Julian Dorey Podcast #367: "Groundbreaking!" - 1 Million Yr-old Skulls, Egyptian Labyrinth & Ancient DNA | Michael Button (12/19/25)
Episode Theme Overview
Julian Dorey sits down with Michael Button, an academically trained ancient history researcher and popular content creator, for a sweeping and accessible deep-dive into paradigm-shifting recent discoveries in prehistory, human origins, lost civilizations, and the intractable divides between mainstream academia and alternative researchers. The conversation flows from million-year-old human skulls in China to mysterious ancient labyrinths in Egypt, forgotten mass wars in the Neolithic, mysteries of the Amazon, and how new findings are forcing a dramatic rethinking of how long — and how advanced — human civilization may truly be.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Pushing Back the Timeline of Humanity
(00:30-11:50)
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Academic Dogma VS New Evidence
- Michael explains how traditional timelines (humanity = 6k-10k years old) have repeatedly been overturned with new discoveries.
- Recent fossil finds (Jebel Irhoud in Morocco, 2018) have pushed back anatomically modern Homo sapiens’ age to 315,000-360,000 years.
- Even wilder: a million-year-old skull found in China (Homo longi/Denisovan), suggesting large-brained "human" species co-existed a million years ago:
“If we’re 300,000 years old, that’s crazy. But if we’re a million years old, then...everything’s on the table.”
— Michael (09:41)
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Difficulty Conceptualizing Deep Time
- Discussion on how humans are biased toward recent history and struggle to grasp the scale of hundreds of thousands or millions of years.
2. Cognitive Revolution: When Did ‘Modern Intelligence’ Emerge?
(18:41-26:50)
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Challenging the 50k-60k Year Old “Cognitive Revolution”
- The popular idea (Yuval Noah Harari’s Sapiens) says modern intelligence (symbolic behavior, art, myth) emerged ~50k years ago with evidence like European cave paintings.
- Michael critiques this, pointing to objects like 100k year old jewelry, Neanderthal artifacts, and “eagle claw” necklaces (130k years ago), arguing symbolic intelligence—and even compassion, art, and culture—existed much earlier, and in multiple human species.
“Just because we see cave paintings from 50,000 years ago doesn’t mean that’s when humans got smart.”
— Michael (20:46)
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The Power of Symbolic Intelligence
- Explains how humans’ ability to believe in collective myths (e.g., “the United States”, “Apple as a company”) enables cooperation at massive scales compared to any other species.
3. Interbreeding, Lost Populations & Human Diversity
(27:55-43:32)
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Blurry Lines: Neanderthals, Homo Sapiens, Denisovans
- The lesson: much more genetic overlap and interbreeding than previously accepted. Neanderthals and Denisovans likely had similar intelligence; Neanderthal DNA is still in modern humans (outside Africa).
“We are extremely similar to Neanderthals…It’s an outdated idea they were dumb. We named ourselves Homo sapiens—wise man—to keep our special status.” — Michael (28:45, 29:44)
- The lesson: much more genetic overlap and interbreeding than previously accepted. Neanderthals and Denisovans likely had similar intelligence; Neanderthal DNA is still in modern humans (outside Africa).
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Population Bottlenecks & Lost Stories
- Massive “genetic bottlenecks” mean much of human history, population, and achievements may be lost with little or no archaeological trace.
- Debated how much population size, climate swings, and extinction events impact what is preserved and discovered.
4. Rewriting Ancient Civilization: Gobekli Tepe, South America, and the Amazon
(45:29-94:29, 80:26-111:35)
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Gobekli Tepe & the Tashtapellar Culture (11,600+ years ago)
- Vast stone temples in Turkey pre-date "first civilizations" by thousands of years. Originally dismissed by academia, now largely accepted as paradigm-shifting discovery, especially with evidence of interconnected sites, residential buildings, and implied social complexity (but still not called “civilization”).
“Why have we drawn this arbitrary line? It was hunter-gatherers for so long and then, ‘Civilization.’ It’s a narrative, not a law.”
— Julian (58:07)
- Vast stone temples in Turkey pre-date "first civilizations" by thousands of years. Originally dismissed by academia, now largely accepted as paradigm-shifting discovery, especially with evidence of interconnected sites, residential buildings, and implied social complexity (but still not called “civilization”).
-
Amazonian Lost Civilizations
- Lidar scans reveal earthworks, often geometric, suggesting large, complex societies (possibly cities) in the Amazon and Peru (Caral-Supe). Early Spanish explorers’ stories, roundly dismissed for centuries, now gain credibility.
“It’s proof civilization in South America is far older and more complex. We underestimated how destructive the Earth is for erasing our past."
— Michael (82:02, 14:54)
- Lidar scans reveal earthworks, often geometric, suggesting large, complex societies (possibly cities) in the Amazon and Peru (Caral-Supe). Early Spanish explorers’ stories, roundly dismissed for centuries, now gain credibility.
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Academic Resistance & Suppression
- Michael recounts how claims challenging “Clovis first” in North America (humans arrived 13,000 years ago) resulted in ruined careers, shunning, and even dangerous accusations (e.g., being labeled a CIA plant, 99:21).
"We decide something cannot exist, so we don’t look for it. And then, because we don’t find evidence, say it doesn’t exist. It’s a circle.”
— Michael (67:52)
- Michael recounts how claims challenging “Clovis first” in North America (humans arrived 13,000 years ago) resulted in ruined careers, shunning, and even dangerous accusations (e.g., being labeled a CIA plant, 99:21).
5. Megalithic Mysteries & Ancient Technologies
(61:36-66:17, 91:27-95:59, 153:24-174:48)
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Similarities in Construction Across Continents
- Striking similarities in stone work in Egypt and South America (foundations, polygonal blocks, techniques), but Michael cautions against jumping to connection without clear evidence. He embraces the possibility but stays evidence-based.
- Discusses the advanced construction at Ollantaytambo, Sacsayhuamán, Tiwanaku—how massive stones were moved and placed remains mysterious given known technologies of attributed cultures (Inca, etc.).
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Egypt’s Lost Labyrinth at Hawara (New Discovery)
- Ancient accounts describe a vast labyrinth surpassing the pyramids; recent radar/scans suggest a massive geometric structure may still exist underground at Hawara, Egypt. Bureaucratic or environmental (flooding) obstacles prevent excavation.
“Herodotus said it was greater than the pyramids. Modern scans show vast geometric grids beneath the sand… This could be the most important archaeological discovery of our generation.”
— Michael (153:24-162:54)
- Ancient accounts describe a vast labyrinth surpassing the pyramids; recent radar/scans suggest a massive geometric structure may still exist underground at Hawara, Egypt. Bureaucratic or environmental (flooding) obstacles prevent excavation.
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Giza: Construction, Dating, and Water Erosion
- Questions persist around the Great Pyramid’s construction timeline (“A stone every 3 minutes, 24/7 for 20 years?”) and the evidence that weathering on the Sphinx dates to much older, wetter periods.
6. Genetic Evidence of Ancient Prehistoric Wars
(178:07-183:01)
- The Late Neolithic Male Die-Off
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Between 7,000-5,000 years ago, up to 95% of men’s lineages in Eurasia vanished while female lineages persisted. Archaeological evidence suggests massive, systematic male-on-male violence and/or social selection.
“We all descend from the violent survivors. Over 250 massacre sites found. It’s an insane bottleneck shown in our genes.”
— Michael (178:07-182:50)
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7. History, Revisionism & Modern Lessons
(117:00-149:16)
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World War I & II: Importance, Damage of Revisionism
- Michael and Julian bemoan the side effects of revising history to score ideological points and stress understanding historical context ("history is written by the victors"). Churchill’s difficult war-time decisions cited as a case study.
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The Roman Empire's Legacy
- Traces how Roman, Greek, Egyptian, and other civilizations all looked to those before them ("Greeks obsessed with Egypt like we are with Rome").
- The blending of physical, political, and mythological legacies in the shape of Western civilization.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
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On Deep Human History:
"Prehistory is literally 98, 99% of our story, and yet it's just a dark cloud, a shroud of mystery that we don't really know anything about."
— Michael (05:53) -
On Lost Civilizations:
“If something like New York City existed 100,000 years ago, what would be left? The Earth is an incredible recycling machine of destruction.”
— Michael (14:50) -
On Academic Resistance:
“North American archaeologists basically tried to get this guy almost killed because he was making these statements. They wrote a letter to the dictator in Chile saying Dillehay was a CIA plant.”
— Michael (98:54) -
On the Egyptian Labyrinth:
“Herodotus said it surpassed the pyramids... [modern scans] came back with vast geometric grids. [Officials] said it was a national security issue to release data.”
— Michael (153:24-160:38) -
On Modern Science:
“The whole point of science is to disprove the latest thing and get to a higher truth... people act like it’s solved.”
— Julian (68:58) -
On Atlantis/Flood Myths:
"Atlantis is a very interesting story in relation to the wider flood myth... Plato puts the date during the Younger Dryas."
— Michael (175:54)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:30 — Introduction of Michael Button; academic background and alternative evidence in ancient history
- 04:52 — Human timeline pushed back by recent fossil discoveries
- 08:27 — One million-year-old Chinese skull discovery; what it might mean
- 18:41 — Theories on when modern human intelligence emerged; symbolic intelligence
- 28:45 — Genetic overlap and intelligence with Neanderthals, Denisovans
- 45:29 — Academic rejection of disruptive discoveries; Gobekli Tepe & redefining ‘civilization’
- 80:26 — Lost cities in the Amazon; new Lidar evidence, academic suppression, South America’s forgotten complexity
- 91:27 — Megaliths in Peru (Ollantaytambo, etc.) impossible construction
- 94:29 — Oral vs written tradition in South America; Clovis First theory, Monte Verde & Bluefish Cave suppression
- 111:35 — Weyatlaco site in Mexico; 250,000+ year old possible human artifacts, official backlash
- 153:24 — Egypt’s underground Hawara labyrinth; radar scans, ancient sources, suppression of evidence
- 174:48 — Sphinx water weathering, covered entrances, debate over intentional concealment
- 178:07 — Massive male die-off in Neolithic; genetic bottleneck
- 117:00 — WWI and WWII: historical revisionism, Churchill & the cost of historical context
- 141:13 — Ancient Britain pre-Rome; Queen Boudicca and the Roman invasion
- 144:15 — Ancient Rome, transition from Republic to Empire
- 175:54 — Atlantis, flood myths, Plato and the wider context
Tone & Style
- Michael Button: Analytical but open-minded; bridges mainstream academic rigor with willingness to entertain paradigm-shifting and controversial ideas. Dry, British humor. Emphasizes evidence and nuance over sensationalism.
- Julian Dorey: Curious, energetic, skeptical-but-engaged layman’s perspective; acting as surrogate for the audience with pointed (sometimes irreverent) questions and “how do we actually know that?” challenges.
Conclusion
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in ancient mysteries, cutting-edge prehistory, and the struggle between dogma and discovery. Michael’s balance of evidence-first thinking and curiosity for the truly unknown sets a model for bridging divides in the field, and the array of topics—human origins, lost labyrinths, Amazonian civilizations, ancient wars, and the DNA in our bones—guarantee a captivating journey through the shifting sands of our long-hidden past.
Find Michael Button’s research and content on YouTube at [Incredible History] and dive deeper into the episodes referenced for visual material.