#362 - Area 52 on Bob Lazar, David Grusch, DARPA & Underwater Anomalies | Chris Ramsay

Summary

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Julian Dorey Podcast #362

Area 52 on Bob Lazar, David Grusch, DARPA & Underwater Anomalies | Chris Ramsay
Date: December 4, 2025
Guest: Chris Ramsay
Host: Julian Dorey

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Main Theme Overview

This episode dives deep into the world of UFOs, whistleblowers, and secret government programs, centering heavily on the legacy and claims of Bob Lazar, with thoughtful detours into current whistleblower David Grusch, the challenges of compartmentalized defense research, underwater anomalies, and the cultural context shaping UFO secrecy worldwide. The discussion is grounded by Chris Ramsay, host of the Area 52 podcast and an experienced observer and commentator in UFO circles, who brings first-hand insights, especially regarding Bob Lazar and the dynamics of disclosure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Compartmentalization & Secrecy Culture in UFO Programs

• US vs. China/Russia:

  • US defense projects, especially around UFOs, are highly compartmentalized, with individuals only working on small pieces ("You'd be off with your partner working on propulsion, another team working on metal of the craft or weaponry" – Ramsay, 05:45).
  • In China and Russia, secrets are less compartmentalized and flow to the top leadership more directly, increasing risk of leaks if someone defects but possibly allowing faster technological progress.

• Presidential Plausible Deniability:

  • US presidents often aren't read into UFO programs; plausible deniability protects them from legal exposure and operational security. (07:12)

2. The Bob Lazar Story: First-Hand Reflections

• Meeting Bob:

  • Chris Ramsay recounts spending significant time with Lazar, characterizing him as "an incredibly normal guy—salt of the earth." (12:46)
  • Lazar's recounting is marked by noticeable stress and fear rather than duplicity. (13:05)

• Majestic 12 & The Aztec Crash:

  • Ramsay details discussions with Lazar about "Majestic 12," a secret group supposedly formed post-Roswell to handle UFO recovery and secrecy.
  • The Aztec crash (1948) emerges as a major event: claims of a 100-foot disc, 16 recovered bodies, and secrecy enforced by the military (15:08, 17:35).

• Lazar’s Work at S-4:

  • Recruitment through Edward Teller, working at S-4 on purported alien craft propulsion, including tests with "element 115."
  • Only allowed in the craft once; mostly worked on the reactor and propulsion systems (24:27, 33:28).
  • The environment described as highly stressful, monitored, and adversarial with security constantly threatening and enforcing secrecy.
  • Lazar maintained skepticism about the "blue documents" briefing him on alien origins, hybrids, and religion—believed some was plausible disinfo to trace leaks (21:44).

• Test Flight Anecdotes:

  • Saw a UFO test flight; silent, "went up and went back down." Surprises about radio contact possible across gravity amplifiers (28:24, 29:06).

• Element 115 Experimentation:

  • Described testing involving time dilation effects on candles and possible creation of microscopic black holes—profound implications for physics (31:53).

• Departure and Whistleblowing:

  • Lazar separated after personal issues flagged by security monitoring, leading him to bring friends out to view test flights and ultimately go public with George Knapp for protection (37:00-39:07).
  • Notable that Lazar's academic/professional records "disappeared" after whistleblowing (40:53).

Notable Quotes

• "He gets ... incredibly ... There is, there is stress when he talks about this stuff, but you can tell it stems from a place of fear ... not to an energy of, oh, I’m trying to lie." — Chris Ramsay on Bob Lazar (13:05)
• "If like 10% of it's true ... what the fuck else do we have?" — Julian Dorey (48:39)
• "He's a true whistleblower. He didn't go through some government process ... He came out and said everything that he could and then people crucified him for it." — Ramsay (48:50)

3. Whistleblowers and the Burdens of Disclosure

• Bob Lazar:

  • Seen as the archetypal whistleblower, coming forward despite risk and severe attempts to damage his credibility.

• David Grusch:

  • Ramsay says Grusch's contributions are valuable, but notes both Lazar and Grusch hoped others would corroborate them—and this has rarely happened (49:24).

• Compartmentalization Issues:

  • Modern whistleblowers, thanks to compartmentalization, often have fragmented knowledge and cannot provide whole proof, making their claims both easy to dismiss and difficult to verify (8:27, 53:16).

Notable Quotes

• "That's why what Grush did and what Bob Lazar did—I mean, it takes ... some balls, it takes some guts." — Ramsay (51:34)

4. Government, Media, and Filtering of Testimony

• Destruction of Records:

  • Possible suppression or destruction of records to undermine whistleblowers’ credibility (40:53).

• Media’s Skepticism:

  • Ramsay and Dorey address how mainstream outlets and even documentary filmmakers are vulnerable to both good and misleading sources, complicating the landscape (56:51-58:21).

• Value of Authenticity:

  • Ramsay expresses preference for "salt of the earth" witnesses (farmers, normal people) over government or suit-and-tie sources (54:15).

5. Underwater Anomalies & the Navy’s Role

• Significance of Oceans:

  • Many craft retrievals are believed to have occurred from oceans, whose depths remain largely unexplored (58:59-63:47).
  • UAPs often appear at nuclear and tech test sites, including oceans—suggesting interest in human technological progress.

• Navy vs Air Force:

  • The Navy is proposed as the likely primary custodian of recovered craft—suggested by payment records and operational domains.

6. DARPA, Advanced Technology, and AI

• DARPA’s Potential Reach:

  • Acknowledgement that agencies like DARPA could be decades ahead in technology, potentially mistaken for alien tech (59:31-60:32).

• The AI Question:

  • Discussion around how far government AI developments could secretly be ahead (60:36-61:20).

7. Culture Wars and Disinformation in the UFO Community

• Skepticism Toward Insiders:

  • Both host and guest express consistent skepticism toward government insiders, especially those with counterintelligence backgrounds like Luis Elizondo (64:33–65:38).

• Negative Online Culture:

  • Hostility and polarization within the online UFO community is called out, emphasizing the value in public discussion and open-mindedness (65:44).

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• On Compartmentalization and UFO Secrecy

  "We have compartmentalized ... projects, that if you were to work on a UFO, for instance ... those people would not be allowed to talk to each other."
  — Chris Ramsay (05:40)

• Bob Lazar’s Emotional Response

  "You can tell it stems from a place of fear ... not to an energy of, oh, I, I'm trying to lie. It's more of an energy of like ... I got to talk about this. Like, it's like it conjures up something very, very, very profoundly dreadful in him."
  — Ramsay (13:05)

• Unique Test Details

  "They put a candle beside the reactor ... when they turned the amplifier ... the candle would stop jumping. It would stand still, but it would still emit light, which was impossible to him. So it was like creating time dilation."
  — Ramsay (31:53)

• On Whistleblower Vulnerability

  "That's why what Grush did and what Bob Lazar did. I mean, it takes ... some balls, it takes some guts."
  — Ramsay (51:34)

• Open-Minded Skepticism

  "Just because I hear a story doesn't mean I believe it ... true information is as valuable as somebody who's lying. If I know you're lying because I can prove it, then that's valuable information too."
  — Ramsay (57:31)

• Community Culture

  "People want things to be 0 or 100, and things can be a mixed bag."
  — Dorey (66:06)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |:---------:|:-------------------------------------------------------------:| | 13:05 | Ramsay on Bob Lazar’s emotional state during UFO discussions | | 15:08 | The Aztec UFO crash and possible government cover-up | | 24:27 | Lazar’s recruitment, work at S-4, tests with alien tech | | 31:53 | Element 115 experiments and time-dilation/black hole anecdote | | 37:00 | Why and how Bob Lazar left S-4 | | 48:39 | Dorey on the incredibility if even 10% of Lazar's story is true| | 54:15 | Ramsay: "I'd rather talk to a farmer than a lawmaker" | | 58:59 | The ocean’s mysteries and USO (unidentified submersible objects)| | 64:33 | Skepticism toward government counterintelligence spokespersons | | 66:06 | On oversimplification and nuance in evaluating information |

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Flow & Tone Summary

• Language & Tone:
  The conversation is lively, skeptical yet open-minded, and reflects the nuanced, sometimes conspiracist but consistently critical tone of in-depth UFO discussion. Both Ramsay and Dorey avoid sensationalism, anchoring claims in personal experience, cited sources, and logical inference. Humor, colloquialisms, and relatable analogies ("touch some grass, people" – 66:44) keep the tone accessible and engaging.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of UFO secrecy, whistleblower credibility, and the difficulties of genuine disclosure in a climate of compartmentalization and misinformation. Chris Ramsay’s insights, especially his personal experience with Bob Lazar, bring immediacy and credibility to the discussion, while both host and guest maintain a healthy skepticism of both official narratives and extraordinary claims. They argue convincingly for keeping the conversation open, valuing authentic witnesses, and focusing less on institutional gatekeepers and more on honest dialogue.

Recommended for listeners seeking clarity—and complexity—in the modern UFO debate.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

It's a bit insane.

[B]

Everyone in. He knows where we are. Watch out. Get ready for one last adventure. We stay true to ourselves, stay true to our friends, no matter the cost.

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[A]

Hey, guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a subscribe. Huge, huge, huge help. Thank you.

All right, we're. We're on air.

[B]

What.

[A]

What is this sorcery you're doing to me?

[B]

Well, so during the break, I. I had you. I want you to think of this word, okay? You got a word you're thinking of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't tell anybody this word. Keep it in your mind. You got a word.

[A]

So my mind and my brain, all.

[B]

We're gonna see if I can guess this word. Okay. All right. Look at me.

[A]

I don't want to look at you.

[B]

Look at me. All right, hold on.

I'm gonna write it. Weird. So you.

[A]

Are you remote viewing this?

[B]

Yes.

Okay. So is this. Tell me, is this.

Was this on your browser history recently? Was this yes or no? I'm not giving you anything. You can tell me yes or no, was this on your browser history with this?

[A]

I don't. I don't think so.

[B]

Oh, okay. I think you would know.

[A]

I mean, I think about it. You ever been inside my head?

[B]

Is this. While I'm trying. Is this.

This is kind of. I'm getting a. Is this wild? This is a little wild, right?

[A]

Like. Like wild, like it's nuts or wild like.

[B]

No, not like it's nuts.

[A]

Like. Like out in the wild.

[B]

I know you're giving me a clue, okay.

[A]

No, no, I'm asking you, which one do you mean?

[B]

Okay, hold on. There's a.

[A]

That's actually a very.

[B]

Hold on, hold on. There's a.

There's a Z.

Right? Okay, I think we know we're going. There's an E. There's a B. Yeah. There's an R. Yeah, there's an A. I think we all know what this is. On the count of three, I Want you to say it out loud. One, two, three.

[A]

See.

[B]

That's not it.

[A]

No, but that was good.

[B]

Close. Good. I feel.

[A]

Oh, my God. All right.

[B]

That was good.

[A]

I needed that. I. Oh, my God.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Any. Anyway, we're now even. Where were we? I don't even remember. Oh, we were at Los Alamos. That's right. That's right. So this was, this was like when I, I, I was just telling you the. Before we took the break there, when I talked with Jesse, like, his history on Los Alamos blows my mind. That was in episode 240. Like, there's a whole rabbit hole there. But the idea that we made something that could destroy ourselves, and then after that, because Los Alamos creates that, you know, the war ends as a result of that being used and, you know, Europe being taken care of. And then after that, from, you know, the late 1940s through the present day, all these events happen. It's not to say we didn't have previous events, like we were saying that were written down about aliens in the past or whatever, but there was this uptick and these patterns that formed, including a lot of these things appearing where there are nukes or where there are.

[B]

Places where not just nukes, High powered radar.

[A]

Move this way. Sorry.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, keep going.

[B]

Not just nukes, high powered radar, even lasers. I mean, the tech, the tech that we're testing out in these test sites.

Obviously we're testing nukes, but there's so much other technology that's being tested there as well. And people often forget that. It's like, that's where, that's where the cusp of new technology is coming from. Right. So if you were to monitor this planet, like, that's where you would be. Right. And so when people say, why is it only in America? First of all, we all know it's not only in America, but the. There is a significant amount in America. And part of that is due to the fact that America is the world's superpower in terms of, like, military and tech. And as far as we know. And so, you know, yeah, that would be a reason. Now here's the other thing, though, is that China keeps everything locked down. So does Russia, kind of, but China more. And so, you know, we just have really big mouths about this stuff too. Like, we're out here saying, Whoa, there's UFOs, dude, for all we know, there might be a ton of crash retrievals over in China. You would never know.

[A]

James Fox has reported on the Russian China thing. A lot like the Little bit that he was even able to get. And it happens.

[B]

Well, you have to think, like, we have compartmentalized.

Sort of projects, that if you were to work on a ufo, for instance, and this brings us to, like, Bob Lazarus, he would be off with his partner working on propulsion. You'd have another team working on the metal of the craft or on weaponry or on whatnot. And those people would not be allowed to talk to each other. And we don't have to look further than our own space programs. I have a friend who worked at SpaceX, and he was working on a part of the rocket. He wasn't allowed to know what that part was for that he was working on. He's like, you know, I would probably be able to do far greater work if you just told me what this was for. And they go, don't worry about it. And that's it. And it's going on a rock. And it's not, you know, but that's how compartmentalized systems work. So it's not. It's not specifically for UFOs, but it's in all types of defense technology sort of projects. And so when you're looking at the UFO space specifically, we have all these compartmentalized things going on. Well, China, they're just like, all right, here's our 500 Best Engineers.

Talk amongst yourselves, figure it out, and then bring it all back to me. There's no compartmentalization over there.

[A]

Then how do they keep a secret here?

[B]

We have. We have to keep a secret because the president.

Shouldn'T know about this stuff for many reasons. One, because plausible deniability. If ever something comes out and the president knew about it, he's now in trouble. Yeah, they can put him in jail because he knew about this illegal activity. And so they have to keep this information compartmentalized because they got a new president every four years. Not the case in China, not the case in Russia, but that's right. Everything goes to the top. And so if you want to ask. If I had to pick, like, one person to ask about the UFO program, it probably. Putin, like, that guy probably knows everything about the UFO program.

[A]

A lot of open land in Russia, too.

[B]

Yeah. And they. And he's been around forever. And you know that, like, he just grabbed everything from the previous guy. There's no hiding stuff from that guy. So, you know, and that's the difference, I think, between this compartment. I think compartmentalization actually will hurt us in the long run. And I think that's. That might be why a lot of These top physicists who are looking into this stuff are worried, and especially Bob Lazar, he was saying this stuff too, you know, back in early 90s, was let us work together because if not, they're going to figure it out much faster than we are.

[A]

I just, this is the part that kind of hangs me up. The compartmentalization here also makes verifying things for the people that do leak it or decide to go public harder because they only know one little piece and it's like, you know, they don't even.

[B]

Know that they're working on something exotic.

[A]

That's right. Whereas, yes, you're talking about totalitarian regimes here, especially China and Russia, where, you know, there's always the threat of death and stuff like that. But when you bring 500, a thousand, 2,000 people on it and they all know and they're all a part of it, even if they all feed that to the president, if one of them gets out of the country and defects, they got everything. You know what I mean? Like, the risk is so high.

[B]

Yeah. But also I don't think, like, I mean, culturally it is different. If you look at, you know, America versus other countries, there's a massive cultural gap between how we treat things and we're ready to like boast about our first victory or whatever. Where a lot of, a lot of these countries, most of the Asian countries specifically, are very humble when it comes to that stuff. And they don't really talk about, they're just like, nose down work, do what's good for your country, very patriotic. It's very rare that you'll see like defectors in any other. And maybe, maybe I'm wrong here, but in any other.

Like work, like what else do you. Do you see a lot of Chinese defectors when it comes to nuclear technology, when it comes to AI, when it comes to nuclear. No. Right. So AI, I've seen a couple. But yeah, nuclear. I wouldn't be surprised if there was, if there were some that came out from the UFO stuff as well. But they'll probably treat it the same way they treat everything else and just snuff it out and, you know, it gets.

[A]

The thing about the UFO thing though, is it, it's, it's not. It's a borderless thing.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Which technically all technology is, don't get me wrong. But like, this is the. I shouldn't even say borderless. It is something quite literally not of this earth, which is something that affects us all regardless of what borders and laws we live within. Right. So you would think There would be like another layer to that that has nothing to do with like, oh, like Chinese patriotism or Russian patriotism or United States patriotism. And more has to do with like, you know, if you were working on a project and you're like, holy, we recovered a hundred yard long craft and reverse engineered anti gravity because some Zeta Reticulian, you know, crash this year. The ontological shock of that. I, I don't. I mean, maybe you're right. Maybe culturally they'd just be like, oh, wow, cool, all right, forgot in China, you know, but.

[B]

Or scared to talk.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's definitely a real thing. There's a lot of. Most of the people would be scared to talk. I'm just saying all it takes is one, one to not be scared.

[B]

Yep, true. But then who's he telling? You know, where's he going?

[A]

Cnn.

[B]

Yeah, good luck.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like, where do you go where you're a Chinese guy, you speak Chinese, you're coming to America or you're leaving China, let's say, and you want to go public, where do you go? Who do you talk to? You know, you speak Chinese and you speak Mandarin, you're trying to, you know, first of all, anything you say we're going to, we're going to think of some propaganda, you know, there's nothing you can say that I'm going to think is real, you know. So, yeah, I think it's, it might be easier to keep secret than we think, but other parts of it I also think are really hard to keep secret. And that stuff's been coming out and we just kind of ignore it. Like you talked about Bob Salas there. Like there's so many other cases of whistleblowing that has happened. And I don't mean whistleblowing through like the Dopser regulated, you know, path. I mean actual people who are coming out, quote unquote illegally to say that, hey, there's a problem here, you know, and the first.

First one I can think of is Bob Lazar.

[A]

Have you ever met Bob Lazar?

[B]

I have, yeah. Spent time with him, like at dinner, that kind of. Yeah, yeah, I spent, I spent a couple days with him because he was.

[A]

A couple days.

[B]

Yeah, he was in town doing, working on the documentary the S4 the Bob Lazar Story. My friend Luigi and Italy, who's also in Montreal, so I got to hang with him there.

[A]

What did you think of him?

[B]

Incredibly.

Normal guy. And I, I think everybody who meets Bob kind of says that about him. He's just like a salt of the earth type guy. My meter wasn't off at all. Like, it didn't go off. Like it was.

He gets, I can say he does get incredibly. There is, there is stress when he talks about this stuff, but you can tell it stems from a place of fear and that you can just detect off someone like his energy shifts and not to an energy of, oh, I, I'm trying to lie. It's more of an energy of like.

I got to talk about this. Like, it's like it conjures up something very, very, very profoundly dreadful in him, you know, and you can feel that. I remember, I remember speaking to him and talking to him about like Majestic 12 stuff.

[A]

Oh yeah, tell people what Majestic 12 is.

[B]

Yeah, it was apparently this group that was formed after the Roswell crash that consisted of 12 people, including, you know, generals and scientists and leaders of industry to cover up the UFO stuff. And then they formed what was known as the Majestic 12, which is, hey, this information is going to be, you know, only known by these 12 people. And as soon as one leaves, another one comes in type deal. And so he had heard the term, right? According to him, he'd heard the term at S4. He'd heard like the term majestic. Even his badge had M A J on it. So he had like majestic clearance, which was, you know, very few people had that. And so I was talking to him about it and he was like kind of interested because he never, he's not a UFO guy, he doesn't know about any of this stuff. And he told me, you know, I was talking to him about Aztec. The Aztec crash, which is a crash that happened in 48, in March 48 to nine months after Roswell, which is, I think, probably the most well documented crash in history.

[A]

Which one? Fill me in on that. I want to say Ryan Wood talked about that, but there were a bunch we talked about when he was here.

[B]

Maybe, maybe Ryan Wood would have talked about it. I know that Scott and Suzanne Ramsey wrote a book on it. Bill Steinman wrote a book called UFO Crash at Aztec.

[A]

What happened at Aztec?

[B]

It was 100 foot disc, 100 foot in diameter disc that hit the side of a bluff that was witnessed by this guy at the Archuleta Ranch and then veered off and landed on a mesa in Aztec, which was then found by two people. And then the Air Force was called in. Took two weeks for them to recover it. There were 16 bodies apparently that were pulled from that wreckage. There's a great video that UAP Gerb put on a. Did a real deep dive on it. He does great stuff. And I helped Jesse direct. I directed a video that's going to come out on Jesse's channel.

[A]

Oh, very cool.

[B]

We went down to Aztec in New Mexico and went to the crash site and went to.

[A]

Sixteen bodies were recovered.

[B]

Yeah, allegedly.

[A]

What allegedly happened to them?

[B]

They were sent off to, initially Los Alamos, and then from what we gathered, to Wright Pat. At least the crafts were sent to. Right, Pat? Maybe the body stayed in. I don't know.

[A]

Wright Patterson, Air Force.

[B]

Yes. It would have been Wright Airfield at the time.

[A]

Okay, so you were talking to Bob Lazar about this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the context there, talking about that with him?

[B]

Because we were talking about majestic stuff, and I was just talking about things that. Yeah, that's the plaque at the crash site. I went there. That was written by Scott Ramsey there.

[A]

Yeah. I'll just read this real quick. Joe pulled this up on or about this site. On March 25, 1948, a spacecraft of origins unknown crashed or landed on this mesa.

[B]

All right, listen up.

[A]

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[B]

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Neat.

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The Los Alamos Radar station in nearby Elvado, Mexico, tracked the errant landing to this site. A high security recovery operation led by the Air force and the 5th Army Division was responsible for the removal of this craft. The recovery operation took approximately two weeks, with all the remains being taken to Los Alamos Laboratory for scientific study and evaluation by some of the world's leading scientists. Later, it was rumored to have been taken to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. The recovery of this craft by the U.S. government and military was one of the most secretive recoveries of a spacecraft with origins unknown since the similar recoveries in Roswell, New Mexico, eight months earlier. The spacecraft was approximately 100ft in diameter and 18ft tall. It was one of the most intact crafts that the government had recovered at that time. Sadly, all occupants, as many as 16, died as a result of this crash, and making the full disclosure of both purpose and origin all but impossible. The plaque has been placed here to bring awareness to an event that has been kept secret for 59 years and is a significant part of America's history.

[B]

Yeah, Pretty wild.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I was talking about that, and he was really interested because he told me, he's like, you know, he goes, john would talk about this stuff all the time. And I never believed him. And he was referring to John Learn, who's a well known conspiracy theorist, you know, but also a pilot for the CIA. And. And so. But, you know, Bob was really clear with me, at least, that the relationship he had with John Lear was one that was. Was friendly, but he didn't buy into any of the stuff John was saying. Like, John would, you know, Bob would say, oh, John thought people lived in the sun. Like, he. He just kind of threw everything out. So he never really registered that any of this could be real. He thought it was all hogwash, kind of. And so when I brought up Majestic 12 and I brought up, you know, Aztec and this, that you could see him being like, wait, you think this happened? And I'm like, oh, yeah, especially Aztec. I'm pretty high conviction. After reading Steinman's book and looking into Scott and Suzanne Ramsey's work, they got a new book coming out soon, by the way, on this stuff. It's really interesting. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that it did happen. And then I remember mentioning to Bob that.

There was a witness that came out that said they saw this craft in a hangar at Wright Patterson and they were doing a high voltage test on it. And it went translucent, like kind of see through, but not fully. Kind of like a shower glass.

[A]

Yeah. Where you could see the shape.

[B]

You could see shapes of people. And Bob got all excited and he goes, that's exactly what it was like. And he started like. And it was just me and him, like, he got, you could tell, like, visibly excited by it. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, when? So when he was in the craft, the one time he was allowed in the ufo, they were measuring the chair whatnot or the seating device, and he was looking, and all of a sudden, one of the panels went invisible. One of the panels of the craft and symbols started appearing on the panels. According to him, that was the only time he's allowed in the craft. But he remembers that and he speaks about that. And so when I mentioned it wasn't completely transparent, he went like. He got all excited because he's like, that's what it was like. He never met. That's not a detail that he ever mentioned. But you saw that it excited him that it came from someone else. And so, you know, it was really interesting to see him react to. To. To that stuff. And he's not opposed to, like, meeting people like Scott, Sudan, Ramsey, people who he can trust. Know something. I think he's afraid of engaging with the UFO space because of how many people speculate. He does not like to speculate. Sure, he'll, like, talk about things, but when it comes to what he's seen, and he's very, very careful about talking about stuff because he doesn't want to give people the wrong idea. You know, even in the blue documents that, that they had him read, where they briefed him on these alleged blue documents that contained, you know, all sorts of secrets about religion, where we're from, hybridization programs or genetic modifications in humans and that the anatomy of a gray. Where they're from what star system. Like, all this stuff he had to be briefed on, he never believed any of it. And he, and he, he really is reluctant to talk about it in public. He'll chat about it, like, off camera, I think, but in public. He just doesn't want to give people the impression that it's true. He's like. He knows about passage material and the fact that sometimes they'll put bullshit in there to see that if you talk about it to someone else, they'll know exactly who it came from. And he's very. And he's like, they do that. They do that. And he's like. So he's like. The only thing I can say is that whatever they showed me about the craft that he worked on, that was true. So, you know, I can only surmise that whatever else he read about is also true, but he'll never make that assumption.

[A]

So did. I mean, because obviously, like, you're very familiar with this story and everything. You're. You're into all this stuff. But did you have him, like, kind of go through it step by step with you again?

[B]

Yeah, we. Yeah, we touched on it. We definitely. I, you know, I was able to, like, poke and prod where I thought there might Be.

Weaknesses, not. I'm high conviction on Balbazar. I'm extremely high conviction on Balazar.

That, that he went through what he went through.

[A]

So he says that he was working out at Area 51, Nellis Air Force Base. He had access to S4.

[B]

He was working at S4.

[A]

He was working. Yeah, I'm sorry, he. He was working at S4. And at some point as. As a physicist. Engineer, I should say. And at some point he's brought in.

[B]

Yeah, he's brought in. He was actually recruited. So he'd met Edward Teller, who knows the father of the H bomb. He'd met him at a talk once and then kind of. Teller was reading the newspaper and on the front page of the paper was Bob. It was a local Los Alamos paper and Bob was on the front cover because he'd made a jet engine car. And he's a big fan of like propulsion and racing and doing dangerous shit and just kind of like, he's a bit of a badass. He loves exploding things. And, you know, he used to host Desert Blast, which is this thing where they'd blow shit up in the desert.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So Bob's a bit of a badass when it comes to that stuff. So he thought, oh, this is a good opportunity to meet Teller and to be like, hey, that's me on the COVID And so they kind of like go back and forth. Teller gives him his contact info. And then I think years later, I don't even think it's months. I think years later he was looking for a job. He's like, oh, maybe I want to go back into working as like a scientist. And so he had hit up Teller and Teller said, oh, I might have a job for you. And had him come down to. I forget it was in Las Vegas. But to. To do some interviews. So he did a few interviews, got him a job. They said, yeah, it'll be perfect for this. Didn't know what the job was. Weird questioning and like, kind of like, what do you do in your personal time? Which is a weird thing to ask. And then, yeah, they'd fly them out to. They took the JANET Airlines, which is the airplane that goes from Las Vegas airport to the airport, the airstrip@area51. And then from there he'd get into a bus and do a 20 minute ride by himself. By himself, by himself. And Dennis Mariani, his supervisor, would be in there with him. And then he'd go to S4 where he would eventually be told that what he's working on was reverse Engineering of an alien craft, and that their number one priority was to figure out how it worked.

[A]

And they said alien craft. That was the term.

[B]

They didn't say. No, they didn't say anything. They. In fact, they put him in a room and had him read documents. And the documents said it was from Zeta Reticuli. It was, you know, all this stuff that it was. It hinted that this particular craft was from an archaeological dig that might have been 10,000 years old. So all this stuff. But again, Bob, you know, he's reading this stuff and he's like, oh, this is probably a test. They're probably testing me, you know, to see if I'm insane or. So he doesn't know. He doesn't. You know, in fact, when he first walked in, when he first saw the craft the first time, it had an American flag sticker on it, right?

[A]

That, like, they put it on there.

[B]

And. And he goes in his head, he's like, ah, that's what people are reporting. He's like, it's just ours. He. He didn't think aliens. He thought, oh, this is just ours. But, like, people are seeing this. And, like, that explains it, finally. Logical thing to think. And. Yeah, then he goes to read these documents and whatnot. And then he gets to work with the actual reactor and the. The transmitter and the, you know, and the amplifier, the gravity amplifier and the propulsion, essentially, of the craft.

[A]

Is anyone else working on it with him?

[B]

Yeah, one person. Barry. Barry Castillo, I think his name was. And that's his only partner. And Bob was actually, according to Bob, was replacing.

Barry's other partner, who had died tragically. Somehow, I think he thinks by cutting open the reactor, they try to do some testing.

He doesn't know if more than one person died, but he knows that that guy died. He was replacement guy that dies due to that. So, you know, Barry was really excited and to have a new partner. And he kind of briefed Bob and what his job would be. And then one day they were allowed to go inside the craft and measure stuff. And then one other day, they were actually brought outside to see a test flight where he got to stand under the.

[A]

Like in the desert?

[B]

Yeah, right outside. So these. These doors are in the side of a mountain. There's like nine hangar doors, and they're camouflaged. And then they brought the craft outside somehow. He wasn't aware of how they brought it out. And he was outside and it was sort of in the air, and he was allowed to walk under it.

[A]

How would he forget how the craft is Brought out. So he doesn't know that. But how would he be brought out? Would someone come in and be like.

[B]

Dennis came in and said, they're doing a test.

[A]

You should see this. Through these doors, walk through the hallway, you get outside and then suddenly.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And how did he describe the test flight looking? And what did they do?

[B]

It was a. It was just. It went up and went back down. No sound. Yeah.

[A]

So he's.

[B]

And there was some. There was like. There was a rate. This is the interesting thing, which always, like, kind of stands out as, like, weird. Even Bob thinks it's weird that there was communication on a radio frequency between whoever was inside, allegedly, and with the person on the ground. And Bob's thinking that's impossible because if you're creating a gravitational field around this, there, it's, There's. You're. You're in your own space, in space time. There's no way radio frequency would get through that. Yeah, there's no way. So he doesn't know what that was about.

[A]

He knows that the test pilot in that case had to be like our guy rather than alien.

[B]

No idea. Doesn't know anybody that was in there. So it, it, you know, he speculates, like, oh, I don't know, maybe they were trying to trick me. Maybe, you know, they were. Maybe they're. I don't know. I think, you know, what if. What if the only way we can fly it is like, with their help. Right? Meaning like them or the kids, as he refers them to them as. But the aliens. Right. What if, like. And so what if one of them was in there during that time and they had to like, pretend it was a human, so they were radioing somebody else somewhere else, you know, and Bob kind of maybe figured that out. I don't know. It's all, that's all me speculating. I love thinking about this, though.

[A]

I can tell. It's so fast. So it's so fascinating because it's like, God, even if like 10% of it's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Big deal, right? But did he just. Did you ask him about what his. When he saw it actually fly out there? If, like that moment, obviously he's thinking about the science of the radio frequency thing. Doesn't make sense. But was he also. Did he have a moment to even, like, step back and be like, wait, my entire worldview has just completely changed.

[B]

It changed way before then, I think.

[A]

Way before that.

[B]

Yeah. When he was doing tests with the reactor.

[A]

When did the element 115 thing come in?

[B]

That's what the reactor.

[A]

Can you explain that again?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Forget what the context is there.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's basically the fuel, and it's this little triangular slice of apparently, element 115 that would go into the reactor. And I'm not exactly. If you want to know more about this, by the way, stay tuned for. As for the Bob Lazar Story, they go through everything. It's a fantastic documentary. It's late, we get it, but it's coming.

But they explain how all of that works. So essentially, it's. The element 115 is, like, fed into something. It's hit with.

[A]

I don't even.

[B]

I'm not even going to pretend to understand, but it creates 116, which decays, which then creates antimatter, and then that powers the craft somehow. They still don't know how. There aren't any wires connecting anything. And yet still things are working. Like, there's a lot of stuff. So Bob said he would just. It was like disarming a bomb every day. Like, he didn't know. You know, it's. You give a nuclear reactor to somebody in the 1600s, oh, yeah, they're gonna get sick and die. They're gonna kill people. Like, he's like. That's what we were playing with. He's like, it was very dangerous. They had no idea the power. They could just test things. So they do this, and then nothing happened. Then they do that. Nothing happened. It was very boring, he said, but, like, stressful. And then he did some tests which were really freaking cool.

[A]

What? Like what?

[B]

The coolest one that he's ever talked about was they put a candle beside the reactor, and when they. They had the gravity amplifier. And when they turned the amplifier to, like.

To. I guess. I guess it was like directional gravity, this thing. And so when you turn it, it, like, focuses gravity, and they would do that onto the flame of the candle. The candle would stop jumping. It would stand still, but it would still emit light, which was impossible to him. So it was like creating time dilation. Yeah. Because of the. Because he was amplifying gravity. And then he did. He also did it once where they created, like, this what seems like a black hole.

[A]

A black hole?

[B]

Yeah. It was like a round circle that was black. That was when they cranked it and, like, focused the gravity beam. It would create this round dot. And they didn't know what that was. They didn't interact with it, you know.

[A]

And, like, stick a finger up.

[B]

Yeah. Sucked in. Because, you know, maybe. Maybe that'll destroy the whole universe. You know, who knows? I don't know. I don't know what kind of, you know, but that's the type of technology you're working with when you're messing with gravity. And I'm sure that the US government or whoever was in charge of the nuclear tests felt some of that. When you're blowing up megatons of nuclear, like, you're probably tearing space time at some, on some level as well. Right. So, yeah, I think all that stuff's incredibly dangerous, but so fascinating. Yeah.

[A]

How long did he say he was doing the work on it and the testing?

[B]

Approximately? I think he was only, I think he was only there for a few months still.

[A]

That's like a lot of time to spend with one craft.

[B]

Yeah, well, he only, he went in the craft once. Other than that, he was working with the reactor, just doing tests on the. Trying to reverse engineer how it propels, you know. There's some interesting stuff there, though. I mean, there's a ton of interesting stuff. Yeah.

[A]

Would they debrief him on a daily or weekly basis? And if so, like, who's doing that?

[B]

Nope, nope.

[A]

So he would just get. He'd be brought in by the same guy, Dennis, you said his name was, to work on it. Every.

[B]

Security guards everywhere and then that are constantly pushing you, constantly threatening you, pushing you and threatening. Yeah, yeah. Like checking his id. Even though, like, he, he knows he works there. Like, you know, and keep it down. Like all this, like, you better not talk. Like just constantly, constantly berating them with stress inoculation. And that's the environment he's like, is a high, very high stress environment. Because these, these people would. Yeah, they were like bullies, essentially. The security that was there constantly. And it would put you in a state of fear, like stress, High stress and fear. Constantly, constantly, constantly. You had to whisper when you were talking. Like, so nobody. Like, it was, you know, look down, look down. There was a red line and a blue line. If you cross the red line, you were immediately shot, like, type deal. You had to follow the blue line. Like it was high stress environment. Like, very, very, very, very. And so, like when I, when I hear that, you know, like these are. This is 1989, when Bob came out and he started talking about reverse engineering of a craft. The first time we talk about an intact craft that we're reverse engineering, by the way. Everything else was a crash before that. And so, you know, that was new. And then talking about the propulsion, talking about, like how they're doing it in teams. Like, nobody had ever really Talked about that and then, you know, just saying things like, oh, the high stress environment during the compartmentalization. And I mean, you listen to Grush, you listen to all these guys, what they're talking about. They're talking about the same thing, you know, and yet people are all freaking out about all these new whistleblowers. Dude, Bob was saying all this stuff, man. He was saying all of the stuff. Everything we're talking about now started with Bob. Everything. You can sit there and say, oh, yeah, but this doesn't add up or that doesn't add up. Maybe it does, maybe it does and you just don't know the full story. But rest assured that everything he's talking about, like, is coming to light. We're, we're talking about all the same.

[A]

Things now after he puts in, you know, a 10, 12 hour day, whatever it is, in this high stress situation over these months, like each day when he's escorted out of there by Dennis, like, yeah, you just sleep on the base and.

[B]

Nope. Goes home.

[A]

Goes home.

[B]

Yep. Takes the bus back and flies back to Vegas and then drives back home.

[A]

Flies back, yeah.

[B]

Yes. He has to fly out of the Area 51 back to on January. He's doing like a multi crazy days.

[A]

Multimedia, you know, four hour commute.

[B]

Yep. If you were there, he says that there's. There might have been people that slept there, you know, but he never did.

[A]

Hey guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge, huge help.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Now what?

[B]

Maybe if he would have stayed longer.

[A]

How did it end? How did he stop working on it? What was that process?

[B]

He was, if I'm not mistaken, I think there was some trouble in paradise. I think his wife was.

Was seeing someone else, having an affair.

[A]

Yep. And he didn't. He like.

[B]

Well, the CIA was tapping him like they do, or the CIA or whoever the program was, you know, they're just making sure that your home life is stable because if anything goes wrong at the home, then they're like, oh, you know, you might be a problem, you might be a liability. And so they were anticipating that there was going to be a problem with him, that they would have to let him go. And I think he sensed that, but he didn't know why. So these guys found out before he did about his wife. Right. Because they're tapping the phones and everything. So they know what's going on, but he doesn't. So they're anticipating that, oh, this is going to go bad. We got to Let him go type deal. And so he started bringing his friends up, like John Lear, I think, Gene Huff, I think all these guys started bringing them up to a place which is no longer accessible, but a place that overlooked S4 back then. And they would do test flights Wednesday nights at like 2am it was the least amount of air traffic or local traffic. And so he brought them up there on three separate occasions to see test flights. And they saw. They saw. There's even video of that. It's really like old 80s footage. And it's just a light, but it skips, it goes, just like he said it would.

[A]

Isn't that like breaking his confidentiality agreement, though, doing that?

[B]

Yeah, 100%. But he was afraid for. He was afraid for his life. He didn't know. He thought he might be like.

[A]

So why.

[B]

He's getting paranoid.

[A]

Hey, listen, I'm not judging.

[B]

And the last night. Why?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Why wasn't he thrown in prison? Like, you would think this would be the thing. They throw you in prison forever for.

[B]

For what?

[A]

I mean, they could lie about the details and say that's national security information.

[B]

And risk him just blowing up in prison and being like, oh, no, this is what they did. I mean, they would much. They would.

[A]

They've killed people for far less.

[B]

They would much sooner kill you. Yeah. And then that's why he was afraid, because he even says he's got Ryan off the road. He was shot at.

[A]

Yeah. Why didn't that. That's the other thing.

[B]

Like, he went to George immediately.

[A]

Immediately.

[B]

Yep. And broke.

[A]

So he got caught. What happened when he got caught the last night again?

[B]

There's a bunch of people that came out, basically caught him, took all their names, and then sent them home. And then that's where he knew, like, he was like, oh, this is going to be a problem.

[A]

So he goes to George Knapp, who's a local reporter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at first, he does it without revealing his identity. So you just hear his voice. He says his name is, like, Dennis or something.

[B]

Which is his supervisor's name. Yeah.

[A]

And he says, what? When he did the first one, how much did he reveal? Was it just like, hey, I've been working on stuff that's not of this earth, and kept it?

[B]

No, he said there's like nine craft at a base.

[A]

So he gave some detail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then not too long after, he actually goes public with his face with George.

[B]

I think he gets threats between then and when he came out. So I think that's what Made him come out was for his own safety. After that, he's like, I need to go public and you put my face out there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think.

You know, these are major claims, obviously.

[B]

Yeah, huge.

[A]

It's crazy.

Do you think that a lot of the stuff that's happened since then, where these institutions that he claimed to be a part of, say there's no record of him being here, whether it be MIT or there was another one as well. I forget what it's called. It was like 3,000 miles away or something like that, you know. Do you think some of that is explained by, you know, downward stream threats of people being told like, hey, you got to deny this guy, deny his credibility, we have to destroy his credibility, etc. Is that how you would explain it?

[B]

I can't really say.

You know, there is. There is, I think, a real reason why his records don't show up. I think that's very real.

[A]

What do you mean it's very real?

[B]

Well, I think the fact that, like, I think his. I think his records were destroyed.

And I think that I don't think he was the only one. I think there were other people whose were also. But I think. Yeah, I don't think that.

I'm gonna say this. I think there's a perfectly good reason why there's no records there. I think it makes sense if you hear it.

[A]

Sometimes I think about it, like, it's.

[B]

Not for me to say.

[A]

You know the movie shutter Island? Leonardo DiCaprio.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, spoiler alert. He's playing a guy who, it turns out the whole time like he's actually in an insane asylum.

[B]

The who's down in who Newville were making their list, but some didn't know Walmart has the best brands for their gifts. What about toys? Do they have brands kids have been wanting all year?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Barbie, Tonys and Lego Gifts that will make them all cheer. Do you mean they have all the brands I adore? They have Nintendo, Nespresso, Apple and more.

[A]

What about.

[B]

So the who answered questions from friends till they were blue? Each one listened and shouted from Walmart. Who knew? Shop gifts from top brands for everyone on your list.

[A]

In the Walmart app, everyone who then looks at him once the reveal is given looks at him like, oh, crazy person, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Imagine being that person and everyone looks at you that way even though both you and them know you're not crazy. Yeah, but they have to play the role of like, almost like in the 1984 movie of Life. Just like, like, oh, Bob, you Don't really think that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? But it's like this. Yeah, assume kind of thing. That's kind of what I wonder.

[B]

Bob doesn't give a. That's. That's what's fun about Bob. He does not give a. Whether you believe him or not, he doesn't care. Couldn't be bothered. He doesn't care. It's so funny because, like, we're out here. What do you mean you don't believe in Bob? You look at the facts. No, you got this wrong. You know, you're. You're not doing your homework. Bob's like, let him. I don't give a shit. Yeah, who cares?

[A]

Let him go.

[B]

He doesn't care if you don't believe him. And I love that about him. He just. He can't be bothered. He's like, yeah, I know what happened. He's like, it happened when you want me say it happened. Like there's. I don't care what you say, you know, and he has that attitude, and he's maintained that. And it's the reason why he doesn't do a lot of interviews, right, is because he's like, I've told my story.

Do your thing. You know, world, take it.

[A]

Run.

[B]

What do you. I'm not going to make anything up now. He's like, I've told you everything I know. That's all I can do.

[A]

Do you think the reason he's turned down. Forget interviews. Do you think the reason he's turned down doing, like, some debates and stuff with, quote, unquote, qualified physicists or scientists or people within that space is because.

He'S been taken advantage of and lied to before? And so he feels like anything he goes to do is a trap? It's kind of like a catch 22 for him. Like, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[B]

Yeah, he's. I'd imagine he would be distrustful of a lot of people for a varying amount of reasons, whether it's government secrecy or just personal gain. Like, I think there's a lot to be distrustful of being him. And again, I just think, like, he gave. He gave all the information that he had to give. He's put out enough information out there where you're like, okay, it's time for you to piece the puzzle together. You know, if you're him.

You'Re not trying to debate anybody who cares if, you know, why, why, why? Why should he spend his energy convincing people what he went through was real when he knows it to be real.

[A]

I think the counter arguing, and I understand where he would come from mentally on that because it's such an crazy life experience that he had. I think the counter argument would be the classic look, you know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which means putting it to the test. The question is, are the people that put it to the test going to do that in good faith? And how do you judge good faith? And if I were him, with his life history and all the things that have happened to him, you know, the things that he alleges and stuff.

I might not be so trustful either of, quote, unquote, good faith in those discussions.

[B]

Yeah, and what will it matter? Like to what end? Like, it won't get. I don't think it'll further the conversation to have somebody debate. Right. Because if they want to find a reason not to believe, they're just gonna, you know, it. Like I said, I don't think it's about belief. I don't think it's about believing Bob or not believing Bob. I think it's about taking what Bob said and then doing the work, doing the homework. But instead of pushing back on what he said and trying to verify his own credibility, why don't we just take the information and do the work for ourselves? Why don't we take what we can and hold it up against the rest. Right. And see if it matches? And so far, it really matches. You know, and. And so his. His word aside, the information that he's giving you is, I think, valuable.

At least to a researcher. You know, he's. He's definitely. It definitely fills a lot of plot holes, which is fun. You know, somebody's trying to piece this stuff together. But, yeah, I don't think it's up. I don't think he should be put in a position where he has to convince anyone. I think he said what he has to say, take it or leave it. I kind of agree that at this stage, I think he's just. He just wants to live a normal life and, you know, he's a normal guy. He's not.

You know, I don't know. He's not out there at. Doing the convention tour or on a cruise ship.

[A]

He's still not a UFO guy. No, like you said.

[B]

Yeah, he's a science guy. You know, he has United Nuclear, his own company, where he still does science stuff. And.

[A]

Yeah, weren't they, like, selling some and they got, like, investigated because bad people were buying it or something like that. But that's not on him.

[B]

He sells Stuff to the government. He has government contracts. That's hilarious. You know, for. Yeah, it is so, so funny.

[A]

He.

[B]

He does, like, I think, uranium tests. They're like testing kits. They have like small traces, amount of uranium, and they're for like, calibration for like Geiger meters or whatever. They're like little cards and he. And like, he'll sell those. He sells all sorts of like. Yeah, stuff like that. Like really dangerous materials that he works with every day. So even for people thinking, oh, he's not a scientist. Like, he. He's in the lab. Yeah, he's in that shit. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I'd like to see you sit down with him one day. I think that'd be really cool. So dig into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hopefully it's like fucking eight hours long. And then you were here and on this date, you were here. You know, that'd be very cool to go through that because he's it. You know, the little public stuff he's done. I'm sure a lot of people have seen, like that Rogan episode. I think it's his most popular one ever. Like, he's tough read, you know, he's just like, kind of like you said, like to you when you got to spend a couple days with him, it's like, you know, he's. No. Just kind of tells you what it is. But when you're just watching him, like on camera for just like three hours, just kind of going through the story, he's got a real poker face, bro. I mean, it's like. It's like maybe. Maybe. Yeah. You're like kind of watching the whole time like. Yeah, yeah. Because it's. Man. If, like I said, if 10% of that's true, it's.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

What the fuck else do we have?

[B]

I agree. I think. I think as far as, like whistleblowers go, I think he's the most important whistleblower we've ever had.

[A]

I can't think of a bigger, you know, bigger.

[B]

He did it. He did it the way that he's a true whistleblower. He didn't go through some government process. And I'm not denigrating any of those people, but it is what it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, he came out and said everything that he could and then people crucified him for it. Right. You know, whereas if he would have went through a government approved process, they would have still shot on him.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What do you think of.

What do you think of Grush? Yeah, I think him coming out, obviously it's not quite a story.

[B]

No. But I think are. But I think what he did was great. I think what he did was great. And I think it's a shame that more haven't. You know, I think. I think him and Bob have something in common in that I believe they both felt.

That more people would follow up when they came out. I think Bob was hoping that more people from S4 would be like, yeah, me too. And I think Grush felt more people from the program would also be like, yeah, me too. And I don't think it happened. And I think that sucks, you know, if you're in that position. So.

[A]

Oh, there's a lot of things to happen behind the scenes, too. And I think people get winded out, like, oh, I don't want that to happen to me.

[B]

Yeah. And you see, you know, the barrage that he had to, you know, and. And just for that, just to not deal with social media is a big enough reason not to come out. Just to be like, I don't want that. I don't want to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have a Twitter profile now. And.

[A]

And that's the. That's the thing, though, when you're making. When you're coming out with something that big.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Forget just the extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Every part of your life that's publicly available is going to be picked apart. And there's. I understand that. And. And I'm. That sucks. I can't imagine being in that position. That really does suck. But, like, it's relevant, you know what I mean? Like, who you are, where you're from, what your motives could be if you don't come out all relevant.

[B]

Nobody knows that you know. Right. So they're never going to be like, you got to talk about. They'll just leave you alone.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But the second you say, I might know something now you're an asshole for not playing ball. Now you're might go to jail if you say something. Now you're in this weird position.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And, you know, we know people like that who, you know, they'll come out and they'll say a little bit of something. But now you're playing ball. Now we know you know, and now it's like everybody's judging you. Everybody's picking at your past and digging into everything you say and every interview and micro expressions and. But if you just sit back, you don't got to say anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and that's fine, too. So it's like, I get it. I do understand. But that's why. What Grush did and what Bob Lazar did. I mean, it takes. It takes some balls, it takes some guts. Yeah.

[A]

And then, look, you're going to get some people that are just going to copycat that and jump on it, and some that will just straight up lie, and then you'll get some stories that aren't reliable to. Which then can denigrate the original person through no fault of their own. Which I think some of that's happened to David Grush.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you did have, like, you're right. A lot of the people that he's referring to that he's like, I hope. And I don't know who these people are, but sure, I hope they'll come out and talk about it. Clearly, all those people didn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the. Of the people that have. There's been no one to come out since Grush that I think has anywhere near the level of, like, bullshit meter, you know, smell test credibility that he does. And we. And we've seen several. But, like, it's also. When you're in this space and you're getting sourcing now, a lot of the sourcing is coming from people that were in the government. Right. That, you know, they probably still are in, in some cases and they're compartmentalized, like we were talking about early, earlier with some of this stuff. And so, you know, if you're someone like James Fox, right. Our mutual friend, he's a documentarian, he has to go. He's not a government insider or like an insider in that case, on. On UFOs, he has to go get the sources. So if you get, without naming names, certain people who had access to certain programs to tell you things that then seem reliable, and then those same people then end up feeding you things that are not reliable. It makes the. It. It makes you question all of it. I know James, like, deals with that, like, yeah, all right. If that wasn't. I know this isn't true, but does. Does that mean that's not true? That seemed more true. This one's. You know what I mean? It's a really tough game to play.

[B]

It's tough. Yeah. That's why, you know, podcasting is easy for us because, you know, we can sit across somebody who's living a, you know, a schizophrenic reality or is a government insider, you know, and it doesn't matter either way. It's entertaining, it's fun. We can talk about things and discover things and hypothesize and theorize about whimsical realities. But yeah, like people like James, it makes it a little bit more tough because he's, he's in those courtrooms and he's in, you know, those interviews with the military folk. And that's why I think the more I study this stuff, the further from that disclosure. UAP team I'm going. And not because it isn't valuable. I think, sure it's valuable. It has its place. I just rather talk to a farmer than a lawmaker at the end of the day.

[A]

Farmer than a lawmaker?

[B]

Yeah, they're, they're just, you know, I don't know, somebody who's salt of the earth and just tells it like it is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, just because it comes from a guy in a suit who drafts up bills or whatever, it's not going to raise my conviction level. If anything, it'll lower it. So I think just talking to real people, experiencers, people who've, you know, had experiences and hearing them out and that's it, and then people judge. Yeah, I think we're going to, you know, that's our part. The part that we play as podcasters in this disclosure forum, I think is just opening the conversation. I think that's a really important part to play, is just to have a platform where it's okay. And now that, you know, someone says, oh, I was on the Julian Dorie podcast and they go, they go, oh yeah, I like that guy. Yeah, he had a guy on there was talking about aliens the other day and it's like, it's not so insane, you know, and I think that's just in itself very important to just have that. And so I'm very happy with that. I'll leave the detective work to guys like uap, GERB and, you know, and James Fox and those guys digging a little bit deeper than I ever, you know, could possibly.

[A]

So yeah, that was because like, I go, I go way back with James Alessi, who used to be the studio producer and runs all my. He's like the head of Content with me now. He, he was down in Brazil making moment contact with James in July 2021. James came to my parents house a few years ago, did a couple podcasts that went nuts and all that. So like, awesome guy, works his ass off, genuinely cares and, and really is amazing at getting people to open up. And you see, you see that in his work and like, whenever you're looking at anything, let alone something as wild as UFOs, doesn't matter who you are, you're never gonna get it all right, or there's gonna be things that later you're like, eh, I thought maybe that could be something, but that's actually bullshit. But you know how people are on the Internet. They pick every thing apart. And like, James made another brilliantly put together documentary with the program that had, by the way, had a lot of important storylines in. In it that absolutely have real verifiable stuff to it, but then also had Jason Sands in there. And this, this is where I ran into a problem, because the people that brought James. Jason Sands, which are think like government suit type people like you were talking about, have brought him other stuff in the past that seemed more to pass the smell test.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you see with Jason Sands and you realize that they knew that Jason had severe ptsd, among other issues in his profile that would make him questionable at best as a witness. And then clearly someone who. I. I don't think any of his stories real. I think it literally was all lifted from Gaia and there's a whole explanation behind there. But like, when those same people were push. Literally. I know. Pushing that shit down James's throat like, yo, just hear him out. Have him on this documentary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, what does that mean about some of the other stuff, of course, that we thought was pretty good?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, do you wrestle with that sometimes?

[B]

No, I. I just kind of take it in. It's fine. Like, I'm not. Just because I hear a story doesn't mean I believe it. So I'm very happy to hear all the stories, even if they're true or not, or I think something. I think true information is as valuable as somebody who's lying. I think if you're telling me the truth or lying, if I know you're lying because I can prove it, then that's valuable information too. Just like you said. Now that you have this, you're like, oh, now you start questioning the source. So I think it's important to get all this stuff. I don't care. You know, just let's. I don't know, let's just dissect what we have and, and speculate on what we have. I mean, there's nothing else we can do. This is all we got to play with. Like, I'm. I'm sitting here reading on Reddit and 4chan forums like, like I'm some type of, you know, researcher. It. It's all we got.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? And people come on, come down to me like that. They're like, hey, you know, 4chan isn't legitimate source. Yeah, obviously. But it's all we got. It's all I got. I got some guy here claiming. So I'm gonna take it. I'm gonna read the whole thing. If something clicks, something clicks. And if it doesn't, whatever, no loss. I'm just, you know, now I have more information I did before, so that's how I kind of treat it all, whether it's, you know, the Jason sand stuff or whatnot, I think. But I do hold, you know, witnesses that are outside of the government sphere in higher conviction than I would somebody within the government. For sure. For sure.

[A]

You were talking earlier about the underwater aspect of this and how, you know, you'll see things that seem to, like, appear from there and show up when, you know, there could be a nuclear test or you talk about, like, laser beams and stuff like that that could be going off, like. And it's like, they show up and then, of course, we all always think about the fact that, like, 95% of the ocean is completely unknown to us. Yeah, it's like, what the fuck could be down there? Do you think that.

Not necessarily all of it, but some of it could be, like, Darpa, who could be so, you know, 40, 50 years ahead of us in technology and, you know. Yeah, at least we have it.

[B]

Well, I think. I think. I think there. Yes, definitely.

I think, you know, we've been exploring the ocean since, like, the 50s as well. Right. With technology, with ground penetrating, sort of radar or sonar or whatever down there, looking for crafts that we lost, you know, in terms of rockets or, you know, so we've been exploring that quite a bit. And, yeah, I think it would be safe to assume that once or twice we've mistaken their technology for hours or hours for theirs or adversarial technology. Like, definitely. I think that there's, you know, we're at least 30 years ahead in tech, I would say.

[A]

What does that mean for something like AI, then? Because it's like.

[B]

Yeah, I think that means exactly what that means.

[A]

Like, we're living in the. In AI's reality and have been for a while and we just don't know it.

[B]

I don't know. I would assume. I would hope to think that if we did reach, you know, zero point on AI or whatever or the, you know, the. The peak of. Of creating artificial intelligence, that we would hear about it instantly. I would think, like, that would just change everything. It would. It would exponentially grow and just, like, take over everything immediately. I don't know. But in the event that we in the event that we wouldn't find out then I think, yeah, it does exist. It does, it's, it's being used for sure. Whatever the government has is better than what we have. That for sure whether we know that. Right.

[A]

That's why like when I listen to David Fravor's testimony, he's always really stood out to me because he's just like describing what he saw and then he gives you, you know, the, the actual video of like, here's what it was, here's where it moved. And he's like, listen, could be alien. It's something that we definitely didn't know about technology wise. So what the is it? You know what I mean? Like, that's, there's a real open minded nature to what he's revealing there that I think, you know, in the gimbal video, obviously.

[B]

And he's like, it is not Lockheed Martin.

[A]

Yeah, it's. But, but it's like.

What'S he even read in on? You know what I mean? Like he knows he's still a pilot, he's not the President or the CIA. So it's like, what are they not even telling the guys whose job it is to patrol the air about? Or is it just straight up like, oh, that's from another place. Which could be the explanation.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know, man. I think, I think probably some people do know. I just, I can't even speculate if it's from us. I don't think it's from us. I don't think that stuff that, especially the stuff that comes out of the water. I think, you know, if you, if you want to look for a reference, I think look at Richard Dolan's work. He's got a lot of work on underwater submerged objects.

Yeah. I would just assume that anything that's down there has been down there for a very long time is my guess.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think that a lot of the craft that we've retrieved has been from in the water.

[A]

Why do you think that?

[B]

UAP GERB did a lot of big deep dives on some of that stuff. Bob Lazar also says that he believes that. Well, first of all, the checks were made out from I think the Office of Naval Intelligence or the Department of Naval Intelligence to Bob Lazarus. So the Navy is massively involved. It's not the Air Force, it's the Navy. They're probably both dealing with their own things and don't even talk to each other about it. But the Navy, I think has probably the most advanced technology in terms of, like, reverse engineering UFOs. If that's the situation, it's definitely the Navy.

[A]

But then how do you explain things, like. Right, Pat. And stuff like that?

[B]

Yeah. Again, Air Force probably has some stuff, but I think the Navy's been pulling stuff out of the water for a very long time. There's a. There's a lot going on in the oceans, I think, and I think we're starting to hear about it more and more.

When something crashes in the water, it doesn't really blow up.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so might be. It might be easier to grab what's in. What's in the water.

[A]

Now, that was what. You mentioned this earlier. That was what Lou was talking about with Project Interloper, where the proposal was to, like, go out into the ocean, run, you know, some sort of nuclear simulation even.

[B]

Just have. Yeah. Nukes out there.

[A]

Have nukes and, like, try to draw.

[B]

Yep. Lure them in. Yeah. And then they said that they canceled that, so.

[A]

Yeah, that was convenient.

[B]

Yeah, they said, you know, never mind. Nah, don't worry about it. Don't. We're not gonna do that. No. Yeah. You want to even try it? Nah, we won't even try it. I think.

[A]

What do you think of Lou? You've had him in, too.

[B]

I think he's a nice guy. I think he's a very nice guy.

[A]

Nice guy, too.

[B]

Yeah. I think he's. I think he's a nice guy. You know, I'm not gonna.

I'm not gonna comment on, you know, whether. Listen, he worked counterintelligence, and that as someone who is skeptical of things, of the nature of what we're being told, I have to be skeptical of what he says. But that's a general skepticism that I hold for anyone in counterintelligence, not specifically to Lou.

[A]

I agree. I think you have to have that.

[B]

For all of them. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, would gladly have dinner with him. He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy. Yeah, he's been nice to me. He's been nothing but kind to me. You know, he did the podcast when it was, like, in the early stages, so, you know, he really. He came through there. I can't. Yeah. I can't knock him for that. As far as anything else goes, I mean, I think there are enough people on Twitter talking about that guy. I don't want to be a part of it.

[A]

That's. It's such a negative culture within, like, the whole, like, UFO thing. I stay the. Out of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've seen it. Before, it's like, again, it's what we.

[B]

Were talking about before. I just want to talk about people, you know, if. If Lou comes out and has, like, you know, some groundbreaking news, we can talk about that, you know, but as far as his character goes, I don't know him well enough to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To talk about that. I think he was nice to me, and I'll leave it at that.

[A]

I think it's another thing of where people want things to be 0 or 100, and things can be a mixed bag.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

And I've said that.

[B]

I would like to think so. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I've said that to his face on camera and off camera, and I feel pretty strongly that that is the case without knowing the full details of whatever it is that he's involved or isn't involved with now. You know, so it's like, take what he says. Do with it what you will. Yeah, that's. I think that's kind of our job. Put it out there for people to decide if they want to fight over that, they can fight over that. I think it just gets like, you know, sometimes, like, especially with. With, you know, people fighting over him and stuff, I'm just like, all right, go ahead and touch some grass, people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, there's better things to be fighting over here.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know, if you don't like his information, no problem.

[B]

Yeah. Move on. Yeah. Like, you know, there's the. The picture, I think, was the latest one. Right. With the. Where he showed the crop circle type deal. I tweeted. I thought it was. I thought it was real. You know, I was the one in.

[A]

The Dead Babies one.

[B]

Oh, no, I wasn't. I. I saw that one, too. Yeah.

[A]

Which, by the way, that is not. People were saying he. He passed something to me in episode 273.

[B]

No, they thought it was that.

[A]

Where I couldn't say what it was. He's like, if I show you this, you can't say. And I look and you just have me reacting. That is not what he showed me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What he showed me all.

[B]

I'll say.

[A]

I can't say what it was, but it was something that had words on it. That's all I'll say.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was not that, but, like, when I saw that, I was like.

[B]

I was never shown anything, so I was like. I was never sent a text with a weird image or any of that. When I saw that image of the. The crop circles, I was like. At first, I was like, oh, it's really like. And Then I tweeted it, and then I was like, looking further, and I was like, oh, it's a pretty good illusion. It is a really good magician. It's a good optical illusion. And then I tweeted, oh, yeah, case solved. Somebody found it. You know, and that's. For me, that's. That's all I cared about was the information. Let's look at the information. Oh, we found where it comes from. And some people are like, well, you gotta. We gotta talk about where. No, you just gotta do your own research. And like, that's it. Why do anything more 100, man. And. And obviously, you know, after things like that happen, I think naturally people's. People's conviction level will lower with all the information that he puts out. And that's a shame to him if he's trying to put out truthful information. It's a shame for us receiving that truthful information because now it has to go through the filter of all this other stuff that. That, you know, showed up not to be true.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so it's just unfortunate is what it is. But I, you know, there's no reason to crucify the guy for that. I think you can just make your own decisions and move on with your life.

[A]

I agreed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chris has been a lot of fun, man. You are. You are a fountain of information on this stuff. So it's fun talking with you about it. Your show is amazing. We'll have that link down below. We're also going to link your old YouTube channel too.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

So people can go watch all the stuff you do. You're blowing my mind a few times today, so I guess thanks for that. But it's great to finally meet you, man.

[B]

Likewise.

[A]

I've appreciated your support from afar and everything. That's been really cool. It's nice to put a name with the face.

[B]

Likewise. Love what you're doing here and thank you to your audience for. For let me have a space to chat about my shit.

[A]

Absolutely. Everyone go check out Area 50 briefed in Area 52 production.

[B]

All right, thanks.

[A]

I'll see you again soon. Everyone else, you know what it is. Give it a thought. Get back to me.

[B]

Peace.

[A]

Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that, like, button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below.

[B]

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