You've Got To Feel It to Heal It - Dr. Dori Gatter

Summary

Podcast Summary: Just A Moment – “You’ve Got To Feel It to Heal It” with Dr. Dorie Gatter
Host: Brant Menswar | Guest: Dr. Dorie Gatter | Date: October 20, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This powerful episode uncovers the pivotal and life-altering moments that shaped Dr. Dorie Gatter—a psychotherapist, relationship expert, and entrepreneur—into who she is today. Through an emotional, open conversation with host Brant Menswar, Dr. Gatter reflects on her tumultuous upbringing, her rock-bottom moment, and how vulnerability and connection became the foundation for her healing and future success. The discussion explores generational differences in resilience, the purpose and process of therapy, and trauma’s imprint on the body—culminating in actionable wisdom for anyone seeking to break cycles of pain or help others do the same.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood Struggles and Early Defining Moment

• Dr. Gatter describes growing up in poverty and dysfunction in West Hartford, CT, feeling “different” due to her family circumstances ([01:07]).
• She shares feeling isolated from her peers, shopping only at consignment stores, and developing a unique identity out of necessity—ironically being voted “most sophisticated” ([01:07–02:12]).
• The emotional neglect and lack of support in her household, compounded by her parents’ depression and divorce, led to academic and emotional struggles ([02:23]).
• A critical event: choosing to quit high school after her guidance counselor gave her an ultimatum, feeling unsupported and called “a loser” by her father ([02:23–04:54]).

“My dad…said, ‘You’re just going to end up working at McDonald’s the rest of your life. You’re a loser.’ I could feel the part of me that believed it, and I could feel another part of my spirit that didn’t.”
— Dr. Dorie Gatter [04:08]

2. Rock Bottom and the Transforming Power of Connection

• Dr. Gatter is kicked out of her mother’s house during parental divorce chaos, landing unexpectedly with her aunt (a therapist) and her aunt’s boyfriend ([05:07]).
• This became a turning point: experiencing “unconditional love with boundaries” and receiving mentorship from her aunt and uncle, who included her in their therapy institute ([05:07–07:45]).
• They encouraged her to take small steps to rebuild her confidence, including applying to college—supporting her through panic attacks and the entire process ([07:45]).

“Not realizing at the time that getting kicked out of the house was the greatest thing that could happen to me. That was a gift.”
— Dr. Dorie Gatter [08:53]

3. Healing, Resilience, and Generational Differences

• Dr. Gatter addresses her ongoing battle with self-worth and the internal motivation that pushed her forward, despite feeling she never fit in ([08:09]).
• She and Brant discuss contrasts between Gen X, who “pulled themselves up by their bootstraps,” and younger generations who may lack these opportunities due to more protective parenting ([11:44–15:26]).
• They both reflect on formative tough-love childhood experiences: Brant’s sports anecdotes underline how previous generations normalized hardship and failure ([14:05–17:11]).

“Kids today don’t have that same kind of motivation…Part of it is because they never have had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps…What gave me motivation is because I knew if I didn’t do it, nobody else would.”
— Dr. Dorie Gatter [08:43]

4. The Purpose and True Nature of Therapy

• Dr. Gatter asserts that real healing requires support (“Get a really good therapist. You can’t do it by yourself.”) ([18:03]).
• She educates Brant (and listeners) about how trauma and pain reside at the cellular level, and that talking about these experiences initially makes you feel worse because it brings pain to the surface—but that’s necessary for healing ([18:48–20:00]).
• Brant has a breakthrough as Dr. Gatter explains that “you have to feel it to heal it”—reframing how he views therapy, especially as someone who lost his child ([18:33–20:22]).

“All of the pain…that we’ve gone through live inside of our body on a cellular level…when you start to talk about it, you are releasing the particles of those wounds and that pain from the cells in your body…You have to feel it to heal it.”
— Dr. Dorie Gatter [18:48–19:25]

“You just made more sense in one sentence than I’ve ever had talking to anybody about therapy.”
— Brant Menswar [19:25]

5. Stigma and Acceptance of Therapy

• Dr. Gatter shares being sent to her “crazy Aunt Naomi” (a therapist) and how the stigma attached to emotional discussion shifted once she experienced genuine connection and acceptance ([21:14–22:09]).
• She underscores the importance of continuous self-work, stating, “If you’re a good therapist, you go to therapy, you gotta stay ahead of your clients” ([22:28–22:53]).

6. Missed Moments and Growth Through Pain

• Reflecting on her “missed moment,” Dr. Gatter discusses a destructive relationship she wishes she had left earlier, but recognizes she needed that experience for her growth ([23:24–24:13]).
• She emphasizes the necessity of moving from a victim mindset to seeking the message and growth opportunity in each experience ([24:15]).

“We can spend time…on the victim side of it…[but] at a certain point that no longer serves you. Then you need to ask, what is the message and the growth opportunity here for me that I need to get out of this experience?”
— Dr. Dorie Gatter [24:15–25:02]

7. The Non-Linear Nature of Healing

• Healing, Dr. Gatter insists, is not linear; one must “hold both at the same time”—feelings of hurt and the search for meaning ([25:49–26:24]).
• She outlines that progress requires emotional safety, support, and connection, both internal and external ([26:23–27:15]).

8. Why Do People Stay in Harmful Environments? (Bonding through Suffering)

• They examine why people remain in abusive relationships: familiarity from childhood, comfort in known patterns, and bonding through suffering ([27:15–29:23]).
• Brant shares research showing that “connection” is the top shared human value, with suffering as a powerful (though unhealthy) form of connection in organizations and relationships ([28:00–29:23]).

“Suffering is such a powerful form of connection that even though we suffer, there is some weird comfort in the suffering, right?”
— Brant Menswar [29:15]

9. Life in Crisis Becomes the Norm

• Brant reflects on the years spent parenting a gravely ill child, and how living in constant crisis becomes a default state—one people may inadvertently seek out once the crisis has passed ([29:56–31:27]).
• Dr. Gatter explains how the body becomes addicted to crisis as a source of energy; healing involves adjusting one’s internal chemistry ([30:21–30:42]).

10. Impact and Next Steps

• Brant expresses deep gratitude to Dr. Gatter for facilitating a profound personal breakthrough, citing this as the first time he’s opened up on his trauma ([31:36–32:34]).
• For listeners seeking connection or support, Dr. Gatter can be contacted at DrDorieGatter.com ([33:00]).

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I always felt like I was different. Sometimes I thought different was not a good thing. But I had something — this internal motivation that has supported me. And I honestly don't know where it comes from other than it's my own spirit.”
  — Dr. Dorie Gatter [08:09]

• “You have to feel it to heal it.”
  — Dr. Dorie Gatter [19:20]

• “You just made more sense in one sentence than I've ever had talking to anybody about therapy.”
  — Brant Menswar [19:25]

• “If you’re a good therapist, you go to therapy, you gotta stay ahead of your clients.”
  — Dr. Dorie Gatter [22:47]

• “We never 100% heal from everything. We’re always working on deeper layers. I still go to therapy; it’s part of keeping my emotional health.”
  — Dr. Dorie Gatter [22:28]

• “We can spend time on the victim side… and that’s important to do… At a certain point, that no longer serves you. Then you need to ask, what is the message and the growth opportunity here?”
  — Dr. Dorie Gatter [24:15–25:02]

• “Healing isn’t linear...can I keep holding both until the weights shift and one is stronger than the other?”
  — Dr. Dorie Gatter [25:49–26:24]

---

Important Timestamps

• Dr. Gatter’s upbringing & poverty: [01:07–02:23]
• High school crisis & leaving home: [02:23–05:07]
• Mentorship and acceptance with aunt: [05:07–07:45]
• Breakthrough: Getting kicked out as a “gift”: [08:09]
• Generational differences in resilience: [11:44–15:26]
• Explanation of therapy and “feel it to heal it”: [18:33–20:00]
• Changing perceptions of therapy: [21:14–22:47]
• Reflections on missed moments: [23:24–24:13]
• Non-linear healing: [25:49–26:24]
• Bonding through suffering: [28:00–29:23]
• Addiction to crisis: [29:56–30:42]
• Brant’s personal breakthrough and gratitude: [31:36–32:34]
• Contact info: [33:00]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a gripping, deeply empathetic exploration of how the worst moments in life can become unexpected catalysts for growth and healing. Dr. Gatter and Brant Menswar together break down the stigma of therapy, highlight the importance of supportive connections, and give clear, compassionate guidance for anyone navigating pain, crisis, or a yearning for wholeness. The message resounds: “You have to feel it to heal it.”

For more inspiration, connection, and resources, visit Dr. Dorie Gatter at DrDorieGatter.com or check out future episodes of “Just A Moment.”

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Brant Menzoir and welcome to my show Just a moment. As a former world touring musician turned keynote speaker and author, I've experienced my share of life altering moments that have both broken me and propelled me forward. How you leverage those moments or push through them will define your destiny. Each week on my show, I I'll provide tools on how to maximize those moments as well as interview some of the most successful entrepreneurs, entertainers and athletes on how the power of a single moment changed their life. Join me to learn how to change what's possible for your life. It'll take just a moment. Today's guest is Dr. Dorie Gatter, a psychotherapist, relationship expert and entrepreneur who's transforming the way we see human connection today. Her moment delves into the ways you can make your vulnerable moments your launchpad. Paired with a revolutionary discussion around the purpose of therapy in the cycles of crisis, this is her moment.

[B]

Hi, I am Dr. Dorie Gatter and this is my moment. I grew up in West Hartford, Connecticut, which is a small suburb about two hours outside of New York and Boston. We were in a little apartment. I grew up very poor, like poor. We didn't have furniture. Poor people would come over and say, oh, did you just move in because there's no furniture. My mom was a stay at home mom for a while and my dad had intermittent jobs. They were both depressed people. He was in and out of work a lot, which made a lot of strain on the family. It was a very dysfunctional household in those days. In West Hartford, at least the parents would give their kids credit cards to go shopping at the mall. I certainly didn't have that. And so I'd go with my friends, but I couldn't buy anything. So I always felt different. One of the things that led me to, because we would shop at consignment stores, we couldn't shop at the regular stores, is I would come up with my own way of dressing that was different than what everybody else was because I couldn't do what they were doing. Interestingly enough, I was voted most sophisticated.

[A]

Despite Dori's efforts to make the best of her situation, she struggled to reconcile the normal life she observed her peers living with her own turbulent childhood.

[B]

I was curious about a lot of things. I was curious since I would see in other parts of our family, cousins and aunts and uncles, I could see what normal families looked like. And I would always hope that our family could do normal. We could never do normal. And so I knew normal existed better existed and I had this feeling inside of me where I knew I wanted that, but I didn't see a way to get that. I could feel this ceiling of my own life because I could see my parents ceiling. But I had the feeling of, I know I can't be like them or I won't survive. But I didn't know what else that meant that I could do. I was hoping I would just survive. I didn't have hopes or dreams because I wanted whatever normal was. I wanted to be able to live and have furniture. I wanted to be able to live and not worry about could we have enough food that we wanted or could I go and buy a shirt I wanted. I remember my very first paycheck ever. I went and bought a shirt and I was like the happiest a kid could ever be. My hopes and dreams were very little at that time because I just didn't see a way out out of that other than I needed or wanted normal. I was a really good student. High school ish. Because my parents were going through a very difficult time. Difficult divorce. Emotionally. I started having a difficult time and my grades started going down. I actually didn't get through high school. I got called into the guidance counselor. And the guidance counselor in those days, they didn't know anything about emotional anything. It was, you're either doing well, you're not doing well, or suck it up and figure it out. There was no, hey, what's going on with you emotionally. So my grades started going down. The guidance counselor said, you've got two choices. Get your grades up, suck it up, or you're going to special ed because you got an issue. He said that you got two options. And I said, I take option number three. And he said, I didn't give you three. I said, I'm taking three. I quit my junior year. I quit high school and I decided I would go to night school and go to work instead, much to my family's dismay. My dad, at that point, they were in the middle of divorce, said, you're just going to end up working at McDonald's the rest of your life. You're a loser. I could feel the part of me that believed it, and I could feel another part of my spirit that didn't believe it. I knew that I was going to do something. I just didn't know what it was.

[A]

Dory's moment came like a punch to the gut, completely out of the blue, striking her where she was most vulnerable. But little did she know that her lowest low would lead her out of.

[B]

Rock Bottom at that point I was not getting along with my sister. We're fighting, of course it's a display of whatever's going on in the household from the divorce. Again, I don't know this at the time. We're just being told we're being a nuisance. And I got kicked out of the house my dad had left. My mom was over the edge with the divorce and couldn't handle fighting children. So she called her sister, my aunt and her then boyfriend, they weren't even married and said, come get her, I can't take it anymore. At the time I didn't know what was going to happen. All of this was not something they had expected. They expected me to come for a weekend, that everything would die down and I'd go back home. They had no expectation that I was there for good. There was a part of me that said I am on my own, like these people may help me, but really I'm on my own and I have got to figure out how to survive on my own. There is no support in this world for me. And yes, at first I felt okay, I have to be careful because if I'm kicked out of here, where the hell am I going? They showed me unconditional love with boundaries, which was good and needed, but yes, unconditional love. They really gave me the connection and support of we know how bad it is over there and whatever you're going through and whatever you're acting out, we know it's because of what you've been through. And they sent me to therapy. They're lovely, incredible people. They are also therapists and were my mentors and came to be like my parents and amazing, completely amazing. They really knew what to do with me, thank God. And I grew a ton under their mentorship. They started having me work at the front desk at the office and so they really familiarized me with the institute that they had created that they founded. And so it felt normal to me when I just started being in their world which was incredible. But I had so many self worth issues at that point. Feeling rejected, unwanted, all those things from childhood that I didn't feel like I could go to college, I wasn't smart enough and they said just apply, let's take it one step at a time. The thing and I applied to Leslie in Cambridge, Massachusetts and then I had to go up for the interview and I couldn't do it and I was having a panic attack and they drove me up there and therapatized me the whole way up. They were There every step of the way.

[A]

With her aunt's unexpected role as a mentor in her life, her Dori found the acceptance and structure that helped her move on from and build upon her lowest moment. The next years were spent reconstructing her confidence and battling the internal voices and abandonment wounds that threatened to hold her back, despite the stacked odds she would ultimately triumph.

[B]

That was the voice that I was always working on in therapy, the core wound of not being good enough, which was, if you're getting kicked out of the house and things like this, it kind of solidifies that belief in yourself, being rejected by your parents and things like that. I'm amazed that I even tried to do some of these things with that belief. I always felt like I was different. Sometimes I thought different was not a good thing. But I had something that I always have had this internal motivation that has supported me. And I honestly don't know where it comes from other than it's my own spirit. Kids today don't have that same kind of motivation. And part of it is because they never have had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Us as parents of today's generation made it too easy for them. And part of what gave me motivation is because I knew if I didn't do it, nobody else would. What feels like the lowest moment of my life, getting kicked out of my home, going someplace where I feel like I'm a guest my whole life, going, oh, shit, I'm on my own as a teenager with no money and no skills, what the hell am I going to do? I remember having the thought, maybe it would just be easier to lie down and die. Not that I had thought to kill myself, but I was like, if I laid down right now and I died, that would be okay. I just wanted out of the pain. I did not see a future. Not realizing at the time that getting kicked out of the house was the greatest thing that could happen to me. That was a gift.

[A]

Feeling lost in the noise of social media, Inspo cuts through the clutter, connecting you directly with real insights from real experts and industry leaders. It's a new social network dedicated to knowledge sharing, industry insights and thought leadership. Get the latest from top minds in your field or build your own thought leadership portfolio on inspo, already trusted by thousands of professionals worldwide. Be part of the conversation and download Inspo Experts today on the App store or visit www.inspo.expert. Dr. Dorie, thank you so much for joining us on Just a moment. It's great to have you here.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks for Having me.

[A]

I have so much I want to talk to you about. You've just revealed this moment. You're a teenager, you get kicked out of the house. There's a hornet's nest going on of divorce happening around you. Honest. God, there's so many things that, that you're having to deal with at this moment. You say that it's a gift. First, I guess my question is why do you think it was a gift? And secondly, how soon did you come to the realization that it might have.

[B]

Been a gift that didn't come for a while?

[A]

Yeah, I believe that. Yes, absolutely. So what is it looking back now that makes you realize it was a gift?

[B]

It was a gift because if I had stayed in that household, I would have never probably gone to college, I would never have gone to therapy, I would never have the life that I have now. I would probably have a life that looked much like my parents, which was very poor, very lack minded, depressed. It would have been a very different life had I stayed.

[A]

Yeah, I want to go back for a minute to you talking about kids and not allowing them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps because I have a very strong opinion about this that I'd love to talk to a therapist about. And just so you know, you are the only therapist I've ever talked to. So let's get that straight across. I have many people in my life who will tell you that I need to be talking to you much more than this interview. But the idea for me, Gen X, we come up children of the 80s and we were forced to do things just because that's what life looked like. We didn't have the digital distractions of today.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We didn't have cell phones, we didn't have video games were just starting to come out going back to Early Commodore 64 and all of these sort of computers weren't even really a thing. So you had to go out and make believe to find and entertain yourself. And oftentimes when you're forced to do those things, you fail at what you're doing. And you the gift of failure for me is you learn not just maybe how to do something differently and so that you might succeed again the next time it happens. But you learn emotionally what it feels like to lose. Yes. And I think today, looking at Gen Zs firmly into the workforce now. Yes, A lot of the challenges of the corporations that I speak with and the, the CEOs that I coach, they don't quite get that this generation, for the most part they've Never been taught how to lose. They don't know how to deal with the feelings of not winning or not succeeding. Because when you get a participation trophy and you don't have to win, they just expect that, hey, I show up every day. I don't care about the quality of work. I show up, I do my job, where's my raise? Yeah, there's not a thought process of performance based anything because they've never had to truly perform in the ways that we had to growing up. I would love to know what you feel about that scenario of not being able to allow these kids to pick themselves up from their bootstraps.

[B]

It came out of our day. There was the other direction of you're cold, too bad, get a sweater, you're hungry, wait till dinner. There was not this catering to your every need. And so it was one direction. And then, yes, we've raised these children where you get a call from school, they're cold and you rush out and bring them a jacket instead of you didn't bring your jacket, too bad, now you'll remember next time. And so we went the other direction thinking that was good to really be emotionally taking care of them. It was done from a good place, a good hearted place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we didn't know that we would be raising children that then couldn't really take care of themselves in the same way. Expected to be catered to and taken care of. Why would I have to do this or that when it's been done for me? You're seeing in corporations, they don't understand a deadline is a deadline.

[A]

Yes, it's.

[B]

I had a hard time, so you should understand and I should get more time. Yes, that's what they've grown up getting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so for us to now expect them to work like we did is not going to work. Yeah, it doesn't work. We can't really blame them because we've.

[A]

Created it and we just assume that they should learn. I have this vivid memory of playing Babe Ruth baseball and I was obsessed with baseball as a kid and that was going to be my future. I was going to play pros and I was on that path and I got hurt and so I had to pivot. But back when I was a teenager, I think I was 13 years old and I was playing for this really well known coach in the local area who had coached for decades and decades and he's all these championship teams, but he was a gruffy guy. Always had chew in his mouth, always two word answers like it was just that Was it? He was a gruff. And I, I remember going to him one practice and I said, hey, coach, my elbow hurts and I don't know if I should keep throwing. And he said, what? I said, my elbow hurts, I don't know if I should keep throwing. He goes, let me see your arm. And I gave him my arm. And he literally spit a thing of chew onto my elbow and rubbed it into my elbow and then slapped me on the ass and went, you're good back out there, right? Like today he'd go to jail for abuse, right? But that was what life looked like. I can remember playing soccer as a freshman in high school and depending upon how well you did during the practice, at the end of practice, you lined up in the goal, ass out, bent over, and the team took shots at you. That was your punishment. If you did not perform well during practice again today, that would never happen. But for us growing up in that.

[B]

Era, it was normal. In college, my dance teacher would only hit the dancers that she thought were really good. That could need improvement.

[A]

Coming back again to your moment.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You came from this environment that has got you questioning everything, questioning your very self worth. For the people listening right now who may find themselves in a similar environment, whether they are a young adult who feels like they're being stifled a little bit or maybe they're in a marriage, that they're feeling repressed in some way, not being allowed to be themselves, what is your advice to somebody facing this type of scenario and what is your advice to them to get through this?

[B]

Couple things. One is get a really good therapist. You can't do it by yourself.

[A]

So let's talk about that for a second because. And I'm just going to be 100% honest with you and transparent. Right. I believe that therapy is important and can help people. I really do. I don't feel that way for myself. And I'm sure you've dealt with people who feel this way. For me, I just don't. Talking about something makes me feel worse, not better.

[B]

And it does. And it's supposed to.

[A]

I don't understand that. I don't know why anyone would say yes. So let's just talk about it. If it's supposed to make you feel bad, do you just talk about it until you don't feel bad?

[B]

So it's not just talking. Okay, here's the thing. All of the pain or whatever wounds or trauma that we've gone through live inside of our body on a cellular level. And it's in the tension pattern of Our bodies. Okay. We can try and not think about it, come off from it, distract from it, but it is there. It lives inside our bodies. Now when you start to talk about it, you are releasing the particles of those wounds and that pain from the cells in your body. So you will feel it. That's the healing process. You have to feel it to heal it. Just.

[A]

Jesus Christ. Okay, you just made more sense in one sentence than I've ever had talking to anybody about therapy. Because in it. In my head, it's about feeling better mentally. It's not anything to do with. I know obviously stress and stuff can cause your body. Yes. But I don't think of therapy as. As a way to release at a cellular level.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The stuff your body is holding on. Forget about your brain, your body is holding on to.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

All right. I have to come to terms with the fact that you just changed my whole freaking attitude towards therapy, because I just. Listen, I lost my oldest son to. To cancer and Covid. I know I have a significant amount of ptsd. And all the things that come with losing a child know it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I come from the generation of. You push it down so that it doesn't come up in the minute it comes up. It's not good, but you just learned to keep it down. And that's not. I don't look at that as bad. I look at it as. That's just the generation that we come from. The fact that at the time that you get kicked out of the house, you go to live with two therapists.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is a godsend in so many ways. Because back then, even therapy was like, what? What are you talking about? What's the matter with you? Why would you go talk to. Are you're weak? Are you weak? Can you not handle it yourself at that time? That's the aura of therapy. Did you have that when they first started talking to you? Were you like, get the out of here. I don't want to talk to you. Or were you open to that sort of thought?

[B]

See, here's the thing. Growing up, my Aunt Naomi. I'll name her that. I went to go live with the rest of the family. My mother and the rest of the family would call her. She was a therapist and talk about emotions. They would call her crazy Auntie Naomi.

[A]

Of course they would. Right? Yes.

[B]

She's the only one in the family that would talk about emotions. And so here I am, going to live with crazy Auntie Naomi. There was some part of me that was in my old family of Origin thinking of, oh, God. Going to live with crazy Auntie Naomi. And then there was another part of me where, when I spent time with her alone, when she would take me out sometimes for a birthday or whatever, how she would talk to me like a real person and connect with me on a deeper level.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was the most amazing experience I ever had.

[A]

Yeah. That she treated you like an equal. Right.

[B]

Like a real person.

[A]

Yeah. Looking back at that point of your life, I'm curious, how much does that affect you today? Do you get reminded of that when you talk to patients that are dealing with similar struggles? Does that send you back to that point in your life to have to re. Deal with some of that stuff?

[B]

Here's the thing. We never 100% heal from everything. We're always working on deeper layers. I still go to therapy. It's part of eating right, exercising, whatever, keeping my emotional health. So that's my belief. And I think if you're a good therapist, you go to therapy, you gotta stay ahead of your clients.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. I talk to coaches who say, if you're a coach and you're not being coached, nobody should trust you.

[B]

That's right. Exactly. Yes, exactly. So when I'm working with clients who. Who may trigger a feeling inside of me, that's a gift because it's showing me my next step of my own growth.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk for a second. You know what we like to talk about a moment. Maybe you'd like to go back and revisit again and see if, knowing what you know now, with all of the experiences that you've had in your life, would you perhaps approach something differently?

[B]

I think everybody probably thinks, geez, if I could go back in time, would I do that differently? And I think the biggest one in my life that I've had that thought about was a previous serious relationship that was very. Not healthy, destructive for me. And most people would say, I think, yeah, jeez, if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have gotten into that relationship or I would have ended it earlier. And the truth is, that's the one thing that I've asked myself about. And I say, no, actually, I needed it. I needed it for my growth. I stayed in it for the amount of time I needed to for my growth. I went through everything because it was triggering things from my childhood. I didn't know it then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I knew it after.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I needed every piece of that growth to get myself back. So at this point, looking back, I can say I'm grateful for what I learned. Here's the thing, and this goes for everything we've gone through. We can spend time and it's important to feeling our feelings on the victim side of it. Okay? And that's important to do because you need that support and that connection and that healing at a certain point that no longer serves you. And then you need to ask what is the message and the growth opportunity here for me that I need to get out of this experience? And that is the only way forward in your life.

[A]

That's powerful. I guess my question is I know there are people who are in scenarios right now who are hurting and they're struggling and they've had enough. Their question is, why am I still suffering? Why am I still here? How do you know when you've reached that crossroads of victim mindset to having to make a choice to get yourself out? How do you know when you've learned enough? How do we know when we're in a scenario where we are? We've learned enough from the victimization that now we can move forward with a new choice, with a new plan, with a new something to get us to that next stage of our life where maybe we can find some healing and some forward progress.

[B]

Yeah, here's the thing. Healing isn't linear.

[A]

All right? Now you really ruined everything for me because I tell all the time my brain, everything is linear for me. When I write a book, I write it linearly. I can't just write a chapter. Ho hum. That's going to be somewhere down the end. I have to start at the beginning and work my way through because that's how my brain goes, processes things. So for the linear thinkers, how the hell does that work?

[B]

Here's how it works. Let me try for a linear thinker. I can hold both at the same time. It's not one or the other.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

I can feel my feelings about how I was hurt and not a but. And I can ask myself, what's the message of why this is important for me? Can I hold both at the same time and can I keep holding both until the weights shift and one is stronger than the other? It is different for everybody in every scenario and it depends on a few different things. Safety, connection and support. You have to have enough internal and external safety for yourself. Internal, most importantly, emotional safety, emotional support and connection. Can't do it by yourself in a silo. This isn't sucking it up by your bootstraps exercise. Yeah, and once you have enough safety, support and connection, your system will head you There, you don't need to do it. It'll head you there on its own.

[A]

So I go to this in my brain. I go to this place where there's so many women in battered scenarios that are awful, but yet they choose to stay. I would assume the fear of making a different choice and trying to get out of maybe what might happen to them if they tried something like that. Is that what offsets the balance?

[B]

It's a little trickier what you're talking about in a real true abusive relationship, because one, there has to be abuse in the childhood that matches it. So it's a scenario they're used to and they know how it goes. So they're already conditioned for that kind of relationship. Your system recognizes it, but it doesn't recognize it as something that's not good. It's, oh, this is familiar.

[A]

One of the things that in our studies and the work that we've done with personal values and we've been gathering data for more than four years now, since my first book came out, so we have over half a million data points on personal values. And one of the things that we know is that the number one shared value among all people is connection. And that connection could be connection to somebody else. It could be connection to your God or your faith or whatever that might be, but it's the need to feel connected. It could be nature, it could be whatever it is. But that need, that desire for connection is the number one shared value by a 50% margin to the next closest shared value. So it's that important to us as humans.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

But we know that the two most powerful forms of connection now are shared values and suffering. When we talk to organizations about their company culture, if you're not providing opportunities for people to connect through shared values, they will find opportunities to connect through suffering. That's that water cooler talk, that's the bitching, moaning, complaining that is is a cancer to your corporate culture. Knowing that and now hearing what you just said, suffering is such a powerful form of connection that even though we suffer, there is some weird comfort in the suffering, right?

[B]

That's right. So it's bonding. We call it bonding in therapy talk, the fear family of origin. There is a bonding in that energy. Now, it could be an energy of everybody gets along and great and we talk about wonderful things and that's your connection. Or it could be a bonding of an energy of everybody's complaining and suffering. That's still the energy of the bonding. And so if you grow up and you find a relationship that it's similar bonding to what you grew up in. It will look familiar, feel familiar on an unconscious level, and you will be attracted to it.

[A]

I would assume that living with a child who is sick for so long and in and out of hospitals for nearly a decade, you get used to crisis. Right. Because every day is a, oh, Jesus, if his temperature reaches this much, we got to run to the hospital. Or if this happens, we got to do that. You get so used to living in crisis that when crisis is not there, you seek it out because it's weirdly where you feel most comfortable.

[B]

Yes, that's right. Also, what happens is you start to get your adrenals pumping and your cortisol going off at the wrong time and things like that. And that becomes how you produce energy in your body.

[A]

So you actually need that to continue to feel like you can keep moving, keep going.

[B]

That's now how your body knows how to produce energy.

[A]

You're blowing my mind on so many different things. I'm having, like, so many aha. Understandings of how I felt for the last decade. And why not knowing? Because logically, I know that's a stupid word to use, but logically, you would go, why would anybody do that? Why would anybody choose that? And yet I always said, when Theo was live, as bad as it was, I had in my brain, like, this idea of parents who have lost a child. As hard as that is, there's a finality. And that allows you, in my brain at the time, it allows you to move forward because of the finality of death.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's a different type of pain to wake up every day worrying if today is the day that you lose your child because they are gravely ill.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so I didn't really get it because I would say, gosh, at least they've been able to move forward. I'm still in the hell of wondering what could happen until I lost him. And then I go. I'd give anything to go back to worrying every day because this finality sucks. So I. I have a whole other understanding from what you just said now as to why I might have felt that way. And I think, honest to God, you're helping me just because I've never been able to get myself to have these types of conversations first. Just let me say thank you. I was not expecting to have a type of conversation because anyone that knows me knows I just don't talk about it. So thank you for making me feel comfortable enough and making me understand why we feel the way we do. I can't imagine how many people you're going to help with this episode, and I just. I can't thank you enough.

[B]

I'm honored by what you're saying. Thank you.

[A]

Gosh, it's amazing. For people who want to have a conversation with you, I have a feeling you're going to be even busier than you are, if that's possible after this episode. As popular as this damn podcast is right now, you may have to go out and hire a bunch more people or figure out an AI version of yourself to be able to deal with the demand. How should people reach out to you if they want to have a conversation?

[B]

Easiest way is contact through the website, which is DrDorieGatter.com Fantastic. Yeah.

[A]

Dr. Dorie, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for joining us on Just a Moment and thank you for the impact you're having in the world.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks, Brent.

[A]

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Just a Moment. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast and tell a friend or two about it to help spread the word so everyone can find a moment that inspires them. Don't forget to leave us a review and check us out on the [e-mail] Just a Moment is produced by Natalie Von Rose and Brandt Menzoar. For more inspiring shows like this, visit surroundpodcasts.com.