“We can survive. Can we thrive? That’s a different question.” — Corey Nathan

Robert Mueller died last week. Educated at Princeton, this Vietnam veteran won a Purple Heart and then enjoyed decades of public service under presidents of both parties. But the current president celebrated Mueller’s death. Such are the vagaries of American history.

In contrast, Corey Nathan — host of the Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other podcast — isn’t celebrating Robert Mueller’s death. Nathan is from suburban northern Los Angeles County, very much at the heart of the (mythical?) American center. We discussed whether it’s possible to have a civic conversation anymore. Like so many Americans, Nathan falls back on what he calls “data.” Apparently 85% of Americans are what a recent study calls the “exhausted majority.” They see themselves as anything but extreme. All they want to do is take the kids to soccer practice, enjoy their barbecue, and talk to the neighbour without the conversation degenerating into verbal war.

Nathan’s own story offers hope. He grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family whose roots go back eight hundred years to what is now Chernihiv in Ukraine. In his late twenties, he became a born-again Christian. His father seriously considered sitting Shiva for him — the mourning ritual for a dead family member. But he valued his relationship with his son more than his theological convictions. Twenty-five years later, the conversations are richer than ever. If an Orthodox Jewish father and his born-again Christian son can keep talking, maybe even the current American President could sit Shiva for Robert Mueller.

Five Takeaways

• 85% of Americans Are the Exhausted Majority: The Hidden Tribes study by More in Common found that only 6–7% on the right and 7–8% on the left are what we’d think of as extremes. The rest — 85% — are far more nuanced in their views. They want to go to the barbecue, take the kids to soccer practice, and have a conversation with the neighbour without it turning into a war. The conflict entrepreneurs on both sides have taken all the oxygen.

• Mueller Was Everything We Say We Want in Our Kids: Purple Heart. Ivy League education. Used his degrees for public service instead of money. Served under presidents of both parties. Stayed on at the FBI after 9/11 when the country needed him. And the current president said he was glad he died.

• ICE Came to the Neighbouring Church: Nathan’s pastor had to have the conversation: if ICE comes, they’re welcome to worship — but here are our legal obligations. A suburban mom was shot in her front seat two months ago. Is anything visibly wrong in the American suburbs? Today, at his house, no. But these things are happening all over the country.

• His Father Almost Sat Shiva for Him: Nathan grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family. In his late twenties, he became a born-again Christian. His father seriously considered performing the mourning ritual for a living son. But he valued the relationship with his child more than his theological convictions. Twenty-five years later, the conversations are richer than ever.

• We Can Survive. Can We Thrive? Nathan’s family lived in what is now Chernihiv, Ukraine, for eight hundred years. One day to the next, nothing changed — until the Cossacks burned the houses and the Bolsheviks came. Democracy isn’t perfect, but it’s the system that lets us thrive, not just survive.

About the Guest

Corey Nathan is the host and producer of Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other, a top 1% podcast. He lives in northern Los Angeles County.

References:

• Talking Politics and Religion Without Killing Each Other — Nathan’s podcast.

• Episode 2849: How Stories Can Save Us — Colum McCann on Narrative Four, referenced in the conversation.

• Episode 2846: How to Be Agreeably Disagreeable — Julia Minson on disagreeing better. Nathan is the practitioner to Minson’s science.

About Keen On America

Nobody asks more awkward questions than the Anglo-American writer and filmmaker Andrew Keen. In Keen On America, Andrew brings his pointed Transatlantic wit to making sense of the United States — hosting daily interviews about the history and future of this now venerable Republic. With nearly 2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.

Chapters:

(00:31) - Introduction: Robert Mueller dies, Trump says he’s glad
(03:25) - Mueller as American tragedy: David Frum and the centrist view
(05:48) - The exhausted majority: Hidden Tribes and the 85%
(08:40) - Is the left as bad as the right?
(10:15) - Braver Angels, shell-shock, and the people who just want a barbecue
(13:53) - If a foreigner landed in your suburb, would they notice anything wrong?
(15:33) - ICE at the neighbouring church. A mom shot in her front seat.
(17:43) - The secret sauce of talking without killing
(20:26) - Colum McCann, Narrative Four, and storytelling as civic repair
(22:04) - Does democracy really matter if you’ve got soccer practice?
(24:04) - Surviving vs. thriving: eight hundred years as strangers in a strange land
(25:19) - The First Amendment’s two halves: freedom of and freedom from
(28:55) - An Orthodox Jew becomes a born-again Christian. His father almost sits Shiva.
(32:04) - The revolutionary centre: Adrian Wooldridge and the lost genius of liberalism