Podcast Summary: Julian Dorey Podcast #385

Episode Title: “They’re Underwater!” - MIT Drone CEO on WW3, China Spy Drones & Submersive UFOs
Guest: Jesse Hamel (CEO of Victus, former 20-year Air Force officer)
Host: Julian Dorey
Date: February 17, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features Jesse Hamel, CEO of the AI-integrated drone company Victus and a 20-year Air Force veteran, in a deep-dive with Julian Dorey on the history and current landscape of drone warfare, technological evolution, the strategic threat posed by China, the vulnerabilities of the U.S. GPS-dependent infrastructure, and the growing role of underwater and autonomous drone technology. The conversation also delves into national security procurement dysfunctions, the future of AI, and broader philosophical reflections about human direction, culture, and spirituality amidst rapid technological change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Drone Warfare (00:00–23:00)

• Origin of Drones: Jesse traces military drone history from early unmanned aircraft used in Afghanistan to modern AI-driven swarms.

  "We started calling them this almost as like a pejorative. But the first one's really...Operation Enduring Freedom. So Afghanistan timeframe." — Jesse (01:32)

• Early Advantages: Cost-saving by removing humans; large Predator/Reaper drones offered long endurance and rapid intelligence gathering.
• Rapid Adoption: Drones became ubiquitous in U.S. war zones post-2001, driven by the insatiable demand for battlefield surveillance and targeting ("pattern of life" analysis).
• Technical Growing Pains: Early incidents (e.g., drones colliding with crewed aircraft), difficulties in airspace deconfliction, and the need for new procedures.

  "A C130 was attempting to land...and a drone base just ran right into it. I believe it landed safely, but just ran into it." — Jesse (09:48)

2. Tech Advancements & Ukraine's Impact (17:04–24:30)

• Miniaturization & Open Source: Modern drones are much smaller, built cheaply using 3D printing, open-source code, and commercial electronics (thanks to video gaming tech and platforms like Raspberry Pi).
• Ukraine as a Catalyst: Ukrainian defenders innovated by improvising drones for ISR and devastatingly cost-effective munitions delivery. This demonstrated to the world the power of drone swarms and rapid iteration.

  "I just created the same thing that an American missile...costs maybe $2 million a pop, I just created that for pennies on the dollar." — Jesse (20:04)

• Swarms: The emerging race is quantity — how many drones can a country deploy, and how can they coordinate for both offense and defense.

3. Artificial Intelligence & Word2Vec (24:39–28:28)

• AI Foundations: The Word2Vec breakthrough at Google enabled machines to process human language numerically, paving the way for large language models like ChatGPT and advanced drone intelligence.
• AI’s Military Impact: AI allows for high autonomy, coordination, and resilience in drone operations — particularly crucial for "swarming" tactics and jamming-resistant operations.

4. Drones as Bullets: Industrial and Doctrinal Shifts (28:26–33:38)

• Mass Production Criticality: The future of military power rests on the ability to build and deploy drone swarms in huge numbers ("drones are trending towards bullets").

  "You could argue...how many drones do you have access to? What number of swarm are you able to do?" — Jesse (28:28)

• Asymmetry and the Manufacturing Race: U.S. defense primaries cannot match the volume necessary without fundamental changes in manufacturing philosophy.
• Defense Paradox: Even traditional U.S. air dominance assets can't effectively counter a million-drones attack.

5. The GPS Achilles’ Heel (33:38–41:39)

• Systemic Vulnerability: Almost all U.S. military and civilian infrastructure, including drones, space assets, and logistics, are deeply dependent on GPS — which is easily jammed by nation-states (Russia, China) and even criminals.

  "GPS was never intended to go up in a jammed or any kind of electronic attack environment." — Jesse (33:38)

• Real-World Impact: Criminals have used cheap jammers to foil logistics (trucking, rail) by blocking signals to first responders and law enforcement.

6. Victus’s Innovation: The “Inner Ear” for Autonomy (88:21–103:09)

• New Approach: Rather than rely solely on GPS or visual navigation, Victus models inertial sensor data (like an inner ear), using machine learning to sustain accurate position/navigation information even when GPS is jammed, spoofed, or denied.
• Seamless Integration: Their software can be inserted into existing drone hardware with minimal modification and operates in the background until needed.

  "We invented...a system to allow that device to know where it’s at — basically, answer the question: where am I?" — Jesse (40:51)

7. China, Spyware, and Supply Chain Threats (61:52–119:16)

• Systemic Threat: U.S. reliance on Chinese-built drone hardware (notably DJI) means widespread vulnerability to espionage and sabotage, with effective lobbying hampering regulatory progress.

  "DJI drones...dominate the US consumer market. Dominant." — Jesse (112:39)

• Legislative Obstruction: Efforts to regulate or inspect Chinese drones in state procurement have been defeated by lobbying and strategic testimony designed to appeal to public safety needs.
• U.S. Lagging: While China advances, U.S. procurement practices are locked in Cold War bureaucracy, unable to keep pace with tech cycles.

  "Our own rules have gotten so cumbersome that the 'other way' is now the primary way [to buy things]." — Jesse (65:52)

8. Underwater and Submersible Drones: The Next Frontier (128:04–135:01)

• Subsurface Dominance: The last true frontier, critical for stealth and strategic surprise — the U.S. and adversaries alike are racing to deploy long-duration autonomous undersea vehicles that do not need to surface and reveal position.

  "The sub-surface environment is like the last true frontier outside of like, Mars. That’s where stealth still, still like really exists." — Jesse (128:33)

• Trans-medium Concerns: Speculation that advanced (maybe trans-medium) drones — and possibly unexplained phenomena (UFO/UAP)—could already operate between sea and air domains.

9. Reflections: Culture, Faith, and Tech Responsibility (137:24–164:46)

• On Spirituality and Science: Jesse calls for a humble, truth-seeking approach that harmonizes science and spirituality, seeing both as critical to navigating the future.

  "We live in an existence that has both a physical reality and a spiritual reality. If you are only attuned to the physical, you’re spiritually dead." — Jesse (142:16)

• Leadership & Character: The immense power and risk of next-gen tech mean the world needs tech and military leaders of "incredibly high character and values."
• Societal Rot & Existential Risks: Jesse worries less about a Skynet scenario than about cultural decline — birth rates, meritocracy, and moral courage — being the real seeds of national downfall.

  "I am even more concerned just about kind of cultural rot." — Jesse (156:17)

• Hope in the Small Pot: Both agree meaningful change requires people to "boil their own pot" — focusing on what they can control within the larger ocean of societal challenges.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It became almost like crack...you can never have enough drones in the air, because I want every one of my TVs. And as soon as I get those TVs filled, I want more TVs." — Jesse (15:12)
• "Drones are trending towards bullets." — Jesse (28:26)
• "Fiber optic drones are a terrible, terrible idea. But they did it because there’s no better solution they’ve had yet." — Jesse (105:11)
• "There’s not a single technology that we can’t assume the Chinese are actively trying to pursue." — Jesse (103:09)
• "Treat the government like a commercial customer. Not treat the government like something we’re fleecing." — Jesse (74:08)
• "The name of the game for maritime force projection is, I believe, in the subsurface environment...the key is having many, many autonomous and manned-unmanned-unmanned teams." — Jesse (128:33)
• "[Faith] is not a rational thing. Faith is that leap of faith off the building and you don’t know what’s down there." — Jesse (149:19)
• "You want an environment where there’s like a thousand companies...not just three or four primes at the top, taking it all." — Jesse (69:58)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Drone History & Early Warfare: 00:00–15:00
• Afghanistan/Iraq Use Cases: 08:00–16:00
• Drone Swarm Race: 22:50–33:38
• AI Transformations (Word2Vec): 24:39–28:28
• Manufacturing & Industrial Base Issues: 28:26–33:38
• Critical GPS Vulnerability: 33:38–41:39
• Victus’s "Inner Ear" Solution: 88:21–103:09
• Chinese Drone Espionage Problem: 112:13–119:16
• Underwater Drone Frontier: 128:04–135:01
• Philosophy & Faith Discussion: 137:24–152:32
• Leadership, Tech Responsibility & Societal Rot: 156:17–164:06

Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is candid, technical yet accessible, and laced with gallows humor, humility, and thoughtfulness. Jesse balances deep operational experience with a visionary take on the responsibilities and dangers of technological progress. The ultimate message: The future belongs to those who can innovate rapidly, defend their infrastructure, scale for both peace and war, and retain their moral compass amidst immense uncertainty.

For those seeking a primer on modern drone warfare, US–China tech rivalry, the fragility of our digital and physical infrastructure, and the ethical challenges at the frontier of AI and national security, this episode is an invaluable listen.