#397 - “Total SICKO!” - Catching Predators Legend on Epstein Files & Roblox COVERUP | Chris Hansen

Summary

Julian Dorey Podcast #397: “Total SICKO!” – Catching Predators Legend on Epstein Files & Roblox COVERUP | Chris Hansen

Date: March 17, 2026
Guest: Chris Hansen

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Episode Overview

In this gripping and unflinching episode, renowned investigative journalist Chris Hansen joins Julian Dorey for a deep-dive into the dark world of online child predators, the ongoing impact of the Jeffrey Epstein case, and the controversy surrounding child safety on the Roblox gaming platform. With more than 45 years of experience, Hansen shares behind-the-scenes stories from the iconic "To Catch a Predator" series, offers commentary on systemic failures, and discusses his latest investigative documentary on Roblox. The conversation traverses wild sting operations, legal and cultural challenges, memorable cases, and the psychological underpinnings of predatory behavior—delivered in both sobering detail and with Hansen’s signature directness.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Enduring Impact of "To Catch a Predator"

[00:32–15:56]

• Hansen recounts how the show started, the tension of early investigations, and the surprising number of predators (17 in one house within two days).
• The evolution from no law enforcement participation to essential collaboration for prosecution.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 03:10): “It will be 22 years this March since we did the very first investigation in Bethpage, Long Island...17 guys surface, including a New York City firefighter. And I thought, holy hell, what have we found here?”

2. The Mechanics of Predator Operations

[12:13–21:18]

• Insight into how decoy operations manage the risk of multiple predators arriving at the same time.
• The ever-present threat of violence—examples of stings where predators showed up armed.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 15:56): “What do you suppose is at the bottom of that backpack? Condoms, loaded .38 pistol, full clip.”
• Legal nuance when predators are armed but have not yet used a weapon to commit a crime.

3. Understanding the Predator Mindset

[21:00–25:48]

• Hansen outlines three categories of offenders: “hardcore heavy hitters” (lifelong predators), “young opportunists,” and professional adults whose fantasies eventually boil over.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 23:36): “My theory is they break down into roughly three categories...some guys have to be imprisoned for life…then there’s this more complicated group in between.”
• Discussion about the drive to offend versus societal efforts to diagnose, treat, or incarcerate.

4. Technology, Culture, and the New Frontiers

[27:04–33:03]

• Rise of online spaces and proliferation of platforms—complicating adult-child interactions and investigations.
  • “Used to be three spots, now I can’t even keep track of them anymore.” (Chris Hansen, 27:04)
• The impact of ubiquitous access to both regular and illicit pornography, and its effect on behavior and escalation.
• Double standards and cultural perceptions of female predators; analysis of high-profile teacher-student cases.

5. Trauma Cycles and Responsibility

[33:03–35:21]

• A portion focused on former victims who later become predators, the absence of empathy for offenders, and the limitations of “trauma causes trauma” as absolution.

6. The Epstein Files & International Trafficking

[37:25–54:42]

• Explosive discussion about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, the complicity or negligence of high-profile individuals, and survivors’ stories.
  • How journalism (specifically Julie K. Brown’s work) forced renewed legal action.
  • Power, blackmail, and the luxury of impunity insulating predators.
• The case of Juliet Bryant and disturbing allegations of medical abuse and unexplained “surgical suites” at Epstein’s Zorro Ranch.
  • Discussion of cryptic terms (“jerky,” “recipe”) found in released emails—considered likely code for illicit or illegal activities.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 59:35): “To me, this is code for something more nefarious.”

7. Systemic Accountability and Cultural Critique

[56:14–66:56]

• How powerful figures shield, support, or remain willfully ignorant of criminal abuse (“a sense of impunity”).
• Difficulty holding elites accountable and frustration with many escaping justice.

8. The Curability Question and Rehabilitation

[70:05–74:43]

• Debate over whether offenders can be rehabilitated—Hansen estimates only a minority can truly stop offending.
• Cites emails he's received from men claiming “urges but no offending”; expresses skepticism but openness.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 72:48): “They have these urges, but they’re disciplined to just not act on them.”

9. Parental Responsibility and Preventive Advice

[150:21–153:58]

• Key actions for parents: monitor online activity, keep devices out of bedrooms, foster open communication so children feel safe reporting “bad” interactions.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 150:38): “Tell them there are grownups on the internet who like to trick kids. Kids do not like to be tricked. And that’ll get their attention.”

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Roblox Documentary & Platform Safety

[93:14–124:53]

• Hansen discusses his new “Dangerous Games” documentary focused on abuse and grooming on Roblox, with cases of both sexual exploitation and suicide linked to predator activity.
  • Quote (Chris Hansen, 96:04): “We have come across cases dating back 15 years where children were approached by adults and groomed and preyed upon.”
• Challenges in interviewing Roblox executives—company preferring technical press over substantive accountability.
• Difficulty in balancing privacy, platform moderation, and the need for law enforcement access.
• Lack of sufficient institutional response, lawsuits from survivors, and involvement of state attorneys general.

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Powerful/Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the burden of exposure:
  • [37:05] “I am thankful that I have never seen an image of CSAM, and I never want to see it. But somebody’s got to.” (C. Hansen)
• On the mind of an offender:
  • [23:18] “The need to fulfill this fantasy overrides common sense or any respect for the law or for a child.” (C. Hansen)
• On surviving the work emotionally:
  • [140:36] “You have to have that skill. You must have it, because you can’t spend your life…you’ve got to refresh yourself and develop a recharge of energy to go out and do it a different day.” (C. Hansen)

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Notable Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Quote (Speaker) | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:10 | Launch and early adrenaline of the first "To Catch a Predator" sting (Hansen) | | 15:56 | Predator arrives with a loaded gun—potential consequences and discussion (Hansen) | | 23:36 | Three predator types classified (Hansen) | | 27:04 | Explosion of internet platforms & difficulty for law enforcement to keep up (Hansen) | | 37:25 | Emotional burden on investigators reviewing CSAM; toll on professionals | | 39:48–55:03| In-depth Epstein: legal system’s handling, media investigation, survivor accounts | | 59:23 | “Jerky recipe” codeword in Epstein emails—interpreting evidence (Dorey/Hansen) | | 96:04–105:10| Roblox—exposure of grooming, platform responsibility, corporate response (Hansen) | | 150:38 | Chris’ practical advice to parents about online safety |

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Reflections and Tone

• The conversation is candid, occasionally dark but balanced by Hansen’s forthright, coolly professional delivery and Julian’s depth of preparation.
• Hansen neither sensationalizes nor minimizes; emphasis is on raising awareness, urging institutional transparency, and empowering parents.
• The episode is laced with gallows humor (“Nobody gets out of this who gets caught,” Hansen), but balances it with empathy, especially for survivors and families.
• Both lament and frustration abound regarding the lack of high-level prosecutions—particularly in the Epstein case and with Big Tech’s lack of access for law enforcement.

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Closing Thoughts

Chris Hansen’s decades-long pursuit of those who prey on children, and his willingness to confront institutions from Dateline NBC to Roblox, make for a sobering but crucial conversation. This episode exposes uncomfortable truths about the dark web of abuse that thrives in secrecy and the challenges faced in holding the powerful accountable. Hansen’s urgent call: be proactive, vigilant, and foster conversations—for the safety of children and integrity of society.

Related Links (As per episode):

• Dangerous Games (Roblox Documentary) on True Blue
• Have a Seat with Chris Hansen
• Predators I’ve Caught Podcast

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For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is a masterclass in investigative journalism—informative, humanizing, and at times infuriating. Chris Hansen’s stories are shocking and vital. A must-listen for parents, technologists, and anyone who cares about the fight against child exploitation.

Transcript

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[Chris Hansen]

Hello.

[Julian Dory]

Have a seat, Chris.

[Chris Hansen]

I'm looking for the Julian Dory podcast.

[Julian Dory]

Is that why you're here?

[Chris Hansen]

That's what the transcript said.

[Julian Dory]

I think Thief's got some messages that say otherwise.

[Chris Hansen]

Oh, really?

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, stop stealing my line.

[Julian Dory]

Chris Hansen, it's great to have you.

[Chris Hansen]

Thanks for having me.

[Julian Dory]

It's kind of cool to turn around on you for about three seconds right there. Yeah, you're real trained pro with that response is ready.

[Chris Hansen]

It's almost like you've seen it, you know, you start doing something for 40, 45 years, you start to get good at it, you know.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

I mean, do you like. Obviously people see the videos and it's, it's real stuff, which is a scary part of it. But then the other part of it is afterwards, like you're doing a great thing. You're catching someone and preventing them from hurting a child at that point, obviously, because law enforcement takes care of it. But you know, it's funny after the fact in that way, when you deliver it how you do. But when you go in there, do you still have adrenaline, like pulling every time?

[Chris Hansen]

Especially at the beginning of each individual investigation, you know, a lot goes into it, as you can imagine. So the chatters with law enforcement, the decoys are working, they're talking to different men online and not everybody shows up. Some people say, that's not right. I can't come meet a 14, 15 year old child for sex. And they do the right thing.

[Julian Dory]

Good.

[Chris Hansen]

Others take longer, but they do eventually show up. But when that first one walks in, yeah, I still have that feeling, you know, of my heart being in the throat. That's how you stay sharp. I think you never, you can never take it for granted because you don't know. You think you know who this guy is. We have various means of checking their background if they're using a real phone number, but sometimes you just don't know. And sometimes those are the guys who end up being a doctor or a law enforcement officer or somebody who, you know, it's just, it's real shocking that they would be involved in this sort of Activity.

[Julian Dory]

I mean, I just don't know. Like, I had Tommy G in here, who's a close buddy of mine.

[Chris Hansen]

Tommy G. Came along on one of our stings in Northern Michigan.

[Julian Dory]

And he was talking about it. When we had him here for episode 306, he was like, you know, my heart was like palpitating.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

When these guys were coming in, obviously he hasn't done it 100 million times like you, but it's like you're doing a TV show, but it's real and there's real life consequences to it. And you're doing a great thing, but you're like, oh, my God, like you're about to end someone's life.

[Chris Hansen]

I think that that's what has made the show so enduring and is so captivating for people to watch it. I mean, it will be 22 years this March since we did the very first investigation in Bethpage, Long Island. And you talk about your heart being in your throat. When we did that first investigation, we didn't have law enforcement involved. I mean, I had a security guy, Ron Knight, who was, you know, at NBC at the time, former NYPD lieutenant.

[Julian Dory]

Was he loaded?

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, oh, yeah, he was carrying. He took all the knives out of the kitchen. But we didn't know what was going to happen. You know, in those days, in the very first investigations, we worked with Perverted justice in all the investigations we did at NBC DC online watchdog group, and they posed as kids online. And if somebody made a date with a child, they would post their identity on their website in the beginning of their existence. And if law enforcement could make a case, they would. We thought we'd partner with them, but, I mean, we're in this house and, you know, we don't know who these guys are. And in that first investigation in two and a half days, we had 17 guys surface, including a New York City firefighter. And I thought, holy hell, you know, what have we found here? It was mind boggling. But, you know, the guys would leave. And with the exception of the firefighter, they were never prosecuted for their crimes. That day they took off. They were on tv, but they took off.

[Julian Dory]

They couldn't prosecute that.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, you got to remember that this was very early on in the experience. And so it was even early in the process in the whole movement for law enforcement to do this. I mean, ICAC existed. Internet Crimes Against Children stings were happening, but not to the extent they are today.

[Julian Dory]

Hey, guys, three quick things. Number one, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe. It's a huge, huge help. Number two, if you'd like to join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes, you can join via the link in my description or in the pinned comment below. And number three, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make content from the show and make money, you can join via the Discord link in my description below.

[Chris Hansen]

And so the fact that we did this without law enforcement present, and we did it with an online watchdog group, and even though that online watchdog group did have some relationships with law enforcement, and look, I've been covering law enforcement for my entire career. So at that point, 24 years now, in the second investigation, when we went to Virginia, outside of Washington, D.C. these cases were referred and a lot of them were prosecuted. But it became clear to me early on that in order to be socially responsible, we had to collaborate with law enforcement.

[Julian Dory]

How did you pitch this? At the beginning, it was such a. No one had ever done anything like this before.

[Chris Hansen]

We learned about, I learned about Perverted justice and I put together a pitch for the story pack at Dateline. And I said, look, these guys do this. I think if we can combine their talent as being decoys and our ability to wire a house with hidden cameras and microphones, and we've done that for different kinds of stories over the years, it could be very compelling. And it's a simple pitch pack. It's three paragraphs. Hanson, two days later. Yeah, we bought it. Go do it. Assigned a producer, Lynn Keller. She reached out to Perverted Justice. She wanted to do this. Yeah, we'd be happy to do it. Okay, great. Found a house in Bethpage, as I mentioned, and it belonged to a retired NYPD cop as well. And we set it up and did it. And it was just, it was happening so fast and so furiously that I remember at one point early on, I think it was about the third guy came in and all the transcripts of the online chats were mixed up on the dining room table. We're trying to keep them straight. But I came out for the third guy with the wrong set of transcripts. And so I look at him, I said, well, it says here that you wanted to do blank, blank and blank with a 13 year old girl named Susie. He goes, no, that's not me. I said, excuse me. I go back, get a second set of transcripts, read the name and the details. No, that's not me. Finally, on the third set of transcripts that I grabbed, it was him yeah, that's me. Okay. And it was just stunning to me. Wow. That it was happening so quickly that we couldn't even keep track of the transcripts. And we had people there. I mean, I had a producer, I had an associate producer, I had security. We had, you know, two people from Perverted Justice. We had. The whole crew was there, the camera people, both the hidden camera people with the remote cameras and regular camera guys. One guy, Ronnie Knight, the security guy, had to shove in the basement and said, don't move, don't speak, don't do anything, while another guy came in. This guy who was from Eastern Europe, thought he had just entered some sort of a torture chamber, snuff movie kill zone of some sort. He was cooked, you know, and he left there without being harmed or facing any criminal charges. So that part, those guys were rather fortunate. Yeah, it does. The firefighter was investigated by the FBI and he was prosecuted.

[Julian Dory]

Now, why did they just. Out of the 17 guys that day, why did they just pick?

[Chris Hansen]

Because we knew we were able to identify him by name. We are able to identify him in terms of where he worked, which firehouse in Brooklyn. We went out and confronted him after the fact, and he admitted it on camera. And so the feds had a pretty easy case. And I believe, if memory serves me correctly, I believe he took a plea bargain and I think he had to leave the fire department.

[Julian Dory]

Well, good. Yeah, but this is back in 03.04,

[Chris Hansen]

when it was March of 04.

[Julian Dory]

Okay, so you mentioned it was like a two and a half day investigation before the first one. What did that look like? Because that's not that long a time to put together and get 17 hits.

[Chris Hansen]

Now, you know, Perverted justice had been in the chat rooms and they had been working, posing as children. And, you know, they would go in there and just hang out and if they were approached. And remember, in those days, it was a little. I don't want to say easier, but it was a little more direct because most of this activity was taking place in chat rooms on AOL and Yahoo and that antiquated platform called MySpace. So it was all right there. So if you could go in there and pose as a child, they would have lengthy conversations, sometimes over weeks, and guys would groom and they try to cajole these kids into sexual relationships. And, you know, they thought they'd hit a home run. They thought they found the child of their dreams in this very perverted, you know, potentially damaging and criminal way. So it was more targeted then. And so it wasn't unusual. To have that many guys in such a short period of time.

[Julian Dory]

Well, you and I are talking at a time right now where this really just completely fucked up underworld is, I don't know, maybe finally getting somewhat of the light it should have shined on it by everyone else besides you for once. Because of the stories like the Epstein's, because of the stories like the Roblox, which you and I are going to talk about today with your new documentary, and because of a litany of different organizations of pedophiles that people are just uncovering. But, you know, before you went to do this, you obviously knew it was a problem. You knew these people were out there. Did your perspective get exponentially worse after the very first one shows 17 hits just in one area?

[Chris Hansen]

Look, I didn't know if anybody was going to show up right when I was driving out to that stinghouse during the first investigation. I was wondering if, you know, I just blown tens of thousands of dollars of the network's money. What if nobody shows up? What if this was a great idea but executing it was impossible? And we know that's a possibility with every story, but you don't want that to happen. And as I was on my way out there, the producer called me and said, hey, two guys are due here in 45 minutes. You got to get here. I said, all right, well, I'm, you know, I'm on the Throg's neck. The traffic is going to clear in a minute. I'll get there.

[Julian Dory]

Wait two at the same time.

[Chris Hansen]

We've had that happen on numerous occasions, literally throughout the years. And, you know, we can control it a little bit and have the decoys hold the guy off or just wait a minute. But we've had, we've had. And it happens in virtually every sting. You know, we were out.

[Julian Dory]

Just keep the mic with you, if you don't mind.

[Chris Hansen]

A few months ago, and, you know, one guy had to. I had to finish up quickly because another guy was on his way. We've had guys sit next to each other. We had a case in Flagler Beach, Florida, where two guys came in at the same time. And one guy knew what was going on and one didn't. And one guy looks at the other goes, you know, when he's done with us, we are so screwed. It was Tennis Boy 213 and slaves to Mistress.

[Julian Dory]

Those were their names.

[Chris Hansen]

Those were the screen names.

[Julian Dory]

Not hiding much.

[Chris Hansen]

No. On the second one. No, no. Tennis Boy 213. That was an odd one. But from what he was doing but

[Julian Dory]

how do you have a decoy if two guys get there at the same time? I'm just trying to picture this. What do you mean, a decoys? Keeping them away outside the house.

[Chris Hansen]

Like, well, they're chatting so they can say, hey, hold off for a minute, I'm getting in the shower. Hey, hold off for a minute. You know, my mom popped back in for a second. So there's a million excuses that they could, they could slow the guy down. And typically we don't give out the address, you know, immediately. We wait till they're in orbit till we can control the situation a little bit.

[Julian Dory]

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[Julian Dory]

back per month yeah, it always, every time like when I would see the ones where you'd have obviously like you have the fake kid there when you're doing this. And that was where the show ended up. And it's like, first of all, amazing acting always on those decoys. But, but secondly, you're just like, oh my God, what if something happens real fast and they don't get in there soon enough? Did you ever have close calls with things like that?

[Chris Hansen]

We never had anything that turned out to be dangerous where somebody got hurt. But you do wonder, and people ask me all the time, do you ever feel sorry for these guys? Because sometimes a guy will walk in there, he's 19, 20, 21 years old. Is it the first mistake he's ever made? Does he think that maybe it's okay because the decoy is posing as a 14 or 15 year old? The age difference won't mean much if the relationship were to take root. But then I always look at the examples, like in the episode that drops today, as we record this episode on the 26th of February. And in that case, down in Louisiana, Livingston Parish, Louisiana, a young guy came in and he swore up and down he'd never done this before. He wasn't gonna really do anything. Now, I know in the chat he has talked about making a porn video with this girl. I watched him come into the house and try to give a big hug to the sheriff's deputy decoy posing as the child. You know, there are a lot of young deputies that get involved in these cases. We don't use civilians anymore generally. And so now I've got him on the hot seat and he sticks to his story and he admits it doesn't look good. And we go on and on and we Go at it for about 25 minutes, 30 minutes, and they take him away. His backpack's there. And what do you suppose is at the bottom of that backpack? Condoms loaded,38 pistol, full clip. So what happens now? I doubt very much that he could have gotten in there, got the gun out and got a shot off to the extent that he would hurt me or anybody else. I mean, a lot goes into this in terms of precautions. But what happens if we're not there and he's alone with a 14 year old girl and what happens if she doesn't want to cooperate in the making of this porn video? And what happens if it doesn't go his way and he tries something aggressive and now he thinks he's, he's in trouble and that law enforcement is going to go after him for sexual assault. What happens? Does he use that gun on the girl to threaten her to comply? Does he use it to kill her and hide the body? It raises all kinds of horrific questions. So we have that. So yeah, look, there's an inherent level of danger involved in doing it, right? And I understand that that's part of the draw, that's part of the interest and allure to viewers. And I'm comfortable that we have taken every precaution possible to create a safe environment when we do this. A lot goes into it, as I've said, and so we make it absolutely as safe as possible. Is it, is it absolutely guaranteed? No, nothing's guaranteed. You know, nothing that adventurous or that enterprising is ever guaranteed.

[Julian Dory]

What is the legality in that situation? My first question is, did you find out if he legally owned the gun or illegally on the gun?

[Chris Hansen]

He had the gun legally, we learned after the fact.

[Julian Dory]

So is that illegal?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, it's an interesting question because he can legally own the gun at I believe certain guns can be owned at 18 or 21. In the state of Louisiana, where we were, you can carry that gun without a special pistol license. But if he's using the gun in the commission of a felony, it could be a crime. Right? Because you can possess a gun, you can have it. And we see this in southern states where the carry laws are pretty liberal. But if you use that in the commission of a crime, then you could face another felony. Now, did he use it in the commission of this crime? Not yet. So as far as I know, he has not been charged with a gun crime in that case, because that's what I was thinking.

[Julian Dory]

I'm like, if he owns it legally and it's at the bottom of his bag, and he never took it out. You don't see him go for it ever on camera.

[Chris Hansen]

Technically, it's not a crime, and he's not gonna be charged with it.

[Julian Dory]

But what you're saying is perfectly valid. It's like, why did he have it there?

[Chris Hansen]

Right. We had a situation in Alabama during a sting where I'm interviewing a guy. He's not being threatening at all, but, you know, we're going at it pretty hard. And the lieutenant sees on the monitor in the other room that he's got a big.45 hanging out of his pants. And he comes out, and I didn't see it. I look pretty carefully right at what's going on and what the bulges are and all that, and I always make them take their hands out of their pockets. But the lieutenant came in and said, hey, put your hands up. And he grabs the gun out. He said, do you have a gun? And the guy pulls it out of his pants and sets it on the kitchen counter pointed at me. And everybody, you know, gets a little bit alarmed, and they take the gun and off they go. But it's. It's something we see not in the majority of cases, certainly, but we see it from time to time, outside of

[Julian Dory]

coming in and being direct and obviously delivering your line perfectly every time. What are. What is. What are your first instincts when you walk in there outside of also looking for a gun? You already mentioned that. But, like, what kinds of things are you looking for? Are you just totally clear on, like, let me just address this person and

[Chris Hansen]

see if they understand why they're here to engage? Right. So oftentimes it's not aggressive unless they're aggressive from the start. And I feel that I need to take control of the situation. So in some jurisdictions, law enforcement makes the first contact. Right. And so that makes it easier in some ways because it's already. The situation's settled. The guy's got handcuffs on by the time I interview him. In a lot of the scenarios, I get the first crack at it, and that's when I have to control the environment. So if he starts answering around or trying to go for the door, you know, we have code words between my crew and law enforcement, and when they hear you don't want to do that, that's their cue to come in and take control of him. Now, in most incidents, I can become a little bit more aggressive and domineering, and I can get him in the. In the chair, in the seat, and then we can start it. And if they start. Who are you, what do you think you're going to do? And sometimes they think they know exactly who I am. Yeah, I mean, many times in the chats now we see this sounds like a Chris Hansen thing or this sounds like a Sheriff Grady Judd thing or Sheriff Chris Swanson thing, you know, or we had one guy in our most recent investigation in Livingston Parish, Louisiana, who actually sent an article from the local paper about a previous sting I had done with the sheriff, Jason Hart. He said, you know, they work together on some of these things. And still came over and felt so comfortable that he got in the pool and the hot tub at the decoy house, at the sting house. And then I confronted him. He said, I knew it. I. What did you know? I knew it could be you. I said, then what are you doing here? And the drive to fulfill the fantasy of having sex with a child for some of these men is so strong, just like a heroin addiction where they know there's a 20% chance fentanyl could be in the heroin, it could kill them. They know there's a 20% chance it's me or some other law enforcement agency looking for adults preying on children and they could get busted. And the need to fulfill this fantasy overrides common sense or any respect for the law or for a child.

[Julian Dory]

Where does it come from? Where do you think it comes from?

[Chris Hansen]

Isn't that what we'd all want to know? I wish I could tell you. I know it's not a one size fits all diagnosis. I am not by any stretch of the imagination trained in psychiatry to be able to give you a clinical diagnosis in any of these guys. But having looked at hundreds of them in the eye across from a table, just like we are speaking now, I can tell you that my theory is they break down into roughly three categories. Right? There's the hardcore heavy hitter. He'll do this with or without the Internet. He'd have been the guy at the mall, you know, the movie theater, the bad little league coach, whatever, wherever he can get access to kids. These guys have to be imprisoned for life. They're the young guys, the opportunists. 19, 20 years old, you know, if the girl's willing. They don't see it as a crime. Even though I would argue there's no difference between a 19 year old predator's danger and a 39 year old's predator's danger. Right? It's the same danger to a child. And then there's this more complicated group in between, you know, the professional in his 30s, 40s or 50s. And he's thought about this, he's thought about his urges for a boy or a girl. And normally they can keep that in check. They operate their regular lives and then it gets to a point where they fantasize so frequently that the only thing that will fulfill the fantasy is a real life encounter. And that's when we see them knock on the door of our Stinghouse. Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

The way I'm thinking about how you just put that really is also like what part of life someone's into.

[Chris Hansen]

The.

[Julian Dory]

The first category aside, the people is

[Chris Hansen]

who you call some of these guys. They just, they got to go away. These are the guys who, you know, could face castration in Louisiana, they could face the death penalty in other states. And maybe that's good. Maybe they should, because that's the only thing that's going to stop them besides lifetime incarceration.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, yeah. You can't. It's the ultimate. It's like, it's. It's like being a vampire.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

You know, you do that, you do that to a kid. There is something you are taking from them for the rest of their life that can never be fixed.

[Chris Hansen]

And what causes that? Is it wiring of the brain? Is it a childhood experience? Is it the fact that they were victimized as a child? Is it any number of things? Yeah. I think again, there's no one straight line diagnosis for this. And we want easy answers in society. Right. In American society. We want. This is a bad guy. Lock him up forever. This is a bad guy. Give him a shot that's going to keep him from offending. This is a bad guy who should go into treatment and he should come out of it better. It's not the same guy. And until we get our arms around that, you know, we're going to continue to deal with the same, the same issues. But it's not going away. And the Internet has only gotten more ubiquitous in terms of the platforms available for adults to approach children. I mean, again, as I told you in the beginning, used to be three spots. Now I can't even keep track of them anymore.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

And the online games and everything else we have going on creates a lot of opportunities. So not only would I argue that there is more of this activity than ever before, but it's also so much more diffuse that it's more difficult to investigate and catch the guys. Because there's a thousand places they could be.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

And I can't be in all those places. The law enforcement across the country, across the world can't be in all those places.

[Julian Dory]

That's right.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, we did a. My wife and I went to a fundraiser Saturday night, the couple days before this recording down in Florida for the Child Rescue Coalition. And this organization uses technology that can track the trafficking of child CSAM in real time. And they share this technology for free with law enforcement around the world and they take a crack at it from that standpoint. And I think that's one of the most effective ways to go after these guys. Because if you cut off the source of child pornography and csam, you eliminate a lot of children being abused in an effort to create this material. But you also cut off what I think is the fuel in some cases that gets these guys so cranked up to commit these crimes. There is, without exception, when somebody gets caught offending a link to viewing child porn. I believe a lot of people smarter than me, who study this a lot deeper than I do, agree that almost without exception, there's a link between viewing child porn and offending. And if you view it long enough, you will offend. And so that's why when people say to me, well, at least they're just looking at it, they're not. I said, no, no, no. First of all, a child had to be victimized to make it right. And I don't care. You can get into this argument about AI generated stuff or whatever, it's still child porn. And ultimately this predator is going to get to a point where it's not enough and he's going to try to find a real child, and that's just the way it is.

[Julian Dory]

Yep. I, and I do think there's something to, like, we joke about it all the time, like not, not child porn, but no, no regular porn and stuff. But I think there's even something to that too, with some of these guys too, with how ubiquitous porn is around them, period.

[Chris Hansen]

And you can get it for free. When I was a young teen, if we wanted to look at what was considered to be porn in 1973 or 1974, we would have to. And it wasn't even really porn. It was a Playboy foldout. Right. I mean, it was nude. Right. It's very straightforward. We would have to sneak into the garage of a buddy's dad, find the hidden box of previous editions of Playboy, somehow sneak those out of the garage without our mom seeing it, take it to the woods someplace to look at it, and then bury it for a future date if somebody else wanted to look at it. That was how you looked at porn today. It's a few Keystrokes. And you can see, you know, some of the most aggressive.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

Pornography ever made.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, it's.

[Chris Hansen]

The world has changed.

[Julian Dory]

It wires people's brains.

[Chris Hansen]

It does wire people's brains. And, and the other thing that, you know, we talk about all the time and we figure out we, you know, need to do a documentary on is, you know, the large number of female teachers getting caught sexually.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

Involved with young male students.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, I think some of this stuff starts out on porn sites as fantasy porn and people get caught up in it. Women too.

[Julian Dory]

I could see that.

[Chris Hansen]

And we don't find women in our stings. And the experts will tell us it's because women predators, female predators don't like the anonymity involved in our stings where male predators get off on it. Female predators want to know their victim. They want to know who it is. It's a student. It's little Billy so and so over there. Well, this is safe for me to go exploit him. But it causes the same kind of damage in society. We look at it, maybe it's a little boy's fantasy. Right, Right. But it does cause damage. And if you're the parent of that 13 year old boy, you got to put that genie back in the bottle and get him back to an age appropriate set of behavior. And it's very difficult. And then what does he do because of that experience down the road? What does that make him?

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, there is a bit of a, I guess like the, the lens, we view it double standard with that.

[Chris Hansen]

Absolutely. And every time we do a story on it or we mention it or I say something on social media about it, it's like, oh, well, he just got his dream come true. That's not, that's not how it works, you know?

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Like it's, it's funny but like it's, it's not. I just. Sometimes you'll see it. I think it gets a little strange when it's like a 16 or 17 year old boy that's different. He's like 23.

[Chris Hansen]

That's a young man.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. And then you're like.

[Chris Hansen]

Right.

[Julian Dory]

You know, but she's still a predator.

[Chris Hansen]

Not ideal. And she's in a position of power, authority. It'd just be like, you know, if you're 18 years old working at a company and the 22 year old, 23 year old supervisor. Right. She's got power over you.

[Julian Dory]

That's right.

[Chris Hansen]

It'd be wrong for as a guide, it's wrong for if it's a girl. I understand the double standard and I understand the difference in psychology and the difference in, you know, men are supposed to be able to stick up for themselves, but, you know, it's still an issue.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. And there's also, you know, you talk about those three categories of types and you went in a different direction. I thought you were going to go with that. And that's, you know, that's also from like the personal experience has seen it up close, but like, even zooming out more, just my amateur way of looking at it, was always like, well, you have one obvious crowd who was abused when they were a child, and now they've become the abuser.

[Chris Hansen]

And I think that's legitimate. I think we see that too. And I kind of put that in that either the, the hardcore heavy hitter category or in the, the middle category, the more mysterious one, but it, it's, that's, that's definitely in play there.

[Julian Dory]

And it's, it's a weird thing because I have zero empathy for them as an adult and I have zero empathy for the act or anything like that. But I go back and I think about the kid, right, who had that happen to them and the kid version of them. I'm like, damn.

[Chris Hansen]

Like, I've had guys tell me that we caught a guy in Marion County, Florida. We, we did a sting this past summer. 41 guys showed up in six days, 41 just in Marion County, Florida. Now, some came from farther away. And I'm questioning the guy in the, in the sheriff's department. And at some point he breaks down and says, can I tell you something? I said, yeah, absolutely. He said, well, I was, you know, abused by this older man and woman in my subdivision growing up. They had me cut the lawn and then they had me take my shirt off when I cut the lawn, and then they had sex with me. And, you know, maybe, I mean, it could be lying to me too. We weren't able to, to confirm all this, but, you know, maybe that had something to do with this guy. In this case, he claimed it did. I don't accept that as an excuse because if you were abused as a kid, and this is oversimplifying it obviously, but I think you should know the damage that caused and you should take whatever steps you have to take to not damage another kid.

[Julian Dory]

I agree. The other category, though is the category of people who just became this or decided to become this. They weren't abused and something happens. Now, you mentioned it could be from them at some point taking the really dark rabbit hole down porn and that leading to the illegal dark web version of it. It could be, you know, other things of a non sexual nature that happen to them in their life that then they want to take power over other people because of it. I could go on and on and on and people way more qualified than me could. But like, I don't know, I, I guess the fact, I'm grateful for the fact that that can't process to me how you would get right.

[Chris Hansen]

It's good that we can't understand it. Right?

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

Because if we could understand it, it'd be awfully scary to think that way. We need to understand it. And thankfully there are people who do, you know, medical doctors, psychiatrists who go into prisons and interview these guys to get information. But it's a dark area of medicine to be in. And I think that's one of the issues. I mean if you go to medical school and you spend 10, 12 years specializing, are you going to do plastic surgery on Park Avenue across the river here? Are you going to go into federal prisons and interview Pedos? The world moves fast. Your workday even faster. Pitching products, drafting reports, analyzing data. Microsoft 365 Copilot is your AI assistant for work built into Word, Excel, PowerPoint and other Microsoft 365 apps you use, helping you quickly write, analyze, create and summarize so you can cut through clutter and clear a path to your best work. Learn [e-mail] M365 copilot Jackson Hewitt has a great tax prep deal. $149 or less. Missing out is like ignoring the check engine light in your car. You regret it. Seriously. The price is only 140 or less, no matter how complicated. So don't wait like when you get a password expires today alert or you're shopping online and there's only one item left. It's like your taxes are in the cart. Just complete the purchase. Hurry. This deal for 149 or less is like your phone at 1%. It's about to power down. Limited time offer for new clients on federal returns. Participating locations only. Terms of jacksonheat.com 149 right. I mean it's, it's. You have to have a special drive to do that. And it's dark, man.

[Julian Dory]

It's very dark.

[Chris Hansen]

I mean, you know, I am thankful that I have never seen an image of csam and I never want to see it. But somebody's got to look at it. Somebody's got to prepare the prosecutor. Somebody's Got to say, this is what it is, and file the charges. And those people, man, that's a dark job and it takes a toll on them. I've seen it.

[Julian Dory]

Even some of the redacted images that we're all forced to see when we open up Twitter now with these Epstein files, where it's. It's clear. Yeah, we're looking at it like sends. It puts the worst type of goosebumps on you because you're like, these are 50, 60, 70 year old people and they're all rich, by the way. That makes it like something even about that. It makes it worse.

[Chris Hansen]

Why, why do you have to pick on kids? You could have sex with virtually anybody, you know, Right. You wanted, or a lot of different people. But picking on kids and living in this world where Epstein had so much power and influence, I mean, it's crazy, you know, what went on there and how he was able to manipulate people and money into, from a very young age, lie, cheat, and steal his way to being nearly a billionaire. I mean, New York Times did an article several weeks ago and they interviewed for the Sunday magazine and they interviewed his boss at Bear Stearns who said, I regret I didn't kill his career when I had the chance to. Because they found that he had lied on his resume. And he was able to convince him that, hey, look, if, if I didn't lie, I mean, those are schools I couldn't get into. I learned on the streets. I have a hard knocks education and I'm obviously performing. I apologize for lying on my resume, but let me go to work. And they let him and he continued. And ultimately he got fired from there and ended up someplace else and manipulated, you know, Les Wexner into giving him control of a lot of money and a lot of other people too. And even after he served time in the 2008 case, that sentence, which was so crazy to me looking back, that this was a case that could have gone federal, right, where he should have done serious prison time, that they were able to have lawyers manipulate this and to talk the government into a deal where he did 12 or 13 months, basically living nights and weekends in a county jail, able to go to his office from 9 to 5 and do whatever he wanted.

[Julian Dory]

How about what he pled to, too?

[Chris Hansen]

Right? Having an underage prostitute but not knowing it, essentially. Right.

[Julian Dory]

And it was 17 years and 10 months when there were 43 victims that were all 12, 13 and 14 years old.

[Chris Hansen]

And they were able to manipulate law enforcement, in some ways, public opinion, into thinking that what he was doing was creepy and bad, but it was basically hiring poor girls from the other side of the tracks to model bathing suits and give massages. And they were really of the age of consent, when in fact it wasn't. It was a worldwide trafficking organization bringing girls in from Eastern Europe and Russia and Asia and all kinds of places. And we started to look at this back around 2015, and I had some investigators who I'd known for a long time, who had been in federal law enforcement, who were working with lawyers for the survivors. And I tried to get too fancy with it. I was trying to figure out how to do a sting. How do I sting him? How do I do this in New York? And the levels of security were so, so strong that it would. There were. You couldn't infiltrate it. Right. And so I, you know, the truth is I just got busy with other stories and I just kind of set it aside. It was Julie K. Brown at the Miami Herald who kept chipping away and chipping away and got these survivors to speak publicly. And without that fine work at that newspaper by her, by, By. By Julie K. Brown and other reporters, that case in 2019 likely doesn't get prosecuted. When it does. And the U.S. attorney at the time even said so in the news conference. He said. He pointed to the fine work by the. By the Miami Herald. And so it shows me that some of these stories only come to light by focusing only on that one story. And chipping away and chipping away and chipping away. It also shows me the importance of local news, which I don't think gets the funding that it deserves in some cases. I come from local news. I started at Lansing, Michigan, went to Tampa, Detroit, and then went to NBC and done everything since then that I've done. But it is important, and I think every reporter should, ideally. I mean, we're in a different world now because people can start off in different ways, but should. Should be responsible to a local community. And they were at the Miami Herald.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. And it was incredibly brave what they pulled off.

[Chris Hansen]

And they had private eyes. Bless you. They had private eyes tailing them. These people played dirty. Epstein played dirty.

[Julian Dory]

Oh, yeah. Did you know? Were you aware of the case in 2008 when he got the deal, or did you not become aware till 2012?

[Chris Hansen]

No, I didn't start paying attention to it until 1516.

[Julian Dory]

And what got you paying attention to

[Chris Hansen]

it in the first place? I knew law enforcement agents who I'd worked with when I was in local news who had moved around the country, and we had Stayed in touch, who were at that point in private investigations and had been retained by some of the lawyers representing the victims to find information.

[Julian Dory]

Okay, so for.

[Chris Hansen]

For the civil suits that ultimately were brought and settled.

[Julian Dory]

Got it. I wasn't sure.

[Chris Hansen]

So that was my end. So I had, you know, I had some documents from the Palm beach estate, not necessarily smoking gun stuff, but I had phone logs, for instance, and I spent a Saturday and Sunday just calling people up and down this list. And some were legitimate massage therapists. One was a victim. And I heard from her attorney, like, 10 minutes later saying, look, she's not ready to talk. Now, I still talk to the attorney. She's not talked, but I'm going to hopefully talk to her one day on my podcast. So you chip away at this stuff and you ultimately will find answers. I mean, I interviewed an author in the uk, Andrew Loney, for the latest episode of one of my podcasts, have a Seat with Chris Hansen. And he had just come from lunch with a source on the case involving the former ambassador to the US and former Prince Andrew. In the three days between the time we recorded the interview and the time that it went up on have a Seat with Chris Hansen, Andrew had been arrested. The former ambassador had been arrested, and everything else that he talked about is going to happen. I mean, this could be the downfall of the British government in terms of the Prime Minister, because the prime minister spoke up on behalf of the ambassador, who lied and said he had nothing to do with it. These people gave Epstein sensitive government information, and they were rewarded by having access to women, in some cases, girls who were underage. This is. I mean, this is something that I have not seen in 45 years of being a journalist. And I wish I had been prescient enough in 2015, 2016 to see where this is going. You know, we keep up with it now. We're very aggressively reporting on it now, but it's. It's. I don't think anybody besides Epstein knew how deep this went.

[Julian Dory]

Did you have. Obviously, you didn't know how deep it went in 2015. No one did. But when you were, I don't know, spending that Saturday and Sunday going through the phone logs and finding people and then looking at at least the specs that these private. That detectives had given you. Was there something in your gut at all that was like, oh, this is different. This is another level?

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, I wish I had known more at that time because I could have really garnered resources to. To really focus more on it as opposed to some other projects, good projects, Important projects. But. But we were at that point getting ready to gear up the predator investigations again. So I was focused on that. The Hansen versus Predators. I was starting Crime Watch Daily. I anchored that show for a couple years. And we were doing stuff on id. This is before podcasts and my streaming network and all that. So I wasn't in a position to say, okay, I'm only going to do this. I've always, as a part of my job or jobs, had to do a lot of different things at the same time. And that's cool. That's what I do. But. Yes. Is there a part of me that wishes I could have focused on just that? Yeah, but I didn't realize at the time how big this was.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, I remember I'd been saying this. I remember I saw an article, I believe it was in 2017. It could have been 2015, but I think it was like 2017 might have been in Politico or something like that. That was outline a little bit about this. I remember looking at that and just kind of saying, wow, what a sick rich guy.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

And then kind of went on, why you move on?

[Chris Hansen]

And what a bad guy. Because they tried to shape this. His lawyers, his PR people tried to shape this as creepy. And yeah, he had youngish girls coming in and giving massages. Yeah, it became sexual. But they're all of age, they all consented and they tried to make it look like, okay, he was just taking advantage of poor girls on the other side of the tracks. But that's just a tiny piece of this. I mean, Ghislaine Maxwell was going to universities and recruiting women. They had trips to Eastern Europe to identify models and telling them that they could be Victoria's Secret models because of the Les Wexner connection. And, you know, along the way, I'm sure they're picking up whomever they could possibly pick up to be a part of this and to bring them to the island, to bring them to the mansion, to bring them to the Palm beach estate. You know, it was. We were talking about hundreds, if not thousands of women of girls here. Children.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. And with the latest drop of Epstein files, like I've looked at this case religiously since 2019. It's because it just, it's. It's actually even way more than just the underage sex trafficking. There's a million things going on with it. That's just the worst part of it. Or what we. What I should say we thought was the worst part of it. And now when you read these emails, there are all kinds of things on the table that I can't confirm yet or anything, but the fact that they're even on the table as a possibility.

[Chris Hansen]

Oh, I agree. I see them, too. I mean, I've got multiple sources feeding me information. You know, like you. You have people who are online sleuths who have ways of tapping into different things that I don't have necessarily the knowledge to do. And these things come my way and I evaluate them and first of all, try to see if it's true or not, and does it make sense, and then what do I do with it? You know, I've never held anything back ever, for anyone and never will, so. But you also have to view this in a way that this is a unique situation. Right. If I had my druthers as a reporter, I would want the criminal files on every high profile criminal case from Guthrie going back my entire career. But the reason those files typically aren't released is because they contain unverified information, and they contain information where there wasn't enough probable cause to get a warrant and to start a criminal prosecution.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

So in our society, we have said that if that doesn't exist, then those files, that information, that investigative material, should not be released to the public because you can damage somebody's reputation whose activities did not rise to the threshold of criminal prosecution. So this is unique. We usually don't get stuff like this unverified, raw information. And so that adds. Look, I'm not standing up for anybody in the Epstein files, but it does add a layer of responsibility for guys like you, guys like me, and across the board to make sure we're not accusing something that we can't back up. Because it would not surprise me that Epstein falsified some of this stuff, made things look worse than they were, to establish some blackmail plot. And I'm sure he squeezed a lot of people for money and other things because he had something or could threaten something. True or not. A lot of. Look, there's a lot of bad behavior, right? It's a lot of horrible things. Look at all the people who have stepped down from prominent positions. Larry Summers.

[Julian Dory]

It's something, you know. Yeah, we were good if we had a list of that, right? The latest people. Tom Pritzker stepped down from his board position.

[Chris Hansen]

And what are these guys thinking? I mean, on one level, you could sort of understand, okay, if the guy hadn't faced any criminal charges and he was just a playboy millionaire who had a private jet in an island, you could see his attraction. You could see why other Single guys who were playboys, who, like attractive women, would hang out with him. Right. You can understand that. But once he's charged as a predator, I mean, this guy should have been Persona non grata for everybody. For Bill Gates, for the Clintons, for everybody. You can't do business or you shouldn't be doing business with a registered sex offender. And you have a responsibility to do your due diligence, if you're a former president, if you're a government official, to make sure the people you're dealing with are on the up and up. I mean, look at Prince Andrew. I mean, this thing is just. And for him to have allegedly said to the arresting officers, I'm the queen's son. You can't do this to me.

[Julian Dory]

Oh, he said that?

[Chris Hansen]

That's the report. You get your ass in the car, fat boy. You ain't a prince no more.

[Julian Dory]

Oh, my God. I didn't hear that.

[Chris Hansen]

And. And you have to know that, you know, Charles is just glad to get this problem out of there. There's been no indication that he's been involved. I mean, obviously, you know, there are issues. You know, what did you know and when did you know it and should you have cut ties with him earlier? But, you know, he's in trouble on this thing. I mean, you know, selling. Using your position to get trade information and then giving it to Epstein in return for sexual favors. I mean, that's treasonous.

[Julian Dory]

It is. And you talk about, though, these people who were really close to him, the ones we know were really close to him, who stayed associated with him, where we know full well that they knew what he had been accused of and.

[Chris Hansen]

And continue the behavior. This wasn't a guy who said, hey, I made a mistake. I, you know, I. I let somebody into the circle who was too young. She gave me a massage. There was a sexual act. You know, I'm gonna go out of my way to start foundations and to. To. To do right and to. To lead by example. He went right back to it.

[Julian Dory]

That's right.

[Chris Hansen]

And arguably worse activity than ever before.

[Julian Dory]

And that's what I'm saying, because he was from an environment where he could. And it's not just the wealth he had, it's the status in society. And this.

[Chris Hansen]

It's a sense of impunity.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

It's the same sense of impunity that former Prince Andrew has, that his former wife has, that Epstein and his buddies had. They just didn't think it was. It applied to them. You know, I interviewed Julia Bryant, who's An Epstein survivor who was in South Africa, attractive young woman of legal age, but was coerced into coming back to the ranch, woke up in a surgical suite and still doesn't know exactly what happened.

[Julian Dory]

In a surgical suite.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah. At the New Mexico ranch that he had all kinds of stuff that was allegedly going on there. But she met Epstein when he was with Clinton and other dignitaries in O2. In. No, after O2 again, when they were in South Africa again.

[Julian Dory]

They did that again.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, whatever. Whatever the date was of that South African trip, whether it was O2 or right around in that area, it was. I guess it would be before 08 in the charges. But, I mean, here's a woman who was eager to get into modeling, met somebody who was with the President, the former President of the United States. I mean, how much more safe can you get? Secret Service agents there at dinner? Kevin Spacey's there, a Hollywood movie star. You know, of course she thinks that it's going to be okay. She certainly didn't bargain for what happened to her in New Mexico.

[Julian Dory]

And she doesn't have any recollection.

[Chris Hansen]

She has theories. I mean, we did this interview for have a Seat with Chris Hansen, and it's, you know, and. And I knew her story. I had been prepped for the interview, but, you know, things kept coming out of it where I was learning things on the fly from her. I mean, it was. It's. It's. It's amazing. And this guy was, you know, not prosecuted or investigated by local authorities there. I mean, he. He threw money around like it was nobody's business.

[Julian Dory]

It's also so strange, Chris, that to this, like, they're only now apparent, and it's very hazy what's going on. They're only now apparently going to look at exhuming some of the ground around Zorro Ranch or actually going in there.

[Chris Hansen]

It's a whole different. This took place. So what else is going on there? You know, we. We did a big investigation for discovery plus on Peter Nygaard hard, you know, and he was a billionaire. Freakazoid.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

And part of his deal, he's in prison up in jail up in Canada waiting, you know, charges all over the. All over the globe. But his deal was that he would allegedly impregnate young women in the Bahamas where he had a huge home, and then have them get abortions and harvest their stem cells of the fetuses to inject in himself as the fountain of youth. And this, we get into this in that documentary and I mean, was Epstein involved in that Sort of activity. I don't know. That's where.

[Julian Dory]

And again, we just have to look at what we have and know what we don't yet. Yeah, but it's a question.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

When you look at the context.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah. And when you look at what other billionaire guys have done, you know, were they in contact somehow? I mean, obviously, you know, there are some people who are in the concentric circles of associates, you know, billionaire sex predators, I mean, similar acts.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

You have to ask those questions deep.

[Julian Dory]

Can we pull up some of those emails where they use the code word jerky? Because Joe and I have looked through this a bunch.

[Chris Hansen]

I'm going to hit the men's room. Hold that thought.

[Julian Dory]

Okay.

[Chris Hansen]

We'll be right back. I'm going to get. All right, we're back.

[Julian Dory]

So we have some of these emails up right here. And again, like, you have to think of these things, as you put it, Chris, as if you're in like a court of law and what you can prove and what you can't.

[Chris Hansen]

Right.

[Julian Dory]

And right now, if you just looked at these alone, they don't definitively prove anything. But can we pull up that email you had up, Thief? Yeah, the one that had. You had the perfect one up about the recipe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, go to the top one right there. So this one is called jerky recipe. In the subject, it's from December 21, 2012. It says. Hi, Steve Hanson, no relation on Jeffrey's island is requesting the latest beef jerky recipe as j. He has asked her to try and make some. He says the last batch that you made tasted different and I think he. I think he likes it as he would like to attempt it. Would it be possible to forward us the recipe? Thank you, Steve. This is the response, but I've now been told it is the old way Francis was doing it he likes best and not the latest batch. So on LSJ is. Go on. Little Saint James is going to try and do it that way. I am in Europe, but with him on the island, if you need to call to liaise about getting anything down. So obviously the number one point is they're not talking about real jerky here. We know that it's code for something.

[Chris Hansen]

Right.

[Julian Dory]

And when you go through some of the other emails, emails that talk about how to refrigerate it, you know, where to store it, how many pounds it is and things like that, your brain goes to some of that Peter Nygaard type.

[Chris Hansen]

Absolutely. Now I. I've seen these and I have access to the, you know, the Index emails as well. It's. It's. And I try to go through them when time allows, but, yeah, I would guess if our betting man, that they're not talking about actual beef jerky, not known to be an island treat. I mean, people eat a lot of fish down in the islands and I'm sure other stuff too, but, I mean, to me, this is code for something more nefarious.

[Julian Dory]

Now, the. The survivor you spoke to, what was her name again?

[Chris Hansen]

Juliet Bryant.

[Julian Dory]

Julia Bryant. When she woke up on the medical table at Zorro Ranch, which is straight out of a horror movie, you said that she doesn't know what happened, but she has some theories about what could have. What does she think?

[Chris Hansen]

I. She doesn't know. I mean, she doesn't have scars, she doesn't have, you know, injuries that I'm aware of. But it was just, you know, so startling to her to wake up in what appeared to be a surgical suite of some sort with people in scrubs. And, you know, this freaked her out. I don't think she's completely processed this except that she has the memory of this happening. And finally at some point got out of the whole deal and, you know, was talking about this and not getting a lot of reception from officials and, you know, got a hold of a lawyer and got involved in the civil suit against, against Epstein and was able to, like so many other survivors, get a settlement. Justly that has helped her in her life, but she's still, she's still very much impacted by this. All these girls. I mean, imagine having to come to grips with this. First of all, you try it in some of these cases, they try to bury it, try to just deal with it, and then they dec, no, this is wrong, and I'm not alone. And they gather together and some very dedicated lawyers got involved here to go after this case. And, you know, thankfully they did get settlements. But that doesn't make you all better. That doesn't make you whole, you know, to be treated like some sort of chattel. You know, I mean, some. Some, you know, a quantity, you know, just a product that's.

[Julian Dory]

I, I don't even think he. He viewed them like that. I think it was even lower than that. I think this is a level depravity that I have no concept of. Normal people luckily don't have any concept of. But I, I too, did just speak with a survivor recently, and that podcast will be coming out soon. There's a couple of them as we were here for a while, but you had mentioned it, maybe 10 minutes ago, talking about some of the tactics he would use. And. And the thing that blew me away when I was speaking to this Epstein survivor about his manipulation was how diabolical he was in studying it. So when he would. He would traffic this woman who was barely a woman, she was 20, 21, to other men in Hollywood or other places mobily. Meaning he wouldn't be going with her or anything like that.

[Chris Hansen]

Right.

[Julian Dory]

He would just traffic.

[Chris Hansen]

No.

[Julian Dory]

Her to them with the idea that, you know, she was going to get raped. And so she said that every time that she went and did one of these things, he would call her afterwards and he would say, like, so did you hook up with him? Which, you know, means rape, by the way. Obviously.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

And, you know, most of the time the answer was no. And regardless of whether the answer was no or yes, he would want to know the details to a T. Every time. It was like in a.

[Chris Hansen]

It's like a serial killer.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, it sounds the lamb stuff.

[Julian Dory]

Yes, it was. And. And in a sick parallel to the real world, I was like, oh, my God. This is like when Bill Belichick and Tom Brady watch Tape of Defenses.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, but he's watching and he wants to know for his own, you know, purian interest, you know, he gets off on this, obviously, but also to realize what kind of power, what kind of manipulation does he now possess over a. A wealthy, powerful guy that he can use to his advantage. What's the blackmail?

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

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[Chris Hansen]

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[Julian Dory]

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[Chris Hansen]

Like that is huge.

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[Julian Dory]

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[Chris Hansen]

Watch the Hulu original series, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bonus subscribers, terms apply. I hadn't even Thought he's keeping notes. Yeah, he wants to be able to say, well, you know, how was your night with whatever the code name is? And he's got the response. And these guys were talking about this in the emails. Yeah, I mean, up until 17, 18. Right. Up until 19 when he got popped. You know, the, the Peter Adia. The doctor Peter. Yeah, yeah. Atia, you know. Did he take part in it? No, apparently not. But he was talking about it, and he was chummy, chummy with a guy who is, who is running one of the biggest human trafficking operations in the history of the world.

[Julian Dory]

It's wild. Yeah, I, I, because again, you got to go double check everything on, like, justice.gov when you see it on the Internet, because people are just floating.

[Chris Hansen]

Oh, no, there's all kinds of stuff.

[Julian Dory]

I was certain when I saw those screenshots the first time, I got, well, those must be fake ones. And then I go and look, I'm like, wow, he really said this? Yeah, to this guy.

[Chris Hansen]

And, and, and, you know, I'm not defending him, but, I mean, obviously I would like to think that he didn't know the extent of this. I said, he just talking to a rich guy who was, you know, somebody he thought was kind of funny and interesting and, and maybe he, you know, as a, as a medical guy and an influencer, maybe, you know, he was targeted by Epstein, too. Right.

[Julian Dory]

Now, you know, as you said, sometimes on your stings, you do run into doctors and lawyers. And I say that because these are people of means, if you will. A lot of times you don't. A lot of times it's someone who's not of me beings. They're all pedophiles. It's the same, but there is a different scope. It's the same thing, but there's a different scope through which to look at it. To me, when you're talking about people who are literal masters of the universe and billionaires and heads of state or heads of bureaucracy or heads of academia or in industry, whatever it may be. You know, do you have a ton of experience ever looking at things like that, or is that even kind of new to you?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I think it's new to me in terms of the, the scope of the wealth and power involved in the Epstein case. I mean, as I mentioned, we did a big investigation on Peter Nygaard. There's a lot of money involved there, a lot of corruption, a lot of, you know, delivering cash and a frozen fish to a government official. I mean, you know, a lot of people looking the other way. But in terms of the predator investigations that we do, the takedown investigations on True Blue, you know, to me it's interesting when it's somebody of wealth or power or character or influence, because you would think that that person should know better. It's no more of a crime than when alignment for the power company does it. While you staying up in a hotel in rural Louisiana. I mean, it's the same damage caused to a child. So I try to approach each of them the same way. I mean, obviously you've got a doctor who walks in after seeing 18 patients and while he was seeing 18 patients, took time to be texting somebody who was a 15 year old girl posing as a 15 year old girl and send a picture of his penis and then stop in his Range Rover to buy Oreos and red wine because the girl had braces and he had a fantasy about the Oreos being in the braces. I mean, obviously that adds layers of context to the story. And it's a doctor who's taken the Hippocratic oath to cause no harm and he's there to sexually abuse a 15 year old girl. And yeah, I think that makes for a more interesting story. Is it any more dangerous than the lineman? No, same, same danger. And they both make the movie. Nobody gets out of this. I don't, you know, prioritize any of these cases because of what they do for a living. You know, my producer and my executive producer sit down and we, you know, they, we put these, we edit them and put them out as they come. Now we may change them around for whatever production or programming reason, but everybody makes the movie.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, and I think on that level you're right.

[Chris Hansen]

I mean, everybody makes the movie. Nobody gets out. Right now we may have guys who don't talk and we may group them together, you know, three in an episode because the interviews are shorter for whatever reason. But nobody, you know, nobody gets out of this who gets caught.

[Julian Dory]

Right. And again, like you're talking about that range and people from way different backgrounds or means and things like that. And I agree. There's a level though that, that you don't get a chance to get it

[Chris Hansen]

makes headlines when it's a doctor. I mean, look at the New York Post today, the day that we record this. And there are two or three stories about prominent men getting caught getting child porn csam. One is a doctor in Michigan, another is a physician someplace else. But all prominent people who are shockingly engaging in the purchase and trafficking of child porn in one day, in one day.

[Julian Dory]

How what percentage do you think actually get caught?

[Chris Hansen]

That's an excellent question. And there's a theory that some of these guys want to get caught. And I've heard that in interviews over the years. You know, I'm relieved. Now I can get help. Now I can stop. In terms of percentage, it'd be a wild guess, but based upon the activity on the Internet, I'd say maybe 20, 30%.

[Julian Dory]

That's actually higher than I thought you were going to say.

[Chris Hansen]

I mean, again, I'm just giving you an edge. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's overly optimistic because I want to think that we catch more than we do. But in terms of guys seeking children for sex and actually, you know, doing something to physically do that, maybe 20, 30. But again, it's. It's a guess at best.

[Julian Dory]

Do you think it for. Certainly not for everyone, but do you think for some people this is something that's curable, or do you view it as incurable? Across the board, they have this feeling. That's what it is.

[Chris Hansen]

I. I think the vast majority of cases are incurable. But I have seen, and we talk about this on the Predators I've Caught podcast guys who, especially the younger guys who, you know, did their punishment, whether it's a, you know, a month in the county jail or whatever it was they registered as a sex offender, they went to their treatment, and now they're productive members of society. It happens.

[Julian Dory]

How do we know that?

[Chris Hansen]

We know that because they're closely monitored. We know that because they have to report to a probation officer. We know that because they're registered. We know that because we keep track of their activities. So is it 100%? No, absolutely not. But these guys are going to work every day. They're doing a job. They're not offending. They've gone to therapy. They're young enough where they can rewire their brains a little bit. And people would argue with me that none of these guys can be fixed, But I think some of these guys act on impulses that, you know, with some work and therapy and some monitoring, they can decide they're not going to do it again. And discipline. And discipline if they have it.

[Julian Dory]

See, that would. That's an interesting word to use there, because if you say discipline, maybe I'm taking it too literally, but that would mean that they have all those urges, but they're disciplined to just not act on them or something, which is.

[Chris Hansen]

And that's exactly what I'm getting at. And I get email. We have an email associated with the podcast. [e-mail] and I've gotten at least a dozen over the five years we've done that podcast. Emails from men who say, look, I don't want to use my name or I don't want to be identified, But I am telling you that I've had these urges for as long as I can remember. I go to therapy. I'm in a normal adult relationship, and I don't offend. And I understand I have these urges, and I can't tell you exactly why, but I do. I'm attracted to younger girls, and I don't offend. And you need to know that there are people out there who are like me. Now, have I verified everything in that email as being true? No, but it rings true to me that there are people out there who are that way.

[Julian Dory]

Maybe there's some of those people who are telling the truth. Maybe some of the other people fall in the category if they want to get caught, and this is how they think they can do it to get their attention by emailing Chris Hansen.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, or they're jerking me around, which is not out of the possibility either. You don't know. But it's interesting that somebody would take the time to give me details about their life. And if I wanted to find them, I could find them.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, and if I thought they were a danger to society, I would turn it over to law enforcement. I would. I would do everything I could to prevent them from harming a child. I don't care.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, but if it's somebody being honest who, at least there's no information that he's harmed a child, and, you know, I'd like to hear about it.

[Julian Dory]

Do you ask them about. Ever, converse with them about where these urges come from?

[Chris Hansen]

I have not, and I should.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, I would.

[Chris Hansen]

I mean, I'm working on an episode that involves this, but as you can imagine, you know, takes a bit of a leap of faith on my part to say, okay, is this guy jerking me around? Right. How am I sure he's not offended? They need to take a leap of faith and say, all right, I'm going to go identify myself because I'm not going to take just a fake name. I need to know. I need to run a background check on these guys. And so it's kind of gets stalled out in that mediation part of it. And then as you're working on that, suddenly there's five other interviews you have to do, so. So it's important I should do it, and I will.

[Julian Dory]

Does it Feel like sometimes with all of the awareness we have on just how widespread a problem like this is, does it feel like you're swimming against the current, like it just gets worse, despite all the great work you've clearly done to help?

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, I try not to get overwhelmed by it. You know, I've at a stage in life where I've been doing this long enough that I know a couple things to be true. One, you just got to do your best every day. Two, I believe in the work. It's important. I wanted to be a television journalist virtually every day since the age of 15, and I pursued it, and I believe it's important. Obviously, at some point in life, you start to get addicted yourself to, you know, your ego, gets addicted to the attention and being relevant in a space. And I've been very fortunate to remain relevant for a very long time across three generations of viewers, followers, whatever you want to call people, and to figure out a way to do stories in a manner that is captivating to people. Right. And so you take the Predator stories and you have that currency or that value to your viewers, your people, and you try to translate that into other topics as well. But I'm blessed to have been in the game so long and see no end to it. Not just catching predators, but all kinds of other stories and other material and other things that I do. But it's a unique thing because I have this discussion with my sons who are in the business, one behind the camera, one in front of the camera. And behind the camera does some work with me, but also does commercials for Microsoft and Pfizer and movies. And there's got a lot of different things going on. The son who's in front of the camera is in more of a traditional route, which is what I was in when I went to NBC. I didn't go there to do Predator investigations. We did stories for news magazines. And it could be the Oklahoma City bombing. It could be 9, 11. It could be a lot of breaking news or political news or the impeachment of Bill Clinton, all that stuff.

[Julian Dory]

You did that for a lot of years.

[Chris Hansen]

For a lot of years, and then pitched to the Predator series. And I think at that point, you either do it once and keep going or you pursue that sort of reporting. And obviously, I took a different road. That road. Does it land you at 60 minutes as a correspondent? Right. It lands you in your own world, your own network, And I'm comfortable with that. I mean, I don't know of a better set of circumstances that I could have than the one I currently possess. I mean, who at 66 years old has their own streaming network which produces takedown that comes out every single Thursday. Two podcasts with unique content every single Monday and Wednesday, and then documentaries, a dozen in the works, including the Roblox documentary that is out now.

[Julian Dory]

Well, you're also like a one of one brand. Like, when people think about this kind of thing and like catching predators, it's like the next search on Google is Chris Hansen.

[Chris Hansen]

Right. But I don't get to do a cooking show in Italy. But I knew that going into it.

[Julian Dory]

I think you're doing more important work.

[Chris Hansen]

I agree, I agree. But you also, there's a part of you as you go through the business where you think, well, I'll do a lot of different things. And we did for many years at Dateline do a lot of things. That show has morphed into a murder mystery procedural. Nothing wrong with it. Great show. Does very well. My friends still work at that show doing those murder mysteries. Is that what I personally want to do? No. I found a niche and a purpose that is tailor made for me. And I'm very comfortable doing it the way I do it. Those guys may not be comfortable doing it. I mean, there's no jealousy or animosity or I'm better than you or you're better than me, or I wish you would. It's just the way it happened. We're all very good friends. We talk all the time. I see him at Crimecon. Right.

[Julian Dory]

You know, I think I'll actually disagree with you on one thing, though. Obviously, like, you're perfectly comfortable right where you are and doing your thing. But I do think if you woke up tomorrow, maybe I wouldn't want to see you do a cooking show personally. But like, you know, if you woke up tomorrow and said, I think I'm gonna.

[Chris Hansen]

I think.

[Julian Dory]

Not that anyone would want to do this these days, but I think I'm gonna go cover the politics in dc. People be like, yo, Chris Hansen's covering what's going on.

[Chris Hansen]

I mean, it's refreshing to hear, you know, I got a lot of people who depend on me to do the kind of work I do. Right. And so that plays into it as well.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

But I think as this evolves, for instance, as True Blue, our streaming network grows, I think we're going to have, you know, the ability to do a lot of different things. And I think as we become bigger, I mean, we have documentaries, projects in the works on different topics. And I think there's going to be the ability to. To get involved in a lot of things. Look, I'm at a great stage in life. You know, my kids are grown. Right. My wife is very supportive of this work.

[Julian Dory]

You're 66 still?

[Chris Hansen]

66 years old. Doing well, I think. So hang in there for a fellow of a certain age. But, you know, you adapt as you go along to preserve yourself, too. Too. Yeah. You know, now, you said you wanted

[Julian Dory]

to do this since you were 15.

[Chris Hansen]

Yes.

[Julian Dory]

I mean, look, you got the look, you got the voice. You always had that. But, like, what was it that. What was the push?

[Chris Hansen]

I grew up about a mile away from where Jimmy Hoffa was kidnapped. Whoa. In suburban Detroit. And when it happened, the local police in Bloomfield Township and the FBI and national correspondents and local reporters. And Detroit was a very sophisticated media market. It has been for many years. But when I was there and I worked in Detroit for 10 years, I mean, the anchormen were larger than life. The reporters were local celebrities and very good journalists, and they understood television. And Detroit at one time was the seventh largest market in the nation. It was New York, Louisiana. Chicago, Boston, Philly, and then Detroit, you know, and the city of lost population. So it's. It's changed now. It's in the top 20 still, I believe. But, you know, I became fascinated with the story, obsessed with it. Used to ride my bike up there and, you know, the crime scene was all happening. And so I was bit by the bug then. And, you know, after that. The Oakland county child killing case, which was a huge case when I was

[Julian Dory]

in high school, was the Oakland county child.

[Chris Hansen]

Oakland county child child killer. Four children disappeared in the span of like 18 months. Found dead. They were all related to one or two potential killers. I'd done stories on it when I was in Detroit, keep track of it. Now was just on a radio show a few weeks ago talking about it in Detroit. It's the 50th year anniversary. Knew the family of one of the kids who was taken.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, there it is.

[Chris Hansen]

Timmy King. And some theories. I mean, I chased around as a local reporter in Detroit. We went to Wyoming to chase a lead. We went. You know, we did a lot of different things on this story, and technically, I mean, there are people who think they know who did it, both of whom are dead.

[Julian Dory]

Oh, he never. They never got caught, though.

[Chris Hansen]

No. It's been one of those enduring mysteries. Now. People have their theories. So, you know, with all that having gone on, as I was starting to watch local news a lot and read all the newspapers and the main anchorman at the ABC station, Bill Bonds, who is a great character, great journalist, was best friends with my best friend's father. And so I was around him a lot and, you know, off to college and signed up for the radio station doing news. And I was a reporter.

[Julian Dory]

You know, you mentioned it earlier, though, talking about this with serial killers, you drew the parallel in some of the mentality between them and the predators that you deal with. But I think sometimes we forget about how the whole serial killer phenomenon rose up, you know, in the 60s, 70s and 80s and still unfortunately continues today. But, like, when you look at the guys like the BTKs or this guy, we never caught the Oakland county child killer. A similar question, when I asked you about child predators earlier, like, what. What bears someone to put that in their soul and become that thing, you

[Chris Hansen]

know, Silence of the Lambs. I mean, how do you start in this? John Wayne Gacy, the notorious smiley face killer in Oregon. I interviewed him face to face. This is a big dude, too. We did a piece for Dateline years ago, and, you know, you're sitting as close as you and I are sitting with this guy with leg irons and handcuffs on. And his daughter did a documentary recently. But what drives him? A combination of psychiatric reasons and, you know, they'll tell you a lot of different stories. My mom hated me. My mom was a prostitute. You know, on. Sometimes these guys start as peeping Toms, become rapists, and then they want to kill. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's. I don't necessarily think there's a single point failure in any of this stuff. Right. It's a combination of things. And like, I mean, there are people far more expert than I when it comes to child killers and serial killers, of course, but, you know, what motivates them to do this? Are they killing themselves when they were at a young age when something happened, or to prevent the horrible things that happen to him later in life? I, you know, I don't know. There's a lot of ways to look at it, and smarter guys than me study it, but it's, it's shocking to me. And today you don't see him get. You don't see as many serial killers today because they don't get away with it for as long as they did then. The advancements in DNA and surveillance. Yeah, surveillance. I mean, you know, coming over here from midtown Manhattan today, I was probably captured on video a dozen times, if not more. You know, you can't get. It's hard to get away with a crime. And that's why the Nancy Guthrie case I think is so. Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

What is going on?

[Chris Hansen]

Mystifying. I don't know, I. My heart just breaks for that family. I mean, I think of my mom in that situation, you know, an 84 year old woman and, you know, so overwhelmed and mystified. Why is somebody doing this to me? And you know, to me it doesn't seem like a robbery gone bad because why would you take a woman with you, right? And if, if, God forbid, she died during the course of a robbery, why take some? Why create a bigger criminal problem for you? If it's a kidnapping, why hasn't there been more of an effort to get money from it? You know, I don't think whoever pulled it off was very bright or wasn't an astute criminal who wears the gun in front of them. Like the way he was wearing it. The problem is dumb criminals can be dangerous and deadly criminals are criminals. So was it a kidnapping? Where unfortunately, something happened to Nancy Guthrie and they no longer have evidence. Proof of life maybe. I don't know the answer to it. I don't have a strong gut feeling in this case like I do in so many others. Was she targeted because of what her daughter did for a living? I don't think she was in a position where she created a lot of anger towards her, but maybe there was some thought that she had money and they could. It was an easy mark. But you think of this poor woman, lived in the house for 50 years, widowed early, took in, you know, had her mother living with her brother who, you know, had some challenges and they had a happy life. And she went to work every day, you know, raised kids, one of whom became, you know, Savannah Guthrie, who I knew at NBC. But I don't think anybody targeted her because anything her daughter did, I mean, if somebody comes after me, I understand why, right? I've messed with a lot of people, but. And I'm not taunting anybody to do that, I don't need that to happen. But you know, I just, I think it's going to be a confluence of dunces that did something horrible and it led to something very bad happening to an 84 year old woman. And look, I talk to law enforcement about it every day. I'm not out there covering it. But you know, I've had incidents where I've had to deal with Walmart security in the past and they are very good at what they do, they're very committed and I can tell you that they're Working around the clock, running all kinds of AI programs to figure out, you know, where could the back, the backpack have been bought? When did anybody buy a backpack and a face mask and a jacket at the same time did you know they're clicking away at this stuff non stop and every time something like this happens, they enhance their algorithm to be able to say, okay, we're looking for somebody who is between 59 and 511 who might have been at the store, you know, but they're, you know, tons of Walmart stores. Imagine the footprint of Walmart and Sam's Club. There's good and bad. The search field is enormous, but so is the data field. Right. So I have a feeling that they're going to figure this out. And the other thing is, you know, the reality is not all sheriff's departments are created equal. And I'm not casting any shade on the sheriff's office down there, but to me, and again, this is just me. If I'm running a media for a law enforcement agency, I'm not going to be doing this scattershot interview here and there. I mean every day or every other day there should be a briefing, right. Sometimes the sheriff should be there and sometimes it should be the press person. And they read off a list of what's the latest done. But it comes off so herky jerky. And again I was so solve the case. So why should I be, you know, critical of the guys who are trying to solve it? I know they're working hard on it, but I don't, I think they'll solve it. Sadly, it's gotten into a long haul. But just whenever you think that, I mean, remember that, you know those four kids who were killed, the college kids killed in Idaho. Yes. You know, everybody was starting to. These cops don't know what they're doing. A small town, campus cops. Turns out all along they were on the, the on the hunt and they got this guy Coburger. So hopefully there's stuff going on that we don't know about. Hopefully it, it comes to fruition and, and whoever did this will get caught. And as Savannah Guthrie has said in her videos, you, you just have to believe there's nothing bad that happens by not believing in the most optimistic outcome. Right. But with each passing day, it becomes more challenging obviously to be optimistic.

[Julian Dory]

So yeah, I can't imagine.

[Chris Hansen]

I hope they, whoever did it, I hope they find them and they rot in hell. But it just, none of it makes a lot of sense to me.

[Julian Dory]

I can't figure out if it's just bizarre because the crime's bizarre and, you know, they caught themselves one foot ahead of law enforcement at the beginning or because it's going to be some fluke.

[Chris Hansen]

It's going to be some fluke that. That, you know, led them to commit this crime. And it's. It's been a fluke that they've been able to get away with it. Right. A camera missed him. A camera was out. I mean, look at the fact that they were able to reconstruct that video is nothing short of amazing. I can't remember the camera at the door that he tried to cover up and then took. And they were able to go back and work with Microsoft to get that, that video, reconstructed it, the video of him at the front door. That wasn't an automatic grab. They had to work. The FBI had to go to Microsoft and get that, to reconstitute what was in the cloud and lead it back to that particular camera that they don't have. So they didn't find the camera, is my understanding. They were able to find information that was in the cloud from that camera because she hadn't subscribed to the service that would save it. So, I mean, just that. And you know, then you gotta hope that, like in so many cases, somebody sees some tick or some characteristic of the guy on the video that they say, oh, that's Frankie. You know, that's. I know exactly who that is. That's what solves these cases. Yeah, somebody's gotta drop a dime.

[Julian Dory]

Now you were saying it's amazing the tools that they have now to be able to solve, to get away with a crime.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, it's hard to get away with the crime anymore. I mean, people try it, but. And it happens, but, you know, somebody's going to know about it. It's just whether or not does that person come forward or do they find that evidence?

[Julian Dory]

What about for what you do, though? Because, like, this started off like you said in the beginning. It was three different types of chat rooms and whatever back then. Now there's a million places to do it. Where have you seen things, whether it be AI or other types of technology, assist law enforcement, or even with you when you're working with law enforcement on these types of cases.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, you know, we can track phone numbers. Right. Not every number can be tracked. There are ways to get, you know, fake numbers or, you know, voip numbers. But when we have a real number, they can run it through a database. And we know what car is arriving, we know who it is, where they Got a criminal history where they got a concealed weapons permit. That's 50% of the time we know who's coming, coming. Now can they figure out a way around that? Yeah, and then it's a bit of a mystery. Then I've got my hands full because I got to figure it out while I'm sitting across from or standing across from. But you know, we always do. By the end of the story, we know exactly who, who this person is challenging. Mostly because there are so many platforms upon which adults can approach children. You know, it's, it's, it's, you can't be in every one of these things. You know, there's dating sites, there's, you know, some of these crimes are happening on generally accessible social media platforms like, you know, Facebook and you know, Instagram, you know, the meta. I mean we've had horrible cases where the just guys cruise along finding girls to chat with and whoever hits back, you know, they look for profiles where the child is potentially vulnerable and they prey on that. And in the case of Roblox, was just gonna ask. Yeah, you know, we've been investigating predators exploiting kids on Roblox for the last seven months or so.

[Julian Dory]

For people out there who don't understand Roblox or what it is, would you mind just explaining.

[Chris Hansen]

Roblox is a multi tiered gaming platform. Platform. So there are games on Roblox already that Roblox has designed, that they offer and creators can make games and put them on Roblox. And as a user you can also create a game and get permission and put it up there too. So you can. It's a video game within a video game. Right. And so there are all these different games that kids can play and it looks pretty innocent. Some of these characters look like Lego characters from a Lego movie. It is marketed towards kids as young as five. And if played properly with adult supervision, it creates amazing communities with very healthy experiences and allows people to express their creativity. Wildly successful, multi billion dollar publicly traded company in San Mateo, California, led by the, you know, the co creators of it. But we have come across cases dating back 15 years where children were approached by adults and groomed and preyed upon.

[Julian Dory]

How did, how does that happen?

[Chris Hansen]

It happens in a couple different ways. Now I need to say at the onset that recently Roblox has enacted some safety features including facial recognition and age verification that should prevent some of this from happening. But as you know, children can find workarounds, adults can find workarounds, and there are a lot of games that are Kind of shady on there, you know. And then there's the connection between Roblox and Discord.

[Julian Dory]

Roblox and Discord.

[Chris Hansen]

Roblox has a server on Discord. A lot of players go back and forth. There are Roblox communities on Discord. So there's this relationship there. And we started getting a lot of reports about adults posing as children on Roblox. Adults inducing children to create child porn, to abuse others. There's the 7, 6, 4 element of it where 764, the nihilistic group you're familiar with goes on Roblox to create relationships and to abuse their. They are, they're everywhere.

[Julian Dory]

Oh my. Yeah, but that group.

[Chris Hansen]

Holy. And I don't know, I, I know people say, I say what drives them. Well, they're nihilists, you know, they're just out to create chaos and harm people. Well what do they get from that? Well, they get to harm people. But what does it do for them to harm people? They're just that way. I mean, I interviewed a dad for a recent episode of have a Seat with Chris Hansen and he was so powerful and his daughter was on Roblox and was co opted by some of these 764 guys. And ultimately she committed suicide and you know, the grief and the guilt and the reconstruction of it. But not only did they cause her to commit suicide, they convinced her to livestream suicide attempts. He finds this out later, then they start picking on him, the dad and harassing him just for the sake of doing it. After she died, before and after. This was an ongoing thing. So we divert from Roblox itself. So kids were getting abused by predators and Roblox, we start digging into it. I find a detective in Marion County Florida, Henrik Austin, who is one of the national experts on this. And in one short period of time, just in Marion County Florida, they arrested a young man who had abused on Roblox at least a dozen kids and probably more. Then we find the victim, a 10 year old girl of a Roblox predator who is in the uk. So if this is going on in Marion County Florida, what's going on in the rest of the world? And then we learn about a young man named Schlepp who I'm sure you're familiar with. He was a, yeah, YouTuber. He was a Roblox prodigy. At 10, 11 years old. He was then abused by somebody on Roblox and he was suicidal, ended up in the hospital, came back and has made it his mission to expose predators on Roblox.

[Julian Dory]

Just Just for, and you know, I'm, I'm not saying like going to graphic details and stuff like that, but when you say someone like Schlepp got abused on Roblox, what are, what are you referring to?

[Chris Hansen]

I'm referring to somebody who was a well known creator who decided to abuse their power dynamic and try to convince Schlep to do certain things that he apparently did not do. But, but, but when he wouldn't do things and when I talk about things in general on, on, on Roblox, there are predators who try to get children to take pictures of themselves or do things for their gratification. Right. So, and this is a common theme. So Schlepp as a young man, young boy, becomes suicidal, goes to the hospital, great parents to get him through it, and he decides he's going to expose some of these people in Roblox. You'd think that Roblox would embrace that. And they've been back and forth on having him a part of their team and not having him a part of the team right now. They don't want him a part of the team. And they claim that he's going after people more associated with Discord than Roblox. Schlepp would argue that, look, it matters not. The people on Discord have presence, have a presence on Roblox. And it's often one and the same. Right. If they got a server over there, people are recruiting people over there, it's the same thing. And then we find out that Schlepp is represented by a law firm who at the beginning of our investigation this summer had 500 cases of people exploring potential legal action against Roblox because of being preyed upon. Since that time, they now have 3,000 cases. And then we start to find out that attorneys general across the country are investigating and swinging Roblox as well. So you've got the Attorney General of Louisiana who we interviewed, you got the attorney General of the state of Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Texas. You know, all these attorneys general are going after Roblox for not keeping children safe on their platform. Now Roblox held two or three different background briefings with me for the story, including one with their Chief security Officer, Matt Kaufman. Gave me a lot of information, very useful. We use it in the story. But they have thus far declined to do an odd case camera interview. And I push pretty hard because I know that it's more fair to Roblox if there's a face attached to this. Right. You're not just putting up a statement On a graphic, on a screen. You can talk to somebody. You can have a conversation with somebody, just like I did, for background. But they've refused. And so now the first episode, the first hour of our documentary is out on True Blue, and people can see it and make up their minds for themselves.

[Julian Dory]

Do you think they refuse because they're afraid of the Hanson? They feel like you're gonna get them dead to rights, or because they're just being too corporate and going behind the shield?

[Chris Hansen]

They're afraid. I don't know whether they're afraid because I know more than other journalists know who ask them questions. They tend to like interviews in comfortable tech settings where they can talk about new games and growth of engagement. Then in more mainstream journalism, they like to go on shows where the interviews are two to three minutes, so there's not a lot of background checks. They don't want me to ask them why, for instance, they won't allow law enforcement to conduct investigations on their platform. Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

Why do you think they're not letting them?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, because I'm sure there are privacy concerns. They don't want to get the image that, you know, am I talking to another player? Am I talking to a cop? And to me, if you want to send a message to predators on your platform, you let law enforcement in on it and you shake them up a little bit. I mean, there are people on Roblox who are mad at me, mad at Schlep, for even looking into this. They think it's a parental responsibility and we should be able to do whatever we want, play whatever game we want on Roblox. And if a kid gets in trouble, their parents should have been keeping a closer eye on him. That's one of the. It's a minority, but there are people who. I see the snitty little comments, I don't pay much attention to them, but, you know, they'll say something about Schlepper. They'll say, I mean, look, it's very easy. Make it as safe as you can. And in terms of doing an interview, why would you not sit down and say, look, Chris, here's what we've done? Boeing did it when we investigated crashes of the 737.

[Julian Dory]

When did you do that investigation?

[Chris Hansen]

Back in the late 90s for Dateline.

[Julian Dory]

So they let you in?

[Chris Hansen]

They took me to the factory, showed me the. How they make the plane, showed me the tail, showed me the thing they were doing to make it safer.

[Julian Dory]

Just like after this, after the wa and all that.

[Chris Hansen]

No, it was. That was a different plane. This was a crash that occurred in Pittsburgh, okay? And there were other incidents involving the 737. And so we did an investigation. Boeing, to its credit, had us come in, shot the the plane being built, did all this stuff, and then sat down with an interview and said, look, this is what we're doing. We're not convinced that this actually caused the fatal crash, but we're going to make sure this is the safest airplane in the air because it is the workhorse of the American fleet. And then people can make up their own mind. If I were Roblox, I would lay out all the safety measures and answer the questions, the critical ones, truthfully, and then look at me and say, and Chris, remember this. We're not committing these crimes. Predators are right? End of story.

[Julian Dory]

So I'm trying to draw some parallels in my head. It's a similar type of situation to like Facebook letting police in to take a look at crimes that happen on their platform because bad actors come on and use an open.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, here's, here's just to be clear. Now, the folks at Roblox, like in all these other social media platforms, are mandated by Congress to voluntarily report inappropriate contact between children and adults. Sexually charged content csam all that Toogood

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[Chris Hansen]

Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. They're supposed to report incidents of this that they find to the national center of Missing and Exploited Children Children ncmec then farms these referrals out to law enforcement. The national center for Missing Exploited Children. Okay, so they get a tip on children being exploited and that goes from Facebook, whatever, to. Or in this case, Roblox to NCMEC to law enforcement. And they do that. And there are cases that have been made because Roblox reported this as they're supposed to. But why not let law enforcement go on and conduct their own investigations? Why not create a chilling environment for predators?

[Julian Dory]

So there's another parallel I'm thinking of in my head about this, and it's not a perfect one, but you remember the whole San Bernardino shooter iPhone thing where Tim Cook was like, I really want to unlock that iPhone for you, but that sets a precedent about privacy laws in the future for people who might be innocent and things like that, which really diff.

[Chris Hansen]

You're.

[Julian Dory]

You're stuck between.

[Chris Hansen]

I understand it, but if I'm Tim Cook, I'm going to say this is a mass shooting and we have to catch the guy. Right. And so we're gonna, we're gonna make a corporate decision and I'm gonna be a good corporate citizen and help law enforcement and I'm gonna do this right. So, I mean, he's the CEO. He can do it.

[Julian Dory]

He can here. I, I understood where he was coming from on setting precedent, though. So that said, this, this isn't my wheelhouse to know what the rights and, and laws are here, but is there a way that Roblox could allow law enforcement to monitor the app? And anytime they come across something that therefore is not actually something illegal or it's perfectly fine, the data from anything they collected on those people is required to be deleted and not held meaning private.

[Chris Hansen]

Do it. I don' think it needs to go that far. I think if they're allowed to go do a sting here and there or do, you know, an occasional investigation, it sends a message, just like our predator investigation sent to the community. Right. That we're going to be proactive. We're not going to wait until there's a victim. We're going to find these guys before there's a victim. We're going to use decoys and we're going to send a missile out there. And the missile is going to hopefully be a deterrence to predatory activity. It's that simple. I mean, that's why they do these things. That's why we do these things.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. How much of the roadblocks like you were citing the 764 examples and getting kids to send awful material and stuff like that or do awful acts. How much of Roblox then translates also to being groomed for meetups in the real world, like how big of a problem.

[Chris Hansen]

There was a case just in the last Couple weeks I interviewed the sheriff of Martin County, Florida. Two girls, sisters, teenagers, were in contact with a 19 year old man from the Midwest, Idaho I believe. And he convinced them that he could provide a better life than what they were having at home. And there was some challenge in the household, but nothing horrible. They weren't being beaten or abused. And so he groomed them, drove all the way down, met them at a convenience store and was going to take them back and live together with them back in his home. And the word got out, the parents were apoplectic that these girls were missing. Called the sheriff's office, the sheriff says who's, what, what, what electronic product were they using? Well, we told them to stay off of Roblox because, you know, we thought they were up to no good. Well, let me see the tablet. They redownload Roblox and they're able to. And Snapchat and actually it went from Roblox to Snapchat. So I think they, they downloaded Snapchat again and the conversations were there. So they're able to identify him. And they, they were able to track him to a convenience store where his photo was taken video wise and there was a picture of his plate. So they were able to report that, figuring that he was headed back to his home, they put out an APB and the Georgia Highway Patrol picked him up. And the girls were uninjured, thankfully. But this, this happens with some frequency. And the initial conversation starts on Roblox because that's where kids are. And again, parents can, can shut down this chat feature. And you're not supposed to be able to chat that if your age is too far apart. But kids figure that out.

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

And this has been going on for 15 years now. We interview a man who's now 30 children of his own. Military guy. I can deadlift 716 pounds, Woody. And he was abused 15 years ago. Is a, a boy on Roblox and was brought to tears. This tough guy was telling the story about, you know, being groomed by this predator medium. Turns out he was an older guy and he tried to sexually assault him. Oh my God. And now he's, you know, got legal action against Roblox.

[Julian Dory]

How did we always use this term? Righteously. So when we're describing how these predators win over the trust of their victims. And it's called grooming. But there's all different ways that it occurs. What on roadblocks where you're dealing with something on the Internet which is also like what you've dealt with?

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, it's the same grooming. I mean it follows a template. It's either an older guy pretending to be somebody who's younger or it's an older guy who's going to co opt and convince this child that, that he can provide something that the child needs or wants. And little by little breaks down the traditional barriers that exist between adults and children in our society and convinces them to do something they shouldn't do.

[Julian Dory]

Is there a common kind of thing or like key that gets unlocked? That's a bad way to put it. Where the Rubicon. Every time it's the moment it gets crossed or does it really?

[Chris Hansen]

I think there are similarities, but you know, each case is different. Each child is vulnerable in their own way. Are they from a broken home? Are they currently having disagreements with their parents? Are their hormones raging? Do they want to be viewed as somebody older? Do they want freedom? Do they want money? Do they want jewelry? I mean it's these guys know how to push the buttons. And the problem is that this child may be in just a momentary location of vulnerability. But if the predator hits them at the exact right moment, it's a disaster.

[Julian Dory]

That's right.

[Chris Hansen]

Right. Two days. Either way, they're over it. You know, it's like sextortion. You know, the next documentary we have at True blue is extortion and we examine all these cases where young men or boys are online and they think they're talking to an attractive young woman and they trade naughty photos and it turns out it's not a young woman, it's a, a extortionist in Nigeria. And now the guy wants money and the kid's got $500 in gift cards and gives all that away and then there's no more. And he says, well, you know, f you kill yourself. These kids are so caught up in the moment they think this guy is going to, you know, publish the naughty photos and they can't get it out of their mind that this is a momentary thing. In two weeks, you know, grammar's not going to see it. In two weeks, nobody's going to care. But in the moment, the social media footprint, their presence, their identity is so intertwined with their ego that they don't see it. And 15, 16 year old boys are killing themselves. I've sat with four sets of parents. There's a state legislature in South Carolina, Brandon Guffey, son killed himself, same thing. And he goes and talks to people all the time about this. He tells kids, he goes, look, first of all, your junk's probably out there already. If you're, you know, so don't even, don't even think about that being a problem because nobody cares. And you can go to ncmec, national center for Missing Exploited Children and they'll help you scrub the Internet of anything you may have sent inadvertently or anything you were tricked into sending. They can do that, they can do that. But the point of it is these kids who kill themselves because of a momentary sense of shame if they wrote it out for another week, they're applying to colleges.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

They're back with their girlfriend. I'm stupid. And so to me, a lot of this comes back to parents. And parents have to say, I'm not blaming parents, but parents have to create an environment where if their child gets lured into something, they feel comfortable enough to say, look, look, I effed up, I need your help to get out of this. And the parents are going to yell at him. They can call him stupid after the fact or tease him about it or whatever. It becomes a joke at some point. What's not a joke is when the kid shoots himself in the head. Yeah, it's not a joke when the kid hangs himself in the closet. And man, I tell you, having kids of my own, you know, being out of the danger zone, nothing would ruin me, would destroy me like the death of a child I could do. I'm a tough guy. I could deal with a whole lot of stuff. But losing a child at 15, 16 years old, anytime, you know, a child's death precedes yours, it is, it is life altering. And the fact that they even get through this and can be advocates for other kids and other parents is nothing short of amazing to me. And I have nothing but enormous respect for all those parents who deal with, with this and for those who sat for the documentary, which is, like I said, coming out after roblox.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, we'll have that link down below, by the way. But yeah, I, I can't, I don't have kids of my own yet. I really look forward to having them. And you can't know what that's like until, until you do.

[Chris Hansen]

But, and I, you know, I hope I, I never know what it's like and I hope no other parent has to ever go through it again. But it's, it's, it's absolutely the most painful thing I can imagine.

[Julian Dory]

What about when you are, of course, you feel awful for every parent you sit with and they're devastated and yeah, that's, that, that's, that's a given. But how difficult is it when you're sitting with these parents who are devastated after the fact. And it's one where you're hearing the story and you're seeing all the places where, like, they should have had more guardrails on there or they should have known or they should have monitored this, this, or that.

[Chris Hansen]

When you ask the question in a very sensitive way because it'll elicit a response that'll help another parent from. Know how to not go through it. But, you know, I don't go out to blame any parents. And, you know, I don't know what my kids did 24 7. I'm sure they had close calls. I had close calls that my parents never found out about. I mean, yeah. Inches from death. I grew up in an era where, you know, you walked out and with a BB gun and a bow and arrow and went. Went to go play around in the woods for six hours when you're 10 years old. I mean, you know, we weren't very tightly regulated, you know, and as the oldest of three and the only boy, you know, there are elements of your life where you were sort of raised by wolves. You know, you had your buddies and your pals. It was, you know, Lord of the flies. We had a ball. Nobody ever got seriously hurt. Did we come close? Did you almost lose an eye? Did you almost crash a minibike? Yeah, all that stuff but for the grace of God, you know, and you've got to count on that. You need a little luck raising a kid, but sometimes you don't have that lucky stroke, and sometimes the kid makes a bad decision, and sometimes you're not there to catch it. And so all you can do is try to create an environment where the kid feels open enough where he can say, hey, you know, I got a problem here. You need to. We need to get this fixed up. And then that's. That's the best advice I can give. And even that's not foolproof. But that's why I harp on all these safety issues on Roblox. And Roblox is going to be all mad. And, you know, we do more than any other platform. And fine, great. Good on you. But let's tighten this up. And by the way, let's talk about it. Let's hear from these victims, let's hear from the lawyers trying to hold the company accountable. Because that discussion creates awareness and a dialogue that needs to take place. Just like the predator investigations, the takedown investigations. We do all of this stuff. It's about awareness and dialogue. And if I can light a fire under people and get them to talk about it with their kids that I won.

[Julian Dory]

Well, it's also, you make a great point that the company should want to sit down with you and should want to be transparent to fix the problem. And that's a mistake on the.

[Chris Hansen]

And they do sit down with other people. But again, it tends to be, you know, with people in the tech world.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't count. I'm saying like with someone like you who's really trying to solve this problem. If I could see outside of you, if I could see from their perspective with some of these class action lawsuits and stuff like that, with lawyers, you know, those lawyers are doing their job and they're representing usually families whose kids

[Chris Hansen]

were victims in one way or another.

[Julian Dory]

Exactly. So I'm not blaming the lawyers or anything like that. But I can could see from the company's perspective how it might get scary to even address.

[Chris Hansen]

I understand that.

[Julian Dory]

You know what I mean?

[Chris Hansen]

You also see a pattern of behavior in the part of Roblox where they're trying to hire the spokesman for the Republican Attorneys General Association. They try to get people in law enforcement to be on their team. They donate money to the alliance of Attorneys General. They want to be able to say we're the solution here. They're throwing a lot of money around. Around, you know, when, when they should maybe be throwing a little more awareness around. I think.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. Now what I mean, you talked about it a little bit ago that there's tools. Kids are, they're smart with tech. They can just get around it and stuff. But you know, that's, that's one of the scariest things about becoming a parent for me is like it just gets worse every year. All the different resources and tools and places. Someone can get hurt. And you do like you said did, you got to have some luck as a parent too. You can't put a helmet on your kid and have them go through life that way or be a helicopter. They have to be able to fend for themselves on.

[Chris Hansen]

They need to learn those skills. I mean, you know, I always look at it this way. You know, cavemen, babies survived and saber tooth tigers roam the earth. You know, civilization was initiated to continue and you know, you know there's a God and most days things go well. But you know, bad stuff can happen. Kids can get preyed upon on games like Roblox. 84 year old women can disappear, you know, for no fault of their own. I mean, bad stuff happens out there and the more we talk about it, but don't live you know, behind locked gates all the time, you have to go live your life. But you have to be aware of these potential things. And you're right, it gets more challenging every year. I mean, we had. My oldest son was. Who's 34 now, you know, when he was in high school, there's World of Warcraft and you had to be on a computer to do it. Phones weren't that sophisticated and tablets weren't really around then. So you had to sit on the computer and do it in a common area of the house. And was bedtime. It was bedtime. Well, I can. I'm letting the fellows down. Well, who are the fellows? Well, they're my guys playing get to bed. End of story.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

Play another day. Yeah, there'll be more fellows to play with. But, you know, now, God, it's just overwhelming. And I, and I think it's important for parents not to try not to be overwhelmed by the technology. You limit your children's exposure. You limit the methods that can be used for adults to approach your child. Turn off the chat function, look over their shoulder, understand the games. You know, if it's a bathroom game, the kid's not playing it. If the game. You know, where there are games like that that have been on Roblox historically, the bathroom game.

[Julian Dory]

Bathroom game.

[Chris Hansen]

Your character walks in, into a bathroom and sees different things and you go to different levels and it's, it's sexually.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

Aggressive. And it's not appropriate for kids. But there was a point where kids had access to that. Now Roblox has indicated that's tried to shut that down. But, you know, in a, in a, in a platform like that or in Discord or in a lot of different places, you know, there, there are dark corners of those platforms where kids can get into trouble.

[Julian Dory]

Well, that's the thing. And that's what's really disappointing that's coming through and what you're saying. And it's not just a transparency or the lack of transparency access, but or point that you made. It's like, you know, even when I tried to play devil's advocate two minutes ago, you, you, you can cite the sources of the. They do. It sounds like they don't really want to solve the problem.

[Chris Hansen]

I don't think Roblox wants predators harming children on their platform. I don't think so. I mean, these people have killed kids too. Right.

[Julian Dory]

But how much do they.

[Chris Hansen]

But I think in general, you know, anything that limits engagement is bad for business. And so I don't believe they found the right balance. Now, again, these things that they have done have been helpful, and I'm sure they prevented some engagement between adults and children. But, you know, I mean, maybe I'm asking too much of the company. I don't think I am. And. And this has been going on for 15 years. And the other question is, had we not been barking about this for the last six, eight months, had these lawsuits not been filed, had these attorneys general not gotten involved, would this have happened? I mean, would they have made the advancements in security that they have made? I would argue no. And again, you're letting a company legislate its own safety.

[Julian Dory]

This is also a place where, like, my brain now, I want to look at everything.

[Chris Hansen]

How do you think I feel?

[Julian Dory]

I can.

[Chris Hansen]

Up to my eyeballs.

[Julian Dory]

I can only imagine.

[Chris Hansen]

For seven, eight months now.

[Julian Dory]

I can only imagine.

[Chris Hansen]

But, like, I mean, just to try to understand it, you know, And. And, you know, thankfully, you know, we've got people who dig into this, who make it their business to be, you know, on the inside of it and, you know, both in law enforcement and in lawmaking. And. But, you know, there. There's. I had a conversation with the Florida Attorney General. Sharp guy.

[Julian Dory]

Who's that?

[Chris Hansen]

It's James Uthmeyer. Okay. And he's not in the first episode, but he'll be in the second episode. And I did a podcast episode with him, too. People can check it out. Yeah. Let's make sure we have a secret down below to have a seat with Chris Hansen and predators I've caught. And we have video versions on the have a seat with Chris Hansen YouTube channel. But he was very careful in the course of my interview, but indicated that there may be some information that was requested via criminal subpoena. Right. You subpoena these things in criminal cases that may have not been properly turned over. Now, he was very careful, so I don't want to overstep into there, but it sounded to me, as somebody who's covered these cases for a very long time, that there could potentially be liability there based upon the Florida Attorney General's investigation. So we'll see how that plays out. That's something to think about, huh?

[Julian Dory]

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm. I'm glad there's some out there who are really trying to do some. Something about it.

[Chris Hansen]

And it's. It's. And it's not just. It's. It's Florida, it's Louisiana, it's Kentucky, Tennessee, I believe. South Carolina. I. I think it's up to about eight different states.

[Julian Dory]

Now, it does concern me, though. Like, I remember three years ago, Sean Ryan, when he was on my show in episode 148, he was. He was talking all about this. And it's like, you can't even believe this is real. But you have legislators in some other states who are trying to argue, to use, like, terminology, like maps, like, minor attractive.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, that shouldn't even be in the right. In the. In the sphere of a discussion. There's no legitimacy to predators, pedophiles, criminals, being classified as somebody who's got, you know, some sort of legitimate attraction to a minor. We create laws to protect minors from being sexually exploited. And some of the ages may seem arbitrary to predators, but the reality is we have to draw a line. And society does the best it can to protect children from being tricked into situations where they're sexually exploited. And that's why we have an age of consent. And if a child is below that age of consent, even if they say yes, they can't give permission to be sexually exploited.

[Julian Dory]

All right?

[Chris Hansen]

And that's why we have these laws.

[Julian Dory]

So here's. Here's a weird one that I think about a lot now because it's actually extremely realistic. So in a lot of marriages in America, there's a common age difference of two or three years.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

Like, there's a very common trend of not always, but, you know, it's like, common that the husband will be, you know, 35 and the wife will be 33 or 32. Now, imagine they're high school sweethearts, right. The husband meets the wife when he's a junior and she's a freshman, and they begin dating, and they're teenagers, and they're interacting as teenagers do. Then one day he's a senior and he turns 18, and she's 16.

[Chris Hansen]

What's the. Well, typically, there's a sunset clause in these. So in other words, the age of consent is 16. If you're talking about somebody who's within two years of that. If you're talking about somebody that's five years older, then. Then it's a different set of circumstances so that the laws try to address that situation. You know, you bring up an interesting point. You know, there was a documentary done recently on the Looking at the whole To Catch a Predator takedown experience. And, you know, there. It's one director's point of view. Right. And there's some good things, productive things out of it, and I cooperated with it. There's some things that were left out that I thought were important. But. But one of the critical aspects, the aspects that were critical of my investigations was that in one case There was an 18 year old who was caught trying to hook up with a 15 year old and he was criminally prosecuted, but the case was sent to diversion. And the question, they interviewed the kid's mother who got busted and she was critical of us and our investigation and claim that he couldn't go to his high school graduation because of the embarrassment of getting caught. Well, there's a big age difference between 18 and 15. Right? 18 and 15, first of all is not 30 and 33. That's right, right. When you were 18, did you date any 15 year olds? No, of course not. That wouldn't be right. You know, and, and it was illegal, it was against the law. So do I feel sorry that this 18 year old couldn't go to his graduation? I feel sorry for a 13, 14 or 15 year old kid who could have been sexually exploited by the 18 year old who then wasn't in mentally healthy shape to go to their high school graduation. So I don't have a lot of sympathy in these cases. I mean, to me it's pretty common sense. Yes. Right.

[Julian Dory]

Now what about this other one? This is another one I think about a lot. Are you familiar with the Josh Giddy situation?

[Chris Hansen]

Yes. So that's different.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

And I. Here's why it's different. Here's a young man was 21 when he was 19. He was 19. Okay, so he's 19 and he's in a club. Right. And he's approached by a girl in the club. In the club who, if I have the story straight, says that she's the same age.

[Julian Dory]

I think she said she was 21.

[Chris Hansen]

21?

[Julian Dory]

Yeah, I think so. Check me on that in the comments. But yes.

[Chris Hansen]

So what is his due diligence to suggest that a woman who had to show ID to get into the club was lying to him?

[Julian Dory]

Intent you're talking about.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, Mountain. I don't think he was setting out to be a predator.

[Julian Dory]

Agreed.

[Chris Hansen]

I think he was a 19 year old guy who met a very attractive young woman and just assumed that she was of the appropriate age because of where this happened now.

[Julian Dory]

And she looked it too, Chris, Like

[Chris Hansen]

I saw the pictures. I saw the pictures. Now I, I'm not one to defend predatory activity, but I don't think in this case, and you look at the totality of the case, young guy playing in the NBA, you shouldn't get a break for that because he's a athlete, celebrity.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

But he should also have some consideration for being targeted because of that. And this wasn't a situation where he was. And again, my understanding is that it wasn't a situation where he was plying somebody with drinks to take advantage of them, if anybody was taking advantage. That's an argument story. Yeah, There was a difference. Different power dynamic. To me, it's about the power dynamic. Who had power in that situation?

[Julian Dory]

Yes.

[Chris Hansen]

And I think it was equal in that situation. And so I think he got a stern talking to, and there were a number of conversations. And I think he'll be checking ID going forward.

[Julian Dory]

I think so as well. But that was like, point being. That was the rare one where I agree with you.

[Chris Hansen]

I think so. And trust me, you're not getting any sympathy out of me. Yeah, right.

[Julian Dory]

That's why I asked.

[Chris Hansen]

So I have to, you know, you. But you bear these things in mind, and you have to put yourself in that situation as a young fellow. And you, you know, you put your. Is it the father of, you know, two boys? You. You put yourself in that situation and you preach to them growing up that, you know, no means no, and you show respect for women. And, you know, if it's a gray area, you know, it was meant to be. It'll meant to be a different day. But don't ever, you know, assume things. And. And it's important to tell young men that and boys that. But to me, that situation, again, without having a report around or talk to anybody intimately involved. And it was exactly that. Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

There are. One thing I've learned, though, in the studio, unfortunately, is that there are, you know, we obviously have our own problems here in America, to be very clear, but, you know, there's. There are cultures around the world that openly normalize this. And I'll. I'll explain. Let me give an exact example. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but I have had Navy SEALs sitting in that chair, Army Rangers sitting in that chair, Delta Force guys sitting in that chair, all who served years in Afghanistan. And they all tell the same story.

[Chris Hansen]

Oh, yeah. And you'll hear the same stories from people at Quantico, where they host Afghans to study military techniques. You know, these are people who are supposed to be fighting on our team, but there's a different culture in some respects. And. And, you know, it's. It's. I mean, watch the movie Kite Runner.

[Julian Dory]

What do you do about. I mean.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I think you certainly can't condone it, of course. Do you go to war over it to try to change another culture? I don't know that that's the answer. I think you don't condone it. You don't look the other way, but you don't, you know, again, you hope that their society changes. I guess you use diplomacy and carrot and stick and, you know, if it's, if it's something that outrageous, you say, look, you're only getting American money if you change the policy.

[Julian Dory]

Right.

[Chris Hansen]

Or you encourage people to change their behavior and economic inducements work. And so you try to work that way, but it's, we have to worry about our world first and then change culture overseas or you change the culture overseas that affects our world. And I think these are, you know, you do these in terms of what's most critical, what's most pressing, and what's most dangerous to us at this moment.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. Now, there's moments, I say this all the time, but there's moments in here, in different podcasts that just stick with you, right. Where you're talking to someone and some point comes up and the way they say something to me and the gravity of the point is just like, whoa. And that's wired into me. And I had one of those with Andy Bustamante last year, who used to be in CIA, definitely still is, but I was asking him about some of the worst he ever saw out in the field. And he talked about, you know, meeting with some general or something in the middle of Africa who had all these 8 year old, 9 year old, 10 year old child soldiers around him, who they were plying up on drugs, who they were sexually abusing, all these awful things. And then the soldiers who were watching over them had been the same child soldiers that had that happen to them. And it was just this giant cycle.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

And I said to him, I said, andy, how do you fix something like that? And there was a long pause and he sat back and he was just like, this is gonna sound so bad. I'm like, go ahead, say it. He goes, you just gotta kill them all. You just gotta get a reset.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, sadly, sadly, he's probably right. It's so ingrained into the civilization that that's the way it works. That's the way it worked for them. It's the way it worked for their, their brothers and their parents. And, you know, I, I've been to Sierra Leone and I've been to that part of the world and, and you know, we didn't see, you know, wars or battles or what Andy described, but we saw the remnants of it. We did a story on Al Qaeda using Blood diamonds to fund terrorism. And we talked to the guys who were doing the investigation and we went back to the places where it all happened and, and, and, you know, got a realistic dose of it. But what he described is exactly, you know, could see some of this in the movie Blood Diamond. I mean, it's very realistic. And that's the, the clash of, of, of culture that we have. And it's very tribal there. And in other parts of the world, Afghanistan is the same way. I mean, it's. It's warring tribes and factions. And this goes back generations, before America was America. So how do you change that? And it's very difficult to change. And there's a certain truth to what he says. We don't do that because we are a civilized society. We try to handle it the way we should handle it. But, you know, it's ingrained.

[Julian Dory]

There's no question now that we see, though, that the problem that like normal folk out here, we're seeing that the problem is wider than we ever even imagined. Though here at home, it's, it's. We're talking about other places, but here at home we got problems like this.

[Chris Hansen]

It's like at least we're arresting people. At least we're being proactive and doing these kinds of investigations. At least we're creating content like this podcast where we're discussing it and we're, you know, we're not just treating it as a, you know, dirty little secret. Right. You know, we're exposing it, we're discussing it. And again, my mantra, we're creating awareness and a discussion that perhaps didn't exist before. So. So if somebody listens to this or watches the Dangerous Games documentary on Roblox or watches any of the takedown investigations, they get something out of it. Yeah, I get. Look, these predator investigations, it's a collision. It's a collision where somebody gets caught committing a felony in real time. They get interrogated by me and, or law enforcement. They get cuffed, arrested, sometimes tased or maced, and. And off they go. And there are darkly humorous elements of it that I lean into because I've learned over 20 some years that it gets people's attention. And again, if it gets people's attention, then we're learning something from it. Yes.

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[Julian Dory]

now. I agree with you. There's work that gets done, like what you do, like what law enforcement does where justice is served. And I don't want to understate that, because it does happen. And we see people, whether it be the doctors or the lawyers or the truckers or whoever it is doing these things, face justice, and we should continue to see that. But you strike me as an optimist as well on the report.

[Chris Hansen]

You have to be. You can do this kind of reporting and not be an optimist. You couldn't do this kind of reporting without being able to escape it and ski down a mountain or to cook a meal and forget about it for a minute or watch something silly on television or, or hang out with your kids or your wife or your family. And you have to have that skill. You must have it, because you can't spend your life, even as a young fellow in the studio. You got to go out and do something that's right. You got to cleanse your mind and you got to refresh yourself and develop a recharge of energy to go out and do it a different day. I mean, we travel a lot to go do these stories. I have for many years, I've got. Got 4 million miles on American Airlines and 2 million on Delta. I mean, I, I've seen the road. I've been around the world. And it can, it can, it can, it can. It can wear you down if you're not fit, both mentally and physically. But you've got to be up to the challenge. You know, some of this stuff people say, how do you travel and do all this stuff? Getting an airplane is like shaving to me. It's just something you do before you go to work, and that's it. And you can't get bogged down. And you know, again, there are way worse places to be stranded than, you know, Delray Beach, Florida. But we were there for that charity, Child Rescue Coalition. And, you know, it was down there a couple days now. There was stuff I needed to be doing back here, and I had to cram a lot of stuff and including this fine podcast with you into fewer days than I had to do a lot of stuff. But you can't, you got to get over it. You can't get so bogged down in the process, that you don't see the bigger picture and the importance of what it is that you do. And also, you got to realize that sometimes you have to change the way you do it. Just because we did it this way for years and years, that doesn't mean that we're going to do it this way forever. We have to adapt. Look at what you know from, from the first investigation, Bethpage, Long Island. We do our predator investigations a whole different way. Yes, but guess what? Everybody's getting prosecuted. 99% successfully prosecuted. Now, sometimes that may result in a plea agreement and probation, and sometimes it may mean going to prison for life, depending on the factors involved. But it's happening. But we've had to adapt to the changing technology platforms, to the changes in the law, to our ability to set up cameras in different places. I mean, all kinds of things, factors involved. But you can't just say, okay, well, we've already, we've done it this way since 2004. This is the way we're all going to do it. That's not how life works.

[Julian Dory]

You've adapted mediums, styles, things you're going after. It's great.

[Chris Hansen]

All kinds of things.

[Julian Dory]

And you're right. I, I too am an optimist. And I'm glad you are. I suspected that. And I think you make an amazing point and that's important. The reason I'm bringing it up at this moment, though, is because I understand people out there listening right now who are feeling really cynical and let down. Not because Chris Hansen has failed. Chris Hansen's done his job. But like we see powerful people. You talk about people going to jail, none of those people.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, you wonder why people believe in all these elitist conspiracy theories.

[Julian Dory]

That's right.

[Chris Hansen]

Because look at what has come out in the Epstein files. That's right. Look at this. You know, and still Les Wexner claims that he didn't know that Epstein was doing anything wrong. Wrong. Didn't, didn't become aware of any crimes until he decided to cut him loose. You know, is that possible?

[Julian Dory]

You, you are not, as you said, you're not technically like a trained psychiatrist and you're not a trained body language expert. But I would argue there's probably not a lot of people in the world from a body language and psychiatry expert of like predators like you, who has the experience on the see it.

[Chris Hansen]

I can read their faces when I see him. I know exactly what they're going to say.

[Julian Dory]

Right. So when you see Les Wexner's five hour deposition and you're watching him huddle in, move his arm, blink rate at.

[Chris Hansen]

What about what his attorney says? Yeah, I'm going to kill you.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. What are your thoughts?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I, I, I mean, I don't have any smoking gun, but. Why does a man, a billionaire, a titan of industry, sign over power of attorney to Jeffrey Epstein? Now, that was his M.O. if I'm going to handle your finances, I need power of attorney. I need to be able to react quickly to markets. I need to move money around. I need to do this stuff. He would say that to other clients. But, I mean, if you believe the account, and I have no reason to disbelieve this particular one. I mean, I mean, Wexner essentially signed over that Upper east side New York home. That's right. The biggest single residential piece of property on the island of Manhattan.

[Julian Dory]

That's right. $10.

[Chris Hansen]

Why do you do that?

[Julian Dory]

Why?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, because the guy's got something over your head or you want him quiet or happy, or he's making you so much money you don't care. Let's take, let's take the least objectionable reason. He's making you so much money, you don't care. He's giving you tax advice. He's got shelters. All right, but you know what happens when he's a convicted sex offender in 2008? Is that when he cut off contact, or did it happen after that?

[Julian Dory]

That's what he alleges. He cut off.

[Chris Hansen]

That's what he alleges.

[Julian Dory]

But even 20, 20 some years before that, like you said, power of attorney, handing over the biggest, biggest townhouse in New York City.

[Chris Hansen]

And you, and what you don't know that he's, you know, got girls and he's abusing his, his relationship with you to run around with these models and recruit people. There's a lot of suicides involved here. Yes. That French modeling agent, he was into this up to his eyeballs.

[Julian Dory]

Epstein unalived himself.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. I don't think I believe that, but,

[Chris Hansen]

yeah, I don't know. I, I mean, I tend to be a little less conspiratorial. I mean, I understand why people are asking questions. And I did see some documents, documents today, you know, where prosecutors referred to it as the Epstein murder, not the Epstein suicide. So it was at a Freudian slip, or is it more? But, you know, when you, when you drip, drip, drip these, these, you know, revelations and documents, it's. Every day there's going to be something different.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah. And it also, like I would imagine, I think you were even citing Some examples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, like, you've seen the things that happen, like in the modeling industry and particularly. And how these young women and actually girls, like 15, 16, quite literally get traffic to men through the people that run these places, which is not to say automatically, therefore, Les Wexner is guilty because he has Victoria's Secret. But it's certainly quite a coincidence now.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah. But I mean, if. If you're going to be a guy who goes after. To try to exploit those people, where are you gonna go? You're gonna go where there's a healthy supply of them. Yeah. And starry eyed girls who want to be the next Victoria's Secret supermodel and have a career after that are very vulnerable.

[Julian Dory]

Absolutely. It's like when you pray. That's. That's some of the lowest stuff. When you prey on someone's ultimate fears or dreams, which are the opposites technically of each other. You are. And that's what all these guys do.

[Chris Hansen]

Do.

[Julian Dory]

Regardless of who they are or, like, when they're grooming them. That's exactly what they do to these kids. It's like, God, I was. I was still totally stupid when I was 25. And I just imagine, like, what if I was in the wrong place, wrong time when I was like, 14, you know?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, everybody's got close calls. I mean, you know, I grew up pretty fat. I was on television at 20 years old. So, you know, I was a reporter. I mean, we still had a lot of fun. You run around and do what young men do, but I had a pretty solid sense of responsibility pretty early on. But you're right. I mean, 13, 14 years old, you think you're a grown man, but you're not, and you're vulnerable. And I think a woman from Eastern Europe who's very attractive and has a shot is told by a French modeling agent that you're the next big thing. But this is kind of how it works. You need to meet my friend Jeffrey. I mean, crazy. And these guys are doing this all day long. It's crazy.

[Julian Dory]

Do things like. Remember south park made the episode nambla.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

North American Man Boy Love association or something like that. Things like that really exist?

[Chris Hansen]

Oh, nambla. Absolutely. It exists. Absolutely. It has been around a long time. And the FBI had pretty much extinguished nambla. Big investigations until the advent of the Internet. And suddenly they could communicate without being detected. But. Oh, that's a real thing. That's not conspiracy pizza stuff.

[Julian Dory]

Wow. That's what. And. And that's again, this is Where I try to stay an optimist on society. But, but it gets hard.

[Chris Hansen]

I mean, they used to have cruises, you know, cruises. They get a yacht and they, they have this stuff. They, they, they FBI did stings on this stuff, you know, before everything went digital. And they'd put out pamphlets and, you know, back page ads on newspapers and, and they'd put these things together and they'd sting these guys. But they, they put them out of business almost and then suddenly they're back at it with the Internet.

[Julian Dory]

What are the most important things? Like we were talking about the Roblox example, which is online. But you know, if you had one, two or three, just main pieces of advice for parents to be on the lookout for their kids safety when it comes to predators, what would those be?

[Chris Hansen]

I would say that, that you need to be aware of what they're doing online. You need to look over their shoulder. They should not have a device in their bedroom at night. And you have to start at the very moment they have access to the Internet, whatever age that is, by telling them there are grownups on the Internet who like to trick kids. Kids do not like to be tricked. And that'll get their attention. And then you have to ratchet this up incrementally as they get older and more curious and they want to show their independence. And you got to say, look, you know, I heard this today. I heard that today. I remember very early on in the predator investigations, we had a, a dozen middle schoolers on risers. And I said, show of hands. How many of you been approached by an adult and made you feel uncomfortable? Nine out of 12. How many of you told your kids two parents. Yeah, they're parents. And I said, why? Well, we're afraid they're going to take the computer away, the Internet away. And that was the most telling thing I've ever heard.

[Julian Dory]

I, you know, I try to be careful. I always say this, but a common phrase people will throw around is if I were blank, think then I would blank about something very serious. And I don't know that you fully know that about most things until you actually experience those things. But one thing I think about being a future parent that I feel very strongly about is something you kind of cited earlier, which is a more. In an even more stereotypical example, which is like if my kid were at a party when they're 16 or 17, they were a little drunk and something was wrong, I'll come get you. And I'm not gonna. You're not punished. And there's that trust.

[Chris Hansen]

I've had that speech when my kids were in that age group.

[Julian Dory]

Right. I think you make an amazing point that there needs to be. Parents should feel comfortable without, you know, pushing that boundary too far, if you know what I mean, like having repeat offenses and shit like that. But I think parents should be comfortable to be able to have that conversation about online stuff, too.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, right. It's. Look, stuff's going to happen.

[Julian Dory]

Yeah.

[Chris Hansen]

Right. This is the nature of the Internet. Stuff will. If you're on the Internet long enough, something will happen. That's right. But the reason I'm going to allow you to stay on the Internet is that if something does happen, you come to me and tell me about it. I'm not going to beat you up. We'll get a solution together. You know, I took my dad's advice many years ago. You know, your job is not to be your kid's friend. Friend. It's to be their father. And so you're going to make decisions that are unpopular. They're going to stomp off to their room, they're going to call you names, they're going to be an argument. Bad language is going to be used. But you got to stay calm. The whole. The trick to being a parent is to get your kids to do what you know is right for them, what you want them to do, and make them think it's their idea. That's the. That's the. That's the deal. That's all it is. Yeah, that's all it is. And if you can do that, you win.

[Julian Dory]

It's good advice.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

What were your favorite stories you worked on before you became Chris Hansen? To Catch a Predator.

[Chris Hansen]

You know, there's so many. And back in those days, we were allowed to travel internationally and do things. But probably the most impactful story, I think, was when we teamed with an NGO and went to Cambodia with the International Justice Mission ijm, and they were investigating Americans going over to Cambodia and other places to commit sex tourism with underage kids. And we infiltrated a brothel in Svapak, about 11 kilometers outside of Phrampen. And. And our producer and our hidden camera guys posed as sex tourists. We went in there and set up a party, and we had local authorities as part of it. And we put this together, and we rescued about 37 girls. Whoa. And in the course of the investigation, we caught an American doctor over there who I later confronted in Guam in a parking structure where he was. He would travel as an anesthesiologist. Right. So, you know, we pick him off. And we caught him like we had him on camera talking about he thought he was on a tourism show and he was talking about how he likes to go over there. Then we had him on hidden camera talking about the young girls and. And then I lowered the boom on him in a parking garage in Guam and just tore him from year to year.

[Julian Dory]

Did he get prosecuted?

[Chris Hansen]

He did not, shockingly. But in that story, two important things happened. A lot of important things happened. But two detectives in Vancouver, Canada were watching the story when it aired the first time on Dateline. And they recognized the background in the brothel and they said, you know what? And they call each other watching it separately, they said, this looks like the background on the videotape we took from the guy we arrested for beating up a sex worker. Follow this, they look at it, they go over to the brothel, they match it. And it turns out the guy they arrested in Vancouver, British Columbia for beating up a sex worker had also been to that same brothel in Svapak. And they arrested him and he took a seven year plea for sex tourism. And then we went back four years later to check on the girls who were rescued. And eight or 10 of them were in a bridge school. And I mean, they looked like a million bucks in the school dresses. They go to school every day and I'm sure there was long term damage. And I, you know, interviewed them and of course there was a translator involved. My Khmer is not, you know, fluent. And so we finish up the interview and they, they said, well, when are you leaving, going back to America? I said, well, tomorrow or day after tomorrow. And they said, can we go to the airport with you to say goodbye? I said, absolutely. If it's fine with the people here at the bridge school, it's fine by me. So now they, you know, do their minds really understand who I am or what I did or all they know there is, they're in a better place. And I had this tall American had something to do with it, right? I'm not looking to take credit for it, but if, you know, they want to go to the airport. If the school folks say it's okay, it's okay with me. And the guy pulls me aside, he said, well, it has more to do with the fact that the only Dairy Queen in the entire country of Cambodia is at the airport. I said, no ego problems there. Send them. NBC can pay for, you know, eight banana splits. So we go to and we're filming this, right? Because it's part of the deal. We've gone back and how are these girls doing? And we're eating the Banana Splits and we're, we're communicating as best as we can and time to say goodbye. And we're doing the whole, you know, Asian goodbye thing and honoring each other and that. The Phnom Penh airport has a two story glass wall. When you go in to check in and then go through security. And so they follow me and they've got their hand. I say goodbye. Goodbye. Said goodbye a hundred times, right? So now they've got their hands against the glass, you know, weeping. And I go back and put my hands against the glass. Now I'm weeping. The cameraman who's been with me in the most horrible places in the world is weeping, the producer's weeping and everybody's weeping and we leave. And we filmed all that and we put it in the story. It was quite powerful. But, you know, those are things, things like that, you know, and there's, you know, there's some fun stories along the way too. I mean, there's some crazy things that happen. I mean, after the Oklahoma City bombing, we were on the trail of Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols and John Doe number two. We thought that was a thing. And, and there was a mysterious figure named Andrea Strassmeyer who was associated with all these people, and he was on the gun show circuit and he had gone back to Berlin and everybody wanted to find this guy. And I got a tip and I went in to talk to our executive producer at the time. And I said, look, I can't be certain, but I think I know where this guy is. He said, well, what are the odds? I said, I think it's 60%. We find him. He goes, you got four days. So producer and I get on a plane, we fly to Berlin. Now we've got four days in Germany to find this guy. On day one, we find him at 9:15 in the morning, gives us a 30 minute interview, we get video of him on the subway in Berlin and we're done. So now we've got three days to go screw around and carry on and drink beer in Berlin. And we had a ball. But, you know, it just, it's an amazing, it's an amazing business to be in. And it's, it's been an amazing time to experience it at all. You know, I've gotten to go to places I never dreamed of going and expose things I never knew existed and to, you know, tell that story and to work with amazing people at NBC and in between and now, you know, and to Have a situation where we have True Blue, where we own the content, we own the distribution of the content. We have a, you know, a bit of a relationship with Fox News, and the podcasts are on the Fox platform. And so it's. Life is great. You know, we got. It's, it's very busy, but it's very fulfilling. And, you know, I drive a great deal of satisfaction and, and to have some control over the editorial part of it, too, and, and the business part of it, you know, and I'm not, you know, I'm not the cfo. I'm not the CEO. I'm partner, part owner. I'm the brand.

[Julian Dory]

Business.

[Chris Hansen]

I'm the brand. Yeah, but that's my job. I don't need to do the rest of the stuff. I've got people who do that for me. And so I get to be the brand and go out and do the stuff. So it's good. It's very fulfilling.

[Julian Dory]

When you were doing cases like that, though, where you're tracking, like, ongoing investigations into crime, which obviously you still do today. But I'm saying, you know, now you work directly with law enforcement when you do this stuff. But back then, how did you handle a situation where you as a journalist were actually getting somewhere in the investigation and getting to, like, a key component of it and then having to make the choice as to whether or not to loop in law enforcement on it or have you go hit it first?

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I, I think you make those decisions on a case by case basis, but you, you have to put justice and a criminal prosecution ahead of. You know, there are ways to do it simultaneously. I mean, there's always a way to figure it out out so that you get what you need and law enforcement gets what it needs. I've never been in a situation where I couldn't figure it out. Now I've been in a situation where unknowingly, I've been ahead of law enforcement.

[Julian Dory]

What was that?

[Chris Hansen]

It's happened many times, but you either slow down and let them catch up or you help them with what you found. You know, so a bad guy goes to jail, but, you know, there, you know, this is the stuff they don't teach in journalism school. This is the stuff you have to figure out, you know, in the process of it. You know, I remember being a reporter in Detroit, and the police chief was on trial for corruption. And I remember an investigator telling me that somebody had come over to do some work on his kitchen, and a tinfoil brick, tinfoil covered brick of money fell out of the ceiling. And she said, oh, he found my poker money. Well, it was money that was stolen from the department permit. And so I'm in the elevator with the, the assistant U.S. attorney who's prosecuting the case before the trial, and I tell the story, kind of looks weird and just kind of shows off. After the trial they convict him. And he said, I got to tell you, something goes, I did not know about that story until you told me in the elevator. I said, you're kidding me. He says, well, no, we figured it out. I would have found out. But, but. So here I am as a reporter, yeah, knowing about the, the cash of cash in the kitchen of the former police chief of the city of Detroit. And you know, the guy who's prosecuting the case wasn't aware of it. So, you know, you figure stuff out along the way.

[Julian Dory]

Some poor desk jockey got chewed the fuck out right after that for sure. Were you with NBC working out of New York when 911 happened?

[Chris Hansen]

Yes, I was with NBC. I left Detroit to go to NBC in 1993, so.

[Julian Dory]

But you were here.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I wasn't in New York. I was actually in Toronto on an unrelated story. And I was watching. It was actually a story on a plane that made a dead stick landing on the island of Terceira. This A320 or A321. Airbus was flying from Toronto to Portugal to Lisbon and there was a mechanical issue and it was bleeding fuel. And the pilots didn't figure it out out, and they just thought they had an imbalance. So they opened the, the valve to put fuel in the other tank and it all bled out. And they ran out of fuel at 30, 000ft. And so this pilot was able to circle the plane and they have a device that pops out that generates power. He's able to circle the plane and navigate and without power for 30 minutes, make a dead stick landing at an Air force base, a joint use air force base on the island of Tricera, which is an Asia. So we're in the middle of doing that story, which is the kind of story we do occasionally for Dateline. And we'd done the interviews and some of the guys went out for a few pops at night and I stayed in for whatever reason and was up early, went for a run and all dressed up, ready to go. And, and I'm watching the television monitor in the hotel room and there's smoke coming out of one of the towers of the World Trade Center. And I call the office, I said, dave, what's going on, we think a pilot had a heart attack and crashed into the building and standby, but we think you're just going to go on to Colorado to work on the next story. I said, all right, well, let me know. Second tower gets hit. And I called back and said, I'm on my way. So I roused everybody up. We get to the airport and they're canceling flights. I said, just get a rental car to the producer, just go get a Hertz car. And we're in Toronto. So I said, fine. I said, we're headed south. Let me know what's going on. So we're monitoring this the whole way. I'm calling sources and trying to get information and we get to the, the bridge to go into Buffalo. And I said, look, we can either go to Boston or we can go to New York. He said, we got a ton of people in New York. Boston's where two of the planes came from. You know, we need information from there, so go there. So we went there because that's where Mohammed Atta and his crew got on the, the plane from Portland, Maine. They changed planes into Boston and Boston at the time had a notoriously shoddy security setup and they exploited it in every, every possible way. So we reported from Boston for two days and jumped on a train. Reported from New York and Washington for the, for the rest of it, but very involved in it.

[Julian Dory]

I mean, you go to ground zero.

[Chris Hansen]

I did not at the time, because it was, there were people down there and they didn't need any more people down there. I mean, we were doing stories on the big picture stuff. There's no reason for me to be there. We had, you know, other reporters were there day to day. You know, you could go up to the roof at 30 Rock and do your stand up and, and see it right in the background, still smoking. But we would do the money trail and how all this other stuff worked and backgrounds and all the hijackers and how they solved the case. We're doing long form versions for Dateline for the network really, because it was in situations like that Dateline served as the long form producers of the stories.

[Julian Dory]

It's amazing that all these years later with something that we all watch happen live as well.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, it was, it was this

[Julian Dory]

unforgettable. I was a very little kid, but I remember it vividly. It's just unforgettable image.

[Chris Hansen]

My kids were living in Connecticut at the time and my kids could go down to the end of the point and look, see it 38 miles across and See the smoke come up and everybody knew somebody who was killed.

[Julian Dory]

That's right. But it's amazing that all these years later we still don't have so many answers about it. And most importantly, like the families who lost people, people still, even through court, haven't been able to get answers on things.

[Chris Hansen]

Well, I think, you know, we did a lot of reporting on that. You know, what did the CIA know, what was shared with the FBI? Why didn't we know that these guys met in Kuala Lumpur and then similar guys showed up in meetings in San Diego taking flight lessons and who was the 20th hijacker? And you know, those are all the stories we did in the aftermath of it. And, and we did some very good reporting there. But you know, it's a different world now. We have different cooperation, different level of intelligence and I hope we don't back

[Julian Dory]

slide into right where we were right now. You got this two part documentary coming out on Roblox.

[Chris Hansen]

Yes.

[Julian Dory]

So it's coming out bi weekly, is that right?

[Chris Hansen]

It's so, yes. So the first episode, which is an hour and a very compelling hour if I do say so myself, the editors did a phenomenal job on it. I can't take credit for that, but I did all the interviews. That is out now on True Blue. Watch trueblue.com for details. That's my streaming crime network. And then in two weeks time, the

[Julian Dory]

second part, right when this is coming,

[Chris Hansen]

so probably right about the time this airs, part two will be out and that's another hour. And then my prediction is that so much will come out of both of them that that'll probably generate a third hour part.

[Julian Dory]

Great, okay. Because that was gonna be my next question. I would imagine. This is an investigation you're going to continue.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, we're staying on it. I mean, look, this is how I, I feel about this investigation. This Roblox story is like to catch a Predator 2026. Same DNA, different battlefield.

[Julian Dory]

That's a good way to put it.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah.

[Julian Dory]

Would you be open to it? Let's say these two come out and obviously it's like, wow, Chris Hansen really went in on Roblox and there's righteous public anger from it. Would you be open to now if Roblox reapproached?

[Chris Hansen]

Absolutely. I told and I told him in the emails, back and forth. I said, you know, they clearly thought that this was going to be an unfair project for them because of who we interviewed. They don't like Schlepp, they don't like the Attorney General in Louisiana And I said, well, the best way to deal with that is to come out and talk. And they said, no, we're not going to do that. That. So I said, if you change your mind, I will accommodate. If they call me tomorrow and said, we want to be interviewed, I'll be on a plane to San Mateo.

[Julian Dory]

All right, good. Give them a call.

[Chris Hansen]

Let's go. Yeah, they know that.

[Julian Dory]

Well now they definitely know we got on the record. But this has been awesome, man.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, I appreciate it, Julian. It was, it was fantastic and great experience and I appreciate the long form conversation and appreciate everything you do well.

[Julian Dory]

I'd love to do it again at some point.

[Chris Hansen]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm in work. All right, thanks so much everybody else.

[Julian Dory]

Make sure you go check out Chris's documentary on Roadblock on Roblox. That's going to be linked down below. We'll also link your podcast and everything as well. Make sure we have everything in there. But that said, give us thought. Get back to me. Peace. What's up, guys? Thanks so much for watching the video. If you have not subscribed, please hit that subscribe button before you leave. As well as leaving a like on the video. It's a huge. You can join my patreon via the link in the description and you can also join my clipping community via the Discord link down below. See you for the next episode.

[Chris Hansen]

There's a world where legends race across city skylines. Romance blossoms in glittering ballrooms. And there's magic around every corner. It's a world known to many as Great Britain. You've seen the action on screen. Now visit the real star of the show. Visit Great Britain. To discover more, go to tripadvisor.com Great Britain.