#361 - NXIVM Cult Victim on Hollywood Elite, 17,000 “Slaves” & being a “Good Girl” | Sarah Edmondson

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Julian Dorey Podcast — Episode #361
Guest: Sarah Edmondson
Topic: NXIVM Cult Victim on Hollywood Elite, 17,000 “Slaves” & being a “Good Girl”
Date: December 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode features Sarah Edmondson, a former high-ranking member of the NXIVM cult, discussing her experience within the organization, the psychological manipulation she endured, and the sinister rise and fall of NXIVM under Keith Raniere ("Vanguard"). From her recruitment as an aspiring actress seeking self-improvement, to her eventual role as a whistleblower, Sarah provides deep insight into the mechanisms of cult indoctrination, the allure of elite connections, and the hidden darkness beneath glamorous facades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Allure of NXIVM

• NXIVM’s Pitch: Touted as an "executive success program" and a personal and professional development community, NXIVM attracted seekers under the promise of fulfillment, meaning, and community.

  • Sarah: “I joined in 2005, what was ostensibly a coaching program to be more successful, to be your best self.” [02:07]

• Comparisons to Other Movements:

  • NXIVM’s approach and curriculum mimicked aspects from established self-help groups (Landmark, Tony Robbins), therapy, Scientology, yoga, and even large group awareness trainings.
  • Notable Quote: “Keith took that from that and that from that. You know, brilliant in the sociopathic way.” [00:07]

• Early Red Flags:

  • High-pressure sales tactics, non-refundable deposits, hierarchy signaled by sashes, and unorthodox “Vanguard” worship set a foundation of manipulation camouflaged by claims of self-empowerment.

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2. Recruitment and Psychological Manipulation

• Cult Indoctrination Techniques:

  • Language was weaponized ("feel-felt-found"), dissent reframed as personal limitation, and questioning was discouraged by labeling doubts as "suppressive tendencies."

  • Sarah: “Mixing true things like therapy and self-reflection… with the fact that we're now seeing things that are problematic. But I can't call it out because it’s my internal system saying I should leave…” [75:23]

  • Notable Quote: “When you look at something like the Vow or Scientology, it’s so obvious—but it doesn’t look like that at the beginning. It looks really good.” (Sarah, [41:27])

• The “Good Girl” Complex:

  • Sarah connects her personal psychology—her parents’ divorce, desire to please, being the “good girl”—as factors that made her susceptible to NXIVM’s methods.
  • “I think it made me into a good girl. Like, I was very much… a straight-A student… I followed the rules.” [47:31]

• Community as Bait:

  • The promise of belonging was a powerful draw, especially for those with backgrounds of feeling like outsiders or experiencing family fractures.

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3. Hollywood, Power, and Enablers

• Elite Recruitment:

  • A-list Hollywood actors (Gerard Butler, unnamed others), heiresses (the Bronfmans), and political elites (Emiliano Salinas, son of Mexican president) were targeted to lend NXIM "legitimacy" and attract more adherents.
    • “I was at trainings at A-list actors’ homes… It was blowing up, we thought, this is happening.” [106:50]

• Parallel to Industry Abuse:

  • Sarah draws direct parallels between cult power structures and those of Hollywood, referencing Harvey Weinstein and the “cult of enablers” who facilitate abusers.
  • “We call them ‘flying monkeys.’ You know, from The Wizard of Oz. So the witch has the flying monkeys to do the dirty work. Weinstein also had assistants bringing Rose [McGowan] to him...” [56:40]

• Cover and Respectability:

  • Men—in particular, strong, charismatic types like Sarah’s husband, Nippy (a former Ivy League quarterback)—were included mainly for external credibility, providing cover for the actual (and largely female-targeted) manipulation.

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4. Keith Raniere: Persona and Reality

• Cult of the “Vanguard”:

  • Raniere, presented as a brilliant, ethical Renaissance man (athlete, pianist, celibate monk) with a genius IQ, held himself apart and above members, presented via mystique, cleverness, and intimidating intelligence.

  • “Brilliant in the sociopathic way… We're going to thank him before every class. Thank you, Vanguard. Wait, we’re calling him Vanguard?” (Sarah, [00:07 and 78:36])

• Calculated Mask:

  • Raniere’s persona was deliberately crafted, from the “Jesus vibes” of his appearance to shifting from openness about polyamory to portraying celibacy, based on what would better serve recruitment efforts.

    • Host Julian: “Do you think it was deliberate that he wore longer hair and a beard? What I'm getting at is Jesus vibes.”
    • Sarah: “Yeah, I thought it was his assistance, but his spiritual wives… cleaned him up.” [110:21 & 110:41]

• Truth Behind the Curtain:

  • In reality, Raniere’s academic, business, and personal backstory was fabricated—he was deeply manipulative, with a predatory pattern toward women and outright criminality (including potential murder-by-poison of inner-circle dissenters).
  • “The original women that he had from his inner circle… I believe that they were poisoned. And he poisoned them.” [117:18]

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5. Rise of DOS and Overt Abuse

• Formation of DOS (“Dominus Obsequious Sororium”):

  • A clandestine “secret sisterhood” pyramid where Sarah and others were branded, blackmailed, and induced into sexual slavery under the guise of female empowerment. Ranieri’s initials were literally branded onto women.
    • “Not good branding. To brand women with your initials.” [14:42]

• Revelation and Whistleblowing:

  • Sarah, with help from Mark Vicente and others, documented their exodus for self-protection, which ultimately resulted in the explosive HBO docuseries The Vow and contributed to NXIVM’s FBI takedown.
  • “We filmed our unwinding… Like, ‘Holy shit, we’re in a cult.’” [09:48]

• Trauma of Betrayal and Recovery:

  • “Huge betrayal. And that wound’s taken a long time to heal… When I have a flare up I call my therapist or go for a long walk by the beach.” [27:14]

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6. Personal Journey — Acting, Search for Meaning, and Aftermath

• Hollywood Dreams Crash into Reality:

  • Sarah details her background in acting, her disillusionment with the industry's lack of depth, and how existential angst led her to pursue spiritual and personal growth—opening the door to NXIVM.
  • “My parents were very politically and socially active… I was going to be an actress and use my voice to have an impact.” [16:09]

• Role of Upbringing:

  • Divorce, being an only child, and need for belonging ("family recovery fantasy") all compounded her attraction to NXIVM's communal promises.
  • “If I could just get my parents back together… I think that comes into play later when I’m gonna get into a cult and like, just wanting family.” [37:22]

• Healing and Deprogramming:

  • Learning to “have needs” and accept love, as indoctrination taught her to view needs beyond basic survival as “non-integrated fixations.”
  • “We weren’t allowed to have needs… I need to self-soothe, I need to love myself, I don’t need anything from the outside world… We really had to unwind to be like, I need to connect with you.” [126:07]

• Microdosing as Healing:

  • Use of microdosing mushrooms for anxiety as part of recovery: "Microdosing is really good for me. Really just, like, totally removes my anxiety, and I just feel present." [45:53]

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7. Exit, Aftermath, and Final Lessons

• Long Road to Leaving:

  • Increasing frustration with unethical practices (unpaid expenses, constant changes, financial exploitation), paired with mounting evidence of dark behavior, led to Sarah’s break and eventual whistleblowing.

• Continued Danger and Active Belief:

  • Some former members, including Claire Bronfman, remain loyal to Raniere even after prison sentences.
    • “She [Claire] just got out of prison and as far as I know, is still a believer. That’s why she got such a high prison sentence: because she refused to renounce him.” [147:44]

• Empathy for Victims:

  • Sarah expresses deep empathy for those who, like her, were sincerely searching for connection and meaning:
    • “Nobody signed up for this… Keith’s the real bad guy here, she [Bronfman] got roped in.”

• Ongoing Purpose:

  • Despite burnout and trauma, the knowledge that her speaking out helps others exit high-control groups is motivating:
    • “Every time we want to quit, we get an email or DM: ‘I just got out of X thing because of The Vow or your podcast.’” [119:48]

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “We were told he was a judo champ, chess player, concert pianist. Oh, and he's celibate… Wait, we're calling him Vanguard?” — Sarah Edmondson [00:07]

• “I wanted to be a good girl. I was very much… a straight-A student. I followed the rules.” — Sarah [47:31]

• “There’s so many parallels between Scientology and what NXIVM was, from a marketing perspective… Join a community that’s going to keep you accountable.” — Julian [04:10]

• “Situational vulnerability. That’s what they call it in the cult space. Everyone goes through it—whether with career, relationship, new city… It’s not because you’re weak.” — Sarah [39:39]

• “When someone has to sell themselves as a celibate, they’re [having more sex] than anybody.” — Julian [50:36]

• “Mixing truth: therapy and self-reflection is uncomfortable… but now, if I see something problematic, I can’t say so—it’s my internal system saying I should leave.” — Sarah [75:23]

• On betrayal: “Huge betrayal. And that wound’s taken a long time to heal.” — Sarah [27:14]

• On The Vow filmmakers: “We weren’t making an HBO documentary when filming it. We knew they were going to come after us. This was more of a protection: let’s film our unwinding.” — Sarah [09:48]

• “He was not very smart… had like a 2.6 GPA… but had been manipulating people, especially women, since he was 12.” — Sarah, on learning the truth about Keith Raniere [97:04]

• On Keith poisoning inner circle: "The original women … both died when I was there. And I believe that they were poisoned. And he poisoned them." — Sarah [117:18]

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Critical Timestamps

| Time | Topic | |----------|----------| | 00:07 | How Raniere copied elements from other movements; “Thank you, Vanguard.” | | 02:07 | Sarah’s introduction to NXIVM and the purported goals/program description | | 04:52 | Parallels with Scientology; how NXIVM differentiated (or claimed to) | | 14:42 | Branding women—Sarah’s realization about “bad branding” in DOS | | 27:14 | Betrayal and healing: “Huge betrayal… wound’s taken a long time to heal.” | | 39:39 | “Situational vulnerability”—anyone can fall victim in the right moment | | 75:23 | Manipulation via reframing discomfort as personal limitation | | 117:18 | Allegations Raniere poisoned women in his inner circle | | 147:44 | Aftermath: Bronfman still a believer despite prison | | 119:48 | Continuing to help others by sharing her story |

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Flow & Tone

• Language & Tone:
  -- Candid, darkly humorous (especially from Sarah, who is 8 years removed from the cult)
  -- Open, raw, and willing laughter and self-deprecating insight
  -- Heavy empathy and nonjudgment for herself and other survivors
  -- Julian’s style: casual, probing, knowledgeable about cult phenomena

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[Summary Continues in Part 2...]

(Reach out if you would like a more detailed breakdown of the DOS/branding structure, more background on the Bronfmans and celebrity connections, or the latter phase of Sarah’s exit/whistleblower arc.)

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This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the psychology of cults, the pitfalls of the self-help industry, power dynamics in Hollywood, and the strength required to escape and expose coordinated abuse.

Transcript

[Julian]

One of the most textbook sociopaths you will ever come across. Keith Ranieri, who created nxivm. Guy was a psycho.

[Sarah Edmondson]

All these different things that we've studied. Scientology, yoga, disciplines, the Mormon Church. Keith took that from that and that from that. You know, brilliant in the sociopathic way. And we're going to call this guy Keith Ranieri, who created this, and we're going to thank him before every class. Thank you, Vanguard. Wait, wait, we're calling him Vanguard? Oh, it just means leader of a philosophical movement. Like, holy. We're in a cult. And we were told he was a judo champ, chess player, concert pianist. Oh, and he's celibate.

[Julian]

Oh, right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He was just this Renaissance man.

[Julian]

Do you think it was deliberate that he wore longer hair and a beard? And what I'm getting at is Jesus vibes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I thought it was his assistance, but his spiritual wives, they cleaned him up. This is my opinion. The original women that he had from his inner circle, they both died when I was there. And I believe that they were poisoned. And he poisoned them. Okay, I think I need to tell you this because I'm going to go into Nexium land for a minute. So one of the principles in NXIVM.

[Julian]

Was that, hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge, huge help. Thank you, Sarah Emundson. We are finally here. Thank you so much for getting into town for this one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you for the invite, and thanks for your patience with my travel schedule.

[Julian]

Of course. Of course. Your story is quite literally unbelievable. It's an overused word, but it's also, I think, an example for a lot of people out there. You and I were just talking off camera about how we are all susceptible to things that, you know, we may not even realize we're becoming a part of. And I can't even imagine what it's like to kind of like, come outside of that and be like, whoa. But, you know, not to bury the lead here. You were involved in what is now known as the NXIVM cult for many years. We'll go through the whole story today and whatever you want to, but, you know, for people who aren't familiar with the Nexium cult and what that was later, thanks to you and some other brave people revealed to be. What. What was it?

[Sarah Edmondson]

In simple terms, Sure, I can give, like, the overall Cliff Notes, and then we could go down some rabbit holes, as I'm sure we will. Yeah, So I was involved in what would probably be best described as a personal and professional development program. People might be familiar with things like Tony Robbins or Landmark, and. And I'm not champion either, either of those things, to be totally honest, because I. And we can get into why later, but there's a lot of coaching, executive training that's, you know, around that everyone's sort of accessible to and, and, and is aware of now. In 2005, when I joined, this was at the height of like the, you know, the human potential movement and also before cults were particularly, you know, there weren't as many documentaries on HBO and Netflix as there are now. This. It's very different era, so it's sort of a stage I want to set. But yeah, I joined in 2005 what was ostensibly a coaching program to be more successful, to be more your best self. And I joined as somebody who was really looking for more meaning and more purpose and a whole bunch of other things, because I know you're going to ask me questions about my psychology and my parents, you know, my, my parents and my kid, you know, my. Not my kids, my childhood and whatnot. What set me for that, which I'm happy to get into. But yeah, I joined because I wanted to be a better version of myself. I was an actress. I was living in a basement suite. I had bigger aspirations than where I was, and this looked like a tool set to help me achieve that. So basically it was a, it was a community. What was supposed to be. It's supposed to be a community of like minded humanitarians working on themselves. It's basically a therapy based program. So it was seminars and workshops that were designed to look at your belief system, upgrade the software so that you could be more joyful, integrated, optimal. And that's what it was supposed to be.

[Julian]

Well, as you know, I've. I've had some people in here who were involved with Scientology.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Julian]

We've done some podcasts on that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Listened.

[Julian]

We get. Did you listen to Jenna?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Must have listened to Jenna. Yeah.

[Julian]

Unbelievable. Yeah, right. And you know, she's born into it and everything. But I bring that up because there are so many parallels, so many that I see between Scientology and what Nexium was from a marketing perspective. Like, be like you were just saying, be a higher version of yourself. Accomplish goals that you're having trouble getting even focused on right now. Join a community that's going to keep you accountable for this. You know, we'll get into it. But like the ESP stuff and all that, very similar In a lot of ways, to some of the auditing psychology that Scientology has. So, quick question. Were you aware back in 05 or 06 what Scientology was at the time, too?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Great question. I'd heard of it. I didn't really know much about it. As it became more prominent, like, I was still in Nexium when the Scientology Tom Cruise jumping on the couch incident happened. Remember that? And that was the first time that I was like, what is this? And I remember asking some of my upper. Upper ranks, people above me, like, what is Scientology? And I had some people who had taken Nexium and. And had also done Scientology, and they said it was very similar, like you just said, in its goal. Sorry, similar in its goal in terms of, you know, let's be happier and work through our limitations. But in terms of how they achieve that. I was told it was very different. So our approach was kind of like talk therapy, but getting to the root cause of an issue. So if you. If I was your coach and you said to me, hey, like, you know, every time I start a podcast, I get really nervous, then I would be like, okay, what's the stimulus that. Like, when does that nervousness set in? And then we figure out what the stimulus was and how that made you feel and, like, what part of your childhood belief system, when that was created and what. What you made that mean, that would. Then you would then, like, put onto the podcast that would make you feel nervous, and it would be like an unwinding of that belief system to the point that whatever the trigger was would no longer stimulate you anymore.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Apparently Scientology had a whole other different approach. I didn't know that much about it, but I do remember thinking, hey, you know, who. Who am I to judge? Tom Cruise is happy? And people think he's in a cult. People think we're in a cult. So, you know, who cares? People are doing their own thing. I didn't have a. A lot of judgment on, you know, good for him. He's happy. And then I saw Going Clear. But that was after I left, right? And that was one of the first movies that I saw that I was like, holy shit. First of all, I wasn't. I wasn't. I know I'm jumping to the end. I'll tell you everything you want in between. But that moment of. I literally have it in my notes section. All the things that I saw in the. In Going Clear that were almost word for word. Some of the words are word for suppressive. We, you know, we use that word slightly different meaning but supposed to. Same vernacular, same system of control, you know, shunning people who leave. They call it disconnection. I mean, I could put my notes and we could look at it and dissect it if you wanted. That's fascinating. But, yeah, we've done five or six episodes in Scientology, and every person we interview is like, oh, I didn't know you did that, too. We had. We also had that. Like, that's crazy. So similar. So similar.

[Julian]

Yeah, but they were way more successful than it's Scientology. Yeah, well, they were. I mean, they've been around. They were around a lot longer and just bigger in size as well.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Global.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know what. What? When I. When I read about Scientology or interview people, I feel like L. Ron Hubbard was some, like, kind of like a sci fi writing nerd who wanted to create this club and, you know, like, made a little club. He's like, you're going to be in the military, and you're going to wear this hat, and you have a clipboard. And then it just got, like, out of control. Like, it is. It was almost like. Like, they're cosplaying the military or like, like. But it's huge. And they have real funds and real buildings. And why isn't like, the IRS is up everybody else's butts? Why aren't they.

[Julian]

Oh, it's crazy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Why aren't they dealing with that?

[Julian]

Don't even get me started.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Don't even get me started. It's like, that chaps my ass more than anything else in the cult space.

[Julian]

Yeah. All you got to do is, like, go to Clearwater and look at all the empty buildings that they own and be like, something's a little wrong.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And I did that. I actually drove through recently for. I don't know if, you know, Mike Rinder, who's one of. One of the exact. Pass.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So that is memorial. And I had to drive through that creepy area, and it is creepy.

[Julian]

Very.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And if you stop, they will come and, like, walk to your car and, you know, get. Tell you to get the out because they own the. They own the sidewalks. They own the city.

[Julian]

Yeah. It's. It's. It's crazy how. How something like that still exists at the level it does in the open Internet era blows my mind. It also blows my mind that something like Nexium took even until 2017, 2018, to actually have the whistle blown on it. Because, you know, you mentioned how Ron Hubbard guy was a psycho. He died in 85 or 86. Right. So he died pre Internet era and all that. I. I guess in hindsight, like, it could make sense something like that could have some subsistence after that. But like Keith Ranieri, who. Who ran, who created Nexium, you know, this guy was alive the whole time and in charge of it. And openly allowing things to be. That was. That was the other thing. Like, everything was allowed to be videoed. Right? Like, you guys had a record of all this stuff. If people have not seen the vow on hbo, hbo Max, which you are in, obviously, where you guys, a bunch of. You tell the story from what it was like inside there, and you're getting literal videos of step by step, or every time you're talking about something, there's evidence of it right there that can be shown to people. It's very sinister to watch because it's like this. I don't know, it's like you're watching a dystopian 1984 reality and you guys were happy while you were in it. Yeah, it's very, very. I mean, was that pretty cathartic, I guess, like making that show?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, there's so many points I want to address, what you just said. Hold on. Well, first of all, I'll answer your last question. I didn't. We didn't know we were making an HBO documentary when we were filming it. Right? We. At first we were filming it because we knew that they were going to come after us, which they did. And this was more of a protection. Like, let's film our unwinding. Like, holy. We're in a cult situation. We weren't like, we're gonna sell this hbo. Which, by the way, I didn't. I'm the subject, and I'm not a producer. I'm just filmed in it. But we didn't know what it was going to be. We didn't know that it was going to come out after Tiger King and like, blow our lives up. And everyone was going to watch it because it was Covid. Like, that was, you know, not in the. In the cards as far as we knew, but the filming of it, all the stuff that they filmed behind the scenes. I don't know if you know this, but it was filmed because Keith wanted a library of all his genius so that when he died one day we could, like, refer to it. In fact, when he did forums and he would, like, speak in front of a crowd, I never did this because I just thought it was a dumb exercise and I maybe was lazy or whatever, but there was always be, like eight people sitting in the front with clipboards and stopwatches. And they'd be like 8 o' clock and they had columns and it'd be like joke, like metaphor.

[Julian]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Quote. And so be like, you know, Keith makes a joke about global warming and farts at 8 p. You know, whatever. And so that you could cross reference. And then eventually there'd be like, you know, did Keith ever talk about global warming? And you say in this forum on this date, and then you'd pull up the library. So that's why he did it. And the footage that you see in the vow is, is everything that Mark had access to, which was a lot because he was, you know, hired as the filmmaker. But there was Mark Vicente. Mark Vicente, who is the guy who brought me in and also the guy who brought me out. So. And we can talk. Yeah, well. But all of that was like just what he had. There was like so much more. I'm sure I had heard since leaving that the people that remained, the loyalists, were taking that footage to make a documentary to show how wrong we are. And you know, how much I loved it. I'm like, I never said I didn't love it. Like, I'm very clear that I had a great time until I didn't.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, until it got dark. Yeah. You know, people like Sarah, you know better. Let me. Yeah, I'm. I'm very. I'm very honest about that. Like, yeah. Bad. From the beginning, the guys at True.

[Julian]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Julian]

Right. They give you some sort of payoff. They give you some sense of community. They give you things that appear to be happiness. You met your husband, who's still your husband today in the cult. And so there were. There were. There were all these friendships and happy memories tied with it. But then eventually they. They basically use that baselining against you to then normalize things that are obviously completely fucking insane. But they do it slowly, starting with just language patterns or expectations on your job, and then eventually work their way to using those same manipulation tactics to pull you into dos, which we will talk about later.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Julian]

Which is certifiably insane. I mean, it's just so tragic to watch it play out on camera. I'm glad that, that, you know, Mark was able to get access to all these things. But it underlies the point that, you know, you're talking about a man and Keith Ranieri, who is one of the most textbook sociopaths you will ever come across. And his own sociopathic behavior, as so often happens, is really what did him in. Because he wanted evidence of everything that he was doing. And he thinks it looks great. It makes him seem like a God, but it made him seem like a fucking psycho to everyone on the outside.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was his undoing. And also creating a. We call. We call it dos. You can call it D O S if you want, but I don't. I don't know actually what his intentions were because I never talked to him about it. Because when I was invited into that, it was supposed to be not related to Nexium at all, which, of course is total. But when he created DOS and that we went through that experience, I remember thinking, you know, people think we're in a cult. Like, I knew that people thought we were a cult, but I also thought they didn't understand because they weren't in the curriculum, and if they went through it, they would really get it. And. But when that, when they started to ask, like, this is not good. I hate to use the word, but I can laugh now. Not good branding. This is not good branding. To brand women with your initials. Like, that's not a good idea. If people think we're at a cult already, let's not do that. Like, that's not really smart, you know?

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So anyway, I'm. This is very serious, obviously, but I'm like eight years out. Sometimes I can talk about it very openly and. And find other times I'm like, yeah, I don't want to talk about that right now. So.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We'll just.

[Julian]

I can imagine it's a mix of. Of emotions. You know, there's part of it. You have to be like, holy and other things. It's, you know, it's just. It's something you can't. You can't on. You can't erase that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Exactly.

[Julian]

Yeah. So where you were an actress before any of this happened. Right. So you had. You had gotten on some TV shows and movies in Hollywood. So you already had.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I had some credits, yeah.

[Julian]

You had some credits and some sort of success, but you were looking for more. What did. Was that something you wanted to do as a little girl, like, becoming an actress?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I always wanted to be. I wanted to be an actor, but I also had. My. My parents were very, like, politically and socially active, and I was very much instilled in with some altruistic, like, change the world and make the world better, and we used to march for peace. And like, my dad was a hippie and like, that's. That was sort of ingrained in me. Like, if there was something wrong in the world, we would write letters to the mayor. You know what I mean? Like, it takes. It takes some action. Yeah, we're going to do something about it. So I kind of had the idea that I would be an actress and then use my voice to have an impact. And that's sort of. That was what. It wasn't like, I want to be a famous actress to be famous. It was like I could have. I could be famous to have a voice.

[Julian]

Did you like the idea of pretending to be other people on camera?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I love.

[Julian]

So you love the actual activity?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Oh, I did. Yeah. And it changed over time. Like, when I was applying for theater school, it was either theater school or psychology because my parents were in that world. My mom's a family therapist, my dad's a counselor. I loved, like, I was a camp counselor. I've always been kind of like, you know, cruise director with my. My little clipboard. There are certain, you know, roles that people fall. So that was a route I was going to take. Or route, as you Americans say.

[Julian]

Yeah, they both work.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Both work. Okay. So that was something I considered. I was going to go into therapy and then become like a drama therapy therapist and then ended up going into theater school. That was a real shitty experience I went to. It was just a program where it was like, under transition. So I was a theater major, like Bachelor of Fine Arts. So I call it my bachelor of fuck all. But my BFA at a school where I'm a class of 16, which means you're supposed to come out with theater experience. And just the way it worked out, like they did Romeo and Juliet. You think I want to be Juliet? It's my middle name. I was Gregory. Okay. You know who Gregory is?

[Julian]

It made you play a dude?

[Sarah Edmondson]

It made me play a dude, yeah. With like three lines.

[Julian]

Very transitive.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, super ahead of the Times. This is 1998, like, way ahead. So I played a dude. But point is, I got out of theater school. I was getting out of theater school. I was like, I did not get the experience that I needed. Meanwhile, I had a boyfriend at the time who had gotten into film and television, and he had an agent and he was on a TV show. And I was in Montreal and there was like the. The film industry there was booming, Booming. And I basically went right into film and TV at a time when I guess, like all my other friends were like struggling theater people. And I was like, film and TV is where it's at. And I got a bunch of great credits. I was like, guest stars on a number of shows. And I was like, this is. This is what I want to do. And I loved it.

[Julian]

Yeah. How did you. So you were able to just connect through his agent and get some opportunities and then kind of build that into some bigger stuff?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah. I got. I basically got with his agent and she sent me out for auditions and I. It's. It being an Anglo Saxon. Anglo Saxon. Sorry, that's not the right word angle. Anglophone. Anglophone. Like an English speaking person in a French city in where the film industry is, like, just starting out. There wasn't many. There was. I was a small. I was a big fish in a small pond versus going back to Vancouver, which is where I'm from. After theater school was over, I was now a way bigger pond. And that was. That's when Things were hard for me and I was like getting little roles and doing beer commercials and even when I was doing theater and doing, doing film and television, I mean I wasn't, I was like, you know, on a vampire TV show, like teen stuff, like the equivalent of Nickelodeon, it was called YTV up in Canada. So I was doing those things and it was fun. But I was like, this isn't necessarily that meaningful to me.

[Julian]

You're not changing the world.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not changing the world? No, not with this vampire teen soap stuff.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So then there was a big chunk of time there was a, like a writer strike, I believe it was like 2001 is when I moved back to Vancouver. All this stuff happened where I was like, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And that's when I, that was like made me ripe and ready for cult recruitment. So it just wasn't like, you know, wasn't. It wasn't as fulfilling. I was, it wasn't. And I also had a lot of friends who were quite successful in film and television at the time. And I saw their success and I also saw them not like even when they were successful and they had lead roles and shows, which is sort of the goal, like get a lead in a show. They weren't necessarily happy. So that was something that was sort of in my awareness.

[Julian]

What do you, what do you think was driving them not being happy? That they, it still wasn't enough or they were working too much?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think, I mean, honestly, I think the film industry is kind of vacuous. You know, it's what? Vacuous? Like it's just not super. It doesn't have a lot of depth. I mean, every now and then a show will come around that, that, you know, has impact, but most of the time it's. It doesn't. It. I don't know, like film and film and television I'd loved and I almost, after this whole story, I'd almost like to get back to it because I want something simple, you know what I mean? But it's, it's, it's not as theater's exhilarating, it's exciting and it's live and you're on stage. I see Joey nodding in the corner. Yeah, he knows film and literally, yeah, film and television is like, it's a lot of waiting around and you're in your trailer and it's kind of anticlimactic and it's a whole different skill set. And I think that when you're working 12 to 14 hour days on a show. Even if you're the lead. It's. It's a lot. It can. It's not necessarily that glamorous or fun or unless you're working with incredible people and it's like an indie shoot or something, then. Oh, I miss it. Now I'm talking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you do. Yeah, now I do.

[Julian]

It's funny how in the moment. Yeah, God, this sucks. And later you're like, damn, really? We had the life.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. There's pros and cons. There's pros and cons. Nothing like walking into your own trailer and, like, you know, like, oh, this is my home for the next month or something. And then at the end of it, you're like, I need to get back to my space.

[Julian]

Yeah. No, I. I will say, like, because they film a lot of stuff in Hoboken now, so we should trellis all the time. I'll pass those things. I'm like, I don't think I'd want to spend, like, six hours every day in that thing waiting around.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

You know, even. Even, like, when JLO was here. It's a regular. I'm sure hers has, like, a couple nice things.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah.

[Julian]

You know, you're still cramped in this little tube for a little bit, waiting around, going, all right, when's my second scene? Yeah, I don't know about that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Especially if you're, like, just a day player. Like, do you know what a day player is? It's like, Joey knows. It's just basically, you're there for the day and you're a principal role, and you're. You've got a, you know, a couple scenes or whatever, and you're not famous enough to get a trailer, so you basically have a room that's a bench that you could lie down on and, like, a little tiny toilet. And it's like a jail cell. Right. So you don't want to stay in there. So you end up, like, going to hang out by craft services and, you know, it's.

[Julian]

Yeah, I feel like I'd be hanging out with the crew, just, like, shooting the. Or something.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Totally.

[Julian]

I'd go stir crazy in those places.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Later I learned I'd bring my laptop and, like, get work done. I'm not. I'm not good at, like, just doing one thing, so I'll use this time to, you know, return emails.

[Julian]

So you go back to Vancouver at some point when the writer strike is going on. Were you still with the same guy or the same.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, we broke up. He was like, my first Serious. Like, we lived together.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Boyfriend. And we thought we were gonna get married. And we were like, we should probably, like, not. We probably take a little break and. And then we'll get married. And then we both started dating other people and. And we didn't. Yeah, we didn't get married. No. And he's a great guy. We're still in touch. Yeah. Yeah. I was laughing at Sarmo saying, she's still in touch.

[Julian]

Yeah, she's still in touch with some interesting people, as that's a little bit of a different story, but.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, this guy's. This guy's. Gary.

[Julian]

You weren't like, 12, right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. That's good. I was 20. Like, 21.

[Julian]

22. I love how she said that was such a straight face, too. She's like, Yeah, I was 13. He was 21. I'm like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Come again? Hold on.

[Julian]

She's like, yeah, we're friends on Instagram. Like, I don't know if I would. I love you. She's great, though. Yeah. Thank you for hooking that one up.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, of course.

[Julian]

She was a very, very fascinating conversation. And by the way, what you were saying about how that manipulation works, I can tell you both Joe and I were completely sold on that. Talking with her as far as. Oh, yeah. That marriage she was in and what that guy did to her makes all. Especially considering, like, her strengths and her flaws. Like, makes all the sense in the world how that would have happened.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She. I don't know if she told you how she. I guess she had seen the vow and one of the cult experts connected us and. And we just instantly got each other.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We were instantly understood. And I feel like that's something that survivors. Even though she wasn't in a traditional cult, a cult of one, same dynamics, same manipulation, same dangling of the, you know, the future, faking, and all the. That Mr. Fox did, like, so it was textbook patterns. And I. I get it. I don't judge her for it. I embrace her, and that's why we're good friends.

[Julian]

Yeah. And I. I know that's. That's great for her to have someone like you too, who can relate and be a friend to her. Because when. When you hear, like, some of. For example, the phone calls that. That you had recorded once, you. Once. It was like, oh, wait a minute here, you know, And I hear your tone of voice while you're still kind of like, fighting with this. Like, is this what I think it is? Or is? You know, and then I go, listen to her tone of voice when she was like, on the run or going through it with Mr. Fox or her con man husband and all that. It's the same octave. It's the same kind of like. Yeah, it's. It's. It is, but it's like what comes across is like, oh, oh, these aren't. These aren't stupid people or anything. These are people who are so deep in something that they can kind of see the light on the other side. But, you know, someone's got to give them a flashlight to get all the way there. You know what I mean? It's. It's a very. It's. As, like, a viewer, it's a terrifying thing to. To feel because, like, I know you. I know both of you now. I know how you talk. I know how you are, and I can only imagine, like, what that must have been like at the peak of it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Well, I could say now that my voice is a little bit more in my body versus, like, totally disassociated, but actually, a lot of those conversations in the Vow, and please don't get me wrong, the Vow I'm so grateful for, because it really did us a service, whereas a lot of documentaries don't. Are a total disservice to the victims, like Netflix and Bad Vegan with Sarma, which I know you've already covered. The Vow really showed, you know, what was beautiful about it at the beginning, you know, and what. What pulled us in, and we can talk about that. I'm just making a note to circle back, but just to say a lot of those phone calls, they didn't. There was no subtitle underneath about the timeline. I was actually, for some of them, not all of them fully out. Like, I knew I was out, but I. They didn't know I was out, so I was recording them lying to me.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I was like, so what's happening? What. I mean, don't be that real. Yeah. So Keith is not having sex with anybody because I was told he was. So don't get me wrong, I was terrified. Like, my PTSD was through the roof. I was not in a good place, but I was. I was. I wasn't questioning. They think I was questioning, but I was out, and I was getting proof of their lies. So that's not. That's not explicit in the Vow, but doesn't really matter. Like, that's the only thing that. That kind of wasn't explained clearly.

[Julian]

Well, it's. It's got to be scary, though, talking to people that, you know, are in that were doing this thing. That, you know, they were trying to appear as a friend to you when they were the farthest thing from it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

It's the ultimate break of trust.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Huge betrayal. Huge betrayal. And that wound's taken a long time to heal.

[Julian]

Does it ever really heal?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know. I mean, I think it. I think it does. And then a new thing happens, and I'm like, oh, yes, it wasn't healed.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And then I have to revisit and, you know, call my therapist or go for a long walk by the beach or have a hot bath or do the things that I know that I need to do to calm my nervous system, because that's usually what flares up.

[Julian]

Yeah. I'm gonna stick a bookmark in some of that as it relates to your husband as well, because I want to go through, like, how that all happened, and, like, we'll eventually get to where you guys are now, but I would imagine that's, you know, you guys are like, a resource to each other. And it's also very cool, by the way, that you guys seem to have a great marriage and stayed together even through all this stuff, because that's not usually something that you see happen.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Most times, especially if you meet in a cult without the cult framework, it's sort of like, what are we doing here?

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But luckily, we had some value, shared values outside of it. And we also had a kid.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So that. That helped us to. I don't know how much you want to get into that now in the healing process. We could bookmark it.

[Julian]

Yeah. Come back for sure, because there's a lot of ways. I know we can go here, but I want to start with how you initially got pulled in by Mark Vicente, who he was. And obviously, like, he. As you said, he's the guy who ended up pulling you out as well. He has a really pretty amazing character arc that happened here. I. That was covered very well in. In the Vow and everything, and certainly someone I feel for as well. But how did you know Mark in the first place?

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I had seen. So back to my relationship history. I was with the guy that I'd acted with, and I moved back to Vancouver, and then I started dating a guy who was a filmmaker, and. And we're also still in touch. Great guy. It's a through line, he and I. Yeah, he was a filmmaker. I was an actor. You know, kind of classic pairing. And he had made a film that got into a festival that was on a cruise. So it was the. The Spiritual Cinema Circle Festival at Sea this festival no longer exists.

[Julian]

Is that a Carnival cruise?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think it was a Royal Caribbean. I don't remember. Yeah, it was fine. It was. It was my first time on a cruise and my ex, who is David in my book, because he doesn't like his real name to be used, which totally fine, got invited to be like his film got chosen and we were really excited because the. Mark Vicente was the director of what the Bleep. So I had seen what the Bleep. Do we know you're 28?

[Julian]

I'm what?

[Sarah Edmondson]

You're 28. How old are you?

[Julian]

Who told you I'm 28?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know. Sorry. But how old are you?

[Julian]

32.

[Sarah Edmondson]

32. Okay, so you were born. What year were you born?

[Julian]

93.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay, so what the bleep came out in like 2003. So you'd been 10.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So my point is that this was before your time. Yeah, yeah, that was my point. You probably mess. What the Bleep. What the Bleep was like the hugest doc of the time. And it was before you've heard of the Secret?

[Julian]

Yeah, that's like the book. The Secret manifestation thing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Where you like, you know, visualize before the Secret came with the bleep and it.

[Julian]

Oh, it was the same kind of subject matter.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Same kind of subject matter.

[Julian]

Secret has some Nexium vibes to it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh yeah.

[Julian]

Just saying.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, 100%. And a lot of see where this is going. Yeah. A lot of through lines to like other culty characters that I've like interviewed on our podcast. It's all full circle. But what the BLEEP was like quantum physics meets spirituality. It's like there is a physics to how we can manifest things. And like if you're looking at this water and you're projecting love onto it and then you look at the molecules, it looks different. If you're projecting evil onto it and they show the science behind it. And it was all very like woo woo science. But it was at the time groundbreaking and was basically like you can create your own reality. So that movie was amazing for me at the time I was. I had started my spiritual journey. This is before Nexium. So I was reading books like Celestine Prophecy, also before your time. Artist Way. This is not your audience.

[Julian]

The Artist Way.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The Artist Way.

[Julian]

I know that one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Julia Cameron.

[Julian]

Yeah, I feel like we've talked about that before.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right.

[Julian]

Maybe.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's a great book.

[Julian]

Sorry.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's a really good book and I still recommend the book to the. To this Day because It's basically a 12 week program for people to tap into their creativity. And you do things like take yourself on artist dates and you journal in the morning. And it's a great way to like open up your creative. But these books kind of set me up for success with the cult because I was already in this mindset of remember this is early 2000s, so like setting intentions and manifesting and creating the life that I want. And I went to this film festival setting the intention. I'm gonna go find my purpose. This is acting is not necessarily my full purpose. And I was going to meet a bunch of spiritual filmmakers including Mark Vicente from what the bleep.

[Julian]

Oh, that's interesting. So you were already. And you're really young at this point point too. You're not in acting that long. You already felt like it was some sort of a letdown from what your expectations had been, I guess kind of due to some of the stuff we talked about earlier. The difference between theater and. And actually filming TV.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

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[Julian]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

Stuff was filling my cup and so I thought there was more to it. And really what I wanted to do was make films. Like, what the bleep? Like, when I saw that, I was like, this movie shifted consciousness.

[Julian]

Shifted consciousness?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I mean, that's what people were saying.

[Julian]

Yeah. What did you mean by that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, people were. Their consciousness about the. About reality and how they viewed reality themselves in reality was shifting, like shifting consciousness of the world through media. That's what I thought this movie did and that's what. That's what I thought I wanted to do.

[Julian]

Is it because of the way they made it or the message that was within it more? Was it just made beautifully that you're like, holy like that odd.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think it was both. I think it was the message. And listen, both Mark and I will to this day also say, like, neither of us are fully on board with everything that's in the film. But at the time, at the time, it was groundbreaking. And at the time it was like, yes. And, you know, so when I got to the boat, I thought, like, maybe I'd, you know, see him in a panel or, like, you know, I'd cross paths with him. But our very first night at the film festival, they did a science seating and it was like me and my boyfriend and Mark and his girlfriend, and I was like, you know, meant to be. Meant to be. And. And we had an incredible, incredible conversation that night and just like, changed the trajectory of my life from. From Right there before I ask you.

[Julian]

About that conversation, because you. You mentioned there that this was like you were on your spiritual journey, you're trying to figure some things out about the world, find your purpose, stuff like that. Did you have any back. Any type of grown up, real religious background or not even religious background, like some sort of like dogma or. Yeah. Thought about where it all came from.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I. So my dad was. His parents were Anglican and so. And he kind of rebelled. They were like. They were aristocratic. His grandparents were British, Lord and lady, like friends kind of thing. Yeah.

[Julian]

Wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

My. Technically, my dad is a lord and I am honorable. Yes. The honorable Sarah Edmondson is what you can call this.

[Julian]

I'm not gonna call you that, but that's great. Good for you. Thank you. You should call you that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I tried. Well, in nxivm, I got to senior proctor. So it was the honorable Senior Proctor Sarah Juliet Shapiro Edmondson. So it was pretty impressive. Yeah, I don't hold any of those titles anymore.

[Julian]

Sarah Juliet Shapiro Edmondson.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, it's a long name.

[Julian]

Sounds like a law firm.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Especially with the Shapiro. So that's my mother's side.

[Julian]

I have known probably about six lawyers off the top of my head with the last name Shapiro.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't have it. Well, I do have some Shapiro lawyers in my family.

[Julian]

Oh, that's funny.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So Edmondson's my dad's side. Shapiro is my mom's side. And my mom is like, like Reform, non practicing Jewish. Like we celebrate Hanukkah, we celebrated Christmas.

[Julian]

Oh, you got Best of both worlds.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I got best of both worlds. And my parents separated when I was 2, so.

[Julian]

Oh, they did?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So that's another part of my psychology since. Because I know you like to discuss.

[Julian]

Yeah, it's kind of important.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, it's good important. It's good to know that they. And they were. They were civil and now they're really good friends. But my whole life I was like, I just want to get my parents back together. Not. Not now, but like when I was. When I was young, I was like, let's just get my. Like if I had a wish, like if birthday wish or candle or whatever, it was like if I could just have my parents back together. And so I think that comes into play later when I'm gonna get into a cult and like, just wanting family. And I was only child. My dad remarried and ended up having a brother later. So I. I totally have a half brother that's like my brother, but being it. I have all the trappings of an Only child in terms of, like, being alone and wanting a sibling and wanting a best friend and wanting to fit in and.

[Julian]

Yeah, I understand.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Yeah. Are you also an only child? Yeah. Okay, so you get that. And then also as a nerd, were you a nerd?

[Julian]

No.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You don't seem like you were a nerd.

[Julian]

I wasn't. I mean, I did very well in school, but you were cool, smart. No, I. I don't think I was any of the above. I think I was always just a little different than the others, whatever that was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Did it bother you Sometimes, yeah.

[Julian]

Certain errors, it did. Other errors, I think as I got older, by college, I embraced it in a lot of ways, but it's kind of like sometimes you're the loneliest person in a crowded room. You know what I mean?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah. Totally get that.

[Julian]

Yeah. Still that way.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Really? Still?

[Julian]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Good thing I didn't find you 15 years ago. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, scooped you up.

[Julian]

Yeah. I don't. I don't think. I don't think any. As I was telling you off camera, I think everyone is susceptible to cults and things like that, but also, I think in learning, like, it's something I've been fascinated with for a while, such that we look at things that are so obviously now like a cult, like Scientology or Nexium or something like that, but I look at a lot of other things without naming names and go, that's a cult. Yeah, right. Like, I'm very. I keep a very hyper awareness of that because it. Like I said, I. I don't think. I think the right circumstances at the wrong time in your life, you can start to believe something that, you know, 10 years later, you might be like, what the. But at the time, sounds like the smartest thing ever.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Well, it's called. In the cult space, they call it situational vulnerability.

[Julian]

Oh, that's a great. I'm gonna use that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Feel free. Yeah. Because everyone goes through it. Whether it's, you know, crossroads with career or a relationship or being in a new city. You're not a vulnerable. You don't have a weakness as a person. You're just vulnerable because of the situation you're in. Maybe combined with some emotional stuff. Like, I certainly had emotional vulnerabilities too. I just. I hate to use that word because it. It has a negative. Like, oh, you're being vulnerable. Like, you. It's your vulnerability. It's your. Like, it's your wound, you know, which is kind of true, but it's like the wound Combined with the person coming in who wants to take advantage of it. So it's like a two way. Yeah.

[Julian]

How's that negative, though, to talk about that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think it's just a mis. Like a way. The way that it gets used. Oh, like the call. Oh, you're just weak and vulnerable. Like, it's.

[Julian]

Everybody has that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I know that. I just feel like people who. Who. Who use it in a way of like. Well, she was. You know, she had low self esteem. Like it is. If that's the only reason.

[Julian]

It sounds like you've probably. And I don't doubt it, you know, for what you've been involved with. You've been judged so much also publicly.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

That you're. You're very. You have a high bar to recognizing that very quickly. But I'll tell you, like, fuck the people that are doing it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah.

[Julian]

They don't know. And everyone. Everyone's vulnerable, like, in certain ways. And I think when people try to act like they're invulnerable, they're the most vulnerable people in the room. They're usually the most insecure, broken people in the room. No.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yep. And also the people that I think are the most vulnerable are the people who think they aren't vulnerable to it because it's a blind spot and they think that could never happen to me.

[Julian]

Exactly.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And that's where. If I was trying to, you know, take advantage of somebody, I would find those people, because they have their. They don't. They're not even willing to learn what the red flags are because they think they'd spot them.

[Julian]

That's right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's right. And you're right, it is. When you look at something like the Vow or Scientology, it's so obvious, but doesn't look like that at the beginning. It looks really good.

[Julian]

You kind of have to be like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Wait, what? You know, like, literally, it's. It's not. And I've seen it, like I said, with some of the Scientology people, including people who've come in here who weren't in Scientology but have devoted decades, like Tony Ortega or Mark Bunker, to investigating it. They're like, yo, we get how people get into this. They, like, they'll be the first to tell you, like, there are some brilliant people.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Who are brilliant when they get pulled into it. And it's just like that term. What was it? Situation.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Situational vulnerability.

[Julian]

Situational vulnerability. And then it just. Slippery slope just keeps going, and they start to accept things they wouldn't have accepted.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So, yeah.

[Julian]

I Get it? But you were saying a few minutes ago, before we got on that tangent, that you want. Wanted. You had always dreamed of getting your parents back together.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Julian]

Because you never. They separated when you were two, you said.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, two and a half.

[Julian]

So you never knew them together in your life at all.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

So how would you try. Would you, like, try to, like, set up dinner dates for them when you were, like, eight? Like, how would. How would they.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was more of a. It was more of wishing. It was more of, like, fantasizing and. And asking them, you know, and just hoping it wasn't like, you know, parent trap type of situation. It was just a longing, a yearning that I had. I think this came under the. Under. I was talking about feeling. There was a tangent, but I know it'll come back to me. I don't remember what it was.

[Julian]

Well, you were saying you ended up having a half brother and. But you always felt like an only child. How much younger was your brother than you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I was nine when he was born.

[Julian]

Okay, so there's a little gap there. Yeah. But, like, were you closer with one of your parents than the other?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, I probably spent more time with my mom. Like, I think that just the way the, like, division worked and. Yeah, my relationship with my mom and my dad are very. Are very different.

[Julian]

So.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I don't have a. I don't necessarily have a. Like, closer to. I probably talk to my mother more than I talk to my dad. We're a little more enmeshed as the right. The term.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I'm her only child, so it's, you know, we're close for sure.

[Julian]

Did she ever remarry too, or.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, she didn't. No. I would love for her to get remarried. I'm always on the lookout. If you know of any single.

[Julian]

I'll let you know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We have 1 60s or 70s in Canada.

[Julian]

Michio Kaku is not single, is he? I don't think so. Oh, yeah, we'll find out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She's a wonderful woman. She's very warm. Oh, no. We were talking about religion. Oh, I remember the tangent. Yeah. Spirituality. So I think in many ways I loved that. So I was going back and forth. I had two homes. I had Hanukkah and Christmas. People would. When people asked, I said I was half and half. I said I'm half Christian, half Jewish. That's what I thought. I was.

[Julian]

There you go.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But I didn't, like, spend a lot of time. I didn't go to church. I, like, very rarely went to Synagogue. I had a Bat Mitzvah. So technically I was, like, you know, fully Jewish, but I wasn't, like, I didn't keep kosher or anything like that. I think the good side of it is that I was very open to, like, I wasn't like, in a specific dogma, like, this is how to live life. But I think the downside of it is that I was wanting rules on how to live life. In a way, you know, I felt a little bit like, what is. I had a lot of essential existential angst as a teenager. And so when I finally got into Nexium, it was like, here's the rule book.

[Julian]

You felt a little unsupervised.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Were the same on that one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know, yeah. I mean, I was supervised more so. Although I did do acid at a very young age.

[Julian]

Oh, you did?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. But this is, again, the 90s when it was like, I did that.

[Julian]

Is that the Christian side or the Jewish side?

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was the confused side. Yeah, that's a good answer. But I was. I am. And I've always been little. So even when I did anything, like, even drinking and drugs later, I was like, I'll do a quarter of what everybody else is doing. So I never, like, went crazy with it.

[Julian]

You took a bite?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I did, like, a half tab of acid.

[Julian]

Do you remember any of it then?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I do.

[Julian]

Yeah. What was that like?

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was great. I did a lot of mushrooms, too, in high school. That was. That was really fun. And I still do mushrooms. Mushrooms is the thing. I still do the microdosing. Yeah, I did that yesterday in Lovely.

[Julian]

Nice. You take good walk, like, down Fifth Avenue?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, I went on the High Line.

[Julian]

High Line's a great spot. Yes, I'm sure that'd be awesome. Microdosing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Highline. High on the High Line. Hi, Mom.

[Julian]

Yeah, you're getting deep excited.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But that's, like, been a such a big part of my healing. Like, microdosing is really good for me. Really just, like, totally removes my anxiety, and I just feel present, and I'm in the moment. I'm not thinking about, like, all the things that cause me anxiety.

[Julian]

But did you have a lot of anxiety growing up?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

And what do you think initially caused that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think the divorce.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I felt a lot of unease. I think when you think about, like, a toddler, and I've seen my. Now that I have two kids, like, seeing my kids at that age, like, your parents are everything to you. Your parents are just, like, your whole world. And I just Just can imagine the split and being like, so, like, what's. Like, everyone's got different types of trauma. I think that was my initial trauma is having that. That split with my parents and trying to just make everything better again and trying to. I thought if they got back together, then things would be better, but, you know, they're not. They were 26 when they got together. They were so young. Like, that was.

[Julian]

Yeah, but you don't understand any of that. When you're nine or ten, you know, you don't even know what that is. Did you ever. I mean, it sounds crazy, but I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that can look back and relate. Like in their childhood, was there a party that was like, oh, maybe it's my fault that they're not together?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Totally. 100. Yeah.

[Julian]

Hear that all the time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, a lot of the work that I did in Nexium, like a lot was. I know we can get to this, but like we did this process called an em. An exploration of meaning. So you'd bring a stimulus response, like I mentioned earlier. And a lot of those, the memories that were holding the. The meaning or the reaction in place came. So it came from my. Came from my childhood and thinking like, you know, if I had been different or. Yeah, you just like at that age, you think that you're the cause because you're kind of. That's your little world and.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, if I could just be different or better. I think it made me. It made me into a good girl. Like, I was very much other than the acid, but like, I was a straight A student. I was. I was like, I was a. You know, I followed the rules.

[Julian]

So you get on this cruise with Martin, end up sitting next to Mark, who makes this movie that. This documentary that blows your mind. And he's already in Nexium at that time, right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, he'd already taken a 16 day training and he. So he wasn't a coach yet or anything.

[Julian]

What does that mean? 16 day training.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So the. So keep in mind, this was like executive success programs. We weren't even using the term Nexium at that time. That came later. But we is. That's the next thing is the umbrella. So I took. He took executive success programs, ESP, we'll call it. There's a five day training and there's. That's the first five days of a 16 day training. And the idea was that was level one, similar to the bridge in Scientology. Right.

[Julian]

Makes sense.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. If people could do the five day or they could do the 16 day. Most people started with a five day and then finished the last 11. That's what I did, a five day and then I did the last 11 later.

[Julian]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So he had just done the 16 day, which is the foundation for the rest of the curriculum. And he thought it was great. He met me and David and was like, well, if you liked my film, you, you probably like this thing I just did. And we spent seven days together with him and his girlfriend and his.

[Julian]

On the cruise.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On the cruise. And I don't know if you. Have you ever done a cruise?

[Julian]

I was on a cruise that caught on fire one time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh Jesus.

[Julian]

Yeah, yeah, I've done a couple cruises. My grandparents. Interesting times.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So you know that you like, you, you are at sea and then you dock and you explore some land and you go back to sea. Right? So yes, when we were at sea we were watching films and doing film festival things in the big screening room. And then when we were in land, we were exploring like we were going to the Bahamas and I think Saint Barts, you know, which was exotic place. Exotic. It was exotic. The water was beautiful. We were, you know, with 300 like minded filmmakers and it was, it was like the time of my life. I was like, this is, is, this is peak living.

[Julian]

Yeah, you really can get close to people on those things. I mean that seriously.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, you are very close.

[Julian]

Especially when you're in these exotic places or going somewhere cool. And if you're on it for a week or two weeks or I was on one for three weeks one time, like it becomes your world a little bit.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've. I felt there was another couple that were also there who I'm still in touch with. They live in England and so the six of us were kind of a little gang and we didn't really talk. Like we were just like a little family and, and we were talking about big things and even. Tell me that much about it. It was like I knew there was a guy named Keith and he was a smart man and he was a chess player and piano player and really smart and using his brain to create this humanitarian club is how it was pitched. I know it sounds funny now it's funny now. It's funny. It's also funny that we were told he was celibate, cuz.

[Julian]

Oh, you were told he was celibate? Oh yeah. Get the out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, we were told he was a celibate. Renunciate, you know, renunciate us no, there's somebody who's, like, so self, like, evolved. They don't need material items like he did. That's why he didn't have a car. He was a renunciate. He's a celibate. Renunciate, like a monk. A monk is a renunciation.

[Julian]

If someone has to sell themselves as a celibate, they're more than anybody.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, I know.

[Julian]

Right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, now we know.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, there's certain things I look back at and I'm like, no, don't believe that. No, that. That actually came into play around the time that we joined because they're. They. They hadn't had that as part of the image. They. They would sort of like more. It was more. I've learned this later, that he was more open about his polyamorous lifestyle.

[Julian]

Yeah. To say the least.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And then when. When people like myself and Mark came in, they were like, we need to change this. And they. They, like, purposely lied because they didn't think that we'd be able to, like, understand why that would be ethical, you know, so they decided to not disclose that to us. It was a whole strategy. Yeah, totally. Yeah. He's a celebrate. He doesn't need sex. So, you know.

[Julian]

But Mark, I mean, obviously you respected him as a filmmaker, and, you know, you had these. You kind of saw things you were looking for through the art he made and everything. But would you say it was a pretty magnetic guy, too? Like, you were. You were drawn to him necessarily romantically.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. No, no. I mean, I definitely, like, looked up to him and, you know, he put him on a bit of a pedestal and he. If anything, like, we actually joked about it later in Nexium, he was a little bit. Even though we connected and obviously, like, I followed his lead, he was also a little bit standoffish and that kind of Hollywood filmmaker kind of, to a cool way. And that was one of the things that Nexium did with him, is made him more warm and more approachable. So even though he was, you know, I was drawn to him and his girlfriend. I was like, you know, we're best buds now, like, BFFs forever. I was also like, you know, the power differential was still there. Like, he was the filmmaker and I'm an actress, and, you know, I don't know. It was a bit of both. Does that make sense? It wasn't, like, super clear as to, like, we're on the same playing field, I guess.

[Julian]

Yeah, there's. There's some. Listen, I was never in it But I've talked to enough people. There's some interesting dynamics.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

That have always been in play in that. In that industry, in particularly in the whole pecking order and stuff. And we see it where it goes, like, really dark, you know, with, like, the Harvey Weinstein stuff. But just in general, on a day to day, it's like. Like, I'm me, you're you, you're you. You know what I mean?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, the film industry is. I mean, in some ways, it kind of has to be. I don't know if you could have a. A set where, like, everyone's the same. Like, there has to be somebody calling the shots. But, like, if someone's an right, it's gonna affect everything and. And that trickles down and whatnot. But there has to be, like, you know, there has to be a president, there has to be an ad, there has to be a director. There has to be someone.

[Julian]

That's life.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We. Yeah, it is life. And.

[Julian]

But the way you treat people doesn't have to be reflective of you needing to be above them.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Exactly.

[Julian]

I mean, like, this will remain nameless, obviously, but I was talking with a friend of mine who, let's just say, is, like, directly connected in that industry. And, you know, you're asking the questions like, all right, who's great? Who sucks? That kind of thing. And again, without naming names, it was so fascinating to hear people who were, you know, these mega stars or whatever that are effectively, like, on the same levels and how opposite some of them are like. And they all present kind of the same thing publicly. You wouldn't really be able to know, but you're like, this person's amazing. Here's why. Here's how they treat people. Here's what they do. This person sucks. Here's why. Here's. And then you hear some of the stories. You're like, that's not real. And they're like, 100%. They do that. And you're like, come on, man. But I guess, I don't know, maybe some people get so big that. And, you know, their life is on camera. I'm talking about actors in particularly that they start to think they're like that thing. Which also sounds like someone else I'm thinking of right now, but you know what I mean. Yes, it's similar.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's similar. And also, like, you never really know what's going on in people's lives. Like, one of the very first experiences I had on set around that time when I first started acting in the late 90s, is I was Rose McGowan's body double.

[Julian]

Oh, wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So we're the same height and weight.

[Julian]

Can you pull up Rose McGowan real fast?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I could see, like, we're the same height. Her. She's more well endowed than I am, but we are the same height and weight. And so I was her body double and I was her stand. And that's her now, but like, look at her back then.

[Julian]

Yeah, yeah. The fifth one right there. Deep sear with. With the hair. Fifth and. And seventh. Let's see that one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

And then go two over. Perfect. Yeah, I can see why. Same kind of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Julian]

Cut out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And she was lovely. And it was a film that she was in with Alan Alda. And the highlight of my career is that one scene she wasn't ready. And I got to read lines off camera with Alan Alda, which was. Was amazing.

[Julian]

That's pretty cool.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. But she on set, I just will never forget this is. Is that she had the reputation of being a bit of a diva. Like we were, you know, shooting far away in the suburbs, and she wanted a particular kind of latte and someone had to get the particular latte. And everyone's like, oh, my God, that's such a diva. And I remember her being like, a little like, she was great with me, really taught me so much, like, really took me under her wing. It was so kind. But she had this, you know, reputation on set. And then I found out years later after reading her book, which is amazing, by the way. And she was one of the first just me too ers against Harvey Weinstein, right?

[Julian]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And her depiction of how that happened is horrific. And I have so much respect for her, but when I did the math, I was like, oh, that must have happened just before I met her.

[Julian]

Wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, and so that, you know, she was raped by Harvey Weinstein in a hotel room when she's going out for a meeting that her agent set up in the. It's just. I mean, that's a whole other tangent. But my point is you never know what's going on for people for sure.

[Julian]

Quick question on that, though.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Do you not see some patterns in that, too?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah, no. 100%.

[Julian]

It's very. We don't put it in the same category as, like, the actual literal cults and stuff we see. But how's he that much different?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, he's not. And this is where I like our podcast. A little bit culty when we've talked about stuff like this all the time, because it's the same power dynamic 100. And he. I mean, we. Like, the cult of Hollywood is a whole other separate story, like how these people have power and all these enablers in our space. They call them flying monkeys.

[Julian]

Flying monkeys.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, from the wizard of Oz.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So the witch has the flying monkeys to do the dirty work. So the narcissist in the power position doesn't always do all the things to set it up, so they just sort of receive the benefit.

[Julian]

Sure.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So Weinstein also had, like. He had, you know, assistance bringing Rose down from the downstairs table where she's been waiting patiently to have lunch. Oh, he's just finishing a meeting. Why don't you come up to the foyer? She's with somebody. She's not like. Like, I'm gonna go to the hotel room and get a job. She's, like, being led by an assistant.

[Julian]

Who knows what's gonna happen.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Who knows what's gonna happen.

[Julian]

Very Epstein. Like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah. And I know you're. You probably know so much about that now. I saw your list of titles. I was like, could we just talk about Epstein and aliens?

[Julian]

Yeah, no, listen, we've done. We've done probably five, six episodes before on Epstein. And you know, that. That is a case I've looked at since basically, like, the inception of it really blowing up. And it. It's one that you never get any less sick or desensitized to it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

Studying that one, I'm sure. It just gets worse.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It gets worse. And so Gillian Maxwell would also be an example of a flying monkey, but also, you know, a co conspirator and an enabler and all the things. In a legal sense and actual physical sense, so. And Keith had those, too. Keith had a few Gillins around him.

[Julian]

Well, let me ask you. Not specifically about the Keith ones. Let's look at. Let's stay with this other example for a minute because I'd love to know now, you being outside it, what your example was, because as. As you. I think we said this off camera, so I want to say this on camera, too. You worked on the business side of Nexium, and when they tried to pull you deep into the other side of it, that's when you went, no. Holy. So one of the things that happened when you and some other people bravely went and whistleblow this whole thing is you were falsely titled in various publications is like, oh, an ex recruiter for sex, whatever, you know, comes clean about Nexium when in reality you never did that. But what I want to ask you about is not even getting to the Nexium ones who did. But like stay with Epstein for a second. Knocky Len, some of the girls that he got to when they were 16, 17, who he abused and then who informing that relationship of abuse kept on who then later, you know, in their young twenties went and recruited girls for him. How do you, what do you make of that and how do you view that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's so complicated. Yes, I, for especially 16 year olds who don't know much else. Like I joined when I was 26, turning 27, so I feel like I had a little bit more, more, a little bit more life experience and I think that's ultimately what kept me out of the, you know, Keith's clutches. I kept him at bay in a way that I think like I wasn't looking for a father figure in the same way that some of the other women were and that we can go into that as well. So I think when you, when you join something like that at 16, you don't necessarily know how wrong that is. Like it's just what becomes normal. So I, I don't think it's. Obviously I don't think it's right and you know, people need to be held accountable. But I totally have, I don't have the word for it. I, I understand how it happens.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And I'm, I actually spoke to one of those women when I first got out and I don't even know her name to keep. I can't because this is seven years ago. But one of those women reached out to me and was, and trying to figure out how to like, what should she, should she do now? Like, should she bust through it like I did and like just come out with it and, and like write a book and you know, and bust through the shame or should she like go into hiding because she wasn't sure and actually I've lost touch with her. I don't know what she decided to do. I think she went the other way and decided just to like rebuild her life and, and not expose it because she was so ashamed. So ashamed. And I, I think that's what keeps people quiet is that if they do wake up from something like this like I did then and, and the, and there was sex involved and they did bad things. Like why would you want to even talk about it?

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I, I have a lot of empathy. I guess that's the word. I have empathy for that journey and like nobody wanted, look, I didn't want this, I didn't sign up for this and Sign up for Keith's initials on my body. They didn't sign up to be, you know, pimps for Jeffrey Epstein. They signed up for security and safety and, and, and whatever it was they thought they were getting at the beginning. And that's the thing. It's always bait and switch. Right. There's always like, I'm going to dangle this carrot, you know, for some of the actors that join next time. Here's your. Or even Rose. Here's, here's your career.

[Julian]

That's right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I'm going to give you your career and you're going to everything you want. But it also comes with this. But that it comes later.

[Julian]

I think it also becomes a thing. I mean it's easy to, to also like on a personal level just make fun of the shit out of like a Harvey Weinstein because he's such an ugly guy. And then we got all the other graphic details. We never want no. From court and all that. But like the fact of the matter was he was very powerful dude in filmmaking. Was responsible for financing a lot of great movies.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Julian]

You know, and, and was someone who had built an enormous career. And what's so clear is that a huge part of it is he got off on that and like he wanted, he loved using that bully pulpit to I, I don't know if it's like so deep rooted psychologically, like get back at the girls that made fun of him when he was in sixth grade and was ugly. I don't know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Know.

[Julian]

I don't know. But like one can assume whatever it is, you know, he acted upon that in, in the worst of ways and then made people, no matter how successful they were or talented, they were like a Rose McGowan or you've heard plenty of the other names as well who went on to have amazing careers. Like he made them feel like no matter how big they got, they were still so far beneath him that you can never say anything. I mean even that story, what was it? Brad Pitt was on to this because he was dating Gwyneth Paltrow. Oh yeah. And he years ago told Harvey he'd beat the out of him or something like that. And then. But here's the thing, I don't know. That was many years ago, right? Thief. Brad Pitt's later in one of my favorite movies of all time, inglourious Basterds in 2009, which is financed by Harvey Weinstein, which shows you like, all right, what's the, yeah, what's the dissonance there?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Honestly, like is even Though I'm saying this as I want to maybe act again, so maybe I shouldn't say it, but, like, I just find Hollywood just gross. I find it just so disgusting. And the fact that Harvey Weinstein was doing this for so many years and people knew and turned the other cheek because everyone wants to work. But, like, what do you. What are we working towards? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I. Ironically, I never did the LA thing. I probably would have had I not joined Nexium. That kind of like derailed me from it.

[Julian]

But like, God, you might have been better off maybe.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Julian]

Which is crazy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Honestly. Like, there were times when. When I actually went down in 97 with my girlfriend Victoria, and we like literally handed off our resumes at Miramax. Like, we like, dropped it on the counter, thinking that was gonna be like our big thing. Went to Sky Bar. Some guy invites us up to his hotel room because he's doing a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio. And like, they need an actor for the waitress. And I was smart enough to go, no, that's, that's not true. Right. Like, but I would. I also knew that if, like, Leonardo DiCaprio was there and, you know, I don't know what I'd be able. Like, I knew that I wasn't strong enough in myself to navigate Hollywood, so I avoided it. And that was the age of 19. So I, @ least I had some self.

[Julian]

Awareness. I had some self awareness of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. That I was like, you know, I didn't want to do that. So, yeah, I joined a cult.

[Julian]

Instead. Yeah. I think also with. That was good. I was like, you just tossed that one in there. I think also though, like, you're saying it's like Hollywood. No. No matter how big they get, Literally, maybe. Unless you're Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah. Like, they all have to try out for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Roles.

[Julian]

Yeah. Right. So you have to get selected by a group of people. It's not like what the Internet era has become, which is just like. Like, guy like me can be in his parents house and like, if enough people click it, we're in business. Right. They still to this day have to go through middlemen and checks and balances. So a part of, you know, maybe the quote unquote code of silence in there and the underbelly that is the negative part of it literally forms out of people, as you said, trying to just protect their career. But it's like, for what? For.

[Sarah Edmondson]

What? Yeah, like, what are we doing this.

[Julian]

For?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Have you Watched the studio with Seth.

[Julian]

Rogen. I haven't. I heard good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Things. It's great. It's really.

[Julian]

Good. Does it kind of show.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This? Yeah, just. Well, all of it. And it just also makes me, like. It's so good that it's old, but it's also very anxiety inducing because it's just so stressful. Like, just the whole world is. Is. The world of Hollywood is just so even. Just like, how one gets a job is so random, you know, like, oh, you look a little bit like my ex wife, therefore, you're not gonna get the job. So, you know, why do you. How do you get work? Which is actually one of the reasons why I love Nexium so much, is because the acting was so nebulous. There was no path to success that was specific. Like, oh, I do this workshop, and then I sleep on this casting couch, and then I'm gonna get the job. Or vice versa, which, by the way, I've never done, but I know people who've done that. You know, the stripe path and Nexium, the martial arts system of ranking, which we haven't talked about. And we can. Was like, oh, if I do this and then this and then this, I can get this, and then I'm.

[Julian]

Growing. It's a clear. You have an outline, you have a goal set. You have a. You have steps that you see you can take. Whereas in Hollywood, it's thrown darts at the board. Yeah, monkey. It's like, yeah, let's see where it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Lands. I understand that. So can we pause actually right there? Because I have to use the.

[Julian]

Bathroom. Of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Course. Very.

[Julian]

Badly. We'll be right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Back.

[Julian]

Okay. All right, everybody, we are back. So we were just talking about the. How there were clear goals, like, laid out in the program for. For Nexium. And so you'd also mention you're spending this whole week on the cruise with Mark Vicente. He's like, kind of telling you how he just did these 16 days, which is like the initial training or whatever with. With Nexium. And obviously, like, you're drawn to him through his filmmaking success. So you're like, oh, maybe this is interesting for me too. So how soon after that cruise did you, like, act on that and go to, I guess, like Albany and do this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thing? So ironically, there was a school at the time in Tacoma, Washington, which is not far from Vancouver, and some of those. Yeah. And there. Some of those people had planned to come up to Vancouver and do the first Canadian intensive. And that was like, I want to say, a month or Two, like very soon after the cruise. So Mark told me about it and I think that that had this other woman whose name Suzanne wasn't also on the cruise. She was there to recruit and she's the one who like got me to fill out the paperwork. She was like, as soon as I said, oh, yeah, I want to do that, she was like chasing me around the cruise, getting me to get the 48 hour discount, which by the way was my first red flag that.

[Julian]

I didn't understand when I was like, 48 hour.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Discount? Yeah, there was a 48. So it was like, Billy May's here for Nexium. Buy now and you can get. Yeah, was 26. It was like $2,700. But if you sign up now, it was like 21 and 2700.

[Julian]

Dollars. And like, oh, that's like, it's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

A lot of money today. It was a lot of.

[Julian]

Money. Fuck.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. I know. I don't know what I was thinking. And then my rent at the time was 400.

[Julian]

So. Oh, come.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On. Totally could not afford.

[Julian]

It. Yeah. Where'd you get the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Money? My credit card. Oh.

[Julian]

Yeah. Magic.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Plastic. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. So I actually put down the 500 deposit to secure the 48 hour discount, which again, this is my first. But people say like, what was your first red flag? It was like right then when they were pressuring me and it wasn't even Mark, it was Suzanne to get the discount. And I should have been like, well, if it's so great, it'll be there when I'm ready and when I can afford.

[Julian]

It. Who was Suzanne again? Was that his.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Girlfriend? No, Suzanne was. Just happened to be this other person from NXIVM who was specifically on the boat to recruit. And so she signed me up. That later became. I've never talked about this publicly. I don't think a thing because she's the one who got me to sign up. But I would. I signed up really because I Mark and later. I didn't know this at the time, but it's like with MLMs, there's like, who do you bring in? Suzanne tried to claim me as her own. And I was like, no, I don't. I don't even like you. I'm here because of Mark. And so they. I'm team Mark. They had to move me in the lineage and it was a whole.

[Julian]

Thing. Oh.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wow. Yeah. And I later had similar situations.

[Julian]

Where I was like, another red flag, by the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Way. A huge red flag. Like I belong to somebody, you know, like, I'm you're my.

[Julian]

Sponsor. Well, that's where they start. Yeah. You see where that ends.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Up?

[Julian]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah. Master.

[Julian]

Slave. Makes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sense. Little clues, Little clues. So Suzanne got me to sign up and then I put my deposit down and actually very soon afterwards. Well, first of all, I was excited at first to like do this training. And then I got home and the, you know, the euphoria of the crew sort of wore off and I was like, wait, I'm spending how much on a training that I, you know, I can't afford this. And I called what turned out to be like the person above Mark, who is his field trainer, which is basically the person in charge of sales. And I was like, I can't, I can't do this. Like, I'm waiting, you know, I've got to be available for my agent to call. And I'm like an actor and you know, all these. And she gave me, she basically gaslit me, which I didn't know at the time. And also double bound me, which basically she said, yeah, I'll explain that. She's like, wait, you're how old and you don't have the money? I'm like, I'm about to turn 27. She's like, and you. And you can't afford to spend a few thousand dollars on your success and your growth. Like, when's that going to change, you.

[Julian]

Know? You know, that's kind of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Genius. Yeah, yeah. And it's true. Like, I was like, yeah, I want to change that. I want to, I want to make more money. Like, well, this is pay double. Yeah, priceless and other things. Like, you know, with the agent thing, she's like, here. So you're just going to be the wait for your agent to call or when do you want to be the master of your own ship? But that was the exact word. She is master of your own ship. And I was like, I want to be the master of my own ship. So I mean, so I ended up going. And that's like. So I, I tried to get out of it also. It was non refundable deposit. And that's where sun cost fallacy starts to play.

[Julian]

In. Like, I paid money after.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Bed. Yeah. I'm like, it's a. Put my money down, I might as well try it. And then the, the first training was a few weeks later. It's only nine of us. It was my, my boyfriend, myself and seven other people. And. Yeah. How much? I don't know how much you want to know.

[Julian]

About. Yeah, what happens at the training? What's it like, where you said it was out locally by.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Year. It was in a Holiday Inn in a suburb of. Called Burnaby near Vancouver. Like the most unimpressive Holiday Inn you've ever.

[Julian]

Seen. Is this back when they were having the commercials. Like, I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Night. I don't remember, but possibly. But I remember walking in and there was like a really cheap sort of continental breakfast from the equivalent of like a Panera. Like Panera sandwiches and, like, some eggs. And I'm just like, where am I? And the. And the facilitators are wearing terrible, like, power suits. And I was just like, I'm not in. Like, I. I actually didn't. I. I was imagining like an arena, like a Tony Robbins, like, like a hundred thousand people. I. I don't know. What I was picturing was not picturing nine people in a small training room of the Holiday Inn. It was very underwhelming and humble beginnings. Humble beginnings, yeah. But the coaches were nice, and. And, you know, Mark had said, like, it's gonna be weird. It's gonna be weird at first. Like, ride it out. Trust me. Just wait till day three. And then, like, it's gonna be fine. And there was so many red flags. Red.

[Julian]

Flags. Besides the continental breakfast and Holiday.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Inn, my favorite. I didn't make this up, but I saw a meme once. I said, I saw the red flags. I just thought I was going to a carnival. Have you heard that before? So, like, these are the case. So these are the things I saw. They. And this is quite brilliant. I think that Keith knew. I think Keith knew. I don't know what specifically he studied. Every time I interview somebody now on our podcast about other cults, I'm like, oh, for sure. He studied that. Like, you know, Scientology and various yoga disciplines and, you know, religion in. In general and. And like the Mormon Church and like all these different things that we've studied since. It's like, oh, Keith took that from that and that from that. And one of the things he was very good at was just normalizing weird shit. And that's from the beginning. Nancy, who you've seen from the vow in her power suit and her terrible eyebrows and her perm and the.

[Julian]

Video. Yeah, she. She was given red.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Flags. I know she was giving red.

[Julian]

Flags. She just seemed like a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sorry. I mean, a little bit. You said it, not me. And. And I still. But I still have. Because, like, there was a time in the middle there where I called her, like, my bonus mom. You know, like, we got close and then now, like, so I felt that way at the beginning, and then we got close and I had her on a pedestal. And now, like, she never even, like, called me when I left. You know what I mean? So, like, I have a lot of feelings towards her, and we can. Yeah, we can get into that. But my first instinct was like, who's this woman? And she wasn't even there. It was her on a video. Right? So, yeah, because. So it's her in a video being like, hi, I'm Nancy Salzman. Welcome.

[Julian]

To. I know you're taking me there. Don't do.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. Right. And I've seen that video so many times since, so I know it so well. And her whole thing is like, you know, we're here to grow. And wouldn't you agree that all successful people know their areas of.

[Julian]

Limitations? She is like, when you watch her speak, like, not even on the video ones, but when you would just see her speaking, like in the videos on. On. On the Vow, where it's just all you guys, like, in the room and she's just talking with you. She's like a. Like a kind of bad actress in a dystopian movie. Like, where they're like, we're here to take care of you today. You're gonna enjoy this. Like, she literally talked like that. That was one of mine. Where I'm.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like. And if anyone ever said, like, I find Nancy to be too expressive and it weirds me out, which people said, including Mark in his first five day, they would say, well, it's because you have issues with expression. Because she's so expressive that anyone who doesn't like her level expression aren't good at expressing themselves. So, like, it's like your own projected laugh. Lack of expression comes to the surface when you see Nancy expressing. It's always. It always go back to you if you're like, I don't like this. This feels inauthentic. That's because you don't express authentically, Julian. So it was always, you know. So anyway, I'm watching Nancy. She's saying, all successful people know their limitations. Can we agree? Yeah, we.

[Julian]

Agree. Oh, she's saying that on the video to no one listening in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Particular. Yes, you.

[Julian]

Have. Can we agree. Wait five.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Seconds. Yes. Yes, we all agree. All successful people know their limitations. We're here to grow. You paid good money. Wouldn't you agree that when you hit up against limitations. Uncomfortable. Yes. So you're setting people up to say, if I'm feeling uncomfortable, it's because I'm hitting Up against the limitation, not because this is weird. I want to get the out. So they're setting up that you are going to go through, go through this class and feel uncomfortable. And, and the facilitators all back this up and I was trained to do it later you're going to have the urge to leave. You're going to have the urge to eat, to smoke, to flirt. All the things we do when we're uncomfortable. I don't know if you've ever done any therapy, but this is true. When you're in therapy, it really hurts and it's uncomfortable and it's vulnerable. So mixing truth, right. Mixing true things like therapy and self reflection is uncomfortable with the fact that we're now seeing things that are problematic. But I now I can't say, oh, this is uncomfortable. And because it's my internal system saying I should leave, I'm already agreeing that if I see something that's uncomfortable is because there's something for me to look at. For example, first red flag. The.

[Julian]

Sashes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Martial arts. My kids are in jiu jitsu, They've done taekwondo. Like there's a series. There's a reason why there's a. You start as a white and you work your way up to a yellow and then you go to orange and then you green. There's like a whole system that's really wonderful. If Nexium was what it was supposed to be, it would have been great. A martial arts system of personal.

[Julian]

Growth. Like this ash just for people out there, like around.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Here. It was. Yeah, it was like this 2 inch thick, like went all the way down your waist. Yellow, I mean starts white, yellow, orange sash. And you'd have to do certain things to get to the next level. So I had to.

[Julian]

Work. You thought it was like weird.

[Sarah Edmondson]

At the beginning, but you're like, whatever. Yeah. I'm like, okay. And then they'd say like if you feel weird about wearing about like wearing a piece of fabric around your neck, then probably means that you have some issues either with authority or measurement or ranking and there something to look at and which is. Was kind of true. Like I already told you about my measurement stuff. And also what I didn't mention is that like I was the kind of girl who like just wanted to be good at everything. And if swim classes, you know, you start at silver and then you go to maroon or whatever the. I don't remember what they were. I was never good at that. So I'm like, oh, this is true. I'm not. I'M I quit when things get hard. And so this is the reason I don't. I don't want to wear a white sash. I want to wear the green sash. I want to be the best, actually. So I was already, like, uncomfortable, but also kind of hooked in all.

[Julian]

Of their messaging, whether it be the sashes or the prepping you for when you get uncomfortable, you're going to be tempted to do X, Y and Z. It's basically taking logical thoughts that they know you're going to have turn. Like catching it before it's even thrown, turning it back on you and saying, yo. That's actually your problem that you're thinking, making you uncomfortable with having a normal thought to make that thought seem completely unnormal or that idea seem not.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Normal. Yeah, exactly. And so, so up and, you know, brilliant in the sociopathic.

[Julian]

Way. Yes. Or like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Textbook. So textbook. And we're going to call this guy Keith Re, who created this, who's not in the room. We're, by the way, we're going to thank him before every class. Thank you. Vanguard. Wait, we're calling him Vanguard? Oh, it just means leader of a philosophical movement. It's not a big deal. Yeah, Vanguard. Okay. Found out that he came up with that from a video game years later, by the way. Didn't know that at the time. Yeah. So I. Before I could even. Because we were encouraged to express our concerns, but before I could even raise my hand. But I feel comfortable with this. Somebody else does. And it's like. And we've already learned the term suppressive, which is like, if you have a negative thought about somebody's success, for example, that's suppressive. Like, I want to lower you like, we're pot. Let's say we're podcasters and I feel jealous of your podcasting success and I want you to fail. That's a suppressive thought. I don't feel that way, by the way. I want you to succeed, which is humanitarian and tribute to you. And that's a positive thing. But if I had any negative feelings towards you, that'd be.

[Julian]

Suppressive. But they're calling normal feelings that aren't like, suppressive. Suppressive. So that you don't to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Have.

[Julian]

Have. So you feel bad about them and don't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Have. Yeah. So I'm about to say I don't feel comfortable calling this guy. I've never met Vanguard and paying tribute to him. I've never even met him. Somebody else says it first and like, well, you may have some suppressive tendencies. I'm Like, I better not say that. So I'm just. I'm a good girl. I want to get the gold star. I want to go up the path, you know, I mean, not at the beginning. The first. First few days, I was like, this is so weird. Also, my parents are therapists, so, like, I've already. I had a bit of a know it all thing. Like, I already know all this. This. This is really for my boyfriend who needs to work on himself. I had a little bit of that going on, but at the same time, I wanted to do this curriculum so I could work with Mark. I had a lot of things going on at the same time, but my first. My first day was very, very uncomfortable. And that's actually when I went home and Googled and saw some stuff. It wasn't nearly, of course, at what it is now, but there was like, a Forbes article about Nexium.

[Julian]

Being. Oh, that was like the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Initial. That was the initial bad.

[Julian]

One. Like, oh, three or.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Something. But the accusations about what they were doing wasn't very clear. It's like they wear sashes and they go for long walks in the neighborhood at night. And it wasn't like, you know, sex trafficking and coercion and like, all the things we know now. It was. People just thought it was weird, right? So that. So that was something that. Like when I called Mark after day one, like, what the fuck did you get me into? And he was like, well, you know, we're. We're doing these things in the world, and people are gonna push back. What's so.

[Julian]

Funny? It's all a part of. To the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Plan. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. It's very joker.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Vibes. Totally 100%. And I'm just like. And he's like, just wait till day three. You can't get your money back. Wait till day three. He's like.

[Julian]

I. You can't get your money back. There it is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Again. Money back. And one of the things he did with me that I later learned to do, and this is in all sales, it's called Feel Felt Found. Do you know.

[Julian]

This? Feel Felt.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Found? Yeah. Like, give me a limitation as to why you can't take this program. Like, pretend I'm trying to recruit you. Tell me one thing. You can't. What would stop you if I invited you to do Nexium? What would you say? You can't. Why wouldn't you do.

[Julian]

It? Sounds a little.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Retarded. Okay. I know how you feel, Julian. I felt the same way when I heard about nxivm. I thought it was so and so dumb. We're gonna get in shit for using that word. But it's okay. I mean, this is the appropriate use of that word in this context. Okay, I know how you feel. I felt the same way. But what I found was when I took the curriculum, when I took market, when I took the curriculum, it was like, even though it looked retarded on the inside, was actually really helpful in my life. That's feel, felt.

[Julian]

Found.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Yeah. So I'm trying to give an example. That'd be more.

[Julian]

Helpful. No, I see. That's, that's enough. Like, you get it based psychological. Yeah, like I get you saying, listen, I don't accept what you just said, but I accept what you just said. Here's why I think it's wrong. Respect.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Respectfully.

[Julian]

Bingo.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Yeah. If I said, like, I don't want to get into YouTube because it's too expensive, you say, I get it. I felt that way too. But what I found.

[Julian]

Was. It.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Is. But you know, you're right. Keep that thought. So any. Anything. I forgot that. What were we talking.

[Julian]

About? Feel, felt.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Found. Feel felt found. Oh, yeah. So he, he feel founded me and he's like, yeah, like, I got, I felt that way too. It was so weird. And by day three, I think that you're gonna have some big chefs and you'll enjoy it. And he was right. Right. By day three, what happened? I mean, imagine doing. So this is a bit personal, but have you ever done any therapy or any like. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So you know, you usually do like an hour of therapy. I was basically doing 10 hours of therapy for, by, for five days. So by day three, 30 hours in, I was unraveling stuff that I, I wanted to work on. I was there for very specific goals. I got some clarity on, you know, things I was struggling with and specifically my self esteem, my relationship to money, my relationship to my boyfriend at the.

[Julian]

Time. How'd you get clarity on those.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Things? So the way that the five day is set up is like a group setting. So there's usually four or five people in a group. Remember, there's only nine people in this group. So it's like two groups or, or.

[Julian]

Three. It's intimate.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Though. It's very.

[Julian]

Intimate.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And there'd be a coach leading a discussion, and you'd be talking about concepts like the first class. I used to have this whole thing memorized, but I've had to kind of block it out. But honesty and disclosure, and what is honesty and what is integrity? And you're basically Redefining keywords. Like we all use good, bad value, self esteem. And in those discussions, the idea was that you. This is what we thought we were doing. You, you'd be like looking at your foundational belief system about certain topics. And in those discussions you'd have the awareness of like what was inconsistent. For example, money. Like a lot of people have money issues. Like, and usually it's because one parent teaches is, you know, you have to be have money to be successful. Maybe another parent teaches money is the root of all evil. Right. That is what would cause in next same terms, a disintegration in your belief.

[Julian]

System. That's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Interesting. And this is kind of, you know, this could be solved with therapy, basic cognitive behavioral therapy or you know, talk therapy or somatic different modalities that exist, like legit therapies, but they're role.

[Julian]

Playing it within their whole thing to make you feel like you're finding something and maybe, maybe you actually.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Are. I think, I think I was. And what I've since learned is that this is not something that Keith created he specific. He stole from legitimate modalities and packaged it in such a way that I'm going through really, really fast therapy and having huge awarenesses and ahas about my life and how I communicate and how I feel about myself and why I, you know, for example, and acting why I had suppressive thoughts about people were more successful than me. Like that's something if that was true, needed to be like evolved because that's not good for me to feel that way. You want to be happy for people. Right.

[Julian]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So. And just a lot of things about just my life in general. I was a lot of anxiety. Like I said. I was addicted to sleeping pills. I forgot to mention.

[Julian]

That. Oh, you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Were? Yeah, I couldn't already. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. What kind of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Pills? Those little blue ones. I steal them from my mother. Zopiclone. I think they're called topic Zopiclone. I don't know what they're called them. Are they blue and oval.

[Julian]

Shaped? I mean, I don't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Know. I never took.

[Julian]

One. But Zappa Clone zone, Clonapin's in that family or did I make that up?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Steve. They sound.

[Julian]

Similar. I dated a girl who's into.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Clonapin.

[Julian]

What? What was that? Sorry. Are more like a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Xanax. Yeah. These just help me, help me sleep though. Yeah. I never had a prescription. I just like took them from my.

[Julian]

Mother. But that sounds.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Healthy. Yeah, it was great. So that was one of the first things that.

[Julian]

I. That would be an easy thing to not gaslight you on, by the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Way.

[Julian]

Way. Oh yeah, because it's like, oh my God, Sarah, you're, you're abusing drugs that aren't yours. And they're not lying. They're very true. It's, it's, it's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Real. And then it was the thing that I used as my testimony because all good cults have some testimonials in the aftermath. Because now after my five day and I've worked through a bunch of stuff, I'm sleeping better because I'm not anxious all the time. So now I'm like, I'm Sarah Edmondson and I'm an actress. And I got off sleeping pills thanks to this program. And that's, I mean, cut to 12 years later. I became the poster child for NXIVM because I went from like living in a basement suite to owning my own condo in Olympic Village, which is like this beautiful part of Vancouver that like, you know, I was living the dream. And, and I be. And I'm, I'm jumping like many years and we can talk about everything in between. But like, that's, that's how it worked. Somebody like me would have a big shift and they'd propel me to like, like grow and then they'd use me as bait for other.

[Julian]

People. When this was sold to you though, on the cruise and you initially put the down payment in before you even go to this event, this is where I'm like a little hazy on how this all works. Is it sold as well? Obviously it's sold as a self improvement thing. Check there. We know that. But then is it also sold as this can be a career for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You? No, not.

[Julian]

There. Okay, so it's not.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There.

[Julian]

No. Now when you're at this event and you start going through these days and having these enlightening openings, do they start passing out that card? Yeah, like, hey, by the way, if you join us all the way, whatever that is after this, I'm not sure how that works. You know, you could actually become a part of the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Organization. You can become a coach. And the five day. I think the last module is called mission. Like what's the mission of this organization? Have you heard that Margaret Mead quote of there's, there's no, oh, I'm gonna screw it up. There's no doubt that a thought, thought. You just say this all the time. You can look it.

[Julian]

Up. Margaret.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mead. There's no doubt that a group, thoughtful group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed. It's the only Thing that ever has or something like that. Like that. We are going to. Basically, the message is we are going to change the world. There it.

[Julian]

Is. Yeah. The most popular market me quote.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. And Nancy would say that as she would. Was.

[Julian]

Crying. Oh, she would make herself.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cry. Yeah. In the video. And then one eye. I don't remember, but I got emotional. I mean, I cry at, like, long distance phone.

[Julian]

Ads. Yeah, but you're a real.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Person. She's not. Yes, you're. She's a.

[Julian]

Robot. Long.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Distance. Right. You know what I'm talking about. Like, I'm. That's me. So I'm like, you know, I.

[Julian]

Think being an actress was. Was a good call in a lot of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ways. I'm going to go back.

[Julian]

To. You can pull it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I. You know what? That was actually something that was never great at, to be honest. Yeah, I. I'm. I was good at doing it in real life. Like, I can see someone getting married. I don't know. And I'm like, in tears. But to pull it up is harder for me. But, you know, it could be.

[Julian]

Done. Did you do, like, method acting or.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Anything? I dabbled with it. I dabbled.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Strasbourg. Daniel Day, probably more.

[Julian]

Strasbourg.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Julian]

That's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Some real shit that I dabbled. It's more in that. In indie films, not so much in my Hallmark era, but that's. I did both. Hallmark. Yeah, Hallmark, like.

[Julian]

Sav. Hallmark.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Pays. Hallmark pays. I'm so grateful for my Hallmark career, and that's what I did after Next game, but I'll tell you that.

[Julian]

Later. Okay. Where was I? So you do this day. They have the mission at the end, Salsburger's cry, Salzman's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Crying. At the end, Strasberg is crying. Yeah.

[Julian]

She. I know. I asked One Eye because I want to know if there was some Vicks involved or something like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. You know what? She was really good at turning it on and turning it off, and she was the ultimate actress. And I've seen her in action. Like, she could. And you can see it in The Vow Season 2, which I know you didn't get to, but.

[Julian]

She. I haven't seen season.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Two. Definitely check that out. There's some waterworks in there that people are like, oh, but she's crying. I'm like, she's definitely crying. I just don't know what she's crying about. Like, is she remorseful or is she sad for herself? Because she's going to.

[Julian]

Jail. She was a registered before doing this, a registered nurse who had a specialty in hypnotism or something like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. It's always what I was told, and then I don't actually know for sure. What we were told is that she trained with Bandler and Grindler, who are the fathers of NLP neuro linguistic programming, and that she trained with them in Ericksonian hypnosis, which are like standard kind of therapeutic models, but they're tools that are a bit like pseudo sciencey. And, you know, even in the therapy world, people are not in agreement about whether they're legitimate or not. But I think both of those things can be used in the right hands, can be very useful and can help people. But if they're in the wrong hands, can be quite.

[Julian]

Detrimental. So in the wrong hands here she's. She's on the mission day getting.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Emotional. Yes. And my boyfriend at the time had actually signed up for the whole 16 day. I had signed up for the five day.

[Julian]

So. Oh, you had the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Option. And he was like, I'm do the whole thing. And I was like, I'm gonna see how it goes. And so he was gonna continue. And I was like, well, I better continue because I had a bit of fomo. Like, what's. If I had such a good time in my five day? And like, what are the last 11 days gonna be? Like, I better do it too. And because technically I had enrolled first and then I had enrolled him not only at the end of our. Our five day, we'd get our. We had a white sash, right. So everyone would get a little red stripe for completing the five days. But I got two red stripes because I had already enrolled somebody. Enrolled is the next name term for recruited, which is also synonymous with building humanity. Oh, so I was a nice term. Yeah. So I was building humanity by bringing in my boyfriend. And I'd already the whole time in my five is like, oh, my God, my mom would love this. And my friend Nikki would really. I like, was writing a list of all my friends that I thought would get this is by day five. So keep in mind, first three days, really skeptical, you know, a bit wary. By day three, I was like, this is great. By day five, like, I'm gonna bring this to.

[Julian]

Canada.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Breakthrough. Kind.

[Julian]

Of. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And then it.

[Julian]

Did. You brought it to Canada? It hadn't really been in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Canada. Well, this was the first one in Canada, thanks to the people in Tacoma. Like, I didn't bring it to Canada. But I, I opened the first center in Canada and like made it thrive there because of all my friends in the film industry and blah.

[Julian]

Blah. Let's, let's take a, let's get to the 30,000foot view in the air to provide full context for people. This has been great. So the people who aren't familiar with this, listening right now, of which there are many, you know, you're given a great outline of you and your background and how you ended up at this moment to potentially even go to this thing and do this and get into this. And people obviously know it all went south. But we keep talking about the Nancy's and particularly we keep talking about Keith Ranieri and obviously people already have an idea that this guy's a complete sociopath and was the head of this thing and you know, know did all this stuff. But let's talk about like who he was, where he came from, his full background to get a picture into it. Because like I was saying earlier, when you watch him on video in the documented stuff, of course now he looks crazy and all that and that's what I think. But you know, this isn't a guy who's like, he's not a, he's not a 12 out of 10. You know what I mean? He's not this unbelievably good looking guy or anything like that. But he has this odd magnetic, no pun intended, but maybe hypnotic kind of charm to him and a way of making it feel like everything is about you when really it's all about him, you know, so who, where did he come from? Who was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He? So the, there's a lot of like lore around Keith Renery and there's like what we were told and then there's what it actually was. So do you want me to start with what we thought he was and then go.

[Julian]

To. That's good. Let's start with what he thought he was and then we'll get to his actual life.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Story. Okay. So when I was introduced to the vanguard, he was the creator of this philosophical movement Nexium, which taught programs like executive training. He was using his 240 IQ after being a double grad at polytechnical whatever the fuck institute RPI in upstate New York. And he was using his brilliant brain to create a modality that would help people to evolve all their limitations and find joy. And then if we reach the world leaders then, then we'd have peace. Essentially. That was, that was the mission. Like if we could reach the right people, we wouldn't bomb each other because we would be integrated and happy and ethical, and we have no need to, like, you know, take each other's shovel from the sandpit of.

[Julian]

The. Almost like a religion.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Says. Yeah, exactly. But we weren't a religion because we wanted to. Which was also his downfall, because then he would have been protected. Like Scientology. Right. So he didn't want to have a religion. He wanted something that, you know, Jews and Christians and Muslims could come together. We could all agree upon and have. Have the same understanding of what good and bad is and have dialogue. And it was going to be the thing that brought world peace. I mean, the most altruistic mission that ever existed. But assuming that it was true would have been great. Wasn't. It wasn't true. Obviously, he. We were told he was a judo champ, champ, chess player, concert pianist. So many things. Like, he was just this renaissance man.

[Julian]

Basically. He's a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Savant. Yeah, he's a savant. Yeah. And anytime people felt weird around him, which I always did, it was like, well, it's because he's, you know, he's. Keith. He's a vanguard. He's the vanguard. He's, you know, he's. He can trigger people's insecurities. I actually thought that the reason I didn't want to spend time with him is because I wasn't smart enough or depthy enough. And that was something that I would get feedback on. Like, I'm too materialistic and he's so depthy. This is. If you connect with him like it's. It. I. I didn't feel secure enough. So that was my. What I thought about myself, and also that we'd been told that we can't. We shouldn't bring anything to him for, you know, advice. If we could ask somebody else, because his time is so precious. It's worth millions of dollars per hour. So we. If it was like. I think it was like $25,000 an hour is his coaching time. Like, that's what he's worth. So I'm not going to ask him about, you know, whatever I was struggling with, if I could ask my coach. But I think intuitively I just didn't like him. You know, I didn't. I felt uncomfortable around him, and I think even at the beginning, I respected him, but I didn't want to, like, pursue him, to spend time with him. Like, a lot of people would be like, I want to get his time and, like, talk to him about whatever it is they were working on. And I just didn't do that for whatever reason, but I think it's that. I think it's just that, like, somewhere, intuitively, I was like, that's not. Not. That's gonna keep him over.

[Julian]

There. Safe to say, though, at the time, outside of a little details and like, that 03 Forbes article that you had Googled, it's not like the guy had a Wikipedia.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Page.

[Julian]

No. With all of his escapades and life story and whatever, you didn't have all that. But now that we do know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

What do we do know about him? Yeah. So he goes, yeah, so what we know now? And I'm gonna butcher this, because this is what I've been told. I didn't know him in this time, but what I've been told. Told from other people who've been, you know, that were close to him during this time is that he was not very smart. He had, like, a. He was on probation or whatever at RPI and a 2.6 or something like a low GPA and was using his even. Okay, let me back up for a second. He had a low GPA but was, like, high on the charts of, like, certain IQ testing and had been since he was little. And that went to it. This is what we were told by somebody who knew him his whole life, that he got some testing when he was little, and that went to his head that he was, like, better than everybody else and had been kind of manipulating people around him, especially women.

[Julian]

Since he was, like, 12. Who's another Brooklyn guy, too.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right? Was it Brooklyn? I think it's Albany. I think he grew up in.

[Julian]

Albany. Can we Google.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That?

[Julian]

Yeah. Where he was. Where he was born and grew up. Could have sworn. I mean, I maybe would know better than me, but. Born in Brooklyn. Born in Brooklyn. But was he raised in Albany? That's important. What have we got? He moved to Suffren when he was five. Okay. So, yeah, so he's raised in upstate New.

[Sarah Edmondson]

York. Saffron's in.

[Julian]

Upstate? Oh, I assume so. It's, like, right over the border.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. I never even heard of.

[Julian]

That. Yeah, got.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. And we'd heard that he. That his father. We knew someone who knew his father who said that. That at the age of 12, he was, like, telling multiple women that, like, they were the one. And they were like. He. He was. He was manipulating multiple women at the same time from a very young age. And this continued into his 20s. And he had multiple businesses. One of them was called cbi Consumers, Byline.

[Julian]

International. Didn't he start at, like, Amway or.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Something? Yeah, He's. He did some Amway tr. Amway. Twaining is where he started. And CBI was definitely. He was an MLM as well. And this is before Costco and Sam's club were really big. And that took off and apparently, like when I was in it and we were told what happened is that the. This CBI was such a threat to things like Costco and Sam's club that they went after him to shut it down because, you know, his similar business, it was like wholesale food, wholesale vitamins products, different things that. But in a pyramid scheme. Like a pyramid. And that's important. Yeah. And he, He. I'm going to butcher the details of this, but he. I basically, they. He paid a bunch of fees and he was told he could never. He could never start a pyramid, you know, an MLM ever again, which he didn't. That's why he's not on any of the paperwork of all the esp. That's why he's the philosophical founder. He's not the president. Nancy's the president. So basically he did it again in Teresante with Nexium, but had Nancy be the.

[Julian]

President. Now what. Let's start with this. What do we know about. Prior to Nexium? His personal, actual partner.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Relationships. From what we know his. He was. I guess the term would be polyamorous. Like, he had multiple partners and some of the women knew about the other women and they, like, lived together and other women didn't. And he would, like, bring people in and not tell them or like, I guess he was trying, like, see what works. Should we tell him in advance and see what sticks or not tell them and then like, connect the. You know, create the trauma bond and then there. And then introduce the other women. So, yeah, he. He went through. He cycled through quite a few. And by the time I joined, some of it was like OG women that he'd known since he was like.

[Julian]

19.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wow. Were still with him. And I thought they were like his executive board and his assistants and things like that, but they were his. His spiritual wives. And for those of people who are listening, who can't. This is so much information is that ESP was pitched as a personal development training program. Like Tony in the Tony Robbins world. Right. And that's a. That's a. There was a lot of stuff like that at the time. And there still is. There's psi, There's EST Earhart seminar training, which turned into the Landmark Forum and Lifespring. And I mean, all these things, I think are super problematic because they're large group. They're called large group awareness training, as you were familiar with that term.

[Julian]

Lgat? I don't think so.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. So anytime you're doing therapy in a large group, so large group awareness training is what they call it is. It's just really problematic because they're not. You're doing transformational deep inner work in a group which like most times, like I'm not a trained therapist, you know what I mean? Like, I was digging into people's psyche with tools that were given to me. I mean I was good at it. And I think that's about not to pop my own tires. But I think I was good because my parents were therapists and I was able to help people like navigate troubling waters. But if you go to something like Tony Robbins and you're with thousands of people in an arena and you're having a, like a emotional breakthrough, no one's there to help you unless you're one on one with Tony Robbins on stage, you know, so it's. It can be very dangerous for.

[Julian]

Sure. So he also though, in addition to have living polyamorously and all that, we now know he also from a younger man's age, I should say, like, you know, even dating back to his early 20s. But throughout his adulthood he was also a pedophile. And he was, he was essentially. Sometimes I think there was one. I don't know if you knew any of these girls personally, but there was even one where he like sponsored some Mexican girls to like come to America, then made them his sex slaves or something like that. And they were all underage when he did. Eventually they came of age after they had already been abused. But like meaning there were.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Many.

[Julian]

Yeah. Patterns of this that just weren't known when you were coming into.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nexium. Yeah, Even when we were there, there was a whole curriculum that he taught us about like slander and, and like God, it's complicated to explain, but he was like, what are they going to say? We, we got this training from day one. People are gonna say we're in a cult. Why do they say it's a cult? Because that's cuts you off at the knees. They're not saying you are doing X bad thing. A cult just is sort of a smear. And you, if someone says you're in a cult, you say what's bad about what I'm doing? And even people who said I was in a cult, like, okay, I know it's weird. I feel felt found. I thought it was weird too. What what are we doing that's bad? I'm in a success program. I'm working through my limitations. I'm happier. Like, go yourself. Right, right. So I lost my train of thought. Help me find the.

[Julian]

Thread. She was saying, oh.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. What's the worst thing you could say to someone? He's a pedophile. Of course they're going to call him a pedophile. So if there was any news about that, and there was, the Times Union up in Albany was always saying, you know, he did this, he did that. I was like, well, of course they're going to say that because he's teaching ethics and he's pushing back on all the unethical things that are happening in the world. Of course they're going to do a smear campaign against him. So we just thought that was funny.

[Julian]

Funny. He's getting out in front of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. He got. He totally got out in front of it. So.

[Julian]

Yes. You never.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Saw.

[Julian]

No. Anything that looked.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Suspicious. Here's what I saw. My, My very first red flag was with one of my girlfriends that I had brought in friends that. That's a girl. Okay. So one of my friends I brought. Yeah, My.

[Julian]

My. Was she born a girl too? All.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. That's my, my son who's 6. I was like, mom, don't say girlfriend because you're not a lesbian. I'm.

[Julian]

Like 6 year old son.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Saying that he's the cutest kid. He's so funny. Yeah, Sorry, Ace. Okay. He's like, okay, yeah. My girl, my friend, that's a girl I brought in. And my. I mean, one of the red flags was that she wanted to move to Albany and she had a very successful career and as an actor. And I'm like, why moving to Albany? Like, I was in. I was in it to win it, but I wasn't moving to.

[Julian]

Albany. You were out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In. I was out in the world in Vancouver. I was like, at this point we're like doing trainings down in la. We're doing trainings at like A List Actors Homes. We were. It was very.

[Julian]

Glamorous. You're doing trainings at A List Actors Homes. Any names.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There? Oh.

[Julian]

Man. You don't have.

[Sarah Edmondson]

To. I don't want to say it's out there. I just feel like I don't want to drag anyone through.

[Julian]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

Apply. The one person that has been public about it was Gerard Butler. And he. That was somebody who was like, okay at the time to say it. There's other people that have come out since but never wanted to be associated. Maybe like, took a five day. There was one very famous actress who, who did a five day at her home. Nancy went and trained it. I'm like, I should go because I'm an actor. I wasn't allowed to go. I was really mad. Very famous actress. Anyway, that was all like, it was blowing up. Like, we thought, this is, you know, this is happening. We're doing this. Meanwhile, my friend's moving to Albany and I remember thinking, like, why? Like, she and her career is way more successful than I was. She was the lead on a show and I remember getting the hit that they were. This is actually in my book, this moment where I'm like, like, are they. Are they like, sleeping together? The way that she talked about him, like, I have to be Keith. Yeah. She was like, I have to be available for Keith. Like, he might call me and I'm like, for what? Like, oh, we're doing some projects. Like, she was a bit cagey about it and. And I dismissed it for so many different.

[Julian]

Reasons.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. A, like you said, he's not 12 out of 10. B, as facilitators, as coaches, we weren't supposed to have relationships. Like, if I had brought you in as a recruit, I wasn't supposed to date you because that would have been wildly inappropriate. Appropriate. Right. And so. And same thing with him. Like, of course he's the head of this and it's personal and it's. We're in each other's, you know, like, that would admin. And then what was the other reason? Yeah, just like, ew. So I, I had the feeling and then I dismissed it. Oh, and he's.

[Julian]

Celibate. Oh, right, right. He.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Doesn'T. Doesn't.

[Julian]

Yeah. Now, what, what did you. How often were you going out to Albany yourself? Like, you weren't living.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There? No, at the beginning, a couple times a year. So for sure, I did my first five day in Vancouver and then I finished my 11 day out in Albany a few months later and I rolled right from there into V week. V week Vanguard Week. Oh, yeah. Red flag. 10 day celebration for Vanguard's birthday at a summer camp at a YMCA in upstate New.

[Julian]

York. At a YMCA Silver.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Bay. It was beautiful. YMCA retreat Center Silver Bay. If you look it up, gorgeous. If you see that in the vow. And there's like big like drone shots of.

[Julian]

Like. Yeah, that's a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ymca. Yeah, that's a ymca.

[Julian]

What? The YMCA is a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Weird. I know. There it is. Look at.

[Julian]

That. Come.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On. That's the.

[Julian]

Way. That's a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ymca. It's a Silver.

[Julian]

Bay. That don't look like the Brooklyn YMCA Beef. Yeah, it's a little. It's a little higher class that's given some Buckingham palace.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Bullshit. I mean, keep in mind it was still pretty rustic. It looks pretty.

[Julian]

There. Oh, yeah, look, it's got the YMCA logo. Do you see.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That?

[Julian]

Yeah. Did we miss that? This one. X out. No, no. X out. Out. It was. It was just their ex out of the thing. I'll see it. See it right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There. Oh, there it is. Yeah, the wm.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No.

[Julian]

Not. All I ever think about is like musty old men going into a locker for. For.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Steamer. My boys play basketball at the.

[Julian]

Ymca. I'm sorry to hear.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. No, no, it's. It's a whole.

[Julian]

Thing. I would think you'd have.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ptsd. Yeah, I know, but didn't look like. Doesn't look like that, but yeah.

[Julian]

No, you're like, yeah, this is. This is classless enough around here for me. Jesus.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Christ. But Silver Bay in August was beautiful. And we had. We had some. We had great times there. And I went to Vanguard Week. 12 years in a.

[Julian]

Row. Vanguard did a 10 day celebration for his.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Birthday. That's why I miss. I've never been to Burning man because.

[Julian]

It. Yeah, I don't think that's for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You. No, it's 100. Not for.

[Julian]

Me. Yeah. I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Think. I don't like dust, first of all. Fall. Yeah, I like to dress up, but I don't. I don't like dust and dirt.

[Julian]

Wind. So no, I. I don't know. I. I don't have a. What's it called? Any motivation or desire to go to Burning Man. It just sounds like, you know, dirty. It. It sounds like. What's that. What's that one where they. The owl out in the woods. Out in. Out in. Out in San Francisco. Nixon had the famous quote. Didn't Alex Jones like catch it one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Year?

[Julian]

Yeah. Bohemian.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Grove. I don't even know that.

[Julian]

One. Yeah. You know what? Don't worry about it. But yeah, that's When I hear. Maybe it's the bees, but when I hear Burning man, it, like, kind of gives me a little bit of Bohemian Grove vibes. I don't know if I'd want to go out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There. No, I think I missed my window.

[Julian]

For. Yeah, for that. Do you think it was deliberate that he wore longer hair and a beard? And, I mean, what I'm getting at is Jesus.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Vibes. Yeah, I think that was deliberate. And then there was a time about five years in when they cleaned him up and they cut his hair. If you. I mean, you pull up some pictures, there's like, early. Early Vanguard, and then there's Late.

[Julian]

Vanguard. Late vanguard. He had.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Eras. He did. He had. He started wearing, like, little, like, Lacoste shirts and nice jeans and, like, cute sneakers. They cleaned him up. He had a. He had, like, a.

[Julian]

Whole. Who's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

They? I mean, I thought it was his assistants, but his spiritual wives. Oh.

[Julian]

Yeah. From the actual.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Yeah. See there? That's late vanguard. So early vanguard is the. That's how we. The long hair is what he looked like when I met.

[Julian]

Him.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right.

[Julian]

Schlubby. And.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Then. And then over there on the left. Yeah, that was his cleaned up professorial.

[Julian]

Vibes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Nice. Some nice crew necks and V necks.

[Julian]

And. Yeah, he was. That's the thing. He was still trying to give off a soft look. He wasn't trying to look like a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Hardo. Oh, look at. He's got his hand there. He's got his.

[Julian]

Hand. I noticed when he would. When he'd be speaking with people, he would turn his head like that and look at.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You. Yeah. Oh, God, you're creeping me out a little bit. Yeah. Actually, my husband, who was also an actor, for Nancy's birthday, Nancy used to have this festival of flowers, just Vanguard Week. And then there's a weekend for Nancy. Festival of.

[Julian]

Flowers. Festival of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Flowers. Everyone would give her flowers, or whole house will be full of flowers. Super fucking creepy. And she. People would do skits for her. And one of the skits, they asked because my husband, Nippy, was really good at doing impressions of everybody in nxivm, which was, like, really funny. People, like, do David. Do David. He'd, like, walk around like, oh, my God, it's so funny. He had an impression of Vanguard, and they got. I can get it for you if you want. It's hilarious. They. Because we have it on. On Vimeo. And they got him to. To. He, like, did an impression. This is when we were still in it. And it was so funny because he nailed all his. His mannerisms and his, like, his little glasses thing and his. And the way that he taught, like, basically, yes. Presenting as a. As this deep, philosophical, caring, empathetic person. He was like, he. He wanted. He was mirroring the mannerisms of somebody who was like a guru and caring. And he. He was. He was. He was acting, you know, and Nippy. Nailed it. And I obviously was the back, so I didn't see him. But apparently Keith. Keith looked remarkably uncomfortable because I think.

[Julian]

He. Mask.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Off. Yeah, mask.

[Julian]

Off. How tall was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Keith? You might want to look that up. I want to say 5, 7, or 8. I know, I know. Miscavige.

[Julian]

Too. They always are. Trying to take Matt Cox, my Buddy, who's like 55 and was a prolific mortgage.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Fraudster. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. Like, he's always, like, never trust us. We're always trying to take over the world.

[Sarah Edmondson]

World. Napoleon.

[Julian]

Complex. I'm like, dude, five foot.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Five. Oh, there you go. Shorter than I.

[Julian]

Thought. Shorter. And.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like. And I'm five.

[Julian]

Four. I'll tell you, one of the things that really freaked me out, and you just kind of mentioned it, is when he would do the arm cross. I can't even do it, but, like, the way he would do the arm cross thing. So, like, kind of grab and almost like his shoulders. It's hard to describe, but people will know it when they go look at the tape on the valve and, like, almost grab it in, like, a philosophical way. And lean his shoulders back and tilt his head. Head. There's a lot of video of Jeffrey Epstein doing the same exact.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thing.

[Julian]

Really? And it's such a. I can't just. I can't do it, and I can't describe it correctly. I could do the head thing, but, like, the. That one's easy. But, like, the way they would just kind of like, move their shoulders and move their arms or whatever. There's like a. There's. There's almost like this soft underbelly thing to it, and you feel really weird watching it. Maybe it's just because I've seen so much tape of Epstein doing that over the years when. When you're looking through this case. But it was the same exact kind of thing. And I was like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh. So it was interesting is that he taught us about sociopathy suppressives. A full suppressive, not suppressive tendencies. But someone with. With that was a full suppressive was what I now know as a socio. A sociopath. And it was.

[Julian]

Something. We taught a class on.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. Yeah. It was called the Fall. And it was. If someone's taken the fall. They've learned. Okay, I think I need to tell you this because this is in line with your podcast. Gimme a second. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go into Nexium land for a minute.

[Julian]

Okay. Oh, it's method.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Acting. I just have to, I just have to retain a bunch of information I haven't talked about in a while. Um, hold on a second. Backing up. So one of the principles in Nexium was that we defined self esteem as a range of options that somebody has in a given context. So you might have high self esteem around money cuz you feel good about making money, but maybe you're bad with relationships. You're, you're, you're, you have low self esteem in that area. So somebody with high self esteem in all areas of their life feels like if they, you know, if they don't, if someone doesn't want to go out with them, they still feel fine because like, you know, there's more fish in the sea, right? So there's lots of options. So options are based on ethics and if you're a good person and you're ethical, you're going to play by the rules of the world, which is like no lying, stealing, cheating, right? And those are your options and you have a morality and you know that if you do something bad on if this is like a line, lying, stealing and cheating are bad things. You wouldn't do that because you're a moral, ethical, conscious person. Right? So these are your options. Sociopaths realize that they can do a bad thing and they don't feel bad about it. So they have all these options that we don't have. I'm assuming you're not a.

[Julian]

Sociopath. No, I feel awful about leaving a piece of trash on the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ground. So a sociopath has all of these options in positive and then negative in terms of like lying, stealing and cheating. And therefore they're very, they have, you know, when someone has options and they have high self esteem, they're like a high self esteem person. You want to be around them. They have, you know, they present a certain way. And so when someone's taken the fall and they become a full suppressive, they operate in the world here, but we're not suspecting that they're over here on this side because we don't project that onto them, them. So when you meet somebody like Keith or whoever, any one of these people that you've talked about, we assume that they are who they say they are because we wouldn't lie and they Know.

[Julian]

That. But he's teaching it like the wolf in the hen.

[Sarah Edmondson]

House. Yeah. So you'd never suspect that he had taken the fall and that he was a full suppressive and he was a sociopath. And we even did whole classes about, like, how sociopaths have different ways of playing out. Like, they. They can, you know, slash your tires and feel good about it, or they can slowly poison your dog over time. And they prefer that because. Says it's more enjoyable to watch you suffer. Like, those are the kind of things that we learn.

[Julian]

About. And that's like almost beyond sociopathy right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There. Right, that's. I mean, it is. But yeah, it's. It's next level. And. And there's a whole other thing, if you want to really deep dive is I believe there's women around him that died. Like the original women that he had from his inner circle. They died of a very aggressive cancer when we were there. The two purple sashes, by the way. So I got to. Green sash. There's one blue. Blue and two purple sashes. That's the high up as it went. They both died of cancer when I was there. And I believe that they were poisoned and he poisoned them. This is my opinion. Allegedly. Like.

[Julian]

No. I unfortunately, would totally buy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It.

[Julian]

Yeah. When you look at his track record, whatever you want to call it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Resume. Yeah. And they. These women, like, I knew them, they were fit, they were exercised. They had infrared saunas. They drank kombucha and green juice. Like, these were. Were fit women who.

[Julian]

Also.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cancer. Barbara Jeske had a brain tumor, and Pam K. Fritz, his. Jelaine had a. I want to say liver. I forget. Exactly. You can probably look it up. It's been a while since I've talked about that, but I was at both of their funerals, and both of the women had very aggressive downfalls very, very quickly. And one of the women that I've talked to was there in Pam's hospital room when she was dying, and he was like, putting stuff in her IV bag. Yeah. So, like, there's. And I don't know why the FBI didn't touch. I guess they had enough stuff to get him in jail without trying to prove that. But, like, there's a lot of evidence that points to. He just.

[Julian]

Was. The woman saw that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Happening and felt uncomfortable with it. But, like, he's the vanguard.

[Julian]

So. So she did.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And. Yeah. And there's other things. There's other, like, stories I could tell you that point. Point to that. But those were the older women that were. Had been with him, and they were his age, and he was getting, like, I would been too. Barely too old. Like, they were talking women in their, like, like, you know, 20, 30 years younger than him that were coming in, and he was expanding his harem, and I think the older women were like, hey, yeah. His harem and women spirit, his circle of spiritual wives. So he had to get rid of the old guard to make room for the new guard. Sorry this is so.

[Julian]

Dark. No, no, it's. I. I fully. I fully expected it, because I know what that is, and you have a really good way of being able to delve into this stuff. And like I said before we got on camera, when it gets to stuff that you don't feel comfortable talking about, no problem at all. I just appreciate you sharing. But it's strange, like, when I go to do one like this once in a while, where it's gonna be like. Like, really heavy stuff, and I know it's coming. Like, I. I wake up a certain type of way in the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Morning.

[Julian]

Really? Yeah. I don't know. I, like, kind of. I'm ready for it, but I'm not ready for it, if that makes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sense. Yeah, I feel the same way every time. I'm like, why am I still talking about this? Because it's like. I mean, sometimes it's cathartic, sometimes it's, like, ravages my nervous.

[Julian]

System. But I think it helps a ton of people. You can't see. Yeah, because it allows people to see where. Where you could fall into traps or where things in your life could be zigging. You want it to zag, and, you know, you pick.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The. Honestly, every time I think I want to quit, and especially with our podcast, and it gets draining, and sometimes it's really rewarding, and other times it's hard. Every time we want to quit, we get an email or DM of like, I just got out of X thing because of the vow or because of your podcast. I'm like, okay, well, this. Let's just.

[Julian]

Keep. You're saving lives. That's. That's a great. That's a great thing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thing. Well, I get to help people, which is, ironically, what I wanted to do in nxivm. Like, I. I was helped, and I felt changed, and then I wanted to do the same, which is why I was such a good recruiter, because I was like, I really believed it, in which I. We kind of skipped that part.

[Julian]

I. You know, we're gonna come back to that. We're gonna come back to that. I'm Just staying on Keith because we're kind of going through his psychology right now. So it's. You believe. And. And I. I would totally buy that you believe that he may have even poisoned people around him and. And basically had them killed. That would make sense to me that he would do that. But, you know, you mentioned he was building a harem here. And we're going to get to where that got really, really dark and quite literal. But, you know, the organization is filled with hundreds of people and it's men and.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Women.

[Julian]

Yeah. Do you think. Obviously we know now he was constantly trying to get access to young, vulnerable women and stuff like that, to take control of them and, you know, live out his six sadistic, twisted fantasies. Do you think that he just let men in there for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cover? Kinda, yeah, I think so. Like with my husband who's like, you know, former quarterback, Ivy League, went to Brown, like, model, like a handsome man. And he wasn't targeted the same way. I think he was there so that it would give credibility to. For other people to look like, well, he's here. You know, I mean, he. Obviously Keith's not trying to get him into his harem, but it's like he gets to have a, you know, a loyal.

[Julian]

Soldier. Yeah. On the outside, I think it was maybe, correct me if I'm wrong here, maybe it was Mark who was saying in the vow. Mark Vicente, that he was like the only male.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Friend.

[Julian]

Yeah. Keith had. Like, he was the only one from the organization that really hung around Keith. And Keith seemed to enjoy running, hanging around him. And my takeaway was, well, that's because Mark's capturing him. Him and is like allowing. Putting him on film to build his legacy. And he sees, you know, the cameraman as. As the creator of that. Is that a fair.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Takeaway? Yeah. And I think that, you know, in the same way that, like, I didn't take to Keith, I more took to. To Nancy and. And her daughter Lauren, who's the person I really looked up to, which comes in later. You know, Mark really did put Keith on a pedestal. And, you know, I don't know if Sarma talks about this in Part two, but we all have our, Our patterns. There's fight or flight and there's also.

[Julian]

Fawn.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Fawn. Fawn, which I don't think she said that term because she hadn't read the book yet. I just gave it to her and we're reading it together right now. And it's something that we both did, which is like, there's fight, Fight or flight. Right. Which way everyone knows about survival. Freeze. Which often happens in like a Harvey Weinstein situation where women just like freeze and dissociate and they like, they try to get through it because they know they can't fight back. Back. And then there's fawn, which is to be agreeable, to be even, sometimes even flirty, which can happen in one of those situations. And that certainly happened with me where I'm like, oh, I better just be appease this to smooth it out until I can get out. Right. I've never had a situation like we talked about earlier, but I've had similar, like, could have gone that way for.

[Julian]

Sure. You know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Dangerously. Dangerously. Yeah. Dangerously close. And appeasing and being a people pleaser, which I actually remember Nadine was talking about on your podcast, is like, yes. How, you know, women are conditioned to be agreeable and to. Otherwise, you're a. Right. And you. And I didn't have the term fawn in my vocabulary, but I knew that I. I knew I was a people pleaser. I knew as an accommodator, I'm being a caretaker and over mother, like a nurturer. I was like, that's just sort of like, oh, you need. You're not feeling well. I have a vitamin C in my bag. Let me take care of that for you. Like, that feels really good for me. And that sort of feeds into the whole, like, we're just. We're going to get along and I'm going to be appreciated by you and that's my value. Does that make.

[Julian]

Sense? Yeah. Where do you think that came from, you wanting to take care of people? Does that have anything to do with your way younger brother.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Or. My mom got really. So after my parents divorce, my mom got really sick and she had rheumatoid arthritis. Oh, wow. And I. This chunk of my life is very. I don't have a lot of memories, but I have a very strong memory of like, rubbing cream into her feet so she could walk at a young age. And I just don't think I had a really necessarily normal childhood in that way. Maybe like reverse parenting in terms of like, caretaking, like, didn't have the full, like. I just felt. I think I felt better being somebody who could take care of others. And I think my parents were going through stuff and I kind of grew up quickly in that.

[Julian]

Way. Yeah. I was talking with Sarma about like, like her love languages and where some of that, like, could have come in, but it's kind of coming in with you too. Like, clearly clearly your affirmation. You're probably quality time as well because you wanted to feel a part of things around people and then at least on an active level. How you show love is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Service.

[Julian]

Yes. Is it in the same direction coming back to you too? Do you value when people show that to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You? Yeah, I do. I mean, truthfully, I love them all. I also like gifts.

[Julian]

Yeah. No, there's people. There's people who are dominant in. In four.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sometimes.

[Julian]

Yeah. Have all five in some.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Degree. Yeah. And affirmation is important to me as well. And that's something that I have to like. Yeah. I have to like tell Nitpy. I'm like, I need you to tell me now you know that I look good or like that I'm. That you love me. Because that's not. That was not his love language at all. And that was something we've, you know, we've grown. That's a whole separate. That's a separate.

[Julian]

Podcast. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's. That's interesting too. Like you guys, you guys had a lot of things stacked against you in relationship and.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Especially. This is a total tangent, but especially next. And we weren't allowed to have needs like anything beyond Maslow's like food, water, shelter is what was called a desire. So if I had a like a need to like, if I want. If I felt like, like we were nippy and I started long distance and I felt like upset that he wouldn't text me to say goodnight. If I were to say, can you like communicate with me? Because I want to like, you know, know that we're together and you love me or whatever the. The response would be, I would have to go get an em because what do. Why do I need him to be anything different for me to be?

[Julian]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Whoa. Yeah. So we learn to not have needs. Like I need to self soothe, I need to love myself. I don't need anything from the outside world. So by the end of Nexium, I we to like really do a lot of unwinding to be like, I need to connect with you right now because I would like to talk to you. Like that's really.

[Julian]

Hard.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And. And you know, it's like.

[Julian]

You. You have to deprogram yourself 100%. Like you're literally. You're a real human in every way. You recognize things, you feel things. But you've had this virus.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Software.

[Julian]

Yeah. Put in you and it's not just as simple as like dragging it to the trash, but to the trash box and hitting empty box. You gotta like call over a coder and type in a lot of. And like you know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

100%. I had one. I remember one of my first therapists therapy sessions with a, with a guy who was just like a regular therapist, not a cult counselor, which came later. I was explaining this to him about the needs thing and like exactly what I just said to you. You know, these are the needs and then there's the needs to, to anything else is considered a, in Nexium's term, desire or a non integrated.

[Julian]

Fixation. Can I say something? I've just been thinking this all day. I can't not say.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This.

[Julian]

Yeah. Another huge red flag Looking at hindsight 2020 now is how they use big five dollar words for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Everything. Like.

[Julian]

What? It wouldn't be like, they wouldn't say like let's just make you feel better about yourself. They'd say let's have a modality to spiritual connection with an understanding of the fifth dimension to get to a place of self esteem where you feel.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Good. Oh.

[Julian]

Yeah. You know what I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mean? It's called loaded.

[Julian]

Language. Yes. Yeah. When I, whenever I see someone who can make 15 words where one would suffice, I'm like chill B. You know what I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mean? Yeah. Loaded language is when people start with your language, you know that there's a.

[Julian]

Problem. Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. You want to change how you talk, change what words mean. Major red.

[Julian]

Flag. So when you go, when you back to your timeline though here, when you went out to Albany to do your last 11 days and then you know, now, now at this point that's where they shifted over to the hey, you can join this as a career and be a coach and all that, that. So you go out west, you're doing classes out there. You mentioned you're doing some classes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In LA sometimes and down in Seattle and Tacoma. And Tacoma every weekend almost. I was driving three and a half hours, five hours sometimes with the border from Vancouver to Seattle, Tacoma and doing like a day of training and then coming.

[Julian]

Back. What are you doing during the week? Preparing for that pretty.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Much. I mean at the beginning, at that point I was still acting and auditioning and you know, whatever else I was doing. I don't.

[Julian]

Know. Oh, so you are still.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Trying. I was still acting for the first couple years. I was still acting. In fact. The tools, the tech, which is also Scientology word by the way, the technology, rational inquiry, which is Keith Re's model of helping people. You know, here's the big words again. Evolve your belief system so that you're more integrated. Blah Blah, blah. Be happier. The tech was something. Oh, my God. This is. I was worried this might happen. I feel like my blood sugar is crashing. I'm losing my train of thought. I might have to eat a Power Bar in a second, but we'll.

[Julian]

Take a break whenever you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Want. Thank you. But what we. We're just. What was I doing? Oh, yeah. I was using the tech technology to be a better actor. I had a lot of audition nerves. I would go into an audition and, like, dissociate. I was so.

[Julian]

Nervous.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Dissociate?

[Julian]

Yeah. Like, can you describe what that would be.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like? Like, I would go out of my body and not be pre. Like in. In an audition and acting, you're supposed to be present and connected with the other person and do whatever the dialogue says and. And go on along the ride and sometimes feel it. Feel it. It. Yeah. And if I dissociate it, I come back and I'd be like, I don't even know. I don't even know what I did. Like, I was so nervous that I would check out. So I use the tools to work through my. That pattern again. Em. What. So what. Why. What am I making this mean that I'm so scared? And I got better at auditioning. I started booking more work. I did a film that ended up at tiff, which is an actor. That's like a huge thing. Joey's like, yeah, Tiff at the Toronto Film.

[Julian]

Festival. He's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Tracking. Yeah, I knew that one too, by the way.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. You're like.

[Julian]

Yes. You're like, I know. Let's give me four and a half gold stars. Come.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On. Yeah. Ironically, I played a sociopath in that. In that movie, and that was, like, one of my favorite film.

[Julian]

Roles. Oh, my God. That's like Robert Downey Jr. And Tropic Thunder. I'm the dude that's playing the dude. Describe. You were living that. Very.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sorry. No, it's fine. A little close. Yeah, that's fine. So I was. I was really living my best life. The first couple years in Nexium, I was using the tools. I was getting better as an actor. I was going to tiff. I was flying to la, doing these fancy trainings at the Whistler Film Festival. I was bringing in all my friends that I thought that they would enjoy it. Some of them were moving to Albany. I was like, that's dumb. But okay. Do you. Do you. And things are.

[Julian]

Great. Are you getting. When you bring people in, are you getting paid on.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That? Not at first. So one of the. So one of the ways I was able to do so much curriculum is that they had this thing called three and it's free, where if you brought in three people. I know, so cringe. So I had brought in my boyfriend, I brought in my mother, brought.

[Julian]

My friend Nikki and you brought in your.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mom? Yeah, I brought in my mom because she was, you know, I was like, you gotta do this with me, mom. And she was very reluctant. She, and she was like, I'm not saying the mission statement, I don't want to wear a sash. And like she was, she was on to him. But I just thought she didn't get.

[Julian]

It. The psychologist was on to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Him. Oh yeah. Surprised she knew your mom. You were.

[Julian]

Right. You were right. Okay, good for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You. Yeah, she, she loves to know that. So I got my. So basically three nights free. I got my money back. And instead of taking my money back, I said, use that to finish the 11 day. So I was like, I was trying to make some money. And then because I was telling so many people they're like, you could become a salesperson. So after I had enrolled a certain amount, you could earn 20% of your sales and put that towards more curriculum. So that's how they kind of kept me going. I was, I didn't have the money to pay for it, but I was just bringing people in and that was covering the.

[Julian]

Cost. Were you thinking, so this is where it gets above my pay grade legally. But there is, I believe. Please correct me in the comments on this if I'm wrong and maybe Dee, if you can help out on Google here. I believe there is a technical difference legally between pyramid scheme and multi level marketing. Am I wrong about.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That? I literally just had an episode on this with a woman named Bridget.

[Julian]

Reed. Please.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Explain. Who did a book called Little Bosses Everywhere. And if you want to dig into MLMs, she'd be a great person to.

[Julian]

Have. Okay, that's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Interesting. She's awesome. And she looks at the whole history of it. And so this is not my field, but this is what I've gathered is that there's a lot of people who are very powerful in high places in politics and in the world who are high up in certain things, like Amway, who are friends with people, who are politicians, who have basically loopholes to make it so that MLMs are legal, but they're the, they are pyramid schemes. So like the FTC says don't do it because they're very. Nobody makes money except for the people that start.

[Julian]

Them.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Like 99% of the people that that join don't make money. Just, just the people at the top. Right. But no, they're the same. They're the same thing. MLMs, direct sales, pyramid scheme, it's all the same.

[Julian]

Thing. But so did they ever use. Used. Obviously they didn't use the term pyramid scheme, but did. Was there ever any level of admission inferred or explicit where they said it's multi level.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Marketing? Yeah, it's not multi level marketing because MLMs are unethical and Keith is ethical. Therefore it is not an mlm. I know, I know. I'm so.

[Julian]

Embarrassing. It's not embarrassing. Listen, hindsight's always 20 20, but.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There were people who were like doing Mary Kay or doing like other or even Amway and they had had to. If they were going to join Nexium, they couldn't do those other things. They couldn't, they couldn't go past two stripe. Remember the stripes on the visage? Two stripe coach if they were going to do that other thing. So this was.

[Julian]

Like. Cuz that's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Dirty. That's multi level marketing. We don't do that. Yeah, we don't. We're. We're.

[Julian]

Clean. That's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Yeah. This created by Keith, Smartest, most ethical noble man in the world. Celibate renunciate.

[Julian]

Monk. Celibate renunciate monk. Well, he didn't. He wasn't bald, so he could have been a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Monk. Yeah, that's.

[Julian]

True. And they don't have facial. Monks don't have facial.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Errors.

[Julian]

Right? They don't with.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Pedro. Yeah. I don't.

[Julian]

Know. There was a monk in an airport next to me wearing like a $40,000 watch and, and Yeezy slides when I was in Dallas. I was real confused by.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. Yeah, you're like.

[Julian]

What? I was like, hold on a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Minute. Yeah. What's your.

[Julian]

Value? I don't know much here, but I know that something there. And he had like the iPhones. The new iPhone 17. Yeah. Side. I didn't put that tweet out at the time, but I was thinking.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. Well, this is related. Part of the whole thing like in the heyday before went south was that the Dalai Lama came and endorsed us.

[Julian]

Right? Oh yeah. Now what? What? Hold on. This. I forgot about this. What the. So was is the Dalai Lama the one that was hanging out with like a 10 year old boy though.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Too? You mean where he like put his tongue in his mouth? That thing? Yeah. Remember that? Yeah, yeah. And if you said anything about it, you were like, like not cognitive. You weren't like being sensitive to other people's culture or some. Yeah. And he was like. It was. It was.

[Julian]

Framed. Sensitive to other people's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Culture. Yeah. There's like, God, I'm gonna butcher this. If you want to look it up, Joey. It's. I'm now massaging Joey to do. It was a thing that happened where it was some Tibetan phrase of, like, I'm gonna butcher it. Something about, like, their tongue. It's a. It's a phrase that translates to, I don't know. You got.

[Julian]

It. You got it. Thief. Sonic. Effectual behavior, you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Said. Yeah. Suck is. Suck your. Suck my tongue. Yeah, suck my tongue is the. Is the term in Tibet, which is a cultural thing. And he did it, and it was caught on camera, but, like, it was the most egregious abuse of power by a spiritual leader because he's. And then they're making it normal. Like, this is something we do in our culture. It doesn't matter. You're a 10 year. You're getting 10 year. Like a little. A kid up here and. And doing this behavior with them is caught on. Anyway, it was a whole scandal. This came late. This.

[Julian]

Is. That was later, but still interesting that he.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Was.

[Julian]

Yeah. Coming to a. He came to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

America. He came to America and he was going to do this endorsement. And then he heard about the. You know, the Forbes article, I think. Yeah. But basically the. The rumors and the rumbling and seen some articles and decided it wasn't a good idea to endorse him. Then Keith and Nancy went on the Bron private jet and flew to Dharma Sala and convinced the Dalai Lama this isn't the Vow. It's all taped. And you can see Keith getting into rapport and doing this, like, thinking man's kind of thing. And, like, it's just this really terrible thing that he's being persecuted. And, you know, Dalai Lama knows. What's that? What's. What that's like. And, like, basically meets him at.

[Julian]

That level, turns it on him. Oh.

[Sarah Edmondson]

My. Yeah, it's. It's like, if you want to see NLP in action, it's that scene and he meets him and Dalai Lama's like, oh, I get that. And he ends up coming. We also heard that there was a $1 million donation from the Bronfmans to the Dalai Lama. So it was kind of a paid endorsement. But all of these things were happening at the time, like, in the heyday when things were good. And, yes, you know, I was recruiting and I started to make money, and I was acting and I was traveling and the Dalai Lama's endorsing. And around this time, we think that we're also curing Toronto Tourette's. Right. Which is. You probably didn't see because that's season two of the.

[Julian]

Vow. You thought you were carrying.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Tourette's. We thought we were carrying Tourette's because somebody came in 2 Nexium with full blown Tourette's.

[Julian]

And. Oh, I heard about.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This. Yeah. And then was able to. He's here in New York if you want to.

[Julian]

Interview. I want to interview that girl from. What's that show? Bailey Unlimited. Bailey Unlimited or whatever on. Yeah, the girl. The girl. She's. That's interesting.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Interesting.

[Julian]

Yeah. I mean, those videos I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Have. And. And there's. I think there's some videos of Mark who had Tourette's, and he would sit in the front of. Next to him and be like, Nancy, be training. And he'd be like, yeah, seriously. No, you. And you said it.

[Julian]

First. There's one of the funniest videos ever is Andrew Cuomo trying to interview that girl. And she's like, I. I'm not trying to make fun of Tourette's, but, like, she's like. She's going. She's given, like a normal answer and she's. She's like, Jamie's a. Like that. Like, you're so brave. And he's trying not to laugh. And it's like it's a human thing because, like, clearly she has something wrong with her. Like, there's people who accuse that girl of, like, faking. She ain't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Faking. No, no, it's.

[Julian]

A. It's a real thing. Listen, if she's faking, Daniel Day Lewis is the worst actor I've ever seen in my life. Life, you know, so, like, you on one hand, you feel bad about it. It's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

A.

[Julian]

It. Some of it can get a little bit funny, though. Not to be cruel. It just. It just is. It's like you see people and you're like, oh, my God. Imagine going into like a. It's like when you go onto a plane and like someone yells things that are illegal. It's like the same kind of vibes, but it's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Funnier. Oh, yeah. No, and I wasn't around during those trainings, but, like, people talked about it for. For years afterwards. It's like the things that Mark said to Nancy that he got it with because he had Tourette's. And then so his Tourette's went away and so they tried to duplicate what happened. With him on other people. And they had a study, and there's actually a film about it, and it seemed to be working. And I'm not a, you know, expert. I can't really say what happened there, but I have my.

[Julian]

Theories. They're adding pseudoscience to the mix with things like that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Effectively. Yeah, yeah. And I think for Mark, he just got. Was able to, like, do whatever he needed to do to calm his nervous system to not. You know, he used to do this thing where he'd be like. He'd, like, bite the era. Whatever he did, he was able to not do it. And so that was the proof. Right. Like, we've just cured Tourette's, so we have to, you know, make a.

[Julian]

Study. Now we. We got to take a quick tangent on something you said, because it's a big part of the story, because any organization like this, obviously there's sadistic things that. That Keith was trying to serve himself sexually and. And from a power dynamic and stuff. But of course, part of that also is he's trying to make a lot of money and be rich and cloaking it in this. Like, oh, we're making everyone better. But to do that, you gotta get money flown in there, and you gotta get connections. You gotta take advantage of people, or you gotta get people to believe or whatever. And so he did that, obviously, with all the people who joined, but he was also able to make a relationship with one of the richest families in America, the Bronfmans, who are of Seagram's fortune. Yeah, who. What didn't he make a relationship with, like, a bunch of them, and then one of the daughters, like, ended up being integral and. And heavily involved. What is the full story.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There? So they were involved before I joined, so I don't know how they got in, but I think it was just like anyone else. Like, I got in, like, some. A referral. I think it's. I think. I actually don't know how they got in to be. Totally. I can't remember. But it was. But they came in at the same time. Sarah Bronfman and Claire Bronfman came in at the same.

[Julian]

Time. How do you convince a billionaire that they need.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Help? Yeah, I mean, I. I only have the stories because, again, they came before me. But I had heard, like, Claire was a professional show jumper. Right? Like, what that was. That's what she was.

[Julian]

Like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Equestrian. Yeah. Yeah, this is.

[Julian]

Me. Oh, wait, like the toy horse.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thing? No, like, on a. Oh, on an actual. On a horse. Jumping over things. Like. And you she was wanting to go to the Olympics and she, you know, she had a. She had horses and she had a horse farm. And she, you know, she. I think she believed that he could help her. And I mean, that's. That's what the story was. Any. Anyone who, like, moved to Albany and like, decided to devote their life to the mission was also offered help by Keith. Like, like I said, my friend and the actor. Like, we all had our hopes, you know, and dreams dangled to us, and that was. Was how people came up. Could I take a tangent on that story, please? So my husband actually came in before me and his ex girlfriend was the one that brought him in. So his childhood sweetheart girlfriend brought him in, kind of dangling like, maybe we're gonna get back together. And that's how he came into.

[Julian]

Nexium to like, oh, she was already.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In. Exam. She was already in. She was already in. And he came in to, like, check it out and like, be close to her. And her dad was like a brain surgeon from Yale. And like, you know, he's like, well, you know, this is legit. And checked it out to like, also maybe, you know, whatever was gonna happen there. So he did it with her. That ended up not happening. And he moved to LA to be an actor after taking some training. He was. He had like, taken the training, thought this is sort of like, you know, it was helpful for him, put some tools in his life and then is like, you know, but this isn't really going anywhere. The Forbes article came out and he's like, peace out. Move to la. Then cut. Two years later, Mark Vicente gets involved. He's doing this film about global warming that Keith's helping him write. And Keith suggests my husband for one of the lead roles. So they fly out to New York to. Sorry, to la. And they invite Nippy to come to Albany and be the lead role in this movie that's going to be made. He's been away from the organization for years. Okay? And this. The reason I'm. This has a. This has a. An important point to what you just said. So as an actor, Joey, you'll appreciate this. He gets flown in. They. They pay for his move. They pay for him to relocate. They come to Albany. He gets flown in a private helicopter from Albany down the river to Bergdorf Goodman to get suited for. Like, good for costume fitting to get suits made, because he's going to be an actor in this movie. And if you're an actor and you go to get a costume fitting in a private helicopter, it's on. Right, Right. Like, that's what I'm saying. The dangling of the dreams. That's how they got him back. This movie never was made ever. Like, I never got past script rewrites. He waited in Albany for years. I mean, I'm glad he did because we ended up getting together. But the point is, is that for Claire, whatever she. Whatever Keith dangled for her was enough for. For her to say, you know, I'm gonna give you. And you can look it up.

[Julian]

Too. Claire.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Bronfman. Claire Bronfman. Millions of dollars. And he gambled. I don't want to say 58 million. That's the number that comes to my mind. I could be wrong about that. But. Millions of.

[Julian]

Dollars. He gouged her money and then gambled it away.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Keith. It. Yeah. Because he thought he had, like. Had figured out the. The system and was like. But doing things on margin or. I don't even know how much.

[Julian]

Money. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Claire. 150.

[Julian]

Million. Significant funding to Nexium organization. Eventually contributing about 150 million to the group and its leader, Keith Ranieri. She served as the operations director and her father, Edgar Bronfman to the group. But the relationship fractured when he learned a large low interest loan she made to Ranieri and was informed the group was a cult. So he. He realized that. Yeah, she was just. He was. His daughter was being used to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Funnel.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Interesting. Yeah. So she and Sarah were. Sarah actually ran the New York City Center. Sarah was her sister. So Sarah also became a green sash and ran the New York City Center. Was actually right near where I'm staying with Sara in. In the city for. Which is super trippy because we spent a lot of time.

[Julian]

There. Yeah. Don't go walking on mushrooms near.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. Yeah, no, Stayed away from that area. So. Yeah, the Bron sisters were. I mean, every. Almost every cult has an heiress. You know, I'm not sure if you've studied Osho Baguan Raj a little.

[Julian]

But can you provide some background for people who aren't familiar with that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Documentary? Yeah. Wild Wild Country. Bhagwan Osho was a. An Indian guru who was like, you know, the Keith renary of the 80s and had people move for miles around to join this community, which on the outside, just like next AM looked great until it wasn't. But anyway, we interviewed a woman named Aaron Robbins. She's the heir to the Baskin Robbins fortune, and she gave all her money to.

[Julian]

Him. You know, it is one of the things that makes it so believable. And I mean, not just believable. We know it happens. But the reason it makes a lot of sense that things like that would happen is because we're talking about the kids who are inheriting all this stuff through no fault of their own. But it's, it's not money they earned. You know, it's a family fortune. They grow up in opulence. They struggle to have a purpose. They don't feel like they've earned any significance. So they view. I'm just looking at the best I can here. I would imagine they view the money that they've been in that they inherit as a tool for them to buy that influence that they can then say they're doing something good with it. So they are perhaps, crazy as it sounds, maybe even more susceptible to organizations that either border on cults or like this are full blown cults because those are the prime type of parasitic endeavors that are going to look for a target like that to make them feel like they're important because that's all they ever.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wanted. Yeah. And, and Keith actually gave that to Claire. He, I think he made her the CFO or not CEO, but basically gave her a lot of power. And I think that's something that she really needed and enjoyed because she was like kind of a, like a, I don't know, she didn't have a lot of friends. You know, she was kind of a, you know, a horse. She was like. Her friends were.

[Julian]

Horses.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. You know, and she were. I know. I, I feel actually, I feel really sad for her and, and a lot of people in. I seem didn't like her and we didn't actually get along. But I, you know, nobody signed up for this. Like she didn't sign up for that. I didn't like, you know, Keith's the real bad guy here. She got roped. Roped.

[Julian]

In. Yeah. I, I, I have, I definitely have empathy for that. And she ended up going down.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Too, cuz she's actually fresh.

[Julian]

Out. Yeah, she did. She did like five years or six years or something like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. Yeah. She just got out of prison so. And is still a believer by the way, as far as I know.

[Julian]

She still believes in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Keith. Yep. That's why she got such a high prison sentence because she refused to renounce.

[Julian]

Him.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Whoa. Yeah. The, and the judge said that like you have not like Allison Mack was like I made a mistake. I screwed S. By the way, for the audience. Smallville actress Allison Mack was one of the famous or you know, famous ish actresses that was sort of like the one of the people that helped Keith with the building of the harem later and Doss, which we'll get to. But she was like, I made a mistake. This is the biggest mistake. I regret this. I believe something I shouldn't have. And, you know, Keith is a bad person. She refused to do that. And as far as I know, is still a.

[Julian]

Believer. And even after.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Prison. Yeah, even after.

[Julian]

Prison. I. I gotta look at it more and see her individually. But, you know, it's wrong that she'd ever be a believer in that, in that guy or in any of this. But there's a part of me that. That has empathy for the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Brainwashing.

[Julian]

Yeah. You know, like, clearly. Clearly, if at this point that is the case and she still, like, kind of believes leaves, she was successfully 1000%.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Brainwashed. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She. I mean, just like I said, everyone's dangling the thing. She. First it was to get help with her show jumping, but then, like you said, she wanted to make an impact. She wanted to use her money to do good in the world, and she really thought that this was the.

[Julian]

Thing. Yeah. Now, when. When you came in and you started doing. We were talking about you would go teach on the weekends down in Tacoma or Seattle or la, wherever it might be, and then you'd go out to Vanguard Week, like, you know, for 10 days in Albany. Maybe go out there once or twice a year total over, like, I guess. When did you get in? 06, did you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Say? Then. Oh, five. And I didn't become a proctor. Which is the orange sash, which is the level that you can get paid for being, like, a facility. It's like, basically when your career path.

[Julian]

Starts.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Took me four years to get.

[Julian]

There. Okay, so let's go.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There.

[Julian]

Yeah. Once you. Once you finally get to proctor, how did you that. How did that conversation come up that you were going to do this and when you agreed to do that, did you have to spend more time in Albany and did you have to give up acting? For the most part.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Around the. Around that time is probably when I started to prioritize ESP or Nexium for overacting. And that was something that happened slowly over time. They had you do, like a values hierarchy. You know, what are the most important things to you? Which was actually really helpful for me. Oh, thanks. Was actually really helpful for me as somebody who has trouble making decisions and anxiety around that. If it was like, I'm gonna do this movie or, you know, take this training. If acting, which is what started was the highest value, then I would do that. But slowly, over time, NXIVM and my personal growth became the highest value. So if it was going to a training to learn how to do XYZ technique, you know, becoming an EMP was one of the things I was trying to do, which is a exploration of meaning practitioner. All the acronyms same as Scientology. I would, like. I missed, like, two of my best friends weddings, first trainings that, like, that's one of the biggest regrets of my whole time. There is. Is missing. Missing those because it was like, well, you know, these are friends that aren't. You know, they don't share values with you, so why would you do that over your growth? You know? And so that's how those kind of decisions were.

[Julian]

Made. They pit you against your personal.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Life.

[Julian]

Yeah. And make them seem like, yeah, but you. So you valued. I don't want to twist your words. I want to make sure I'm repeating what you said there. So correct me if I'm wrong. You valued being told what to do if it made sense and actually meant progression for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You. I guess. Yeah. My personal values hierarchy shifted over time. Time. And that wasn't something I was super conscious of. I think subconsciously, I realized that if I wanted to keep going and I did, I was fully on board with the stripe path and getting to the next level. That if I wanted to go to the next level, it had to be my highest priority. The people who were, like, choosing, you know, their family, you know, their grandfather's birthday over V week, you know, well, they weren't really committed. So I wanted to be committed. And this is where I think my desire to be special and my desire to be. Be a part of things and belong and, like, get the gold stars of the ranking really motivated me and blinded me to what was actually.

[Julian]

Important. Yeah. You used the same phrase a little bit ago that you used when you were describing growing up and getting good grades. You're like, I wanted to be a good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Girl. Good girl. Yeah. Yeah. I was so right for the. For the stripe path and all the things that it was supposed to be. And, you know, the special thing is something that I think a lot of women struggle with. Is it. You know, it's a part of that, like, the love language thing as well. It's to. To feel acknowledged and to. Yeah.

[Julian]

Affirmed. Would they tell you, good job, or you're doing great and make you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Feel.

[Julian]

Yeah. Is that something your parents didn't do much growing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Up? Ironically, if anything, I think my mother did a lot of that. Like, I was Very. Like, everything I did was great. You know what I mean? And she's very supportive. Like, like unbelievable supportive.

[Julian]

Yeah. It can go either way. It has to be hard one way or the other. Either you're never told or you're. You're told all the time. Because then you crave.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It.

[Julian]

Yes. In either.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Direction. Either direction. And no fault to her. Like my.

[Julian]

Mom. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Like, I love her and she's always done the best that she could, but I think it was more just. I think it was also like the belonging piece, like, being kind of nerd, being a theater nerd. I was also a late bloomer. So, like, I spent all of my high school until I was like, 16, being looking like I was 11, you know, and then all of a sudden, like, 12th grade, I was like, oh, there she is. You know, and so that was hard. And I never really fit in. I wasn't cool. It wasn't a cool kid. And so I think the building, the community that I just. When I became Proctor in 2009, I basically built. Built a community. Like, I built a. I had a center where I paid, you know, six grand a month rent and 5,000 square feet and I had three training.

[Julian]

Rooms. I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Did. Yeah, I.

[Julian]

Did. Keith didn't pay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. No, I paid.

[Julian]

It. It was your privilege to pay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. It was my privilege. That was his business model. If somebody wanted to open a center, they had to. It was all. I mean, I was the only one. Like Sarah. Sarah Bronfman, heiress Emiliano Salinas is the son of the former president in Mexico. He opened a center there, so, like, everyone else came for.

[Julian]

Money. The president's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Son. Yeah, he was a.

[Julian]

Great. Better in the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cartel. Better than a cartel. Yeah. Yeah. No, he. Low bar, but. So I was. I was proud of myself. But that's part of the problem, though, is I became more and more invested. So I was investing. I. There was a time where I was making really good money, but I was also, like, paying for so many things. Like, I was paying for the rent. I was paying to, like, have admin. I was paying. By this point, I was going more like three or four times times a year. And probably towards the end, it would be like almost every six weeks. Like, I was going a lot by the end, so I was Albany for trainings and all sorts of different.

[Julian]

Things. When you started to make money, though, even though you're paying, like, the rent and the admin and stuff like that, like, what. What are you clearing a month.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In 2009, I don't know what I was. I don't know what I was clearing, but I remember I was getting like 20 grand.

[Julian]

Checks.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Julian]

Yeah. So then you have.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Expenses. Yeah, you have expenses. So I don't, I don't. I don't.

[Julian]

Remember. I mean, probably clearing ten grand, something like that. Yeah, five or ten money back then for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sure. Yeah. Way better than acting too. That was the other thing. Like, you know, I can. I can work and. And I basically, I was a producer. I was like. I was like, before we even had the space, I would rent a hotel room, I would fly somebody in, I would organize the food and make it better than the breakfast that I had at my five days. I wanted it to be. I want it to be a little sexier. Like, I wanted to make it my way. And I think what was kind of great about the community is that, like, because I was. I wasn't knowing what was going on in Albany. I just. I just pulled what was good from it. And like, did that put on performance too?

[Julian]

Yeah. Yes, that makes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sense. They gotta put it on performance. And I was a green sash. And I was. I was like the mother welcoming everybody.

[Julian]

Yeah. I don't say that as a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Negative. No, no, I know. It actually really catered to my.

[Julian]

Strengths.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Because I. And I eventually learned how to present the material. In the early days, when I was doing an information night, I would bring Mark up. Cause he was the director of what the bleep. And I kind of piggybacked on that. Like, everyone knew what the bleep. And I. I'm. Who am I? And he would do these information nights. And we kind of grew that way. And Mark and I became business partners. I forgot to mention. So he and.

[Julian]

I. That was acceptable.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Within. Yeah, like we. We decided to open up Vancouver LA together. So he was more doing.

[Julian]

La. Business partners. Within the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Organization. Yeah, within the organization. Okay. I thought you went outside. No, no, no, no. Yeah, no, we were. Because I couldn't open the center as a proctor alone. I had to have a green oversight, so I had to have a green sash oversight. And by the now, Mark was a green sash, so he was sort of like overseeing me, but I was like on the ground. So it's together. It was our center. But like, does that make.

[Julian]

Sense? Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So. And I was listening to one of your other episodes, I forget which, about how the founder had to be on the wall. What episode was that the founder had to be on? Picture of the.

[Julian]

Founder. Was it a Scientology.

[Sarah Edmondson]

One? Yeah, Scientology. Yeah. Elrond Hubbard is On the.

[Julian]

Wall. Probably Jenna.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Maybe. Yeah. And so we had pictures of Nancy and Keith on the wall, these little frames. But most. I know, I know. Oh my.

[Julian]

God. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And. And they. Most people in Vancouver never met them unless they went to Vanguard Week or went do level two training, which is all the higher level stuff. But most people just came and worked on their goals and did the. It was like a gym membership for your. For your.

[Julian]

Growth. Yeah. You know how there's the psychology in the power of like high level business or politics where it's like, no, you come to me. Yeah, right. Where they're like, no, no, he's got to fly here. We're meeting here and doing that. They. They seem to have that with the added layer of also. By the way, if you come to us, we might not even come into the room. Yeah, you might not even. But if we do, like, you were special that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Day. Oh.

[Julian]

Yeah. We pick there. There's an aura that they put around themselves. A deify, a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Deification.

[Julian]

Yeah. If you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Will. I remember the first one of the first times I was in Albany and we were supposed to have a meeting that Keith was. I don't remember what the project was, but I was pulled into some project and we were waiting to hear from Keith and it was like we had to keep our phones on into the night. And I'm like, I'm going to bed, I'm turning my phone off. And they're like, Keith could call anytime. It could be 2am you need to be available. And I was like, I don't. That's not like. And I got in shit for that because I was more attached to my comfort than.

[Julian]

My. That's a no.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. That's a major.

[Julian]

No.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Know. Yeah. I. I mean the people who are still involved and who believe that like Keith is good and I'm bad would say that I never like work through my. Because of things like that still.

[Julian]

Involved the guy sitting in a maximum security prison for the rest of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Time. FBI planet evidence. So it's not.

[Julian]

Real. So they're still like running an underground rush of, Of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nexium. Yeah. There's no center here anymore, but there's people who are walking around who very much still believe in it and think that I'm a.

[Julian]

Suppressive. I'm. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That is the case. I mean at this point, like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, and in Mexico, I believe in Monterey they're fully still doing the curriculum. I don't think they call it Nexium. I think that'd be really bad.

[Julian]

But. Yeah, that'd be bad for the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Brand.

[Julian]

Yeah. Call it something else. Open it up as enlightenment you or something like that. Enlightenment you if it's in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mexico.

[Julian]

Yeah. Wow. So. So you start making money. You're a proctor. What color sash is that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Again?

[Julian]

Orange. Orange sash. All right. And now you're on the sash.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, you're okay with it now? The sash means everything to.

[Julian]

Me. It means.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Everything. Yeah. The orange, like, what I had to. The hoops I jumped through to get to orange sash made it mean so much to me. So in my five day when people were like, oh, this is weird. Like, I know how you.

[Julian]

Feel.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. I felt the same way. But what I found was now I have a Sasha now.

[Julian]

When. When did you meet Nippy? Your.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Husband? I met him, I think, in 2006. So.

[Julian]

I. Did you meet him at V.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Week? I met him in the center in Albany. Yeah. And then we did. When. Then we went up to V Week.

[Julian]

Together. What drew you to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Him? His. A lot of things. Just. I'm laughing because when I first met him, he was kind of goofy. He's kind of like. He's like, he's super smart, but he's also the class clown. Like, he's the one who's always making people laugh. And when I met him, he's like, had. Had his pants pulled up really high and he was, like, doing some impression of somebody. And I just was like, who's this hot guy who's like, also really goofy? Like, he just really made me laugh. And he's very. Still makes me laugh. Very funny, very smart. He's a history major and he was, you know, doing the work. You don't see a lot of, like, alpha males who are doing internal work on themselves to be better. You know what I.

[Julian]

Mean? Like, oh, he was really taking the curriculum.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Seriously. Yeah, he was doing the curriculum. Him. But he was also, like, you know, I don't know. There was. There was just something keep in mind. When I met him, I was still with my ex and he was with somebody. So I. When I met him, I thought he was hot and, like, funny and all that stuff, but I wasn't. Like, we didn't date for a while after that because we were both with people. And then there came a time when we were both single and we.

[Julian]

Were like, oh, so you were both with people when you met, but you were hanging out because you're in the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Organization?

[Julian]

Yeah. And. And wait, I'm sorry, were you with someone who was in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There? Yeah. So.

[Julian]

Okay. Was he with someone who was in there with him?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And the guy that. The filmmaker that I told you about that we started with and we met. Mark Vicente. Yeah, we did. We were together for three years, and then we were together for three years in Nexium together. The guy that I.

[Julian]

Started.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And then I was going up the stripe path, and he was not. And that became a.

[Julian]

Problem. Oh, power.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Dynamics. Yeah. And, you know, my coach would say things like, well, you know, if he's not growing or taking it seriously, like, maybe you should consider, like, do you really have a match of values? And, you know, we grew apart breaking you up. Yeah. And truthfully, it's. We were not a good fit.

[Julian]

And. Yeah, but still, there's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Something. No, no, it's gross. And we laugh. We. We can. We're both fully aware. And I do believe that Keith was, like, instructing my coach to, you know, separate.

[Julian]

Us. Did you. I'm gonna come back to that being a second. But you had said earlier, like, you didn't even, like, you never really liked Keith that much in particularly, but he was this thing. He put together a good program, so I respected him. You.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Respected. I respected him. I had him. I, I, I, I had his m. If, if his mind really did create what I had gotten so much value out of, I've respected.

[Julian]

That. And so you didn't. And you didn't have any level of attraction to him or anything? Like, never thought of it that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Way. No, definitely not at the beginning. There were times towards the end when he had been cleaned up, up that I, I saw him differently and.

[Julian]

Felt under a spell, almost a little.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Bit. Yeah, there were, There were times when, like, he would pay attention or, like, he would take. He would take my hand. He did this with everybody. He would, like, take your hands and really look at you and, like, be with you. And I remember being like, oh, I'm getting. I'm, like, getting over my issue. I'm getting closer with, like. I, I wanted to be closer to him because I thought he was so smart, and I really looked up to him, but I always had felt that distance, and I noticed that other people were, Were closer with him. I just thought that, again, like, was my limitation. So by the end, I feel like he got. He got in there more with me, but still not fully as we know. You know what I.

[Julian]

Mean? He would also. I, I just remembered this. I want to bring this up because it's, you know, the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Kissing. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. He would kiss everyone on the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Lips, including Big Red.

[Julian]

Flag. Including the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Dudes. Yeah. Nippy never did that. Nippy never did.

[Julian]

That. Nippy never kissed him on the lips. Did that hurt him in the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Organization? Nippy didn't do a lot of Nippy. Like, they would have said that he had defiance.

[Julian]

Issues. Get over here and suck my tongue. Yeah. Or you're.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Gay. Yeah. No, he would be like. I'm like, this is like one of my first memories of him before we were even dating. Like, as coaches, you had to like, clean up after a training. And I was like, you know, vacuuming and cleaning the toilets and like, I'm so good. Right. And he, like, took a bag of garbage and left and was like, what the. Like, stick around. And like. But he's like, I'm not gonna. You know, like, he, he had way better.

[Julian]

Boundaries. Classic toxic.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mouth. Yeah, he still takes out the garbage, but, like, he had better boundaries than most people and he was targeted in a different way and, you know, it affected him and that he didn't get promoted in the same way, but he was like, who cares? He. His. His joke was cut my pay because he wasn't making any money. So he was like, who.

[Julian]

Cares? And was he still holding on to the whole, like, aspiring actor thing, like, through this? Because they had promised him this role that at some point it's going to come, the script's going to get rewritten and I'm going to do it. So he's like, it's like the carrot on the stick.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Form. Yeah. And at a certain point he kind of realized that it might not happen. And he started like, personal training and doing like, you know, odd jobs around Albany. But, like, you know, the. A lot of us like, that were coaches could take training and like, the trainings were expensive. Like, level two trainings were like six to eight grand grant. And. And for people like us, they needed. They needed to run the training and so they would have. They would get somebody like Nippy to like, staff the training. So he was just going into training, into training, into training, but not paying for it, but helping to run it. You know what I.

[Julian]

Mean?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So he had stuff to do and sort of waiting for the film and they'd like, have, you know, drew script read and then like, you know, and. But meanwhile I'm out in Vancouver and I'm like flying him out because I'm remember, I. I'm staffing, so I'm like, oh, come to Vancouver and come, come to la. So we start. When we started dating, it was like we would see each other quite.

[Julian]

Often. How did you guys start dating, like, because obviously the two of you get out of your relationships. But, like, what. What led to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That? He just put it out there one day. He's like, I think we should get hook up. Especially what it was, it was really no game. It was just like, let's, you know, we'd been flirting for. Together for, you know, flirting for years. And it was like, like, let's. What's this about? And I was like, well, sure, let's check it.

[Julian]

Out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And. But that was that. But it was. Started out very light because he was in New York and I was in Vancouver and, you know, it was kind of fun. And, you know, I got to, you know, see him during a training and. But I really appreciated having somebody like him who, again, like a real guy's guy who was also willing to, like, be vulnerable and talk about his emotions and, you know, stuff like that. So it escalated pretty.

[Julian]

Quickly. That's interesting. Yeah, so he's. He's a fascinating guy in the sense that he's in this thing. He's in it because of the carrot on the stick of, like, being an actor. That makes all the sense in the world. But you have like a brilliant Ivy League quarterback, you know, in shape, like kind of, I'm gonna do it my way, not give a fuck kind of dude. But then he's also like, emotionally in touch and at the same time, like, he's cool with the power Diet, at least for what he's trying to do. He's cool with the power dynamic dynamics in an organization like this. So when you guys start dating, like, obviously you're having success. That's not a problem for him. He's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cool. No, he's happy with.

[Julian]

It. But, like, how would you guys talk about the organization? Did you guys. I'm talking even before you're married, you got married in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

2010? Yeah, no, no, we started getting dating. We got married in.

[Julian]

2013.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Julian]

Yeah. All right. So before you get married, when you're. When you're dating, in your conversations about Nexium, did you guys ever, like, broach the topic of like, hey, some of this is weird. Or even say things like, are we in a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cult? We never said, are we in a cult? But definitely, if there's anyone that I could talk to about things I had problems with is with Nippy and Mark Vicente, actually, to a.

[Julian]

Degree.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Julian]

Yeah. For Nippy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Though. Yeah.

[Julian]

Yes. That he becomes your husband. What kinds of conversations would you guys.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like? Claire, because she was. She was. I was a higher rank than her but she. Claire.

[Julian]

Bronfman. Oh, right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. But she was sort of in charge of me in terms of, like, we'd have these meetings that she would run, and I just found her, like, unbearable. And she just was like, there was just. There were certain things that would be pro. Like, she would raise the rate on Ethos, which is the ongoing gym membership version of nxivm. Like.

[Julian]

She. Gym.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Membership? Yeah. So we. So we had like the five day training and then we had Ethos, which. Which is like $300 a month. People would come and they take classes. Like a gym.

[Julian]

Membership? Yeah. They get the steam room.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Too. I wish we had a steam room. I wanted to have a sauna put in. But goals. But it was like $182 a month, and then she raised it to $300 a month, and it was a big jump. And I have, like, all these, you know, struggling actors in Vancouver. And this is actually in the book. She was like, you need to. You need to find. She had a British accent, like a pseudo British accent, because she was raised part time in Britain. And she's like, like, your clientele. I'm gonna do Terrible accent. Forget it. I'm not gonna do it. But she basically said to me that I need to. To basically recruit richer people is what I needed to.

[Julian]

Do. You're recruiting the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Peasants. Yeah, exactly. Pretty much. That's a very good accent. Mine was.

[Julian]

Terrible. My British accent's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not. I can do a good British accent, but I can't do her British accent because it was like the subtle one that it was, you know, I can do a proper.

[Julian]

One. But anyway, she wasn't speaking like the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Kings.

[Julian]

No.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. You know, so I remember being like, what the. You've never. Like, the reason she was lower rank is she couldn't recruit. She was terrible at recruiting because she didn't have any friends. And so I'm recruiting, but she's like, giving me advice on how I should do it. And I'm like, I'm bringing in more money into the company than anybody. Like, why are you handcuffing me? I always just felt like there were. There were so many problems, especially in the last quarter. I look at my time in Nexium and quarters, I was, like, struggling to get to Proctor. And then, like. Like the golden years and then the demise, you know, kind of kind of thing. And in that last section, there were so many problems. She stopped paying us. I was. I was called a field trainer. And so I. Because I opened up an area and I was in Charge of all the sales people. And I was filling the trainings and, like, changed the commission structure so we stopped making money. We stopped anytime I had a, like a problem. Like, hey, can we get paid for the work that we did so we can re, like, pay for all the. Like, like we. You know, I'm paying for things out of pocket. When you get reimbursed. Well, that's me being entitled, which is a Nexium term for like, I'm not being grateful and I'm not paying tribute. And like, it's just constant.

[Julian]

Gas. Cough it up.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Seagrams. Yeah.

[Julian]

Exactly. Come.

[Sarah Edmondson]

On. Oh, and she was notorious for, like, paying people or not paying people at all. Like, she. Her concept of money was so am I. It's funny. I'm even scared to talk because she's out of jail now. Can we take a bathroom.

[Julian]

Break? Yes. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. So did you ever. As you were rising up and bringing people into the organization, basically as a recruiter, first of all, did you feel yourself like, improving as they had personally, as they had told you you were going to. Did you feel like you were actually getting the benefits of the program? Or do you feel like you making money and recruiting people into it was like. Like a fake fill in for you actually making. Making yourself feel like you were.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Improving? I think it's probably both. I think that I was actually like the true part of the stripe path in terms of evolving your issues so that you could, like, raise your self esteem and go to the next level. Remember, I talked about options? I think there's some truth in that. In that, like, if you feel resourceless in a situation, you feel kind of stuck and you get depressed. And I felt like. And I think I also had a little bit of this before, naturally. And Nexium kind of expanded on it. Like, I'm the kind of person who. It's like, if I can't get into a restaurant, like, I'm gonna get into the restaurant. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna take no for an answer. Right. I'm gonna call and do my thing. Which, you know, Nippy loves when it's to his.

[Julian]

Benefit. I could.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Totally. Yeah. He's like, go to the front and get our upgrade. Right? That's right. Right. It doesn't like it when it's him. Right. When I'm like, but you can we just. You said you were gonna, like, can you. You know, so I. I have a tendency to nag. I'm working on that because I'm, you know, I don't take no for an answer. So that's. That's what made me such a good. Why are you.

[Julian]

Laughing? I. I didn't say.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Anything. Okay, so why are we talking about.

[Julian]

This? We're talking about this for whether or not you felt like you had actually been improving. Yeah, no, I think it was like kind of hidden by.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The. I think there's a lot of things and we'll never. No, because I was at the stage in my life where, you know, I had friends who were around me say, like, you were always going to be successful at whatever you did. So, like, maybe that's true. I don't know. But I was doing. Using these tools and I was saying I was successful because of the tools. So that's one of the things that a lot of cults do is they. They take. They take full responsibility for any success you have, any failures you have, that's on you. Right, right. So I was like, I'm so successful. I'm doing so great. And it's because of this program. And that's kind of how I tended to recruit. I just lived my life. I mean, I did reach out and like, you know, call people and things like that, but I wasn't a major hard sell person. I was like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. And if you want a piece of it, like, come check out the next information night. I wasn't like cold calling people, you.

[Julian]

Know. How many, how many people were in Nexium BY like total.

[Sarah Edmondson]

10? Yeah. By 2010, I don't know. But by the time I left in 2017, there's two numbers and we don't know for sure, but it's between 17,000 and 20,000 thousand. Whoa.

[Julian]

Whoa. I didn't realize it got that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Big. I mean, it got. Think, but think about 20 years. That's a thousand people a year. Internationally is actually pretty small in terms of like Scientology or any of these other.

[Julian]

Groups. Yeah, yeah. But they've been around a lot longer. Yeah, it's a full blown religion. There's a lot more people involved. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Huge. But I will. I would say at any vwe week would be where any of the most dedicated. Anyone who's currently active in the organization would be at V week and it was never more than 400 people. So I'd say at any given time there was no more than 400 to a thousand people who are currently.

[Julian]

Active. Active with.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. Yeah. Because many people came through and took a five day and then pieced out of those two 17 to 20,000 people. It could have been someone who just did that, and then they were gone. And those people are, like, for the most part, pretty unscathed. And many of those people are really happy with what they did because they didn't, you.

[Julian]

Know.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Immerse themselves and do what I.

[Julian]

Did. What made you an effective recruiter, you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Think? I've. From what I've been told, from people who knew me before, during, and after, or like, you know, there's something that I've talked about with people on our podcast who, like, ex members, is that I was, you know, I was walking the walk, and I was. I didn't pressure people to do it. Like, a lot of people were trained to kind of do the thing that was done to me. Like, well, would remember what I said with my field trainer who was like, you know, you want to be the master of your own ship? I would. I would sort of meet with people if they wanted to learn more, and I'd be like, what's. What do you. What are your goals? Like, what are you working on? And people would tell me, and I'd say, like, you know, you're here in your life and you're trying to get here. What's stopping you? And they'd tell me, you know, I procrastinate or I'm afraid to take the next steps or whatever. I'm like, well, we have a curriculum that's going to help you do that. This is how much it costs. And I would just walk them through the process. And sometimes people would be into it, sometimes they wouldn't. And I'd be like, yeah, if you're not. If it's not for you, like, you know, you've got my number. And I think the soft approach for. For most people is what worked, and I really believed in it. And I had. I'd had such a good experience. And to answer your earlier question, like, you know, yes, I was using the tools and I was happier, but also I was making money. And. And I. I had physical proof of, like, you know, I had a Honda Civic, and now I have a Mini.

[Julian]

Cooper.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. You know, like, moving up in the world. Moving up. I have a nice car, I've got a nice apartment, I'm traveling a lot. And my life looked pretty exciting because it was. I did fly on the Bron Jet once. That was.

[Julian]

Cool. Bron Jet. What was that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like? It was amazing. I mean, have you ever been on a private.

[Julian]

Bus? No, I'm after the Whole Epstein thing. I'm not into.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. Yeah.

[Julian]

There'S. I. I don't. I don't know what's going on on the I'llly commercial. I've no problem with.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. I agree with you. It did spoil me for life. After you've been on a. We flew to Alaska to do a Janess training. Janess was the one. The women's program that came. Came later. Yeah, Janess. So, Nancy, if you hit that.

[Julian]

Up. A mutual friend of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ours. Family did what? Wait, you know someone who did.

[Julian]

Janesse. Wait, hold on. Turn your mic on there, buddy. Ours off. Yeah, yeah, turn yours on. Turn mine on. Yeah, there you go. Now we.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Can. Who did you know that did.

[Julian]

Jeunesse? Well, I won't name them because we are on a public forum, but a mutual friend of ours, his whole family.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Did. What? Yeah, but not.

[Julian]

Nexium. Not Nex. Not nxivm. But his whole family did Jeunesse. Yeah. And then got one of my buddies involved too, here in New York. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Well, you're gonna have to tell me off camera. Cause I pretty much knew everybody that did.

[Julian]

It. Oh, yeah. We could definitely talk off camera.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Then. Dying to know.

[Julian]

Know. Yeah, I'm dying to say it on air. Honestly, folks, I'm dying. We'll protect identities there, but.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nonetheless. Oh, my.

[Julian]

God. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Small.

[Julian]

World. Listen, it touches everybody. Yeah, apparently. But. So I.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wasn'T. Nobody's asked me that, by the.

[Julian]

Way. Do that. Don't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Laugh. Nobody's asked me that. What made me a good recruiter.

[Julian]

As. I mean, but like, that was your life, though, you know what I mean? Like, you had a job day to day, and you were obviously successful at it. And it sounds like, you know, you were saying Nippy didn't hold that against you at all. Like. Like he was happy to see you successful with that. He was still trying to do whatever he was doing. But you're rising up to this thing and you're developing. You're bringing all these people in. And, you know, you had said earlier it was situational vulnerability for a lot of people, that's where they would get them, which makes all the sense in the world. But, you know, if we're really honing in on those 400 people that would go to V week, Right. So the people who are really committed and really in. Were there any common threads besides that in those.

[Sarah Edmondson]

People? The people who are really.

[Julian]

Committed. Yeah. Like, that would. That would make them vulnerable to doing that, minus the situational.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Vulnerability. Honestly, it's so case by Case I would say, like, even for somebody I don't know, I'm trying to, like, take a step back there for a second, minus the situational vulnerability. I think the main through line for people to go to something like V Week is people who really also loved community. You know, there was a real rah, rah, kind of camaraderie, summer camp vibe, you know, like Burning man, but for. There's no costumes and no sand. There was a. There was a real excitement about, like, the. The idea was. And it's so cringy now, but, like, spending 10 days. What. What could humanity be like? This is what Keith wanted for his birthday, by the way. He didn't want any things because he's a renunciate. Right. He wanted 10 days where people came together, kind to each other, living their most joyful lives. So we'd do yoga and we were doing, you know, having dance parties, and Keith would do forums and Nancy would teach class, and we'd swim down by the lake. I love to take off and just go, like, sunbathe by the lake. Because I didn't. I didn't know this at the time, but I actually really didn't enjoy the curriculum, especially at V Week. It was so beautiful out. I wanted to, like, you know, just be by the.

[Julian]

Water.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. My own little private rebellions that I wasn't aware of. Of that I was.

[Julian]

Doing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Suppressive. Yeah, it was.

[Julian]

Suppressive. Very.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Suppressive. What. What. What I realized is that I was really good at the good girl mask, but actually I had a lot of internal. Like, I was breaking the rules, but, like, I'd be like, yeah, I entered my data, but, like, I.

[Julian]

Didn'T. But.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I. Because they didn't check. It's not like Scientology, where they're really, really rigid about measuring everything. They were. It was like, you just. Yeah, And I would be like, yeah, I did that. I did that. And then I just do my own thing. Thing. So I was like an external Good girl. Does that make.

[Julian]

Sense?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And I started to break the rules more and more, especially towards the end, because I was like. Parts of me were like, well, that's like, just. It just got worse. It got. There were so many. And to answer your other question about, like, being able to confide and nippy about it, we were. We. We would complain to each other. I couldn't complain up rank because I would be gaslit, and I couldn't complain down because that would be bad, bad, bad leadership. You know what I mean? Like, I had to do the. Have you heard the term toxic.

[Julian]

Positivity?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Maybe. It's like, huge in a lot of things, like the Mormon Church and MLMs, like, you know, boss, babe, like, everything's great. I'm living my best life. And, like, I had to kind of toe that line. And I didn't really realize how unhappy I was towards the end. And I could confine a Nippy in.

[Julian]

That. Were you married before Nippy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Too?

[Julian]

No. You.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Weren'T?

[Julian]

No. You were just in a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Relationship. I was in a relationship. I thought we were going to get.

[Julian]

Married. Right. That was the one you moved in with and you're like, we're not doing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This. The guy that I started next game with. So I did three. Yeah, yeah.

[Julian]

Yeah. Now. So you guys eventually get married. Did you have a wedding, like, with all the cult.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Members? Yes.

[Julian]

Yeah. Was anyone beside. I mean, your mom was technically in it, but was your. Was anyone. Anyone not from the cult, like, from your.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Life? Oh, yeah, my family was in it. In fact, there's a picture in here that my mom was there, my.

[Julian]

Childhood friends, stuff like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That. Yep. And they thought it was very weird. They told me later. I thought it was a great wedding at the time, but everybody who wasn't in Nexium was like, this is very strange. Yeah, this is a picture of my wedding. There's Lauren. So Nancy's.

[Julian]

Daughter. Nancy's daughter was the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Officiant. Yeah. Marrying Nippy. And I, I. And she did. She did the vows that were written by.

[Julian]

Keith. Oh, he wrote the. Have you redone the wedding.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Since? Yeah, we did. We renewed our vows.

[Julian]

Yeah. That's good. You. You deserve a do.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Over. Thank you. I did a do over in the place that I wanted to get married, which I couldn't have because it conflicted with V Week. Like, I wanted to. I wanted to get married on Hornby.

[Julian]

Island. Oh, you got married during V Week at V.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Week? No, no, no, we got married. Our big party that I just showed you a picture from was September 28th, and we chose that date because it was the only weekend that was free in the NXIVM calendar because we wanted Nancy to come and Lauren to come, so I had to make sure they were free. Where I really wanted to get married was on Hornby island, which is, like, where I spent my summers. And this is magical hippie island. Anyway, I renewed my vows there and rewrote new.

[Julian]

Ones.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Good. Fuck you.

[Julian]

Vanguard. That's right. Don't call him Vanguard. Don't give.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Him. No, it's because we used to say thank you Vanguard. So when I say fuck you.

[Julian]

Did you have to say that in your vows? Like, did he write that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In. No, he didn't say that in our.

[Julian]

Vows. It didn't say.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Vanguard. No.

[Julian]

No. What. What were the vows like? Like, I pledged to chain my loyalty to you and Nexium, which is the code of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Humanity. Like, they were kind of world salady, but they were actually. I. I'm almost positive he didn't write them because they were. They were. They were pretty. I mean, I remember liking them at the time. They were, you know, about true love and upholding each other and blah, blah, blah. Do you want to pull them up? They're probably up.

[Julian]

There. Oh, they're out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There.

[Julian]

Maybe. Let's try the Sarah Edmondson vows from wedding. It's probably gonna pull up the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Vow. Oh, yeah. Ironically, I don't know if it's out there. I could get them. I bet Mark Vicente could send them to us. Because Mark Vicente and Bonnie, his wife, used them first. He wrote there. He wrote them for her. For.

[Julian]

Them. And then you guys got the plagiarized.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Version. Yeah, we got to use them again. We just. Permission. I.

[Julian]

Know. Keith.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Or. Yeah, Keith and Mark. I asked Mark, too, if you wouldn't mind. Now it's not coming up. I will. I'll find them and I'll email them to you. Yeah, that's just if you're.

[Julian]

Curious. But I am.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Curious. They were. They weren't. They were. They were nice. I mean, I remember thinking. But, like, now I'm sure he, like, this is before chat gtp. But I'm sure he, like, found them and plagiarized.

[Julian]

Them. Yeah, but he.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Did. He didn't do anything original.

[Julian]

Yeah. Were you. Would you describe yourself after you got married as, like, did you feel happy in life? Yeah, at the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Time.

[Julian]

Yeah. Everything seemed normal to you. You're successful. You're marrying the man you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Love. Yeah, that. That part was great. But this is around the time when things were becoming strained in the organization. I said, we called it an organization. We didn't call it a cult. We called it an.

[Julian]

Organization. Yeah, of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Course. It was. It was. The nippy was. It would say the morale was.

[Julian]

Low. And this is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

2013. I would say 2013. 2014 is probably around the time that things started to go. Go down. This is also, like, people were getting sick. Like, I showed you that picture. That was 2014. That was the first.

[Julian]

Funeral. Oh, you had never been to a funeral of a cult.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Member? Yeah, a lot of people. There was, like, eight people at A time that had cancer, I think so the people. The two people that died, I believe it was poisoning. Multiple. Keith, Nancy, he had. Had cancer. Karen had all these women around.

[Julian]

Him.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Salzman. Yeah. She had cancer, too, but she beat it. It's a lot of. I think that he was trying to poison a lot of people. At the time, I thought there was something in the water, but now I think it was something more.

[Julian]

Nefarious. Yeah. Something else was going on.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There. Yeah. But the things. Things were there was just.

[Julian]

Like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's. It's the most painful part of the book, actually, because it's so. It's so like. It's a slog. It became. It went from being, like, really joyful and fun and exciting and kind of glamorous to, like. Keith started a new program called Ultima, where it was all. There was a acting program, there was a media program, There was a, like, a mo. There was all these different classes he started. He wanted all the coaches to come and learn this training, but he basically, like, pulled my entire staff from Vancouver, and I was like, what. What are you doing? Like, this is. And so the things like that. But you couldn't say that. That. Because you wouldn't be, like, suppressive and anti. Tribute and, like. You know what I.

[Julian]

Mean? Yeah. He said, as we outlined earlier, he would set these traps ahead of time to get out in front of things so that you were gaslit into not being able to take.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Action.

[Julian]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Yeah. My. The toxic positivity mixed with the changing of the formats so that you couldn't. Like, we couldn't thrive, you know, and this was supposed to be. We were gonna change the world, but we felt like we were hogtied at every level.

[Julian]

Level.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Little. Little tangent. I'm sure you're aware of.

[Julian]

Lululemon. Love me some Lululemon. Made the world a better.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Place. I'm sure you do. Yeah. Joey as well. Yeah, and me.

[Julian]

Too. Great.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Company. Great company. So that started in Vancouver and the owner, Chip Wilson, who we might.

[Julian]

Have on this podcast, but.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Please. Okay. Well, he. You could ask him. He brought Landmark, which was another personal development program, to the training of Lululemon because he had taken the. That.

[Julian]

Curriculum.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Them.

[Julian]

Okay. Is that like some Nexium.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Landmark? Yeah, Landmark is like Nexium Light. Yeah. There's no branding and.

[Julian]

What? Diet. Diet. Diet next.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Year. Yeah, yeah. There's no branding and there's no. As far as we know, like, Haram. But Warner Earhart, the guy who started it, not Chip, the Werner Earhart, is like, Fully abusive, allegedly, in my opinion. And you can cut this if you want, but there's like, no. Like, we. We've talked to whistleblowers, We've talked to the Nancy Salsman of Land Mark, and she's like, it's a.

[Julian]

Cult. Is Chip.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cool? Chip's cool, yeah. You know, I don't know him super well, but, I mean, I'm sure.

[Julian]

He'S. I'm sure I might get you in here when he's in here, stare him down, get a good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Read. Sure. But she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I mean, like, listen, he started an empire. Like, he's a very successful business person. Right?

[Julian]

Yeah. I got. I got a question that I'm curious about because I noticed you said that with his next program, like, there was an acting program, there was a media program, and I'm kind of noticing that pattern too. Do you think there was a reason why he always seemed to be going after actors, people in media, filmmakers, or was that just kind of a coincidence? Like, were a lot of other people in Nexium actors, or was it across the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Board? I mean, it kind of depended. Like, the. The center in Mexico had more of a. Like the who's who of the. Of politics, just because of who brought in who and who was friends with who. Because it was all word of mouth. We didn't advertise. So when Mark and I got involved. Mark is from Hollywood, and I'm. I have connections through the film industry, like, just sort of how it grew. But I think that Keith really enjoyed that thing. Like, when Nippy left and came back, he was like, oh, when I came back, it was exploded with a bunch of young people. And like, you know, we're actually doing things in the world, you know, and it looked a little bit more. I think Keith wanted that front facing, like, yeah. You know, attractive women and men on the outside who were, you know, doing legitimate things.

[Julian]

And. Good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cover. Yeah, it's good cover.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. All cults have to have.

[Julian]

That.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Yeah, of course.

[Julian]

Yeah. Cover is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Important. Yes. You can't just say, I am going to have a.

[Julian]

Harem. That's right. Okay, we'll bookmark the Chip thing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And. Oh, wait, I have to finish that story. I'll be super.

[Julian]

Quick. Yeah, yeah, finish.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. This long and short of it is that when I. So this is 10 years ago, 11 years ago. I'd just given birth to my son. Nancy Salzman was coming out to all to Vancouver to do a training Because I'd also set up a meeting with Lululemon because I'd heard, I didn't know that Landmark was bad at this point. I thought they, I thought they were subpar version of what we did. So it was just like Lululemon was going to not do Landmark anymore and they were looking for something else. And so I had arranged a meeting with the head of Lululemon, like human development or whatever, to meet with Nancy. And they had a.

[Julian]

Meeting.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Development. Yeah, to have a meeting. And they had a meeting and they totally hit it off. It was great. And the next step for this person was to fly to Albany and do a 16 day training with Keith. Yeah. So basically, basically Keith kiboshed it. Like they were like, let's great, can you come and do a five day. He's like, no, you have to bring your whole team to Albany and do a 16 day training. Never happened. Happened. So I was like, are you kidding me? So that kind of thing like that. Do you see how frustrated I would.

[Julian]

Be?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Right. Like you want to.

[Julian]

Grow. You want to brought something to the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Table.

[Julian]

Yeah. It was there to hit it right off the softball and they didn't do.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It. And there's so many stories like that with a lot of people. A lot of people in New York were Ivy League grads from different schools and they would bring it back to their school and like there would be an opportunity and Keith would be like, no, they're not ethical. We can't do it it or some. There's a lot of like that.

[Julian]

Happening a lot on the bone.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Here.

[Julian]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Where you want to go from here, Julian? There's a lot to.

[Julian]

Cover. There's a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Lot.

[Julian]

Yeah. So thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description.

[Sarah Edmondson]

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