#347 - Area 52 on UFO Tech, Project Stargate & Strangest Encounters | Chris Ramsay

Summary

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Julian Dorey Podcast: Episode #347

Guest: Chris Ramsay
Theme: UFO Tech, Project Stargate & Strangest Encounters
Release Date: October 21, 2025

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Overview

This episode welcomes magician and UFO investigator Chris Ramsay for an expansive, deep-dive discussion into the worlds of UFO sightings, abduction accounts, high-strangeness, and the overlap with psychic phenomena explored in CIA programs like Project Stargate. Ramsay and host Julian Dorey reflect on famous cases, theories about alien motives, the reliability of human memory, and even draw parallels between magic and the “engineering of memory” among experiencers of the phenomenon. The episode is a rich tapestry of skepticism, open-minded inquiry, wild speculation, and the persistent mystery of the UFO question.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Travis Walton Case & UFO Consistencies

[00:00–05:00]

• Chris recounts the Travis Walton abduction (1975, Snowflake, Arizona): Walton and his logging crew encounter a UFO; Walton is struck by a beam and vanishes for five days.
• Under hypnosis, Walton remembers waking on a table surrounded by “bulbous-headed” beings in orange jumpsuits—human-sized tables, “white-orange jumpsuits, jacked, perfect specimens.”
  • Notable Quote:
    "He gets really close to it, starts hearing a noise as if it's like powering up. What he remembers is he wakes up on this table, he sees this bright light, he sees these bulbous heads hovering over him." —Chris Ramsay [00:00]
• Ramsay highlights consistency in global UFO/abduction accounts, even before the internet could have cross-pollinated details.
• The Zimbabwe school encounter (1994) is discussed: children and teachers report small beings, communicating telepathically with warnings about humanity’s future.
  • Notable Quote:
    "The communication specifically being about how, you know, you humans have no idea what you’re capable of or, you know, basically like themes of don’t blow yourselves up, like as a human race, et cetera." —Julian Dorey [03:02]

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2. Why Children? The “Testing Humanity” Hypothesis

[05:53–07:07]

• The Zimbabwe event occurred at an international school: Ramsay speculates this could be a deliberate “contact test” for humanity, as opposed to landing on the White House lawn.
  • Notable Quote:
    "If you were to sort of test humanity on, you know, contact and how—what would happen if contact happened? That’s how you would do it.” —Chris Ramsay [06:10]

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3. Simulation, Systems, and Theories on Alien Behavior

[07:07–12:07]

• Ramsay floats multiple hypotheses:
  • Aliens simulate different scenarios (visibility, crash retrieval, etc.) to see how humanity reacts.
  • The “system” idea: UFOs as a planetary immune system, responding to wars, nukes, or significant events (e.g., shutting down nukes, genetic sampling).
  • “Von Neumann probe” analogy—aliens might use advanced probes or agents, not necessarily travel themselves.
  • Abductions as part of simulating or maintaining planetary ecologies: collection of DNA, samples, and genetic upgrades.
    • Notable Quote:
      "Maybe this is also just part of the system where it’s like this sort of eco zoo... if ever the scales are tipped too far, it would come out, shut down the nukes." —Chris Ramsay [10:02]
  • UFO interiors often described as barren, lacking controls, suggesting a non-human-centric or “psionically linked” operation.

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4. Patterns in Human Memory, Magic, and UFO Testimony

[23:40–28:39]

• Ramsay, as a magician, draws parallels between magic’s “engineering of memory” and the unreliable, malleable nature of UFO witness accounts.
• Experiencers embellish or round their stories, not necessarily to lie, but to convey emotion, awe, and credibility—humanizing what is, ultimately, ineffable.
  • Notable Quote:
    "If you’ve told it more than once, you’re making that story better as you go along..." —Chris Ramsay [28:07]

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5. Objective Evidence & Skepticism: Polygraphs & Multiple Witnesses

[57:36–59:40]

• Walton’s case: all seven logging crew members passed polygraphs, unusual under stress; supports core elements of the account.
• Multiple witnesses (kids, adults, teachers)—but patterns of slight variation lend authenticity.
  • Notable Quote:
    "That’s seven people who are not trained to sort of fool those machines... the odds are one of them is going to fail if they’re bullshitting, right?" —Chris Ramsay [57:36]

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6. Changing Alien Images: Nordics to Grays to Future Humans

[61:28–64:04]

• A shift historically from tall, blond “space brothers” (Nordics) to genderless grays noted; “time traveler” as a possible explanation (Michael P. Masters’ theory).
• As genetics and fertility decline on Earth, “future human” visitors might be seeking optimal DNA from periods of greatest genetic diversity (1950–2000s).
• Ramsay connects high strangeness stories (e.g., orange-jumpsuit beings described years apart) to the possibility of time travel, panspermia, or persistent ultra-terrestrial presence.

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7. Project Stargate, Remote Viewing, and the Limits of Psychic Data

[127:18–146:49]

• Ramsay undergoes and documents training in remote viewing (with Nelson Dellis and Project Stargate’s Joe McMoneagle).
• Describes the controlled, double-blind methods—sometimes remarkable matches, many times not, but hits can be uncanny.
• Stargate: of 600 trainees, only six excelled (all had synesthesia); McMoneagle’s major “hits” included finding hostages, nuclear sites, downed aircraft.
  • Notable Quote:
    "He got five first place matches out of six during his tests, which is unheard of." —Chris Ramsay [132:03]
• Emphasizes: remote viewing was just one “constellation” of intelligence sources, never used in isolation.
• Meditation and mass consciousness experiments (e.g., crime reduction) hint at “psi” phenomena, but Ramsay is careful to cite magician’s skepticism and need for controls.

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8. Magic and the Perception of Reality

[94:39–99:42]

• Ramsay discusses magician methods, skepticism, and how knowledge of illusion breeds both open inquiry and an urge to debunk.
• He cautions that just because something can be faked (e.g., blindfold acts) doesn’t mean it isn’t real—but magicians’ insights are vital for controlled parapsychology experiments.
• “Mixed mediumship”: sometimes magicians experience seemingly “real” magic or synchronicity while in performance flow states, suggesting a possible unknown psychic element.
  • Notable Story:
    Ramsay recounts a card/memory trick in Spain that accidentally dovetails into a genuine synchronicity, blurring the line between trick and anomaly [155:39].

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9. Worldview Expansion, Open-Mindedness & Discernment

[52:20–54:54, 116:31–119:10]

• Ramsay promotes a nuanced approach: don’t ignore data, don’t force new information into old models, but be open to expanding one’s worldview.
• Warns against binary, “all-or-nothing” thinking—nuance is key, and humility in not knowing is necessary for genuine inquiry.
  • Notable Quote:
    "Just because you have an explanation for something, that doesn’t mean that’s the explanation. There could be something you’re not thinking of." —Chris Ramsay [115:58]

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10. Creativity, Motivation & The Artist’s Journey

[102:11–106:02]

• Ramsay shares his transition from a massively successful magic YouTube channel (7M+ subs) into UFO research and Area 52 content, driven by a need to follow creative fire.
• “You can’t fake curiosity.” The happiest, most meaningful paths follow authentic, selfish creative pursuits, not external praise or manufactured relevance.
  • Notable Quote:
    "I’m doing it out of an incredible—I’m doing it completely selfishly to feed my own creativity..." —Chris Ramsay [108:25]

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11. The Role of Noise, Misinformation & Disclosure

[169:31–175:43]

• Concern: Will an overflow of unvetted stories, grifters, and drama “drown out” the valuable signals, making public belief and meaningful discovery even harder?
  • Ramsay: As long as society is talking about it—pro or con—that’s cultural progress. The genie can’t be put back in the bottle.
  • Notable Quote:
    "As long as you bring it up, you’re keeping it alive." —Chris Ramsay [171:50]

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12. Religion, Conspiracy, and the Limits of Human Control

[177:18–181:17]

• Can religion and alien contact coexist? Ramsay thinks organized religion would adapt rather than collapse.
• Warns against “master conspiracy” thinking—human fallibility, competing incentives, and accidental outcomes create the illusion of grand, orchestrated control.
  • Notable Quote:
    "It’s probably more just a lot of really foul stuff where you meet a lawmaker and you go, oh, he’s—he’s dumb. Like, how could he keep his mouth shut about anything?" —Chris Ramsay [179:53]

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13. Gatekeepers & Secrets: Why the UFO Truth Stays Elusive

[181:47–184:29]

• Some secrets get kept for patriotic, psychological, or threat-induced reasons, much as the Manhattan Project was kept secret.
• Gatekeeping may be done for "the greater good," but also prompts the question: “Do people deserve to know the truth?”
  • Notable Quote:
    "If you had a baby show up with a shotgun... get the shotgun away from him."—Chris Ramsay [184:07]
• “Maybe the truth is being kept because the consequences of disclosure are unpredictable or dangerous.”

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Most Memorable Quotes

• "You can’t fake curiosity." —Julian Dorey [110:26]
• "If you were a time traveler looking for the best point in all of history to grab something, it wouldn’t be now, it would have been during this little pocket...maybe between the 50s and the 2000s..." —Chris Ramsay [66:55]
• "I think everybody’s road to disclosure is different. I think it’s a journey. I think it’s an ontological shift that happens over time." —Chris Ramsay [55:52]

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Timed Segment Highlights

| Timestamp | Segment Topic | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–05:00 | Travis Walton case; recurring abduction archetypes | | 06:10–07:07 | “Testing humanity” via international school event | | 10:01–12:13 | The “system” theory for UFOs & planetary defense | | 23:40–28:39 | Magic/memory parallels; witness reliability | | 31:26–41:58 | Deep-dive: Walton’s experience & corroborating cases | | 94:39–99:42 | Magician’s skepticism; how magic can explain (but not dismiss) psi | | 127:18–146:49 | Remote viewing & Project Stargate | | 157:16–163:57 | Sleight-of-hand demonstration live on air | | 169:31–175:43 | UFO disclosure, misinformation, and “signal vs noise” | | 177:18–181:17 | Religion, conspiracies, and the reality of government | | 181:47–184:29 | Gatekeeping, secrecy, & why disclosure is hard |

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Notable Threads & Takeaways

• Consistency and Variation: Across decades and continents, core UFO/abduction archetypes repeat, but personal deviations in stories actually support authenticity.
• Skepticism and Open-Mindedness: Ramsay bridges the two as both magician and inquirer, advocating for honest data collection—and not weaponizing explanations as dismissive tools.
• Societal Readiness: True “ontological shock” is generational and gradual; it might take multiple generations to reframe public consciousness to accept the UFO question.
• Magic as Analogy: Key insights into memory, expectation, and perception from the world of magic find resonance in how society processes the high-strangeness of UFO reports.
• Moving the Needle: Meaningful progress is seen in the persistent, public discussion—even if it is muddied—toward normalizing what was once taboo.

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Final Thoughts

This conversation is a tour de force of modern UFOlogy, the psychology of belief, the cultural power of story, and the humility required to sit with mystery. Ramsay and Dorey blend the performer’s skepticism with the experiencer’s wonder, making this episode an insightful resource for anyone wrestling with the unknown—either in the skies above, or the depths of their own worldview.

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Transcript

[Chris Ramsey]

There is another case, 1975, November 5th, in Snowflake, Arizona. They were driving home, they all pile up in the truck and they see this giant ufo. Travis, being really bold and curious, gets really close to it, starts hearing a noise as if it's like powering up. What he remembers is he wakes up on this table, he sees this bright light, he sees these bulbous heads hovering over him. But I did ask him this question if his feet were like hanging off the table. And he goes, no. So it's a human sized table, which I thought was interesting. There's a case, 1954, Jesse roasted, describes the same beings, white orange jumpsuits, jacked, perfect specimens. So I went down that rabbit hole, ended up Speaking with Joe McMonagle, who's the first accepted remote viewer that they hired in the psychic spy program in the 70s during Project Stargate to study the stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

CIA.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What would happen? Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge, huge help. Thank you. All right, you were just telling me this off camera, Chris, but there's more to the Zimbabwe story than even I know. We were talking about the 1994 sighting and everything.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And you said there was happening like the night before.

[Chris Ramsey]

There was, yeah. There's a lot of sightings night before. You know, Randall Nickerson did a great job on, on the, what is it called? The aerial phenomenon. Great movie. Check it out. I would highly recommend watching that. He was so close to everybody involved, you know, with Emily Trim, who is, you know, sadly passed away not too long ago. He was very close with her and close everybody there. But yeah, he would, he interviewed a pilot as well. I think you can check this out on their YouTube channel. I don't think it made the cut of the movie, but the pilot talks about like them picking something up on the radar as well that kind of moves across the radar and they're like, ah, it's probably a glitch or whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

The night before these kids saw it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, there was, there was stuff going on in space the night before, but there was also space debris reentering orbit. And I think that a lot of debunkers and a lot of people who were looking for something turned to that. But every other day we get something, you know, reentering orbit. So. Yeah, but yeah, that and the fact that, yeah, a lot of people, you know, saw some stuff the night before. On top of that, there is a, a giant uranium mine close by as well. So.

[Joe Rogan]

So uranium mine right there.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, that's.

[Joe Rogan]

That's nice and convenient.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. So it seems.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, where the aliens want with uranium?

[Chris Ramsey]

I don't know, maybe they just want to know what we want with uranium.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I think. You know, they're just studying us where.

[Chris Ramsey]

They'Re maybe squirrels or ants. Yeah. I mean, they're like, don't play with that. Don't play it. What are you doing?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's the case. That was the one that very early on in me really thinking about this stuff made me go, whoa. Because you have a lot of kids.

[Chris Ramsey]

Kids, man.

[Joe Rogan]

Now kids, you know, listen, there's always some sort of explanation that could say the other side's true, but when you look at how they describe potentially encountering those ets, you know, out hopping on the logs, just off where their school campus was there in Zimbabwe, they. And the consistency of all of them describing it and then the patterns that they go through, like the telepathic nature of the communication, the communication specifically being about how, you know, you humans have no idea what you're capable of or, you know, basically like themes of don't blow yourselves up, like as a human race, et cetera, the size of the beings, you know, in the three foot area, the way they looked. This is all pre Internet era. So it's not like people could be on like Reddit threads and like do copycat shit in that way. And when you look at all the different sightings around the world, across the continents, everywhere, the ones I'm thinking of are pretty much every continent except Antarctica that I'm aware of. Although there's a lot of stories from Antarctica. It's like when you look at all those sightings From World War II on, the patterns of what they describe are very, very similar. And that's what gives me pause because I'm like, okay, I know all these people didn't like come together in a group in a chat room somewhere in fucking 1971 when, you know, this is happening over a lot of different years. Again, all pre Internet.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Rua in Zimbabwe, you know, there's a lot of really interesting things there to look at as well. So not only were there children witnesses, there were teachers that witnessed that stuff too, you know, and people forget that there were adults that just were afraid to come forward. But there were way more witnesses than were documented in the documentaries. Yeah, a lot of people didn't want to come forward. And one thing that I like is you look at the drawings and they're not all exactly alike. Now, upon initial inspection, you might think that that is. You know, that leads. Oh, maybe they're lying. But actually, for me, it tells me that they're telling the truth. Because when you remember something, if everybody remembers it exactly the way it happened, that's a script, right. And this is like. There's just enough deviation between the stories where you're like, no, there's clearly. You know, the fundamental story here seems to be true.

[Joe Rogan]

There was also. I think it's the principal of the school is someone high up in the school later came forward, years later, apologizing because she didn't believe them.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And once she had seen all the evidence that they presented and obviously, like, the studies that have been done by Dr. John Mack from Harvard and all that, she was like, oh, my God. Like, I should. It seemed crazy, of course, but I should have listened. And that's always. That's nuts to me, because even if something like this did happen, wherever it happens in the world.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

We are trained to be like, wait, what?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. You know, absolutely, man. And, you know, it's. It's one of the things where you start to go, why? Right? Why children? Why this place? Now, if you look at that school, it was an international school.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

There's children from all around the world. All races and backgrounds and religions. And, you know, as I was talking to a friend of mine, Luigi Vendettelli, who is also really close with Emily Trim. He's currently working on the Bob Lazar movie. And he was telling me, like, if you were to sort of test humanity on, you know, contact and how. How, you know, what would happen if contact happened? That's how you would do it. You know, people say, oh, I want. I want it to land on the White House lawn. No one's gonna believe it.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the biggest UFO ever.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, exactly. But no one's gonna believe it.

[Joe Rogan]

No one's gonna believe it.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's gonna feel like a setup. It'll feel like them. It'll feel like the. You know, like some type of US Military thing, like a psyop. No one's gonna buy it. So, you know, for them to do it at a school where there's innocent children and, like, this is, like, the perfect way to.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I actually, you know, I try to think as best I can, which is completely impossible. But from what we can as, like, a human brain, I try to think about, what would I be thinking if I were, like, an advanced civilization, whatever it is, and I were coming Here to study the people here. And I've always wondered about like the simulation theory. And I'm not talking about Riz Verk's jury. I'm talking about them literally wanting to simulate what would happen if, you know, blank as an example. When you hear about like a UFO being cited, whether it be like Lonnie Zamora out in the desert where he actually saw it and they allowed him to be seen or whatever, if a civilization were able to like bend wormholes or whatever, bend the speed of time and to be able to get here, I got to think they figured out invisibility or, you know, speeds that are so high that no one can ever be seen or be able to pre prevent anything like a crash in our universe. So that all being cool, it's like, maybe then they're like, oh, let's see what happens if we crash. Yeah, show them one and just, just see how people will react to it. Because most people won't believe it. But like, what will. What will the civilization down there on Earth do when someone comes home and goes, yeah, I just saw a alien.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, the, the donation theory too. You know, that's. It's really interesting. I, you know, I've given a lot of thought on especially like the abduction side and a lot of the sightings and what it seems to me, it's like the kind of working theory that I have right now is that we are dealing with some type of system. And the reason I say that, are you familiar with, and I hate quoting 4chan as being a source here, but there has been this one guy that came out on 4chan who was like, oh, I worked at an underground thing that we were looking at, this mobile construction unit in the ocean, this giant thing in the Atlantic that we're tracking that deploys these UFOs and they go right back to it. And now after that, he said at the end, which is something that stuck with me. Notice yourself coming back to this thread. And I swear, every time we get an update from, whether it's Congress or we get some, oh, they're in the ocean or the drone flaps or whatever it is, it always leads back to what that guy was saying. So my conviction level, you know, started really low on that and it's been growing ever since. And so I'd put that into, like, into this theory as, okay, if I were to, let's say I had the technology to bounce around the universe at will. Okay, We've established it. It's been billions of years. Our civilization has been around And I can now blink anywhere I want in the universe. Let's say I have that technology. You would find 100 billion exoplanets that are capable of sustaining life.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Right. Instantly. Now, because you're so advanced, you wouldn't potentially, you probably wouldn't even show up to these planets yourself. You would have some type of von Neumann esque probe that lands in the oceans, that's buried, sequestered deep into, you know, out of reach, that deploys a sort of immune system, that the planet has this sort of white blood cell that if ever the scales are tipped too far in one direction, it would come out, shut down the nukes, it would come out. During times of war, it would come out, you know, and then go right back down. Now, these ships would require sometimes, especially for like the genetic stuff that they're probably doing as well, because if you're sort of creating this simulated panspermia, you would have to, you know, not only feed it plant life, but also probably some type of, you know, mammalian life form or all sorts of life form from all around the universe. So what you would do is you would genetically modify this plant life you got from this planet, bring it over here, you would grab an animal from over here, and you do this to all the planets. Right. So that life thrives everywhere. Right. That's kind of. And so there's so many cases of these aliens. They show up and they're grabbing dirt samples, they're grabbing rock samples, or there's genetic modifications, and then they just leave. And so I'm thinking maybe this is also just part of the system where it's like this sort of eco zoo, this, this biome that they're trying to preserve and maintain. And if you were to do genetic modifications, you might need some type of biological drone in order to do that. That is part of the system. So now we have these genderless grays taking people, telling them the same things over and over. We're not going to hurt you, proceed to hurt you, show you how bad you are to the planet, and then puts you right back in your bed, you know, like this kind of like system over and over and over. Now, these ships don't have toilets, they don't have kitchens, they don't have pictures hanging on the wall.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that just because we haven't. From the people who have described them and claim they've been in them, they haven't ever seen those things.

[Chris Ramsey]

I mean, yeah, but you can also look at people like Balazar, if you believe what he says, like, you Know, it's barren. These things have nothing in them, no controls even, and just seats. You know, although he didn't go on the top floor of this ufo, you know, for him there was no control area. And then you look at some other cases where people talk about how these beings interact sort of psychically or psionically with the technology and that without the beings these crafts can't actually function. These beings are like a part of the craft. They're interacting with like maybe the microtubules in their brain and to, to interact with like this quantum field that you know, the UFO lives in. I don't know, but that if I were this system, if I were this like AI system in place and a UFO crash, I wouldn't be too worried because as soon as the being dies, you can't fly the craft anyways. And I think that's what's been happening. I think a lot of the stuff, if there is recovery stuff, which I believe there is, I think we're just dealing with their tech that we can't do anything with and that's why they're not too worried about it.

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[Joe Rogan]

There's. And the problem, though is that that would signify that they. We are so far behind them, which actually, this isn't a problem. This would make sense. Now I'm thinking about it. We're so far behind them that it doesn't even matter to them. They're like, oh, they got one of our.

[Chris Ramsey]

Don't care.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, don't. Don't worry about it. The way you describe, like, just picking up dirt from, you know, one of a hundred billion exoplanets or something like that. And we happen to be that. That could make sense. Even though in our world we're trying to figure out how the fuck to colonize Mars just to get people there that they could survive and not die on the f place.

[Chris Ramsey]

That's right.

[Joe Rogan]

These guys could be so far ahead that they have 100 billion. Mars is that they've already made Earths.

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, even better than that, because if you were trying to preserve the seed of human life or the flame, right, the flame of consciousness that we're trying to keep alive, you know, we're trying to be interstellar. We're trying to go to Mars and do all these things. Well, if you had that technology, you wouldn't be looking for barren radioactive rocks. You know, like living underground or in a bubble. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Instead you would find exoplanets that can already harbor some type of primitive life and then genetically modify it with your own DNA so that you're preserving your seed in these other planets and then just monitor them with your system. And every thousand years, you come down in a chariot of fire and you, you know, or a fiery wheel from the sky. And you give them metallurgy or you give them religion or you give them, you know, agriculture, and you allow them to sort of, you know, grow as you're just checking up on. Religion is important to build society. Without religion, we wouldn't have Rome. Right? And Rome was like one of the first major, you know, powers of the world. Before that, everything was tribal.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Before that, small villages would get together and they were fighting over power and they would never flourish. So it was due to religion that we have modern society today. Like, it's a very important thing that was introduced into our civilization that allowed us to have A bigger sort of colony with consequences and everything. Now, is religion still, you know, valuable today? That's debatable, but I think at the time, I think it was extremely valuable in order to start civilization.

[Joe Rogan]

Would they give us religion because they, in their advanced civilization. This is a hypothetical question. In your opinion. They, as an advanced civilization, experience religion themselves, whatever their version of it is. And so they know the power that. That type of thing, like a lower level of it, I guess, in this case can hold over society when you give them complete unknowns. Because they can't know nearly as much as we, the fucking aliens in this case know.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, how do. How do, you know, Pets, you know, how do they think. What do they think about us? They might consider us some type of God that can summon food all the time. We don't know that. Right. So we know what's best for them. The way that they interpret us, you know, is up to us, how we present ourselves.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Because we're just so much more advanced. So I think if you were to seed the universe, you would need several ingredients. And. And then I think there's. I think there's a prime directive, like, kind of like in Star Trek. I think when you reach a certain point, maybe that's not the development of nukes, but maybe that's us throwing the nukes away. That becomes like, oh, welcome to the family type deal. You know, the reason. I think another reason to support that it might be a system. At least 50% of it. You know, maybe there are rogue entities coming here that are, you know, that look like giant cats or something. I don't know. But I think for the most part, there is a system we're interacting with. But one of the. One of the reasons I think we're interacting with a system is because it's. It seems like every time we have a war, every time we have any type of strife, we start seeing orbs or Foo Fighters or what have you, or flaps over, you know, in D.C. and whatnot. And so, you know, you look at things like perhaps Skywatcher and what they're doing. You know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't put it past them to simulate war games out in these ranges with Northrop Grumman. Right. The CIA was doing, you know, according to Lou, Project Interloper, where they were dragging nukes out in the middle of the ocean to try and, you know, attract these things.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

If you're an intelligent species. These aren't fish, dude. These aren't fish. Like, so whatever Is, you know, if you're blowing stuff up, like, you look at skinwalker, right? They're throwing rockets in the air, and that's where the phenomenon shows up. Maybe that's just like. Like some type of response system, some immune response that's like, hey, what are you guys doing? Not necessarily the intelligence behind the AI, but just that, like, automatic. And we found a way to sort of short circuit that and make them appear through these. You know, through these events. And then on the other side of that, I think, you know, you get people like Chris Bledsoe or, you know, even Dorothy Isat in Canada, where the opposite happens, where, like, you know, the psionic assets as well, they claim that beaming out, like, pure love and whatever will attract them, right? So maybe there's two sides to that. Maybe it's like, oh, if we're bad to each other, they show up to try and shut it down. But maybe if we start being good to each other, that's where they show up and they're like, hey, you know, welcome to the family. Like, who knows?

[Joe Rogan]

You talk to Bledsoe on your show? Yeah, Right. What do you think of that story?

[Chris Ramsey]

I think initially something did happen. I think there are classic marks of an abduction. I do think he was taken. You know, he even says he was taken. But if you. If you look at the case, there are three other witnesses that saw these glowing orbs. You know, they didn't see him take him or any of that, but they were present during, you know, during the arrival of these things and were being apparently chased in their pickup trucks by these glowing, molten, you know, orbs. And so I do think initially something happened after that. I think, you know, it's. It's a matter of. It's a matter of taking him at his word, you know, and as someone who's researching, you know, that's hard for me to just put all my eggs into. I'm open to the idea, and I'm happy to shelve that or file that, you know, catalog that information. For instance, the date, you know, April 2027. We're talking Easter 2020 or 2026, actually. You know, so I'm like, all right, we'll put that in that category, see what happens, right? But I don't think it's. I don't think it's healthy to say I believe or I don't believe. I think that sort of binary thinking is what prevents data collection. I think if we do that, we automatically filter all information whether we believe or don't believe. We filter the information that comes through. I'd rather create a space, you know, a safe zone for everybody to speak, take the information judgment free, allow them to really tell whatever they want to say, and then parse through the. The information myself over time and hold it up against other connections I might make.

[Joe Rogan]

So, yeah, that's. That's one of the things I like about you. Like, you know, your. And you bring in all these different people you've had in all, like, the biggest names. There's still a few more on the list. You got to get in. I'm sure you'll get them in at some point, but, like, you know, you let them go through the whole story. You ask them step by step what happened. It's like getting it down on documented record. And also, by the way, the production of your show is amazing.

[Chris Ramsey]

Incredible.

[Joe Rogan]

But, like, you also, as a fan of this thing, you want the truth. You want to know, all right, what are we hearing from the government that's real? What seems to be. And, like, I've seen you comment on some of that and some of those things while still, like, maintaining of, like, trying not to, you know, make enemies out of people or do stuff like that, which. Which I think is great. But it is a tough job because it's a space where the. The. The unknown. Unknowns are so vast. We're even, like, beyond hypotheticals to a point there that you are going to run. Just statistically, you're gonna run into a lot of stories that are. That end up being total.

[Chris Ramsey]

Absolutely.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and then it's like, does. Is that a part of the plot? Is that a part of the thing where it's like, all right, this is how you poison the well. You throw Jason Sands in there. And then people that believe that, it's like, see, hey, look, they'll believe anything. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ramsey]

Could be. You know, could be. That's absolutely right. And if you were to do that, you don't even need to do that purposely. You know, people do that on their own without even realizing it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

I'll take it in the context of, like, a magic trick, for instance.

[Joe Rogan]

You're pretty good at that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Pretty good at that. Yeah. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of correlation between how someone experiences a magic trick versus how they experience the phenomenon. And so magicians know this. But as soon as you perform to somebody, we kind of stick around, because what we do during our performances, for the most part, there's a lot of stuff involved with Sleight of hand, misdirection, showmanship, all this stuff and suggestion and whatnot. But one thing that happens is the engineering of memory. That's the main component of the magic trick, which is why it doesn't always work best on camera. It's always better to do live because looking back, you might be like, oh, there was this little offbeat moment that didn't seem important that I forgot about, that's now on camera. And so magicians will take a piece of information that isn't important, right? Make it seem really important and then take a piece of information that is absolutely critical to the magic trick, working and dismissing it as if it's nothing being very flippant about it. So your brain is just going to take the big pieces, but it doesn't have time or storage to remember all the tiny nonsense that we, you know, threw aside. And so the memory you have instantly of the trick is different than what happened instantly. And that happens with experiencers as well. It happens with everybody. They're not unique in this, in that. If I want to tell you what I felt during a magic trick, I will embellish for two reasons. One, I don't want you to think that I'm easily fooled, right? So I will just round off the edges a little bit more and I'll think nothing of it. They're like, no, these edges don't really matter. No one's going to notice. And it's just kind of like, no, it didn't make a sound, but you were in your car. How do you know it didn't make a sound? No, no, it was. We had the window down. So you'll, you'll round off the edges a little bit. And then secondly, you. So firstly, you don't want to appear foolish, but secondly, I think the more. How do I put this? The more you experience magic or like the phenomenon, like this stuff starts to, like your reality is malleable, like from the get go, everything we experience, your, your sight, the sound and everything. And so as soon as someone else can have agency over that for you, I mean, nothing should be taken into account, right? It's, it's, it's like, it's, it's not admissible. It shouldn't be admissible in, in anything. You know, memory is so bad and we can, yeah, we can play around with it. So I think for those reasons, I think experiencers as well, you know, oh, and here's the second reason. They don't want, they want you to feel like you were there. That's the other thing. Right. So if I'm doing a magic trick, I'm going to try and. I'm going to try and say, oh, it was amazing. It was. No, he was this high off the ground when in reality was like, this high. Right. But I want you to feel like you were there. I'm not trying to give you data. I'm trying to give you emotion so that you feel it. Right. So an experiencer might do the same thing. They might be like, no, no, no. It was like the hair was standing up on my head. It's like, well, how do you know that you can't see your hair?

[Joe Rogan]

They're trying to re. Feel like they were there, which means it may not be a perfect rendition of it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. They're trying to make you feel what they felt, which is a human thing to do. It has nothing to do with lying, has nothing to do with being, you know, just not telling the truth. It has everything to do with human connection.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so, you know, through that, you have to filter the experiences and it's impossible to do so. And so we know there's truth there. But some people might think that, oh, it's a grift, when in reality, the memory is just so bad from these events, like, it's so bad. It's. It's not something you can count on. And so we just have to count on the stories. And. And we have to kind of like, parse through it ourselves.

[Joe Rogan]

But, yeah, without naming names, have you. Not even necessarily just on camera, but just in. In all your years of looking at this and talking to people, have you sat with people that are at least known a little bit by others out there, not just like a rando on Twitter or something like that, but if you sat with someone who's telling you a story and you're just like, this is complete bullshit.

[Chris Ramsey]

I wouldn't say complete bullshit, but like I said, I think there's. I think there's reason to believe that everyone telling a story, if you've told it more than once, you're making that story better as you go along. You know, from. You know, think of. Think of the. The greatest tales. You know, when you're with your buddies and you're like, oh, I got a story for you. How does that story compare to. You know, you tweak it a little bit just to get a reaction or to make people feel like they were there or to get a laugh where it got a laugh that one time you might throw that back in there.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so I Think that's what's happening with these stories. And the longer we wait between the event and the telling of it, I mean, we have to assume the more muddy it gets. But that doesn't mean there wasn't something there initially. And so I think with a lot of experiencers, you know, with Whitley Strieber, with Chris Bledsoe, with even Travis Walton. Travis Walton's different a little bit. Travis Walton like doesn't waver at all. He's been one to like this is it. And he gets quite defensive about any other detail being added on. He makes it very clear that this is what happened. But you know, you read a lot of books and you kind of like it becomes subjective a little bit over time and they start adding things and not saying it's not true. It's just hard to know.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's human nature like you're saying your explanation is. I mean, it's in line with a lot of things. Like you'll hear different psychology experts talk about with like eyewitness testimony in, in court and things like that, like stories, people, it's not that that they're lying, but deep sometimes details will change all the time just based on what reactions are when you're telling it and time passed and like remembering things that weren't there and stuff like that, it's just natural to what it is. So the balance becomes trying to find the things that are the common thread, the things that make sense in one story. And then also when you have this where it's like people talking about experiences or potentially witnessing a UFO or something that like that to where you can line up commonalities across the stories pattern wise. So you having Travis Walton in is. Is pretty wild because I'm naturally very skeptical of a lot of experience or stories and there's some big names out there that like in my opinion, like you, and you mentioned it yourself, like there are some that are just such clear grifters to me that even if there was something that happened at some point in their life, they're so far beyond that. Just don't take anything they take, they say seriously. That said Travis Walton, you know, he was on Joe Rogan show like six years ago, something like that. And he's been on some other big shows over the years. And this is a story that's 30, 40 years old.

[Chris Ramsey]

50 in November.

[Joe Rogan]

50 years old.

[Chris Ramsey]

Wow. God damn.

[Joe Rogan]

Point being though it down to the fact that his details stay the same and like you said, he's strict with it. There's something about this one that. Even on the surface, though, it sounds crazy. Like, when you watch him tell it, you're like, I don't know if that's exactly what happened because of the.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But, like, I know he believes that, number one. And number two, something happened there. Like. Like. And. And just for people out there who aren't. Who aren't familiar with this story or forget it. Can you just give the broad details of what happened? Yeah, when he was out in the desert there.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, it was. He was actually in the.

[Joe Rogan]

In.

[Chris Ramsey]

In the forest. It was a 1975 November 5th in Snowflake, Arizona. He was a logger, like a lumberjack. Him and six of his buddies, including his brother, his crew basically were finished.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Desert.

[Joe Rogan]

Sorry. Yeah, my bad.

[Chris Ramsey]

Arizona is Arizona.

[Joe Rogan]

I was thinking that other thing.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay. Yeah. And so, yeah, they were out there. They were finishing their shift. They were driving home. They all pile up in the truck, and they see this light in a clearing. It's kind of a weird light, pretty bright. They, you know, they drive up to the clearing and notice this giant ufo, this giant flying disc that's glowing, pulsating. It's got lights around it. It's dazzling. I would say, I think probably like. Like 50 to 80ft. Like a big, you know, pretty big craft. And they all say, let's get the hell out of here. Like, what are we doing? And they're kicking the seat, like, drive. Go, go, go. Because you have to understand, seeing something like that is like, Eldridge. It's like. It's earth shattering. Right. I don't think you can fathom. It shifts your paradigm instantly. You know, it's, you know, ontological shock, whatever you want to use, but it breaks your reality. And so they're like, screaming, get the hell out of here. Travis, being really bold and curious, gets out of the truck, approaches the craft, gets really close to it, like, really close. Starts hearing a noise as if it's, like, powering up like a. Like a swell, and then gets hit with, like, this beam. And everybody who saw him get hit, instantly, they thought he was dead, right? They're like, oh, he's dead. Let's get out of here. So they book it. They start driving away. Now they're panicking because they're like, this is crazy. They actually end up stopping, being like, we got to go back. We got to get him, obviously. And they go back, and he's nowhere to be found. They're combing this place, and they can't find him. So they end up going back into town, trying to get their story straight. What do we tell the cops? Right, they get the cops in eventually. They tell them the story. The cop now thinks there's like a murder cover up happening. Like a bad one at that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, would your head go.

[Chris Ramsey]

Exactly. He's doing his job.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

So, you know, they went out that night to look. They didn't find anything. So then the next day again, they had like a, a three day search party, like comb the forest. No sign of him whatsoever. And now this thing is starting to make like national headlines. Well, five days and six hours later, Travis, on some remote payphone, I think, calls his girlfriend and is like, hey, we're, I'm, I'm here. But he's like, obviously they're all distressed, barely talking, very, very shaken up, emaciated, dehydrated. And they pick him up, they bring him home. Frenzy of, of, of a media starts showing up to his house and trying to get the scoop, obviously. And he ends up being convinced by, I think his brother to, you know, do regression hypnotherapy. And through the regression was able to realize sort of what happened. And what he remembers through that regression is he woke up on a table. Now, this was depicted by Fire in the sky movie in 1993. D.B. sweeney plays Travis Walton. They completely butchered this part. So Fire in the sky, they make it like a horrific horror movie where he's like, you know, drilling stuff in his eyes. I know it's Hollywood, but they did him dirty on that because they actually cut that part out of the script when they gave him the script.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, and then they put it back in.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, I bought the original storyboard or a copy of the original storyboard and showed it to Travis and he was like, holy cow. He's like, they never showed me this.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so he's, he's never seen that. So they purposely, like, omitted that. That's kind of fucked. That's Hollywood.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

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[Chris Ramsey]

So, you know, they wanted that at the time, but, but I think what happened was way more interesting than that movie. So he wakes up on this table. He sees this bright light. He sees these sort of bulbous heads hovering over him. And he, you know, he focuses in. Now at point, his brain is pounding out of his skull, his chest hurts. He, he literally feels like he's dying. He's in so much pain. He feels like he's dying. And he sees these, these creatures. They are about four and a half feet tall. Four to four and a half feet tall, giant white head. So not your typical grays. They've got big eyes, but they're brown, like sort of hazel colored. And they're wearing orange, sort of loose fitting orange jumpers. And he's on this table and now he's freaking out. So he's like, you, where am I? He realizes he's not at the hospital, which he thought he was. And he gets up off this table. His table is low to the ground, the ceiling's pretty low. The air is like musty and humid and hard to breathe, kind of claustrophobic. He reaches on this table and he finds this rod, this clear rod he says was heavier than glass, but was transparent. And he doesn't know what it was for. He was panicking. He starts swinging it at them. He's like get away from me. Get away. He notices there were other tools, like, you know, sort of windy metallic tools you don't want to see, you know, type deal.

[Joe Rogan]

Like they're going to go to town.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Or, you know, later on he's come to, you know. His thought was that they fixed him, they asked that he got too close. They accidentally, you know, beamed him or something. And then he was left for dead. And then they revived him, they brought him back. Like that's what he thought. Because he's like, if they wanted, he's like, they could have dropped me off on a meteor somewhere in the asteroid belt if they wanted to. They didn't have to. To fix me, and they have to bring me back. So he's swinging at these things. These things. What frightened him the most, and this is like a wild detail, is their facial expressions never changed. And he took that as a sign of hostility. Because if you look at someone, you're going to fight them and they're just like stone cold, you know, that's like, you got to give me something, man. You got to give me a smile, you got to give me a frown, you got to give me something, something, or else I'm gonna think, you know, this is weird and we're gonna fight. And so they weren't giving him anything. They were kind of just like, you know, doll face looking at him. And in hindsight, he's like, if they were telepathic, they wouldn't need facial features anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

I know what he's thinking.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, exactly. So they leave, they scurry out of this room.

[Joe Rogan]

And he's not. So he was never like down or he was never handcuffed or he has clothes.

[Chris Ramsey]

He was on a table. I did ask him this question, which I thought was really interesting. It's a detail I never heard before. I asked him if his legs, if his feet were like hanging off the bed off the table. And he goes, no. So I said, so it's a human sized table, which I thought was interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

Wait, if the feet were hanging off.

[Chris Ramsey]

The table because they're small beings, I mean, the ceiling is low. He had to crouch down. Why would the table be human size? Right.

[Joe Rogan]

So his feet would be on the ground.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. So that I thought was really interesting. I was like, oh, there's a little factory somewhere. And they're like making humans human sized tables, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so they go out this opening, they kind of scurry away pretty quickly. He then walks down this windy, narrow hallway, sort of crouched down, and it's turning now you can imagine the fear that he must have that around any of these corners there might be another one of these things just waiting to pop out. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't think I can imagine that here. This is like, dude.

[Chris Ramsey]

So he. He's walking around this corner thinking, I gotta look for. For the way out. I have to find a way out. He doesn't know he's in a spaceship, right. He doesn't know where he is. So he's looking for a way out. He gets into this room where all of a sudden, as soon as he walks in, he can see what he says is like a star map. He doesn't know if it was a projection or if it was actual space, but the entire room that he's in is just space. And there's a chair in the middle of the room. And so he sits in the chair and he starts, like, fiddling with the buttons. He's looking for a door. And all of a sudden the star map starts shifting around him really quickly without him moving, which is kind of disorienting. And instantly a door opens up behind him. Now, before we get into these beings, the beings that he had just seen, there is another case, if you want to look into it. It is Bill Herman. William Herman. 1968.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know.

[Chris Ramsey]

1978. Sorry. So it's a few years. Yes, it's a few years after this guy had been taken multiple times. According to him, he had pictures. He has actually great pictures of UFOs like.

[Joe Rogan]

Like that he took.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Of the act, not a. Yeah, of a craft.

[Chris Ramsey]

And it's like tilted at a 45 degrees. Some great pictures. You can pull them up.

[Joe Rogan]

All right, let's get that.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so Bill Herman describes the same beings. White, sort of pasty skin, big heads, four and a half feet tall, brown eyes with orange jumpsuits. He describes the same beings wearing the same things. I thought was really interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

And he was on record in 1978 describing.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, this was three years after Travis. But, you know, prior to any, you know, full publication of his work or his experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Got. Is that the picture you're talking about?

[Chris Ramsey]

He's got multiple. Yep, those are the ones which are pretty remarkable.

[Joe Rogan]

And he released these back then.

[Chris Ramsey]

These were put out by Wendell Stevens in a book called Contact from Reticulum in, I think, probably the 70s or 80s.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So a long time ago. Okay, that's not like in the last.

[Chris Ramsey]

Probably in the 80s. Sorry, in the 80s, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Meaning it's not like some AI picture from 20.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, that's film. So you know, whether that's real or not, I don't know, but it looks pretty cool. I like the fact that they're kind of out of focus. I think that's how it would be. Yeah, right. Especially if there's like some weird propulsion involved. So anyways, Bill Herman describes the same beings, orange jumpsuits, like same physical characteristics, which I thought was really interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, maybe he went to Sam Quentin.

[Chris Ramsey]

Maybe it was a big psyop. So anyways, put those beings aside for a second. He's in this big dark room. There's a chair in the middle of the room. And then behind him a door opens and he looks and there's this tall sort of Scandinavian looking gentleman with a sort of straight long hair, but like straight cut, like a, like a page boy haircut. Super weird blue, tight blue jumpsuit. Athletic, tall and you know, blue eyes and wearing. This is the weird detail, a fishbowl kind of helmet over his head. Now you're thinking, okay, that's where, that's where it loses a lot of people. That's your. Like, is this the Jetsons? What are we talking about here, some mid century aliens? Yeah. There's a case, 1954, Jesse Rostenberg. If you look this up, you can type in Staffordshire. Staffordshire, ufo. She's on camera and she gets pulled out by her two children who are like, mommy, Mommy, there's a UFO outside. There's a flying saucer. You know, I wouldn't call it UFO back then, but there's a flying saucer. And she's like, don't be stupid. You know, she comes outside and sure enough, hanging over her house is a silver disc, kind of like tilted. And she describes it as a Mexican hat looking thing. She's very sincere in this video. It's an interview with her and she goes, the two gentlemen, they're sitting side by side. This is 1954. Two gentlemen are sitting side by side and they had these pageboy bob haircuts, these blue suits and what look like fishbowls over their heads.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh yeah, there we got a picture of her right there holding up the.

[Chris Ramsey]

Same fishbowl type, you know, and this is again, prior Internet, you know, you would have to. What a coincidence that, you know, Travis Walton, days after his traumatic experience, would go to some. I don't even know where he would find this interview.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know, or it's a coincidence that they're both tall blonde figures with fishbowls over their heads.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I'm saying.

[Chris Ramsey]

This is where it gets a wild coincidence incidents. Yep. So I. I showed that to. To Travis. He never. I don't think he'd ever heard of that before. So he's a little surprised by that. And then so this being grabs him. He's thinking to himself like, oh my God, thank goodness, you know, a person like there's these creatures over here. And he's yelling frantically, where am I? What are you doing? I'm in. I'm dying. Like he's yelling. They're just stoic. Don't, you know, stone faced, don't respond. He's thinking maybe the helmet's interfering with their hearing or something. So he's like, you know, he doesn't know what's going on are your ears. He's like, take the helmet off. And. And so he. This guy grabs Travis by the arm. They walk through the door down a platform. Now they're coming out of the ufo, but they're in like a hangar.

[Joe Rogan]

Did it feel like a human was grabbing him? Meaning like when he grabbed him. He's strong, but it feels like a human. It's not like he grabs him and a force field comes over him or something.

[Chris Ramsey]

No force field. Just incredible strength. Now mind you, he was in a weakened state, but he was still mid-20s. He was a boxer, he was a logger. He was on adrenaline. I mean, strong guy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And yeah, just like nothing. Just rag dolled him into this. Into. They're coming down this ramp. Coming out of the flying saucer into this quarter of a cylinder is the way he described it. Room massive lights that line the ceiling that he thought was like sunlight. He was like. It was like daytime. And he gets there and he sees lined up against the wall, pill or tic tac shaped UFOs that are like chromium, sort of liquid mercury as he put it. Sort of like the bean in Chicago type deal. And they're lining up the walls, joined by two other of these beings, a man and a woman. No helmets this time. Jacked. Perfect specimens. They had a familial resemblance of like siblings almost. They're all, you know. And they put him on a bed and then they put a mask over his mouth like a triangular mask without a tube or anything. And he passed out. That's the last thing he remembers. And then he remembers sort of waking up in the street, seeing the craft sort of just go up and to sp. A different craft than the one that picked him up or beamed him. And yeah, that was his experience. Other than that, he doesn't waver like, that's, that's been his story since day one, since he did his regression. And so arguably, I think we can all agree, way more interesting than like scary alien, gray aliens.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a full process and it's like. And then they let him go. And that comes back to how many of the. If, if this is true, how many other times have they done that? Why are they doing that? Is this again, like, going back to that kind of simulation thing? Like, oh, let's simulate how this little human goes back to the other humans and tries to make sense of this with them.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And. And why are they working together? Like, Travis thinks that maybe the little ones might have been in charge and they sent the big ones in because they looked human and that would not scare him, which I thought is an interesting theory. But also, maybe they're just two factions and they're like, hey, you know, we hurt this human guy, we don't know what to do with him. And Travis says that he never had a telepathic connection with any of them. And so he thought that whatever they did to him or whatever he was hit with disrupted that, which is why he was able to sort of fight them off, which is why they had to use like, analog technology to like sedate him rather than anesthetize him through mental, you know, faculties or whatever. They, you know, however they do it normally. So he was like kind of in a, maybe an immune state to their psi ability. Who knows?

[Joe Rogan]

How did he get put into the regression analysis? Psychiatry? Like, what was, Whose idea was that? And when exactly did that happen?

[Chris Ramsey]

I don't think it happened too long after because I think he was so troubled by what had happened to him. Like he was catatonic, platonic.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I can imagine.

[Chris Ramsey]

He didn't even know what happened to him. He was just. You couldn't talk to him when pressed on, like, where were you? Type deal, he would just shut down. And if you look at the interview that Joe Rogan did with him, or you look at the interview that I did with him, he's like kind of happy. Go lucky.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And then as soon as he talks about it, he has a thousand yard stare and he doesn't even look at you in the eye. He's looking at something else. He's like, there again. And that's heavy, man. That's really heavy. You can't fake that. Like, you know, my dad was 30 years in the military and had PTSD, severe PTSD from like multiple tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. And all that stuff. And you know, you can tell you can't fake that, you know. And so for that alone, whatever it was, he.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a.

[Chris Ramsey]

There, there he went. He went through something.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Really scary.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And it's like, you don't know. It could. Technically it could have been something entirely different, but like there was something traumatic that happened to him out there. And the fact that it then lands on a story that is this detailed and this unique and this like up. There's a lot of things at the same time makes it interesting. It's not this one dimensional kind of like, yeah, I saw an alien and it. Me or you know, something like that. It's. It's more like, like, you know, there's steps to it. There were different ones. He's in these different rooms. They're looking at him.

[Chris Ramsey]

Cover up too. There's like that part of the forest like burned down. But there were like trees that were actually cut prior that they didn't cut. There's like, there's a whole lot of shady stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you remember when they dropped him off?

[Chris Ramsey]

He does, he just remembers being on the ground. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. There's also, I think one other witness of the craft initially was a hunter and his wife. That hunter was also CIA.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's nice.

[Chris Ramsey]

So you gotta wonder, right? They're always there, right? It makes you wonder like why is. Does that have to, you know, does that have anything to do with the story?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

So there are all these like so many people are quick to dismiss Travis's story based on the idea that they wanted to get out of a logging contract or something. There's some. There are better ways to get out of a logging contract.

[Joe Rogan]

I could think of a few.

[Chris Ramsey]

Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean you don't have to be a mastermind. It's a weird. What a weird way to, you know, make money. Like none of these guys really profited from any of it other than Travis perhaps, because that's what he does for a living now. Because what are you going to do? You going to go back to logging now? Like, you know, after that, what do you do? No, of course, you write a book, you go on tour, you start talking about your story. That's what you do, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And, and I, and I think sometimes with some of these people that is, that's something that'll get thrown at them like, oh, you gotta monetize the whole thing or whatever. And, and I, I understand, I understand where that argument comes from. Especially with Some people who all remain unnamed. But at the same time, to your point, if your entire world, personal world order.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that disrupted in a situation like that?

[Chris Ramsey]

Like.

[Joe Rogan]

Like you describe the ontological shock or. Or like what it means about your place here, not just now on the planet, but you see yourself in a completely different light within the universe because of something that you've had access to that clearly almost no one else gets access to. It's like you can't relate to anyone anymore.

[Chris Ramsey]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

He can't sit across from Chris Ramsey and be like, yo, you understand me, bro?

[Chris Ramsey]

No. You know, it's frustrating. Endlessly frustrating for him.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

I can imagine that, like, people are talking with as like, what ifs all the time.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

And he's just got to like, sit on it and be like.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's like, if you knew. But I try to simulate that in my mind without the alien example. Just like, in general, if you knew, like some crazy secret of the universe, whatever that is.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

And you knew you couldn't just whip out the proof of it to someone because that's kind of the whole point. But you knew it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that enough to not drive you crazy? That, you know, and who the cares, you know, if other people want to call me crazy for knowing it, fine. Like, is that enough to be secure in yourself?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, that, you know, I think. Yeah. No, absolutely. I don't know. I think it even goes deeper than that with him, too, in that he doesn't want to share his story. It terrifies him. He wishes to this day that he never got out of that truck. He's like, I really wish. I wish my life would be different. I didn't ask for this life. He didn't want it, you know, and when he's asked to tell his story, he always says he sticks to his story. And then he always says, you know, if this can help people, then good. If it can help people, you know, that's it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. It still creates the. And I feel bad about this sometimes, but it still creates the problem that a lot of people are going to want to try to get meaning out of their life by creating a reality in their head.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Some people are going to straight up lie. Other people are actually going to start to believe the things they tell themselves.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And you're going to have all that noise. Yeah, right. And you have all that noise of people saying things that. Well, that's, that's, that's. It becomes the. The pile of. That kind of. That kind of drowns out anything that could be real. Like, I always think of it this way. I fight with Andy Bustamante on. On. On here about conspiracies and stuff all the time, because he loves to give, like, the CIA propaganda line of, like, well, never, never leave up to conspiracy. What can be explained by stupidity. And I always say to him, like, Andy, all right, let's hypothetically say that 99.9% of conspiracies that are out there that are told are bullshit. Which, actually, if you look at Twitter now, I'd probably agree with that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's still a lot. That 0.1%, that's a lot of major conspiracies. And that means there is truth there. There. The law of averages and big numbers says, though, that because you have that 99.9 on your side, every time I bring something up, even if it's something like an Epstein, like something that's legit.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You can then say, well, this is a part of the 99.9. You can always. It's never a part of the 0.1, of course. You know, and I think. I think when, like the alien thing, that's on a whole different level, because you will hear. I mean, I'll go into these Twitter spaces sometimes, and you'll hear someone, and I'm just like, this complete. But then I'm like, well, when are you gonna get to one that's not? And then it, like, would it all sound like anyway because it's something that I can't even conceive. I don't know.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And then what do you need for it to be considered? Not bullshit is the other thing. Right, Right.

[Joe Rogan]

How do I even judge that?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. So it. And, you know, when it comes to disclosure, I don't. I think everybody's road to disclosure is different. I think it's a journey. I think it's an ontological shift that happens over time. The more I'm exposed, I'm sure you as well, the more you're exposed to people who are studying the phenomenon or who have experienced things, your meter sways up and down, but it seems to be like, okay, your conviction level grows over time. And then you start putting your own ontology against that. And then at one point, when you're given new information like this, you have to treat it one of three ways. You have to either ignore it, it. Fit it into your worldview, like, into the current model that everyone's built, the one that you've lived with, or expand your worldview. Those are the only three choices you Have. And most people will ignore and fit it into their current model. Very few people will expand their worldview and let other things in because it's scary and it's meaningless because I'm going to let all this in. And then what? And then go to work and then, you know, and plan a birthday or like, all these, like, weird things that, you know, are kind of, you know, just so meaningless in. In the grand scheme of things, you know, how would I function? So I get why people would default to not believing or not wanting to expand their worldview, I should say, which is perfectly normal. But I think for a lot of people, doing it gradually is the way to go. I think that's how we get disclosure is through conversation. It's generational. You know, if you look at from the late 40s to now, you know, it's not. It's. That's a couple generations. Give it another two, three generations.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Chris Ramsey]

And this will be. A lot of. It'll be common sense, hopefully, or at least the notion that we're not alone. Like, let's just. Let's just go get there. You know what I mean? Like, the size, the sheer size of the universe. It's so baffling. But, yeah, but then you look at cases like Travis's. If I go back to Travis for a second, please, you have to wonder what. What in that case would help me believe or what in that case would raise my conviction level. I should say that it is real or that he is telling the objective truth. And, you know, one of those things is not only are there multiple witnesses to this, they. And take this however you want to take it, but all seven of them pass their lie detector tests. Police, lie detector tests. That's a big deal. That's like, okay, a lie detector is not a lie detector. It's a stress detector test. Yes. However, that's seven people who are not trained to, you know, sort of fool those machines. The odds are one of them is going to fail. If they're not, if they're bullshitting, right? And they're. They're under a lot of stress. They all passed, right? So there's. There's things like that that kind of just raise my conviction level a little bit more.

[Joe Rogan]

Did they remember, did any of them remember slight details differently of the story? Like, not the basic of, like, oh, he was hit by a beam and that, so they passed on that. But were there little details that each one had that were like, oh, this guy was standing over here, so he saw that this girl was standing over here. So she saw that?

[Chris Ramsey]

I can't tell you, but I would assume so. I would assume there are some like varying details there. But I think the core detail is that they were all terrified of what they saw, you know, and that is. And again, even Travis would say. And he said this, you know, in my interview with him. He's not saying they're from Zeta Reticuli, you know, he's not saying they're ultra terrestrial or interdimensional. He's even open to the idea that this is an American military project.

[Joe Rogan]

Meaning not alien.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, because he's like there were like human looking things involved. So he's like, maybe it's some secret weird project.

[Joe Rogan]

Check.

[Chris Ramsey]

He's not excluding anything. He's not convinced that it's one thing. He has information. Here's the information.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's up to us as researchers, as you know, to take that information, catalog it and hold it up against the other findings. Like those other cases we mentioned, which happened before and after, which are similar. Right. I think those things for me raise my conviction a little bit more by a few, few points.

[Joe Rogan]

To go back to the first detail of the case though, just so I understand this because we talked a lot about the guy with the hair and kind of the bowl cut and the helmet and he was tall and blue eyes and like human looking and strong. The first four, four and a half foot beings that he saw when he woke up on the table. How did he describe their heads again?

[Chris Ramsey]

They were like large heads, large heads, big eyes, but they weren't black. And so again, this is Hill, you know, he has no idea why, but he thinks maybe because they had, and this is a good theory, he says maybe because they have big eyes, that they're extremely light sensitive. Right. If you have bigger eyes, bigger pupils, that's more light coming in.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, there you go.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. So maybe, maybe there's some type of bioengineered sunglass contact lenses that they throw over so that things aren't as bright. Like this might be extremely bright for them, you know, living in the darkness of space perhaps, or the planet they're from or whatever tube they're congeened in might be extremely dark and they would need to protect themselves, you know, who knows? So I thought that was an interesting detail, wanting to lie. You might, you know, you. I don't even know if back then there was a lot of, there wasn't a lot of gray talk actually. There was a lot of tall blondes though, 70s is riddled with that.75 specifically.

[Joe Rogan]

That is why do you think, like, there was a time period where it was riddled with that.

[Chris Ramsey]

I mean, original. When they were here originally, you had, I think, Dan Fry, 1951. I think maybe before that was George Adamski. But they both, you know, with Orthon, and they both claimed to be contactees in contact with tall, blonde, humanoid, I think even from Venus or something. It was like. It was the. The sort of space brothers phase, lasted from, I would say, the late 40s, maybe early 50s, all the way up until like the mid-70s. And it was like humanoid looking, you know, if you look at Billy Meyer as well and Semyaze and all the contacts that he had, he allegedly had, again, they were all tall, blonde, Pleiadian, you know, benevolent, sort of. They would have this message of like, oh, we need to come together and all this. And a lot of stories, a lot of stories throughout the year followed, follow that sort of being. But then it shifts to almost solely like genderless, gray, robotic, you know, droid, like aliens. Which I think maybe that's when they were like, all right, we need a system in place here.

[Joe Rogan]

This is where in either one of those cases, obviously they're very different in how they're described. This is where, like, I've heard, really use my imagination, looked at possibilities, some of that, like, Michael P. Masters, you know, future humans thing.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Whatever that would look like. That could make some sense.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me as well. I think it's a great theory. I don't know, you know, I wouldn't hang my hat on him. On.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And even Michael says, like, that he's open to other theories too. He's not. You know, people get him wrong. You're the time travel guys. Like, I don't care. He's like, that's just what I found.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I like that he comes at it from like, an anthropological perspective.

[Chris Ramsey]

Perspective.

[Joe Rogan]

Like he's a literal anthropologist, you know, college professor, whole bit. And it's like you have this potential explanation that would also explain how the human race has developed over time with help from, you know, some sort of, like, time shift going on. Like, it sounds nuts, but then it's like, yeah, you know, there could. Some of that could make sense.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And there's science to back up his claims, which is cool, you know, which is rare in this field. But, yeah, you have, you know, the cranial morphology of these beings. If you track, you know, our ancestors to us, to them, there's like, it kind of draws A straight line.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And to the size of their eyes, you know, their. Their arm length. All these different things, all these different features. Even the jaw retracting up into the head. And so I think. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then also the idea that if you were to. Okay, if we look at how we're progressing as a species, is it sperm counts dropping 1% per year.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Now, can we check that deep. It's something like that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Something insane. Right. Where clearly this is a problem that is going to happen. And it's due to all sorts of factors. Chemicals, microplastics, whatever you want to.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we all got microplastics in our fucking balls.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Oh, you see that study, which doubled to over 2% per year after 2000. The trying to subject concern for male fertility and overall health. So that's a massive decline.

[Joe Rogan]

Shooting blanks out here.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And inevitably, do the math, you know, we're not going to be able to have any more children. That's just the way that line is drawn. Right. There is an end to that.

[Joe Rogan]

And unless I got to poke one hole in that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Unless scientific development over time, like we see how IVF has come such a long way now. It's not perfect by any means, but. But it's way better than it was 20 years ago.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, we are still moving on that exponential, like Moore's law curve of technology. And I do think there are some problems that are red alarm right now, including this obviously, by the way, it's how we reproduce that. Like, I don't want to be too much of like the eternal optimist and say, oh, it's all going to be fine. But some of them, I'm like, I think we're going to be good.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And we can genetically modify all that stuff. But, you know, it begs the question, like, obviously we don't know what effect that has in five generations. Like, we don't know what effect not doing it naturally has. And maybe there is some effect there. Right. We have to assume that anytime we inject some chemical that's good for us or some procedure that is ground, you know, breaking and. And scientific breakthrough, 50 years later, people are growing tumors and you know what I mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Or stuff happens that would never happen with Ozempic. Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

I don't know know. You know what I'm saying?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

So, you know, it just. It just seems that, like, the natural process is obviously probably the best way. Nature is really good at optimizing things like that. And so if you were to make A civilization, at least save your own civilization. You would want the greatest pool of genetic variants that you could find. Kind. Right. And the, the most varied we ever were genetically is in the last 50 years.

[Joe Rogan]

What's this? I, I believe that. What's the, what's the scientific explanation?

[Chris Ramsey]

Just cross breeding between different races, different people. You know, everyone was kind of like in their own little thing and now everybody's kind of intermingling, having, you know, and so that creates a greater genetic variance. And so if you're looking for an optimal point of genetics that you. Or DNA that you need, it would be during that period. It would be during maybe between the 50s and the 2000s, somewhere around there. So if you were a time traveler looking for, you know, the best point in all of history to grab something, it wouldn't be now. It would have been like during this little pocket. And so maybe that's all, all we've been seeing is just different. Maybe the same species, us, right. From different points in time coming back.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it gets interesting even when you just like look at now. Like, forget whether it's future humans or like how civilizations have developed. Even with the genetics thing, it's an exterior physical thing.

[Chris Ramsey]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Like we all have the same organs and the same internal. Like if you rip us all apart, you know, minus the height and whatever, it all looks about the same. Right. It's literally like scientifically the same. But then the way we develop on the outside, Hair, skin.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, geometry of features and stuff like that. You go all over the world and it's different in all different places. And some of it, you know, might actually provide like some sort of physical advantage or something. Like, There's a reason LeBron James is 6, 925 pounds and like an, an, an absolute gazelle out there. And you can jump 48 inches. Right. I can't do that. Like, he has some other physical makeup up to do that. And yet we have the same base creation. Like, I always wonder how future civilizations or, you know, things that aren't from here would come and study that and be like, wait, they have the same software, but the hardware looks, it looks different in Asia than it does in, you know, Germany or something like that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Wasn't there. I might be mistaken on this, but wasn't there? Isn't like blonde hair and red hair like completely anomalous, like, in terms of like, showing up? Because before then it was all sort of like indigenous sort of races. And then all of a sudden we have this sort of like Scandinavian look showing up which kind of matches, you know, these space brothers, you know. That's right.

[Joe Rogan]

So who came down here and somebody.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, a bit of a mystery that we have that you know, because if you look at, at okay. Scandinavian, you're like, oh, they're paler skin because they live, you know, in the winter or whatever. Okay. I'm from Canada. Our first nations people, they're dark, right. We got Siberian type weather.

[Joe Rogan]

That's right.

[Chris Ramsey]

They're dark people, you know. So why are we having blonde hair, blue eyed, fair skinned people in these Scandinavian sort of because you came and colonized them, Chris.

[Joe Rogan]

God damn it.

[Chris Ramsey]

But that's what I'm saying. It's like there is a weird like I think, I think it is a little anomalous when you look at all the different races. Like we are kind of like inter species but we're also product obviously of our surroundings. There is some nature there, like increasing lung capacity if you're living at higher altitude or certain things like that. But there are also, I think some features that are just anomalous with people. Like where they are, why are they like that?

[Joe Rogan]

That this is where this is one like that's why Michael Masters is actually a good example because of his anthropology background. It's on theme here. Right. But like some of the curiosity of the potential of like life outside of here. I wish weren't so stigmatized in a lot of ways because the science of the amazing that has happened here to civilization through evolution and all these different, different developments we've had like as a human race.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Is so cool and still such an untapped area of study that if there is something that makes sense that's from beyond here that plays any role in that even 1%.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

The combination of that expertise of like, you know, getting some expert here to look at this over here and vice versa and kind of like teaming up to figure things out could be, I mean I, I Captain Obvious statement. But it's like monumental. You could, you could reach breakthroughs that we've never even consider.

[Chris Ramsey]

100. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's wild. And then to assume it's coming from elsewhere is another thing. You know, the way that I see it is that if, like what are the odds that these races are also bipedal, have you know, five, four or five fingers, have front facing eyes, you know. Well, like the odds of that I don't think are that great if you look at the vastness of the different types of like planets and solar systems. So there has to be some type of link to us. And so I would assume way before. Because if we're here and, you know, I get people's argument, like, well, you're traveling all these light years to just come here. You know what I mean? And that kind of seems insane. I agree with that. First of all, if you're traveling in a straight line with regular propulsion, yes, it's insane. But secondly, to me, it makes way more sense that they, like, we were sort of genetically modified again and that they're probably. I mean, probably. I don't know, but it's. There seems to be some type of ultra terrestrial presence here. Ultra terrestrial? Yeah, being like there's like some breakaway civilization or there's something. Whether it's deep in the mountains, behind the moon, the bottom of the ocean, there seems to be some type of monitoring system that has been here for a very long time. And, you know, we see this show up in lots of. If you read all the old, you know, Passport to Magonia or all these incredible books by Jacques Vallee where he looks at past cases, you know, in the 1500s, 1600s, even further back than that, thousands of years ago in Japan where like, they. They said the stars were. Were dancing and. And then. And then was asked, you know, how come that is? And he said, oh, the wind was really strong. And that was the answer they gave. And they're like, all right. And they kind of just moved on. Right. That sense sounds good. Checks out. So, you know, you have all these tales of like, yeah, things have been going on for a very long time. It doesn't seem like this is an outside thing, but then again, maybe it's both. Maybe it's both. Like, why would it just be us and them?

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I'm talking about, you know, like, why can't you combine it?

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, if it's. For me, it's insane to think it's just us in the universe. Obviously, it's not just us in the universe, but if it's just us and then just them, I think that's more insane. I think it's either just us or everything. Right. It's. It's. If it's just two.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Just two of us in the whole universe. Like that to me. Sounds more insane.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

Than just being alone in the universe.

[Joe Rogan]

One of. One of the Hollywood scenes that sticks in my head more than any other. That was.

[Chris Ramsey]

Hold on, Men in Black.

[Joe Rogan]

Which one?

[Chris Ramsey]

The. At the end. The end shot with the pool. With the. Yeah. The marble or whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When every time I think about that, just like the ball and then the other ball and then the big ball and then the big balls and. And then they're playing with it, and I'm like, why would that not make sense? Have you ever looked at the cells.

[Chris Ramsey]

In our body as above, so below, man.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, holy. It's like, Joe, can you actually pull this up? This is a good parallel.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like an. In some ways, like a non sequitur. But it'll make sense, I think, to you.

[Chris Ramsey]

You.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you pull up that map of Rome, of the Roman Empire? Veins. Like the word veins.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Coursing through you. I don't know if it'll be on Google. It was on Twitter. I wish I'd saved this. Yeah, first one. Yep, that's it. Like, look at the pattern of how Rome built.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Now, think of. We're Neither of us are doctors, but think about the human body that we.

[Chris Ramsey]

Know, that we see or.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly, exactly.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, of course.

[Joe Rogan]

And, like, why would that not be the same thing? With some sort of pattern at the cellular level that then also explains the universe the same way that every thing in the world, down to Picasso's art, is technically math.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's numbers. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, I agree with that. I think to a certain level, I think, you know, I don't think we have reality figured out at all. I do. I tend to think that consciousness isn't a byproduct of our brain. I do think it's fundamental.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you explain that?

[Chris Ramsey]

So, yeah, the idea that consciousness, if you look at regular physics and regular science, tells us that our brain creates reality. So it's because of our brain that we are conscious. It's because of our brain that things exist, that we see them. Right. Because of our brain. We perceive it. But, you know, the sort of fringe parapsychological route or the sort of fringe science is that, and I think will be accepted as main science one day, is that consciousness is fundamental. So consciousness exists, and it's because consciousness exists that. That I. That this is here. So if you take like the double slit experiment, for instance, I know it's a terrible thing to quote if you're not a physicist like myself, but it shows us that observation changes something. I think that itself is a really crazy thing to say and admit as a. As a scientist, as a quantum physicist, you have to admit that observing something changes its state from. From wave to particle. It changes fundamentally what it is just by observing it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Now, if I get that wrong, maybe you know, roast me in the comments. But I think that's like the gist of it. Right. And that's all you need to really understand that. Okay. What I'm observing isn't what reality is. It's different if I observe it or if I don't observe it. So I think, you know, you can go down crazy rabbit holes with this.

[Joe Rogan]

Stuff, but I mean, you could go to the multiverse rabbit hole with that one.

[Chris Ramsey]

You could. But all that might all just be sort of in the desktop, might not be outside the computer at all. Right. I do think that if, you know, if you look at quantum mechanics, it's kind of removed from space and time, Right. That's kind of how it functions, weirdly enough. Like even Einstein called it spooky, you know, this idea of quantum entanglement that two photons, you know, separated by an infinite distance will instantly switched if one is charged positive, I think, and then the other one goes negative like instantly from. From like a crazy. Yeah, from a crazy distance. So just that alone, you're not beholden to space, therefore time is also. So does that mean you can also change that photon in time? You know, because time and space are linked. So, you know, does that mean that everything is just happening all at once and that the only reason we perceive it otherwise is the brain?

[Joe Rogan]

We've also only accepted time as we know it, which is constant and moving forward.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right?

[Chris Ramsey]

That's right.

[Joe Rogan]

We're born and at some point we die, which means time move from A to B and a lot of maybe happens in between. But when you start to think about even the small. And I think that's all it is, is the small scientific understandings we even have of time now, including like time dilation. What was the name of that experiment again? Do you remember that? Where they, they put the watch up into space and went around the earth and it came back.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, that was to prove Einstein's theory of relativity.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. I forget what that one was. I talked about it with Lawrence Krauss back in episode 180. I can't remember what the name of it was, but it's real.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then like the extrapolated kind of Hollywood example that injects. Yeah, there it is. The half, the, the Hafeli Keating experiment. I just want to read this for people to have the understanding. The fellow Keating experiment was a test of the theory of relativity. In 1971. Joseph Hafela, it might be half a physicist, and Richard E. Keating, an astronomer, took four cesium beam atomic clocks Aboard commercial airliners, they flew twice around the world, world first eastward, then westward, and compared the clocks in motion to stationary clocks at the United States Naval Observatory. When reunited, the three sets of clocks were found to disagree with one another, and the differences were consistent with the predictions of special and general relativity. Meaning it's exactly what it sounds like, people. It.

[Chris Ramsey]

And which happened after Einstein died, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

Which is wild.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Isn't that crazy that, like.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Isn't that.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a while after he died too, I think.

[Chris Ramsey]

Right. Yeah. Like his, his. His general and special relativity wasn't accepted while he was alive. I think that's like a tragedy. Yeah. For him.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean. Yeah. I mean, obviously, like, we have his legacy now, but it's like, imagine like, people forget.

[Chris Ramsey]

People forget how fringe quantum physics was.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know, prior to World War II, it was, you know, when Niels Bohr and all these guys were, you know, an Oppenheimer were, you know, playing around with this idea. They were outcasts. They were literally like, you're crazy, you're insane. The same way we're treating a lot of people. Looking into parapsychology, you know, and I think there's something to be said there, I think.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you explain parapsychology?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, just the. I. You know, studying psi, studying psychic ability. There's places like the. The Ryan Institute, places like Stanford Research Institute, the parapsychological labs at Princeton. All these places are researching, you know, the minds or the consciousness's effect on the physical world. And, and, you know, how we can interact with that. That. They're doing random number generator tests, which are really interesting, which is like these ones and zeros. Basically, it's like a server that just goes from ones that produces a bunch of ones and zeros. And if you play it long enough, it'll just be like 50, 50.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Chris Ramsey]

And they're having people essentially focus on either the ones or the zeros. And they're able to skew to a higher point than standard deviation the ones onto one side or the zeros onto another side. Right. So you're affecting, on a very small scale, physical reality through conscious interaction.

[Joe Rogan]

You anchor them in a way.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, you're changing a little bit. And so they have these machines run, there's these servers. I think you can even sign up your own computer for one of these services to be a part of these servers. But essentially the biggest spike they've ever had was at 9 11. That was the biggest spike they've ever had, they've ever recorded was at 9, 11. They had a huge spike.

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Chris Ramsey]

How do they explain 2001?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. How do they explain that?

[Chris Ramsey]

So they, they, they, they just know that, like somehow that effect, whatever happened there, I mean, you have to assume that it's probably tied to, you know, obviously human consciousness, global consciousness, perhaps. There's this crazy study that they did too, where they had 5,000 people meditate and the crime rate lowered significantly during those three weeks. If you can look that up. 5,000 people meditated for three weeks. And they did this twice. They did a follow up with 3,000 people in the Washington area, and crime rate dropped by like 15%. And hospitalizations dropped. Like a lot of these. They meditated on world peace.

[Joe Rogan]

Now they did this once.

[Chris Ramsey]

They did it once with 5,000 and another time with 3,000.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, so they did.

[Chris Ramsey]

People thought it was a, it was a fluke. So they did it again.

[Joe Rogan]

And it worked again.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, it worked again. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

See, this is the problem we call crazy. And maybe something is. But you can't know something's crazy unless you actually continually test the theory that's what life is supposed to be. I don't. Why do we demonize this?

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, because any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, right? So anytime we have, have something that reaches further than our comprehension of it, we, we think it's paranormal. Right. And we give it this taboo sort of sticker of, you know, this is magic. It's a, It's. No, it's a psychological phenomenon. No, you're hallucinating. No, it's. And we're trying to fit it into the world that we already know. And it's just until someone brave enough, you know, smashes down those borders. Whether it's Einstein or whether it's, you know, people working in parapsychology, I think you have to push boundaries, especially if you're hitting a wal. You know, like we are with quantum physics. We have no unifying theory.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Chris Ramsey]

Between, you know, the practical, classical physics and the quantum realm. And so there are people who are trying to study that, but those people are. Every theory that comes out is if it doesn't line up with relativity, it's kind of thrown out the window.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's creating these. And this is like, kind of related, but it's also creating these factions within science too, where you have like, like.

[Chris Ramsey]

The string theory people.

[Joe Rogan]

And then the people are like, wait, what if that's not the base and we got to get a new bait? You know what I mean?

[Chris Ramsey]

Scientism.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I like that. I'm going to use that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Scientism. Yeah. That's what it feels like. We're, you know, we're kind of like trying and that that stuff's been going on forever.

[Joe Rogan]

Forever?

[Chris Ramsey]

Forever. Anytime we came up with something groundbreaking, that's what we were up against. It's no different today.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, I don't want to be one of those people who the minute I hear some new crazy ideas like, oh yeah, we got, that's going to work, let's check it. I don't want to be that, but I do want to be the guy like, like, tell me more about that. How can we test this? What is the proper way to put that? Through some sort of whatever scientific method.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

To determine if we can get to some level of truth that warrants more experimentation on it. And so you talk about like these, I guess like experiments are happening with psionics and stuff. You know, we saw one even mainstream go main at least like to people last year with the whole telepathy tapes thing. Thing.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I mean? And there were so many people who even before listening to that just shot it down. Of course we're like, no way. And I'm not saying these kids, these autistic kids are telepathic.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But like if you actually listen to it and look at the double blind experiments they did all over the world, it's compelling. And you have to at least say, even if it's not that there's some sort of. They're there. So let's learn there might be. Be there might be. Yeah, I like that. Even say there might be. You know, like let's learn more about that instead of just dismissing it when in fact like we don't. We have it as accepted science that something like a savant exists. Yeah. It's accepted.

[Chris Ramsey]

And we don't even know how savants are made. We don't know how it's made.

[Joe Rogan]

Some kid can come out and play Beethoven, do algebra out of his ass and it's like, oh yeah, that's normal.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Oh, it's a savant syndrome. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But then you say, hey, I think some non versions, verbal autistics might be able to communicate with each other. Blasphemy. It's like, how do these. How is this the same world? You know what I mean?

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, there are ways to explain some of what was talked about or observed during the telepathy tapes. There are ways to explain that as a magician. Right. And so, but just because I can explain it As a magician?

[Joe Rogan]

How would you explain it as a magician?

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, it depends on, depends on the, the example. But, but rest assured that it's a magician's job to do the impossible. Right? So magicians are tasked with the impossible. That's what they do. That's, you know, every magician you've ever seen on TV has consultants, and those consultants are other magicians that they work with to create the illusions that are presented on tv. They work together in this sort of, you know, sort of little group to come up with, you know, whatever the illusion is, whatever the task is. And we are always given the like, let's say the effect, which we call the effect, the, the trick. And we have to reverse engineer how to do that. Right? So that's our job. Our job is to make the impossible happen. The job is, okay, we have to have this guy disappear. Okay, how do you want him to disappear? While he's walking. While he's walking. Broad daylight. Yes, broad daylight. What else? We want him to disappear gradually. We want it to look like he's fading out of existence. Existence. Okay. All right, so that's what we're dealing with. And now we go through the Rolodex of methods that we have, whether that's psychological methods. Are we filming this? Are we not filming this? We go through all of the stagecraft illusion that we have. We go through the misdirection, maybe suggestion. Do we use hypnosis here? Do we use. So there's all, do we use camera stuff? Like there's all these methods that are available that have been around for 600 years as long as, you know, performative magic has been around. And we have to use that to try and create the impossible. So that being said, if you tell me, hey, can you do what they're doing? Yes, as a magician, I can fake that. That's a magician's job. It would be insulting to a magician to think you can't because go watch any magic show and you go, that's impossible. That's the whole point.

[Joe Rogan]

Would that assume that some of the double blind science scientists that they brought in and psychiatrists would have to be in on it as well?

[Chris Ramsey]

No, but it would mean that they can be fooled. And I'm not saying that the people are purposely trying to fool them, but maybe there is some subtle things at play. I don't know. I have to be skeptical when it comes to this stuff. I know that Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell is doing great work studying this stuff. I think she's doing phenomenal work. And I applaud her, and I want her to succeed in this. I think it's really important what she's doing. That being said, she's not immune to being fooled. Neither are people from Stanford. I've performed for rooms filled with 300 engineers whose whole job it is to engineer things. And I sit here and I graduated high school. That's all I did. But I Learned magic for 20 years, and I can fool the pants off the smartest guy in the room. Doesn't make me smarter than them. I just know things that they don't know. We have secrets. We have ways to do things. So I would always vouch for. If you're going to study anything in the parapsychological realm, get a magician to make sure the variables are met, because we have methods that we can't share publicly that would make these tests possible. So I could go into a psychic competition, perhaps, and just like I could train someone to go into one of these psychic competitions and win the whole thing right in. In front of doctors? Well, there's methods. I won't go into them, but, yeah, I could. Absolutely. You know, when you look at a guy like O. Pearlman, right, or any of these, like, mentalists, you know, they'll be the first to tell you what they're doing isn't psychic. You know, there's trickery they're doing.

[Joe Rogan]

You see some of Pearlman stuff and you're like, bro.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, but ask him.

[Joe Rogan]

Him.

[Chris Ramsey]

He'll never tell you it's an ability he was born with or anything. No, it's magic tricks.

[Joe Rogan]

How does he.

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, he does it very well. I can't tell you how. That's just the code of the magician. But as magicians, we look at other people's. We look at the performance. I look at Oz and I go, oh, wow, he did a good job doing this. He did. Oh, that was really nice subtlety he used over here when he said these things or when he, you know, there's. That's. We respect each other in that way. But when it comes to methods like we can't share that with, you know, lay people, that's just not. Or else magic, you know, wouldn't be around. So we have to hold that close to the heart. But when I see tests being done, you know, let's say with blindfolds or, you know, there's hundreds of books written on how to work with blindfolds as magicians. This goes back, you know, to vaudeville days. It goes back even prior to that, where, you know, they would do Q&As. Back in 1907, this guy Alexander, he would have this act where. And this guy was the richest performer back then. He was a millionaire back in, like, the early 1900s. He performed for shakes and, you know, just royalty all the time. And his whole act, which is probably get him canceled today. But he'd wear this big turban, and he was dressed up like a. You know, like some. Back in the day, some fakir or something, right? This is what they did. And a lot of these guys. A lot of these guys, like, I mean, it was really questionable. Oh, the magicians are. You know, they'd come back from the. From the Orient, you know, and all of a sudden, they're, you know, they. Their eyes look different. Yeah, yeah. And so. And so, you know, they. And they dress up and they would live whole lives. Like, there was. I think there's a list of, like, 30 magicians that changed their names from, like, you know, Rosenberg to, like, Chung Ling Sue. And like, one guy's literal name was, I think, like, Ching Chong. Like, that is like. I'm like, you guys are insane. Like, back then, like, that's, you know, so they would come back from the Orient and bring the mysteries and, like, sell out of theaters here.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Chris Ramsey]

That's what they did. But this guy Alexander had this big turbine, and essentially, he was using an early precursor to Bluetooth technology. He had. It was like coils in his giant turbine, and it was, like, wired down through the ground, through the. The carpet that he was sitting on, and then would send signals to backstage. So they. Come on. They were able to talk to him backstage and go through, like, the Q and A that people would. You know, and they'd be like, oh, blah, blah, blah.

[Joe Rogan]

And he could hear it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Same thing that Pop off was doing when he got caught by James Randy on that late show, right? He was. Peter Popoff was like, you know, this. This. He would sell out arenas of like, oh, I'll heal you. Oh, you got, you know, power of God. And he would tell your dress, and he would like, oh, and it's like a magic trick. I'm gonna pull the demon out of you. Amazing Randy. You know, he. He came out on. On live TV on a late show. I think it was on what's his name, Johnny Carson? And basically intercepted the frequency that his wife was talking to him and feeding him information and then played it for everybody. And they were like, whoa, what? So he got his career, you know, took a big hit.

[Joe Rogan]

It.

[Chris Ramsey]

But magicians would do this sort of ethically, you know, we'll do it as a. As a means of entertainment. But just to show you that back in 1907, this stuff was going on with magicians. That's how far ahead magicians are when it comes to methods. Like people have no idea. Like, there are things that magicians have access to that don't become readily available. Now it's catching up a little bit. But I've played with technology that isn't out yet due to magicians inventing it for magic, right? So there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that. So rest assured that like, when you see, you know, tests being done as a magician, I'm thinking how I would do that using those conditions. And I'll find a way using tech, using this, using that, using maybe, you know, all these different techniques, sleight of hand, misdirection, showmanship, suggestion, all that. And so now, I'm not saying that the children in the telepathy tapes are not psychic, right? That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that having magicians present, I think, is valuable to testing this stuff, because then you can know for sure. Because ask any magician. You can ask those Perlman, you can ask any mentalist what they think of the telepathy tapes. A lot of these guys are very skeptical because they just know too much. So it's hard for them to get over that, Humphrey. So use them. Let's use them to create variables, and that's good.

[Joe Rogan]

We need. Yeah, you need people to push back.

[Chris Ramsey]

Absolutely. And then have these, you know, have these tests done under those conditions, buddy. I will. I am the biggest champion for it, but I will be an even bigger champion for all that stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. You know, like, Oz doing the mental stuff is a. You know, that's one realm of being a magician. There's a lot of different realms. I don't know what the fuck his tricks are there, though, dude. Like, the ones that get me are when he goes to the NFL teams, and it's a room of fucking 53 guys on the roster and 25 coaches. And he. And you just see it in succession for five minutes. He picks out random people and the shit that he'll get. Like, once in a while, you'll see when I'm like, all right, maybe he could have figured out the draft order there or something. But then you'll see other ones, like. Like what they had for breakfast that morning or. And I'm just. I'm thinking how can he do it at all? These different teams and never get one wrong.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And yet we don't believe he's psychic. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

See, I don't. But I'm also like, what the fuck is going on there, bro?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Who are you?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, I mean, you're a magician. So when you watch him, do, you.

[Chris Ramsey]

Know, we watch it differently, for sure. We watch it from a different perspective. Like I said, we're, as magicians, we're kind of focused more on, like, patter or presentation or. Oh, that's an interesting twist he did on that. Or, like, like, we'll look at, like, technically, like, how to appreciate something, which is how an artist appreciates their own art form, where everyone else will be dazzled by the colors. You know, an artist might think of, you know, the specific brush they use there. It's like, oh, it was an interesting choice of brush, you know, Know. So just kind of the same thing. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How did you, like, what drew you to magic? And how young were you?

[Chris Ramsey]

I was. I mean, I was always interested. I think young. Young boys, specifically, it seems to be. Are more prone to. I don't know. We're.

[Joe Rogan]

We're.

[Chris Ramsey]

We're fascinated by, like, hidden identities as children. Every. Every young man can. Can, you know, attest to this. Like, you want it to be a spy or a superhero or a magician or a ninja, or you want to cover your face and, like, hop around in the dark and, like, do, like, these are things that we love. We love gadgets. We love, you know. You know, so we. We kind of all have that within us. And I just never really grew out of it. I was. I was always just kind of, like, dabbling with it constantly. And then I started working at a bar when I was, like, 19, and that's where I started using it to get tip and, you know, bring people together, get people talking and.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's a great.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And, you know, you. You're doing it under low lighting, loud music, young people, so you can get away with a lot of stuff. Great play to hone the craft, really. And did that for a few years and started booking gigs after that.

[Joe Rogan]

And so, yeah, you were telling me that when you grew up, you were born in Germany. This was off camera. Your dad was in the Canadian military for a lot of years. I think you mentioned that on camera as well. But you. You lived in. You went to 10 different schools or something, so you were constantly traveling and. And getting thrown into new environments. Do you think that part of, like, the interest in magic was like, kind of shaped from you having to learn to entertain people around you, but constantly get put in new situations.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely has a lot to do with that. I think breaking the ice was a big thing for me. You know, starting over again and again and again. I remember thinking to myself, and this epiphany I had when I was like, grade eight, you know, after, like, really kind of being cheesed at my parents for moving again, I was like, come on, you know what I mean? Pre Internet, no way to talk to your friends. Right. And so starting over, I'd went to school previously where I was, like, heavily bullied for like, the whole year. And then when we moved, I went to this new school and all of a sudden I was a cool kid.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's strange.

[Chris Ramsey]

And I didn't change anything about myself. Right. And so I thought, wait, it isn't me. I'm like, what is this factor? Like, why does that. Why. How did that happen? Right? And so it was then I realized, oh, I can decide who I am and I can just do that. I can do that now. In fact, we can all do that right now. You can change exactly who you are if you so decide right now. You are a confident person. You are whatever you decide.

[Joe Rogan]

You think you can flip it like that?

[Chris Ramsey]

I think everybody can. I think that's a. I think we're suppressed and think we don't have that ability. But you, if you want to, you can change who you are. Now, you might not see the change right away, or it might be hard, but the decision to change is immediate. Right. And so you can just do that. You can be like, today I'm. I'm hyper religious. Or today I'm. I'm. I speak Spanish and, And just go and start there. Right. You have that ability. And so I, It. It clicked within me at a young age that I was like, oh, I decide, you know, how people see me.

[Joe Rogan]

But do you think part of that was you were. You were getting dropped into new crowds so there wasn't a previous expectation? And I'll give you, like, like an example of this because I see where.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, when you meet someone for the first time, right. And it doesn't go right. The wires get crossed.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And then you see that person around in different friend groups or whatever over time.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Those wires have a way. You're. You're. Both of. You are married to those wires. Like, even if you both would be best friends or get along, whatever. Like, the wires getting crossed once got it tangled and you, like, can't get out of that pattern. So even if over, you know, a five year period, you're around this person and you change a lot as a person or they. And they change a lot as a, as a person. And you know, like, things that were weaknesses back then are now strengths for both of you. You still have that, like, meeting point of like, this was where you were socially compared to me and this is where I was socially compared to you. Such that you lock it in your head that, like, this is just what it is forever. So it's not, maybe you can change around new settings, but the idea of like changing in the same setting, that one's harder for me to get with.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, but it's not changing who you are immediately, but it's having the decision to change who you are immediately. Right. And that's, I think, the key. So, like, for instance, if you wanted to start going to the gym, right? That's the decision you have to make. You have to be like, I'm that guy, right? I'm the guy who goes to the gym every day. Right. And you can make that decision in the same environment that you're in now, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I've done it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, exactly. So those are major changes. That's a major change. That changes who you are fundamentally as a person. That you can just do that. Right. And so it's that realization that, like, oh, I can just be that guy. Oh, I can be the guy that knows everything about history. Oh, I can be that guy. That can be me. Boom, done. And I'm reading books and I'm on the Internet. I'm passionate about whatever and I'm learning about this new passion. Right. You can decide whatever you wanted to do. It's partially, I think the reason why I got into creating Area 52 was that I've always had this interest. I've always been fascinated by this stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I was going to ask you, how young did that start?

[Chris Ramsey]

Since watching Fire in the sky when I was nine years old. Yeah, I remember the disclaimer, this is based on a true story. And I was like, what are you telling me aliens are real? Parents are telling me aliens are real. And so I've always had the fascination. And then, yeah, I was doing this other channel, this magic and puzzles that I had built.

[Joe Rogan]

This other channel is like fucking 10 million subscribers.

[Chris Ramsey]

At least 7 million, whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

But a lot.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, it is a lot. And it was a lot of work to get there. It was a lot of fun. And I found myself just being unhappy at what I was creating and felt like I was just feeding the machine.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Really?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't feel. I was going through depressions. I was like, why did you feel.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, because you're doing what you love. Like, you're.

[Chris Ramsey]

Like you're doing what I love.

[Joe Rogan]

Magic.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. I started doing what I love. Like, I love magic. It's the. I guess what happens is after a while, you know. Have you ever read the Alchemist?

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I have.

[Chris Ramsey]

I think everybody's read that book, right? It's pretty basic book, but it's a great. Yeah, exactly. Great lesson in that book where, you know, I think eventually, if you're. You know, if you're. If you're not listening to the. What, the language of the world or whatever the signs are showing you, and you start pursuing things that are shiny or start getting sort of, you know, distracted by the shinier things, and stop listening to that voice.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

That voice that makes you creative, that voice that makes you passionate, that keeps you going, that puts the fire in you. If you stop listening to that, that eventually it starts going away. Right. And that voice brought you everything. That voice got you everything. Got you to where you are. Right. Got you everything. And so eventually, you're surrounded by everything. You're surrounded by money, by all the things you've ever wanted, by all the success, like, all the. You've just shattered all the benchmarks that you've set for yourself. And. And you start getting. You know, you start buying things, you start doing things. You start like. Like, collecting things. You start. And then you're. You're not hearing that voice anymore because you're. You're so fixated on maintaining that and trying to upkeep that. And then that voice goes away, and you're just surrounded by all this stuff, and you go, wait a second. Why do I. Why do I feel this way? Why do I not want any of this? Why do I not really care about this stuff? What am I doing this for? And. And that voice goes away, right? And then you're kind of scrambling, and then you're wondering, how am I depressed if I'm surrounded by all this and I have all the money and I have all the success and fame that I've ever wanted. Why am I not happy? And so I had to, like, listen to that thing again, right? And. And so that thing was pulling me in a direction creatively that I was already sort of doing on the side. I was like, you know, filming things more cinematically, storyboarding more. You know, a friend of Mine, we had like a tiny podcast, like shoot the shit, like comedy podcast type deal. But I always talk about aliens. And I was like, man, I think this is. I think this is kind of a calling. And as I shifted, I just noticed I went full into it this time. And you know, you see the success come from that, from that voice. Right. From that vision, from that passion. The success will come if you're not worried about it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so, yeah, I think that that's what got me into here. It's just I needed. Need to chase something again. I needed to feel like I was starting over. Maybe that's.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's actually like, it's a good story for people to hear because you started off doing the very thing that you had always loved and you built it into not just like a career, but you were famous from it. And like from the outside looking in, people are like, wow, he gets to do what he loves. He's famous for him. But what people don't see from the outside is that I'm talking about the magic part now, before you got to Area 52, it's like all the things off camera that weren't there at the beginning.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Grew and metastasized based on what you're telling me over time to the point that the percentage of you actually doing the part that involves love and like, you know, your, Your pride in what you do became so small.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Compared to everything else that it's like, like you can't even. You can't even get joy out of it. Because it's a blip in your day.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

In a lot of ways. And I. I understand that. And, and I think looking. Looking on the outside at a lot of other people in all different spaces, you can see maybe not the moment, but you can see where over time the Rubicon gets crossed with people where they become this thing. Right. And it sounds like you never became that you had self awareness of like, I don't like this, like, what the am I doing? But other people, they never get that self awareness. They see all the money, they see all the fam. And like it goes from this pure creative, no one watching it, whatever it is like genius to, you know, all right, I have a hard stop at 5 and make sure you know what I mean? And it. And it turns into this corporation upkeep.

[Chris Ramsey]

This. This machine you gotta feed. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And that to me is always such a tragedy to see. It's something I think about a lot because I started the. Just in my parents house with a Backwards hat, no money, and no previous fame of any kind or anything to stand on. And the only difference now is I have my own place in Hoboken, right? We're over five and a half years in, and it has the same energy that it had at the beginning. And I don't even have, like, you know, we. We have Deep and Alessi, we don't have a team of like 30 people or something like that. So it's very bootstrapped. And to me, it's like, no matter how much this grows, it's something I've always checked on myself and want to check on myself moving forward. It's like. Like, how much are we still just purely doing this?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

This needs to. In fact, we have the conversation off camera all the time now, how to try to get rid of things that I got to do so that it can just be this pure thing right here and we can ride that. But it's easier said than done, man. You know what I mean? Like, there's re. Everyone out there. You guys can relate to it. People that work at companies or run their own businesses or something like that. There's. That comes in.

[Chris Ramsey]

In.

[Joe Rogan]

And then personal life comes in as well. And you gotta, you know, there's no textbook on how to handle all this stuff.

[Chris Ramsey]

No, I agree. Yeah. You know, people ask me too, like, because, you know, you hear the term grifter a lot in this space, which is. Oh, yeah. Which is, you know, I get it. But when aimed at me, I think it's kind of humorous because I'm like, I'm not here pretending that I'm doing this for the greater good of humanity. You know, this isn't. This is. That's not my bag.

[Joe Rogan]

Bag. That's not my bag.

[Chris Ramsey]

No, no, I'm. I'm. I'm doing it out of an incredible. I'm doing it completely selfishly to feed my own creativity. That's it. That's like my number one reason is to fend off living a life that. Where I'm unhappy. And so I know for myself and based on, you know, my childhood bouncing around a lot, I need change, I need new. I need, like, fresh creative spark. Constantly.

[Joe Rogan]

You're an artist.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And so I'm constantly trying to now make sure that whatever I'm creating, that I'm doing it out of a place that feeds my creative, selfish needs. And then secondly would be to get to the truth. Right? So first. First is just creativity, fun, telling stories, hearing things, making, you know, cool. Then secondly is. Oh, I can answer some really cool questions and talk to some really interesting people. And then thirdly is make money to pay my bills, to pay the employees that work for me. You know what I mean? And the offset of all that is that it does help some people. That's. That's the. For me, that's the. The side effect of that, which is why I have a hard time accepting any praise when it comes to that stuff. Like, when people are like, dude, you changed my life with that video, or whatever, right? I'm like, Like, I. That's awesome. Not what I meant to do. Yeah, right. And I got to be honest with that. Like, I'd never set out for that. And I don't want to pretend that I'm like. And I'm just like, oh, I'm so grateful, you know? Like, I, I. It wasn't my goal, and I'm glad that it did that for you. I, I think that's awesome that it did that for you, and thank you for telling me, but I could never accept that as a compliment because it's. It's not even in my top three things. You know, inspiring you was an offset of. Of my own selfish, creative passion. You know, it was. It was a symptom of what I do. And that's awesome. I love that that's the symptom, but I'm not. I'm gonna keep it real that, like, I do this for me, because I love it, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it comes across, man. I don't think you can fake curiosity. Yeah, right. If. If you do, it's very easy for the average person's meter to go off when that happens, and you're genuinely extremely curious and interested in the space you're in. I also don't think you can fake trying to hide showmanship and trying to. Trying to, you know, play off what you're really trying to do, which is maybe you see a space to go to just to make dollars and cents, which, to your point, we see a lot of people in a space like this, and there's a lot of spaces like this on the Internet where that's exactly what they're doing. And again, you can tell exactly. I think people's average meter on that. That is really, really good. But, like, you know, it's also interesting that you have that. That, like, exterior lens of being a magician to evaluate a space like this when you talk to the people you do. Because, like it or not, there's ways just as you described with the telepathy tapes. I don't I don't think it's a lot different with some of the stories that you cover, like, on your show, to where you can kind of maybe pick out a sleight of hand moment or like, wait, no, I would have done that. You know, I would have done that. Like, that. So you. You have, like, another layer to look at it, to try to get to where that truth is. That's pretty fascinating.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And. And it's. It's important not to judge people based on that, I think. And that's become something that I've had to really look at, too.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like, can you explain that more?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, most. Most magicians, specifically, like, magic is a thing where it's. It's, you know, you can start off, you know, being told that, you know, oh, magic is real and God is real, and all this, like, really, like, when you're a child, and then as soon as you learn magic, you become, like, atheists, you become skeptical. You become, like, a lot of, like, most magicians are extreme, at least at one point, become extremely atheist and skeptical of everything.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Really?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Because you're given a secret knowledge, right. You're. You're told something that had. That explains everything. Right. Whether it's psychological manipulation, whether it's like, all these different illusions. You know, you can explain everything through magic. That doesn't mean that's the reason, but you can explain it. It fits everything. You know, you come to me with, oh, you know, I saw this, I saw that. There's a. There's some niche psychological phenomenon that explains whatever happened to you, or a combination of. Of the atmosphere at a certain time of day with the planet. There are methods to everything, but that doesn't mean that that's the reason. And so it's been a journey for me as a magician. To start off, I was raised Catholic, taught all these things are real and whatnot. Yeah. But what wasn't really practicing, just kind of like, innately.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Into it. Yeah. And then as I learned magic and I got deeper into magic, I suddenly became aware of all these amazing methods to things, and I just looked at religion differently now. Now I'm like, I went to. I remember going to a baptism and being like, why is that guy wearing, like, gold and, like, he's got a big hat and he's holding a scepter, and they're like, they got the smoke now, and they're bathing the child and the chalice, and I'm like, like, this is all performative, weird, like, psychological, you know, reinforcement of their ideals. And I'd start thinking like a magician. When I'm looking at this now, I'm just seeing a magician. I'm seeing a guy who goes home, you know, and trolls somebody on the Internet and watch his favorite show and eats Cheetos. But then he gets dressed up in this golden robe and has this scepter and says all these words. This is how I'm seeing it now. I'm seeing, like a magician. Right. And I start seeing all the things. And so as you do that, you start becoming skeptical, nihilist, even kind of cynical.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And. And most magicians stop there. That. That's a line. It's a straight line. It's from there to there. And at the age of 20, 22, you figured out life. And that's most magicians, sadly. And.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's kind of dangerous, though. No. To have the. Even though you have a great skill, to assume you've figured out the most, most wildest, unfigurable questions by age 20. I was a. At 22. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ramsey]

And if you want, if you want a more practical example, look at people who learn, like, physics or mathematics or like, really, really smart people. They have a harder time broadening their worldview because they're held so high in a position of knowledge compared to everyone else. Right. If you look at Neil DeGrasse Tyson, you know, I think he's done great things to get people interested and curious. But, you know, you're also capping what you know because you not knowing something says something about how smart you are. Right. It says, it signals to people that, oh, maybe he's not so smart, so he has to know everything.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

And so magicians are kind of the same way in that they, they, they, they kind of think they know everything always. And so for me, it's been a bit of a journey to realize that it's okay to say I don't know, and I'm willing to listen and try and figure it out. But at the same time, to the original point, if I'm talking to somebody and I clearly see a few tells, that there's something else under the surface or something doesn't match up or it doesn't add up, I have to be able to put that aside.

[Joe Rogan]

You have to put that aside.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, because I don't want to. I'm aware that people make mistakes. People lie. People do. But that doesn't mean. That doesn't explain what happened. And just like a magic trick, just because I can give you a method for something that doesn't mean that that's what's at play here. And that's the real thing. That's really hard for a lot of magicians, a lot of people who know a lot of things to get over. Just because you have an explanation for something, that doesn't mean that's the explanation. Right. There could be something you're not thinking of.

[Joe Rogan]

What you are talking about right now is actually identifying the most commonly understood problem in society at large these days, which is that people, a subset of people, and they tend to be the loudest people, get the most attention potential, especially online, have convinced themselves in the world that everything needs to be 0 or 100. And what you are talking about is the nuance of things.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Which means not everything's right. Not everything is right. Not everything's wrong.

[Chris Ramsey]

There is no right. Right or wrong.

[Joe Rogan]

There's no right or wrong.

[Chris Ramsey]

There is none. Yeah. How do you know what's right or wrong in 100 years from now, whatever decision you made? You know, there's. There's. It's. You know, if you look at, like, hermeticism is really interesting, I think, because you go like the. The seven laws, the seven hermetic principles, and one of them is there. There are no opposites. There are just varying degrees of the same thing thing. And that, I think is really interesting. Like, if you look at, like, heat and cold, like, we see this binary sort of heat and cold thing, but it's just something vibrating faster or slower. It's the same thing. It's just vibrating at different rates. Right. So there is no difference. It's just a varying degree of the same thing. And so I think. I think there's a lot. I. I think we have to treat most things that way. Is, like, look at things. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think. I think, you know, obviously, I think there are. Are maybe things that are objective to us, you know, to our ability to perceive things. But I also think that, yeah, there are things that just. We have to understand. Like, we're smart enough to understand that we don't know everything. Why don't we act like we do? You know, it's. It's like, yeah, we should. We should be able to suspend anything in favor of just data entry.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. You know, yeah, I'm with that. Because, like. Like, if you take those things to extremes, if I walked outside right now and some guy I've never met before who has no idea who I am, walks up to me and blows my brains out, like, you know, obviously, yeah. I would say That's. That. That's wrong. Right on. On a right. Wrong scale. But you don't want to throw. To your point, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here and then start to apply that black or white scenario to fucking everything you listen to. Especially when, you know, with the things we're talking about today, you may be dealing with things that are completely unknown to the scientific universe or that have elements that could explain something that's previously been unexplainable, but not all of it can explain it. You know what I mean? You have to. You have to leave that room for interpretation open. It sounds like that's what you've gotten pretty good at doing with. With the content you cover now. Because you have to.

[Chris Ramsey]

You have to. Yeah, I. You ever hear that, like, daoist sort of story about the guy that, you know, the farmer whose kid breaks his leg?

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Chris Ramsey]

So, like, you know, he's a farmer and he, like, he loses his horse, right? And then the neighbor comes, he goes, oh, that's bad, you know, and he goes, there's no good. Don't really. There's no, you know, he's like, okay. And then. And then enters like a draft and whatever, and like, wins a horse, right? Enters like a raffle and wins a horse. And the neighbor comes, hey, that's good. And he's like, well, it's no good or bad really. It's whatever, you know, Know. And then. And then the son, you know, hops up on the horse now that he has a horse, and he falls off and he breaks his leg and he goes, oh, it's bad, you know. And the guy goes, yeah, not really. Like, I mean, there's no good or bad. And then, you know, the, the war comes along and now they're. They're doing conscription, but he's got a broken leg, so he can't be conscripted into the war. And so he's. Oh, that's good. He goes, I don't really. How do you know what's good or bad, right? So it's this idea that, like, we, we. We. We say labels of good and bad and everything's like. But it's just varying. We don't know. We don't know enough to know if something's good or bad. We don't know what effect that has on anything. So it's really a subjective opinion, you know, on whether something is good or bad. It's based on. So there's no real measuring of anything. It's all about feelings. Right. And so it's better to just act as though. So it's all just data. It's all just interesting and. Yeah, it's all just really interesting stuff. And you can package it any way you want it as a joke, as a entertaining story, or as like a horrific incident or whatever. And I'll just take it all the same and process it, you know, that way and just see what comes out of it. See what kind. What kind of connections we can find or, you know, but if you. Like, there's so many people. I'm sure you're thinking of these people too, where you go. They're like, oh, what are you working on? And you go. And no matter what you say, they go up right now, that's not for me. Right. Like that. I'm sorry. Like that. I do. Like, please stop me if I'm ever that person. Like anything, anything at all. I never want to be that person that completely dismisses something right. Upon hearing a sound bite, you know, I'm like, that's just. That's a detriment to humanity, to everything, man. Like, we have to learn to just. Just shut up and listen for a second, you know, and just. Who cares? Just because you listen to something doesn't mean you have to believe it. Doesn't mean you have to not believe it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's right. You can. You can have your own opinion about it. I think to do the job you and I do, and obviously, like, you're more in one topic. I do a lot of different things, but what we have in common is we got to sit down with people and talk to them for a long time and try to understand where they're coming from. Like, you're gonna walk away from some and be like, yeah, I don't really agree with any of that, but you have to hear it out. You have to actually get that data to understand that and be able to make an educated, personal decision on it. And, you know, this is the other thing that's kind of the problem with our world. It. Just because you think it. And I'm not saying there's something wrong with opinions, but just because you think it doesn't mean you need to fucking tell everyone about it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I mean? Like, there's. There's a time to do it and there's a time to Not. Your guess sometimes is as good as mine. But. But, you know, we kind of live in this world where people. The instant they think something. Yeah, right. And that's not healthy to me. Like, I don't. 99.9% of the tweets I write don't get sent. Yeah, there's a very good reason.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I have very small Twitter following because of it, but I'm cool with that because I see what happens to people when they reinforce, you know, this need to have to give their opinion on things over and over again. They become someone else. I've seen it happen for. I've been on Twitter since 2010. I think I've seen it happen forever. And, like, there's something about that type of technology that, like, our consciousness to bring it back to that has not fully integrated with yet and understood what that does to our worldview. Like, people talk about it, including some people who are stuck in these loops, and then they don't even realize they're stuck in the loop. I'm like, oh, oof. I wouldn't want to be there. Yeah, but you're always stepping out, like, all right, I'm not there on anything, am I? You know what I mean? You got that, like, paranoia, like, am I stuck in this loop with this thing? Because. You know what I mean?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And it usually has to do that specifically with people. It's never events or ideas. Right. It's always people. So that's. That's always been my sort of. Or at least in a. You know, recently has been my threshold of like. Like, what not to engage with. And if it's about a person, I don't engage.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's drama, whatever it is, it's just not worthy of discussion. I think. I think it's not worth it. But if it's events, I'm like, oh, that's. That's interesting. And now if it's ideas. Oh, here we go.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's talk about that. Yeah, we can play with that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. Ideas are fun to talk about.

[Joe Rogan]

You were talking about religion, though, a few minutes ago, and, like, you grew up Catholic, and then when you started to get. Get some of the magic skills, and you would see the things that just, like, slay to hand, almost like you're like, what the is that? You know, you lose that. But, like, what. Let's just start here. Where do you believe it all comes from? You believe there's, like, a God or something?

[Chris Ramsey]

I don't know. I think I'm a little agnostic when. When it comes to that stuff, but I do, you know, I've. I. I had some. I've had some experiences myself, which, you know, for my own. Own ontology, kind of help you know, fill in some possible gaps.

[Joe Rogan]

But what, what kind of experience?

[Chris Ramsey]

Like, I had, I made a whole docu series on leaving the body, like astral projects, like out of the body experiences. And this is something, again, that I would not be comfortable talking about if it hadn't happened to me. Right. It's not. I'd be kind of embarrassed to talk about if it wasn't true. Like, I mean, I'm kind of embarrassed talking about it as a magician. Right. Because I know the, the inherent skepticism that people have. But. And rightfully so. But I did this. It's like with anything, I just want to kind of like, I want to study things myself. I, I don't, I don't want to hear somebody's opinion and then base my whole view of reality on that. Like, that's insane. Yeah, to me, that's insane. To me, it's insane when you listen to a smart person and go, that's me now.

[Joe Rogan]

Now every single thing. Yep, that's crazy.

[Chris Ramsey]

Newest smartest guy said the newest smart thing. Ask me.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know, that's insane. That's insanity to me. I think it's more sane to like, just make up your own reality than to, like, listen to the newest, best thing all the time. But that being said, I had, I had a friend of mine, Nelson Dallas. He's a US Memory champion. Six time memory champion. Amazing dude, dude. And I had hit him up because I'd wanted to learn, like, how to make, like, mind palaces and stuff and like memory stuff, to, like, memorize decks of cars to help me with magic. And so he taught me, we became friends, started doing the memory stuff. And then one day he goes, he's like, you've ever heard of remote viewing? And I go, I go, yeah, I think so. I was like, back in the day, it was like a psychic spy thing and men who stare at goats type deal. And he goes, he's like, yeah. He's like. I was, I was recruited to learn remote viewing, to play the stock market for some hedge fund. And I go.

[Joe Rogan]

To learn remote viewing?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. I go, what? He's like, yeah. I was like on a Facebook group, they hit me up and they're like, anybody want to make money? And he's like, sure, I'm down for like, whatever. And for an hour a day, for a month, he was taught how to do CRV controlled remote viewing by this agency that was hired by this hedge fund and they wanted to train a memory person specifically because they thought he has a really good visual memory. Maybe he's a better remote viewer. And so he'd remote view the stock market. Bitcoin, basically for them. And it's a weird, it's called associative remote viewing, which is like you're remote viewing a target and then you're given there's two targets. And whatever target you're closer to is, has like an up or a down, let's say, behind it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

And then that'll determine what the stock, you know, do we go up, do we go down here?

[Joe Rogan]

That's simple.

[Chris Ramsey]

Basically, essentially is like, is the idea. And they're very successful with it, you know. And that's where I was like, hold on a second. We're putting money behind psychic ability. Now I'm like that. Now I'm interested. Because that's an objective, you know, way to measure whether or not the psychic stuff is real is, let's put money on it. And so I started looking down. And this is actually what started the Area 52 channel was I started documenting this. I was like, can you teach me? So I spent a year doing it with him. Like every day I'd remote view, I'd have sessions, I documented this whole thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Take me in there. What would happen?

[Chris Ramsey]

So basically he would have a target, which is a photo that he would keep secret. And he would attach like a six digit number to that target. And it has nothing to do. There's nothing you can deem from that number that would give you any clue of what the target is. It's a random series, but on a quantum level. I don't even know. There would be some type of entanglement between this number now and this target. They would be linked. And so you would get this number, you write that number down. And now you'd start your controlled remote viewing. Now you'd go down describing the dimensions, the sound, the texture, the feel, the size, the temperature of the it. And then you would draw things. Then you would have this whole thing and you would do this. And after you're done, you would open the envelope and compare to see if you got close. So it's fun to do. And sometimes it was just terrible. You're like, oh, there's no way. This is stupid. But you feel stupid every time, by the way. Like, as you're doing it, you're like, stupid. Like, as you're doing it, you're like, yes, I feel it. Right? And right as you're about to open the envelope, you're like, what this is, this is obviously not going to match. What am I doing And. But sometimes, man, sometimes it matched so closely.

[Joe Rogan]

See, we're like, we're torturing some prisoners in Guantanamo.

[Chris Ramsey]

We'll get into that not discussing people. So. So anyways, I would have. These matches were, like, undeniable. You know, it could be anything. It could be. I could be remote viewing a bumblebee, right? Or a bicycle next to a abandoned building.

[Joe Rogan]

Would you know where it was?

[Chris Ramsey]

No. Nothing. You get nothing. You just. It could.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I know, but, like, when you're matching it, is it like, is that a bumblebee that's floating in fucking New York City or.

[Chris Ramsey]

No idea. No, you just get a picture, right? So. And then you'd base your stuff on that. And sometimes it was like, oh, I'm getting like, sulfuric hot, flowing, red rock, red cliff, dusty. And, you know, there's something. There's something. There's some flowing here. There's heat. And then it was a volcano, right? So you're like, oh, well, that couldn't really been anything else, you know, and everything that I wrote down matched the target. So I was like, damn, that's pretty cool. So I went down that rabbit hole. Ended up speaking and spending time with Joe McMonagle, who is remote viewer 001 for Stargate.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I saw you did an episode with him.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. You know, spent. Spent time with him. Spent time with Dr. Edwin May, who is the Chief Research Physicist at Sri Stanford Research Institute. So they were the guys who were contracted by, you know, the government to study the stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think of McMonicle and can you tell people, like, his full background? Just.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, he's. He was known as remote viewer 001, which is the first accepted remote viewer that they had, that they hired in the psychic spy program in the 70s during Project Stargate. Stargate.

[Joe Rogan]

CIA?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, CIA. It was DIA. It was. Different departments of the DOD used them. So it wasn't just CIA. And prior to that, there was Project Sunstreak, they had Grill, Flame Center Lane. These were all psychic projects that were prior to Stargate. Stargate was just one of them. And basically what they did is they had this guy Ingo Swann, who is a natural psychic. And air quotes come up. He was a really good, gifted remote viewer. Okay. Objectively, really accurate. A lot of remote viewing stuff. So they said, okay, can you develop a system that we can teach soldiers to do this for intelligence collection? So CIA and all these different departments in Intelligence, you know, they. They rely heavily on signals intelligence or, you know, whether that's, like, signals or. Or satellite or human Intelligence or all these different things. This would just be another sort of quote unquote constellation for them to bring in information. And so they're like. And they heard the Russians were doing it, so they were like, we always.

[Joe Rogan]

Got to copy the Russians.

[Chris Ramsey]

We might as well try. And if it's. If it's costing a piece of paper and a pencil, you know, why not? And so they had this done. They had this little system down. They tested 600 people. Out of these 600 people, there were mental level geniuses, there were Stanford alumni, intelligence people, army people, civilians, natural psychics. And out of these 600, only six of them, so 1% showed significant talent. And that one, one of those was Joe McMonagle. And so he had five, I think five first place matches out of six during his tests, which is unheard of. So essentially a fourth place match is if the target is a bumblebee. And I draw and describe this coaster. Okay, fourth place match.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, nowhere near it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Not great. A third place match might be if this coaster was fuzzy and black and yellow, but still a coaster. Now you're like, oh, third place match. That's kind of cool. A second place match might be if I drew a wasp, right? Or a hornet. And a first place match is if you drew a bumblebee and described a bumblebee be and could lay the photo over. He got five first place matches out of six.

[Joe Rogan]

That's pretty crazy.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's insane. And when you look at some of the. The tests that he did and the results, and he was also an artist, so he's very accurate with his drawings. They weren't subjective. They weren't these nebulous, you know, blobs of like, I guess that could be a kind of like a kettle or something. No, they were like artist renditions. They were amazing. And so. So they used him for years, for 20 years that we know of. Right. During these programs, he was used to find a general that was kidnapped. General Doer in Italy. He was kidnapped by some like, rebel force. And he found where he was, how many guards were there. And it was thanks to him that they actually found this American general and they saved him.

[Joe Rogan]

And there's documents.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, there's documents.

[Joe Rogan]

Say, like, that's what's craz crazy. It's like, you hear this and my first thought is, come on.

[Chris Ramsey]

And then, like, they found a tracker in the pocket calculator hidden in on a spy. Because of him, they found downed aircraft, they found things in the ocean, like recovered aircraft in the ocean thanks to him. Aircraft yeah, like jets. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

We gotta, in a podcast like this, we gotta ask.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, they use him for like UFO stuff, stuff too. He told me a story about that. But he doesn't like those targets very much because. No, he just doesn't like it because they're unverifiable. So like, okay, I can describe a UFO or whatever, but he's like, there's no way to verify that the target was that. Right. So it's like it's just up in the air. It wasn't accurate, was it not accurate? We don't know. But they used him to find a lot of nuclear bases too. Like new, like places where they had like nuclear missiles. They were very active with that stuff, in fact. So here's a crazy stat. In the 20 years that Stargate was around, there was 19 intelligence agencies. 17 out of the 19 agencies came back to Stargate for new missions. Right? So if you're running a restaurant, 19 people show up, and then the second day, 17 of those 19 show up. It's pretty good food.

[Joe Rogan]

That's pretty good food.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. 505 individual missions over 20 years between the 17 out of the 19 agencies.

[Joe Rogan]

In a program that they. Big air quotes here. Allegedly shut down at the end.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. And that they said didn't work.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, the joint task force came back 142 times. Just the joint task force 142 times. And Joe and Dr. Edwin May, they both said that the joint task force, what they would do is they would intercept a lot of drug smuggling coming in on boats using remote viewing. That's why they came back 142 times.

[Joe Rogan]

I feel like Eric Prince is using some of this right now to blow up some fucking Haitian drug lords.

[Chris Ramsey]

I mean, if it worked that well, why wouldn't you use it? Right. And again, the thing that people need to understand about remote viewing, because I know a lot of people are rolling their eyes right now and they're like, how can you perceive something, you know, at a distance or away from space and time, non locally. How does that, how is that accurate? Well, the way intelligence works is that they will never use a single source of intelligence to track something down or to strike or to. They will never. They will always use multiple points, right? So they'll use a satellite photo, they'll use people on the ground, an agent there. They'll use radar signals, detecting the radar moved over here. And they have other. Oh that they have this type of radar, which means they probably have missiles there. Like they have all these other things this was just another thing. So sometimes they would have boom, boom, boom. We think the hostages are here because we have this, this, this, this. They wouldn't tell this to the remote viewers because these are all top secret missions. The remote viewers wouldn't know 95% of the targets. They would never even know afterwards because they were classified targets. So the agency, whether it's the CIA or the FBI or the, the joint task force, they would simply give the target to the Stargate taskers, or not even the taskers, just some people at Stargate. The taskers would then hold onto it. They would give the number or the person would hold on to it. They would give the number to the tasker so the tasker doesn't know what the target is. And the tasker would then do the session with the remote viewer. So it's double blind. Even the tasker doesn't know. And so they do their session. They then take that session, give it back to the joint task force, and never see it again. And the joint task force came back 142 times doing that. So you have to assume that something worked, right? So they're getting perhaps, you know, if they're looking for a nuclear base and then they're getting like some drawing of like a nuclear silo in a building that looks the same as their signals intelligence is telling them as their satellite imagery, then they have to go, okay, maybe there is something here.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

Now, they had to do this for an oversight committee year after year to prove to them that remote viewing is real so that they'd renew the budget. So Joe McMonigle went into skiffs doing remote viewing sessions, and they would be like, all right, approved, Here you go. Good to renew for another year. And it wasn't until somebody, because I think one of the MK Ultra programs killed themselves on LSD that like, it blew up and people found out about Stargate and then said, what are you guys doing over there? And General Stubblebine and all. So they, they publicly shut it down and said this stuff never worked. And, oh, it was all horseshit.

[Joe Rogan]

They just changed the name, of course. Looked around the file, said, don't worry.

[Chris Ramsey]

About that whole Charles Manson thing, obviously. Yeah. So, yeah, needless to say, Joe McMonagle is like the LeBron James of remote viewing.

[Joe Rogan]

He looks a little different, but.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's. But he is, though. And what they found out. Here's what's interesting. And I'll get to the out of body stuff in a second, but take your time, bro.

[Joe Rogan]

We got all day.

[Chris Ramsey]

What they, what they found was interesting. And this is something that not a lot of people talk about. But Dr. May, the six people, the 1% that was. That had undeniable talent in remote viewing, they found them to also have synesthesia.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, where they had. Whoa.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. So they could like, you know, perceive colors and sounds. Yeah. All sorts of different. The brain's wired differently. But all six of them. So now they have something to look for. All six of them had that and they were doing all sorts of wild tests with remote viewing.

[Joe Rogan]

That's also. So that's just. So I understand correctly. That's just like an added nice component because I, I don't have a percentage for you or anything, especially off the top of my head. I don't know. But there's people that. I have aspects of that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Like there's I. And I talk to people who have that. Right. So you're saying this is just like an, like another like correlation possibly equaling causation.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, it's element. Absolutely. It seems like. It seems like everybody has some latent sort of talent for remote viewing, but there are people like LeBron James who can just. Who are just better at basketball.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

I can shoot hoops. Won't make it to the NBA. Yeah, not like, same deal with remote viewing. I think what we're seeing is that people who do have synesthesia seem to have some pre existing aptitude.

[Joe Rogan]

And there's something.

[Chris Ramsey]

There's also, well, these, these children from the telepathy tapes, also a lot of them have synesthesia. So that's where it starts to get interesting.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes, yes.

[Joe Rogan]

But this is also where it gets way above my pay grade because it can also have to do with. I'll just call it very high level here so the doctors don't get mad at me, but certain functionality within the brain, you know, that's like literally biologically different or they have something extra. And this was one place. Like I've had Lou in here twice when he was in here for episode 237. The first time we only talked about the remote viewing and like the last eight minutes, that episode, it was like a three hour, 20 minute episode. So it's like we, we didn't get to do like the full gamut, but like when you read his book and then hear him talk about it, that was one place where even off camera, I was like, you're making this sound way simpler than it is. You know, like the way he seemed to describe it. I don't know if this was like his Intention. Then he was saying, like, well, it was kind of my intention, so you be the judge of that. But it was almost like, yeah, anyone can do it. Yeah, you just go in a room and do it. And, like, then I hear you talk about talking to your friend and being like, oh, this is something interesting to learn, and you go in and do it. And I started to think, maybe, but then the meter in me goes, no, but then, like, you can actually test it. Like, did you actually draw what's in an envelope? And then if you did, it's like, well, shit, there's got to be something there.

[Chris Ramsey]

That's right. Yeah, there's something.

[Joe Rogan]

But you're also a magician.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, exactly. And that's why I know that, like, there is. There's a big bias. There's absolute bias that you have to get out of the way when you're. You're looking at a session and you're looking at the target. You know, if you're evaluating your own session, you have to get that, you know, confirmation bias for sure. So I would score all, like. I think my highest score that I ever scored myself was, like, a 6 on 10. And that's when, like, I matched up, like, with, like, pretty good. You know, I gave myself a 6 on 10 because I'm like, I. I understand confirmation bias, but I've seen results. Nelson, his. I mean, one of his first ones. And that's usually the way it goes. Like, at first, you have, like, the best sessions you've ever had, and then it drops down to, like, you're so far, and then you kind of come back. It has something to do with, like, expectation, ego, or whatnot. But he drew, like, a literal whale breaching out of the water, and that's what the target was. He described it like blubber falling, gelatinous life form breaching water. And he drew fins on it. And it was literally that.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

That.

[Chris Ramsey]

And you're like, what are the odds of that? That's pretty insane. So when you see Crazy. Yeah, when you see things like that, you go. And then you see the next session, it's completely wrong. And then you're like, oh. Or it's like, at least, you know, okay, I kind of see how you can fit that. But when you see ones that are, like, really strong, you go, man, really? Like, there seems to be something there. So, yeah, they did all sorts of tests. They tested whether or not this was a frequency.

[Joe Rogan]

A frequency.

[Chris Ramsey]

See, because a lot of people think it's like a radio tune in to, like, something. So they they went in a submarine like 600ft, you know, underwater, did remote viewing tests, worked almost even better because of the isolation, you know, because they were just like so focused down there. So we know it's not a frequency.

[Joe Rogan]

They didn't take them in that Titanic sub, did they?

[Chris Ramsey]

Maybe that's what they were doing on there. And, and, and then they tested something really interesting. And this is a working theory, I think, that Dr. May is working on right now. Entropy has a. Has a lot to do with determining like the accuracy of a target. So if there is a higher rate of entropy at a target, they will get better results, more accurate results. And that speaks to the brains or the minds or the consciousness's ability to detect change. Like we are hardwired to detect change. That's what we do. Like for instance, if you do, you know, the Ganzfeld experiment.

[Joe Rogan]

Remind me.

[Chris Ramsey]

You'd put headphones on and play a frequency and then put like, cut ping pong balls in half, put them on your eyeballs and shine red light. And after about 10, 15 minutes, you wouldn't see red anymore. You'd see black, and you wouldn't hear the frequency anymore. You'd grow accustomed. It's like being in a house that stinks.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

You don't know until you walk in.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris Ramsey]

So, same type of thing. Our brains are hardwired to detect change. And when there's no change, it's kind of invisible.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. It adapts quickly.

[Chris Ramsey]

Exactly. So a rock would be much harder to remote view than a nuclear installation, because a nuclear installation in this quantum realm has. Entropy is creating. So what they would do is they would actually go to these target sites. This is so interesting. They would pour liquid nitrogen at the target sites, and that would yield more accurate results for the remote viewing session, which is kind of nuts. So you're like, oh, wait, there's an actual. And so that's why these nuclear sites were actually easier for the remote viewers to find where these missiles silos or missing children or people that were being threatened, like in a hostage situation. That was way easier to remove you than the lottery. Right. So it's, it's, it's almost on a survival.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Basis that we have this. And that's what Joe really believes, is that these abilities, we used to have them a lot more like the most powerful people in the villages weren't. Weren't the strongest. They were the most psychic. Right. They were, those were the most revered. We'd go to them and ask them for guidance, and they would tell us, you Know, water is over there, or don't go there at night. Predators will get you. And that helped us survive to some extent, maybe. And so that's kind of. Their research is kind of based on that. Like, these are instinctive abilities that we just don't really need anymore, and maybe that's why. And. But we still have them. Like, if somebody pulls a gun on you, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

You kind of have like. Like, you can see ahead or you can, like, know what they're thinking for a split second. Even GSP the fighter, I had him on the podcast.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. You've been hanging out with him.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's really cool.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, it was super cool. And he. He says that too. He's like. During fights, he's like, I don't know if it's precognitive or if it's deductive. I don't know if. When somebody's throwing a punch at me sometimes when all the adrenaline's there and, like, high stress levels, he knows what the opponent's going to do, and he can just move out of the way and like, it's nothing. And he. And he goes. I don't know if that's deductive from training, you know, because of all the thousands of hours, or if he gets into this type of flow state and he's precognitively, like, maybe microseconds, has this, like, reaction because he knows what's going to happen. So it's. It's an interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

That is interesting.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I would actually, on that one, as a total outsider looking in at that, I would lean towards more. It's probably deductive because those guys think about, like, the 10,000 hours.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's mastery.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. He's put on probably 30,000 hours of this in his whole. You know what I mean? Like, he's. And when you're fighting, even when you're just training and rolling around and stuff, like, those guys go at it, bro. You're going at it. When you're a kid doing that and you're constant, like, there's a form of simulated survival mode every time you do that. And I think it's actually, like, hearkening back to some of our. Like, when you really look at, like, the brilliant jiu jitsu guys and stuff like that MMA guys, like, it hearkens back to some of our basic evolutionary wirings that we have. Like, they, like, rebirth it in the modern era. And again, like, they've been training in this stuff since they were kids, but absolutely, I do. I don't want to Say it's not possible.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That there could be something predictive there, like where you can feel it. I mean, a good example might even be. Remember when. When Ali dodged like. Like 37 punches in a row or whatever. You're watching that, and yes, that is like a lifetime of training. But there is also something there where, like, he knew when the hand was here that it was going to end at this point, and when that hand was here, it was going to end at this point. And he knew that 37 times in a row.

[Chris Ramsey]

Sometimes you just know, too, like, whatever.

[Joe Rogan]

It was, I don't know how many it was.

[Chris Ramsey]

A lot of times. Yeah, it's a crazy clip.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know, I. I had to talk about this. I was doing a lot of research into this, but mixed mediumship is something that happens.

[Joe Rogan]

Mediumship?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Is it a coin? A term coined by Eric Wargo. He has a book called Time Loops and it's really interesting. But. But the idea is that magicians, we encounter sometimes what seems to be real magic, and magicians are reluctant to talk about it in that way because they'll chalk it up to coincidence. But I've looked into it quite a bit. What's interesting is you'll be in a type of flow state and a type of I can't say anything wrong. Everything I do is right. It's just bop, bop, bop. As a magician, you're performing and, like, nothing can go wrong. Everything's going my way. Everybody's kind of like, just believes that you can do it and there's this energy and then you start trying just stupid, risky shit. As a magician, you will. And you can have Oz on here and he's a big skeptic. He'll tell you. Yeah, that happens. And what he'll also tell you, and what most magicians will also tell you, is that those risks, they pay off more than they should. They pay off compared to the times that they shouldn't pay off, they pay off way more.

[Joe Rogan]

Why?

[Chris Ramsey]

So that's the question. Is it precognitive? Is it retro causal? Is it some field that we're tapping into? And what is it? What is that? But it does happen a lot. So what I did is I reached out to my group of magicians that I know. So, like. Like, I had like 200 magicians write to me and tell me a miracle that happened to them while performing some, you know, fun, you know. Miracle.

[Joe Rogan]

That miracle.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, like a miracle. Because as a magician, we don't let the audience know when something goes our way. That wasn't supposed to happen. We'll just go, ta da. Right? Because we're the magician, right? It's supposed to be amazing. That's what it. That's what magic looks like. It looks like my plan. Exactly, Exactly. And every magician does this. Yeah, every magician. And so I had them write, you know, and I have all these amazing stories, and I. I. On the Magic Channel that I have, I put out a documentary recently. I went to Spain. Jesse Michaels was there with me, and he got to. He got to witness some of this stuff. And, you know, they told me all sorts of stories that are just the most. Like, there's no explanation for that. And we don't tell anybody about it except other magicians. You know, we'll never tell a layperson. Oh, my God. That wasn't supposed to happen. Yeah, you know, we'll tell each other. Dude, you believe this? What happened yesterday? Dude, I'm telling you, like, example, I had. I was in Bermuda with some pals. We're doing magic at a bar, just hanging out. Like, this group comes over, and they're like, oh, you guys are magicians. Show us a trick. I was like, yeah, sure. I was like, do you have your phone?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Phone?

[Chris Ramsey]

She goes, yeah. So I was like, put your phone on the bar. At this point, I have her passcode. I won't tell you how I have her passcode, but rest assured, I have her passcode. She doesn't know I have her passcode.

[Joe Rogan]

How the fuck do you get her passcode?

[Chris Ramsey]

Well, there's.

[Joe Rogan]

You sick fuck.

[Chris Ramsey]

There are many ways to get a passcode, but I have a passcode. So now, as a magician, I'm looking like, all right, how do I reveal this? Right? That's where magic comes in. It's not just. I just don't go, that's impressive. But I'm a magician. I want to play this up. I want to try to, like, play with things that are happening around, try to, like, make it a little more magical, right? That's the reveal. So I have this information, and I'm thinking to myself, all right, how do I do this? I can look at a receipt, maybe, or look at, like, you know, try to find the numbers matching somewhere. I know it's a personal number, probably a birthday of some type, because it's 1012. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, it's probably like, 10th of December, 12th of October. And, you know, like, women usually go for, like, a personal number, and a lot of times that's a date, guys. We usually do patterns like 1, 2, 3, 4, 2, or same number type deal, right? Or like, we'll do the cross or, like, corners, or like, we'll do some pattern. But not always, but sometimes. But I have the numbers. So I'm thinking to myself, okay, it's probably this. So I go, I want to spice it up a bit. And I go, I'm not going to open your phone. He is. And I point to the bartender. I was like, come over here. And now I'm thinking to myself, whatever. I'll. I have enough in my repertoire to where if this doesn't work, I'll figure something out. I don't know what I'm going to do if it doesn't work, work, but I'll figure it out. I know that, right? So I'm very confident. It's. I call it a misplaced confidence. Like, stupid confidence. I have no business being this confident about what's about to happen. And I go, go ahead and put in four numbers. Random four numbers. It puts in four numbers, doesn't open. Everybody's like, everybody kind of. There's like a He ain't got it. Yeah, yeah, he ain't got it stress moment. That kind of like. Everybody kind of like, oh, my God, that would have been sick, right? And I say, yeah, that would have been a miracle. But I see, you know, one day that'll. That might work. And then I say, I think the number is more personal, though, if I'm not mistaken. Now I'm doing some warm reading because I already have some information. She's like, oh, it is.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, but you already knew the code.

[Chris Ramsey]

I already knew the code. I know it's a personal number because it's 1012. And it's like, that's a. That feels like a date, right? So I'm like, I think it's a personal number. And I go, let's try this. Why don't you put in your passcode? Just, again, if it doesn't work, whatever, we'll figure it out. He puts in his passcode, phone opens. Now, my friends, my magician friends are looking at me like, what trick is this? Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Because they're.

[Chris Ramsey]

They're confused because they know what trick I'm doing, and they know, you know, and. And then they go, well, hold on. So I go. I take it a step further. They're freaking out. And I go, I think you guys have the same birthday. What day were you born? And it goes 12th of 12th of October. 12th of October. And they both start freaking out, as if I made that Happen. Right. So what are the odds? I calculated like 1 in 100.

[Joe Rogan]

And you keep a poker face when you're doing this.

[Chris Ramsey]

You weren't like, what, are you kidding me? This is. This is the. The trick of a lifetime, dude. I hope they never see another magic trick in their life.

[Joe Rogan]

I hope they're not watching this.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, still. Still magical cycle, right? Still synchronous. Still beautiful. So, you know, something like. And here's a funny thing. I was in Spain with Jesse, and I was telling this because I was talking about mixed mediumship. Here's where it gets meta and weird.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's already meta and weird. Chris, man.

[Chris Ramsey]

I'm sitting at a table with a magician friend of mine, Juan Colas. He's an amazing Spanish magician, and I'm talking about mixed mediumship because I'm about to make this video, which he's featured in, and I'm asking him about a miracle that he's performed at. And, you know, I'm. So I explained to him this story, the same one I just told you. This is a few weeks ago. I'm not even lying. He goes like this. His phone's on a table, and he goes, open my phone. And I go, what do you mean? And he goes, open my phone. And I go, no way. 10:12. His phone opens, dude, I'm telling you. And I. Okay, okay. I know you're thinking he's a magician. Maybe change his passcode. He's not that type of magician. He's not? No. He's not a passcode magician guy. He doesn't give it. He's like. He's like a. Like a hippie. He's got dreads and he's all like. He's do this contact juggling and stuff. He's like a dope, dude. His phone was there and he goes and it. And I. I swear, I'm like, dude, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm like, this is what I'm talking about. And so it's this mixed mediumship, this weird coincidence that happens, and I had a friend of mine who is a comic, and he does like, like crowd work, and he goes, dude, I know what you're talking about. Because, like, during crowd work, sometimes I'll just guess people's jobs and I'll be like, oh. And because he's in the moment, and he's just kind of like, as a joke, he'll be like, bam. And it's the. And then, you know, coincidences will start happening and it's this weird Thing, So I don't know what that is, but I think there's something. Maybe there. Maybe we're collapsing waves intentionally through this flow state. Who knows?

[Joe Rogan]

What's my passcode?

[Chris Ramsey]

I don't know. No idea. Six digits though, right?

[Joe Rogan]

No, four. I do the old school.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay, well, maybe we'll do it later.

[Joe Rogan]

How would you figure that? The fuck. Like, that's.

[Chris Ramsey]

That.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that shit. What did he do with Joe Rogan? He figured out, like, his bank account.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Number. And then he figured out another number or something with it, like the backup or. So it gets. It gets weird, bro.

[Chris Ramsey]

I was gonna ask, have you looked into, like, with the mixed mediumship? Like, anything with, like, overlap with psychedelics about that? Because that's something. Like, in my personal experiences, I've noticed a lot, too.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, when you're, like, in the midst.

[Chris Ramsey]

Of these experiences, there's way too many synchronicities. Yes. Way too many. I feel the same way when I'm on shrooms. Yeah, I'll like, dude, I'll be on shrooms. God, dude, no. I'll, like, be in line at a concert and then I'll, like, turn and I'll see, like, someone I haven't seen in 20 years, and he'll also be on shrooms. And then we're like, oh, my God, what's happening? And I'll have, like, the best night. Like, things like that happen a lot on psilocybin.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you bring some. Some equipment to fuck with me here about?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You going to do that?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, we could try something.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, let's. Let's. I mean, you got. You got my. My Intrigue up right now. I don't know how you are getting passcodes. That's. That's where it gets weird. I got to give you the Israeli spy phone out there. You got to see if you can talk to Tel Aviv or something and tell me who's on the other end.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's hilarious.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Eric Prince sent Joe and me.

[Chris Ramsey]

I don't know. Maybe I'll just. Maybe I'll just do a car check. Keep it light.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, let's do a car check trick.

[Chris Ramsey]

All right.

[Joe Rogan]

That's lighter than Israel.

[Chris Ramsey]

They just bring it back to card tricks. I don't even know what type of card trick I'll do, but.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. What kind of twisted deck is this?

[Chris Ramsey]

This isn't from shuffle it.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. Any way I can shuffle.

[Chris Ramsey]

Sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Like the casino shuffle.

[Chris Ramsey]

Knock yourself out. You shuffle it badly, you can do that, too.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, now you're on my shuffling, huh? I knew we forgot to turn that on. Sorry, Joe. No, it's on. It just, it was going. Oh, it was going off.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Chris Ramsey]

I, I can just show you some slight of hand stuff.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, show me some slight of hand stuff.

[Chris Ramsey]

Take one.

[Joe Rogan]

You look over there.

[Chris Ramsey]

Here, take one.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, look. Turn around, turn around.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay, got it?

[Joe Rogan]

I got it.

[Chris Ramsey]

I haven't looked at it yet. Look at it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Oh.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay. All right. Put it back, put it back.

[Joe Rogan]

Just, just turn around.

[Chris Ramsey]

Gone, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Do something with it. I know.

[Chris Ramsey]

I actually lost it. I don't know what it is. Hold on. That's not it, right?

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Chris Ramsey]

What was the card?

[Joe Rogan]

Queen of spades.

[Chris Ramsey]

Are you sure about that?

[Joe Rogan]

I'm positive. Yeah, it's queen of spades. I'm dead serious. That's.

[Chris Ramsey]

Why did I just get him? No, look. Son of a.

[Joe Rogan]

What the.

[Chris Ramsey]

Now watch. Look, it's the. Here, sit down, sit down. I'll show you something. Really? How many, how many cameras are, I mean, are you ready? Ready? Watch, watch. Queen of spades.

[Joe Rogan]

Huh?

[Chris Ramsey]

See, that works. Watch it. Queen of Swedes. Look.

[Joe Rogan]

Huh? Now I'm still not tracking.

[Chris Ramsey]

All right, have a look at here. Here's what's crazy, is that you shuffle this.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Still right here. Right? All right, one more time. One more time, I'll show you. Very slowly, it'll travel to my pocket. Queen of spades. You see it? Watch. Already in my back pocket already. There, there. Watch the replay. Sorry. Sleight of hand, Joe.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't like this. I don't like the sorcery.

[Chris Ramsey]

This is slight of hand. This isn't sorcery. Here, take one. Take one.

[Joe Rogan]

You gotta, you gotta flip.

[Chris Ramsey]

What do you mean?

[Joe Rogan]

You gotta turn around.

[Chris Ramsey]

I have to turn around, Right. All right, here, go.

[Joe Rogan]

You're on my show.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay, Got it. All right, here. Actually, let's try this. Let's have you sign it. Here, take that. Sign it. I'll turn around so I don't see it. Sign the face of it.

[Joe Rogan]

The face of it so I can't.

[Chris Ramsey]

See what type of card you have. I'll turn around here.

[Joe Rogan]

Go.

[Chris Ramsey]

Let me know when that sign done. Good. All right, Take the card.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I kind of.

[Chris Ramsey]

Let me take the card. I, I, I promise you. I promise you, man. All right. I'm not looking. Looking away. All right. It's going in the deck.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, all the way.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Where's your pinky?

[Chris Ramsey]

Pinky?

[Joe Rogan]

Your other. Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Okay, here, hold your hand up.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't have six fingers.

[Chris Ramsey]

No, hold your hand up. Put your other hand on top Cover it up for me. Cover it up. Cover it up. I'm gonna reach in there. Not too hard. I'm gonna have to reach in there. Don't. Don't cover it up too hard. I'm gonna reach in there. That's not it, right? No. Okay, I messed up. Hold on. Give me one more chance here. Oh, I got it. All right, don't move. Don't move. Stay there, Julian. Don't move. What if I made this disappear? Would that make up for messing up? Two, three, gone. We'll never see it again. It's gone forever. All right, the back of my hand. But what if I made the whole deck? What if I made the whole deck you're holding on to right now completely vanish from inside your hands?

[Joe Rogan]

No, you're not going to make it vanish. I can feel it. It's right there.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Ready? What the fuck?

[Joe Rogan]

What the fuck? Get the close up on that. What the fuck is that? What did you do? What the fuck? I don't like that. I like the alien talk better. Let's go back to that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Here we go back. Got the cars back.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that like an Elmer Super Glue?

[Chris Ramsey]

Like.

[Joe Rogan]

Like element 115 deck.

[Chris Ramsey]

Exactly. Makes the cards transparent too.

[Joe Rogan]

Did Bob Lazar give you that? Oh, that's crazy.

[Chris Ramsey]

Nicole.

[Joe Rogan]

I hope people can appreciate what that on camera. I mean that was nuts.

[Chris Ramsey]

Sleight of hand's always better impression person. They're going to probably pick up on something on camera for sure. But yeah, we'll leave it as is.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. You learned all that in a dimly lit bar?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean it's a good place to practice. I agree. But still like it. Like do you go to classes for that? Like you just self taught everything? Come on. That go my light.

[Chris Ramsey]

This is cool. Watching the replay, I'm. I'm trying to figure out how many angles you got on me here. I'm like, oh God, do you ever. That one's gonna hurt me. Yeah, there's like, there's like six guys.

[Joe Rogan]

But like do you ever like with some of your guests when they're coming in at first to get off, get them off kilter.

[Chris Ramsey]

Not to get him off. No, no. It's always, always.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. Travis Wall. And we're gonna find out the truth today, pal.

[Chris Ramsey]

Travis loved the magic. You know, I hung out with Travis the night before. Usually when I have guests over, they stay for two nights. So we're up in Canada. So we'll fly them in and we put them up in a hotel. Then I. I Have dinner with them. I get to know them. Next day, we go for breakfast, and then we pod. Then we hang out afterwards.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow. You really hang out with.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

People like that in different styles. I kind of like to go in. I like to hang out after.

[Chris Ramsey]

Sometimes go in raw.

[Joe Rogan]

But, like, I like. Yeah, pause. But, you know, I like when. When people come in here and I'm like, all right, let's feel each other out on camera again.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know what I mean? It's like raw dog your guest, you know?

[Joe Rogan]

But then I. I. God damn it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Pause, Pause.

[Joe Rogan]

But I. I do talk to a lot of guys where that's, like, you kind of get in the zone. And I've done it before, like, where you hang out with them for a few hours, and that really flows right into the podcast, too.

[Chris Ramsey]

That's true.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's. So you do that every time.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, Yeah, I like. I like hanging out with them, and I know they're coming in from, like, far because we're in Canada, so I like showing them a good time, make sure they're taken care of. Yeah, I'll usually. Yeah, I'll usually perform for them. I did. That's when I had Travis over, and Travis brought his grandson. And so we were waiting for dinner, and I. I did, like, an impromptu little mentalism show for them and just to.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that'd be cool.

[Chris Ramsey]

Just for fun. And they loved it. But, yeah, I'll do that. I think it's a fun way to break the ice.

[Joe Rogan]

You taught. You did a podcast around the same time I did with. With James.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yep.

[Joe Rogan]

Back in January. Was that the first time you had ever really talked with James, or did you know him before?

[Chris Ramsey]

No, I only met him at the. At the congressional hearing, and then I did in November. Yep, got it. And then I did some magic for him there, and he's like, James, like a giant kid, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

Loves man. No. Yeah, yeah. He's so. So fun. Oh, did you see that?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Ramsey]

He's the best spectator. Yes. He's awesome. Everything is magic to him. So, you know, Shonen. Magic is doubly so. So he was. He was great. Yeah. Brought him.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

What.

[Joe Rogan]

What did you think of the. If you met him at the congressional hearing? I forgot you went that. That was the one in. In November. So trying to think. Who talked there? Lou talked there. Who else was talking at that?

[Chris Ramsey]

It was Lou. Mike Gold, the guy from NASA.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. Okay.

[Chris Ramsey]

Shellenberger and Tim Gallaudet.

[Joe Rogan]

What it. So that was, like, kind of one of the first ones where they were actually taking stuff on the record publicly in front of Congress. There have been a couple before that. But what, what did you make all that? Did you think, all right, this is just surface level, like hey, congratulation, participation trophy, it's a start. Or was it more like you felt like it got somewhere?

[Chris Ramsey]

Hard to say, because I think when you're in that room, you feel like it has way more importance than when you're watching it on tv. I say that so like sitting in that room, like the, I think the, the immensity of it wasn't lost on me. Like as a Canadian magician, I'm sitting courtside in Congress for like a UFO hearing. Like that blew my mind. Just that. Right. So, you know, seeing it from that lens, I think it was much more earth shattering, groundbreaking and like pushing the boundaries than watching it. Because hindsight, you know, I'll be like, oh yeah, okay. I guess there was, you know, this, that or whatever, you go back and forth. But being there is, is really intense. But I think it's good, I think it's good that we're talking about it no matter what. I, you know, it comes down to, you know, even if people are psyopping the UFO space or, or people are, are, are grifting or making TV shows or dramatizations of things that didn't happen or saying, oh, it's all my lab stuff or whatever it is, they're all talking about it. And I think that's good. I think it's, I think it moves the needle as a society, as us just sort of accepting it as a reality. I think the more we hear about it, the better. Even if it's in not such a favorable tone, I still think it's good. I don't think there's a bad way to talk about UFOs. I think as long as you're talking about it, you're keeping it in people's sort of cultural zeitgeist. And then from there people will hopefully make their own decisions based on, you know, whatever evidence they're, they're looking through. But yeah, so I think it's good, I think it's good that we have these hearings. Well, I don't think there's anything bad about it here.

[Joe Rogan]

Here's one. One way I look at it where it could go the wrong way, right? If I cook the greatest burger ever, let's say I'm a five star Michelin chef, I get one of those Kobe burgers, I cook it perfectly, I measure like the density of it, like the whole bit. And I go to serve it to someone and when they put the rest of the burger together in the kitchen with the lettuce and tomatoes, they put lettuce and tomatoes on it that have, that are molded and have some worms on it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Now I cook the perfect burger and let's even say the mold and the worms technically never touch the burger. If I go serve that burger to the customer and they open it up and look at it and see that they go, and they, and they're like, give me a new one. That's crazy.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they want a whole new burger. Even though the burger hasn't been touched, like the good meat right there, they don't want you to come back with that same burger and new lettuce and tomato and bread to just get of, rid, rid of the bad. They want a whole new thing. And the thing I worry about with anything related to stuff that is not of this earth, that again, I, I, I believe exists, it's just like, what, what's the medium and truth through which we're getting it? The thing I worried about, I worry about is getting the zone flooded with so much information that is straight up wrong or lies or misinformation that shrouds pieces that could be truthful, such that that burger of truth gets forgotten about and it's thrown out, baby, out with the bathwater. Do you ever worry about that with some of the guys who come forward in some of the stories that maybe it seems like that seems a little weird?

[Chris Ramsey]

No. Because if, if you're, if you're lying about something, why are you lying about it? Why are you, why are you lying about something? You know what I mean? Like, why, why are you talking about something if it's not there? Like, so I think, yeah, if you're talking about it, we're talking about UFOs. So if you're sitting there having congressional hearings about UFOs that don't exist, I think it's just as important, I think, I think if you're going on record time and time again, month after month, saying UFOs are not real, I think it's just as valuable as if you're going in Congress and saying they are real.

[Joe Rogan]

Meaning just introducing it into the zeitgeist.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, you keep saying, saying it. You keep saying UFOs aren't real. I was like, okay, what's your, you know what I mean? Like, what's, I, I don't, I think as long as you bring it up, you're keeping it alive. It's like people who. You know, from like, a religious standpoint, people who go like, I don't believe in God. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in God. It's like, all right, bro, why keep bringing them up?

[Joe Rogan]

Makes you think about it.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. You know, you're. You're. I think. I think if we're. As long as it's in our psyche, the UFO thing, which I think it always is now, I don't think there's any way we go back on that now. I think we've gone too far in to come back out. I don't think there's going to ever going to be a dark ages where we just stop caring about the UFO thing I think we're in now. And sure, there's going to be. People say it don't exist, there's going to be people saying it does exist, but there's going to be more of both of them, those people, as we move forward. And that's just more talk about the subject. That's more, you know, interest there, whether good or bad or, like, real or not real. It's like these people, you know, who. Who go on social media just to debunk everything. It's like that's all they do. It's like, you know, they're funny because those people are like the ones who call a lot of the researchers grifters. But it's like, where are you getting your money from? You're out here just making a living, like, telling people UFOs are not real. How. How are you making a living?

[Joe Rogan]

They're still in the industry, you're saying.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, you're. I mean, you're talking about it every day. You're arguably talking about UFOs more than I am. How.

[Joe Rogan]

Where.

[Chris Ramsey]

Where's that money coming from? This is wild. That should be looked into. Not people making money, talking about UFOs. How about people making money funny saying UFOs are not real. Well, I think you should distribute it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think you should distribute it and look at it across the board and saying, all right, who's really just saying shit to say shit here? Regardless of what direction it is, it's crazy to me.

[Chris Ramsey]

It's like, that's your whole job, like, you spending more time on social media than I do, and I get paid for it. Yeah, that's wild.

[Joe Rogan]

The thing is, like, there are unexplainable historical records throughout human history that point to things like. I'm not saying what it is specifically or whatever, but things that don't make sense. And I'm not just talking about like pyramids conspiracy or something like that. I'm talking about legit written down. Like, wait, what did they just say about 3 foot people coming from the sky in fucking minus? You know, in 2000 BC in South America. Like you see stuff like this and when you see it over and over again, it's not like some fucking giant like 8,000 year Psyop or something. You know what I mean? I'm not saying it's aliens, but like, like, again, like we said it a few times today, but there is a there there. And so if you're, if you're like completely throwing that out and not considering it, that's kind of nuts. But the reality is before 2017, that's kind of what people did. I mean, this was like a. You were crazy if you. It was like, oh, he's one of those. Like, if you talked about UFOs and then boom, they come into the New York Times and you know, you get someone from the Pentagon saying, hey, we got some, got some documents on this. And people are like, oh, now, now it's safe to talk about it. It's a, It's a shame that it took that. But like, I agree with you, it's now like in the zeitgeist to the point that it's hard to get out. The place where I might disagree with you is that if the zone is flooded with way too much bullshit over time that the average person is like, what, what did that guy say last week again? Oh, yeah. And then that was all right. That, you know what? Fuck this stuff. I could see the general. I'm not talking about the people that are fans of this that are genuinely curious about all of it or smart about it, like you. I'm talking about the average person who you got to get on board. I do feel like we got to be careful with how much gets flooded into the Zone because it's going to lose people.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Be it as it may, I think it's fine if we lose. If it loses people. I don't think that's a. I don't think that, you know, I don't think aliens care. You know, the bottom line, I don't think they give a shit if you believe in them or not. Yeah. Like, so, so, you know, if it makes you happy to, to, to just ignore it completely, that's cool too. I'm not, I'm not. I don't have anything against Someone who doesn't want to entertain the idea that's a choice that you can make, and that's totally cool. I'm not out on a crusade to convince people I'm, you know, I hope that people who are on a similar journey end up finding a video that I make made and that they go, oh, this guy gets it. Or, you know, I'm there. I'm right there. That's who. That's who my videos are for. And it seems like that audience is growing. So the audience that I have, like, the videos that I make aren't for the skeptic. Although if you're skeptic and curious, watch the video, by all means. If you want to shut it off, unsubscribe and block me, do that too. I don't care. But hopefully it reaches an audience that. That think similarly. And that audience, like I said, seems to be growing, which is a good sign.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think there's a world in which, not naming any specific one, but, you know, a form or some forms of organized religion can exist with a known understanding that aliens who are far superior to us do exist as well?

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, like. Like the Vatican, specifically, you mean, like.

[Joe Rogan]

It could be any of them, but, yeah, sure, go with that.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. I mean, I definitely believe, from what I've read, you know, and I've only read a limited amount, I'm not an expert on the matter, but Diana Pasulka's work on that stuff and, and how there does seem to be some narrative shifting in the translations from a lot of the original texts to what made it into, you know, people's Bibles or what have you. And so I do think there might be, you know, changing a word here or there for what reason one can speculate that, yeah, maybe they're, you know, they don't want people to know about a certain other presence. I don't know. That would be interesting. That is the ultimate conspiracy, you know, but then my practical mind goes, there's a comedian who. He said it so, so, so beautifully. He goes, you know, after all the world's powers have come together and created the perfect conspiracy, you know, and they did all the things that. And they're just about done. They go, only one thing left to do. Plant the clues, right? It's like, let's get the guy who does the. The Federal Reserve to team up with the guy who does Mad magazine and, like, work, you know, it's like, what are we, you know, so 30 is that you gotta leave him a treasure map? Yeah, exactly. You know, so the whole Da Vinci Code, you know, wild goose chase, I think is fun and entertaining. I don't think is maybe. I don't think is a big reality as people make it out to be. I don't think there is, like, this one power.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, you're pro. You're probably right about that because I think we ignore. In a lot of these conversations where we talk about this, we ignore human fallacy and human incentives.

[Chris Ramsey]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Which includes the worst downside. And I think that there are different separately motivated groups of people who, in conjunction of taking whatever actions they do, may create this full reality that, you know, from the outside looking into you and me might look like all these people are working together.

[Chris Ramsey]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And there are. And to be clear, there absolutely are conspiracies and there are people who want to do things bad in the world and that do do that. But I'm saying, like, all together, like, organized.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah. Probably not. Probably not as organized as we think it is.

[Joe Rogan]

It's probably. Probably more like just a lot of bad, of really. A lot of pieces, of really foul stuff that you meet like a.

[Chris Ramsey]

A lawmaker and you go, oh, he's. He's dumb.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? That's what I'm saying.

[Chris Ramsey]

Like, how could he keep his mouth shut about anything?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know, they'll say the wildest shit sometimes, you know, on Twitter and stuff, and you're just like, what? Yeah, yeah, I gotta.

[Joe Rogan]

Like.

[Chris Ramsey]

I thought you guys were like the gatekeepers. Nope. You're just saying everything that. That someone told you.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, whatever's on the teleprompter.

[Chris Ramsey]

Wild. Yeah, somebody. Somebody just told you something and you're like. The next day you're like, tweeting about it. I'm like, okay, so these aren't the people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, you live up in Canada. You see that up and close up there. Oh, shit. Things those guys say. I know, they make our guys look smart, and I don't think our guys are too smart.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah, it's insane to me that, like, you know, we. We. We put a lot of stock into, like.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh.

[Chris Ramsey]

We always say the government is this, like, overarching, you know, sort of umbrella corporation, but when you meet them individually, you go, oh, these just dumb people like me.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris Ramsey]

They're not any smarter. Okay, sure, they maybe know more about law or more about this, but, like, the decisions they're making are full of mistakes, just like the ones that I would make. And so it is hard to. Hard for me to fathom that, like, there is a select Few that control everything when there's so many variables of, you know, strange and. Right. But one thing that I will say is, you know, like you said, there. There are incentives and there are ways to get people to. To do things or to not say things. You know, that is true. There are people that are being threatened, you know, to keep this a secret. That. That is no secret. And there are people who are being paid off. There are people stuck in, like, lifelong NDAs, and their families are being threatened. So that. That. That does exist. And if you go back to the Manhattan Project, you know, if you think we can't keep a secret, you know, on that level, we kind of did already.

[Joe Rogan]

We did.

[Chris Ramsey]

You know, and what else even happened.

[Joe Rogan]

There, too, by the way?

[Chris Ramsey]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. The offshoots of that is probably what we're dealing with today with the phenomenon. Actually. You've had a few Townsend Brown discussions with Jesse, I'm sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, dude. Jesse blows me away with his. His historical understanding of everything and how it ties together.

[Chris Ramsey]

He's so into it, especially the atomic period. Oh, yeah, but you have that. But also think about this. Like these guys, they were considered heroes, patriots for keeping a secret, right? They were. And I think a lot of those guys were sort of grandfathered into the UFO space and that mentality was too.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean grandfathered into?

[Chris Ramsey]

As in, like, hey, you kept your mouth shut about that and you're a hero, so we need you to keep your mouth shut about this and be a patriot.

[Joe Rogan]

Don't talk about those paperclip Nazis and.

[Chris Ramsey]

The UFOs, do you know what I mean? Because it was for the greater good type deal, right? So I think with the UFO programs, the same thing. I think a lot of these guys are just. I think the people they look for in these programs are like patriots. Above all, I think, like, you're serving your country and that's why you got to take this to the grave, because it's for the greater good type deal. And I think that's a good. I think that's a good starting point, other than threatening and NDAs and whatnot. So I think a lot of it comes down to people doing what they feel is right. And who knows, they might be doing what is right by keeping a secret.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's where it gets weird, because it's like, what, do people deserve to know, too? Yeah, you know, it's a part of your existence here on Earth, like, that knowledge to understand, like if. If you also could share in some of that intelligence. If that is, in fact, what exists. Like, hey, this is what. What we know exists. This is where it is, or whatever. That is part of the meaning of life question. And it gets to, who are you to gatekeep that? But also, you know, they can simulate what would happen to society if they release that information.

[Chris Ramsey]

Triggers an event that ends it all.

[Joe Rogan]

That's right. So it gets really scary. It's like that old Bob Salas story James Fox has talked about before when he's talking about, you know, the nuclear bases and, you know, the alleged UFOs that came there. It's. It's like. It's almost like they were taking matches out of the hands of a baby.

[Chris Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like we're just that baby playing with matches.

[Chris Ramsey]

Of course. I think so. I think that would be, you know, if you had. Yeah. If you had a baby show up with a shotgun, you know, you'd be like, that's weird. He doesn't know how that works. Yeah. And then he shoots and you go, oh, take. Take the shotgun. Get the shotgun away from him.

[Joe Rogan]

One of those little AI.

[Chris Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

All right, real quick. I gotta go to the bathroom, so let's take a quick break. But I wanna. It's funny you brought up Los Alamos. I want to talk about that. And we gotta get to some Lazar stuff, too.

[Chris Ramsey]

All right. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

All right, cool. Thank you, guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that, like, button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.