A (3:19)

Are you happy or you're regretting it? Tell us honestly.

B (3:22)

Oh, no. Yeah. No, listen, I am a sucker for a. A fun time. I'm a sucker for a good conversation. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of podcasts. You know, I. So, yeah, let's. Let's do this. Let's rock and roll.

C (3:39)

You know, I think one of the things we can always talk about for me is and Kat, I think because you do relationships, you know, my show.

B (3:47)

I don't know if you guys read anything about my show in the background.

C (3:50)

Of course we did.

B (3:51)

I was in a very abusive marriage for 15 years, 50 years. And that's how the show started, because when I finally left and my husband died because he became an alcoholic, I had to start my life over from zero. And I mean, you are an attorney. If you heard my story, you would be like, holy. Because I literally lost everything. The courts didn't enforce the will. I lost all my assets, my bank accounts. Like a crazy, crazy story. And that's how I started the show because I just wanted to vent. I didn't think it was going to be a business. I didn't think I was going to have an audience. But I was so, like, lost and, you know, desperate. I was like, I'm going to talk because this is so hard. How do you start over, right? How do you make money? How do you work? How do you just rebuild your life from shambles? And as I started talking about it and building up my show, that's how Cat on the Loose grew, because I started getting messages from people worldwide telling me that they've were going through something similar. So, yeah, unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there going through really tough Relationships right now. And unfortunately, many times, of course, it's the women that leave in shambles because they depend on, on the husbands, you know.

C (5:13)

You know, when my parents got divorced, I was in second grade in Ms. Henry's class at Vista Hills Elementary School in El Paso, Texas. It was a Friday afternoon when the divorce was granted. My mom pulled me as, grabbed my chin and looked me at the face in my, like, pulled my chin up

A (5:31)

to look at her.

C (5:32)

And she's like, Michel, you get an education and you never depend on a man for anything. And that was because my mom learned the hard way. And so the one thing that I, and I'm 7 years old when she told me that it's never left me. And it's for that reason that women oftentimes are the ones that get in these relationships with the financial control and abuse. They end up stuck and then they can't leave because they don't have the financial resources to leave. And then when they do leave, the credit card gets cut off, the debit card gets cut off. They have no access to cash or anything else either not on the bank accounts or somehow the money's been transferred out of the bank accounts and they do, they get stuck. And a lot of them have to get to the point where you'd rather live under a bridge, homeless, or be in a 600 square foot apartment than be in the home that you were at. And the one thing that's amazing about like your story is you're a phoenix. You rose from the ashes and there is nothing more empowering or inspiring to others that gives them hope that you can get there, you can rebuild, you can rise from those ashes. Now, does it take some grit to do it? Absolutely. Does it take some, for lack of a better word, some balls to do it? Absolutely. But we all have it within us to do so. Knowing what I know about Kat, knowing what I know about my situation, and knowing what I know about lots of other high achieving women, why do you think, Kat, that women like us stay too long in these types of relationships?

B (7:22)

A number of reasons, right? I think a big one, at least in my case, and I think a lot of women that listen to my show agree, is because we believe that person is going to change for us. It takes a really long time for us to realize, like, they're not going to change for us. In my case, my husband, I got married really young. So that's another factor. I think when we are really young, we're not that mature. Right. We put up with a lot More can I say? You can say than we do. Like nowadays, I would never put out. Like I meet a guy, if he's a heavy drinker, if he does this or if he does that, I'm like, okay, out the door. But when I was in my 20s and I met my husband, I didn't understand. I had no idea what abuse was. I had no idea what heavy drinking. Then he became, the more money he made, he became a full blown alcoholic. So as the years go by, in my mind I'm like, he loves me, he's gonna change for me. He loves me, he's gonna change for me. So it's a cycle, right? And I think a lot of women are like that because we love and we want our partner to change for us. But of course, the truth is the end of the story is that nobody's gonna change for you or because they love you. They're only gonna change if they want to change. Therefore, if you are in an abusive relationship, like it was my case, if you are in a relationship with an alcohol, what I say, save yourself. And I Hope nobody takes 15 years to get out of it like I did. I always hope people wake up way sooner than I did.

C (8:59)

For sure. Yeah. What was it for you? That was the aha moment where it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

B (9:11)

Yeah. So my biological father died. And I remember we. Because we had multiple residents all over the United States because my husband was very rich. We were at our house in Las Vegas. We were at our mansion in Las Vegas. And it was 7:00am in the, in the morning. And my mom called me and told me, you know, your father died. I didn't have a close relationship with him. However, he was my father. And I remember that day, my husband was sitting by the pool, 7am and he was already drinking and he was already very drunk. And I went to tell him the news and of course I was very sad. Right. Somebody just died. And he totally dismissed. He was like, oh, you know, who cares? He was, he wasn't a nice person anyways, whatever, who cares? And I went to my bedroom and it kind of just literally sank in my head. I'm like, wow, you know, I am with this person that he's so drunk and he's so crazy. He's not going to be here for me. He's not going to give me a hug or anything. So that day I was like, I gotta get out of, you know. And I actually, I gave him the ultimatum. Finally. I was like, either you quit drinking or I'm going to divorce you. And he was like, if I'm not gonna quit drinking, I'm not gonna quit drinking. So. Yeah. And it's such a crazy story that at that point he was. He was such a full blown alcoholic that, you know, that's a whole other episode. Right. But he. He needed medical help in order to stop drinking, and he decided he was going to die drinking. He didn't want to get help. So we did sign the divorce a while after my father passed away, months after he passed away. But right after that, I found out that my husband got very, very sick. Very, very sick. And I actually ended up going back to take care of him for two more years until he died.

C (11:14)

Oh, wow.

B (11:15)

Because he didn't let anybody go anywhere near him. The doctors, the nurses, no one. So I actually ended up going back to this cy. Yeah. For two more years. Yeah.

A (11:28)

You were completely sort of dependent upon him at the time. Right. He basically made it so that you were financially dependent upon him.

C (11:38)

Right.

A (11:38)

He used his money as clout and his control.

B (11:40)

Yeah. So my story is kind of funny, right? Because I always loved working. I started working when I was four years old in TV commercials because my dad was TV producer. When I met my husband, I worked. I did really well for myself. And I always tell women that because, you know, all these girls are like, how do I marry a millionaire? How do I marry? And I'm like, the way you marry millionaires, like have going on in your own life, right. You're much more likely to attract. That's what my husband loved about me because I was so busy. But yes, as we. We started dating and got married, he was very controlling and very jealous. So he cut me off, cut me off, cut me off. Like, it was a huge fight between us every time I wanted to go to work. So, yeah, I was like 90% dependent on his money. And I did help him build his business. La, la, la, la. But I did inherit everything that we built together in 15 years. But everything got taken away from me.

C (12:40)

Everything got taken away from me, you know?

B (12:43)

You know that moment when you're like, okay, I actually need to take better care of myself? I. That was me. Life gets busy, and it's so easy to use that as an excuse and end up eating junk. But I stopped doing that when I found Factor Chef made dietitian approved meals ready in minutes. It's honestly the easiest way I found to stay consistent without sacrificing my time or my sanity. I have to tell you Guys, last week, after a workout, I had the garlic herb chicken with roasted veggies. And I'm not even kidding, it felt like I was eating something from a fancy restaurant. But it actually aligned with my goals of eating well. Everything is made with real high quality ingredients. Lean proteins, colorful veggies, healthy fats, no weird additives, no refined sugar, none of that fake stuff. It's just clean, nourishing food that actually helps you stay on track without overthinking it. And I don't get bored, which is huge for me. They have over 100 rotating meals every week, so it always feels fresh. Whether I'm focusing on high protein, try to be calorie conscious, or just wanting something lighter like a salad. It's all there. And I love that they have options to support different lifestyles like Mediterranean or glp. One support. And honestly, this is the best part. Everything is fresh, never frozen and ready in minutes. No grocery shopping, no cooking, no mess. Because let's be real, if it's complicated, we're not doing it. This is why I use and love Factor and you should too. Head to factor meals.com cat50off k a t50off and use code cat50OFF to get 50 off and free breakfast for a year offer valid only for new Factor customers with cold and qualifying. Renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with Factor.

C (14:28)

What's, what's interesting is those types of individuals seek out successful partners because I think they get more satisfaction out of breaking those successful partners. And so I think you're right. Yeah, you want to find a someone that's a successful man to marry, date, whatever, make yourself successful too, because boy, that'll attract them and may not attract the right ones, but it'll attract some of them because they do. It's. They get some kind of high or fix off of extinguishing your flame. And that's what they do. They spend years.

B (15:04)

That's exactly what happened to me. Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me. Yeah, for sure.

C (15:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. You really do. You lose who you are. You hear enough of you're wrong, you're mistaken, you're crazy, you just don't understand. You know, how many times, how many different ways can someone tell you that you're an idiot is basically what happens throughout the course of the relationship.

B (15:26)

Yeah.

C (15:26)

And boy, can they get creative on how they say that you become a

A (15:29)

champion for so many of your guests. And I've noticed this too in the shows and you also feature so many different people and personalities. Like, what is your process for attracting personalities? Why do they decide, okay, Cat on the Loose is the platform that I want to share my story on because you get things out of people that other shows don't. And we've noticed that throughout the process. Like, you really get people to, like, be vulnerable as well.

C (15:56)

How do you do that?

B (15:57)

I think that they know. And I mean, you, you've been podcasting for a long time, but I think when we book a guest, right, we tell them up front. I mean, they know how the show is, right? They know it's organic. They know it's no bullshit. They know it's not scripted. So once you're entering this non scripted zone, you know, where you're getting yourself into, it's literally an open conversation. So whatever we say is going to be what our audience hears. So I think just getting in there, they kind of like know the vibe of the show. And once they start talking, they're just like, you know, I might as well just go for it. I have had guests in the past that told me, oh, my God, can you take that out? Can you cut that out? Did I really? And I'm like, nope, sorry, it's not gonna happen. You know, if you say something stupid or if you say something you regret later, I mean, I warn you beforehand, but I want to be very, very real with my audience. I literally want the audience to feel. Feel that they're sitting in the living room with us, you know, that we are not bullshitting them.

A (17:05)

I just realized something. Michelle Locke can never do your show. Never ever. Michelle needs 10 filters and then two more just for safety. I gotta be honest with you. So that's why editing is our friend here. But to be fair, Michelle, when it comes to court, is so polished, so professional.

B (17:27)

Yeah.

A (17:27)

So just inspiring. And then now we're here on the podcast, the vibe's a little different. She looks good, she looks polished. She looks great.

B (17:35)

I mean, look, she's an attorney, right? If you go to court in front of a judge, you got to behave right. A certain way. Of course. But I think in a podcast, you should just be able to be yourself, I guess.

C (17:48)

Well, and I do. The problem is I'm a little extra. Like, the version of me in a courtroom is the subdued version of me, which may frighten some of my opposing councils.

A (18:00)

Nothing is offensive. I gotta be honest with you. Nothing is offensive. But let's just talk about the degrees of vulgarity. And I don't know, Kat, how you would rate these things, but you ask if you could curse and say and whatever, and that's literally if you had listened to the raw outtakes from our show. There's a lot of. There's a lot of cursing when it doesn't even belong there, when it's not even appropriate or welcomed. It's just there. So there's nothing.

C (18:25)

It's always welcome. The F word is always welcome. And the F word can be used as a verb. Yeah, a noun. I mean, it can be used as lots of different things. And it's just the tone and tenor in which you use the F word.

A (18:42)

You perfected the silent F word too. Show cat how you treat me generally. So this tends to get cut out. Cat of the show, but I think we should probably keep it in. I think you're right. I think we should just go live with this one and just let me let Michelle's wings fly.

C (18:55)

I will say this, Kat, I am a lot like you. When I started this podcast, it really was therapeutic for me to get out a lot of what I had been through without. And I guess one of the problems is you don't necessarily realize how bad it was until you're on the other side. And then when you got on the other side, you're like, huh. And then you remember stuff that you'd forgotten and forgotten for pretty good reason, and then you go, huh. That probably wasn't good either. But the podcasting, I mean, I know why you did your show. Countless. I mean, it's therapy.

B (19:33)

Yeah.

C (19:33)

It doesn't cost you anything. And we're not the only ones going through it. That's the other part of it is there's so. I mean, it's not unique to just your story. It's not unique just to my story. It's not their both genders that go through it and have to get out and have to rebuild and start over. And I think I've told this to Jake and I've said this on the podcast before. If my story can help just one person, then I've done my job.

B (20:01)

I agree.

A (20:03)

I have a question for both of you. It's obvious why Michelle does podcasting, and she needs constant attention. But, Kat, for you, when you started this. Thanks, Michonne. When you started this. Happy Friday the 13th, by the way. When you started this, like, what really led you to the point where you're like, I'm gonna be vulnerable here? Because that's not easy. You literally laid everything on the line. You decided to throw out all your dirty laundry and say, here I am. Take me or leave me. And got to a point where, you know, you just didn't give a. Basically, you're just like, I'm gonna go out there, I'm gonna share my story. One person can listen. A million per person. A million people can listen. It doesn' what really gave you that sort of gusto to do that?

B (20:48)

I feel in my heart that the more open I am, right, and the more raw and the more honest, the more my audience connects and believes in. In me and the story. And I think it empowers them more. And it's also a way. And I say that over and over and over to my audience nowadays, right? Because now I'm lucky to have a really big audience worldwide. It's a way for women to take their power back. And I'm sure Michelle must know that, because when you are going through an abusive relationship, you know, you lose your voice, you forget who you are. You feel super intimidated. I was called names like, I don't even know if I can repeat here. You know, for 15 years, I was super abused verbally. And so you start believing that that's what you are. You start believing that you are useless. You start believing all those things. So it. In a way, when you do a. And you. You say all those things out loud, not only are happening, helping other women, but, you know, it really empowered me to. To get to where I am today. It took my power back, you know, because everything that people did to me, even when my husband died and all my assets were taken from me, my bank account, everything was taken from me. The judge didn't listen to me. Nobody believed in my story. It took me two years, you know, to prove everything that had happened. Very long story, but. And it was just a way for me to do justice for myself. You know, I think when we speak up, we help other women. And basically, I'm saying, you know, you can speak up as well. You know, this is a space for everyone to just be very open and honest about whatever it is that they're going through. But I don't give a. I always joke like, nobody pays my bills. I started over from zero.

C (22:46)

I love you.

B (22:47)

If somebody doesn't like what they hear, like, you know, I always say there are like 4 million millions of podcasts out there. I go listen to something else. But if I get a message from a woman telling me, thank you, I got out of an abusive marriage because of you, or I did this, or I'm like, you know, I'm doing my job, and it's not Acting. This is why I don't script, I don't edit. I just tell it like it is. And if it resonates with you, if it helps you, amazing. That's all I want.

C (23:14)

Well, but you know, when you get to a certain age, at least for what I've seen with my other fellow professional women, you get to like 45 and you have a. I don't give a f. Switch that kind of flips. And it is the most empowering. Like once you're no longer worried about procreating, right? And you don't have to worry about that nonsense because it's behind you and you get to look forward to just. It's. There's just a shift and man, it just feels fabulous. And I wish I could impart that on some of the younger women. Like you guys just need to worry a whole lot less about stuff.

B (23:55)

Yes, most of it will work its

C (23:57)

way out, work itself out. There's about a solution to everything about. You just gotta figure it out. But there I can't. I look back at how much time I wasted on just worrying about nonsense that just doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things, and then learning that you can't control much. So just worry about what you actually can control, which is not a whole hell of a lot, and then just figure it out from there. I've been now an attorney for almost a quarter of a century, which I can't believe because I used to be. I always remember being one of the young ones, right? And now the young ones come to me for advice on how to handle something and I'm like, well, wait a minute, this is. It just feels weird. It really does. And then I look in the mirror and then I see my, you know, aging neck and how things are changing and going with the way gravity is pulling it. And I guess, yeah, I guess I have earned the stripes. But because I do divorce law in particular, it gives me a pretty unique perspective on relationships. And while I'm never going to say I'm a relationship expert, I sure know how to have them not work because I see how they don't work. And then I also see in connection with that, the abuse of relationships, the red flags for the abusive relationships or the people that come in that are shells of their former selves because they've been in a toxic marriage for so long and they don't even realize that it's. That it's what it's doing to them. People talk about the glow up post either breakup or divorce. You can Always see who the toxic one is by the one that has the immediate glow up. And y', all, the glow up's a thing. It really is. If you look at some of the. And it's men and women, I don't want to say that it's just women that are the ones that are abused because abuse is on both sides of the spectrum. But the glow up that you truly see in the people that escape and find the peace, it is stunning. The difference. I had a friend of mine who was in a long term toxic marriage and she sent me a picture of herself from the day that her husband walked out and left. And this happened two days ago. She sent me this picture. I didn't recognize her like the person that she was that many several years ago when he walked out. I mean, kind of like my situation. I don't know that I would have been alive if I had stayed where I was at. She wouldn't have been either. Just looking at what she looked like back then.

A (26:27)

So do you have stories that you featured and guess you featured that are like shocking to you? Like things like wow, like jaw dropping moments. Is there anything that you want to share that have happened that it's been like, wow? Either I didn't get into podcasting for this or this is exactly why I'm here. Works both ways.

B (26:50)

Well, I've. I've done like now about 300 episodes, so you can imagine, like, I've heard it. All right, Everybody has a story. I've heard all kinds of crazy, but believe it or not, I don't think I ever heard a story as crazy as my own stories from the beginning of the show. And everybody tells me that, Kat, you've

A (27:15)

been very transparent with everything through your podcast. So anybody who you could potentially bring into your life as a remote or potential romantic partner probably could or may do the research, Google you and find out and they can listen to this show so they can find, write a blueprint of all the things you've gone through so they know what to expect and what not to expect and what you're going to put up with and what you're not going to put up with. How has this really altered your dating life?

B (27:43)

It makes it super tough for sure, because so the guy meets me. I mean, there are a lot of components, right, that go into it. First of all, yes, a lot of them go and they listen to the entire show. They get intimidated. So that's always like the. And I. And I don't want to date anybody who's intimidated Anyway, so I want to date, like, a guy who's like, oh, my God, I'm so proud of you. This is amazing. And then, yeah, they're the guys that listen to the show and think they know everything about me, and they think they can handle it. Every guy ever dated in the beginning, they're like, oh, my God, this is amazing. But when they really get into my life, especially the past couple of years, that the show really grew and they see, you know, I. I have a big public presence. Right. On. On social. We. We have to do social media. Right. It's a big part of our job, and we go to events, and a lot of them are like, oh, it's too much for me. And then there is the guy that says, you know, totally misread me. They're like, oh, she talks about sex, dating, relationships. She goes out with all kinds of guys every night. She bangs every guy she sees. And it couldn't be farther from the truth. And then there is always the guy that says, oh, are you gonna talk about me in your podcast? And one guy told me, oh, you're the Taylor Swift of the podcast. I don't want to date you because you do an episode, each episode of all the guys. And this is my answer, by the way. I say, if you're a person with good intentions in any podcast, you don't care that we have a podcast because we're going to say something really good about you. Right. Even if we break up, if you had good intentions, I'm going to say something nice about you. Now, the only people that should be worried about being talked about are the assholes. The. Right. So, you know, it's a good.

C (29:41)

It's real simple. Don't be an. Exactly.

B (29:45)

So if you are. Yeah. Very likely you are going to end up being a really good episode on the show. We are gonna dissect you.

A (29:54)

This is the one thing I do want to say is that this is the thing and the challenges. And I've been in this long enough. You've been. We've both been in this for six years.

B (30:02)

Yeah.

A (30:02)

So knowing and understanding that when you do this, when people find out, they're curious, they're excited if they don't already know, but they're also a little bit concerned. Now, the fact is that I do a stalking podcast that would not be good for someone to be on that and someone that I would be involved with, obviously, from a standpoint of that. But at the same point, Michelle has brought up this before where she wanted to share one of the episodes. And, and she had said this. Can you share one? I'm paraphrasing. That doesn't make me sound crazy. And then I said, well, define crazy, Michelle, because every episode has its tracks and then it has its running off the tracks.

C (30:45)

The B roll.

A (30:46)

The B roll. So I don't know what you define as crazy. You are not crazy in my book. But you are transparent. And you are. You. You get into the weeds when it comes to emotion. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that most people should embrace that. But I also know this. Here's the flip is that a lot of people use that as a way to figure out where your vulnerabilities are. And that's a problem. I do another podcast called Love, Lust, Fear. And a lot of times when people know more about what your sensitivities are, what buttons can they push, they will use that against you. Narcissist playbook.

B (31:20)

But look, this is my take on it, right? You don't want to have a narcissist in your life. You don't want to have like somebody that's going to play you. You don't want to have somebody who is bothered by it. So in a way, I think it's a great filter. It's kind of like being an actor, right? Very few people can date an actor. Very few people can put up with that lifestyle. So I think it's great because we really, at the end of the day, and that was the lesson I learned to do in the show for so long. You just want people around you that are super comfortable with whatever it is that you do. Right. And you find out about who are the players and who are the people that are uncomfortable very quickly. It's like with Michelle, she's a woman with a very strong personality and very powerful career. Very powerful career. So there's a very particular type of man that will date a woman like that that is not intimidated by a kick ass attorney that likes an outspoken woman. Great. That way.

C (32:16)

It's just a very small pool.

B (32:20)

Same for me. It's a very small pool of men that breaks up with, with a woman doing a show about sex, dating, relationships and women and empowerment. So, yeah, great. I think it's better to have a small pool. I think quality always beats quantity in anything in life.

A (32:34)

You need somebody who's going to cherish you, support you, but doesn't have to be the person that you rely on so much that flips that control. Right. You know what I'm saying. And in terms of I'm sure you both as powerful women have a tendency to want to control things in your life. Not in a bad way, but you've had to. Michelle get out of here.

B (32:56)

Michelle.

A (32:57)

You're the control queen.

B (32:58)

Michelle. But I tell you one thing. In my professional life, I'm in control all the time. Yeah. But in my personal life, I'm the exact opposite. I want a man because I want to be vulnerable. I want a guy to go and and make plans and make decisions and take over. Yeah. Because I don't want to be like, you know, in my business. I want the exact opposite in a man. I do not want to control a man. Believe me, the the opposite. Starting a brand can feel really intimidating, right? I know when I launched my body Positivity brand Girly a la mode, I honestly had no idea where to begin. I am so grateful I found Shopify because it's incredibly user friendly and made starting my little business feel simple and fun instead of scary. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US with hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. You can get the world out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And what if I feel stuck? Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. It also helps boost conversions, meaning less cards going abandoned and more sales for you. It's time to turn those what if gifts into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 a month trial today at shopify.comcatkt go to shopify.comcat that's shopify.comk80 and

D (35:05)

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A (35:35)

Isn't. Isn't that hard for you both? Isn't that hard for you both? But let's be fair. I mean, I know, I know. I'm just gonna ask you both because. And I'll tell you why is that? You know the success you have, and you know how strong you are in the workplace, right? You know what kind of power you have, you know what you can do, what you're not doing, what not to waste time with. But how often do those lines get blurred? I know you say you don't want to, but how often does that happen where you're like, let me just plan this trip. Let me just go and shop for this person?

B (36:07)

You know, I. I literally tell you, I don't know, Michelle. I. I literally. My personal life, I am a completely different person. A complete. I turn off the switch and I want a man that's like, this is what, we're gonna have dinner. This is what we're doing. I want a super Taipei guy, like, very, very strong personality, you know, very old school.

C (36:28)

I'm very knuckle dragger.

B (36:30)

I know I would never make a plan for a dude. I'm not gonna make a reservation. I'm not gonna tell you to do. I'm not going to teach you. You better know what you're doing. You better be on top of your game. Because I want to be, like a million percent, like, in my feminine, relaxed side, you know, in my personal life.

C (36:47)

Amen, sister. Listen, I can't tell you how many, like, female attorneys I know. That's the same way we all day long boss things around all day long are in control. I want to come home and be the girl. Like, I don't want to be in my testosterone, man adjacent, like, roll all day long and all night long. I want to come home and someone say, hey, sweetheart, can I rub your feet? I'm like, yes, baby, please.

B (37:14)

Exactly.

A (37:15)

Do you both. I'm so fascinated by this, by the way, about the dynamic and the sort of power between personal and professional. It fascinates me. So humor me for a second. So basically, you both. Do you like when a man knows that you are a powerful woman in the workplace and that's how you're first introduced to a man? Or do you like to just meet a man who doesn't really know much about you but is attracted to you and, you know, whatever traditional sort of chemistry there is going on there. Do you have a preference or and also, what works better for you both?

B (37:50)

I think it's difficult to hide, right? At least in my. Because my work is. You can't public like on. On my. On my dating profile. I don't say that. I do the podcast, by the way, because I own a pr, marketing and branding agency, so I usually. That's what I put there. Like, oh, I do pr, marketing and branding this. But of course, once we talk on the phone, like, we go on a first date or they see my name, they see it. And then I decided I'm not going to hide it because I don't want to waste my time, and I don't want to waste somebody that is time. So with me, it's like you either jump in the fire and you like me with all my projects and everything that I do or you don't. And of course, especially after everything that I've been through, you know, I want a man that is 1 million comfortable with everything that I do. So if you like the show and you can handle it, fantastic. If you can't, I'm not for you, you know, So I don't. I don't try to hide it anymore.

C (38:52)

I completely agree, Kat. I mean, it's. I'm who I am, and you're gonna love me or hate me. There's about zero in between. And I'm okay with that. So why am I gonna waste my time not telling someone who I really am? Because in my, like, you and your professional world, I'm kind of the hbic I am. I'm the boss bitch. I mean, I atst that's the role I am when I'm going to the courtroom. And that's the role my clients expect, too. It's not just. I mean, but it's who I am. But a man's gotta be really okay in their masculinity to deal with a woman like Cat or I. They've gotta be really confident in who they are because I say that because they're gonna have to take a backseat at times, and they're gonna have to be okay with being in the shadows at times, because with what Kat does and with what I do, at some point, we are front and center, and I like being front and center. I'm pretty sure Kat likes being front and center at times, too. And whoever we're with is gonn be okay with, you know, sitting backstage watching Michelle cl.

A (39:58)

Michelle claims to be like, I'm just going to observe from the back row. But I think, Cat, you're pretty well aware and anybody watching now for this new video episode understands that Michelle does need limelight, but she, she also needs that comfrey cozy blanket and the Lifetime movies and the popcorn and just to please somebody, go get me another Mexican Coke. That's her favorite drink.

C (40:18)

My favorite.

B (40:19)

Let me tell you guys something, okay? I really believe, I'm a firm believer that a woman can and should be both. Like I, I discovered this from doing my show and from living an abusive marriage. We can be kick ass business women. We can talk about sex, dating, relationship, anything we want. And we can be fragile, feminine, romantic with our partner. We don't have to choose. You know, there is room and, and a man who is going to be, and by the way, the most. And I always say that because, you know, especially here in Beverly Hills, right, There's all these girls saying, like, oh, I want a guy to be a provider, I want a guy to take care of me. And they do nothing all day. But the fact of the matter is, the most successful man in the world, they love a woman that has a lot going on. They're not intimidated. I always use Jeff Bezos as an example, right? Look who he married. He married like, like this kick ass woman, 56, age appropriate. She has a lot of going on. So I, I have multi millionaire friends here in Beverly Hills and every single one of them is looking for a partner that kicks ass. They, they don't want the little boring girls that, that go to the gym all day and do nothing, you know,

C (41:34)

because what conversation do you have with them when you get home?

B (41:36)

Exactly. Exactly. Well, maybe you have a conversation the first day to the second day, but then you're like, oh, how am I gonna take this girl to a business dinner? How am I gonna take this girl to. Exactly. So there are a lot of men out there that, that want a woman that, you know, has a business, has something going on. But we can have two different personalities, you know, it's totally fine. Yeah.

C (42:00)

And, and there's nothing wrong with it.

A (42:01)

Did we just sort of launch a dating show here? I don't know. It feels very, it feels like we're like trying to figure out and not only dispatch advice, but also just sort of mapping out. I think almost you tried to like set somebody up, their cat in the, in the mix bit, you know, I'm saying, like, you're talking about millionaires talking about this, but, you know, I guess we should next do some like, profiles and things like that, like start to throw this up, do like a video version, like no testimony for People who are online. So, Kat, you said you have a dating profile. What are some of the struggles that you have had out there in the dating world? I know you've talked about this in your podcast, but. And Michelle is very open with her life. Anybody who's listened to that knows this, so.

C (42:43)

Yeah, and I don't, I don't have any dating profiles. I'm afraid to do dating profiles. I.

B (42:49)

Look, I. Obviously my struggles were because I was in such an abusive marriage once I started dating, and I didn't know that at the time.

C (42:59)

Right.

B (42:59)

I kept following the same pattern.

A (43:02)

Yep.

B (43:02)

So I ended up dating narcissists, liars, cheaters. I was always some type of horrible man, man that would yell at me, scream at me. The same shit that my husband used to do to me. Me, that was usually the kind of man that I dated. Because at the time, like, even if you listen to the first episodes of Cat on the Loose, you die of a heart attack. You cringe, you're like, I cannot believe the guy that cheated on me on Valentine's Day. The guy that cheated on me on my birthday. The guy, the craziest narcissist in the world. But now I laugh about it because now I would never date those men. You know what I mean? But. But when you are a victim of abuse, it takes a really long time to rewire your br.

C (43:48)

Brain.

B (43:49)

It's not overnight.

C (43:50)

You.

B (43:50)

It takes a while for you to understand. Wait a minute. It's not okay to be called a useless piece of. It's not okay to be, you know, demeaned by a man. So. But it took me a really long time to get to this great place that I am today. That I know what I want in a partner, what I don't accept in a part. So nowadays if a guy yelled or screamed at me or call me a name, I literally laugh at his face and I, I leave the room, you know, I would never accept this kind of. But, but it's a, it's a process, you know, and that's what I always say in my show. Once you, you, you gotta learn self love and self worth, you got. And that goes for men and women. Right. We gotta know our value. And once you learn that, then everything becomes a lot easier.

A (44:41)

You never really. Michelle, never really dated properly. You understand? This is somebody who came right out of law, like law school and got right into a serious long term.

C (44:50)

Yeah. I met my husband when I was 23. He was 45. He was already in it.

B (44:57)

Same. Very similar to me that's what I'm saying here.

C (45:00)

Your story going, oh, girl, we could be really good friends. Yeah. But met him, I was 23. We got married when I was 25. He was 47. We had our first kid, two, no, within a year of getting married. Had our second kid a couple years later, and then we had our third one a decade later. But yeah, I dated him and started dating him in law school. That was after I'd broken up with another long term relationship. And then I got married. And so I've literally been with that since. Him with him since I was 23 and then got divorced after being with him for 24 years.

B (45:35)

So how long have you been divorced?

C (45:38)

I moved out of my house because I had no choice. He wouldn't leave, so I had to in March of 2024.

B (45:45)

Oh, okay. So it hasn't been a long time. It's two years now.

C (45:48)

Two years. Two years since I moved out. The divorce was granted in August of 2024. So I've been divorced for a year and a year and a half, I guess.

B (45:59)

Yeah. But, you know, this is what I would say to you and everybody out there listening. The. The first step, because nobody knows how to date, the first step is to. You need to open your heart to letting love find you. You know, that's the first step. No, you just gotta say, you know what? I'm gonna give life a chance and love a chance. Because you never know. You could literally meet someone at the grocery store, you could meet someone at an event, you know, but you need to be open to letting love find you. I always say that's the first step because if you're open to it, you might surprise you. You know,

A (46:37)

Michelle is like, kind of like that ice cream, like magic shell, you know, hard on the outside, soft and gooey on the inside.

C (46:46)

But don't tell anyone that.

A (46:48)

The thing is, Michelle's favorite. Michelle's favorite color is red. Her favorite color is red.

B (46:54)

It's funny that I'm wearing black today because look at my nails. I'm always wearing red. Always. Every day. Every day, Every day. It's my favorite color. Same. I think it's a color of passion, right?

C (47:06)

It's a color of power. It's a color of femininity. It's the color of being a woman. Oh, I love red.

B (47:14)

Same.

C (47:14)

I love.

B (47:15)

Girl. Put yourself your hot red outfit on and go shopping, you know. Do you. You live in Dallas, right?

C (47:22)

Austin.

B (47:23)

Austin. Don't they? I know they have fabulous shopping there.

C (47:26)

Yes. Listen, I live in a Great place and I will definitely treat myself.

B (47:31)

I heard the man in. In Texas are really hot and great. No, I have one of my best friends married. Married the guy from Texas.

C (47:38)

So here's what I'm gonna tell you. Texas has some good looking men, I'm not gonna lie. But they do. But most of them can't handle a woman like me.

B (47:48)

Really? Oh, wow. Interesting.

A (47:51)

There's probably a traditional masculine sort of of roles or tropes, I guess you'd say, right, Michelle? Like there's a fantasy of what a Texas man is and then there's the reality of what a Texas man is. And that's a generalization, right? I mean in terms of that like Austin men are different from Dallas men. Dallas men are different from El Paso men.

C (48:10)

And Houston men are different than everyone. I mean it's. And kind of like California. I think every, like San Francisco men are a lot different than Beverly Hills men. Right. So Texas is probably very similar that, that the parts of the state are different. But I just like, I haven't gotten out there. Like I just don't necessarily know that I want to. I was never good at dating to begin with and so I'm like, yeah, I'm good, thanks. Something will just fall into my lap

A (48:40)

that gets me to a very important point. You can't truly love someone until you love yourself. I really believe that. I think that it takes time and it took me many years to figure out how to love myself. Decades in fact. But I think when you get to that point, and this is Michelle, there's a lot of hemming and hawing and I don't think it's outward sort of love and squirming at love. I think it's you accepting yourself. You're getting there. But it's taken a long time and I'm very proud to be on this journey with you for self acceptance.

C (49:10)

Aw, I love you too, Jake. In a very appropriate, non, like, romantic relationship.

A (49:16)

Like, this is not Cat on the Loose. We're gonna edit that out, don't worry.

B (49:21)

Hey, listen, that's totally up to you guys, right, what you edit out?

C (49:25)

Well, no, listen, we, we had dinner in LA at a Vietnamese, no, Thai restaurant and another podcaster joined us who I like very much and she. Jake, you can have this part out. But she turned to Jake and I because Jake and I were doing what we normally do, which is just banter and she's like, are you like.

A (49:44)

No, that was her first intro. It wasn't high. I'm this. I'm this person, who are you? Or whatever, she's like, are you two.

B (49:53)

That's.

C (49:53)

Yeah. I mean, like, I was like, no.

B (49:57)

I don't know if I would ask anything that personally.

C (50:00)

What.

B (50:00)

I would be like, whatever. I don't care.

C (50:02)

She did, like.

A (50:08)

It was a great. Because, Kat, I didn't mention this. It wasn't just Michelle, I and this other podcaster. There was about seven other people at this table.

C (50:16)

Oh, my God.

A (50:19)

And it was not the kind of restaurant that it's, like, so big that it was like, all heads were like, interesting. She brings up a good point there.

C (50:28)

It's the year of the fire horse, and I'm a snake. And so if you know anything about the Chinese zodiac and that, like the year of the snake with the fire horse, I'm supposed to be on fire this year. So I thought, why not start Friday the 13th with the red dress?

A (50:47)

I love that I'm a snail, so I don't know if we can get along.

C (50:53)

So, Kat, let's give you some background on the snail. Jake and I are very much yin and yang. I am a. I do not put my toe into anything. I usually just dive in head first and say, effort. I'll figure it out after I'm in the water. Jake dips his toe in, barely pulls it back out, then contemplates for at least 48 hours what he's going to try and put the toe back in again. And so I have compared Jake to a snail on his last slime and how he makes decisions.

A (51:29)

That is fun to silence, by the way. And because. Because she has so much dating, relationship and professional advice to dispatch that I would love to hear your perspective on the yin and yang of this as business partnership, as friendship, and kind of understanding sort of the ebb and flow of why this magic concoction works so well. And you're seeing it. You're witnessing it. You're a guest into our party. Welcome.

B (51:56)

I think that, you know, if you guys feed off of each other and you have different personalities and you and different strengths, it might be a great mix. You know, sometimes it. It works really well if two hosts are very, very different from each other and different.

C (52:13)

Did you also hear her say Mike, Jake also be. It might also be.

A (52:19)

It was a shake in the voice.

B (52:23)

I look, I just met you, right? Like, it's been five. It's been a minute. So I don't know how well you guys work together. Seems like it's a great chemistry. Seems like you guys are excited about doing this show, right? Jake has been doing a different podcast for a really long time. You know how difficult podcasting is. I think, you know, most people get tangled up and discouraged because they think, oh, you know, I lost to talk, and this is going to be fun. It's going to be easy. It's a sprint, and I think it's more like a marathon. But obviously, you know, you guys are really good at what you do. Michelle is a super successful attorney, so, I mean, you guys have everything that it takes to building up a very successful show, for sure.

C (53:07)

Oh, Cat, we should have you on more often. It's great for the ego.

A (53:10)

She's our hype woman now. She just got a hype woman.

C (53:13)

I kind of like that.

B (53:15)

I'm literally just seeing her now. But obviously, you're feisty and, you know, full of energy and fire, so I'm sure you are a fantastic attorney. I love that.

C (53:24)

I do. I do okay for myself. Good for you. The courtroom is definitely my forte.

B (53:29)

Amazing.

C (53:31)

My cross examination, it's funny because I have some bailiffs, you know, the courthouse security that always come out up to me afterwards, and they're like, man, they're like, we just wish we had popcorn and a beer to watch you on the cross because you get this smirk on your face, and we know what's coming next. Like, we're just waiting for it. So, yeah, apparently people find some entertainment value in my cross examinations.

B (53:54)

That's awesome. That's really.

C (53:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (53:56)

Let's just put it this way. If you're in court, you want Michelle defending you.

B (54:02)

The questions, hopefully, I. I don't want to be in that position ever. I'm trying really hard to stay on the right side of the law so far, but I will definitely keep Michelle. Michelle's name on my phone in case I get in trouble.

C (54:15)

Just in case.

A (54:17)

So basically, Cat, the day before Michelle retires from her law firm, she can be a guest then. Like, the day before.

B (54:25)

Listen, I've had very successful divorce attorneys on the show, and they were like, they. They did pretty well. They were like, no. No issues. You know? No issues.

C (54:35)

Now I'll come on the show because here's. Here's the other issues. I also know that. That if I know that there's no editing, I will have much more of a.

B (54:44)

A filter.

C (54:45)

Yeah, I'll have a little bit more of a filter. I'm still Southern. I'm still very Texan, but I will have a little bit more of a filter.

A (54:53)

Someone wants to dip their toe in the water, not jump in First I thought we had already covered that. So I'm already calling you out on the lies that you're.

C (55:00)

No lie is not a lie. It is a

A (55:05)

adjustments. Is it. Is it a situational adjustment, Michelle?

C (55:08)

Yes, that's a way to put it. It's a situational adjustment. Well, I agree, but think about the differences between people. Like think about. Was it Eddie Bunker from. What was the show? Jake, I never remember the show names Archie Bunker from. Did I say Eddie Bunker?

A (55:24)

Eddie Bunker sounds like a guy who. Who owns a bar or possibly a mechanic who is got fired but then got worked back in somehow through his brother in law. Sorry.

C (55:35)

So Archie Bunker, wasn't he like in his 40s when he did the show? It's all. Is it all in the family? I don't even know what is show.

A (55:43)

He was probably 10 years younger than both of us. Like he, he.

C (55:47)

I mean, right?

A (55:47)

He was probably. And he was probably maybe 49 or 50.

C (55:51)

Maybe. Okay, look at what he looked like when he did that show versus what you and I look like now. Because I'll be 49 next month. So I will say you're younger than me.

B (56:03)

When? Next month. March.

C (56:04)

Huh?

B (56:05)

I'm March as well.

C (56:06)

The soothsayer said, beware the eyes of March.

B (56:09)

What day is your birthday?

C (56:11)

March 15th.

B (56:12)

Oh, I'm March 6th.

C (56:14)

Well, there you go. I knew I liked you for a reason.

A (56:17)

You two need to celebrate your birthdays. That's what the polar Lounge girl.

C (56:22)

I think I'm gonna have to because March 6th is when my son spring break starts. So I think Manning will be going with me to Beverly Hills.

B (56:30)

Yeah, that would be trip plan.

A (56:33)

Yay. Who knew this would happen? Cat, we're not used to being invited anywhere. So this is really great for us in. In public too. You want to meet with us in public?

B (56:43)

Of course. 100%. I know. So am I. Oh, I don't have any doubt.

C (56:50)

You are a party all in yourself. Look at that logo. Look at that logo behind her. Cat on the loose. Need I say more? Listen, it's. Yeah, it's there. I see a kindred spirit. I think together that we may have some trouble.

B (57:05)

Yes, let's cause some trouble in Beverly Hills.

A (57:08)

The jail is very nice there, by the way.

C (57:12)

Whatever trouble I get into is not gonna be maybe getting arrested.

B (57:16)

No, same. Yeah. Remember, I'm trying to stay on the good side of the law. Oh, so far so good. So far so good.

A (57:22)

Cat, if you're going to party with somebody, party with a lawyer to be fair.

C (57:26)

Right.

B (57:27)

I know, listen, I am the most boring partying person in the world because I don't even drink alcohol. I do maybe the one occasional glass of wine and that's it. You know, I just have great energy. But I'm not like a party anymore or anything. And you know, Beverly Hills, right? Everything is done like said I. At 10pm I'm in bed.

C (57:48)

No thanks. God bless, Cat. I really like you.

B (57:53)

Thank you. I appreciate that so much. I hope you come here to my. So we can do a show in person.

C (57:59)

We will. Cuz I. Jake dragged me kicking and screaming. Not really. I will. I'm. I'm out in la. At least. Well, I think it's been once a quarter. Although I think last quarter was twice. I'll be back out there again soon and I'll bring Cosmo with me because he has been out there before and thoroughly enjoys la.

A (58:18)

Yes, cats, here's ironic, but you probably live very close to this. I sent her the link for the Beverly Hills Hotel.

C (58:23)

I said you gotta try my favorite

B (58:24)

place on the planet. I'm literally going there today for lunch. It's like my second home away from home. Like I could literally live there. You know, I. I go there I there all the time. It's so magical and well, I can

C (58:39)

tell you I'm staying there next time.

B (58:41)

Oh, please. Yeah. Ask for a bungalow because it's so perfect with the dogs because you're in and out so quickly and the area is so walkable. Yes. Treat yourself. You're gonna love it. Call me so we can like have. It's the best happy hour in Beverly Hills, by the way. The Polo Lounge.

C (58:59)

Okay. We'll have to check it out.

B (59:01)

Tons of nice eligible men there. Business contacts. It's just a great power networking. I meet friends, I meet all kinds of people there. So yeah, it's just a great place to be. Yeah.

C (59:14)

Well, Jake, I'll be there next week.

A (59:16)

Yes.

C (59:17)

Come on over, girl.

B (59:19)

Come on over.

C (59:21)

Please.

B (59:22)

Please. We want. We would. I would love to hang out with you guys in person. Let's do it.

C (59:26)

Oh, I'm. I'm extra.

A (59:29)

I. And she's not. She's not underestimating that, Cap, but I think we all got to be a little extra in this era. I think it's our time to be extra.

B (59:37)

Yes. And then we can plan. Yes.

C (59:41)

I mean, really. Thank you.

B (59:42)

It was really lovely meeting you guys. Thank you for having me. It was a huge honor.

C (59:47)

It was. It's nice to find another kindred spirit on that. Life can be beautiful. You Just have to look at it from the right perspective. That's. Even if you've gone through the. Because all of us have a story. All of us have a. All of us have been through. And that's why kindness. I mean, to me, kindness costs you nothing. Because the person you're talking to every given day, you don't know what they've been through. You don't know what their history is or what's going on in their particular lives. And why not just be kind? Because that one small act can change a person's day, week, month, even a year, and sometimes even their life.

B (60:28)

Yes. So true. So true.

A (60:31)

There's two things I want to accomplish before we wrap up. One is, Kat, where can we find your show? Name the platforms, name how many episodes you have, just anything you want to share about where we can find it.

B (60:43)

So Kat on the Loose is on all podcasting platforms. Spotify, iHeartRadio, Amazon Music series, obviously, Apple Podcasts. We are on YouTube. Cat on the Loose show. Yeah. And. And people find all the links on the website. Catonthelose.com I'm on Instagram a lot. I am on all social media platforms. Wherever you guys want to find me, I'm there. So it's very. I'm very foundable. I'm very Google. Like you said, my dates, even my dad. I'm very Google. There is no fighting ever. Everything is there, dude. You can google me and I'm right there.

A (61:21)

And we will put the links in the show notes as well.

C (61:24)

And it's been fun and it's been a session that I'm so glad I had the opportunity and privilege to do. I hope you all have a fabulous day. You can find us on Instagram under love L Law. You have want to know what we're doing? Check us out. You can email us@hellomichelle.com or you can also send us messages on Instagram. I'm also an attorney, Michelle Lock dot com. Just remember Michelle's with one L. You can thank my mom, Margo with no T for that. You all have a great one.