#364 - Cult Victim EXPOSES Murderous Psychotic “Guru” & his Master Slave Fantasy | Sarah Edmondson

Summary

Julian Dorey Podcast #364 – Cult Victim EXPOSES Murderous Psychotic “Guru” & his Master Slave Fantasy | Sarah Edmondson

Guest: Sarah Edmondson
Host: Julian Dorey
Date: December 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode of the Julian Dorey Podcast features Sarah Edmondson, an actress and high-profile whistleblower from the notorious NXIVM cult, who details her years inside the group, her involvement in the secret women’s group DOS, personal experiences with coercive control, her eventual escape, and efforts to expose leader Keith Raniere.

The conversation dives deep into the psychological mechanisms of cult indoctrination, the progression of abuse and control, and the aftermath for survivors. Sarah unpacks the emotional and logistical complexities of leaving NXIVM, her role in the media-driven takedown of Raniere, and the personal journey of healing, accountability, and advocacy since becoming public about her ordeal.

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Key Sections & Insights

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1. Setting the Scene: From Ordinary Life to Cult Entrapment (00:25–03:38)

• Sarah describes how routine aspects of her life (acting, friendships) were gradually eclipsed by her involvement in NXIVM
  • Friendships within NXIVM were always impacted by a hierarchy/ranking system, which undermined genuine intimacy.
  • Sarah notes the unhealthy dynamics:
    “Even with Mark and I, like, even though we were friends and business partners, he's still above me.” (03:02)
• Entry into NXIVM seemed innocuous: a self-improvement/executive training program.
• The organization’s manipulative structure quietly eroded boundaries between professional, personal, and spiritual domains.

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2. Manipulation Through Relationships & Power Dynamics (03:38–06:47)

• Sarah’s closest relationships inside the group (Lauren Salzman, Barbara Jeske) were always entangled with the cult’s internal hierarchy.
• Lauren Salzman (Nancy Salzman’s daughter): key confidante, mentor, and therapist—yet also a ‘superior’ within the cult.
• Insight: “It was a very one way ... she couldn't tell anyone what she was going through. Just like I couldn't. She couldn't either.” (06:47)
• Host draws parallels to Scientology and how arbitration/mediation mimicked high-control group counseling.

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3. Personal Life & the Difficulty of Maintaining Normalcy (06:47–08:58)

• Discussion of starting a family with “Nippy” (Sarah’s husband, also a participant):
  • Having her son Troy in 2014 began a shift in Sarah’s perspective: “I think was the beginning of the end for me because my values priority shifted again.” (08:17)
• Raniere’s methods of control extended into the familial realm—he discouraged members from outside relationships or having children unless it suited his ends.
  • He “had nicknames for people that were kind of like little digs at their issue. ... My nickname. My son's name is Troy, so he called me Mother of Troy.” (08:58)

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4. The “Rainbow Cultural Garden” & Non-Attachment Indoctrination (10:21–11:49)

• Children (like Sarah’s son) were to be raised through “Rainbow Cultural Garden,” a bizarre, expensive educational schema purportedly designed to create “children of the world”—but intended, according to Sarah, to sever attachments to parents:
  • “Sidebar. I think he was trying to separate children from their mothers to create a non attachment so that they’d become sociopaths. That's just my theory.” (11:16)
• She speculates this was deliberate groundwork for raising the next generation of emotionally detached followers.

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5. Mounting Red Flags & Cognitive Dissonance (22:52–24:15)

• Sarah recounts accumulating “red flags,” doubts, and disturbing incidents, which she was trained to minimize or “put on the shelf”:
  • “You have an incident with someone... you sort of put it up behind on the back... then eventually the shelf breaks.”
• The “Gambler's Paradox”: Cognitive investment in the group made it feel impossible to leave, even as negative experiences mounted:
  • “You keep throwing good money after bad, even as it's getting bad, because you're like, well, it's worked in the past.” (23:38)
• Chasing the initial “high” from early positive experiences in NXIVM kept her hooked.

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6. Introduction to DOS: Secrets, Collateral, and Vows of Obedience (35:02–45:48)

Key Timeline:

• January 2017: Lauren Salzman invites Sarah to join DOS (“Dominus Obsequious Sororium”).
  • “She wanted to invite me to something that was top secret and very exciting. Now she's visibly excited slash nervous about this thing, and she's. I can't tell you what it is until you give me collateral.” (36:01)
  • Collateral: Deep secrets, photos, manufactured blackmail to ensure secrecy and complicity.
• Process Normalization: Sarah explains how collateral, “penance,” and other tactics had been gradually normalized in prior years within the organization.
• Vow of Obedience: Sarah details how she gave in, feeling both internal and external pressure, and how the steps were incrementally unreasonable.
  • “Every step along the way, there was a commitment and a lie.” (39:18)

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7. The Master-Slave Dynamic, Readiness Drills, and Ritualized Abuse (55:10–59:57)

• The mechanics of DOS included extreme control:
  • All communication was couched in ‘master/slave’ language (“Good morning, master...”), with punitive “readiness drills” at all hours.
  • “I had to keep my phone on at night for, like, drills. ... I had to respond to her in a certain way.” (57:15)
• Sarah describes sleep deprivation, secrecy from her own husband, and the endless escalation of required collateral (including requests for the deed to her home).
• She reveals that being physically far from Albany and NXIVM’s core limited her exposure somewhat, but acknowledges the psychological entrapment kept her compliant.

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8. The Branding Ceremony: Orchestrated Trauma (63:34–75:11)

Branding Night:

• Sarah walks listeners through the traumatic, ritualized “branding” session, orchestrated by Lauren and Allison Mack:
  • After being blindfolded, stripped, and led into a small room at Allison Mack’s condo, the women were forcibly branded near their bikini lines with a cauterizing iron.
  • Horrific details of the procedure:
    “The first woman I saw was like flipping around on the table like an electrocuted fish. ... I was having my flesh cut open with a hot iron with no anesthetic and went somewhere else.” (71:33–72:17)

Key Quote:

• “Before it even started, we had to say, master, would you brand me? It would be an honor.” (73:09)

  • This was a direct command from Raniere to create an illusion of consent for legal protection.

• Aftermath: Emotional dissociation and trauma-bonding with fellow branded women.

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9. The Breaking Point: Awakening and Escape (77:49–93:00)

• The cumulative trauma and revelations (“the brand is KR—Keith’s initials!”) caused the final break.
• Mark Vicente (NXIVM recruiter) and Sarah corroborate their insider information, realize the scale of abuse, and decide to blow the whistle together.
• Sarah details the panic, fear, and logistical escape:
  • “I just have to get, I have to get out of here. I had to get out of here and stop the branding. I have to stop the brand.” (93:40)
• After confiding in her friend Mark, she files a formal complaint with the FBI, confronts the likelihood of legal and social retaliation, and joins with Catherine Oxenberg and others as central whistleblowers.

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10. Blowing the Lid Off: Legal Case, Media, and Fallout (103:08–115:54)

• Sarah describes the operational plan to maximize media exposure while minimizing legal risks:
  • “Initiated the coach tree... let one person know who we knew wasn't going to tell on us what was going on. And we just directed everybody to her.” (100:25)
• Worked with Catherine Oxenberg (celebrity and mother of a DOS victim), Bonnie Piesse, Mark Vicente, and her husband to coordinate testimony.
• Details on the Eastern District trial, rapid conviction, and Raniere’s 120-year sentence.

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11. Aftermath: Healing, Accountability, and Advocacy (115:54–138:12)

• The shock of going public in the New York Times (“I felt so alone... There's just so many people that have been affected by this, and no one's, like, come out and really owned it in the same way.” (115:45))
• Dealing with stigma, shame, and trauma—both personal and for her family (her young son Troy).
• Rebuilding marriage and parenting with Nippy—using their podcast, “A Little Bit Culty,” as therapeutic/advocacy tool.
• Host highlights impact: “You coming out, has saved countless, countless people who were in it and are able to get out and people who would have been in it and now never did.” (147:10)
• Sarah is currently working on a resource book for college-aged students to recognize red flags before getting ensnared in cults or high-control groups.

Sarah’s Advice to Those in Cults (146:12):

“Don’t tell anybody in your group ... Go outside the organization. Do some research. ... There’s so much resources on the other side that are available for people.”

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12. Reflections on Forgiveness and Life After Cult (133:20–144:39)

• On Lauren Salzman:
  “Yes. Yeah, absolutely. She wrote a really beautiful letter that I got through my lawyer, and she knows that I forgive her.” (133:22)
• On Keith Raniere:
  “No. ... Rotten in hell.” (134:48)
• On self-forgiveness and healing:
  “Yeah, I do. It's. It's been a long healing journey together. But, yeah. Yeah, I do.” (135:34)
• Sarah expresses gratitude for her family, new perspective, and the resilience to build a meaningful life beyond trauma.
• She emphasizes the ongoing nature of recovery, role of therapy, importance of supportive family/community, and a pragmatic, humble approach to spirituality and meaning.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On indoctrination’s slow trap:

  • “What doesn't happen is you join a personal development group and they say, hey, in 12 years, would you like the leader's initials seared into your flesh?” (39:08)

• On the cult’s dialectic:

  • “You're not a victim ... If something fucks up in your life, you either had expectations that were off or you, you know, miss certain things. ... But the thing is, I was a victim because I was lied to.” (49:20)

• Host on public reaction:

  • “People, you know, commenters will be like, how could you ever fall for this? I'm like, dude—it could happen. Very easily.” (39:06)

• Sarah on trusting one's gut:

  • “Teaching them how to trust their gut and to, to voice. Like ... a couple times where Troy's been like, mom, I've said, no, don't cross my boundary. And I'm like, shit, you're right.” (122:52)

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Major Timestamps

• 00:25 — Sarah begins describing trauma of branding & secret rituals
• 03:02 — Discussion of hierarchical, abnormal friendships in NXIVM
• 06:47 — Insights into the double life inside DOS and power imbalance
• 08:58 — Raniere’s manipulation of maternal instincts and control over procreation
• 22:52 — Dissecting red flags, cognitive dissonance, and “gambler’s paradox”
• 35:02 — Introduction to DOS; vows and giving “collateral”
• 55:10 — Master/slave dynamic and the escalation of control via readiness drills
• 63:34–75:11 — The branding ceremony: detailed, harrowing account
• 81:18 — Realizing the brand is Keith Raniere’s initials
• 84:41 — Decision to go to FBI; mechanics of blowing the whistle
• 103:08 — Coordinating whistleblowing with Mark, Bonnie, Catherine Oxenberg
• 115:54 — The impact and aftermath of going public
• 135:34 — On self-forgiveness and moving forward

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Further Resources

• Sarah's memoir: “Scarred” ([linked in episode)
• Podcast: “A Little Bit Culty” (Sarah & Nippy)
• Website for resources: alittlebitculty.com/resources
• The HBO Series: “The Vow” (features Sarah and many key figures/interviews)

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Tone and Style

Candid, raw, sometimes darkly humorous, this conversation maintains a respectful, empathic tone. Julian provides space for Sarah’s unvarnished narrative, asks nuanced questions, and frequently validates her emotions and choices, making the episode emotionally engaging, accessible, and affirming for survivors.

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For Listeners

This episode is vital listening for anyone interested in cult dynamics, true crime, psychological abuse, or survivor stories of resilience and advocacy. It offers a rare, first-person view into the inner workings of a modern cult, the all-consuming nature of coercive control, and a roadmap for resistance, escape, and the difficult but essential road to personal healing and collective justice.

Transcript

[Sarah Edmondson]

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If I really go there, oh my God. It just f s with my head dos. That was the secret women's group within. Here's Lauren, who I would do anything to spend time with before I committed. She did tell me that I was gonna get this tattoo. Lauren wanted to make this a special night. So we get blindfolded, drives us somewhere. And I know exactly where I am. I'm in Alice and Max Condo. And now we're gonna get what I thought was my tattoo is now the brand. Before it even started. We had to say, master, would you brand me? It would be an honor. First we were wearing masks because of the smell of the flesh. The first woman I saw was like flipping around on the table like an electrocuted fish. Yeah. And by the time it got to me, I was having my flesh cut open with a hot iron with no anesthet and went somewhere else. Honestly, sorry.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, having a three year old during this time kind of forced us to get our together.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do you forgive yourself too?

[Sarah Edmondson]

You're a good interviewer. Wow.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you.

So you are deep inside this organization Nexium, which you believe to be an executive, you know, betterment and recruiting program. You're a great recruiter for this guy Keith Ranieri, who claims to be a celibate monk. Obviously we know that is not the truth at all. But he's this, you know, in a way, sadistic sociopathic leader who is using this organization as a front to basically recruit his harem and then hide it behind some of the men that he would recruit as well. They didn't really give a about and you don't know any of that from behind there. But with now that you're deep into the organization, you found your husband in the organization. You married him nippy. You also pretty much put your whole life into it. Your acting career goes on to the back burner and you're focused on this and making money here, putting your own money up to even fund A lot of the endeavors, I would imagine most of your relationships at this point on a day to day friendship wise and who you confide in are all people involved with the organization. So who we've talked about, Mark Vicente, and we can get deeper into that as well. But like, who were these other people who were, you know, some of your girlfriends in the organization and, and do you think those relationships had any normalcy to them whatsoever?

[Sarah Edmondson]

The ones that were most normal were the people that I knew before. So my girlfriends that were acting friends of mine that like I brought with me and then we did it together. Oh, they came in, they came in and then I'm still friends with some of them. Those are the most normal. But like, generally when you have a ranking system with your friendship, it's not healthy. Like, even with Mark and I, like, even though we were friends and business partners, he's still above me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So there's a power differential there. And there were times, even with my girlfriends that I was close to, they didn't really know how I really felt. If I had a problem because I couldn't communicate that because it wouldn't have been appropriate.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It wouldn't have been for the power dynamics.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I couldn't say, like, I'm not happy with something because as far as everything was, everyone was concerned. This is the best thing ever. So if I wasn't, I couldn't be like, yeah, I'm not getting paid. Like that would have been. I could have been in major trouble for expressing like a negative sentiment.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So. But you were. Who was the, the Smallville actress? Mack.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Allison Mack.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Allison Mack, yeah. Was she above you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, I was above her.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You were above her?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Which was also weird because I. When she, they started that acting program, she was the teacher of it. So now she was my teacher, like teaching me. And I just didn't.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I was like, oh, they started the acting program.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, she, they. So Keith gave her that golden ticket. Right. Like similarly, by the way, just to backtrack for a second. Like, Nancy got given that, you know, the rank of, of proctor or sorry, of prefect. So vanguard and prefect. Prefect, yeah. Head of the school. That's like her, you know, everything she'd ever wanted, she gets to have the power. That was her power trip. Right. And so like he did the same thing for Allison, you know, and in many ways for me too. Like I get to be the head of my little school. Right. So we each got our, you know, this thing that we wanted and then I. So I have to answer your question. I Have my girlfriends. I had a couple people in the company that were. I felt close with. So Barbara Jeske was one of them. She was the woman I just showed you that was on the.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Died of cancer.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Died of cancer. She was. She was somebody that I could also confide in also because she didn't like Claire very much. So I felt like I could be honest with Claire Bronfman. Claire Bronfman, Yeah. And then the other person I was closest to is Lauren Salzman, so Nancy's daughter. So she married us. She was our son's godmother. She was probably the person I would go to the most for. Like, if I, you know, if like Nippy and I were fighting and I needed like, you know, someone to help us, she would. She or Nancy would like. They did this thing called arbitration, which is like mediation, like couples counseling.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Very Scientology of them.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, I know super Scientology. So she. She knew like, everything that was going on for me and. And. Which is a weird power dynamic also because she's my best friend, but she's also my therapist. She's also the head of education. So if I'm going to get promoted in any.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She's above you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

She's above me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, she's above me. So if I. If I'm gonna, like, go. Anything that I'm gonna do to grow, she's got to approve.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But. So you meet her in the. Or you didn't know her before the organization?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Looking back on it, obviously we know she was a part of this cult and did some bad things and all that. When you just look at it on a personal level of when you first met her, obviously she's above you in power dynamics. But.

Looking back on it now, was it a normal, somewhat normal relationship building endeavor or does it seem dystopian in hindsight?

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was a mixture of both. Like, Lauren would come to Vancouver and like, we'd go get our nails done like women do, and we'd shop and go drink Matcha and go for a walk on the seawall. And that was very normal, but dystopian in that.

I mean, it wasn't honest because she couldn't. As far as I knew, she was single. You know, I didn't know that she was part of.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So like, she couldn't. It was a very one way. Like, in retrospect, it was like, that must have been a very hard relationship for her because she couldn't tell anybody what she was going through. Just like I couldn't. She couldn't either.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. She's a part for people out there. She was a part of Dawson, you know, Keith Harem. But would you talk about, like, would you talk about dating or stuff like that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

There was times when I'd be like, you know, because we were. We were the same. She was a year older. So, you know, I was having a child. I had a child late, like Nippy, and I had Troy when I was 36. That. Which is not that late for the. For the world, but, like, you know, it's later in life. Yeah. And then I had my second child at 42, which is definitely late.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And she was a year older. And I remember, like, that being, I think, being really hard for her because she wanted.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She wanted kids.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She wanted kids. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did you. I didn't ask you that earlier when we were talking, did you always want kids?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Always wanted kids.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Always wanted them, yeah. So when you marry Nippy, you're like, we're going to start a family. And there wasn't a thought of like, well, we're in this thing. Maybe we can't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, no. 100%. That was something we talked about.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He's. He's one of five. And so he. Like, if we'd started earlier, we probably would have had more, but.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. That shop's closed.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did. Did.

Did. There's always adoption.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, that's.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But did. Having a child.

Well, obviously it changes you, but did it change any of your perspective on what you were doing for a living?

[Sarah Edmondson]

100%. So having Troy in 2014.

I think was the beginning of the end for me because my values priority shifted again.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Values priority.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Remember the hierarchy we talked about earlier? Now my family and being a mom was more important, and so I would choose that. And I missed out on certain things like, that I would normally have never missed out on because I was. I had a baby.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What did Keith think of that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, you know, he had. I don't know if you know this, but he had nicknames for people that were kind of like little digs at their issue. And Lauren, for example, was forlorn because she would be suffering. Like, she'd be morose and not happy. And that was his way of being like, you got to get. You know, get on the. On the path.

My nickname. My son's name is Troy, so he called me Mother of Troy. And I at the time thought it was just kind of like, oh, mother of Troy. But I think it was his dig. He had all these women around him who were waiting to have his baby. This is What I found out after the fact, I didn't know this then. Right. But all the women in his harem that were his spiritual wives were my age, if not a little bit younger, but some are a bit older, too, who wanted to have kids. And he has promised them children, but they had to, like, you know, get in line or work their. Or whatever. And Lauren was one of those people. I didn't know this till the trial that she'd been. He was. Remember, people danked. Yeah, he dangled. You know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did he ever have kids?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Yeah. So two crazy stories. There was one.

There was one woman who disappeared when. And I. I don't remember the timeline. It's in the book. Who was, like, one of his. He was like his legal liaison who, like, disappeared. Like, I remember I go back and forth, and one day I was like, where's Kristen? And I'm sorry, I'm telling the story out of order. Backtracked to a few years before that. A baby appeared in the scene. And I was like, where's this baby from? And Barb Jeske, the woman I just told you about, had said that her friend from Michigan and childhood, like, died in childbirth, and she, like, inherited this baby. And now, like, she was the godmother in no Show. She was going to adopt this baby and. But the whole organization was going to raise her. Raise him.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The organization was going to raise the baby.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Like, I know. And Kristen, this woman that was Keith's legal woman, kind of, like, stepped up to do that because she didn't have a baby of her own. And then Keith created. This is a whole. Okay. There's so many rabbit holes. Started Rainbow, which is a rainbow multicultural garden, which was like a program for children to learn many languages as they were being raised. So they'd be children of the world, and not, like, American or Russian or Chinese or Hindu, whatever. They'd be rainbow babies.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Also very Scientology.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. So that was a. That was an experiment which I dabbled in. We had a nanny who spoke Spanish to Troy, but I wasn't, like, full rainbow, because, by the way, it was 25 an hour to random people that would get $10 an hour, and the other $15 would go to the Rainbow organization. So I was, like, always thought that that was one of the.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Listen, money laundering is important, but this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Is one of the things that was going on. Remember, I told you after Troy was born, when things started to unravel for me, I was like, wait, why would I spend $25 an hour? And part of that's Going like, what's it going to? And like, anytime I question that, I get in trouble. So I just ended up paying like my own Spanish speaking nanny to help me with Troy. Because I thought the idea of having a different language was great. And, you know, that's fine in theory. Sidebar. I think he was trying to separate children from their mothers to create a non attachment so that they'd become sociopaths. That's just my theory.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I think you're 1000% right about that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Because these nannies were supposed to step in like from birth.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He called you son of. He called you mother, Troy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Which as you said, is a dig. It's a dig that you're a mom of a kid that he doesn't. That he thinks is going to pull you from the organization. So what would be better for someone psycho like that than to pull him from you and make him a little demon?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You know, it's. Sadly, it makes all the sense in the world.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yep. So.

Unless. What were we talking about just before that? We were talking about Rainbow. Oh, yeah. Okay. The chill. You asked me about the child.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yes. Changing you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And your view on the organization.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. But you also asked me about the kid. Long story short.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, yeah, his kids.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. This kid and this woman, Kristen. One day I'm like, where's Kristen? Where's Galen? He's the little kid. And Lauren said that she went crazy, kidnapped Galen, and she's living on the streets. And I was like, what? Like, are we looking for them? Like, what's happening? And like, yeah, she just lost, like. So what was what I was told is that she, like, she left. Now, keep in mind, I'm going back and forth to Albany. So I don't know when this happened. I wasn't there when it happened. But all I know is that one day she's there and one day they're not. And no one really seems to be concerned about them.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Is this be for or after you have Troy?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't remember. I'd have to look at the timeline. Is around this, around that time? Maybe a little bit. I don't remember when Kristen left.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Maybe because it'd be interesting. Your biological evolutionary instincts have now kicked into gear. Having a kid of your own. So you're thinking about other kids in relation to safety. 100 the way you haven't before, if that were the case.

[Sarah Edmondson]

100%.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

He had a kid with. So I'm going to jump ahead in time for a minute. I leave, we do the whole whistleblowing thing.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, people get to that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, well, we'll get to that. In that time we left, a bunch of people left with us and he. They still had one more V week after US Vanguard week. And it was like 80 people show up and at that V week he announces that he's having a baby with Mariana Fernandez, who's one of the three Mexican sisters that had come over as.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Teenagers that he essentially abducted and forced into sex slavery.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He had sexual relationships with all three sisters, we now know from the trial.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

When they were underage.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And so Mariana is, I guess she's an adult now. I mean, she's in her 20s or 30s at this point. But people told me who were at that V week, like, you know, a bunch of people just left. High ranking people, Mark Vicente, Sarah Edmondson, Nippy. A bunch of people have left. There's been this big fallout and now Keith is going up on stage and saying, hi, I'm now having a baby with Mariana. But wait, you were celibate? But no one's talking about that. Like he's publicly telling the community that he's gonna have a baby.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

There's an immaculate conception.

[Sarah Edmondson]

His is magic sperm. I don't know how come.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Fought the good fight.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Made the jump.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sidebar. All these cults we talk about a little bit culty. Like every single dude that's like running these things has some sort of like, sorry, magic penis that's gonna like, they always, they always like, what the.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like, these cults are run by dudes that would drive like one of those four by fours that's 20ft off the ground that just screams like, I have a small penis.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And so it would make sense that they have to show off their. Some form of their endowment or above you endowment to, you know, compromise or whatever it is for their lack of endowment. Yeah, I would imagine, right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Apparently.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did that testimony ever come out? Well, we talked about him in that way.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Apparently he. He was. He was a hard time keeping it up. That's what we found out.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Sorry to hear that, Keith. Yeah, There's a pill for that if you need it, buddy. That's all right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, God, I'm so afraid.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He deserves it. It's okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I'm fully aware that there's like so much more to cover of how, like in the last few years and I'm trying to figure out how to like, pace myself about what we.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Can we just. Yeah, yeah, just. We'll go.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Step by step. That's all right. Don't worry about it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

All right.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I'll be. I'll be the one you decide.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I just have to. I just have to say, like, you know, most people book me, like, if I'm doing an interview, it's like an hour and like this last chunk of how I wake up and how I get out and everything is so complicated. There's so many things like this happened and. But to understand how that happened, you have to understand what was taught to us like eight years before and like how the curriculum and how the indoctrination set up this to make it okay for me to do this. And it's like it. It sometimes just hurts my brain to try to have to like, set it all up. So I just have to say up front, like, it's very complex and it's 12 years of, of UCL brainwashing, indoctrination. Same thing, really, that led to it. And it's. You know, one of the reasons why I wrote Scarred is so that it would be on paper if people wanted to go through the whole progression. So I'LL I'll handle as much as I can, but I'm. I'm also aware of it being, like, daunting a little bit. You know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Absolutely. I want you to feel comfortable talking about what you want to talk about. And I'm sure everyone out there understands it's an unfathomable situation that you were brave enough to be able to break out of the chains of. And there's a lot of people, you've even laid it out today who are still in the chains of that brainwashing. So kudos to you for being able to do that and also save a lot of people, help get them out, help stop people from ever joining that at Nexium or an organization like it. So I know you get really. And I understand this, concerned with having every detail right and making sure people understand all the context. But, like, there's some blanks people can fill in, too. So don't. If. If we miss some stuff, you also, as you said, we'll have the link to scarred down below the book where you lay this all out perfectly so that if people want to get every single step, it'll be in there. But, like, this is just a conversation, so appreciate that. Don't worry about it at all. But we got into this because we were talking about how when you had Troy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's where the mass comes off a little bit.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Now, what was that?

What were some of the main things that kind of came off for you there?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, I just, you know, I was a mother, and it was. It was way more meaningful to do that to be a mother and to be with him and to raise him. And, you know, it's. Ironically, one of the sort of tenants of Nexium was this concept of an inner deficiency, which.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Inner deficiency?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, we haven't talked about that yet. But basically what it was was that.

And other modalities and other sort of religions and groups or whatever have their own version of this is that everyone feels like this void and this hole, and they're trying to fill it with external things. Like Buddhism would say, nothing from the outside fills the hole. Like we're.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, so something like even wanting a baby was an example of me trying to fill the inner deficiency. Right. Which is a very, very cruel thing to do to somebody who wants to be a mother.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The cruelest.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The cruelest. And that was 100% done to the other women who wanted it. And, like. Well, you got to evolve your attachment to it in order to get it And I remember even being in a training before I had Troy and someone being like, what if you never have a baby? Like, try to push on my. My non integrated fixation. Right. My desire to have a child. And again, like I said earlier, I. I always took the good of the bad. I took what I wanted from it and was like, I'm. I'm. I'm still gonna have a baby. Like, you're not gonna take. But also the back of my mind's like, is this just an attachment? So me getting married to Nippy and having a baby, I even heard from people who stayed longer than me. Nancy told people, well, of course she's not fully committed. Her deficiency was filled with getting married to Nippy and having a. Having Troy. Like as if that made me go off the path because I just got my deficiency filled. Like in that world, that was me taking the happy path versus the joy path. Does that make sense?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

100.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's up.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's so up. It's completely up. And every cult, by the way, have. Has its version of that. Like you're not really committed. You're not doing the work because you're like having something. In religious cults, it's like ungodly to pursue these materialistic pursuits and things like that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. It's kind of like with a parasite, they need your blood. Right. So if you decide, not that this scientifically makes sense, but bear with me, if you decide to flow your blood somewhere else, the parasites go, no, no, no, don't do that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I need it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I need it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And it's so ironic that you said that because there's a whole class called Parasite Producer about parasites in Nexium. Yeah. You just.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

They were out in front of everybody.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. You want it to be a producer, not a parasite. Parasite was dependent on other people. And you were trying to develop your producer strategies and create more than you were taking.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And so don't be dependent on people who exist outside of here because they can't possibly understand. But the understanding there is that you have to be dependent on what's here. But that's not parasitic.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, no, because we can't be a.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Parasite because we're teaching you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I didn't. I didn't see till I left just how freaking. I mean, we were. We were so dependent on everything in the organization, and some people more than others. I think that's actually in this book, or maybe it's the next one where I remember when I invited Ali Mack to my Our wedding. And she's like, let me check with Keith. And I was like, what?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like Ali Mack was the Smallwood Smallville actor. Actress.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And I was like, what is he, your daddy? Like, we have to check with Keith. Like, yeah, you can't make your own.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Decisions so that you started to. It sounds like there were communication patterns. You even started to see where you're like, wait a minute, that's not normal.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There were so many things. So when people ask me, like, what were the red flags? I already told you the red flags from day one. And there were so many things along the way that I couldn't wrap my head around or didn't understand what I was looking at. In. In the recovery space, they call it putting it on the shelf. Same thing in domestic violence. It's like you have an incident with someone, you sort of put it up behind on the back, like, back burner. Like, put it on the shelf. Put that moment on the shelf that. Did you just say no? And you put it on the shelf and then eventually the shelf breaks. And that's when you. That's when you wake up. It's not one thing that wakes you up. It's like the shelf just gets too heavy and you go, oh, I was m. Is an occult.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yes. It's. It's also like.

Subconsciously, if you're not recognizing that shelf with that example, you know, the. The.

Gambler'S paradox, which, by the way, deep we got to bring in that chair when she comes in. I just realized that. Thanks, bro. But gamblers will get deep on, you know, losing money, and they're trying to get their chips back or whatever, and they start throwing good money after bed. They're like, well, I'm already this deep. I gotta keep throwing money after it in a way before you recognize, like, oh, I'm in a cult. Or like, this shelf is crashing down. You keep throwing good money after bad, even as it's getting bad, because you're like, well, it's worked in the past, so we just must be on our way to making it work. Yeah, right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That in combination with the sort of like chasing the high, chasing the dragon. Like, my first five day was so powerful. I kept trying to get that back and I never really did. Like, I had other moments that were little nuggets of usefulness. But, like, really it all happened at the beginning.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So it's like they. They anchored you because in your first five day training, that's where you had talked about and what is not going to be the previous episode it's where you talked about that it was like the massive therapy session where they got you in touch with some of your own insecurities or underlying issues and root causes. So the high of that, that came out of it, where you actually maybe did put your finger on some things that were wrong in your life, made you psychologically attached to the source.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That allowed you to see that. And the source in this case was them. So if they did this, then they're going to lead you right the rest of the way.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yep. And that became the same template for what happened in dos.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right, let's talk about that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ready to go there?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. So can I see your book, if you don't mind, for a second?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So.

If you guys read Scarred, which we will have linked down below, you'll see that on the COVID is a picture of you, Sarah, where you are showing the brand that will tell the story of. That happens when you get pulled into dos, which you said now you. You do not have this anymore, right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Good for you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's the. Not as a happy ending, but that's the. Yeah. How I kept it for many years because. Well, two and a half years or so, because I wanted. I needed it as proof. And I know I'm jumping ahead for a second, but when we decided to whistleblow, we were exposing, you know, physical abuse. But after many years of Keith being an emotional abuser, which is very hard to prove.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He's been coercively controlling people. And I know you've covered that with Nadine and also with Sarma. Very difficult to show that someone's being coercive with you and, And. And lying to you and getting you to do something that you would never have done otherwise. But now we had physical proof.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And so when I did interviews and that. That's the COVID of what was later. What was on the New York Times. This picture.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. I mean, it's a. It is a. You don't forget that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You don't forget seeing, like, everything about that. There's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah, that. That's. That's what I. And when I. From New York Times, I did like 2020, and I did Dr. Oz, and I was, like, doing everything I could to stop NXIVM from growing and doing everything that I could to. To, you know, free the slaves, essentially. So I needed it as proof. I didn't show it on camera, but, like, I would be interviewed and be like, I need to show you this so you can see it, especially the women they'd be like, horrified. Horrified.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, yeah. It's. I mean.

I remember in the vow when, when you told that story. I remember that episode. And we'll. We'll go through it, but.

What was I thinking of there? God damn it. There was a parallel. I was thinking of when I saw that. That was like, so.

Oh, I know what I was thinking of. It was to me, you hear all these stories about, you know, the. The adult male who abuses a 10 year old boy or something and then tells them, oh, it's. It's our. It's our little secret.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You can't.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You can't tell anyone about this. Same exact, same exact vibes with this. It. Like, I don't know if any of them are more sinister than they're all. And they're all sinister. But like, when I was seeing that, I was like that the psychology is 100. I mean, maybe some people can correct me who are experts, but it seems 100 lined up. Would you say that's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, yeah. I mean, the whole dos. So that was the secret women's group within Nexium that I was invited to by Lauren was supposed to be a secret. It's supposed to be a secret sorority, like the men sorority. Sorority. So, you know, men called it that. They call the sorority.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, but he got it. Keith had an exception as the master. He got to be the one male who's conveniently at the head of it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right. Which of course was withheld when Lauren asked me to join. I was invited to a women's only sorority.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

When is this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

This would have been in January of 2017. So it's like six months before I left.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right towards the end.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Now.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Now you're close with Lauren. Lauren is the godmother to your child. She was the officiant at your wedding prior to this first interaction where she invites you to this. Like you said, she come into town, you go get your nails done together, hang out. You guys are best friends.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Fair to say.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Fair to say. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay. And it felt normal. Ish.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Okay. Except I didn't know much about her personal life, but she knew everything about my personal life.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So she would. That I'd asked you that, like, would you ask about dating? And she'd say a little bit here and there. But she'd get you off it, basically.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And where things were probably more equal is like, you know, she would help me with certain things. Emotionally. I was. I've always been. You can see by my healthy snacks I'm the health nerd. Right. And so I'd come into her house and be like, you need to get on adaptogens and let's get you. You know, like, I would. I was always helping her with her. Like, that's where it was maybe a little bit more balanced. I didn't know about her romantic life, but, like, you know, good friendship is not just one way. It's. So that's. That's where it kind of was more even. But she was somebody there wasn't. I had no secrets from her. She was right. She knew everything that was going on for me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So that was another them. The vow with multiple women, including Lauren, where it'd be like, oh, they would lose, like, a lot of weight and suddenly get real skinny. And. And I guess it was all for trying to appeal to Keith because they were part of this organization.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. They wanted, like. So Lauren and I are like the exact same height, and I'm like approximately 120 pounds. She was 100 pounds. So 20 pounds smaller than I am right now when I left. And. Yeah, very, very thin and. Yeah. And most, like, I was probably. I was very thin, too, when I was at Nexium, because not. I wasn't following that diet, but it's just sort of like that was the. That was the aesthetic. I was probably like 110, 112 pounds.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Most of my time There was her mother, Nancy. Was she married?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, she was divorced. Interesting.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How young was Lauren when she got divorced?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I want to say teenager, but I don't remember exact when. But Lauren got pulled in an exam at the age of like, 18. She was very young.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Younger than I was.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, like, ripe for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, super ripe.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Being taken.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And not only that, God had got a job with Nexium at 18. Around that. Around the time that she started, like, she started working for, like, being a coach and, you know, got a job in Nexium right away.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Was her mother aware that she was in the sorority?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, she was not. No. Nancy was not aware of DOS until. Until we blew it up. Nope.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's fascinating.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And at some point she became aware because we were calling it out. And then Keith convinced her that it wasn't a problem. And then, you know, the FBI got involved and she was aware that it was a problem.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's a problem.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay, but keep in mind, like, both Nancy and Lauren were with Keith at different times. Like, he was mother daughtering it. Keith was with Nancy at the time.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He was with Nancy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, in the early days.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, I'll leave that one there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Just allegedly no way to prove that. Allegedly. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay. So I don't know if that protects us. Yeah, I guess he didn't have preferences, but. Okay. Yeah, so that was a.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Sorry.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

No, in person.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It was in person in January 22nd.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I haven't told the story in so long. She came to Vancouver to do a training and this is just after Pam died. So this is Pam K for it's the one. The second Cancer.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Turbo Cancer.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Turbo Cancer. Yeah. This was in. That funeral was in like January of 24 of 2017.

Lauren comes out to Vancouver. She's literally on. Sleeping on my couch because she. And she could have like, she could have afforded to stay in a hotel. But she wanted to, like, hang out and, like, be close. And she said she had something she wanted to ask me. She was really excited, a bit nervous about it. I actually thought that I was getting feed. Like I was going to be in trouble for something. I thought I was getting feedback because that's often what would happen. Like, she. If a higher up said they wanted to talk to you, it was like, yeah, it was like, oh, what did I do wrong? You know, what's. What do I have to do to fix it? You know, we had to fill. If there was. If we screwed up, we had to fill out a breach form.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

A breach form?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Same as Scientology, by the way. Different name. They called it a different form. I forget what it's called now. But, yeah, fill out a breach for. I'm like, this was my breach. I said I was going to do this, and I did this instead. This is how I'm going to fix my. This is how my breach affects all of humanity. I'm going to fix it by human.

I know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Red flags.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know. Red flag. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So, yeah, she says she wants to. She wanted to invite me to something. I'm going to. I have. I literally not told the story in years, so I'm going to. I'm going to butcher. It's all in the book. But basically, she. She. The first question she asked me is, how committed are you to migrate? Are you to your growth?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

To your growth. Turns it on you again.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, right. 100%. Always committed. Yeah, yeah. I'm green sash now. Keep in mind, Troy would have been almost three, and I was pulling back and I was. In terms of my growth and the stripe path, I hadn't been promoted since becoming a green sash, so I was feeling kind of like stagnating in my growth. Here's Lauren, who I would do anything to spend time with because I really admire and respect her saying, you know, asking me these questions like, what, What's. Where is this leading? And she says, what are you willing to do for your growth? I'm like, well, anything. Great. And she invites me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You use that word, anything?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, something like that. Like, I mean, but, like, within reason.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, you know, like a normal person.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like a normal person, yeah. What did she say to me next? She wanted to invite me to something that was top secret and very exciting. Now she's visibly excited slash nervous about this thing, and she's. I can't tell you what it is until you give me collateral again. This is where. Where it gets complicated. Collateral had been introduced into the organization years before as a concept that people in Nexium would, if they were committed to something, put collateral down as. As proof of their commitment. And it could be anything, like money or services. Like, if I don't do this and this is my collateral and I'm gonna like, put a hundred dollars towards V week funds or whatever. Whatever they were gonna do. And so collateral was very normal, but normalized by this point. So I'm giving her collateral to hold just to hear about this thing so that if I don't want to do it, she's going to hold the collateral because it has to be. It's top secret.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Had you ever had like some sort of subconscious thought about. Before this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

About.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's a little up.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

About the collateral thing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How did you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I. I compartmentalized. I. So remember I said I'd stop doing certain things.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I. That. That's when they introduced penance, which is, by the way, very religious penance and collateral. Years before, I just didn't really do it. Like it had become normal. And I was sort of like. I knew people were doing it, but people would do things like if they didn't.

Complete their goals, they would like, get up and do burpees in the snow at 2:00am you know, or whatever, some thing like that. And I just never did it. I just thought that's really dumb. But I went along with it because, remember, I'm being a good girl and so. And I'm in Vancouver. No one's checking on me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. So I'm like, you're just far enough outside to be. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I'm texting like. Like we did. We had to do this thing where people, if they. We were in a group and if someone else didn't do their goals, we had to like, stand for them and like, not do anything. I'm like completed my standing. Didn't do it because all of her text. No one's watching me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So that kind of thing. So when. When anyone's watching this and they're going like, that's just so dumb. It's. It's. It. It's very. It's. It's like so cringe for me to even say it because it's whatever. Okay.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

No, but you. Here's why you shouldn't feel that way. You're talking about something that you join up in in 2005 or 2006. They manipulate you, as we've laid out multiple times today, into thinking you're finding things in yourself. And then they slowly chip away and carefully, manipulatively, destructively introduce you to these anchored ideas over and over and over again. And each one just gets a little heavier than the last one to the point that you don't even know you're fucking 100ft under. What, below sea level?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

At this point, it's not like I think when it. When I've seen comments on. On videos before where people are talking about cults and things like that, and people, you know, commenters will be like, how could you ever fall for this? I'm like, dude.

It could happen.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Very easily.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And what doesn't happen is you join a personal development group and they say, hey, in 12 years, would you like the leader's initials seared into your flesh?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And you go, oh, let me think about that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

No, they never start there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, never starts there. And as I'm like, going back and this, like, I had to explain it many, many times, like, A to the lawyers, B to the FBI, see, you know, to New York Times. It's a little jumbly in my head, the order of events between getting invited to dos and the branding. So if we can kind of like just sort of like accordion that. Yep. The point is, is that every step along the way, there was a commitment and a lie. Like, and this is where it's really important to understand is I was invited to a women's only sorority that was supposed to be for. And I even said point blank, like, is Keith involved in this? Does Keith know about? Because I. I had the foresight to know that, like, Keith. Keith had a lot of control over everybody. It's like, I'm being invited something Keith doesn't know. Straight up lied to me. Keith doesn't know anything about. This has nothing to do with Keith. This is something the women started using some of the tools from Nexi and some of the term tools from janesse, which is the women's only group that we talked about earlier to really hold each other accountable. And we're going to enter into, like, a high level.

You know, coach, coachee agreement. And part of that is you taking a vow of obedience.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

A vow of obedience.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was a term that she says.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Is right away in January 2017.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, this is after I've given collateral after I've given collateral about that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So at the beginning she says, so you got to give me collateral.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So what did you hear about it? So I wrote a handwritten confession about, like that I did in my 20s that I wouldn't want anyone so she's like, write something down that you wouldn't want people to know so that she could hold it, so that. To make sure that I never spoke about it if I decide to not go through with it. Do you know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like leverage, Skull and Bone.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, it's. Yeah, Fight Club. It's.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's Next level, so. And it. But also has that kind of the thrilling part of it. It has that element to it. Do you know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You're a part of something.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I'm part of something. And Lauren's inviting me, and it can't be bad because she loves me. So I write like, you know, I did. Blah, blah, blah. You know, I tried this. That.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Blah, blah. Did you make stuff up or was it real?

[Sarah Edmondson]

The first time was real. And she took a photo of it, sent it to somebody, and told me it wasn't bad enough. So then I had to make stuff up because I'm a good girl, right? I mean, I did acid when I was 15 or 16, and, like, yeah, but that's. That.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's, you know, flex.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's a little whatever.

Really?

That made it worse. I don't remember what I said it was, but it was. It was bad enough that I wouldn't want it, like, photographed and put on Instagram, you know what I mean? So once she has my collateral, she tells me what it is. It's a. It's a group of women who are like, a badass boot camp for women. And it's like, oh, all people that I know and some people that I don't know, and we're gonna really hold each other accountable. And she's like, nothing has made me grow more than this thing.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

A badass boot camp for women. Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I'm gonna do it with Lauren and other people that I don't even know. And it's like Freemasons, but for women. And it's top secret.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, she said that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Freemasons, but for women.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. I ain't gonna lie, Sarah. I've been out right there and, like, you can take that third eye, shove it right up your ass.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Unfortunately, I didn't know much Freemasons at the time, so I don't know much more.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You do now.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I do now.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And take a vow of obedience. But, like, I might. But I'm like, wait, so what if you tell me to rob a bank? No, she's like, sarah, it's for your growth. Like, I'm going to tell you to, like, you know, do x Y and Z towards your goals. And it's going to be all for, you know, for you. But, like, now you're accountable because, like, I'm here to guide you through it. And really what I wanted is her guidance. Like, to have somebody like Nancy or Lauren work with you individually in that setting was like, it's like having your, you know, someone you really look up.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

To, but you didn't know. Nancy's not involved.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I knew Nancy wasn't involved.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Because she said, but I'm saying having someone like Lauren. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I was always. Yeah, I was always trying to get their time. Like, if they were gonna spend time with you and help you work and work through something, it was like. Yes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You felt drawn.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was. I mean, they were for better or for worse. They were both really good at the methodology. Like, if I was struggling with something, I would spend an hour with them and it'd be better. They were. She was a therapist. Like, that's what they both were to me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What do you think she would do? Is it just like, they were so good at mirroring what you said and bouncing it back to you to make you feel better about yourself?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, it was usually. It depends on what it was, but usually it was like getting to the core issue behind, like, usually something childhood related. It's basically therapy. Like, what. What was the core wound? Or like, what was I making it mean? Or even just even remember talking about options. You know, sometimes a therapy session within that context would be like seeing new options you'd never seen before, which made me feel better. Or, you know, just seeing something from a new perspective, reframing, which is very like, you know, therapy 101. Like, what if that's not what happened? What? It was actually this. You're like, oh, yeah, that's what it was. And you feel better about it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So to have her time in that cons in that.

Context was like, sure. Okay.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did she tell you right away.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

When she brings this up, that obviously it's a secret. She mentioned that you got to give collateral. Did she say, you cannot say anything to Nippy about this. So you had to keep it from your own husband.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Keep it from my own husband.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The CIA? I mean, pretty much. Christ.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So that we're. This is also part of, like, the debate trying to divide us, you know, create.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Division between us.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Because your relationship is unhealthy for the organization.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah. 100 unhealthy.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He's not as committed as you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, no. And also as we find out later, Keith wanted. Wanted me for his harem.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So he. Oh, so you found out later that he had specifically said he wanted you recruited into it?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, yeah. And it said. Was revealed in the trial that Keith was very happy when he found out that I had taken the vow of obedience and I had agreed. So there was the first collateral to hear about it, and then there was the second collateral to be full in.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay. And was that also in January 2017?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes, it was. By the end, it was like five days later because she told me at the beginning. Gave me five days to think. I was thinking about it. I felt, like, sick to my stomach.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You felt sick to your stomach?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah. I was super nauseous about it. I was. Didn't. And that. And to her, she's like, that means you're doing it right? It has to feel that way. That means that, like, you're really. It has to be that. I know, Just total twist, twist, twist, twist.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, it's. It's wild.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's so wild. So, like, because I felt so nauseous about it, that was the reason for me to know that, like, I was on the right track with it. It had to be that.

Important.

I had to feel it to know that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And this is someone you trust.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That makes it worse, right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And remember, there's no, like, internal red flag of, like, it's time to go. Like, that's been dismantled 12 years before. I have. I'm feeling uncomfortable. That means there's an issue for me to work on. I'm not.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's a suppressive feeling.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

So I take a vow of obedience. I say I'm going to do it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did you do that in person?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, well, yes, I did that with her in person.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The first one was in person when she asked.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And then you're still there. She's still with me. She's staying in my apartment and. Yeah. Pressuring me to.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

To join Nick Saban over here.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Okay, let's do it. What do I have to lose? What's the worst that can happen? And. But before I committed, she did tell me that I was gonna get. Get this tattoo.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She used the term tattoo in the trial.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She told me. Said that she said the word brand.

She may have. I did not know that people could get branded, but I know for sure. She said it's like a tattoo. It's a mark. She's used the word mark. She said. She apparently said that. She said brand. I don't have a recollection of that I know for sure she said a tattoo because we had a whole fight. Not fight, but it's like, I don't have any tattoos. I don't want a tattoo.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was the deal. Break like vow of obedience. I loved Lauren. I was already locked in and loyal to her and would have done anything she said, within reason. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I really, within reason, wouldn't jump off a bridge, you know, like, I'm not gonna rob a bank. But like she said, this is what you need to do for your growth. I would have done it. So now she's saying.

Get a tattoo. And I'm like, that was. That was the deal breaker for me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did she tell you where it would be?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, she told me it would be right here under my bikini line. Yep. And she said that's going to be right there. And she said that it would be. It was the size of a dime and it'd be really pretty.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did she show you hers?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, I don't think she had. Did she have hers yet? Hold on.

I don't know if she had hers yet. I'm just trying to think. Holy chat. She had hers.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you didn't ask her to show it?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I can't remember. I don't know if she had it, but I know she's said that she had. I don't remember, but this is how she described it to me. And she said in the trial that she did tell me it was a brand. I don't have a recollection of that. Like I said, I didn't know that humans could be branded. I thought it was for cattle, you know? Yeah, so what? But my sticking point was tattoo. And so she. We did. She did a whole Em with me about like, what am I making it mean? Like, what's a mark on my body? I don't want to mark it. Well, what if it's a commitment to your growth? What it's a symbol for your.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like, where did she do the em with you? Just like in your living room.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In the living room, yeah. And then later, the night of. Which came a few months later.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Is your son around while you're doing. I mean, he's. He's a three year old, but yeah. I mean, you guys are alone.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We were alone when this happened. Might have been at night or. Okay, daycare or something.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And Nippy's obviously not.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And Nippy, by the way, was traveling a lot. He was. He was running the men's program, Society of Protectors.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What is the society?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, That's a whole other podcast. It was the Janesse was the woman's thing and then Society Protectors came in later and that was like the men's version of. Of Janess.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Names are like too.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know. SOP Dos Janesse Nexium. The nice Society of Protectors. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Just. I'll jump out the window right now.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know. It's so embarrassing.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Especially like Nippy. He sounds like the kind of guy that's like this, like, I feel like he would have walked in there and said, do something different, you know?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. He. Similarly with me and Nexium doing our own thing. He did his own thing with the men's group.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No one was monitoring.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Well, so let's not get into the whole thing because like you said, it's a whole other podcast. But high level. What is the Society of Protectors doing?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't fucking know. Wish I could tell you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's just for me, they were just doing things.

[Sarah Edmondson]

They were doing. They were. I mean, similarly how we gathered as women and like would talk about stuff, they talked about men stuff and they would. They had what's called bullshit sessions.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Bullshit sessions.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. That I do know. So like if someone came and said like, hey, this, you know, this is going on in my life and people were like, let's like basically for forcing people to take accountability to further. Like it's all about personal responsibility, which is something we didn't cover at the beginning. Next one was all about like, you're not a victim in your life. Something happens you've authored. Yes, you're the master of your ship. You've authored it in some way. If something fucks up in your life, you either had expectations that were off or you, you know, miss certain things that you didn't want to see. You know, like there's always like I. And I could take this whole situation and do it for me right now. Like, how did I cause being branded? How is this on me? How is this my fault? I'm not a victim. But the thing is, is that I was a victim because I was lied to.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Here's. Here's the psychology of life that just pisses me off so much.

We have to go on everything. Zero or a thousand. Like not even zero or 100, zero or a thousand. Either. Everyone is a victim of everything that ever happened to them. And you're just supposed to wallow in being a victim your whole life or someone's not a victim of anything that's ever happened to them. And it's like, dude, these Situations are situation to situation, and they have incredible nuance. Right. Like when someone is inducted into a fucking sex cult and taken advantage of, like, they're a fucking victim. When someone doesn't get in a good enough grade in class so they pout and fucking say, I'm gonna quit the class, then they're just a pussy. There's a huge difference. You understand?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like these are two very different things. But, like, people either got to be all in one camp or all in another. I. I hope it's very clear today that, like, clearly, you know, people across this organization at different levels and different levels of seriousness, I might say, yours being, like, top of the line here. Unfortunately, we're victims of a.

Massive, psychotic, insane, you know, horrible person.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And. And it's also like, I know you've covered this a little bit on your podcast too. Like, same exact structure, different content, but it's like P. Diddy Epstein, same thing. Like, yeah, women didn't sign up for what they got.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

They did not sign up for what.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And nor did they consent. Because if you're afraid, that's not consent. It's not consent.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's not consent at all.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you do this vow of obedience.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Obedience. I commit to this thing. And it's kind of fun at first.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like, what was the vow of obedience?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, so I had to give more collateral. So she has a. Somewhere out there is a. Is a naked picture that she took of me. That was my.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Still just floating out there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I have no idea who has it. Yeah, someone's got it. I hope it doesn't pop up on the Internet. But, you know, other people gave way worse. Other people did. Like, other people did videos of all sorts of things, which I did not do. Yeah. So, yeah, if you think about that, we're all giving collateral for Keith's bank. Bank is what we're doing. Yeah, yeah, that's where that's going. But we don't know that at the time.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Cut to. That was January, March. I go out there for my initiation and to meet my sisters.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

If you listen to the show, you know, I work out six days a week. It's the first thing I do in the morning. And the most important part of my day now, I lift. I do cardio, I do calisthenics, I box. I'm constantly asking a lot of my body. And so over the past couple years, as I turned up the notch again, recovery sometimes would hurt. But now with Bubs natural collagen peptides, things are looking up again. The reason it gets Tougher to recover starting in your mid-20s is because your collagen production starts to naturally decline in your body. But that's where Bubs Naturals collagen peptides comes in. Since I started taking Bubs Naturals collagen, I'm looking and feeling like I was when I was working out senior year of college. The recovery the next day is so good that I can push things to the limit multiple days in a row. BUBS helps restore collagen levels closer to what you naturally had in your youth, so your joints feel stronger, your hair and nails feel healthier, and your skin looks smoother. Collagen, for those of you who aren't familiar with it, is the most abundant protein and is often referred to the glue that holds your body together. So with Bubs Naturals collagen helping to replenish some of my collagen levels, I have less joint pain, my skin feels healthier, and I'm bouncing back faster than ever. And what's really cool is Bubs donates 10% of all its profits to charity in honor of Glenn Bub Doherty, who laid down his life in Benghazi, Libya, as a Navy SEAL and who, as you might imagine, is the genesis of the name of the company. So live better for longer. For a limited time only, our listeners are going to get 20% off at Bubs Naturals by using code Julian at checkout. The link is in my description below. Just head to Bubsnaturals.com and use code Julian and you're all set. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about this. Please support our show and tell them I sent you.

And Doug. Here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Liberty Savings.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates, excludes Massachusetts. Quick question.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

When did I know? I remember they showed in the vowel, like text you would have to send. There was like the master slave dynamic. Did that begin right away in January?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So it's right away.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Explain that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So part of being the vow of obedience, also that she's the master, I'm the slave. And I'm like.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She used those words?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, master slave. And I'm like, master slave. Like, even in Nexium, there's a whole module where, like, slavery is bad. And I'm like, wait, so now I'm. This. It's a metaphor, Sarah. Like, coach. Coachee.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's a metaphor.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Guru disciple. Just guru Disabled. And also, like, I don't live in Albany. I can't be her slave. Right? Like, it's a metaphor. It's like, you know, have you ever. We went.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's like the old Joe Bonanno interview. It's a metaphorical. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Do you. You weren't a frat boy ever, right? It isn't. Were you?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do I look like a frat?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, you don't look. Frat boy.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay, I wasn't a frat. I was at a school where pretty much every person. There. There was a small school. Everyone was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Did you ever get hazed?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

We drank mad dogs.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I was on. I was in the. I was in, like, the. The sports team frat. So it was a drinking club.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Yeah. So. But you've heard about hazing.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Of course.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So also a little bit culty, by the way. I've done episodes on it. But the point is, when someone's being hazed, they know that the person above them is sort of playing a game.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, like, okay, I'm gonna go get your remote from across campus and bring it to you. Okay, fine. That's what I gotta do. That's what it felt like to me. This is a game. It's an exercise. It's a. It's. I'm not really her slave. We're doing this thing together.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Sorority.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's a sorority.

So, yeah, that's what it was like. It was. It was weird. It was also kind of exciting. Nobody knew about it. We were, like, texting, and I had to be like, good morning, master. And, you know, that's the part I.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Would have been like. So you had to talk like that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you had to check in with her.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I had to check in with her. And I also had to be always available. This is also, like. There were so many things that happened in those last six months. I couldn't even tell you the timeline because, a. I was already sleep deprived. Having a toddler that would wake me up at night. Then I had to keep my phone on at night for, like, drills that could. I had to respond to her in a certain way.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She might text you in the middle of the night, and you had to respond.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I had to respond. So, like, some total control. So the control just amped up. And also, somewhere during this time, I'm going to. Oh, shit. Like, what? Did I agree to. And trying to figure out also how I was gonna get out of it. Like, as soon as I was in. I'm trying to figure out how to get out. But, like, kind of going along and thinking about, like, maybe I find. If I find a way to tell Nancy about this. Oh. Because as soon as I was in, then it was revealed to me that we had to give new collateral every month. Every month, Every month. Every. Like, provide something else to keep our words strong. And people were giving. Like, there's one woman in my. In my little sisterhood who was a lawyer and wrote a letter that would have gotten her to Spartan.

Like, that. Lauren.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She was a lawyer.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And I don't know if this happened before, after the branding, I don't remember, but there was a point where Lauren asked for the deed to my home.

And I was like, okay. And never, ever actually, like, took steps to do it, but was like, yeah, I'm talking to my lawyer. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. Like, I don't have the deed to my home just as collateral just for her to hold. So, like, I'm in it, but also, like, kind of going along with it, trying to figure out how to extricate myself from it. And, like, you know, again, I'm in Vancouver, so I'm not. Like, no one's really watching me. I can kind of get away with not being fully in it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You're, in some ways, because of your physical lack of proximity, you're finding loopholes to dissociate yourself from the very clear.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Red flags flying at all times.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And keep in mind that there are women who were in my boat who lived in Albany, who lived in the same complex as Keith and Nancy and Lauren. Like, their level of fight or flight and hyper vigilance from this time period must have been through the roof, because they were like, can you. Like, that's why you don't hear from them.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know what I mean? Like, I'm probably the one. The only ones who can talk about it because I don't have a. I don't have the same shame wrapped up in it. Like, it's embarrassing, but it's not the same.

Shame. You know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

No, it's. It's. It's. It's like I'm trying to possibly understand it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's not possible.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's so crazy.

But, like, you're. You're texting in the middle of the night.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nippy.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Ever see you text?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, My God. Nippy was. So this is when you think you're.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Texting Jake from State Farm, like, what's the deal, Nip?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I. But Lauren helped me explain to him because I'm like, I was one of the few married women. Right. So I had to get him on board. And he was. She's like, tell him that you're doing something with your women friends from Janess. And it's like SOP had their own version of the texting and the drills and stuff. So that was called readiness drills. That's where that came from. SOP was doing it too. You had to be available and respond. I was like, are you ready to do what? I don't fucking know. So I was like, I'm doing that with my women friends. We're like committing to our. So he knew that I was doing something with Lauren and my women friends from Janess. But he didn't really know why. What? But he was irritated because it was like we had phones off at night. Now we don't have phones off at night. He's like, this isn't. This isn't cool, bro.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He didn't say bra then. That was more recent.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He's cultured now. Yeah, Left there and got cultured.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I live with three boys. It's a bruh.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Good for him.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you're from January to March and they show some of these texts like in the vow. I remember that it was like you'd literally, as you said, refer to her as master and she'd call you slave and check in and you're. That does also psychologically, even if you are not physically proximate and you're explaining away some of these things when you do. When you. It's repetition of anything. When you do that enough that psychologically wires you to unknowingly take on some of those characteristics. In that dynamic, for sure. It's no different for. For any person. So March is when you actually go out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There's March 11th. And she signed me up at the end of January. So it's actually like less than six weeks later.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And so she says, fly out here to Albany.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We had a. We had a training that the whole organization was doing. It was a jeunesse. There was. There was jeunesse for women and there was SOP for men. And then there was a jeunesse track that was like for relationships the men and women were doing together. So Nippy and I were going to do this eight day training together. By the way. It was $15,000, that training. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

They always get you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know. It's still getting you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Money always get you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And I was instructed to come out day early so I could meet my sisters and get my tattoo and do my initiation. And, yeah, that happened, and then I left.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we gotta actually go and do it. Nippy doesn't know anything about what this is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nippy actually dropped me off at Lauren's house for. I told him it was a potluck, which we did have a potluck first. We had a potluck.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You didn't mention anything about a tattoo.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Or anything like that. No. We were having dinner with my girlfriends and I would take an Uber back when I was done. Oh, I don't have to tell this whole story.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You don't have to.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Seriously, I'm gonna tell you the abridged version or. What do you want to know?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I mean, I want to know what happened, but you don't have. I'm serious. You don't have to. It's whatever you're comfortable with.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's been a while. Hold on a second. I have to pee again. I'm so sorry. And then we're gonna be right back.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And then we're gonna do this. Okay, we're back. So like I said, wherever you're comfortable home with this. Go wherever you're not. No problem at all. But the branding as.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you. And so what I've realized. I'm eight years out. What I've realized is even though I have a podcast, I've done all these interviews talking about, like, the details of the. Of the night still trigger, like, a kind of PTSD response. So to really go there and walk through all the steps and to relive it is traumatic. And at the same time, I want people to know so they understand the whole story. I just. If I really go there, then I'm gonna just break down, and I don't wanna do that. So I have to, like, kind of. It's almost like I have to tell the story from a more surface sort of like Eagle View. Do you know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

When I really settle into what happened, it just fucks with my head. So I'm gonna. That's my pre.

She'd set up a whole.

Ritual. She wanted to. Lauren wanted to make this a special night, and she had.

Oh, my God. I haven't walked through the. All of these things in a long time. So I'm just trying to figure out what's the most important thing to share.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You were. Just to be clear, before we went to the break. You were dropped off. Nippy did not know what you're doing, obviously. Obviously. Y drops you off at Lauren's house.

And you. It's a potluck to start.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We. Yeah.

Was it a potluck to start? No, it was not a potluck to start. The way I. So I didn't know who the other women were in my little. She had a pod of sisters. My sorority. We hadn't met yet. This was the night we were going to meet. And then we were going to be like sisters in the sorority. So I knew that there were other women that she'd invited as well, but I hadn't met them yet.

That introduction was so awkward. So she. I was the first to arrive. She brought me into her guest room, which I'd been in before, and stayed. I felt comfortable in her house. And she told me to get undressed and wait.

And then she.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right when you get there, get undressed.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I heard other people come in, other women come in. And she ended up blindfolding me and leading me downstairs into her, like, little living room area until all the women were down there. And we took off our blindfolds and we met each other buck naked.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I know that is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Bad start.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know it's a bad start. And these are women that I know. These are women that I've done trainings with for years, but, like, we've never seen each other naked. Some of. One of the women was breastfeeding. She had a new baby. And, like, you know, when you. When you've had a baby, your body is not your own is. Things are not as they should be for a while. So she was uncomfortable. I mean, we're all. We were all just like, oh, this is so weird, and kind of laughing and. And she says things like, girls, you have to get over your body issues. Like, who cares?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So she comes downstairs and is telling you that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She introduces us. We talk about a little bit what DOS means. I don't remember any of. I couldn't tell you because I'm just like. People think we're a cult, you know, like, now what are we doing? We get dressed. We have the potluck. Sorry, I feel like I. I have, like, trail mix on my teeth.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

No, you're good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay. Okay. Then we have potluck. A low calorie potluck, by the way, because everyone's, like, counting calories, so they're all trying to be thin. Nope, can't be. And I never. I was never a calorie counter. I've just always Kind of been naturally thin, and so I wasn't doing that, but everybody was like, this is a 300 calorie soup. And this is like. It was so annoying. The weight thing as a whole. I mean, that's a whole other podcast.

We put her on our clothes. Then we get blindfolded again, and we get in the car, we, like, cram into a car, and she drives us somewhere blindfolded. Blindfolded. She's not blindfolded. She's driving.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Well, that's good. That's reassuring.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And we get. And then she, like, leads us out of the car. It's dark by now. Into what? I. Soon as I get in the. In the home, I can smell. And I'm peeking under the bottom of my blindfold, and I know exactly where I am. I'm an Alison Max Condo. Yeah. We get led into a room. It's a tiny, like, half the size of this room with a massage table in the middle. And we're told to get undressed again. And now we're gonna get our. What I thought was my tattoo is now the brand. Now she shows me, and it's half.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The size of this room.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's not a big space at all.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, it's. It's enough room for, like, a massage table and for, like, people to sort of stand around or sit around the massage table.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How many you was it again? Four or five?

[Sarah Edmondson]

So me, Lauren, then the doctor.

Six.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The doctor.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The person who did the branding was a doctor. Osteopath, Not a doctor, but I guess. I don't know what the.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Who's in Nexium?

[Sarah Edmondson]

She's a Nexium.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Who's still loyal, by the way. You can look her up. She's been on news saying that it was all consensual, and we all agreed and.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And that should take your medical license.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She had. It's gone. And by the way, I was the only one who testified to that. All the other women were, like, had run for the hills. And I was like, this cannot.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And she blames me for that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay, so they show you the brand now when you walk in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And what did. Who showed you?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Lauren. She showed us. Yeah, and it looked quite a lot like that. Like, a little bit more fresh, a little bit more raised, like she had just gotten. Yeah, it was pretty. It was pretty raw. It was keloid. You know what a keloid scar is, right? Like, it's sort of thick and raised. They like. Wait, that's not familiar with the keloid is like when a scar is like it's not healed yet.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like that. A little bit.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. But yeah, so that would be a bit. A bit more raised than that. But that's a little bit keloid. Yeah. And you could. I've. I can tell you the cream to put on that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I'm good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You're good, Charles.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Good with the ladies.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, really? It's your war wound.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, I've had it for like seven years.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Really?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

They're like, oh, you're so tough.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Something like that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay, I'll let them.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, you keep that then. Whatever works for you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Hey, I'm not working with much here. You gotta help me out, bruh.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Bruh.

But she.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What was your reaction when you see.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That.

Got dime size. I don't want that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, she had told you. Dime size?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, it's like two inches by two inches. It's huge.

A lot of things happened in this short period of time. Like, I know I pulled her aside at one point. I'm like, Lauren, I do not want this on my body. And she's like, you're the only green sash in this room and you made a commitment.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do you feel like when she says something like that to you, cuz you look at it seriously, like friend to friend. You're like, you know, it's awkward. You're. You're taking off a blindfold, make it in a room. So it's already weird, but now it's like, all right, let's cut the shit. Yeah, I don't want this. And then she looks at you, I'm assuming with some sort of like thousand yard stared, mixed with authority and says, you're a green sash. You have to do this. Did it feel like she was a robot?

[Sarah Edmondson]

A little bit, yeah. Yeah. And also I. Lauren was the master at normalizing things. Like even when she taught the five day, I loved when she taught the five day because she'd be like, yeah, Sasha's are weird, I get it. But like, you know, it's just a martial arts system and like, yeah, vanguard. I know. Like, I loved having her train because it made my friends more into the weird things. Because she just was like, whatever. Like, I get it. You know, it's. We don't want to call it vanguard, but it's just like the leader of a philosophical movement, you know, we call the judge your honor. It's the same thing.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You wrapped the weird and nonchalant.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And she was really good at that. And so there Are a lot. There were a lot of things stacked against me in the moment. One is that I was the highest ranking person in that room. So even though this was supposed to be unrelated to nxtm, of all the women there I was, other than Lauren, I was the highest ranked. Rank my promotions on the line. Like me going up the rank. My collateral's on the line. Remember, I've taken a vow of obedience. So that's the proverbial, like, gun to my head. That's my. It's being blackmailed. I've taken a vow of a b. Newman's. That means she's telling me I get branded. I need to get branded. We also have all these years of indoctrination. Janesse. Part of the curriculum was like, women don't know how to keep a commitment. Even when we're married, we're like, we can always get a divorce. So there's all these very terrible messaging about women and our ability to stay loyal.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like the worst kind of manipulation.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like they're. They're appealing that peeling is the wrong word. But they're. They're guilting you for, you know, pseudobiology.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And now I'm actually gaslighting myself. I'm going, oh, look at me. I'm doing what we learned about. I'm looking. I'm literally looking for the back door. I got. I said I would commit. I said, if I can do it, I gotta do it. It. I said, I do it, I'm going to do it. So I have her doing it to me. I have me doing it to me. I have the collateral on the line. I have my role in the organization. And.

I.

Tried to figure out how to. I decided not to go first. I saw somebody else go first. It was horrific.

Now I am going to get emotional seeing. Okay, yeah.

First we were wearing masks because of the smell of the flesh. So there's a cauterizing iron that was dragged across the flesh to create the line. It wasn't. It wasn't a stamp of a brand. Like would actually. Would have been more humane. Like a hot iron in fire on flesh. Like they do omegas in the frats. You know about that? Yes.

I've seen it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Malcolm Jenkins had a huge.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. That would have been more humane. It would. Took the first woman. It took almost an hour, maybe 45 minutes of taking a cauterizing iron dragging across the flesh in this symbol that you see here.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

An hour to do that. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And by the time it got to me, I was like, I need to stay as still as fucking possible. Cause the first woman I saw was, like, flipping around on the table like an electrocuted fish. Like, it was horrific. And I was like, if I'm gonna get through this, I'm gonna stay as still as possible. Like, I got this sort of, like, I'm gonna get it done, and I'm gonna get it done as quickly as possible. And, like, I've given birth before. This most painful experience in my life. I can do this. I can. I can do it. And I. That's what I did. I, like, lay on the table and disassociated and thought about the love for my baby and went somewhere else and, like, did everything I could to make it bearable. Like, I think I even cracked jokes, you know, to ease the weird tension in the room. And meanwhile, Lauren's, like, looking lovingly at me. And, like, so.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Looking lovingly at me.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, like, you're doing so great.

You know, And. And before we even asked, before it even started, we had to say, master, would you brand me? It would be an honor. Which cut to later in the trial, Allison Mack had audio footage of her talking to Keith. And Keith saying, ask the women. Tell them to put their hands over their heads so it looks sort of sacrificial trial. And tell them to ask to be branded so it looks consensual. That was a key piece of evidence in the trial.

So, yeah, it's. That happened.

Mine, I think, took, I don't even know, like, around 30 minutes, a little less because I stayed still and just said, like, just get it over with. Maybe 20, 20 to 30 minutes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And you don't.

You disassociate.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I disassociated.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you did. You weren't really.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, I felt it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You felt.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, I felt it. But it was. I mean, you've probably had never had laser hair removal around your bikini line.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I've had it up here, but in very light. Ain't nothing. Yeah, that's a joke.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's. It's the most sensitive area to, like, right here on your pubic line. And.

Yeah, and was having my. My flesh cut open with a hot iron with no anesthetic.

And then when it was done, I felt, like, the strongest. The. The endorphins that hit me and the. And the rush of, like, feeling so strong that I got through it and proud of myself that I got through it. And then to be surrounded by these women friends who were, like, ruining me on, like, you did so great. And, like, Trauma bond, which you talked about with Nadine yes, she mentioned this. Yes, very real. She mentioned the power dynamic. I think Obviously that does 100 happen trauma bond with the power differential and abusers. But trauma bond can also happen with people that you're bonded with. There's no. They're like. Even within my sisters we were trauma bonded. So obviously Lauren and I with the power differential, but with my sisters we had like gone through this horrific thing together.

And. And yeah, I don't know what else you want me to tell you, but it was. It was like the worst.

I don't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You were thinking about to get through it. You're disassociating and you're also thinking about like your baby.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. We'd learned this thing in exam called state control, which is like accessing different emotional states to like get through. Like.

Like I could bring up like an excited state if I was feeling low energy. Like I could get like excited about something. So I went into a love state. I went into a disassociated love. Like I love my son so much. Like I'm the most.

Loving. Like I just, I just, I brought that up so I would. I was like some. I was like disassociated into another realm for myself. And then I came back to it and then Lauren was there. So now I'm bonded with her and I don't even remember the rest of the night. I like, I don't remember. I don't remember how I got home.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You had a. You had a. You said though when you were done, it's like this almost. The endorphins are kicking. Like it's a weird rush was there. So you don't even remember going home or anything like that. So is it fair to say you kind of stayed disassociated in a way?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I do remember walking into. I don't remember if I got a ride home or if I took an Uber or what. But I remember when I was walked in, I remember Nippy was working at his desk and I. He was still up and I remember like I wanted to tell him so badly.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But you couldn't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I couldn't. No, it was a secret.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I mean he's your husband though.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like he's.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

See that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know. And we had a plan that when it didn't get to this but like cuz I. Me and another woman that were in there were the only married women in DOS who had been branded. And we were like, what are we going to tell our husbands? And it was like we had a plan about like, you know, that we did this thing as a. Like, we. We had some story that Lauren had asked us to say, but we didn'. Never got to that because everything exploded before we could do that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right Before. Before I get there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do you remember at any point before you got home, obviously you said you don't really even remember how you got home and all that, but at any point in the rest of that night, after the rush dies down, right afterwards, do you remember feeling any anger or resentment or.

Even slight understanding of, like, oh, this is now different. This is not the organization that I was telling myself I was a part of.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't think. I think I was still feeling the rush of endorphins and whatever came from, like, my body reacting to, like, protecting myself. I felt. I felt like I had overcome a great physical feat. Like, I'd run a marathon. And I was proud of myself and that.

Like, I didn't. I knew it was kind. I knew it was up, but I was like.

I don't even. I. It's hard for me to go back to that. And. And. And. Sure. It was very shortly thereafter that I was back in Vancouver. And people have told me, like, my mom told me and a couple friends who knew me well were like, you were. There was something so off for a while, and they didn't know what it was. And many things happened in that very short period of time after the branding, including Mark Vicente, who brought me in, was like, leaving nxivm. And this is all in the vow as well. Like, if people were. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Now, what was the. What was the context there? Did he contact you right when he was doing that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, his wife had already left. Bonnie had already left. And I was sent as the green sash to get her, like, to sign her paperwork, which is basically a gag order. Like, I'm leaving on good terms, and I'm not gonna say anything negative about Nexium. And she wouldn't even get back to me about that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Is that before the branding?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Before the branding. And that's what. There's phone calls in the vow. We're back and forth with Mark, and I'm like, I just gotta get the paperwork. And I'm like, why is that? Why am I being sent to do this? And I was. I was. I was irritated and at the same time, super happy for Bonnie that she was, like, going off to LA and pursuing acting. I was like, good for you. Like, that's what you came here to do, do. And that's what that was also in the back of my mind, so many people came to Nexium to work on their goals and then they. Everything got usurped for the mission.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I was like, you go, girl. Then Mark was leaving and I was. This is also around the same time as our lease was up in Vancouver and like I was looking at other leases and Mark was going to leave the company, but I'm not doing this on my own. And he wouldn't even tell me why he was leaving until I signed an NDA because he knew that Nexium was going to come after them, which of course they did. And under his NDA is what he told me what he knew because he was in Albany and he's like, there's some women's group here that's like a secret group. He knew more about it than I did.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, he had found out about it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He'd found out about it because some women who'd been approached, I guess, had said no and were coming to him for help. And there was somebody that had, had, had done it and had gotten the assignment of having to go seduce Keith and they had found out that the sex was involved. So Mark was telling me about. About the sex. So this is when I'm like, wait, he's not celibate. And B, I knew about the branding. So this is the first time that we were sharing information.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you still hadn't. Even after the branding, you were still. There's a party that's still like, oh, but Keith is celibate. This has nothing to do with him.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I didn't know. I had no idea that. I mean, yeah, it's completely naive now to think that he wouldn't have anything to do with it because since he was in charge of everything. But Lauren lied right to my face. No, Keith, this is something the women are doing with the tools. Keith created the tools. We're using the tools. The women are just doing it for us. No, the master of all the ma. The master of Lauren and the other top line dos slaves was Keith, which comes out later.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did they. Quick side question, because I didn't ask this. What did they tell you this shape was at the time?

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was like some bullshit story about Greek or Latin symbol for the element.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Elements like mountains, valleys.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But if you turn it to the side, it says kr, which I didn't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That that's what woke me up. So it wasn't the branding that woke me up. It's looking in the mirror and seeing. Because it's not. I have to look in the mirror. And that's when I see. It's the reverse. The reflection. It's not.

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And that happened a few weeks later, and that's like, I can't. And this is where it's a bit fuzzy of what happened first. Like, I think Mark and I spoke, and I was like, holy. And then I had to remember, like, Lauren had recruited me. I had recruited my first slave as well, into my little organization, which is, by the way, I didn't want to do, but I taken a vow of obedience, and I.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She told you to do that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And I. When Mark and I spoke, I showed her. I'm like, look, something's. I basically said, we're not doing this anymore. And I showed her the brand, and I'd been. I broke my. My vow of secrecy, showed her the brand, and she's the one that pointed out the kr.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Wait, The.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The slave? Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right. So you drew the line. Like, I don't want what happened to you to happen to me.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. You're not. Like, she hadn't been branded yet. So, like, we're. We're not doing this. Like, she was one of my good friends.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, so you felt safe to confide in her.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And I knew that she. I knew that she would be loyal to me and not, like, tell Keith and Lauren or whatever that I was. I didn't know that just because she. She wouldn't have that connection with them. She, like, she trusted me, and she wouldn't throw me under the bus.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Had your husband seen it at this?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not yet, no.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

This was just staying clothed around.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Or, like, I'd wrap a towel around me, and also, he'd been in New York. We was going back and forth for New York. We weren't in the same city that much. And when we were. Either had my. Like, you couldn't see it in Amanda everywhere, or if I came out of the shower, I'd wrap a towel and get dressed in another room. Like, that wasn't a hard thing to keep from him for that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But you can't keep it from.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not forever. No. I would mean I was planning on telling him forever. I wanted it to heal. I had a bandage on. Wasn't healed yet.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And he couldn't see the bandit. I mean, this is a big scar.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. With a band with the bandage under it. It stays under the underwear.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I'm looking at your finger.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, it was this big. It was like. It was like this 2 inches by 2 inches. Huge.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Huge.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So Mark and I decided. I asked Mark if he would tell Nippy because somehow I felt like.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Because you confided in Mark that you were a part of this organization.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I said, can you please tell Nippy? And then somehow, like, I wasn't breaking my vow of secrecy, which makes no sense. It was like I was safe under his NDA with him.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But you still felt like you had to keep. You were so. Wow.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Nippy was in New York when he found out. Nippy and I was supposed to fly out to New York for the next. Next. This was. Would have been beginning of June.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Mark knew details that you didn't. He knew that there was sex involved. He knew it had to do with seducing Keith, and he knew that this organization existed. But then you knew details that could fill in blanks for him because you had been put into it. So you guys communicated about that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. For the first time, we weren't siloed. And we were able to kind of actually understand what it was, which was a. Was an MLM based on blackmail.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yes. Was his. So his wife had left. He was thinking of leaving.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He was. He. At this point, he had left. He had resigned.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He had resigned.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And I wanted to know why.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And we.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So this is like spring 2017.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And so this is now May, when I was supposed to go back to New York for a coach summit, the beginning of June. Nippy was already there.

Mark told Nippy I flew. We decided to do business as usual. I flew to. To. To New York, I'll never forget, because it was Nippy's birthday. It was May 29th. We celebrated his birthday the next day. He. We drove up to Albany. He dropped me off at the FBI. I went and told the FBI everything that I knew, that Market set up that appointment. Nippy went to pick up his SOP paycheck because they hadn't paid him in months and months, which was a big win because he, like, got a. Whatever. He got like 20 grand or something that he. They had been owed. And we were trying to get that before we, like, peaced out, got his check. I went to the FBI and then I was supposed to go to the summit this next Coach summit, where. And my. My mom knew by now. I told her.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And she was your mom out at this point?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah. She only took a little bit of curriculum. And then she, like.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She peach.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. She came to, like, a couple V weeks just to, like, help me with the baby and also just to keep an eye on things and make sure I was okay. She was just trying to, like, stay in my life.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How did I. I Want to backtrack for one second? Mark tells Nippy this whole process you're talking about with FBI happens.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He dro. He dropped you off at FBI himself.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What was the conversation like for the first time when you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

When told the FBI?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

When you. No, when you talked to Nippy in person, did you show him the brand and what was that like?

[Sarah Edmondson]

He was very angry, but not at me, which was. Yeah, he. Luckily he, like, had enough context for how these. How the organization operated and how I gotten like. I don't know what Mark told him, but he was like. Like he. I mean, he wanted. He wanted. He wanted. Yeah. And he actually had to.

See him and be in a car ride with him for a little while with Keith. Yeah. And that's when Keith told him about.

Having a baby with Mariana. Yeah, I know. There's so much going.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. When you have. When you have that conversation with him, did Nippy feel guilty?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's. If you ever want to chat with him, I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you, but he felt like he. I mean, he. It's like he didn't. He didn't. He didn't feel guilty. Like he wasn't able to protect me. Ironically, society, protectors, right? Like that whole male protector role he wasn't able to do. But he also knew that, like, we'd been divided and there was nothing he could have done. So he was. He was very angry. And to this day I'm like, you need to go to, like, boxing or, like, get this out somewhere. Because he never. I mean, we got justice. Keith's in jail. But, like, he didn't get to, you know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I can't even fathom that. How long was that conversation with him when you had it?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know that, but that period of time of like, telling Mark and like getting out in the FBI was like. Like a two, three week period. And I don't have a lot of memories from that time. I wasn't sleeping much and I wasn't eating much.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I can imagine.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I was like my whole life was flipped upside down.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So he. Nippy, let's just review this so people can follow along. Nippy says, I'm going to take you to the FBI in Albany. You need to tell them everything. And you completely agreed. You're like, yeah. Fuck. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. No, we were. We were. We were in blow up mode. We were. I was the house down. Yeah. Yeah. I was so mad and the other thing I didn't say is that, like, I knew what had happened to me, and I knew that.

There were all these women that I'd brought in to Vancouver, and I realized very quickly that a lot of them were in dos and like, getting lined up to get branded. And I was livid because I had been lied to, and I knew that they'd been lied to. And then I found out because this all unraveled very quickly as we tried to get people to, like, not go to. There was another round of branding that was supposed to happen. You have, like, the next level of dos slaves, including my best friend, whoever, who's. She's. Who hadn't been brain branded yet, not under me. She was Paige in my book. And she was like, you know, I was like, you're not getting on the. Do not get on the plane. And I showed her my brand over FaceTime when I was in New York.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How did she react to that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

She was terrified. And. And like, you know, we'd come up with some excuse that she was sick and like. Like, you know, I. I was doing everything I could to protect. Protect her.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Now, is that before FBI conversation?

[Sarah Edmondson]

After. So after the FBI.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. What was the FBI conversation like?

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was wrong.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And say, I have a fucking case to give you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, sit down. And the guy was like, but you asked to get branded. And I'm like, yeah, but I didn't ask for his initials on my body. Like, who would do that? I'm a married woman. Why would I want this man's initials on my body? And, like, I pictured that he'd be like, okay, we're going to go raid, you know, the ne. And then.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Well, I mean, they got to get the info first.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, they got to get. Yeah, but this is my. I was hoping that it would move a little faster.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She's like, ready to go burn the whole. Get the torches. Let's go.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's what I.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So they take you in and how. I. Do you remember how long you were being in?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, maybe an hour. Not very long.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's it, an hour?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

We've been in here for five.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, maybe. Who the was your energy? Somebody who did not know the Oreo. Right.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The sucked.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Keep in mind my interview with the FBI after the New York Times article came out. So this is months later. That was. I spent two and a half days with them.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. Because now they got to do the work. But an hour the first time?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Maybe. Maybe more. I have no idea.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did you whip the brand Out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I showed them everything. Yeah, they were like. They were like. This is. This is definitely unconventional. Oh, unconventional, yeah. They're like, the poor guy. This was not. We did. I don't even know who I talked to. Like, the guy that I spoke to is not the person I should have been speaking to.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds like the fucking cleanup crew or something. We talking to the janitor an hour? I don't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Maybe more. I don't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You know, many times today, I've had to be like, well, there's six questions I want to ask right there. We're only going to get the one. Fuck it. And like I said, we're like five hours in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, that's crazy.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right, so you at least gave him the basics. You gave him the spark.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I gave him the basics. And keep in mind, you said something about, like, we were whistleblowers, which is absolutely true. In 2009, there was this whole. Another tangent, but there was. There's another group of whistleblowers who tried to expose Keith.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And who were they?

[Sarah Edmondson]

They called them the Nexium 9. And they were a group of NXIVM women who had, like, thought that Keith wasn't doing things above board. And they tried to. They tried to handle it internally and meet with him. And that's all on tape. And you can, like, Google that if you want to see it. And they ended up.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Keith let that be recorded.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Because he recorded everything. And that's the. Then they ended up leaving. And then the organization, Claire and Keith, sued. Sued them, especially the main sort of people who were leading that charge. So that's how we learned you don't confront the leadership and say, hey, things are. This is like, hey, you said I was gonna get. You know. No, you just. You. You get out and you. And so we First. We were, like. We had been told we'd been getting some guidance from other people who'd left before. It's like, you have to leave and you have to create a scene so that it's.

Like a divergence. Like, I would. I would have been allowed to leave for a family emergency, for example. Right. So I. I said that I was on my way, which is true. I was in Albany and I packed up. We had a little home that we stayed at when we were in Albany. So I packed up everything. Meanwhile, I'm like, hey, see you tomorrow at the Coach Summit.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Were you scared?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, my God, yeah. I was terrified. And then Nippy decided to stay in Albany to do business as usual. Well, I Took Troy, our three year old. I took a nine hour train from Albany to Toronto because my grandfather, crazy iron, ironically was, had a cancer diagnosis and he was going in for a surgery. So I was like, I used that actually thing that was happening in reality as my out. So I was like, I'm gonna go say goodbye, potentially goodbye to my grandfather and I'll be back for the summit. I was planning also to do business as usual. My mom was like, do not go there. The hooks that they have in you are so strong. She was worried that I'd get like hooked back in. I didn't think I would, but who knows? Because I didn't do it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Mom was smart.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mom was smart. So I, I just got my belongings and left. And then all that whole nine hour train ride. Troy had his iPad on. He slept for some, but like his iPad. And I was like facetiming and showing the scar and like getting people to not get on a plane and, and trying to shut it down without them, but only telling people that I knew wouldn't go report on me because I don't want to get sued or my collateral be released.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So you're immediately going into help mode and save mode, which is great. And a lot is happening all at once. All right, there's two directions here. First direction. So you guys were scared, which I then imply to mean that it had already crossed your mind at this point that this guy Keith Ranieri and potentially people around him could be killers. They could come kill you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I was more afraid of being sued or. Yeah, I was. I wouldn't, I didn't think, I wasn't, I wasn't thinking they'd be killed. I was thinking that.

I don't remember what I was thinking. I was like, I just have to get, I have to get out of here. I had to get out of here and stop the branding. I have to stop the brand. I wasn't even thinking.

I don't know, a lot of stuff going on at the same time. I can't quite put myself.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So it's, it's like a tornado kind of. You're not, you don't, you don't, you're scared. You don't even necessarily know everything you're scared of. But the one thing that you can remember visualizing was a lawsuit. Which is interesting because I don't know if I've ever heard about someone like packing up their house and trying to get the out of here for a lawsuit.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, no, no, no, that wasn't why I was leaving. I needed to get my kid. I just needed to be away from it all. And I. And I. And I knew. I mean, I had a ba. I had not a toddler. And I knew I was never gonna come back. And I knew that if I got close, like, I knew that Lauren, my mom was saying, like, Lauren could, you know, manipulate you into it. Interesting. So I was. I mean, I was terrified of being caught. I mean, I guess what I was terrified of was not so much being killed, like my collateral being released. You know, I was. I was nervous about people.

I don't know.

I mean, I'm gonna go back to Vancouver. I put extra locks on my doors like that. It's not necessarily rational. I was just fucking terrible. Terrified.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's a nine hour train ride, by the way, from Albany to Toronto.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Maybe my map is fucked up in my head. I don't know. It was that far?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, it's far.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I think it stops a bit too, maybe.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And so Nippy stayed in Albany. And this is when the car ride happens with. With Keith.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. And it's also where he confronts Lauren and Jim and that that phone call is in the vow.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right, which happened first? The car ride?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think so.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay, so how did happen that. That he was just told he had.

[Sarah Edmondson]

To get in the car because Keith didn't drive Keith. He had to drive Keith somewhere from, like one thing to another. I don't know if I don't think it was very hard.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And he didn't put his. He found a way to do it with a straight face. Better man than me.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I know, I know. I don't think he even knew everything we know now. Like, yeah, he knew enough. Yeah, he knew enough. He knew. He knew that he. If he had done what he wanted to do, he'd be in jail. Jail. And he had to protect his wife and his kid. And he couldn't do that from jail. That's what kept him in check. Oh, smart man. And. And he also. Yeah, he, like, he. We always joked about how like the coach summit that he attended where he confronted and recorded what he wanted to do is go in and like flip the buffet, like the egg table. Right. But like, and, and go postal. But he knew that there were people around Keith that would protect Keith and he'd have to hurt one of his friends, you know, or like, you know, his poor friends would have to clean up the eggs. And like, he just. He wanted to be the most effective. And so we created a scene and we'd been told that the best way to.

Exit something like this was to use our own issues against us. So, like, I had my issues. Yeah, my. But also like, he. He just got pissed. And like, what man wouldn't be pissed to have his. His wife's initials? I mean, is another man's initials on his wife?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I mean, it's. That's the least of it. I mean, it's like, I can make a laundry list of things right now that are postal worthy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So he decided. He decided that was the best way for him, is to make a scene. Yes. Smart move. Yeah. And that. And he recorded it. And that's in the vow. And it's such a great. Because he's just like, for the first time, doesn't let Lauren gaslight him. I mean, Lauren's like, what if it's something that you don't understand? He's like, you ran in my wife. And it's just like, oh, it's the closest he could get to punching somebody. You know, he. No one stood up to leadership like that. Like, that was. It's like Scientology. You don't. You just don't do that. And he did it. And so, like, that's the next best thing. And that's there.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I'm. I'm just thinking, because there's just like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

A lot I know here and I have to, like, tell you what happened after. And he.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So.

That'S. So.

That's so sinister that. That he had. I. I just can't imagine. But that's like.

On the one hand, every man wants his eye for an eye, and you would, like, want to see him do that. But on the other hand, for the long term, it was absolutely a incredible decision for him to just get it on camera and verbally confront Lauren in this case, not do anything to Keith and allow the legal process to play out. So I don't even know how I want to ask this. It's a. I've never had to ask something like this, but, like, you know, man and woman, husband, protector. Right. Something bad happened to you, you don't blame him for that, but was there a part of you that wanted him to kill Keith? Like, did you hold any of that against him at the time? No.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, because. No, absolutely not. Like, that would have been.

Dumb. I wanted him not in jail. Like, even if he'd gone to defend me and hurt Keith, doesn't matter. Like, we. How. How it played out was exactly how it needed to play out. And the way that we did it, getting the media, I mean, first we went to the medical board to File the complaint against the doctor who did the branding.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

The osteopath.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Osteopath, yeah. And then. And meanwhile, I mean, it all happened sort of around the same time. And went to the, you know, Barry Meyer, the New York Times. That article. We went there in June, didn't come out till October after Harvey Weinstein. So me too happened.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That was the other thing you guys got. Do you view that in hindsight as very advantageous, that. Right. You guys got right on the wave of that with a critical story at the time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And they already had the story. They're like, well, you know, we'll do it when there's a break in the news cycle. Right. And then it was like, me too happened. And then that happened. It was just like, we're just part of that wave. And if it happened another time, it might not have had the same result. I don't even know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Were you scared, though? Because, like, there's months in between this actually coming out publicly and you have to, you know, your grandfather can't be getting surgery for six straight months.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. Oh. So backtrack for that second. So. So we would play basically playing both sides. Like, that's when I was saying some of the. Some of the audio in the. In the thing with Lauren where I'm saying, like, but wait a second, you said this. And I was out by then, so I was making it seem that, like, I had to navigate Nippy's upset.

And like, trying to make it look like I was still in, but, like, confused, you know. But wait a second. You said that Keith was. Is sex involved? That's if you hear the phone calls. Like I'm saying, is Keith having sex with. With people? And she's like, we don't discuss that or whatever it is. Like, she's avoiding this topic.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, because you would never, obviously.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, yeah. So mean. So meanwhile, I'm in Toronto. I've told a proctor who wasn't in DOS about what happened. And. And we had this thing in Nexium. Let's talk about the mlm. Like the tree, the pyramid scheme. There was a coach tree where if something was happening in the organization, we text our coaches who text their coaches. And so it was a great way of disseminating information. So we, like, initiated the coach tree. Sarah Nippy are stepping down from the organization. Mark Vicente, like, left. Like, we are the leaders for this group of people. They're like, what the going on? So we let one person know who we knew wasn't going to tell on us what was going on. And we just directed everybody to her. So she was letting everyone know women are getting branded. Keith is not celibate, like, as much as information as we could. And people were just resigning and exiting and like, quitting. So they don't. But they're not attributing that to me because I'm still terrified of my collateral being released and getting in trouble.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Meanwhile, I'm not telling people personally.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I'm.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Not telling people because I. I'm still afraid. But this one woman calls me who is a coach in Vancouver, and she's like, oh, my God, I heard about the branding. Like, I'm supposed to go to Albany and like, can you please talk to this woman who had assigned, like, the job of bearing the bad news, right, that we're all quitting and what was going on? And she's like, but seriously, Sarah, like, branding. And like, I'm like, pam, I'm gonna show you my fucking brand. Do not go to Albany. And she's like, what you really got? And I'm like, the first time I've actually said it, I'm like picking my son up at daycare and I'm back in Vancouver now, you know, huddled in the jcc, like, trying to explain what's going on. Then I find. Then I find out, like, the next. Not even the next day, within the next hour, she's already in dos. And she'd been sent to record me breaking my vow of secrecy. So from that point on, everybody in the upper ranks cut contact with me at my. Like, I'm now a defector. I'm, you know, a supply suppressive. I'm. I'm. I've been revealed as. As. As being, you know, not to be trusted. Do not contact.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Is there a part of that, though, that also feels like a little liberating?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah. All right. Yeah. Now. Now is guns a blazing.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right. So you. How did you first make contact? You had told the FBI they didn't interview again and for the two and a half day thing until after.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And that wasn't even them. That was a different. Like, it was a different office. Different office, different district.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, they put the real. The real FBI agency.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah, apparently. Yeah. The. The district that I reported in didn't give a. The. I always forget if it's the southern or the eastern district.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, they'll give a. There.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Where any one of those will give a. Yeah. Albany, I guess, is where they're sending the 1/3 or whatever. But.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So how did the.

Let's go back to Mark, actually, for a second, because Mark knew something about dos and stuff going on there, and then you were able to corroborate it. And then you, You. He tells Nippy. You have the conversation with Nippy. You go to FBI, you get the out of town. Mark is now left Nexium. Right. I have that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We're all working together. Mark. Mark's working together. I mean, there's a whole other thing that we didn't get into that's in the vow, where Catherine Oxenberg, who's.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, let's do this. Actually, that's important because she's like royalty.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, so she's royalty. She was in Dynasty, she's famous. And her daughter India was also in Diamond Boss. And she was also like part of the. I don't know, she's part of the harem. But she had been given an assignment with Keith as well. So Catherine and Mark and Bonnie and Nippy and I were like, those are the five of us. We're the main people that were all doing different things. Catherine was using her celebrity and her connections, like getting People magazine involved. And like, you know, I. I don't actually know who. I can't remember who got us the New York Times, this article, but somebody did, and that's what led to the FBI. And. Oh, my God. Is the eastern.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What's Brooklyn Eastern.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Eastern district. Thank you. So Eastern district. I'm Canadian. The Eastern district. Mara Penza, who's here in the city, who I love, and she's my hero, was like that. Sex trafficking, and we're gonna get him. And she acted fast. And she contacted my lawyer and brought me to New York. That's in the Valley.

And I gave them my computer, I gave them my phone, I gave them everything. I explained how the organization worked. I mean, similar. Feels a little bit similar to today. Like, here's the straight path, here's how it works. Here's what we did, here's how. And. And I was the first of many witnesses.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Were you ever afraid it was going to be turned on you at all?

[Sarah Edmondson]

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[Host (possibly Julian)]

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[Sarah Edmondson]

But I also knew that I didn't do anything wrong and. And that I was operating on a false premise and that everything that I had done was under the certain context, and I was wanting to, you know, do the right thing. And from that, as soon as I saw what was going on, I feel like I did the right thing. And I was just like, you know, absolutely, here's what I got.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And you were mass calling, like you said, a bunch of people that you just recruited into the organization.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Assuming for regular, you know, improvement and being like, get the fuck away from this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And at this point, now that they knew that I was. Was a defector, I was. Now I was calling people directly, and I had an event at the center where I, like, showed people the brand, and we, like.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How did they react to that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, up until then, it was a rumor, you know, and they didn't. I mean, to see it is pretty. Like, it's. It was pretty graphic, you know, and people were really upset by it, and they didn't. You know, they. They almost needed to see it. Some of them need to. Some of them just hearing that Nippy and I were leaving, like their leadership was stepping down. They're like, well, if they're not involved, I'm not involved.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Involved.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Other people are like, I need to see it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And so Catherine Oxenberg was a part of this group because she had been involved.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She has a sister, right? I believe she does.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think so, yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Can we Google this? I want to make sure I have the family right. Thief. So Google Oxenberg. Epstein. Oh, so the sister was used by Epstein, if I remember correctly. It's been a while. But the sister. I don't know about this was Whistle. Yeah. Christina. Oh, Christina Oxenberg, a second cousin of Britain's Prince Andrew Oxenberg, was part of the same social circles as a convicted sex offender and his associates during the 1990s. All right, it's all. There's a. There's a lot here. So the Oxenbergs are interesting. Can we click their Wikipedia Thief? They're like royalty from another kind. It's not British written. What country are they royalty from? All right. Yeah. Catherine. American actress Oxenberg is the daughter of Princess Olivia of Yugoslavia and her first husband, Howard Oxenberg. She twice played Diana Prince of Whale on screens. This is Catherine who we're talking about. The other one, Christina went. If I'm remembering correctly. It's coming back to me. She went to Tara Palmeri and had Tara interview her on one of Tara's two podcasts. She. Tara did like two eight part series. One was basically called Epstein. The other one was called Maxwell's. This like five years ago. And there were multiple episodes where Christina brought her into the inner sanctum. Like, yo, these people were running around. Here's what they were doing. I knew ghillen in the 80s or whatever. I knew her in the 90s because of the circle she ran in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And was like whistleblowing, I believe on a bunch of that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's your sister?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Sister, yes. To give her credit. Is it her sister? Did we find that out? Can we go down? It'll show it on the right side. Daughter of Princess. Yeah. So she's to sit. Go down a little bit. Thief relative. Catherine Oxenberg's sister. Yeah. Oh, that is quite fascinating.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That like, Catherine is in Nexium. And then Christina was stuck in these circles because they're about. From New York too.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like two separate sides of a different coin.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So many. Like, I saw. I don't know if it's a true document, but I saw Ali Mack on one of the flight logs.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

On the Epstein flight logs.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, on the Internet. Like, I. I don't know if it's true, but, like, that's. And I didn't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Google that. Thief. Let's see if it's true. Ali Mack Epstein flight log.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She goes by Ali Alison, I think.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Probably Allison M. All right, let's do Allison.

You got anything? It just says there's no evidence. But that's Google AI. Yeah. Then maybe that's also said nothing to see here when we typed in Jeff Bezos.

All right. Allison Mack wasn't sure the G Lane.

[Sarah Edmondson]

By the way, for the record, I wish her all the best. I feel the same. No ill feelings with her and Lauren. Like anyone who's woken up and denounced Keith and like.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. So she. What? Because she's featured throughout the Vow, obviously. We talked about this earlier. She also had, you know, the anorexia problems, if you will, like eating disorder problems, to try to please Keith. So she's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She's Tiny with.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She is a victim in. In that way. But she was convicted because she was a part of DOSS and someone who recruited.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Women into it.

But she renounced it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

In court and served. I don't know how much in the end, but you probably Google that. But not as much as she. Like, she got off, I think, a little early for, you know, good. Whatever it's called.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Now. You never. Obviously, like, you got out right away when this happened, and then you. You pushed recruits away. So you. You did all the right things. But.

Do you think.

This kind of goes. This kind of goes back to something we talked about on the last episode, but someone like that, she ends up going down in it because she didn't blow the whistle.

But is she a. Yeah. Is she a victim or.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Absolutely. Like, nobody, even Claire, Lauren, Nancy, Ally. Nobody signed up for what we ended up doing. Right. Right. These women ended up doing more, and they did illegal things and need to be held accountable. And it's not like one or the other. Yes, she was a victim. She also did illegal things. There's a. A legal system for that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yes.

[Sarah Edmondson]

The difference for me is that, like, I didn't. I. Like, she knew about the sex, and she knew that when she was bringing people in that they'd, like, find out about it later.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And you never knew. I never knew about that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So even the people that I did bring into dos, like, they didn't get branded. They never went to Albany. They were, you know, protected them immediately.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How. How did. What were the conversations, like, summer 2017.

With Mark, who was helping you get out, but was also the person who helped you get in?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean.

We were kind of going through it together. Like, he. I mean, he felt. He felt terrible. And just in the same way that I felt terrible for bringing people in, we were all kind of swimming in the. The shame of, like, how do I miss the red flags and embarrassment? And this is before it was even public. Like, it wasn't in the New York Times yet. And that's a whole other level of up.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right. Wait, how so?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, just, like, it being public, like, we. It was.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Now your business is out there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You guys good friends to this day?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I have no hard, like, hard feelings towards him at all.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. He.

And he lost his marriage.

[Sarah Edmondson]

They're still together.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

They are still.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Mark and Bonnie are still together.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But she got out first.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She got out first. She was. We. We nippy. And I say that like her getting out was sort of the catalyst for all this.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And if you watch the vow, she, you know, it stays lovingly like I love you, but I'm not doing this. And it gave Mark the space to like, like she never gave him an ultimatum or anything. She's like, I'm, I'm leaving. And you know, could have presented the.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Information and you need to figure it out on your own time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yep.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So he did.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yep. And that mean as that was happening, I was in dos and trying to figure out how to like all this was happening at the same time time. But her leaving set everything sort of in motion.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Did they tell when you went to Eastern District, what was the name of the attorney again over there?

[Sarah Edmondson]

That Mara Penza. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So when you're doing. Was that where it was, the two and a half day interview?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. In Brooklyn.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. Okay, so are they.

Telling you at some point at the end or during it, like, like, hey, we're going to get this guy, he's going to go to prison for the rest of his life.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like we have not there. They didn't tell you any? No, we didn't know there, There was a lot of time between. Well, actually not that much time. They, you know, they interviewed a lot of people and then they extradited him and There was a six week trial, four hour deliberation and then the 120 year sentence sentencing came, I don't remember how many months later. But that all happened pretty quick considering how slow things most usually go.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, they, I think he was found guilty in like 2019 or something. Okay, so New York Times story comes out.

Everything'S public. What was your initial reaction? Like how, what was. Did you have people from your childhood or friends reaching out like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. What was that like?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Crazy. It was so crazy. And also it was, I was really happy that it was finally out there because we wanted to like, like go on the offensive, you know what I mean? And, but at the same time the article, if you read it, is very dry. It, there's no motion in it and it's very like these women did this and it doesn't really explain any of the, you know, indoctrination and cult. It's like, you know, they're trying not to get sued too. So it's like this, this very data, like fact, fact, fact, fact. And I was, there had been two other women that were supposed to be on the record with me. One of them changed their mind at the last minute.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Minute. Why?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Scared yeah. And. And also was in the vow and changed her mind about that. And the other woman's story, they didn't put in for space, so it was just me. And these are like. I just felt so alone. Like, I was.

Even. Even to this day, like, there's just so many people that have been affected by this, and no one's, like, come out and really owned it in the same way. You know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That I think you should. I mean. Well, I don't want to tell you how to feel.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But I mean, I. I think there has to be an aspect of that that you should be really proud of yourself because, like, I'm not gonna. I don't want to speak for other victims. I can't imagine all the different emotional things they're playing with there. But, like, you need at least one person to break the dam and. And, you know, know not really the way I want to say it, but, like, be brave enough to come forward. And you did that. And I can imagine. Yeah, it's. I can imagine you. You feel alone with that, for sure. But like, you spoke for all of them. And I'm sure not only did they all know that, but I would venture to say off the record, there's probably been some that have reached out to you and told you some version of that. Am I right about that?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

100.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

So that be. Should. Should I. Again, I don't want to tell you how to feel.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, I appreciate that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I would feel. I would hope you feel very validated by that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I do. Yeah. And I also recognize that a lot of the women have, you know, a lot of shame about it because of sexual stuff, which is largely how these people get away with it, because they. Exactly. They rope them into doing the sexual things and they don't want to be, you know, so who wants to be associated with that?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's the thing that never goes away way for people. It's like the ultimate betrayal. I mean, there's not. There's no. I make. No.

This is. This is like.

This is like total rape. What. What happened to you. It's. There's no distinction there for me. I mean, it's just like. I've never seen anything like it. I've never heard some up. Heard some pretty up stories. This is a1of1 as far as, like, the things that happen happen. I don't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It was a real. I've never really used that word, but it felt like that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

And again, I also haven't experienced that, so I Can't you know, the actual rape victims that may say, hey, no, that's not so. I also don't want. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to. It's the closest.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I said that, not you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's fine.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But in terms of a boundary crossing.

Which is really ultimately what happens slowly over time with cults is your boundaries are getting more and more and more removed. Your autonomy is less and less. Less. And.

I just like.

The absurdity that Keith would think that he could put his initials on a married woman, especially Nippy's wife. Like Nippy's six, two. You know what I mean? Like, what a ridiculous thought that he.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He's a megalomaniac. He has no concept of reality.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. And that he could get away with it. And I think ultimately that's what was happening is that he recognized that people would leave him, and he was trying to create a system of loyalty with blackmail. Right through the branding and keeping people locked in. But it's what blew up. What blew it blew it up for him. He got. He got greedy.

And. Yeah. Mess with the wrong people.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Troy, your son. Troy's 11 now. Does he know any of this?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

How old was he when you told him about it?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I started telling him slowly as it was age appropriate. I got emotional when you asked just because he's been really, like, really supportive and like. Yeah, he's. He's proud of us, you know, and.

My. My dedication is to. To him, to my Both boys. And hoping that one day they'll read it. They haven't read it yet, obviously, and be proud. He's seen Nippy and I be, like, recognized for the vow and. And, like, in public, people who see us and, you know, want to give us a fist bumper. Thank you and. Wow, that's cool. That's really cool for him. Yeah. He knows that we did something cool. Every now and then.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It'll.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Like, he did an assignment for school where he, like, drew a picture of Keith behind bars.

And I was like, oh.

That was pretty epic.

Yeah. I just hope it never bites him in the butt. That's what I really don't want.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Why would it bite him?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know. Like, I don't want him to go to school with someone and be like, oh, their parents were like, they weren't a sex culture. You know what I mean?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like that we'll find out how good a boxer is.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Right?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. I think it'll be all right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Troy is like. He's such a cool Kid. He's just, he's just a real. He's a little baller. He's a total. He's a. He's a baseball player, football. Like, he's just so into his sports and he's just like, like.

Honestly, sorry.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's okay.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Having a three year old during this time f. Kind of forced us to get our together, you know? And so I, I don't want, ever. I don't want to like, pressure. I don't want to.

It's a lot of pressure to put on a kid to say like, you saved me, but like at being able to, to. To refocus into being a mom.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

You had a reason.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I had a reason. Reason to like, get out of the trauma and like get on with my life. And also having a kid.

Just made me want to like, warn other parents, you know, this is what, this is what it looks like. It's not just cults. It's like pedophile coaches and you know, it happens in the boy Scouts, it happens gymnastics teams. It happens. Like any group can become culty. Any, any. You gotta know what the red flags are. So it's.

Sorry, I was. Grab a tissue.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

No, take your time.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Paper towel? Yeah. I'm very grateful for Troy.

For giving me a reason to not wallow in it for too long and just.

Get on with my life.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's funny how in the worst of situations, life can throw you these.

Unbelievable silver linings that, you know, teach you more than. Than you can even teach them. In this case, in a way, through no effort of his own. But also, I think it's pretty cool that like literally having him was the initial thing that started to make you go, wait a minute.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, you know, what am I doing this for?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right? What is this? What's going on? Because that protective mode goes into just like you were outlining, like now, now I would imagine when it comes to being vigilant on, you know, the worst types of pitfalls, there's probably not a better parent out there than you and Nippy, like, you understand all of it, you know, so if there were ever anything questionable around him, you know, around either of your boys, like, you're gonna be up to that right away. That's, you know, so it's like you go through a horrible thing, you got to pull yourself out of it. But then, you know, there's something you can, there's good you can use for instrument and you're using it on, on your own kids, which is great.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. And teaching them things like not just you know, beyond predators, but just like, you know, teaching them how to trust their gut and to, to voice. Like, and it's coming to, it's me. In the past, a couple times where Troy's been like, mom, I've said, no, don't cross my boundary. And I'm like, shit, you're right. Damn it, you're right. Troy and I apologize. I apologize. We, God, we have such a great relationship. It's just the other day I was, we were. Started at a new school and we had like a school event and he was looking really grubby and I was like trying to get him to change his clothes because like I'd wore it was put on something nice and he was like, mom, I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm like, I was pushing and he again did that. And I, I had to recognize, like, oh my God, I, this is me wanting to fit in, in this environment. Like, and I, like, Troy, I want you to know I, I, I, I pushed and I'm, I don't, I'm sorry for that. And that was my own insecurity about wanting to like, fit. And you know, and he's like, it's okay, Mom. Is this perimenopause? I'm like, yes.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Blame it on that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I could believe a lot of things on that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's still like, you know, because you said you started telling him over time. He's only 11 now. I mean, I don't know how much of it he knows. I don't need to ask that. But like, that's a, it's a very, that's, that's impressive that he's able to handle it that well. It's a very heavy thing. There's no playbook.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, there's no playbook.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Tell a kid.

[Sarah Edmondson]

We actually saw, I can't remember what the cartoon was. We saw some cartoon where like, it was, it was almost like the writers had seen the Vow or something. But it was like a dragon that was hypnotizing the other dragons and it was some kids cartoon. And I was like, that's what it was like for me. And I showed him the show and he's like, oh. So we called it being that mom and dad were hypnotized, which is sort of true.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Well, I mean, that is literally. Nancy Salzman was a hypnotist. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I, I think there is a long, long. I'm not an expert, but I, I think there is a long term aspect of that with like the psychological anchoring we were talking About, I would imagine from a neurological perspective, it's a very similar phenomenon to literal, like on site hypnotist. Yeah, hypnotism in a way. Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Did you see the show Sirens? It was. It's probably more of a chick show than Sirens. It was on Netflix, I want to say, like, pretty recently. And it was sort of like one of those shows was number one for a while, but Julianne Moore was in it and she played the sort of like culty leader. And there was this one scene where she hooks in somebody. And it was just such a great depiction of what it felt like to be locked in with somebody and be seen and then with some and then be swayed. I don't know how to describe. You have to watch it to feel it. But when I was watching, I was like, that's what it was like to be under the spell.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. Did you attend the trial?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I did not attend the trial. So I had my second babe, my second baby, Ace. And I was originally going to be a witness. I was like, geared to be a witness. And then Lauren turned. So Lauren, like, I would have been testifying.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, she got to testify.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So she got to testify so I didn't have to.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I mean, that's great. I'm also surprised they still didn't make you do that because there's always the accusation, sometimes correctly in other cases. Cases, by the way, where it's like, wow, witness was facing time, so they turned in that way. Whereas you were just like a actual whistle.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I was. But I also would have been a terrible witness because at that point I'd done so much press and they would have been like, isn't it true that, you know, you wrote a book and you got an advance? You know, they would have made it. Their whole thing, their whole angle of Nexium this whole time is that I was like an out of work actress looking for attention. Right. So, like, that was their whole stick. Right. So, like, and I'd said in one interview that it was 25 minutes and one interview that was 30 minutes, like, I'm not a good. I wasn't a good witness anymore. I. They. And they told me that they're like, you're. You've been too public. And they would have just shredded me for being inconsistent or attention seeking.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Well, I mean, it. Look, it did. It did work out. You didn't have to put yourself through that. And he was found guilty in four hours on a very complex list of charges.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Of all seven charges.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. Which means they didn't even let the pizza get there? No, the jury was pretty, pretty clear on the. This. He didn't testify on his own behalf, right?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, no.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That would have been an hour deliberation.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Did you know that his lawyer is also P. Diddy's lawyer?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Wait, the dude with the glasses?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Mark Agno.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I mean, Mark Agno is a good lawyer, but it wasn't good enough for.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's what I was like when P. Did he hired him. I was like, he got. Keith got 120 years. What are you doing? But I guess he did better for.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Hey, listen, they can't win every case. No, but you know, know, listen, those guys I've had. I'm. I'm friends with Brian McMon. He's been on here. Brian McMon.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Remind me who that is.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He. He's one of the best attorneys to ever live. He. He got Bill Cosby off and then quit. And then Bill Cosby got found guilty afterwards. But, you know, I've known Brian McMon McMon since I was four years old.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Wow.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He's from my town. Probably the most moral guy you'll ever meet in your life. Maybe the greatest person ever.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Ever.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like, I will tell that to everyone I've ever known. But he has to do a really difficult job. And we talked about. We. I had him in for episode 115. And you know, he. He was. He opened up about it a lot. It took a while. He's not like a. He's not like a. He's one of those, like, you got to talk for a while and then maybe he'll give you something. But he really did. And. And like, you know, they. I'm sure there's some guys that sit on that side that are actual scumbags and don't give a. And just want to make a lot of money and win cases. But, like, he ain't one of them. And. And there's. And there's some big ones that you would think might be that. And. And they're not. They really. They believe in the objectivity of the law and putting the government to the test. And, you know, when one of their clients is found guilty, who's actually guilty, and they did their job and argued their case, and that's what it is. Like, they go home and they sleep okay with that.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I was always wondering how they sleep. Like, how. But pg.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other podcast. Like four years.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, that one.

I had Jesse Weber in here before it start. Right before it started. He's the guy on law and Crime if you ever seen him. Yeah, he's great. Great dude. And I had him on right when it finished, so I think it was episode 220 with him right when it finished. But. But.

I had a feeling that was going to go down that way because the case had so many problems. I mean, to me, he's so clearly just one of the worst people to ever walk this earth. Unfortunately, that's not evidence. In court, though, they had amazing evidence against Keith. Right. Like, they were able to build that case on all the charges. It was clear they had him on tape everywhere.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

With Diddy, it was like one of the witnesses, one of the main witnesses, like, didn't even show up to court.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, yeah, witnessed. I think it was witness three. Correct me in the comments if I have the number wrong, but, like, she didn't even show up. And then the Cassie one, that's the girl who he beat. The ever Living in the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Living in the. In the hotel.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Horrible.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But, like, there was also.

A lot because of other witnesses. There was a lack of clarity on some of her credence or whatever. It was just. It was a messy, messy case. But I do appreciate the judge still gave him four years. And from people I've talked to, again, correct me, experts in the comments like, it. This was the kind of thing where if it were someone else and they've been found guilty of the same charges, they would have gotten time served.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And they'd be out of there. So the judge still gave him time and hopefully he's blackballed forever. But there was. Was. There was some other stuff going on there.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Right.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

There were some. That was some blackmail. I can't prove this, but there. I think there were some other reasons.

[Sarah Edmondson]

For that, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, If Keith gets 120, he gets four.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like, that's crazy. Yeah, I totally agree.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Crazy.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Totally agree. But like, better than nothing. Yeah. Did you feel it's better than nothing for Diddy, but for Keith, once you knew he was going away forever, was there a sense of. Of relief?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah, relief, vindiction, you know, Also sadness for, like, this world that we thought we were building. That wasn't what it was like. Just the grief of all that, you know, the lock, the last. The lack of community, loss of community. All the collateral damage of all the people's lives caught up in it, Years lost, like so much feeling. And then also Keith's smart, you know, he's. He's still trying to find loopholes. He's did this whole thing about, like, the FBI planted evidence, started this big campaign and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like the. The evidence that they said, by the way, that he. Plant. That they planted was about what, the other Fernandez sister being underage and like a photo of like, a scar that was the metadata. This was a shit show. But, like, worst case scenario. Can you want to do another trial? Let's. Let's get that sister on trial. The first time she didn't testify because she didn't want to be involved now. And then she ended up writing a letter. What's it called? A victim impact statement. Yeah, victim impact statement that like, put most of the other evidence like this. The. Like, she's. Like, he started. He started with me when I was 15.

And correct me if I'm wrong in the comments, something to the extent of like. Like you. So, okay, let's say worst case scenario, FBI planted evidence. Let's. Let's try this again. And we'll start with Cami on the witness stand and she.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And he trafficked her here from Mexico.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I mean, it's like.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. So you want. You want. You want to start this again, Keith? Like. Like, so anyway. But there's just always the back of my mind that he's going to find some loophole. Right. That's. But so far he's, you know, living his best life in prison.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. I don't think it's very good lives. Thank God.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do we know of any family he had? Minus the.

[Sarah Edmondson]

His mom. His mom died when he was young. His dad also has since died. He's got. He's got a do. He's got two kids. So one is the one that escaped, and the other one is. Is Mariana Fernandez son. And they. They're in Mexico. I don't know anything. I don't know how that's going. But as far as I know, she's still in. I mean, she's got Keith's son.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

She's still in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Well, she's. Yeah, she's still a believer as far as far as I know. I could be wrong. Oh, my God. Yeah. And their. Their son's name is kmar, which is a combination of Keith and Mariana. K E M A R K Martin. Poor kid.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do you forgive Lauren?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. She wrote a really beautiful letter that I got through my lawyer, and she knows that I forgive her. We haven't been able to talk because of the civil case, but I'm hoping, like, I really want to hug her. And did you know that parents rank teaching financial Literacy as the toughest life skill. That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With greenlight, you can send money quickly, set up chores, automate allowances, balance and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save, and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built. Try Greenlight risk free [e-mail]. spotify like, have resolution. I don't know if we'll ever be, like, you know, friends again, but, you know, a lot of times past, her. Her testimony against Keith was the nail in the coffin. She woke up, she's made amends. We're good.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Good for you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What. What? Civil. You can't talk to her because of the civil.

[Sarah Edmondson]

There's a civil case, Edmondson vs. Renary, that's in. In action.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, and she's a witness in that or something?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't really fully understand. I'm not allowed to talk. She's been let out of it like she was originally. It was.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right. Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

But we've let her out because she's cooperating, but I'm still not allowed to talk to her.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Got it. And that's still ongoing?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Obviously. What a mess.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right. I don't even. I don't even want to ask this.

[Sarah Edmondson]

One, but go for it. Can't say I'm gonna answer it, but we'll see.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do you forgive Keith?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. No.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Good for you.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You. You. Not you. You.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Keith.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yes. I was gonna fall under the table.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No. Rotten. Hel.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

I don't think he wants forgiveness either. I think he's pretty bought in.

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, he. He thinks he's. I don't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It.

What do you think now. Now that enough time's passed, you. You've been out for a while. The story's been public for a long time. You've gone about your life. You raise awareness, not just to this, but to other things. You know, it's. It's a.

It's something that's always going to be with you. There's aspects of it that are always going to be traumatic. That's just how it is. But now that years have passed, like, do you forgive yourself, too?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. You're a good interviewer. Wow. Yeah, I do. It's. It's been a long healing journey together. But, yeah. Yeah, I do.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You should. Thanks.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What. What about Nippy?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Do I forgive him? Oh, I think I already asked that. But does he.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Does he forgive himself? Does, too.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think so. Yeah, I think so.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You know, we're.

You know, we. We work together. We have this podcast together. We're writing a book together now of, like, everything we've learned and trying to figure out how to, like, package it all up in a little bow so we can give it to other survivors and maybe wrap this chapter up, which I feel like it's kind of coming to an end soon. You know, maybe back to Hallmark movies. I don't know they'll ever have me again. But.

You know, our healing journeys are very different. Like, his. His role was different in the organization. He didn't recruit in the same way. I. I had a lot of. I had a lot of cleanup to do, you know, making sure everyone had a lawyer, making sure everyone had therapy, get back on their feet. Like, I. He didn't have that same. That same level of responsibility, I don't think, because he didn't bring people in in the way that I did. So I think his is more. Was wrapping his head around, like, how did he fall for it? You know, like, how did he. How did he miss it?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Everyone's gonna feel that way. It's amazing, though, that you guys have a great marriage through all this, meeting each other in there. Then obviously you get the blessing of having some kids along the way.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That's our silver lining.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's a huge silver lining. And, like, you guys get out together and everything. But were there times where you were worried your marriage wasn't gonna work strictly just because of the weight of the situation? Not necessarily your own two faults? Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, maybe at the beginning, when. When the PTSD was really bad and we didn't really know what we were going to do, but Covid was actually a really. And it was terrible for most people in the world. For us, you know, we'd been. We'd gone back to acting, and then all of a sudden, the world shut down, and we could just, like, be together as a family and go for hikes and slow down, and that was a really good time for us to just reconnect and figure out what's next. And then the veil came up, and then our lives blew up, and we started a podcast, and we're like, okay, I guess this is what we're doing now. But this was. That kind of happened by accident. We weren't like, you know, this is going to be the next phase of our lives. But it's worried.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's. Things happen for a reason.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It worked out that way.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And it's it's like you're. You're constantly being able to face it together, too, which I think is great. You know, not that you want anyone to be a victim, but if you're going to do it, you have two people that understand.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Glad I'm with him in this. There were so many other women that got out, like, other women that I was branded with, actually, that were alone and, like, their families were like. You joined a cult. You're dumb, you know, And. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Terrible families couldn't.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh, yeah. Like, you would have some. We have distant family members that were like, I told you it was a cult. And I'm like, you know that you'd be surprised how some people are just not very sensitive to the topic. My immediate family was like, I'm so happy you're back.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Okay. You know?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, no, no. My mom and my dad, my brother, brother and sister in law. Like, everybody has been amazing. I'm talking more like cousins, and that's still crazy.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Like, yeah, you. But so your. Your relationship with your mom and your dad. Great is great.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

And what, so your dad was never. Never in it or anything?

[Sarah Edmondson]

No, he took her. Kill him also.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, he did?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, he pulled him in. Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Everybody.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

God damn it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. There are no stone left unturned, right? Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But how's. How does he feel? Like, obviously, you said he's been very supportive.

[Sarah Edmondson]

He's very supportive. But, yeah, he. He did enough curriculum on the outside to, like, get the benefit from it, like, the goal setting and things like that. And, you know, there was.

In fact, my mom wanted to do an intervention, and my dad was like, she seems good, you know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Damn it, dad.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I know. My mom was like, see, I shut up at it. But I was like, why didn't you guys try to get me out? Like, even when people would joke about, like, you're in a cult or like, that's weird. I'm like, nobody really sat me down except for one person at the end. That's in my book. Actually, one of my best friend's husbands sat me down, like, tried to show me some of the articles. I'm like, it's all a smear campaign, you know? And he's like, that's not how the media works. Like, some of it can be exaggerated, but, like, showed me the Bronfman stuff and all these things. And I tried to show him the Tourette's movie, and he wouldn't watch it. I was like, look, look.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

He was gonna get.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, I never forget. He, like, Shut my computer. I'm like, look Pepe, you're not even looking at like what's good about it. I'm like, I'm sure there's good. You're not looking at what's bad. And that planted a seed. Cuz I realized I wasn't, I wasn't willing to look at it because I'd been told that was all smear campaign and it's right. Not ethical to take in this slanderous information about Keith. I'm like, well, what if part of it is true? I don't even know. So it, it just, you know, that's all you can do. By the way, if there's anyone listening who's like knows somebody who's into something like this, don't go tell them they're in a culture. Just plant seeds, ask questions seeds, you know, and, and suggest they, you know, watch the vow. A lot of people woke up from things they were in because they saw the vow and they're like, oh shit, I'm in this similar thing. Because when you're in it, you can't see it.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Think that you're dedicated to something and you know, we can see that in politics and we see it in all sorts of groups where it's like you're. Yeah. Separate topic.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah. There's a real. But no, you're absolutely right. I see it all the time. People get their meaning in very strange things these days that are threads forget like a full group where you're a community with people and stuff like that and get sucked in. But you know, do you. You work through a lot of this with therapy as well?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I think so. Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That was a big help.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Oh yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Dealing with ptsd.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yes. Like somebody that.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

With Nippy as well.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean we did couples counseling. We still do. We. I did my own like cult related like speaking to therapists who are cult special specialists. Which is. Which is a very different thing. Like your average therapist is not if they don't understand coercion or they don't understand cultic dynamics or high control groups are not gonna be able to help. Really.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Whoa.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. Especially if like this or Landmark or any of those other lgats. Remember large group awareness trainings. If you go. And that's a. Those are therapy based programs. If you go to a regular therapist, a lot of the questions will sound the same as the questions that were asked to me. And so it's be very triggering.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

So I was very lucky to have a couple of therapists who like already knew about nexium. Already knew. The players already knew about Nancy. Oh, that's huge. Yeah, huge. Very, very lucky.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Do you forgive Nancy?

It's a complicated one.

[Sarah Edmondson]

She's never. I mean, Lauren wrote a letter. You know, Nancy could write a letter. If you watch season two of the Vow, there's actually. And she's being interviewed by the Vow people, and she said there was a time when she was more mad at me than she was.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Was at Keith.

For blowing the whistle.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah, Keith is the one that ruined her life. I just exposed it. Not me personally, but, like, the group of us, you know? But, like, I was sort of. I was sort of the face of it. Right. And she's directed that at me. I mean, that was a whole other thing. Like, I was the darling of Nexium. I was the top star recruiter. I was like, bringing all these people into the organization, making the tons of money. I'm saying I'm hurt. I'm saying I'm leaving. You don't call me me.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

You don't say, like, hey, are you okay? Do you need an em. Like, how can I help?

[Host (possibly Julian)]

That's crazy.

[Sarah Edmondson]

It's crazy. And that's. There. There's actually a phone call if you want to be very satisfied. Season two of the Vow, Nancy, for some reason, saved a message where I'm like, the. Are you doing. Why aren't you. Like, you're. You're like, I. I call her out, and she saved this voicemail and played it for the Vow filmmakers. They even called me and they're like, can it. Okay if we play this? I'm like, go ahead. I mean, captures a slice of the time where I'm like, why aren't you even reaching out to me? Like, she called me her bonus daughter.

Cults will cut people off as soon as you're not in line with the mission.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Seen it again and again in all these examples. Did this. Like we had talked earlier about you not necessarily having a religion or spiritual thought process growing up or anything like that. And then you found some meaning, obviously, and purpose and what obviously, obviously turned out to be a cult. But, like, what now? Now that you have kids and you're removed from this? Like, do you ever think about what it's all for?

[Sarah Edmondson]

Always.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

What do you think?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Good answer.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I'll never know anything ever again. Is one thing I feel is when people are like, oh, it's this or that. Like, we're on this huge planet. We're going through space. There's, like, other. Who Knows what. What else is out there? I feel like I'm. I'm open but also closed at the same time. You know what I mean? Like, I'm a curious atheist. I. I identify culturally as being Jewish. I celebrate Christmas. I'm a human. I care about people. I.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Right.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I do yoga. I smudge some sage, drink my green juice. You know, Like, I, I have my patterns of things that make me feel good and grounded. I put my feet in grass. I go hike in nature at microdose. I like, try to take care of myself, myself.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

There you go.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Is there a part of you that wonders how, like.

How like a creator could let something like this happen on earth?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know if I have an idea of like a creator. I guess I feel like there's some source bigger than us. Maybe that's. I don't. Sometimes when I'm on mushrooms, I'm like, is this even real? Like, are we in a matrix? Like, what. What is this? Walk through Times Square and be like, what the. What are we doing? What is this? I don't know.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Thief's like, no, no, I'm good.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah. I accidentally did it last night. I was like, this is up Pass the naked cowboy. Yeah, yeah. Clutching my purse.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I don't know, I just.

I miss at the stage now where like, like I'm. It happened for a reason. And I know that sort of woo. Spiritual like everything happens for a reason. No, it's not, it's. It's how I've had to like, you know, make sense of it. Like, okay, I, I did that so that I could do this is sort of how I, how I feel about it now.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

If there's someone listening right now who.

Maybe is coming to the realization that whatever, in whatever context, you know, they're a part of a cult or caught up in something like that and they are. Are afraid. Afraid to get out. Afraid to say anything. Just afraid to get out.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Start there. What would you say to them?

[Sarah Edmondson]

I'd say, don't tell anybody in your group. Don't go to your upline or your coach or your proctor or your priest or your whatever above you. Go outside the organization. Do some research.

We're a little bitculty.comresources has a of ton of things that people look at. Books and podcasts and movies and cult informed specialists, but also like, you know, lists of what makes a cult. And if you're unsure of something like, go to Reddit, go to find people who've left and find out why they left. Don't, don't tell the organization you're questioning, because that's really dangerous. But if people are part of something and they want to question it and they want to get out, there's so much resources on the other side, side that are available for people.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Yeah, I've seen some really good examples of that with Scientology. I was obviously familiar with that. But, you know, they have like an underground railroad system there of people getting them out. They need it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

I mean, it's.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

It's. It's crazy and it's. And it's scary and, you know, I, I really appreciate you being so open about this today. I know none of that goes away and it's. And it's. And it's difficult. But, you know, you coming out, out has saved countless, countless people who were in it and are able to get out and people who would have been in it and now never did. So I hope you and, and Nippy can, Can be proud of that. It's a pretty awesome thing.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you. I appreciate that. I, I'm. I'll keep that in my pocket on the, on the hard days.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Absolutely. So we'll, we'll have a link to your book.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Scarred down below in the description. We'll also link. Link. Let's make a note of this if we would. Thief. Sorry. Let's. Let's link your podcast as well. A little bit culty.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That'd be great.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Hosted by you and Nippy. You guys talk to people from all different types of cults who have gotten out or exposed it or.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Which is very cathartic for us and very, very meaningful. That's actually. So the delay in coming on your podcast. I was working on the next book, which is going to be a resource for. We're hoping to reach college age kids so they can educate themselves and inoculate themselves before they go out into the world.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Oh, that's great.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Okay, so I'll put that in.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Very cool. So when, when that comes out. Yeah, I'll pump that on social media for sure.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

But thank you so much, Sarah. This was.

[Sarah Edmondson]

That was the longest interview I've ever done. And I appreciate the kind line of questioning and the, and the empathy. It makes it easier.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

Well, that's the least I can do. So thank you so much for doing it.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Julian)]

All right, everybody else, you know what it is. Get back to me. Peace. Thank you guys for watching the episode. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button and smash that, like, button on the video. They're both a huge, huge help. And if you would like to follow me on Instagram and X, those links are in my description below. Hey Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Sarah Edmondson]

Payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com.