#401 - “Haunts Me!” - NYPD Terror Detective on 9/11, Epstein & Interrogation Mastery | Tom Smith - Julian Dorey Podcast

Transcript

A (0:00)

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B (0:35)

Well, Tom Smith, it is great to have you here. Our mutual friend Jesse Weber said I had to talk to you. And if these last 30 minutes off camera, any preview, this is gonna be a lot of fun, man. Thanks for coming.

A (0:45)

No, thank you for having me. It's a privilege to be here, honestly.

B (0:48)

Well, it's my pleasure. But it also looks like, you know, you retired a few years ago. You look like you still take those pythons out and beat the, out of someone on the streets of New York.

A (0:56)

Not, not like just beat the heck out of the gym. That's about it. That's about it these days. The other, the other part. Let the young kids do that. Yeah.

B (1:05)

I don't know if they make them like your generation anymore. Now it seems to be a whole different kind of culture. When you talk to guys who are in NYPD or in, you know, any of these major, major league, like police departments around the country, like, it's different with the millennials and Gen Z's kind of coming on board now.

A (1:24)

It's very different. The mindset's different, policies are different, laws are different, you know, and the way the public looks upon the police are different. And that's because of the media. You know, you get villainized, you know, in being this kind of figure out there that people believe back in the day, and I hate using that term, I'm sorry, I just did. But when I started, it was different. You know, cops were respected because of upbringing that went on with their families, you know, of respect the police. If you get in trouble, it's on you. It's not the police fault, it's your fault, you know, and that's the way it was viewed back then. Whereas today it's reversed. You're just picking on me because. No, I'm just enforcing the law. You screwed up and that's it. But back then it was, it was easier to be a cop. It's harder today because of social media, because of phones, because of videos. You know, you see cops out there today and it drives me crazy when I see videos of cops getting in fights because they're allowed to defend themselves. They're allowed to get in a fight and you're allowed to win a fight. But you see these videos and they kind of step back a little of just kind of holding on to people they're fighting, waiting for someone to show up and help them. Whereas the mindset that you do get in fights and you're allowed to, and you're allowed to win a fight, and we got told back in the Academy in 1990, you're not allowed to lose a fight under any circumstances. You cannot lose a fight. So you do everything you can to win that fight. And does that include using your weapon if necessary? Sure. You know, there were, you know, that's very strict and that's a different level, you know, of a force. But you were allowed to get in fights and win fights. And we did a lot back then. You know, you got to remember back back then, you know, New York City was in the midst of a absolute crime epidemic back in the late 80s, you know, with crack and the beginning of the 90s with, you know, 3,000 homicides, you know, and 2800 homicides and 115,000 robberies.

Summary

Julian Dorey Podcast – Episode #401 “Haunts Me!” - NYPD Terror Detective on 9/11, Epstein & Interrogation Mastery Guest: Tom Smith | Date: March 27, 2026

Episode Overview In this gripping episode, Julian sits down with Tom Smith, a retired NYPD detective who dedicated three decades to public service—including the elite Joint Terrorism Task Force after 9/11. The conversation spans Tom’s upbringing in crime-ridden New York, the evolution of policing culture, lessons in interrogation, the aftershocks of 9/11, real talk about Jeffrey Epstein’s case, and the complex psychology behind crime, power, trauma, and survival. Tom delivers remarkable candor and storytelling, sharing wisdom for the next generation and vivid accounts from both the streets of NYC and the global war on terror.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Changing Face of Policing

Generational Shifts & Culture [01:05–03:40]
- Tom reflects on the major changes in NYPD culture since the 1990s, contrasting the “win at all costs” mentality of his era (“You're not allowed to lose a fight under any circumstances”) to the increasingly scrutinized, restraint-focused policing today.
- Quote: “[Back in the day] cops were respected because of upbringing... you got in trouble, it's your fault, not the police. Whereas today it's reversed. You're just picking on me because... No, I'm just enforcing the law. You screwed up and that's it.” — Tom Smith [02:00]
Impact of the Drug Epidemic [03:55–05:28]
- 1970s/80s: Crime exploded due to drugs (heroin, cocaine, crack).
- Crack was "five bucks and an immediate, an immediate high." [05:06]

2. Upbringing and the Influence of Family

Legacy of Policing [05:40–09:48]
- Raised by an NYPD detective father, Tom was steeped in the world of law enforcement from a young age.
- “Driving around the Bronx or Manhattan with my dad was a history lesson. Every street was a story, every alley was a story.” — Tom Smith [06:16]

3. Detective Skills & Interrogation Mastery

Communication Over Everything [09:00–09:48]
- Core advice: “If you can't talk to people, you're not going to be successful... You should be able to talk to the CEO of the biggest company or the worst crackhead on a corner.” — Tom Smith [09:29]
Interrogation Tactics
- Emphasizes respect—disrespect shuts people down [09:52–10:38].
- Good cop/bad cop is real, but authenticity matters [10:43–11:30].
- Don’t assume guilt; keep an open mind (“If you have a closed mind... You're not going to listen to what they're saying. That can skew an investigation badly.”) [11:53–12:28]
Psychology of Confessions [14:40–18:32]
- Establish rapport on neutral topics (sports), then pivot.
- Often, criminals “want to be famous,” linking to the psychology of boasting and notability in crime [18:06–18:32].

4. Power, Criminal Psychology & Gray Areas

Why Kingpins Do What They Do [18:38–21:19]
- Stories of notorious figures like Nicky Barnes (“It wasn’t about the drugs or the money. It’s about the power.”) [19:51–20:20]
Blurred Moral Lines of Power [22:16–25:11]
- Power dynamics are complex; societal lines between “legal” and “illegal” powerful figures often blend.

5. Beat Cop Reality: The Human Side

Raw Conditions, Relationships with Community & Criminals [25:52–30:45]
- Patrolling 1990s Harlem/Washington Heights: “One square mile, 88 homicides in a year.” [26:19]
- Cops and criminals had a different rapport: “They knew we had a job to do, we knew who they were. Just don’t do it in front of us.” [28:16]
- The cycle of poverty, environment, and “destiny” in crime: “Some people are just destined to fall into that because of who their bigger influences were.” [30:16]
On Cynicism and Environment [30:45–34:12]
- “I don’t think anyone’s born evil or born bad... people get put in an environment and then have decisions to make.” — Julian [30:45]

6. Education & Societal Change

Breaking Generational Cycles [34:12–41:22]
- Tom argues the fix starts with schools and afterschool programs; kids need to find their unique interests, not just sports [34:12–38:15].
- Frustration at wasted potential and social/political inertia: “Kids get ignored. Because why? They're easy to ignore. Because they don't speak up.” — Tom [38:18]

7. Trauma, Violence & Coping

Coping with the Job [47:05–63:11]
- Vivid shootout in 1993: “Everything you see in movies about time slowing down is true.” [50:43–52:01]
- Not dealing with trauma consciously at the time, but “haunted” by sleep nightmares: “My gun never worked in my nightmares.” [59:04–59:48]
- Outlet was family, sports, and coaching: “You need an outlet. You need a release from this madness.” [60:52]
Compartmentalizing Trauma [89:52–91:22]
- “That hour plus ride home... kind of set it in motion of getting it out of my head before I got home.” [89:52]
- Family support, particularly his wife, was critical: “If I didn't have that outlet of her, it helps. She's a guidance counselor. That helps.” [91:01]

8. Transition to Detective & Anti-Crime Work

Unit Work & Undercover Realities [45:14–82:27]
- Anti-crime meant plainclothes, high-risk calls, frequent shootings (gun run protocols, livery cab stings).
- Undercover skillset: Authenticity trumps acting; best use their real first name [78:07–80:08].

9. Account of Jeffrey Epstein, Brainwashing, and Abuse [99:13–111:22]

Reflection on investigators processing Epstein estate evidence; suicides in the aftermath.
Guest Lisa Phillips’ account: “He’s one of probably the most maniacal brainwashing people of our time.” [104:11]
On why victims didn’t realize at first: “There was a reason... every party, every person, every time. It all meant something.” [109:05]
Tom’s anger at elite protection: “Both sides will yell, the opposite. And yet, there they are.” [126:49]

10. 9/11 Ground Zero: The NYPD Response

Personal Account, Chaos, Trauma [128:31–142:20]
- On 9/11, Tom was off duty; quickly mobilized and navigated a blocked city to arrive at Ground Zero—“Wildest scene you could ever imagine. Looked fake.” [131:42]
- Vivid description of chaos, rumors, processing trauma, and the scale of the aftermath—both at the site and at the Staten Island landfill.
- “You couldn't have thought of this on your worst day... There was a point in time where you get angry, mad, sad, upset, back to angry.” [140:12]
Failures of Inter-Agency Coordination [143:42–149:15]
- Breakdown in FBI/CIA info sharing, visa lapses were catastrophic: “It would have been easy... Cars are registered in their names. They didn’t hide a thing.” [147:52]

11. Joint Terrorism Task Force—Life as an NYPD Terror Detective [153:30–175:23]

Post-9/11, Tom became one of only a handful to join the Joint Terrorism Task Force.
“Your job was to make sure that day didn’t happen again.” [156:10]
International collaboration: “We were still all NYPD detectives, but given federal status under the marshals.” [161:02]
Operating overseas: “If you went to Jersey for a day, that was a good day... now you’re getting on a plane, going overseas, briefing an ambassador.” [162:36]
Non-stop stress: “You had to be on top of your game. You couldn’t have a bad day.” [159:44]
On sourcework and dealing with foreign partners: “I didn’t change a thing. I never made something out to be more than it was... Humans are humans.” [166:56]
On the adrenaline: “I never stop. I wouldn’t eat. I wouldn’t sleep. I had this vision of the bad guy sitting on his couch... I had that absolute vision in my head and that used to get me, man.” [179:11]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

“You’re not allowed to lose a fight under any circumstances.” — Tom Smith [02:30]
“Cops and criminals, you had a relationship. It was very odd. They knew we had a job to do; we knew who they were. Just don’t do it in front of us.” — Tom Smith [28:16]
“You can’t unsee stuff.” — Tom Smith [89:45]
“My gun never worked in my nightmares.” — Tom Smith [59:04]
“He’s one of probably the most maniacal brainwashing people of our time.” — Tom Smith, on Jeffrey Epstein [104:11]
“Your job was to make sure that day didn’t happen again.” — Tom Smith, on joining JTTF [156:10]
“I never made... a case out to be more than it was. It’s a case. It’s a bad guy. We’ve got to stop him from doing this, just like I would stop a guy from killing a family in the Bronx.” — Tom Smith [167:28]
“You enjoy the rush of the chase... Adrenaline junkie to the end. Absolutely.” — Julian & Tom [180:17]
“It’s like walking forwards for 30 years and then someone telling you, you got to walk backwards.” — Tom Smith, on retirement [180:29]
“I’d do it again tomorrow.” — Tom Smith [181:17]

Timestamps for Important Segments

[01:24–05:28] — Policing Then and Now; NY Crime History
[14:40–18:32] — Interrogation Methods & Criminal Psychology
[26:19–30:45] — Policing Washington Heights 1990s: Crime, Community, Cynicism
[34:12–41:22] — Societal Change, Education Reform, Cyclical Poverty Solutions
[47:19–54:26] — 1993 Supermarket Shootout Story
[58:11–62:53] — Trauma, Nightmares, Coping
[89:52–91:22] — Trauma Compartmentalization & Family Support
[99:13–111:22] — Epstein, Survivor Testimony, Brainwashing
[128:31–142:20] — September 11th, Ground Zero, Processing Trauma
[143:42–149:15] — Inter-Agency Failures, 9/11 Could’ve Been Prevented
[153:30–175:23] — Joint Terrorism Task Force Work, Global Investigations, Burnout, Retirement

Language & Tone

The episode is marked by Tom’s humility, directness, and NYPD gallows humor.
Julian is probing, candid, and respectful, creating a conversational, deeply human tone.
Exchanges are honest, occasionally irreverent, but always underpinned by respect for the gravity of the topics.

Further Links

Gold Shield Show: Tom’s podcast for law enforcement stories
IMPACT Product: Alternative to pepper spray (carryimpact.com)
Episode Description Link

Summary prepared for listeners and non-listeners alike—delivering the full weight, color, and lessons from an extraordinary career and a city gripped by the margins of history.