show. You're right. It should have been called. And also, they're all social influencers, so we have to. So I think that plays a part in it being a little less fun because they're seriously working all the time. But in a job that's not fun to watch on tv, taking photos of your outfits and posting about it is not a fun job to watch on tv. Having you guys put together a charity event that you were really doing that then had a bunch of snafus in real life was really entertaining to watch. And you didn't all have your phones out trying to get your own content at the same Time. I think that's what the biggest difference is, that people haven't really realized.

Sonja Morgan (14:19)

Well, I didn't watch it, but that sounds about right. Because the feedback I'm getting from people is just like, we don't want to watch them. They want. They want to hear about our divorces and, you know, losses in our life and how we keep going and inspire others to let them know that they can relate to us. And then, of course, there's the more, more money, more problems thing. That always makes people feel better. People want wisdom and they want to laugh. And I think all of us are funny.

Heather McDonald (14:48)

You're all, all funny, you know, Jill, Dorinda, Luann, everybody. And it's also that no filter New Yorker like you guys were a. There is a type of woman that makes you the New Yorker that I am, not that I'm like, oh, my God, like, Jill will just say stuff and I'll just die laughing because it's like, oh, my God, you remind me of my New York, you know, aunt back in the day. And like, there's something about a New Yorker that when you're true blue New York, you just don't give a shit. And you say it. And that is what I also think made the show so authentic.

Sonja Morgan (15:22)

I think so too. Even myself, when I see someone from New York and I recognize the accent and the mojo, you know, like loading the plane from. I forget where it came from. D.C. because I had a show in D.C. so I'm in D.C. coming off the show and people there like, really easygoing. And I'm going to get on the plane to LaGuardia and you can tell they're New Yorkers. They're just like moving that line so fast. And all the stewardess are so happy because everyone has their ticket ready. Everyone has their baggage the right size. There's no fumbling. You don't get in front of somebody at Starbucks in Manhattan and not know your order.

Heather McDonald (15:57)

Right, right. That is great. So tell me a little bit about your shows. Like, what are you doing? How does it work?

Sonja Morgan (16:06)

So it's, it's. It started out I had a couple of sidekicks and, you know, sing song skits that you've seen me do on Real Housewives. You know, the White Swan or, you know, the, the Marilyn Monroe, like, fun skits. And then it got too expensive. Like, you always hear Luanne say, it's too expensive. I can't pay you, babe. You know, here's 250. Try to your nails done for that. But no, I just, I Cut the expenses down. I don't have the piano player anymore. I don't have the, you know, big screen up there. I don't have, like, these new songs, right? I'm. I'm just coming out, doing improv, flying from the hip. I start with my chair dance, which is always hilarious. You've seen that when I did them on the show. So I put some new moves in there for this first quarter. And then I wear my headdresses and fans and ostrich, you know, everywhere flying. It's. It's chaos. And people are scared I'm gonna, you know, break a hip at my age. You know, my fans love me, and so they're always like, oh, my God. And then we do the Q and A, which. I've got some crazy fans. You know, I don't call them fans. They're contemporaries. I mean, they're telling me about three ways and choking each other out. And you wouldn't believe the things they tell me. I mean, they're asking me questions. Have you ever done that? I'm like, no, I haven't been choked. No, not literally. Yeah, I know. It's like a thing guys do, but it's not like, oh, you won't believe what comes out with the Q and A. And then now, I mean, that the meet and greet. I used to, like, sign people's phones. Then it was their boobs. Now now they bend over, folding on their pants. I sign their ass chick. It's like, total chaos. It's so much fun.

Heather McDonald (17:43)

Oh, good.

Sonja Morgan (17:44)

I mean, asses at your show.

Heather McDonald (17:49)

I've not signed an ass. I have signed a boob. I do get great gifts. I got a Chanel wallet.

Sonja Morgan (17:59)

Oh, no, my best. They know. I'll just, you know, give it to my daughter. I like the fake shit. I gave my daughter all my Birkins. She took everything out of storage.

Heather McDonald (18:08)

Oh, yeah. She had a viral TikTok. People didn't realize she was your daughter when it first went. And she was like, oh, my God. And look at all these Birkins that I have for my mom. And then people look down at the name and they're like, oh, my God, that's Sonia's daughter. Yeah.

Sonja Morgan (18:23)

I'm so proud of her that she does that on her own.

Heather McDonald (18:25)

Yeah, yeah, it was good. It was funny.

Sonja Morgan (18:28)

So her mama how to do that, but still have a professional job in finance, you know, she is. How.

Heather McDonald (18:35)

What was it? Being your daughter? Has she ever had a problem with you and your reality stardom?

Sonja Morgan (18:42)

No. I think when she Was younger. Like, she'd come home from school at 3. I would always be with her, do her homework, have her snacks. She's like that. She has to have the help. She's straight A's since forever. She graduated summa cum laude or how do you say it? Sounds like, come loud. I don't like to say it wrong, but she always has been a bookworm, a libra, Very balanced. She doesn't like the limelight. She. She likes, you know, she's the ambassador. I think when she was that age, she would mind if I had to go film right after. You know, I'd leave her at 4, and then she'd go to bed at 6.

Heather McDonald (19:12)

That.

Sonja Morgan (19:12)

That bothered. But once she got older, she was fine. Some loser. He knows who he is, I'm sure. But some guy that has a podcast somehow got my daughter on there. And he actually said, and she was very professional and very inspirational. I didn't watch it, but I got the clip because someone sent it to me. He said, oh, don't you get embarrassed of your mom? Or something like that? She's like, no. Without skipping a beat, she said, everything my mom does is for me. She's pop culture icon, you know, that's great. That's when things are today. So she's very cool. She told me about the house. She goes, I don't care how little you get first, just dump it. Because I found a place in Florida. Like, get your life started.

Heather McDonald (19:56)

Do you feel like that townhouse was just like an ongoing nightmare? Like it was another character on the show. It just like kept coming back from the dead. Like, it was like, what was that?

Sonja Morgan (20:08)

It was Grey Gardens, right? He was coming back from the dead. Well, you know, that's the whole thing. I want my daughter to have security. She was a very sensitive type, and the divorce shook her up a bit. So I just wanted her to have security in the house. And all her friends are international. My godson, who's like her brother, he went to the. In Switzerland and she went to Taft. So we had all these international kids staying at the house. Every couch was made up as a bet.

Heather McDonald (20:37)

Yeah.

Sonja Morgan (20:38)

So I didn't want to take that out from under her. And then when she moved to Hollywood, I'm like, why am I one person living in five floors? My garden, my balcony. I used to spend a day in the basement. Like, Dorinda in the basement. You know, no. Good riddance. Goodbye, house.

Heather McDonald (20:56)

So when did you. What did you finally get for it?

Sonja Morgan (20:59)

I don't even remember. It was so Low. I know I had to take a mortgage when I was sued. I had a chapter 11. I had a slate of pictures. I was doing well, one movie was with Forrest Whitaker and Gabrielle Onward and that one awards. I was doing great. And then somebody set me up. It's called. It's called like a. Whatever. It was terrible.

Heather McDonald (21:19)

So, yeah, so you were like a. You were in vet, like an investing producer.

Sonja Morgan (21:25)

So I took a mortgage house for that lawsuit. This is what I was saying. So that, oh, whatever I sold it for covered the mortgage plus some crumbs, and I'm out of there. And now any income I have is just for me. Well, I'm still supporting my daughter, like many of us. I mean, anybody has a kid under 30 has to help them these days. It's just not the same.

Heather McDonald (21:44)

Yeah, right. And do you still. What about the Morgan letters? What was one a famous moment? Don't touch the Morgan letters. How do you feel about the Morgan Letters today?

Sonja Morgan (21:59)

Good. You know, I still do that. I'm doing the LGBTQ parties in the summer at the Morgan Library, and I'm still on the board of some of the Morgan charities. And, you know, I'm a Francophiles of one of the museums and Morgan JPMorgan's daughter is over in France, so I still have all that going on. And, you know, I support artists, LGBTQ animals, you know, children. So that all ties in because it's a French American museum and a lot of my LGBTQ friends are artists, so I can help them out. Like, Hun Slynam is a really good friend. He just texted like a few minutes ago.

Heather McDonald (22:34)

Yeah, that. That is great. And so when do you come to LA again to stay with Josh Flagg?

Sonja Morgan (22:42)

Well, he just texted me, when am I gonna see your pussy? I'm just like, okay. How many times do I have to show it to him? He misses me so bad. So now he has this new new house, right? He has the new one he's still building. And then he has the new new one that I just stayed in. And he has Kelton, who we call Crouton. That's his. I want to say fiance. You know, he was crushed when his last relationship broke up and, you know, I had to go there and sleep with him and take bubble baths and take care of him. You know, he lost so much weight. He was very sad about that breakup. Now I can tell you he's a new man with Kelton. They're wonderful together, so beautiful together. So I'm gonna go out there soon because I have These four shows in California and I have Seattle.

Heather McDonald (23:29)

Tell us about the California. Do you know your California dates offhand or where can they find all their dates?

Sonja Morgan (23:35)

March, I think.

Heather McDonald (23:39)

Maybe I can come to the LA one because he's not.

Sonja Morgan (23:42)

Going to wait till March 12th, 11th. He's not going to wait, but I think Monterey, I'm looking forward to that. Nap is already sold out.

Heather McDonald (23:49)

Oh, great.

Sonja Morgan (23:51)

And then I'm going to do Ventura. That's when all my LA's friends are coming to. And that's between.

Heather McDonald (23:57)

Okay, I, I, I'm close to, I'm close to Ventura, so I'll come to that one.

Sonja Morgan (24:02)

I think I already have an mc, but you should be the opening actor.

Heather McDonald (24:06)

Whatever, call me, I'm ready. But I'll be, I'll go for sure. I like to also be an audience member and cheer you on.

Sonja Morgan (24:13)

Yeah, you're working a lot right now. You could deserve a little rest.

Heather McDonald (24:15)

Yeah, whatever. It'll be fun. Well, anyway, this was so great talking to you and I know you have to go and be a supermodel and. Yeah, let's go out, let's hang out. Good luck with all the shows. You really are funny off the cuff and I'm sure people will have a great time. So where do they buy their tickets? Is there one site to go?

Sonja Morgan (24:40)

You can get on my website, Sony Morgan Official or just put in Sony in your city. But don't go through their shit sites because the shitty sites, they don't have the meet and greet. Yeah.

Heather McDonald (24:49)

And they have to go to the commercial theater. Also, they're more expensive too because they might be like secondhand, so we don't want people to ever pay more than they have to. And then also, so all your other endeavors, the Tipsy girl, the toaster ovens, the clothing, like, what happened? Are you just ready? You think you'll ever get back into those fields?

Sonja Morgan (25:14)

Tipsy Girl, as you know, went 86 with that partner, which Bethany said it would anyhow. Not because of Bethany. I mean, we survived that fight and we're good friends to the state, but I have my Sonia Sangrias doing very well. It's in Canada and in the US and it's white and red, you know, there's no added sugar or anything. It's all natural and organic, so that's great. And then Cameo, I'm like, if you're on the board there, you know, I'm always in the top 10 worldwide, but in the, on the Bravo Liberty list, I'm always in the top one or two so that's been a mainstay for me. Cameo. And then my only fans on there. I share my makeup tips and, you know, things that people are usually like. Follow me. I. I don't like whatever you call that when people surf you to find out what you're wearing.

Brian Kelly (26:00)

And.

Heather McDonald (26:01)

Yeah, so for your only fans, you don't do sexy stuff.

Sonja Morgan (26:05)

Oh, I will put on some sexy things for the purse. But okay, it's a sex workers channel to begin with. But then Hulu did this whole special on only fans like Cardi B signed up right after me.

Heather McDonald (26:17)

Huh.

Sonja Morgan (26:18)

So.

Heather McDonald (26:20)

So you're doing well on only.

Sonja Morgan (26:22)

And I had a big sign on. Bonus big sign up. But you should do it. Make them pay you up front.

Heather McDonald (26:29)

Oh, really? Okay.

Sonja Morgan (26:30)

I can intro you, but you don't have to, like, Cardi puts on there. Like, for 500, you can see a video of her backstage making a new album. Okay, somebody. 20 bucks to get my. My favorite travel cosmetics or something. But I do put some, you know, whatever I did on the show or I was like, nude or whatever, and I'll see it, like, blurred out. I'll put that on there. I'll put on a booby dress that I'll post things that, you know, some people want to see my feet. I don't. I don't want to get paid for my feet. They said, can I pay you 500 to see your feet?

Heather McDonald (27:02)

And do you say yes? Don't you?

Sonja Morgan (27:04)

No, I don't really want to attract that thing. I don't. I don't know. I. I know some girls like it. I. I'm not a foot fetish type of girl.

Heather McDonald (27:14)

Yeah. Would you. Will you come back to Bravocon if.

Sonja Morgan (27:18)

They ask you if I have a show to promote? I only did it the two times because we had the crappy lake. But if I have a show to promote, I will do it. I think you're right. They should do another Ultimate Girls trip and one of these other, you know, what do you call sizzle reels or pilots I'm working on. Something's gonna stick. I mean, there are people out there that want to have us and not just a rotating cast. You know, these rotating casts where they have you on once and then bye. Bye. They don't want to have, like, 13 seasons where they have to keep paying you more.

Heather McDonald (27:51)

Right. Not. Not just like doing, like, would you do the Traders now?

Sonja Morgan (27:56)

They asked me to do that all three seasons. Right. I can't just say, oh, yeah, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna. You know, clear my calendar for six weeks of Sonia and you're saying give you my phone and I can't do cameos? Yeah, you don't get your phone then. I don't. You know, you couldn't do only.

Heather McDonald (28:11)

You couldn't do only fans then either, right?

Sonja Morgan (28:14)

Yeah, but I. I have interns that can post stuff for me on my only fans because I have a stack of. I put everything in Dropbox that I want going on and there. I don't really have to put a caption. Yeah. It's not a back and forth. And I got $100 tips from. I got $100 tip from a woman in Texas when I posted a moomoo I was wearing at a pool in Texas.

Heather McDonald (28:34)

That's nice.

Sonja Morgan (28:36)

Not even a lesbian from what I can tell.

Heather McDonald (28:38)

So. So do you pay your interns now?

Sonja Morgan (28:44)

No, they get school credit and then they don't leave. It's kind of like my lovers. They get breakfast and they don't leave. They check in, they don't check out. You know, once they sitting front row at this fashion today or flying with me to do Fiber 1 or Vita Coco, like flying around with me and styling me and getting all that sexy resume next to working at Barnes and Noble. The last job, you know, they really like the access. And my daughter said, you have to understand, most kids, we go to work in a cubicle, and then we go out to Sweet Greens and we come back, they don't have the access you and I have. They're not at jock's flag parties. You know, they're not going to the Morgan Library and saying, hello, Mrs. Morgan is, you know, like, they get to see.

Heather McDonald (29:29)

Yeah, and. And, but what about. Have you ever wanted to get your daughter to work for you? Then why you said she's in a little cubicle. Maybe she'd rather be doing.

Sonja Morgan (29:39)

I know she has a boss job.

Heather McDonald (29:42)

Okay.

Sonja Morgan (29:43)

She actually has an office now because she went to. She was between Paramount and Disney. She went and then a headhunter picked her up. And so now she's with the Boss team of 18 people, you know, doing. Doing. She crunches numbers for motion pictures. She's. She knows everything. She knows everybody. Everything.

Heather McDonald (30:03)

I can't wait to see you one day. Being the mother of the bride, if she. If she was to get married, do you think you'll be a good mother of the bride or a bad one?

Sonja Morgan (30:09)

Oh, yeah, I'll be great. I've been great at all her graduations and, you know, meeting her dates. She's. She always says Oh, I don't want to date for a while. Like I'm not gonna have a boyfriend. And then, you know, year two years and then right away she has a boyfriend. I've never had a DTF kind of girl. So I'm just glad she's with her boyfriend now. Four years escorted to the Adore McCall show.

Heather McDonald (30:32)

Okay, you go have a great time. This is really fun and we will see you soon. Maybe at the Ventura show or in Josh's bathtub.

Sonja Morgan (30:41)

I'll make Josh pick you up in one of his fancy cars. And what else? You should get on Onlyfans.

Heather McDonald (30:49)

Okay, maybe I will. We'll see.

Sonja Morgan (30:51)

Love you.

Heather McDonald (30:52)

You're so funny. Congrats. Bye.

Sonja Morgan (30:54)

Bye.

Heather McDonald (30:55)

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Brian Kelly (34:59)

I'm a housewives whisperer.

Heather McDonald (35:02)

Everyone thinks they are. No, but I really have you really helped anyone though.

Brian Kelly (35:06)

Have I helped them?

Heather McDonald (35:07)

Have you really whispered and they've taken your advice and done something great?

Brian Kelly (35:11)

Oh, yeah. I mean, I helped them all travel.

Heather McDonald (35:13)

Oh, help them travel.

Brian Kelly (35:14)

Yeah. I mean, and I also, like, I'm an entrepreneur, so I want to start a side business, like, helping them through their storylines. Because, like, as a gay with the pulse on, like, pop culture, I don't.

Heather McDonald (35:26)

Know, now I feel competitive with you because I truly have been the housewife consultant.

Brian Kelly (35:31)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (35:32)

But I'm better than you because I do it for Christian service hours and I just help out of the goodness of my heart.

Brian Kelly (35:38)

I do, too. Yeah. I shouldn't charge them, but originally you watch some of these storylines. Like, you watch, like, Mia talking about her abortion storyline, which she thought was gonna land differently, and you're just like, no. And they just. They need good gays in their lives and good, fabulous women.

Heather McDonald (35:55)

And also originally, when I created the housewife consultant side business for only Christian service hours, was Jesus Jugs your first client? I have helped her. I helped Alexis Foligno before she got the boot. I was giving her lots. I think I was giving her very good advice. And I actually told her to tell Alex Baskin. I said, you need to say that at one time, you are so positive, and now that you and John are together, this is real houses of OC and that you're going forward in your relationship, that when you come back on the show, you wanna prove that you and Shannon can be friends and maybe even, like, double date one day. Like, why is that so unheard of? Like, you know, this was all just can be cleaned up now, whatever. And she was like, what? I can't say that would ever believe that, but I was just trying to, because I was like, I really wanted her to come back. I really did. I wanted to see the wedding. I wanted to see Tamara as a bridesmaid at 60 years old or whatever, which is all great. I wanted to see Heather Dubrow attempt to sing again, like she did at Tamara's wedding. I wanted to see one of the other housewives officiate it. I wanted to see it. Yeah. I wanted the whole season to be if Shannon was gonna attend or not.

Brian Kelly (37:17)

Yeah. But she came in too strong, swinging, rubbing it in Shannon's face. And, like, that's not a storyline. Like, the female audience wants to watch, like, the bitchy new girlfriend rubbing it in.

Heather McDonald (37:29)

Yeah. That's never gonna win with this audience.

Brian Kelly (37:31)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (37:32)

But tell me how you. Let's go back a little bit about yourself. So when did you become, like, such an Expert at figuring this out because myself, my husband is very good at it. But he's excited to get the book and he had some questions too. But without my husband, I don't even know that I ever would have done anything. I probably would have just always just called an airline and just said, get me a ticket to Phoenix or whatever, or went online. And I don't even know because it all seems so confusing.

Brian Kelly (38:07)

It is. It's like learning a language I actually learned in the 90s. So I'm 41. So when I was 8 or 9 years old, I got Prodigy Internet. I was like the hacker in my family. I'm one of four kids, middle class family, grew up outside of Philly. And I remember installing the modem in my computer, putting the phone line in, waiting to connect to the Internet. So I became the little hacker of our family. And my dad, he had gotten a job working from home for a startup actually based in Chatsworth, California. And so he had to travel from Philly to California like every other week. And he challenged me. He was like, I need to book my own flights. And this is 1995 when Travelocity just launched. So I was his travel agent. I was 12 years old.

Heather McDonald (38:53)

That is the cutest story ever, booking his flights.

Brian Kelly (38:55)

And he would pay me $10 per flight. Cause he thought I'd have to take like an hour to do it. Meanwhile it was like 10 seconds. He didn't realize how easy it was. So it was a very lucrative gig for a 12 year old. And so I was booking his travel. I just like a little gay boy in the closet. Like I always just wanted to live this fabulous life. I always knew suburbia was not for. And I was always jealous of my friends, like the wealthy friends who would go to Europe. And you know, my family, we were very like, I'm one of four kids. So like we would drive to the, you know, Outer Banks or Maine for like a lake vacation. But my parents were not like the fancy.

Heather McDonald (39:29)

Well, I also just think it's like either that's your, that's your vibe as a family or it's not. Or you're very comfortable with going. I remember Phil Rosenfeld who created Everyone Loves Raymond and now he has a show or did where he goes around and tries food of all different countries and it's a travel show. And he came on and he's like, here I am working with Ray Romano. We created this show, Everyone Loves Raymond. And he'd be like, what are you doing on the summer break? And he'd be like, oh, we're just going to Jersey, to the Jersey Shore. And he's like, you never want to do anything different. And Ray's like, no. And he's like, no, you really should. So then they actually wrote a whole episode where they go to Italy for the first time because. And even for Ray, who certainly had the money, certainly had somebody who could plan out the trip, I think sometimes for people it just seems overwhelming. And I went to Europe for the first time and it was almost like a panic where I felt like if I keep putting this off, I'm gonna be like, not being able to walk around, like, what am I doing? My kids are older. It's time that I go and explore and do these things. But I just, it does seem overwhelming to like book it and know that you're getting the best price. And okay, so you're this kid and you start doing this 12 year old.

Brian Kelly (40:56)

And then one year.

Heather McDonald (40:56)

Do you take on any other clients at 12?

Brian Kelly (40:58)

And funny, my other job was I was on the AOL classifieds. Ebay had just launched. And ebay was so popular that thrift shops, which is what it was made for originally, they couldn't upload because the servers were slammed during the day. So when I was 12, at night, these thrift shops would send me lists of what they wanted to list on this new marketplace. And in the middle of the night, as a 12 year old, I would upload because that's the only time the servers were free. So I was like a little entrepreneur in the 90s. And so, yeah, my dad one day was like, we have all these frequent flyer miles. If you can figure out how to use them, we can go on a trip. And I had just read the Firm by John Grisham and they were in the Cayman Islands. And as this overactive imagination kid who wanted to explore the world, I figured out I called American Airlines and US Airways and I like flew my mom and I on American miles, my dad and three siblings. And VRBO Vacation Rentals by owner had just launched as well. And that was the first marketplace where you could rent someone's vacation house. So we rented for like $1500 this two bedroom, cute bungalow on the beach in Grand Cayman in this beautifoint, this beautiful secluded part of the island. And speaking of Jersey Shore, growing up in the Philly suburbs, like everyone went to the Jersey Shore and it was expensive. It was like 10 grand or like, you know, rental homes there are real. It's like almost as expensive as the Hamptons. People don't realize. And so we went to the Cayman Islands for less than $2,000, all six of us free on points. We rented this house, and I talk about it in the book.

Heather McDonald (42:26)

And what number are you in the family?

Brian Kelly (42:28)

I'm the third of four kids, so I have two older brothers and a younger sister.

Heather McDonald (42:31)

Okay, so when you brought everyone to the Cayman Islands, was it just like, Brian is the greatest. Like, did you suddenly. Were you suddenly the favorite child and the favorite sibling all in one fell swoop?

Brian Kelly (42:43)

Well, so the night before we left, I had my first pet. I was in my bunk bed and I had a full blown anxiety attack. I remember so vividly sitting there, like, my hands are in my armpits. Like, am I gonna get grounded? Like, what did I just do? Like, this is 1996 now I'm 12, and true story. I told my dad, I was like, we're going to Grand Cayman. But he thought I said Grand Canyon. And back in those days, you didn't even get email receipts. So the tickets come in the mail. And he's like, owen Roberts International. He's like, where the hell are we going? We didn't even have passports back then. You didn't need a passport to go to the Caribbean. And he's like, I remember him, brian, what the hell are the Cayman Islands? He's like, are there hospitals? I remember he panicked. He's like, what if we get sick? And so they basically trusted me at age 12 to book the trip. And I remember going through the airport because my dad and brothers got there first. And I was like, either he's gonna be furious or like. And I walked through. We go through immigration, and he just, like, gave me the biggest bear hug. And he was like, you nailed it. And it was like the most epic trip. There were six of us in this two bedroom. We were all sleeping on sofas and stuff, but we were on the beach and in the Cayman Islands, where we just snorkel all day. We all got sunburnt. We would play cards at night. To this day is one of the most amazing trips we've ever had. And I push parents today. I've talked to a lot of parents of teens. Give your kids responsibility for the family trip. Like, allow them to, like, start planning even just a day, you know, you all need to figure out what the tours are, where we're going, do the research, set a budget, figure out the restaurants. And even if it fails and it's miserable, I firmly believe, like, being given that responsibility to help plan the trip, like Taught me so much. Like, never in a million years did I think I would create, like, a little empire out of points and travel. But I do think, like, getting that responsibility, like, set the groundwork.

Heather McDonald (44:36)

I love it because I. I've seen people show tiktoks of their child where. Or they have a group, they have a family trip, and each person does a. Like, a little presentation of where they want the family to go. You know, the parents are paying, but, like, it's that same type of thing.

Brian Kelly (44:51)

It goes on the housewives. Her daughter has to, like, do a PowerPoint. I love that.

Heather McDonald (44:56)

I love that.

Brian Kelly (44:56)

Instead of just creating spoiled kids, you know, you roll out the red carpet.

Heather McDonald (44:59)

What museum are you interested in? Why? Like, why don't you look up? What would be a cool. Or why not take the train from one country to the next? If you figure out y. The cool train that I see on this TikTok, tell me where that train is, how to get the tickets, what the best route to go, like, all that kind of stuff. So that. I love that idea.

Brian Kelly (45:20)

So that, like. So in the 90s, my dad and I. And then every year, so he traveled a lot for work. He'd miss my basketball games. I was terrible at basketball, so it was probably a good thing. I was like, but I'm 6 foot 7. So my dad was always just. He's like, I'm the tallest in the family, and I was terrible at basketball. But every year we'd go to Barbados, Caymans. It was like. So we were doing this points thing in the 90s. I didn't even know that other people were doing this. And then. It wasn't until the early 2000s I went to college. I was student body president, and I studied abroad in Madrid.

Heather McDonald (45:51)

Where'd you go to college?

Brian Kelly (45:52)

University of Pittsburgh. So I studied Spanish. I just always knew I wanted to be.

Heather McDonald (45:57)

So you're fluent?

Brian Kelly (45:58)

I mean, I'm not fully fluent. So I studied abroad in Madrid for six weeks. And so it was not enough to really pick up the language. And true story, I almost failed study abroad, which is very challenging to do, like, study abroad.

Heather McDonald (46:09)

It's actually kind of easy, right?

Brian Kelly (46:10)

It's so easy. But have you been to Madrid? No, Spain. I mean, Spaniards know how to live and they eat dinner at 11pm that you go out to the club in Madrid at like 1 or 2, and then you close it down at 6am.

Heather McDonald (46:25)

And then what do you do?

Brian Kelly (46:26)

Do you sleep all day, basically. And then they go into work at 10, then they have a siesta in the afternoon. But I had all these field trips for my study abroad program. I missed every single one because I'm coming home at 6 in the morning. So I almost, honestly, that makes me.

Heather McDonald (46:38)

Not want to go to Spain. Well, I mean, like, not that I'm doing nightclubs at this point in my life, but like that whenever I've heard that or about Ibiza or whatever, I'm always like, ugh. I like the Palm Springs lifestyle of eating at like 5:30 for sure.

Brian Kelly (46:52)

And Ibiza, I just went this year and I think it's like Spain. I mean, every destination, like you can go to Mykonos and just do beautiful, beautiful spa relaxing you can miss. But. But I really caught the bug in college. And then I had miles of my own. And then, then I realized there was this whole underworld of people. So there's these frequent flyer community. So I discovered it in 2004. It was a website called Flyer Talk. So it was basically Reddit, but for these frequent flyers. And it was a moment where you realize, like, there's alien life out there because there were all these people doing what my dad and I had done. Like people maximizing these airline programs to like, you know, get the most value out of them. So I realized, oh my God, there's a whole community of people. I became like, really engrossed in this world.

Heather McDonald (47:37)

And then do you ever fear that by like cracking the code and sharing it that they'll change it for sure?

Brian Kelly (47:42)

I mean. And so when I started the points guy in 2010, like that community did not. Like, there were other bloggers out there. But I took this hobby. And I mean, the points guy, it started off small, but it took off pretty quickly. I mean, we have now, you know, well over 150 employees. Like 10 million people a month are reading the site, plus millions more in social. So I took like this little community.

Heather McDonald (48:03)

What is the name of your thing? Is it just the points Guy?

Brian Kelly (48:07)

The points guy is like the website.

Heather McDonald (48:08)

Yes, it's a website. And you have 150 people working on the website.

Brian Kelly (48:12)

Yeah. So we're one of the top travel websites in the world for content. Like we. If you Google anything travel related and bread and butter, how I made money off of it is credit cards. Because the best way to get points is credit cards. And in the US there's like 15 top banks. Chase, Amex, Capital One, Wells Fargo, they'll give you tons of points to get a credit card. And then they all have bonuses. You can earn points on rent now. So anyone listening? If you are Paying rent. There's a credit card called Bilt B I L T. No annual fee. You earn points on rent and there is no fee to pay your landlord. Even if your landlord wants a check or a direct deposit, you will earn points. So this doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Like, the US Is the global epicenter of points and credit cards. So I was writing about credit cards and a friend of mine from college was like, you should be using affiliate marketing. And in 2011, affiliate marketing was kind of. I was like, this sounds shady. This is scammy. And. But I realized, like, because my audience, I was naturally writing about credit cards. And it went from, you know, it's making like a couple hundred dollars a month in Google, you know, AdSense, you know. And then with affiliate marketing, I made a million dollars in six months. It was like wild.

Heather McDonald (49:26)

Like, because that you had ads of hotels and stuff being part of your website.

Brian Kelly (49:30)

No. So it wasn't even ads. It was just links. So I would say the Amex Platinum is the best credit card for Delta. And. And so then the New York Times wrote an article about me, which in 2011 shot my SEO ranking through the roof. I didn't know what was happening at the time. I'm working at Morgan Stanley. I'm like an HR recruiter, college recruiter. So my job was like going to college campuses. I'm making 70,000 a year, basically living paycheck to paycheck. But at that job, I figured out how to use my corporate Amex because Morgan Stanley would pay it and I would get all the points. So I was broke as hell. I would leave New York on the weekends cause I couldn't afford to pay dinner. When you go out for a friend's birthday and everyone's like, okay, everyone throw your card in. Like, I was broke. So I would leave, fly first class somewhere, and I would get upgrades. I would get free breakfast. It was cheaper for me to fly first class around the world and stay in hotels than to stay in New York City on a weekend.

Heather McDonald (50:21)

Question, bringing it back to housewives. What did you think in the Real Housewives of New York when Jaisal's husband said, I fly to Vietnam just to get a sandwich. And they all insinuated that he might have had a Vietnam girlfriend, boyfriend, who knows what besides an egg roll or whatever?

Brian Kelly (50:39)

Just this for Pavit. I'm actually friends with Pavit and Jaisal now. They came to my book launch because when that episode came out, and by the like, I am so culturally inept. Because I never watch movies on planes, ever. I don't go to the movie theaters.

Heather McDonald (50:52)

What do you do on planes?

Brian Kelly (50:53)

Housewives. Cause I, like, don't have time. Like, usually when I'm home. So on my computer, I will buy the $2.99 episode and I will always have, like, like all the Housewives episodes. That is my time on a plane. I just catch up. So I'm.

Heather McDonald (51:07)

I will say. I wanna say for. For. Cause I'm flying to New York tomorrow and I find that the five hours go by quicker if you watch a series, whatever that is, with a lot of, like, episodes. 45 minutes to an hour versus two movies, for sure. Even if they're good movies. I don't know, there's something about then starting another movie. But if I'm just like, watching vegan or like, 30 Rock, like, to the next one. To the next one, it totally. Next thing I know, it's like, for.

Brian Kelly (51:34)

Me, that's just house. I get so much joy of having my Housewives moment. No distractions. Like, you know, okay, get back to the pavet.

Heather McDonald (51:41)

Sorry.

Brian Kelly (51:42)

So anyway, the Internet is like, points guy. Points guy. We need you to weigh in, like, and justice for him. So what he was doing is called mileage running and to get elite status. And so he got a mistake fare to Vietnam and he was going to get frequent flyer miles. He's flying first class on Cathay, which is an amazing airline. Like, fully, he's not there for sex tourism and psy and the bozos were just. Were being completely out of line.

Heather McDonald (52:07)

And also, I mean, he has two, you know, his twin boys.

Brian Kelly (52:11)

Twin boys, a beautiful wife. They're just.

Heather McDonald (52:13)

But also, it's a chance to get away.

Brian Kelly (52:14)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (52:15)

And it's a chance to just have a hotel room by yourself and the plane ride by yourself. Like, for some people, that is luxurious.

Brian Kelly (52:24)

And what most people. And why I wrote the book and in the book I say we're in the platinum age of travel. Because, yes, in economy, it sucks. Don't get me wrong. Like, back in the day, it was nicer in economy. But what people don't realize, in the golden age of travel, economy was more expensive than first class today. And only rich people could fly back in the day nowadays.

Heather McDonald (52:42)

That's why they were all dressed up.

Brian Kelly (52:43)

Yeah, that's why they're all dressed up. But, like, it was expensive. It was dangerous. There used to be hijackings. Like, this notion that, like, the best days of travel are behind us is false. Like, what you're looking at now, if you know how to fly in the front of the plane, like what Pavett was doing. You're getting Krug caviar, you're getting waited on, and you have a lie flat bed, and you can get tipsy, watch your shows, sleep, and then you wake up in Asia. Like, it's actually enjoyable to travel like people in this points game. Like flying to Vietnam. Most people are like, that sounds horrible. The only reason you'd want to go is to have sex with a prostitute. But it's actually people in the points world. So I'm watching that episode. I'm like, oh, my God, my blood is boiling. Because these. These idiot women are just being shady and they don't even know what they're talking about. So I chime in, and then Jaisal's like, thank you. And Pavit starts sharing it. And Pavit's a great guy. Like, yeah, so total team Pavet there. And it's very normal for people to do that in this mileage world, you know, that we live in. So.

Heather McDonald (53:40)

So now you're working on your website. It's growing. You're a single guy. You still have your regular job.

Brian Kelly (53:46)

Yep. But then the New York Times writes this article. And what I'll tell to any of the entrepreneurs out there, always check your spam inbox. So I had started the points guy. I'm working at Morgan Stanley. I'm like, blogging for fun, but not making any money. I'm like, $200 into Google Ads. I get into affiliate marketing, which seems scammy, but all I had to do, I was writing about credit cards. Anyway, what's the best credit card for United? And I would just do analysis of which card, but instead of linking directly to Chase or Amex, I was just using affiliate links. And so. So, boom, all of a sudden, I start making money from the site. I quit my job at Morgan Stanley, and just the site starts growing like crazy. Oh, back to the spam inbox. I was going through my email, and a reporter for the New York Times had emailed me, and it sat in my spam box for a month. And it was New York Times interview request. And I remember exactly the exact time and location when I opened that. I was like, this is huge. And I realized I met with the reporter because there were people like, frequent flyer miles are useless blackout dates. But I met with him and showed him. And he had a girlfriend in Brazil, and I showed him how to use his frequent flyer miles to go see his girlfriend. He surprised her, and he's like not making a lot of money. And his mind was blown. He's like, you just showed me how I can visit my girlfriend when I didn't have it in my budget. So he ends up writing an article. It's like the points guy website is gold. It links to the points guy, this tiny little blob. But then Google then sees this blog getting linked to by the New York Times. And so from that point forward, it was like a rocket ship because then my traffic, you would search for the Amex Platinum and the points guy would come up before Amex. So then also I just start making money. And then I realized using media because most travel bloggers are very awkward individuals. There's not very many charismatic of the original points blogger. So I'm like, let me be this hip, tuned into pop culture. Show me actually traveling on planes and kind of create a lifestyle around it that I think people aspire to. And instead of me just being ultra filtered picture in first class, it's here's me flying first class and here's how you transfer your Amex to Emirates to fly on your dream trip. I want to bring people along for the ride. And back to your point about the community hating me sharing secrets. They do. But my millions and millions of fans get to live incredible lives. Like when people come up to me in the airport, it's never to ask me a question. People like, hug me and they're like, you helped me take that trip to Hawaii or I got to take my kids to Cabo. You know, I lost my job. But we still, you know, and to me that's like, I firmly believe I have the best job in the world.

Heather McDonald (56:20)

Okay, so now cut to. You're living the high life here. People want to be your friend. Where do you go from that to then deciding, I want to be a single dad and not try to find a partner?

Brian Kelly (56:37)

Well, so I was, so I always wanted to be a dad. I mean, my life was wild. Like when I was 28, when I left Morgan Stanley. Then a publicly traded company comes in to buy my blog in 2012. So I went from making 70,000 a year. I had this like almost $30 million offer to buy my little blog after a year and a half. So it was like winning the lottery and I get to travel.

Heather McDonald (57:03)

So you sold it?

Brian Kelly (57:04)

So I sold it. But they were like, you know, I'm 28. They were like, and I'm the points guy. So they were like, you have to still run it. I had a three and a half year deal, but then the site just keeps growing and growing. I'm doing press and media, so they re upped my contract. They're like, just keep doing what you're doing. I mean the business is gangbuster because, you know, I have a team of writers. But we're now like becoming. We were essentially the top credit card website in America for getting.

Heather McDonald (57:28)

What was your major in college?

Brian Kelly (57:29)

Spanish and a minor in economics. So it's like.

Heather McDonald (57:32)

So you weren't a business major, but.

Brian Kelly (57:34)

I had business internships. I was student body president. And for anyone listening, with kids in college, we're all, I think as a society, like obsessed with grades and testing and scores, but like student government and learning how to be a leader. I was campaigning, I was like, I joined a fraternity. I was like the big man on campus. But those skill sets far and away set me up to succeed and moved to New York. I worked in fashion, ended up at Morgan Stanley and then started my, my own thing, you know. So I had, I actually I had like a 2.8 when I graduated college because I never went to class, but I was running a student government boards, traveling and like kind of learning how to connect with people. Which I think have. Has paid off more than like, you know, Roman philosophy, you know, or astronomy classes that I didn't like.

Heather McDonald (58:21)

So yeah, so now you have a couple bucks, but you still get to do your, your work of your funds. And so how did you get to. Okay, I'm ready to start a family on my own.

Brian Kelly (58:33)

So I'm one of four kids. My mom's one of 10. So big Irish Catholic family.

Heather McDonald (58:37)

Oh, so am I.

Brian Kelly (58:37)

Long Island.

Heather McDonald (58:39)

Oh, My dad's from Long Island. Long Beach. Long Island.

Brian Kelly (58:41)

Yeah. Both my parents, my mom was born in Garden City, Floral Park. Like, big Irish Catholic, middle class family. I have three siblings, they have 11 kids. Wow. So just like. And I love. I grew up in chaos. I don't know how many cousins I have. I think there's like 38 on my mom's side. But like family events were just chaos. Like, and I loved it. I had a really. So like, I think that's ingrained in me to have kids. But, you know, I'm in my 20s, 30s, building this website, traveling the world. I was dating people, but, you know, didn't find the right one. I actually, you know, business is good. I'm in my late 30s. I proposed to someone after like nine months. He was really fun. He was not meant to be my husband. And then the pandemic hits. So it was the week the world Was closing down. And I just remember thinking. I was like, I don't want him to quarantine with me. So I was like, let me call off this wedding.

Heather McDonald (59:32)

Wait, that is why?

Brian Kelly (59:34)

Well, there was a lot more going on behind the scenes. But, like, the pandemic, it was like that do or die moment. And I remember, like, New York shutting down. I remember thinking that bridges are gonna close. And I was like, I really don't want him locked in a house.

Heather McDonald (59:47)

But you thought. But you hadn't called off the wedding yet. So this was the do or die moment, really.

Brian Kelly (59:52)

Like, it was. There was like, we. Everything was great until I proposed. And then it was. Things started to, like, chatter behind the scenes. So the pandemic. I'm one of those people. It was like, the best thing to ever happen to me because I couldn't travel. I was, like, traveling nonstop, partying. The pandemic for me was like, pause. Called off my wedding, didn't travel. Reconnected with my family. I have a farm now in New Hope, Pennsylvania, which is like the new hotspot. Like, the Hadids lived there. Bradley Cooper, Taylor Swift just bought a farm in the area. So it's like this beautiful little farm town outside.

Heather McDonald (60:29)

I'm going to interrupt for one minute. What is your prediction for Taylor and Travis?

Brian Kelly (60:34)

So here's my prediction, and then we're.

Heather McDonald (60:35)

Getting back to that story, But I.

Brian Kelly (60:36)

Need to take some off the record. They deny buying a farm in New Hope where, you know, it's like. And my thing is that I think she's, like, pregnant or will be pregnant. I think they may. I think she's gonna wanna have kids, and I think they're gonna, like, she's gonna have kids. Stay with him.

Heather McDonald (60:54)

Well, then, I don't know that. You saw our girl's post recently. Claudia. Claudia from the toast.

Brian Kelly (61:00)

What did she say?

Heather McDonald (61:01)

She said, do you think it's possible that Taylor has gotten the ick from Travis? You know, after he lost the game and dropped the ball and was wearing his cheesy outfit and, like, strutting around like a housewife that's looking her room. And what do you think? And then Paige de Sorbo wrote yes or something. Now, I have said there's been moments where I'm like, she might. I was afraid she'd get the ick once he kept trying to sing and get on stage.

Brian Kelly (61:32)

Yeah, that's.

Heather McDonald (61:32)

And since she didn't get the ick, then I don't think she's gonna get the ick because he lost a game.

Brian Kelly (61:37)

And I think for her the last thing is having kids. All of her best friends have beautiful, gorgeous kids. Like I think she's probably just like his jeans are good. I've got everything.

Heather McDonald (61:46)

I but I disagree. I think she is that I got everything traditional girl. And I do think she wants to be married before pregnant or at least engaged before pregnant. I just think that she wants that. And I said if he doesn't ask her by April, I have no hope for this relationship. But you said you think they already have this.

Brian Kelly (62:08)

I could see them like she has a surrogate somewhere and like one day she's gonna have a kid. And they bought this farm near Gigi and all of these other people are raising kids in this beautiful area. Like I don't know could that. I mean that's just like my, you know, thoughts on it. Cause she's conquered the world. I mean and I think she sees it with all of her best friends and their young kids. Like you know, having kids. Is it like that's she might wanna.

Heather McDonald (62:33)

Be like a trad wife.

Brian Kelly (62:34)

Yeah. You never know.

Heather McDonald (62:36)

Make her own bread and butter.

Brian Kelly (62:37)

And she's from P.A. you know, raising kids in this like area not far from where she up on her Christmas tree farm.

Heather McDonald (62:43)

So you have your fat. So you have your fabulous place, you have your money, you're still working, you're single.

Brian Kelly (62:48)

Like the 2020 hits, like not traveling kind of had an existential. But I was like I've always wanted to have kids. I have the money. I know I'm going to be a good dad. And so I start the process of finding, you know, surrogate. I do the whole process on my own. During the pandemic at an egg donor.

Heather McDonald (63:05)

Was that difficult to find the right surrogate and the right egg.

Brian Kelly (63:08)

You know, surrogates. The surrogates were in such are still in high demand. So the traditional surrogacy agencies have like two three year waits. And so luckily for me through social media there's. I was like posting. I think it was like in a press interview I was like I want to have kids. So a surrogacy agency elevate who's done a lot of celebrity they do LGBT owned. These guys are fans of mine. They're points people and they're like, oh, we have this amazing agency and we actually have this incredible surrogate we think you'd be perfect for. So kind of out of the blue.

Heather McDonald (63:37)

And was this the first time she'd ever done it?

Brian Kelly (63:39)

No, it was so she was the golden possible. So it was her Third time doing it. So you want someone who's done it before. She was in California, which is a very.

Heather McDonald (63:47)

And you want someone who did it before just because they understand that, you know, that they are carrying this baby and there shouldn't be a tie and they're not gonna have a problem with.

Brian Kelly (63:56)

Yep. So when you're looking for a surrogate, you want someone with a stable family because stress, like you don't want someone who's really going through hard times or doing it for the money or stress. And this and like, like, and you know, this is. She was in California, which is very strong as a single gay dad. I have friends who have done this in Kansas and other states where all it takes is one clerk to just, you know, screw up the birth, you know, birth certificate. So she was California. She had done it before. She's a lesbian, married, kids of her own. Amazing. We like connected.

Heather McDonald (64:27)

And she's just someone who loves being pregnant.

Brian Kelly (64:29)

Loves it.

Heather McDonald (64:29)

And she was, I liked pregnant.

Brian Kelly (64:31)

She was a nurse assistant and doing surrogacy. You know, she made enough money, she put herself through nursing school. Now she's a full time nurse and you know, has kids of her own. So like. And, but at the end of the day, surrogates are doing something because a lot of people love being pregnant. And so she was just like the most incredible surrogate. I got very lucky. I transferred one embryo. My son, he came October of 22, like changed my life. He's the cutest dean.

Heather McDonald (64:58)

Yeah.

Brian Kelly (64:59)

He's been to 16 countries in two years. He's just like, like the joy of my life.

Heather McDonald (65:04)

So when I see you traveling with him and you're like in the little pod of the first class and everything, there's gotta be at least one person with you to film and help, right?

Brian Kelly (65:16)

So I have. Being a single dad who works, I do rotational nannies. So I have two full time nannies that work for me and they just do basically two weeks on, two weeks off. So seven days a week they live with me. My parents will take my son one, usually like one day a week. So the nanny gets time off. But they do, they work 26 weeks a year and they make full time salary. So they basically switch on and off.

Heather McDonald (65:39)

And how did you figure out that routine? I've never heard of that before.

Brian Kelly (65:41)

Yeah, so I hadn't. So originally I had a night nurse and then I just figured it out. So I had part time, you know, nannies. But it's just the scheduling of it because last minute I need to travel.

Heather McDonald (65:52)

And they can see. Yeah.

Brian Kelly (65:53)

And so I. Basically, there are agencies out there who specialize in, like, celebrity families, like entrepreneur families, where you're on the road, jet setting. So these generally are, you know, they're called career nannies or most, you know, college degree and education. A lot of them were teachers, and you can make double what a teacher makes doing this, and you get to travel the world. So I treat my nannies like gold. They fly first class with me. I get them massages. Like, I, you know, that's, you know, you got to take care of the people who are taking care of your kids.

Heather McDonald (66:24)

Of course. Yeah.

Brian Kelly (66:25)

So, yeah, So I. And then I found out about rotational nannies. And to me, I'm like, this is perfect because during the week I'm in New York City a lot. I'm on my farm, I'm traveling. Like, trying to do a weekly schedule in advance is just like chaos, right?

Heather McDonald (66:38)

That is true. You can't have them. Like, I got a home at six to be with my. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so then. And then when did you decide to have another?

Brian Kelly (66:48)

So, you know, I was like, let me just have my son Dean. Traveling the world with him has been amazing. I mean, he. It's, I mean, fatherhood. I mean, you know, parents, you get it. Like, there's just nothing like your child. You know, it's challenging, but, like, seeing him grow and then me having three siblings and just big family, I'm like, yes, it would be easy to have an only child. But, like, I knew I had one other boy embryo. And I'm like, me and my brother are two years different. So I was like, let me just try. And it worked. So Cooper Kelly came into the world in December, and my son Dean is like obsessed with his brother. Kisses his head like, so I'm so excited now to see them. You know, I wait till three months to start traveling, but I think, yeah, Cooper's. I'm going to take them to Thailand for the month of April since I haven't really had a paternity with launching this book six weeks after, so. So. But yeah, it's been just like.

Heather McDonald (67:40)

And what do you love about Thailand?

Brian Kelly (67:41)

I haven't been in years, but Thailand will be one of the biggest destinations because White Lotus just filmed there. So that's coming out. So it's similar to what Lightest did for Sicily. Like, Thailand's going to be. Thailand is a huge destination, but everyone's going to see the beauty of it. I mean, it's stunning. The beaches, the culture, and is It a good deal. It's a good. Once you get there, everything is the hotels like Thailand is. Bangkok is like the hotel capital of the world and it's probably like half as expensive as Italy in the summer. And I think people are just getting so sick of paying like 2,000, $3,000 a night for a hotel. And especially like going to Italy in August. It's like sweltering, it's crowded, it's hot. Like I think people are now starting to think okay, and I pushed people in the book. Don't just go to where everyone else is going. Going Thailand's far. But especially if you use points, you can fly through the Middle east on Emirates or Qatar Airways. I highly recommend you can fly, I mean from la. You want to probably want to go.

Heather McDonald (68:41)

Tell me how to get there. From la.

Brian Kelly (68:43)

From la I think going well and you can do stopovers. So when you use freaking flyer miles, a lot of the airlines you could fly to Japan, stop for four days, get a full Tokyo experience and then Tokyo to Thailand's. I still think like seven hours on a flight but it breaks it up up. But I think the quickest way they don't have non stops LA to, to Bangkok, but going through Hong Kong. Cathay is an amazing airline per pavet, you know.

Heather McDonald (69:07)

Yeah.

Brian Kelly (69:08)

But using frequent flyer miles and then.

Heather McDonald (69:10)

Where will you stay? Will you get a house?

Brian Kelly (69:12)

I will get a house because I have two kids, nannies and stuff. But like the Four Seasons, that's where they filled Four Seasons. Koh Samui. I might do hotels. You know, being in travel I usually get hooked up at hotels. But it's a whole different ballgame now needing like multiple rooms and that gets expensive really quickly.

Heather McDonald (69:30)

Yeah.

Brian Kelly (69:31)

But you know, for people listening if you have points, one of the beauty now there are all these tools and apps that'll do all the thinking for you. So the joy of like AMEX Points and Chase points, it's transferring to their frequent flyer partners. Like Amex Points you can transfer to Asia Miles which is Cathay Pacific's program and redeem for Cathay flights at a really good ratio. But you'd need to know if there's availability. Most people don't want to open up a Cathay Pacific account and learn how to use their award chart. There's a website called Point Me and it's basically like Google flights. It'll tell you there's open flights to fly through Seoul or Tokyo and it does all the heavy lifting for you. And if you have an AMEX card, you go to Point me Amex. And it's free to use this tool tool. And it'll give you live availability on all the partners. And that's where you can get an amazing, you know, value for your points without having to do like hours of research.

Heather McDonald (70:25)

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Brian Kelly (71:38)

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Heather McDonald (71:41)

I could get money back from last year.

Sonja Morgan (71:43)

You could. We'll find.

Heather McDonald (71:44)

Any mistake.

Brian Kelly (71:45)

Could have really used that two years.

Heather McDonald (71:47)

Ago when I dated that mistake for five months.

Brian Kelly (71:50)

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Heather McDonald (72:04)

Okay, here's some other questions from Peter, my points guy. Which cards currently have the best welcome offers?

Brian Kelly (72:12)

Yes. So there are the cards that I really recommend. The Capital One Venture X is really good. And here's a tip. So if you know Amex, a lot of times you can refer people. So if you have an AMEX card or anyone you know has like an Amex, the Amex Gold card is where it's at. Everyone thinks platinum, but Platinum, you know, it's good for getting into lounges. But the amex Gold gives 4 points per dollar on dining and groceries, which, like most families, we spend a lot of money. So my tip is I get the credit cards like Bilt will give you points on rent. So if you're renting, get a Bilt card. But amex Gold is 4x on dining and groceries. And when you think about how much you spend in those categories, earning four points per dollar, like, that's how you keep the points rolling in. So many people I know will be like, look, I've got my Amex Platinum and you're paying for dinner. And I'm like, you're earning one point when that Gold card. And so Capital One Chase Sapphire Reserve. So I would say, like Chase Sapphire Reserve, Capital One Venture X, Amex Gold and Bilt are like the core cards that are like, no brainers.

Heather McDonald (73:14)

And what about your credit score? Do you have to have a certain high credit score to get these great cards?

Brian Kelly (73:20)

So in the book I talk about this because credit cards will open up. It's so lucrative. I mean, in the US you can literally get 100,000 points, $1,000 just for getting a credit card. And what most people don't realize is getting. So you need to be able to pay your bills off in full every month. So if you're paying 20% interest, you're losing the value of all those points. So to play this points game, I want to be very clear. You have to just, like, if you're using cash, pay it off in full every month, avoid paying interest. But your credit, generally the credit score is out of 850. And if you have over 700, you'll get most of these cards. And as long as you don't have any negative missed bills. But the more credit cards you get, the more available credit you have and the less you're using, your score actually goes up. I have 28 credit cards. I've got an 8, 10. I mean, anything above 750, it doesn't really matter.

Heather McDonald (74:10)

Do you bring all your cards with you?

Brian Kelly (74:12)

And I've got my George Costanza wallet. I actually have a Gucci, like, passport with like 20 card slots. I got it at duty free once. So I have my credit card. I don't travel with them. I only use like five. You know, for dining, I use one card. But I have, in the book, I talk about points are one thing and points are really valuable, but also perks. Perks. I cannot stress enough to people. Like, so lounge access. But when airlines cancel your flights, Airlines are cheap and they don't owe you money. That's what people don't realize. There are no passenger rights in America, right? Unlike Europe, if you're canceled, they owe you €300. But in the US it's like, screw off, you'll get a refund maybe in six weeks. But a lot of credit cards, what people don't realize, if you use the right credit card, like an Amex Platinum, the Chase Sapphire, if your flight's delayed six hours immediately, you get $500 a person to spend at restaurants. You can take your family to a resort down the road for a 10 hour delay and be spending and getting meals all paid for by your credit card company. You can don't wait in line for a Motel 6 voucher from an angry American Airlines agent when your credit card will pay to put you up in a suite at the Westin at the airport.

Heather McDonald (75:22)

So if I was in that situation and I know I bought my card with whatever my United and they're like, sorry, it's been canceled. There's some crazy thing going on, even if it's weather, whatever. So then I call the 1-800number and I say, and then they look it up and they're like, okay, go ahead.

Brian Kelly (75:38)

Yeah, so there's usually it's like six hour delay or some credit cards have a 12 hour or a cancellation where you have to spend the night. It depends on the card and everyone listening. You can google your credit card that you have and it's called flight delay and cancellation coverage and you just keep your receipts. You don't even need to call right then and there. You spend, put it on your credit card, put the hotel, the Ubers and it says anything necessary. You can buy stuff at the store, you know, makeup, deodorant, whatever, and you get reimbursed for it. You submit a claim and as long as like the flight delay is, you know, corresponding to your coverage and they just reimburse you. Same thing for this is, this is crazy. People don't realize if you buy gorgeous pair of like sunglasses, you leave it at a hotel or you, you drop them off the side of a boat, you're new within 90 days, almost anything the credit card companies will give you it back. Even if you lose it, break it, it's stolen. It's called purchase protection. So my son just took a Sharpie and drew all over a $1,300 Jonathan Adler chair. I just bought instead of. I just called Capital One, filed a claim and they're sending me a brand.

Heather McDonald (76:43)

New chair because you bought the chair.

Brian Kelly (76:45)

With Capital One purchase protection and this is a game changer. I lost a Moncler jacket in Iceland once. I was filming. You just call up Amex, they just take it off your bill. It's crazy. And it's up to like $10,000 per occurrence.

Sonja Morgan (76:58)

So this is like, wow.

Heather McDonald (76:59)

I did not know that because I have lost and left things in hotels so much in all my years.

Brian Kelly (77:05)

If you bought it within 90 days, usually, or six months, depending on the card, but your credit card will give you money for all of this. It's crazy. So even if you know during COVID if you got a villa and so many people that summer you prepaid for villas in Europe. I know so many people, you call up Chase and say, hey, technically it wasn't in policy, but it never hurts to ask. That's why these points people and what I teach people. There's a whole chapter when things go wrong with travel. Flight delay. You show up to a hotel and they don't have your room. So the book is 15 chapters, but you don't have to read it front to the back. There's a whole chapter on having kids. So everything I learned traveling with kids. What airlines will let you bring a car seat? Which one's one? What your rights are. Like, it's really a resource guide to give people.

Heather McDonald (77:52)

I saw a little video of a guy, and also they had the music going, but he had this little baggie. And this single mom was. I mean, maybe she wasn't. She was a mom alone. She didn't have a partner with her and a baby. And the baby's crying and stuff as they do on the plane. And she had made these little baggies of treats with a little thing. I'm so sorry. It's our first time traveling. Maybe you could enjoy this. And so then he went up and just was like, I want you to know it's okay. And you know anyone that's. Look, that's life. Get your. You know, there's babies and they deserve to be in first class and all that stuff of like, you know, baby adults only, first class. I'm like, that's an impossible thing to do, by the way.

Brian Kelly (78:37)

I'm.

Heather McDonald (78:38)

It's never going to happen.

Brian Kelly (78:38)

I will die on this hill. In my millions of miles of travel. The most annoying ass travelers hands down are drunk adults. Like, I have been bothered more. I mean, I saw a grown man collapse on a flight recently. Blackout. He was waiting for the bathroom, collapsed into this woman's like, pod. I thought he was gonna knock the screen out. Like, oh, my God, gets Back up. I mean, yes, babies cry, but put your headphones on. In the book, control what you can control. Put your noise canceling headphones on. Read a book like, shit's gonna go wrong when traveling. It's your mentality. And so many people choose to lose and are harried and stre. Like, actually, George Clooney gave both noise canceling headphones to everyone on his flight when he flew with his kid. And like, that's nice, but you don't need to do that. Like, there's so much like child shaming in America. Most other countries, when you travel Europe is so much more child friendly. Like, you don't need to feel like you're doing something bad by traveling with a child. Like, we were all children.

Heather McDonald (79:36)

I know, that's so true. Now this, this is my biggest fear when I see this. And that's when you see a video or you hear about how everyone has been trapped on the tarmac in the plane going on like six hours. Either they haven't never taken off or they landed and they couldn't get off. Have you ever been in that situation?

Brian Kelly (80:01)

Yes. Not six hours, but living in New York City, there's always delays. You're always gonna be taxiing for hours. But now there is a rule, like a three hour rule, so they have to go back to the gate. But three hours is a long time. Which is why I tell people, always bring snacks, always bring water. Like, because some airlines are really naughty.

Heather McDonald (80:23)

Oh my God, now I feel like we just went on one and they don't even give you.

Brian Kelly (80:27)

They don't give you anything.

Heather McDonald (80:28)

So, yeah, I think you gotta have your water and the refill. All the refill places are great because that used to be such an expense to be like, I'm not gonna buy a water.

Brian Kelly (80:35)

Yeah, you can get filtered water now.

Heather McDonald (80:37)

And bring the food.

Brian Kelly (80:38)

And even like the WI fi is never gonna work when you really need it. Don't like, always just prepare, you know, that's why I pay. I'm still so stupid with like itunes, but I'll always have a library of shows on my laptop or iPad.

Heather McDonald (80:50)

So.

Brian Kelly (80:51)

Because even in first class, you're gonna have this. You know, you're gonna finally get up there and your screen's gonna be broken. You know what I mean? So always plan for what you can control.

Heather McDonald (80:59)

Yes, yes, that's a good one. Is there a particular best time to apply for the popular travel credit cards based on offer history?

Brian Kelly (81:09)

Yeah, so like, a lot of the credit card companies will have like limited time Offers you never really know when they're going to come and go. Also, I recommend so there's a thepointsguy.com cardmatch so there's a tool if you've never had an AMEX card, amex. The credit card companies are now doing more and more personalized special offers. They know if you have good credit, you've never had an Amex, they'll give you 150,000, 250,000 points. So before you apply for a public offer, always Google on the Internet just be like, what is the best offer on the AMEX Platinum right now? This card match tool does not run your credit, but you can put in and see if there's any special offers. So see if you've got any special targeted offers and even open up your like snail mail from Amex or the other. Sometimes they'll send really rich, you know, to get you to get a credit card.

Heather McDonald (81:56)

So is there any kind of scam to be aware of or mistakes?

Brian Kelly (82:01)

So mistakes are. So a lot of times the credit card companies will send you, oh, upgrade to this card. And so the problem is if you upgrade, usually they won't give you the big signup bonus, like 100,000 points. But you can apply often as a new cardholder for a credit card and get the signup bonus. So don't. If you're listening to this and you're like, oh, I want to get the AMEX Gold. Let me just change my, you know, Platinum to a Gold sometimes. Or if you had a green card, it behooves you to like apply new for a gold card instead of just upgrading because you could forego that hundred thousand point signup bonus. So, you know, in the book, I have a whole chapter on earning points. By the way. Credit cards are just one piece of this shopping portal. So if you never, ever, ever go directly to a retailer's website on the Internet. So the airlines and credit cards have their own shopping portals where they'll give you extra miles. You just click a link. So if you're going to go to Saks, Never go to saks.com you want to go. There's a website, cashbackmonitor.com you'd put in Saks or whatever the retailer you're shopping at. It'll tell you all the airlines and credit cards or even cash back you can get for that purchase. You click through that shopping portal and then you get extra miles in addition to your credit card points. We call that double dipping. So for all your online shopping, all your back to School shopping, you could be getting tons. And sometimes it's, you know, even Apple purchases six American Airlines miles per dollar speaker spent to get all your Apple products. So think about, you know, in those American airline miles are very valuable. So, like, there's all these different ways. If you take Uber, everyone listening, you should be getting free Marriott points. All you have to do is link your Marriott once to your Uber account. That's the top way I earn Marriott points. So I get free hotel stays for the same exact Uber I would be doing. But you click once to attach your Marriott and you'll have free points just rolling in after each route.

Heather McDonald (83:52)

So besides being the special credit card person to get the upgrade at the hotel, is there any other thing to say or do to get that better room when you arrive?

Brian Kelly (84:04)

Well, the first thing you want to do is not book through online travel agencies. So if you're booking through certain, you know, like the Expedias of the world, they hate those bookings because they have to pay Expedia or the others a huge commission. So on a totem pole of guests staying, like you're at the bottom because when you book directly with the hotel, they're making way more money off of you. You're a better client. Okay, so I'm not saying to never book on an ota, but price check and often the hotel, when booking direct will give you the same rate or better. And in that case, book direct with the hotel because if the hotel is sold out, they literally will walk. Those guests who book through online travel agencies give you the worst rooms. This is the only exception to this is a luxury hotel. So many people I know will say, oh, I want to go to Four Seasons Maui. You go to Four Seasons website. No, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Don't do that. You want to book luxury hotels through luxury travel agents because you're going to get way more perks than usually directly on the hotel website. And these luxury travel advisors are worth their weight in gold because they book tons of clients at these hotels. So think about it. If it's your honeymoon or whatever, get a travel advisor. They're not going to charge you anything extra, usually because they're getting the commission, but they will call that hotel, they will let them know it's your honeymoon. And if anything goes wrong at a hotel, you kind of have to go to the front desk. Hey, my room sucks. It's not really ocean view. If you book directly with the hotel, they're like, well, sorry, that's what it is. If you go to a Top notch travel advisor who books tons of clients at that hotel. Those travel advisors, you better believe they pick up the phone, they're talking to the GM and they're like, if you don't take care of Heather and her family now, we're not going to send other people to your you. So when you have the backing of a top notch advisor, you know, virtuoso is like the creme de la creme of travel advisors. Plus they can do so much for you. If your airlines screw up your travel advisors, you don't have to wait in the long line at the airport. You can call your top travel agency and they can rebook you on another partner because they have full access to the airline. So even if you have to pay for the traffic, if you're spending a lot of money on trips, safaris roar. Africa is like the best safari agency. They will do everything for you, especially traveling within Africa. Flights are canceled. They'll have people waiting in the airports for you if anything goes wrong. Whereas I think a lot of people are like, travel agents are a dying breed. False. They're actually now more relevant than ever. And getting good ones can totally elevate your trips, save you time and hassle. And they know the ins and outs and when anything goes wrong, you call them and they'll fix it in a heartbeat.

Heather McDonald (86:32)

Wow. Well, I love this. Now, now, are you looking for love or are you just full dad mode? I mean, are guys into finding a built in family or what are you guys?

Brian Kelly (86:44)

I think there are. I think there are. I think a lot of guys want to have families, but I mean, it's stupidly expensive. Like, I don't understand how. I mean, I'm very lucky. I have, I've done well in life, but my God, like just the surrogacy, it's like 200k plus plus and then kids.

Heather McDonald (86:58)

So now wait, did you use the same surrogacy surrogate for the second child?

Brian Kelly (87:01)

So she, this was her third time doing it with me. And her wife at times was like, sorry, she's closed for business. And she was, she didn't want to do it again. So I found through elevate they got me an incredible. My second surrogate was a queen. She was actually a nurse practitioner in a neonatal nicu. So she takes care of babies for a living. She was the best surrogate. We're super close. I was like, my son was born over the holidays. We were at her family's house. We're really tight. So I got very, I've had two amazing surrogates. They are angels on earth.

Heather McDonald (87:40)

And then the egg donor was for the all from the one person.

Brian Kelly (87:43)

I did a retrieval. So when I got my egg donor, I did a like a month's worth of eggs that we retrieved and then I made embryos. So I had like seven, seven top notch embryos. Like on ice right now. Like I had two boys, used both of them and they worked. Thank God the first time each I was very fortunate. Dr. Dhaneshman is my IVF doctor in San Diego Fertility Clinic. The best like San Diego Fertility Clinic elevate surrogacy agency. They have been so amazing.

Heather McDonald (88:14)

And so how did you choose your surrogate? Not surrogate, sorry. How did you choose your egg donor?

Brian Kelly (88:19)

It was kind of fun. I mean I would. There's a lot of things you can look for. Education for me was like, I wanted healthy and where possible, like, you know, mental illness, you try to. Some people will list their health histories. Like, I tried where possible to kind of weed that out because I see how challenging that is. And I do know that there is a lot of hereditary. So if I'm going to try to help my kids. So I was looking for like healthy. They tell you their parents, their grandparents, how they died. But then I think, I mean, I wanted beautiful and sort of kind of look like me since my kids will be. I didn't want people to look at them and having them look so striking and be like, oh, what's your mom? What's your dad? You know, like. So anyway, that's interesting.

Heather McDonald (89:03)

Cause my friend who her son is 19 and so she was. It was called single mom by choice back then. And it was, you know, not as many people were doing it. And I remember she said I chose a sperm donor who looked like me because I'm like, I have one, I'm gonna have one kid and I want the child to look like me.

Brian Kelly (89:22)

So I think it's natural. You kind of get protective when you're so. Yeah. So you know, she's beautiful, healthy. And at the end of the day, I just like, you look at these profiles, you can sit there all day long. But I just went with my gut. I was like this. She loved animals, rode horses, seemed cool. I was like, this is just someone I connect.

Heather McDonald (89:41)

Did you. Is it the same thing? Because like my other friend like bought the whole lot of the sperm.

Brian Kelly (89:46)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (89:46)

So were you able to have her then not donate anymore?

Brian Kelly (89:50)

No. So she had donated to others. I didn't. I don't know if you can like take them off the market.

Heather McDonald (89:54)

Oh.

Brian Kelly (89:55)

So. But I got like a month's worth. So I had like seven embryos, which they say you want like three embryos for every child you want. And luckily for me, I had a high six. If you do like genetic testing to the embryos, it increases your chance because they will actually rank all your embryos. They know how to like see the healthiest one. So I was able to use the very top notch embryos which dramatically increases the approval rate when, you know, some embryos are just not meant to be viable. So when, when you do the analysis. So yeah. So I have some other, I have other embryos on ice. We'll see. I'm very happy with my two boys. Very busy. I'm 41. But yeah, dating. It's just, I mean with this book launch, two kids, it's hard to like really create space. But I'm always open. We'll see.

Heather McDonald (90:45)

Yeah, probably gonna happen now that you're, you know, it's always hard to find.

Brian Kelly (90:49)

But I find I have had no trouble dating. I find people. Cause I.

Heather McDonald (90:52)

But I'm saying the right one was gonna come when you're not like even exactly where you're like, I don't even. Or not. Or maybe you don't maybe that you wanna live that single life. Like I think, I think for all my friends that have gone through some horrific co parenting, I've been saying for a long time, like, Andy Cohen did it right. Like then when the love comes, the love comes. And if it goes away, it's not taking your kid every other weekend. You know, it's like, it's something to consider. If you're at the place of making the choice to be a parent. Don't rush in with someone and go, let's. I need a partner for this. Because I'm at this age or stage in life, like, because it's a lot easier to get divorced than to co parent with somebody.

Brian Kelly (91:34)

I go to bed like knowing my kids will always be mine. 100%. Nothing like that to me is like, takes the stress out of. Yeah. Being with someone that you're rushing into. I, I avoided a near disaster, you know, so, you know, people are always like, you're so brave. I mean, I'm like, I've, I just know I'm a good dad and I have great family friends. It takes a village. I have great nannies. So I love the setup that I have. I have zero. I push people to. A lot of people are successful, busy, can't find the right Spouse, but want to have kids. So I highly recommend.

Heather McDonald (92:09)

Yeah, I think if it's in your heart where you're like, my whole life I knew. I remember when I was just single and I'd come home from doing standup and I'd watch reruns of Jerry Springer. And I remember just being in this bed, I had no boyfriend or nothing. I was like 27 and I was like, I know I want to be a mom. If I never meet somebody, I'm still going to be a mom. And then there's other people that are like, I don't even know if I really want it. I'm like, that's a gift too.

Brian Kelly (92:34)

That's a gift.

Heather McDonald (92:35)

If you're not dying for it, then don't do it. Because you'll never know. You'll never know what you're missing. You won't. And the thing, when people go, what's the biggest thing? I go, the biggest thing is when you are a parent, you are going to worry about someone till the day you die. It'll never change. It'll go up and down, but it'll like hit you or you'll see something. And if you're not with your kid or then you all of a sudden imagine like the worst. And that is what a non parent walking will never experience. And that's good. That to me is the worst part. Of course there's all the great stuff, but the worst part is just that forever. There's just like, you know, there's always going to be some anxiety if you're a parent. It's just an impossibility.

Brian Kelly (93:23)

All my boys are with me all the time. They haven't done school yet. So I'm like living in this happy bubble. They come with me wherever I go. We're on the farm. It's like. But once they start like going in and like becoming friends, and then you just have to give up control where they're like, just hope they're making good decisions like that. But I, you know, parent. You just learn to deal with every phase of it, right?

Heather McDonald (93:43)

Every prepare for it. Sometimes you're like, oh, I wish my kids was more social or less social. And then you see an awful thing that a terrible thing happened at a high school party and you're like, well, now I'm glad my kid wasn't that social. Like, it just, it's like, it's just, you know. But I do think it continues to get better. I mean, my kids are now grown and I love it. And I.

Brian Kelly (94:08)

What was your Favorite age, if you could choose, like, 0 to 18.

Heather McDonald (94:11)

My dad always said his favorite was 9. And I think 9 is a great age because I remember, like, sitting across from my son, like, getting yogurt, and it was like just the two of us, and we were having such a fun conversation and, like, so they can, like, get their own shit together, they can take their own shower, they can pull their own suitcase, but then you can have this conversation and they're still into you and they still have to ask to do things. But of course, the cuddly wuddly kissy time is something that if someone said if you could jump back and have one day, oh, I'd want one to be like eight to 10 months. And then I'd want the other one to be like three.

Brian Kelly (95:00)

Three? Yeah.

Heather McDonald (95:00)

Like, I'd want to jump back to that time of when my kids are three years apart. So, like that and like, go to.

Brian Kelly (95:08)

The park eight to ten month juicy.

Heather McDonald (95:10)

And like, make, you know, make the kid lunch and take the nap and like, all of that stuff, you know. But it's exhausting too. And I know that, like, the reason I think I don't remember a lot of it is because it was, like, sleep deprived. And when I think about, like, coming home from, like, working on Chelsea lately and still having to do, like, homework, food, bedtime, make up a bedtime story, do a, you know, the bathing and all that stuff. And then all of a sudden I got to a place where I was like, oh my God, I actually have the evening to myself. That's like a weird thing too.

Brian Kelly (95:45)

I'm making up the best. I'm deep in that now, my two and a half year old. And he's, I'll make up a really creative story. He's like, another, another. And I'm like, there were so many creative moments.

Heather McDonald (95:55)

Like, how many more?

Brian Kelly (95:56)

And I'll. I'll say something I said like a month ago. He's like, no, no, you told me that, like, geez, I gotta really be creative here. He's like, holding me accountable.

Heather McDonald (96:03)

I think you should, when you do it, you should, like, record them. Because I wish I would have done that because I feel like I came up with some really good ones. And not that I was, you know, need to do a children's book, but like, there were some really fun creative ones. And then one day they just go to bed and they don't ask you for that. And at first it's like, oh, my God, this is amazing.

Brian Kelly (96:21)

Yeah.

Heather McDonald (96:22)

And then one day you're like, oh, that's over with now. It's really, it's great though. I'm really happy for you and I'm so excited to read the book and I know my husband and I and my son is like super into like finance and money and he's getting his, getting his own credit going and stuff. So I'm excited to share.

Brian Kelly (96:40)

So important for the parents out there with teens, get them started young. Like I talk a lot about it in the book, but even just adding your child as an additional cardholder on your credit, well, they can inherit your entire lifetime of good credit, which allows them to start, start setting their own, getting them their own card, making sure they're responsible. I made so many mistakes. I think a lot of young people do because they're not taught this in school or you know, I'm sure in your, in wealthy areas kids are just given credit cards and not really told how to responsibly use them. So I think credit education and setting your kids up for success so that when they graduate college they don't need you to co sign they understand how to pay bills. Like I think that is like such a service to kids to like, you know, give them the responsibility and not just have everything handed to them.

Heather McDonald (97:26)

Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much. Brian Kelly's book is how to Win at Travel, founder of the Points Guy follow. How do they follow you on. On Instagram and all?

Brian Kelly (97:38)

Personally I'm at Brian Kelly, so I share all my travels and tips, but the company's at the Points Guy, the Points guys. Our website, we have a daily, I write a weekly newsletter where we break down all the best deals and tips so.

Heather McDonald (97:50)

And then you're going to tell us when you get a glimps glimpse of Taylor with a bump.

Brian Kelly (97:54)

Yeah. And that's some juicy scoop.

Heather McDonald (97:57)

Yeah. All right, thank you.