B (1:17)

I got fired in State Farm Arena.

A (1:20)

I can't do that.

B (1:21)

What are you doing?

A (1:22)

I can't do it on my.

C (1:22)

You would do it again.

B (1:23)

You're like. And I'll do it again.

A (1:24)

That's why they don't ever bring me back up there. Have me swag. Surfing.

C (1:28)

Yeah.

B (1:28)

Everybody was like.

A (1:31)

And they was playing the Nets, too.

B (1:33)

It was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. For those who don't know, let me tell you. Deval Ellis is a former NFL player turned actor. Currently, he is a series regular in the number one cable television drama series Tyler Perry's Sisters and the star of his very own number one rated spinoff, Zatima, which he has the pleasure of playing opposite yours truly.

A (1:55)

Talk about it, talk about it.

B (1:58)

And can't leave this out. You are also a New York Times bestseller for your book, We Over Me, that you co wrote with your wife, Kadeen Ellis.

A (2:07)

Yes.

B (2:07)

Amazing. I'm so happy you are here. You're one of my closest friends. I just love you. I look up to you and I admire you so much. Thank you. When I think about the first time we met, the first time I actually saw you was on Instagram and social media. That was my first introduction of you. But I never. A word. Like, everybody ain't seen you.

C (2:28)

A word.

B (2:30)

But we got to. The first time I actually Met you in person or saw you in person. Was in the audition room for Sistas at the time. Fatima was a really small character that hadn't yet been introduced. And I was a producer on the show, or still I'm a producer on the show. But I was sitting in the back of the room watching all the auditions with Tyler, and. And that's the first time I got to see you as an actor. And I was like, wow, he has something special.

A (2:54)

That's what's up.

C (2:55)

Yeah.

B (2:55)

No, for real.

C (2:56)

For real.

B (2:59)

Then we got to know each other through Sistas. I remember getting the call saying, I'm gonna make you Zach's girlfriend or his love interest. And I was like, what?

A (3:08)

Yeah. When I first read it, I was like. I was like, where is this going?

B (3:11)

I didn't understand it.

C (3:12)

Yeah.

B (3:12)

I was like, y' all can't give me. You know what I'm saying? That tall, dark, chocolate.

A (3:17)

And that's your type, too. That is your type, too. I was like, that is your type, too, right?

B (3:24)

It is.

A (3:25)

Okay.

B (3:25)

Don't just put that in the atmosphere. Tall, dark, chocolate, and some other things. Cause I've learned I gotta be careful what I say. Cause that's what God will bring me. And that's all he'll have is just tall, dark, and chocolate. So I gotta be careful what I say. But I remember when we got the call, we started rehearsing together. And at first, it was just, like, straight rehearsing. One day you were like, so tell me about yourself. We had never just had a conversation. It was like, hey, I'm Crystal. Like, do you want to run it?

A (3:52)

So, like, meek. And I was like, first, here's the funny thing is, I got the scripts, and, you know, there were a couple guys who had a crush on you.

B (4:02)

Oh, I remember.

A (4:03)

Right. They had a crush on you. I'm not gonna blow them up. But I got the scripts, and I'm reading the scripts, and it says, Zach and Fatima, Zack and Fatima. And then finally it says, Zack and Fatima started to have sex. So I immediately called those guys. I said, well, well, well, guys. And they were pissed at me.

C (4:22)

Pissed at me.

A (4:23)

That's what I'm letting y' all know. But then we were also scared because you're also a producer on the show. So I was like, this is our boss. So, like, there has to be a level of respect, you know, when dealing with this role. So when you called me, I was just. I was nervous. I was like, is she calling me as a protest producer or as an actor? And you were so meek on the phone. And I was like, why is she so meek? Like, you, a producer, you worked with Tyler all of these years. I was nervous more than anything else.

B (4:47)

Wow, that's crazy. And I was nervous because that was my first time really acting. And then having a scene partner like you who's had experience and been on all these shows, I'm like, oh, God. Okay, here we go. And I remember calling you to rehearse because it was during the pandemic. No, actually, the pandemic hadn't happened yet. It was beginning of January. It was beginning of. Of. Remember, we got the call, we were going to do it, and then our.

A (5:11)

In March.

B (5:11)

Yep. We got the call in March that we weren't coming back because of COVID So that was our initial interaction. And here we are five years later.

A (5:22)

Five years later.

B (5:23)

Since 2019.

A (5:25)

Yeah, since 2019. But that was actually 2020.

B (5:27)

So four years later.

A (5:28)

Four years later. But I do remember us running lines the first couple times. And we were just like, yo, I kind of like this chemistry of where the story's going. Because at the time, you were paralegal and Zach just coming out of prison. It was just like, they can have, like a coming of age love story. And we were like, we gonna get our own show.

B (5:48)

Literally said that. It shows you the power of the tongue. Guys, we literally said this. And like, two years later, or even less than that.

A (5:56)

It was. No, it was less than that. We sat on the bed, we were getting ready to do a scene, and Tyler walked in. He walked in and said, I like this. I like this.

B (6:05)

And we looked at each other like, it's about to happen.

A (6:10)

Yes. Yes.

B (6:11)

We knew it at that moment. I remember it had not been officially announced, and we heard the crew whispering about Satima's coming Zatima because they saw it on the production calendar. And we were like, we might tell you. And then I got the call. Yo, nigga, you got your Osha. I was like, you are lying to me.

A (6:27)

That was. Oh, my gosh. I was in bed. I was in bed with K. T called me, and K was just looking at me like she could tell that something was happening.

C (6:36)

Yeah.

A (6:37)

Cause I was on the phone, then I sat up. Yeah. And I remember saying, you serious?

B (6:42)

You for real?

A (6:43)

Stop playing.

B (6:43)

Stop playing like Usher.

A (6:47)

So then she told me, like, yeah, she jumped up.

B (6:49)

Like, what?

A (6:50)

Yeah, she looked nervous, and I was like. I told her it was. It was exciting time, yo.

B (6:55)

No, it really was the verses in history. That's amazing. We did that yo, we did. We know. We really did that.

A (7:01)

We manifested it.

C (7:02)

We worked for it.

A (7:03)

Yeah, we did it.

B (7:05)

Speaking of manifesting, I feel like a lot of your life has been manifested.

C (7:10)

Yeah.

B (7:11)

Let's take it back. Let's go all the way back, because I want to give people the full scope of Deval going all the way back to being raised in Brooklyn, New York, having these dreams. Did you always dream of being an NFL star? Did you always dream of being an actor? How did that come about?

A (7:26)

Never wanted to be in the NFL, really.

B (7:28)

So how did that. You were just that good.

A (7:30)

One of my early.

C (7:31)

Yeah.

B (7:32)

Eli.

A (7:32)

Stop, stop, stop, stop. No, this is a true story. My parents didn't want her. My parents didn't want their kids in the streets in Brooklyn. So they used to send us down to Morristown, Tennessee, shout out to each other every year for eight weeks. Our grandparents, we went down there. They had an acre and a half of grass. They had trees. They had everything. And it was a space for us to have some time to be away from the city. All you have to do there is ride bikes, run, jump, climb trees, and.

B (8:04)

Drink out the water hose.

A (8:05)

Exactly.

B (8:06)

And don't be letting my air out, man.

A (8:07)

Stay outside. If you come back inside, you inside all day. You know how country parents are.

C (8:13)

Yes.

A (8:14)

So I remember going down to Morristown, Tennessee, and just being super athletic because we had nothing else to do.

C (8:18)

Yeah.

A (8:19)

Like, all we did was play and jump, run and race and run up the hill. And they lived in the mountains, so everything was uphill or downhill. So all that acceleration, deceleration made me athletic. But here's the thing that kind of sparked my interest. We used to go to the Boys Club when we turned 13. Then they turned it from the Boys Club to the Boys and Girls Club of America. And when they did that, they added Creative Arts. And I remember being 13 years old, and I went back into the Creative Arts center, and they were in there singing and dancing and putting on plays. And I was like, I want to do that.

C (8:56)

Wow.

A (8:56)

But here's the crazy part. I'm a kid from Brooklyn. Everybody who goes into the Creative Arts who's a male is looked at as soft, weak, gay. And this is the 90s.

C (9:07)

Yeah.

B (9:09)

Different times.

A (9:09)

It's a different time. Like, no one. No one is even speaking about that type of lifestyle. So it was like, man, what do I do? Yeah, I'm gonna just play sports. I'm gonna just ignore that part of my life and play sports. So I did that, and I just told my parents I Was gonna find a way to go to college so that after I go to college, I could be an artist.

C (9:26)

Wow.

B (9:27)

That is amazing. So when you. So when you started playing, how old were you when you started playing football?

A (9:34)

So, okay, I was a basketball player. I could dunk when I was in eighth grade. I'm not tall. I was only 5 7, but I was crazy explosive. Like I said, being in Morristown. So my brother and my cousin and I, we were all just super athletic. And I was like, you know, I'm gonna go to the NBA. But my goal to go to the NBA was only to make enough money so that I didn't have to be a starving artist.

C (9:56)

Wow.

A (9:57)

Oh, my gosh. And then, yeah, that's literally the whole thing was, I'm gonna go to the NBA. So I looked at Allen Iverson. He was like my size. And, you know, I designed my game around him. And then my basketball coach, you know, he was. He was a tough guy, but he wasn't one of those guys that got kids into college.

C (10:11)

Right.

A (10:12)

And then the football coach came and said, yo, you five nine and you can dunk. This is when I was a sophomore in high school. Five mine. You can dunk. Why don't you just play football? I was like, man, nobody playing no football. I'm 130 pounds, right? He said this to me. He said, you want to go to school? I said, yeah. He said, you want to go to school for free? I said, yeah. He said, you play between the numbers and the sideline, I'll get you to school for free. So at 16 years old, I picked up football.

C (10:36)

Wow.

A (10:37)

And the rest was history.

B (10:38)

The rest was history. That is crazy. So you go to school at Hofstra?

A (10:43)

Yeah.

B (10:44)

And then you. Were you drafted or did you.

A (10:48)

Wasn't drafted? First of all, I was a walk on. At Hofstra. I was walk on. I was small at the time when I was being recruited. And this is something for people, parents to understand. I was 17 when I played my last down to football in high school. Cause I was in school early, so I didn't turn 18 until the end of the year. But that season I was 17. I was competing against 18, 19 year olds. So I was only at the time, 5, 10, 148 pounds. So all the schools came and they were just like, 148. You wish you was 148 pounds. Fatima cannot be 148 pounds. Stop that. But I haven't been that way since high school.

C (11:28)

Wow.

A (11:29)

But I. I broke a bunch of records I got 26 passes for 831 yards, 15 touchdowns. Thought I was gonna get a scholarship offer never came. So Hofstra offered me a partial scholarship, which was just room and boarding books. Yeah, at the time, it's $10,000. My parents had to pay $15,000 for tuition. So I told my parents, I said, yo, just let me. Let me walk on. I'm gonna earn a scholarship. Once I get the scholarship. My plan was to make a practice squad in the NFL. I could make $100,000 in four months. And those four months, I was gonna buy a brownstone in Brooklyn, shout out to Brooklyn, rent out the top two floors, live downstairs.

B (12:08)

Oh, you had a plan.

A (12:09)

I had a whole plan.

C (12:10)

Wow.

A (12:10)

I had a whole plan from the time I was 17.

C (12:13)

Wow. Wow, Devel.

B (12:14)

So you've always been like this. Cause for me to know you now, you're a strategic thinker.

A (12:20)

Well, remember you started talking about manifestation. God gave me all of these visions. I kid you not. From the time I was young, a voice always said to me, where you are is not going to be where you spend the rest of your life. That voice told me that. And the same voice always told me to question things and challenge things and not to do things the traditional way. So ever since I had that, I always felt like God had me.

C (12:45)

So.

A (12:46)

So when it came time to doing something outside the box, I'm on it.

B (12:49)

You're like, I'm on it. Cause God got me.

A (12:51)

God got me.

C (12:51)

Wow.

B (12:52)

I love that. So you get through college and it's time for NFL draft, what happens?

A (13:00)

This is funny, man. I killed college.

C (13:03)

Yeah.

A (13:04)

I was on pace to be the only receiver to have 1,000 yards two years in a row.

B (13:07)

Oh, wow.

A (13:08)

I played with Marcus Colston, who's a freaking savage. Everybody knows that. But if we're being honest, I was the number one receiver on the team. He was the number two receiver. But if you look at Marcus Colson, he's 6 5, 230 pounds and runs a 4 4. If I'm taking a receiver, I'm taking Marcus Colson. I'm not taking the little fast guy. But once again, my plan was to just make a practice squad. It was like, yo, I didn't get drafted. I wasn't even a high priority free agent. I wasn't. It was just, I ran the fast time. They was like, you can come try out if you want to. I ran a 4, 3 and a 40, 40 inch vertical 10, 5 on the broad jump. Like I had all the measurables just Some small guy from the small school. So at this point, five'11, £175. Still tiny.

C (13:52)

Yeah.

A (13:52)

I told my wife, k, I said, yo, all I gotta do is make a practice squad. I get $100,000 and then we can get our dream.

C (14:00)

Right.

A (14:01)

And I ended up making a team.

C (14:03)

Wow.

A (14:03)

And made way more than $100,000.

C (14:05)

Oh.

A (14:05)

Now and then it was like, all right, well, I can buy some property, I can start some businesses. So this way when I get into my art, I'm not broke.

B (14:13)

Right.

A (14:14)

And then I got cut unexpectedly, my third season.

B (14:17)

Oh, man.

A (14:18)

At the same time as the recession, lost all my money.

B (14:22)

So.

C (14:22)

Okay.

B (14:23)

Wow. So what, in that moment, what is going through your head? Cause I would have been like, lord, why?

A (14:29)

I was mad. Yeah, I was mad and I was mad. I hate saying this. I was mad at God. You know how they say, you know, Jesus was on the cross and he said, God, why have you forsaken me?

B (14:40)

Yes.

A (14:41)

That was me in my bathroom, running the shower. Kay is in there. Because I had just proposed to Kay. I just bought a house. I just. I was planning my life, Remember, I always had a plan. I was planning my life. I was slated to be the number three receiver, punt returner, kick returner. And that summer comes around and it all just went to shit. I got cut. I was losing $15,000 a day in the stock market. I had bought two properties. Both properties, value was going down because the housing market had burst. So I had no equity in the properties. I had to move back to Brooklyn in my grandparents old apartment with my fiance. And I sat in my. I used to sit in the bathroom. I used to put the water on, close the door. And I would cry. I would cry. I would sit and she'd be like, babe, you okay? And I'd be in there, I'd just be like, yeah. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm good. Letting the water heat up.

C (15:34)

Yeah.

A (15:34)

Cause we lived in an old apartment, that water used to be hot. And I used to be in there freaking ballin'. Cause I was like, what are you gonna do? I followed everything you told me to do. When all my friends and people in the NFL, and they were buying chains and they were buying. They going to the strip club, buying fancy cars. I drove a Ford F150. My payment was $135 a month. I put all my money in property in the stock market and all of it got taken. And I was like. I was like. I listened. Yeah, I was committed. You know, I was with my Girlfriend at the time was my wife. I was doing everything the right way and it all was taken from me. And I was just like, God, why? Like, this ain't fair, right? Like, I was like, this is. This is trash. If this is life, why did I do all of that? I said, I could have been promiscuous, I could have been to strip clubs, I could have bought chains and cars, and I still would have the same amount of money and I would still have the same feeling because I felt like less of a man. I'm like, I asked this woman to marry me under the pretense that I was gonna take care of her. And now I'm asking her to move back to my grandparents apartment in Brooklyn. Like, I just felt like, that's a blow. Yeah, my ego was done. I was just kind of like. And I don't like to say I have suicidal thoughts, because that's just the thing, but I did kind of. It was times. I was just like, man, why I ain't even living no more? Like, I didn't want to get out of bed. Like, it was bad.

B (16:56)

Right in that moment. What was the pivot that made you say, you know what? Get up, Devale. Like, I need. You gotta move on from this. Life has to go on, and I need to pick myself up.

A (17:07)

It's gonna sound crazy, but when you're responsible for someone else, like, you just can't. Yeah, I asked my wife to marry me. What I'm gonna do now? Yeah, like, what I'm gonna do. And then growing up in a Baptist church, you always hear about trials and tribulations.

B (17:26)

Absolutely.

A (17:26)

You always hear about tests. And then it was like, there was one person who used to always call me. It was my Aunt Debbie.

B (17:33)

Love Aunt Debbie. You know, my Aunt Debbie.

A (17:35)

I love you, Aunt Debbie. When you go through something like that, most of your family doesn't know how to approach you.

C (17:42)

Yeah.

A (17:43)

People think that, you know, oh, when you on high, everybody wants to be around you, but then when you low, nobody wants to be. They discard you.

B (17:49)

Talk about it.

A (17:51)

I've learned that it's not that they just discard you, but if you're the light to so many people and now your light goes out, those people really don't know what to say or how to be of service. Yeah, You've been of service to so many people, and now you need somebody they really don't know. My Aunt Debbie would call me like once a week. Hi, poo poo. Hi, poo poo. I'm like, what's up, Aunt Debbie? She's like, you all right? I'm like, yeah. She used to ask me all the time, you in your Bible?

C (18:20)

Mm.

A (18:22)

I used to be like, yeah.

B (18:23)

Lying, lying, lying.

A (18:25)

Like, straight lying, right? And she was like, pooh, pooh. You don't gotta lie to me. And all she said was, you just remember how you was raised. That's all she would say. You remember how you was raised? And. And that was kind of like, you know what? You're right. Because my father was laid off when I was 17 years old, going into my senior year. My father was working for Chase bank forever. My father always kept multiple jobs. He used to bounce work at Chase Bank. He would sell jewelry. My father did everything to provide for his family. I remember my father came home one day and said, I got laid off. I was like, hello. Like, you the man of the house. What you mean you got laid off? He said, don't worry about it. It'll be fine. Cause my father always plans. And I said, if my father could go through that. And he had three kids, one going to college. You know, my sister was in private school. I said, all I have now is a fiance.

C (19:19)

Yeah.

A (19:20)

And I thought about how I was raised. And I watched my grandfather get up every morning and go to work. Then I watched my father push through. So I said, fuck it. I'm gonna just put my head down and just create. And that's all I did was create opportunities for myself and for my wife. We had to make money, and I just found ways to create.

C (19:40)

Wow.

B (19:41)

Oh, my goodness.

A (19:43)

Them times always be hard for me. I'd be. See, I said I wasn't gonna fucking cry. Those would really be the hardest times because people don't know what it's like to be not just a man, but you the light in your family.

C (20:06)

My God. Yeah.

A (20:07)

You know what I'm saying? Like, everybody's like, you're devoured. How can I devour? Can you? And I'm always like, yeah. Because I've always felt like these blessings that have been given to me are not for me. I have a fiduciary responsibility to provide for everyone around me. Even when I create businesses. You know, it's like, I create a business, I'm like, yo, which one of my friends could use extra 15k? I'm like, yo, I'll put you on my business, then you can. Da da. You make some extra. Like, I've always been that way. So when you feel like you don't have that ability to be that for people you don't feel like you belong anywhere. And it's like, I felt like less of a man. I felt like less of a brother, less of a son. And I'm like, I'm failing everybody. So when you push through that, I always put it away. I don't even think about it.

C (20:55)

Yeah.

A (20:56)

Until I got to talk about it.

C (20:57)

Mm.

B (20:59)

And I think that's something we have to do more of. Stop suppressing everything. You know, I feel like, especially the black man. You guys have to be strong for everybody. And especially.

A (21:09)

I wasn't gonna cry. I don't know why you did this to me, man.

B (21:12)

It's all right.

A (21:13)

Oh, man. My bad. Go ahead.

C (21:17)

No, you're good.

B (21:18)

But as the black man who is the light to everybody, you do hold a lot. And our society and our community has not, until recently, allowed the man to express or to cry or to feel anything because. Which, like, when your dad came home. All right, you the man in the house. What you going to do? That's been the thing.

A (21:41)

Absolutely.

B (21:42)

You have to suck it up and keep going.

A (21:45)

That's really. Even now. Like, you are creative. There's no salary that every month I'm guaranteed on the 1st and the 15th, I'm gonna get this.

B (21:56)

Nope.

A (21:57)

I gotta wake up every morning and say, yo, how much money am I gonna make to be able to survive for the next six months?

B (22:03)

Yes.

A (22:03)

Next five years. You know, I have a wife now. I have four kids. They're gonna start going to college. We're looking at private school. I can't just sit back and wait.

C (22:12)

No.

A (22:13)

So sometimes it is, like, a lot of pressure. But I ain't gonna lie to you, yo. God always had me. I've never not had what I needed. I may not have always had what I wanted when I wanted it, but I've always had what I needed. One story I always tell was when Kadeem. We didn't have insurance. Cause the NFL, once you get cut, they drop you from insurance. So I had no insurance. Now I have a wife. Now she's pregnant. I'm like, I gotta find insurance. I'm like, okay, if I become sag, let me get on this commercial circuit.

C (22:45)

Yeah.

A (22:45)

So now I'm hustling every other day, going to commercials, going to commercials. It was like, well, you got to make 3, 400 by October in order to qualify for next year's insurance.

C (22:55)

Yeah.

A (22:56)

I book a Cheerios Commercial.

C (22:57)

Yes.

A (22:58)

I get a check in the mail. It's for, like, 34, 76. It was, like, almost perfect. Kay calls him and said, hey, my husband just got a check in the mail. And he's like, oh, yeah, we see his name, Ellis. He's qualified. He's SAG eligible. He joins sag, he get insurance. God's always done that for me.

B (23:14)

Always made a way.

A (23:15)

Always made a way. There was times I lived, you know, through my credit card. I had my Square app, and I got kicked off the Square app. Cause I used to cash advance myself money through my American Express. Sorry, American Express, but I used to cash advance myself money to make it for month to month. And this is when I owned the gym. And I was trying to keep the business going, but I also had employees. And there was times where it's like, shoot, it's a valley in training right now. But these people gotta get paid. So I'm like, here's $5,000. Here's your thousand. Here's your thousand. You know what I'm saying? I lived through that for like half a decade.

C (23:48)

Wow.

B (23:49)

Wow.

A (23:49)

Half a decade. Just paycheck to paycheck. Just. I never told K how bad it was. Never told my parents. I just smiled and I used to be like, yo, D, you doing it? And I'd be in there, like, broken, like, yep, I'm doing it. I'm doing. But God always had me. God had me. And so now with everything that's happening, I don't take it for granted.

C (24:10)

Yeah, Yeah.

A (24:11)

I don't take it for granted. I still put a lot of money away. I've learned how to protect my peace, but also protect my future.

C (24:18)

Yeah.

A (24:18)

So I give to people, but I don't give what I don't have.

B (24:22)

That's good.

A (24:23)

You know, I try to provide a way for myself to exist for years if everything is taken away. You know, I got cut.

B (24:31)

So.

A (24:31)

So last year, we went with the strike.

C (24:33)

Yeah, yeah.

A (24:34)

You know, I was able to continue my life as usual, because you had been through that. And that's the message.

B (24:39)

That's the message.

C (24:40)

That's the message.

B (24:40)

Because a lot of times you're looking like, lord, why have you forsaken me? But all he's doing is preparing you for something else so that the next time you're prepared for it. And do you know how seamless that strike was, Chris? Like, and I do not say that in a arrogant way.

A (24:56)

I hear you. I hear you.

B (24:57)

It was nothing but the goodness of God. Like, I hear you. Seriously, that we made it through without missing a meal, without any lights going out, anything. And life still went on. We still had an amazing life. And that was nothing. That's how God. That's how my God works.

A (25:12)

I feel you.

B (25:13)

It is like. I know it's a storm outside, but you good.

A (25:16)

Chris. When people ask me. Because spirituality always get questioned.

C (25:19)

Right.

A (25:20)

You have a ton of people now who are like, there's access to everything.

C (25:24)

Yeah.

A (25:25)

So we're no longer. This is crazy. We're no longer blind in the world. But I do realize it's the blind leading the blind. There's a ton of information. It's a lot of information and misinformation. But what I've realized is that you can't convince someone how to practice faith. All I can do is tell you why my faith is important to me. And it's moments like that, like, there's no way. I've never had a 9 to 5. Ever, ever, ever. The only 9 to 5 I had was when I worked at Haagen Dazs when I was 17.

C (25:55)

Oh, wow.

A (25:56)

Every time anything other than that. I've been a contractor. Even in the NFL, you know, you're ultimately a private contractor who they can cut at any point. Acting is the same way. When I owned my gyms, I never worked hourly. I just got. Always found a way for me and put things in my path that I could utilize and create a tool. Like, for example, I never thought I'd be a trainer. I hate school. Went back to study exercise physiology and kinesiology because I needed to get my degree and certification to be able to make money to provide my family. God put that there. Never in a million years would I ever thought that I was going to do that.

C (26:30)

Right.

A (26:31)

But that's why I believe so much. Like, no one can tell me. No one can tell me. He don't. He not real.

C (26:36)

No.

B (26:37)

Seriously. We talk about faith a lot. And I'm very open with you about my journey with God. And I had brought you to church with me on Sunday. Kay came and. And church is not something that you guys participate in often.

A (26:53)

No.

B (26:54)

So let's go back. Cause I know you were raised in a church. What was that journey like? And what made you be like. I want to take a step back.

A (27:03)

Every elder in my family is a parishioner in the church.

C (27:06)

Oh, wow.

A (27:07)

Minister of music, choir director, Boy Scout leader. My father man a men's group called the Junior Layman. One of my aunts is a minister. Like, my grandfather's a deacon. Everybody's in the church, so. So I was in church every day, Monday through Sunday.

B (27:22)

Oh, Lord.

A (27:23)

It was choir rehearsal, Bible study, youth Council, Junior Layman, Boy Scouts, junior Layman again. On a Saturday. Like, I was always in church. So while being there, I've always been inquisitive. God gave me messages, ask questions. I remember I was in Sunday school, and I asked a question about the devil. We were learning about Lucifer being the angel of Music. And I said, so if Lucifer is the angel of Music, and he went against God and became the devil, did God make a mistake? Because he didn't make him to be the angel of Music. And I got screamed at and kicked out of Sunday school. And I was like, I'm asking a legitimate question because I don't understand.

C (28:07)

Yeah.

A (28:08)

And then when no one could give me an answer or try to, they just. Because I was young, I was 12, when they just kind of pushed me aside as a problem child, you know, that was the beginning of the end for me for church. And then my brother had a baby at 17. We had tattoos and braids. My father used to get scolded from the pulpit a lot. And I was like, yo, y' all just mad judgmental. Like, I just felt like there was so much judgment. And I went to college and I started to study different religions because I always had a quest for knowledge. I just wanted to know. So when I was studying Judaism and Catholicism and Christianity and what was the.

B (28:48)

Other one you said? Muslim. You said the Quran.

C (28:52)

Yeah.

A (28:52)

I heard about the three books. The Old Testament, the Quran and the Torah. And the one thing that stuck out to me was that those books tell the same historical story from different perspectives. So there has to be some truth in those books. But it also showed me that I can't tell other people how they're supposed to serve God. God is omnipotent, Right. He's the Alpha Neome, the Almighty.

B (29:14)

You better. You definitely was raised in the church.

A (29:16)

You see, the omnipotent, you know.

C (29:18)

Yeah.

A (29:19)

Who am I to tell someone else that God didn't present himself to you that way.

C (29:23)

Right.

A (29:24)

So for me to tell the Jews or the Buddhists or the Catholics that you're wrong, my God is the right one to me just seems wrong. So I stayed away from creating a label on how I served. And I just seek knowledge. I seek God wherever I am. So for me, it's like, if I'm in a church and it's a Catholic church, let me hear the word.

C (29:42)

Yeah.

A (29:43)

You know what I'm saying? I've been to bar mitzvahs before, so it's like, let me hear the word. Whatever the word is, let me not tune out what it is. So I stay away from church because I don't want to limit myself, but I'm not against going to church. You know what I'm saying?

C (29:56)

Yeah.

B (29:57)

And I mean, I can say that a lot of people, the reason why they aren't in church now to this day is because Christians are labeled judgmental. They feel judged. How you say you're being judged from the pulpit. A lot of people deal with it, and a lot of people deal with church hurt and things that happen in those walls that shouldn't happen, you know? And I think there's a lot of churches that are trying to change that imagery and want to really, like, make it a safe space that it's supposed to be. But I understand. I had this conversation with my parents one day about, can I date a Muslim before? And I tell everybody this all the time. When people ask me, like, who is, like, the best guy you ever dated? And it was this guy who was a Muslim. He was the most loving. I'm talking about the way he just, like, looked after me, that cared for me. Like, I felt. That was like. I really felt love.

A (30:48)

I feel you.

B (30:49)

And my parents were like, you shouldn't be unequally yoked. And like, they were really coming at me hard with the Bible and the Scripture. And I was like, but he's such a good person. And they ended up meeting him. He came to my college graduation, and they, to this day, love him. Like, absolutely love him. But what I learned as I was, I feel like, because I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus. I believe he died for our sins. And that's what. That's my belief. But I don't judge anybody for what they believe in, you know, because God said to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

A (31:21)

Absolutely.

B (31:21)

I'm not here to judge you. I hope that you know what I'm saying. He did. He did say, before he comes back, everyone is going to have the chance to proclaim that he is a savior. But I look at religion as a way to have some type of order in different cultures. And the main thing is to treat others as you would treat yourself.

A (31:42)

Absolutely.

B (31:43)

So I don't judge other people, but I know what I believe because you asked me. So what do you identify with?

A (31:47)

I did ask you on the phone.

C (31:48)

What you identify with.

A (31:49)

Yeah.

B (31:49)

And I was like, I'm a Christian, you know, I don't do the Baptist, Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist. I don't do that because I. I think by college, that's when more the non denomination yeah.

A (32:00)

Started to arise.

C (32:00)

Yeah.

B (32:02)

So that's where I am with it. But I don't judge anybody for what they choose to believe in. You know, I just. I love everybody, and I just let my light shine and hope that Christ shines through that.

A (32:12)

Chris. I wish more of the world just exist in that type of space. Like, if you think about the fact that we have holy wars.

C (32:22)

Yeah.

A (32:22)

That is the biggest oxymoron I've ever heard in my life.

C (32:25)

Yeah.

A (32:25)

A holy war.

C (32:27)

Yeah.

A (32:28)

Like, people should not be fighting people for beliefs. Now. There's a long history of why holy wars have started, you know, and that's very political. It's about land and stuff. But my biggest thing is it is not my job to tell you you're wrong for believing the way you believe. If what you believe keeps you in a sense of peace, allows you not to kill people, hurt people, steal from people, and just be a good person for humanity, then that's what you should believe. And that was my biggest fear from church growing up, my godmother was Catholic, and even in the Catholic Church, they believe that Jesus died on the cross. They don't believe in the resurrection. So they were just like, you believe in the Resurrection? And I'm like, yeah. And then I could feel the judgment. And I'm like, everywhere I go, why get judged? I remember one of my friends, Brandon, his father was Jewish, and he was just like, you're not Jewish. You're not of the chosen people, so you can't get access to a positive afterlife.

C (33:27)

Wow.

A (33:28)

And I'm like, all of y' all have some judgmental way of telling other people that they don't belong. I'm not subscribing to that. I'm not. And I refuse to argue with people. I don't want to go back and forth. People argue religion all the time on social media.

C (33:40)

They do.

A (33:41)

And I'm like, this is the dumbest thing that person believes in being a better person for whatever they believe. Let them believe that. I don't argue with my parents. My parents go. Still go to church every Sunday, and they ask me why I don't, and we have conversations, but I don't judge them.

C (33:54)

Yeah.

B (33:54)

And they. I'm sure they don't judge me.

A (33:55)

They don't judge me. They love me the way I am. They. They love my. They still will take my boys to church.

B (34:00)

I was gonna ask you that. Like, so as you're bringing up your boys, like, what are you instilling in them? So they have their own walk. Because I know our parents was like, you gonna be in church every year? Every Sunday? It wasn't a choice if I wanted to get up on Sunday morning or Bible study on Wednesday nights or choir practice.

A (34:15)

You were going, no, absolutely.

B (34:17)

So what do you do to instill that your boys have some type of relationship with God?

A (34:21)

That's still a conversation. Because my wife grew up Seventh Day Adventist and I grew up Baptist. They study and practice on Saturday, which is the Sabbath, and we go to church on Sunday.

B (34:31)

Right.

A (34:32)

Once again, being judged. K's aunt, first time she met me. Oh, he goes to church on Sunday. That's the wrong day. I was like, oh, gosh. I was like, here we go. Like, here we go.

C (34:40)

Here we go again.

A (34:41)

But Jackson asked me the other day, he was just like, dad, we don't go to church. Because I heard church people are mean.

C (34:49)

Wow.

A (34:49)

I said, nah, bro, that's not the case. I said, church people have the same issues as other people. I said, look, you get sick, you go to hospital, right?

C (34:58)

Yeah.

A (34:58)

When you go to hospital, hospital people sick. What if I told you we're not going to the hospital to get you corrected because people are sick in the hospital? What would you think? He said, that don't make no sense. I said, exactly. Why would you not go to church? Because people in the church have issues. Everyone is going to get healed. So you're gonna run into people with issues in church the same way you got issues. He's like, oh, that makes sense. I said, we all got issues. We all need to heal. So I said, when you want to go, when you're interested, you let me know and we'll look into it. So he was like, all right. And I still ask him about it. We pray. Every night, we pray. The boys all know. They, you know that one lay me down to sleep. They all know that. They understand who God is.

C (35:37)

Yeah.

A (35:38)

So when they come to me and they say, dad, I want to try, I'm gonna say, let's go find one.

C (35:42)

Yeah.

A (35:43)

But I'm not gonna force it on them. Cause I don't want them to feel like they have to believe something. I'm trying to raise kids with open minds.

C (35:49)

Yeah, I love that.

B (35:51)

So you, you have four hoboys. They are all aspiring athletes. I feel like they all are walking in your shoes. As a former athlete, what is something that you instill in them? I know you're like really hard on about working out and training. They train like world class athletes all.

A (36:08)

The time at 12, 7, 6, and 2.

B (36:11)

Crazy. Yes, crazy. And they're all amazing.

A (36:16)

Thank you. One is your God, son.

C (36:18)

Huh?

A (36:18)

One is your godson.

B (36:19)

He is. That's a baby. He'd be right in there with him, like, what y' all doing that too?

A (36:23)

He just. He's like. He reminds me of Cairo. He just sees everything. He wants to emulate it, so.

C (36:27)

Oh, yeah.

B (36:28)

So as a dad, like, what do you do to. Hey, son, if this is what you want to do, I'm gonna teach you how to properly go after that. And what do you do to try to protect them as well as they're navigating that?

A (36:38)

The biggest thing is the mental peace. Because once you start playing sports, the first thing you focus on is other people. Who's better than me, who's cheering for me, who's hating on me. I gotta tell them, like, none of that matters. Yeah, you a kid. You're training to be better. So all you have to focus on is just getting better, 1% better every day.

C (36:57)

Yeah.

A (36:58)

And they just like, that's it. I'm like, I don't care if you win. I don't care if you lose. I don't care how bad you are when you start. I tend to show them me at different stages of my life. And I'm like, don't look at dad now and say, look, my father is successful, so if I'm not there tomorrow, I'm a failure. I show them when I got cut, we talk realistically, my Jackson would be like, you didn't score no touchdowns in the NFL. No, I didn't. That wasn't my version of success at that point in my life.

C (37:24)

Right.

A (37:25)

You know, I'm having more of my successes now in a different part of my life because. Because sports isn't everything. And that's the biggest thing. I tell them, like, you're doing this to challenge your will. The only thing we can control is ourselves. Sports to me, is the ultimate way to test your discipline, challenge your will. That's the only reason why we playing. You don't gotta be a world class athlete. You playing for fun.

C (37:45)

Yep.

A (37:46)

You may be a CEO, you may be an artist, you may be, you know, be a pianist. You may be anything.

B (37:51)

So I wanna go back to a challenging time in your life. We talked about your boys and we talked about your responsibility to your wife.

A (37:58)

Yes.

B (37:59)

When you were playing for the Lions, you got inj.

A (38:01)

Yes.

B (38:02)

And you've been open about your addiction to pain medicine during that time. What was it that you were going through in the mental? And was the pain pills something that you were using to suppress what you were going through at that time. Excuse me.

A (38:16)

Oh, man. Funny thing is, the pain med stuff started in college, Deval. It started in college. And to be honest, you don't realize when things start, when you're going through life. It's not until you look back and you say, dang, it started then. But to be an undersized athlete playing a behemoth sport. I was getting beat up all the time. And I was a free agent tryout in college. I was a walk on. So I always had to prove. I always had to. But that takes wear and tear in your body. I had five knee surgeries, separated shoulder. I played. I had to put a local anesthesia in this shoulder just to finish out my senior year. Big needle. So the medication was a numbing agent. And then once you're constantly numbing, you're afraid of the pain coming back, so you take pain pills ahead of time so that the pain don't come right.

B (39:05)

You know what I'm saying?

A (39:06)

It's not about being high.

B (39:07)

It's a proactive.

A (39:08)

It's a proactive. Like, if I don't take these four Tylenol, I know I'm going to start feeling it. So let me just take. And this is how bad it was when I was in the league. I woke up, I took four Tylenol just to get out of bed. I would get to practice, I would take four Tylenol before practice. I would take four Tylenol at the end of practice, and I would take two Vicodin to go to sleep.

B (39:26)

Jesus. What?

A (39:27)

Every day, Vicodin. Took Vicodin every day, two Vicodin every day to go to sleep. Because in my mind, it was like, if I don't get sleep, my body won't heal, but I'm stressed out. I'm a rookie in the NFL. My body hurt. You can't sleep.

B (39:41)

You cannot sleep.

A (39:42)

You can't sleep. So I'm like, let me just take this so that I can knock me out. Then you wake up and you do it all over again. And before you realize that, you're like, man, this is years of abusing pills to numb pain because you don't want to directly approach something. And that's what it was. The numbing agent for me wasn't my pain, it was numbing the fact that I was stressed out and I wasn't happy playing in the NFL.

C (40:05)

Sheesh.

A (40:06)

I never wanted to be in the NFL.

B (40:07)

That is crazy, because you know how many young men, like, that's Their dream. And then for you to make it and be like, I don't even want to be here.

A (40:14)

I realized that when I was there.

C (40:15)

Wow.

A (40:16)

It don't matter how talented you are. I was faster than the fastest. I could jump high, I could catch the ball. It's a different type of love for the game that requires you to get up every day to continue to hone your skills.

C (40:28)

Yes.

A (40:28)

I did not want to do that. I wanted to act, I wanted to dance. I wanted to just be an entertainer. And as I was in the NFL, I just was not enjoying it. I was miserable. I was miserable. So the pain meds was like, yo, Devon, go to sleep. Get this. $15,000 for this week. Go home and start your business. That's all it was for me. And that's no knock on the NFL, you know, but it was just a means to an end. And the pain pills was a way for me to numb that pain so I can get through it.

C (40:54)

Right.

A (40:55)

And then it's funny, we talking about spirituality. It was my receiver coach in college. I was back home. When you get back home. Now I don't have access to the pain meds, right? So I'm at Kadene's apartment. And every night, cold sweats waking up, she gotta change the sheets. She's like, deval, what is going on? And I'm like, oh, no, I don't know. So I don't have the pain meds. So I'm drinking alcohol now. Cause that's the way to numb the pain. I got money. I have nothing but time on my hands. Me and my friends would wake up at three in the afternoon. As soon as we wake up, we would go get some tequila, orange juice, we take shots. We would go do whatever it is we was doing. And then we would party until 4 in the morning.

C (41:36)

Wow.

A (41:37)

Cause me and K also weren't on good terms. So I was outside. I was outside, just.

B (41:42)

Were y' all married at this point?

A (41:43)

No, we were. We were. This was 2006. We weren't married. This is our first year apart.

C (41:50)

Wow.

A (41:50)

And, you know, distance causes rifts in relationships.

C (41:54)

Absolutely.

A (41:55)

So we were trying to figure out how to get back to where we were. Cause for the last six months, we were not living together. Then I moved back, dealing with all the stuff I was dealing with. I was a different person. She was like, yo, you got ptsd? Then she's like, you gonna have to get out. She was just like, nah. Like, you can't stay here sleeping all day, going out with your friends and Coming in late and sleeping all day. So I was like, fine, I'll leave. Right? But then she's also taking care of me. She's like, deval, every night, you breaking out in cold sweats.

B (42:23)

What is this?

C (42:23)

Yeah.

A (42:24)

And then one night, she called my receiver coach and my receiver coach, Jamie Elizondo, and he's a very spiritual guy. And this is crazy, because based on his spirituality, he doesn't curse, but he cursed me out without cursing me out.

C (42:37)

Wow.

A (42:38)

And was like, you have a responsibility to that woman.

B (42:40)

That's a powerful talking to when they can cuss you out without cussing.

C (42:43)

He didn't.

A (42:44)

Not one curse word. He said, you have a responsibility to that woman to be better, and you have a responsibility to yourself to be better for yourself. So get up. And I was just like. I was just telling him everything I was going through. Like, it was just depression. Like, me and my girl are on the same page. The Lions was looking to draft another receiver, who they ended up drafting Calvin Johnson. I had to deal with playing with Marcus, and now I gotta deal with playing with Calvin Johnson, and I already dealing with Megatron, the Megatron, the receiver of all receivers. I was depressed.

C (43:16)

Wow.

A (43:17)

And he was just like, that's not a good enough reason for you to lay in that bed and do the things you do. And once again, like my Aunt Debbie, you know how you was raised.

B (43:27)

You know how you were raised.

C (43:28)

Wow.

A (43:29)

And it was just like a. And from that moment, no more alcohol. Got in the gym. Stop taking any pain. I don't even take Tylenol no more.

C (43:38)

Yeah, you don't.

B (43:40)

Because I was like, you'll have a headache or something. Like, just take me.

A (43:42)

Like, nope, nope.

B (43:43)

I'm like, you don't want to take nothing?

A (43:44)

Nope, nope.

B (43:45)

Yeah, that's discipline, though. And that's really saying, hey, I don't want to get back to that space. Because you already know how dependent you can be on that, Chris.

A (43:55)

You see, Even when I talk about it, I try not. Like, it's so dark that I'll be like, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry. I don't ever want to be back there, especially have my kids see me like that. Like four young men. They're going to look at me like I looked at my father. And I used to blame my father. I was like, My father used to walk around like he was perfect all the time. He used to put up a facade, he put up a front. But now I see why. Because that's the standard That I lived up to. I was like, my dad does not do these things, so I'm not doing it. So with my boys, I want them to have the same standard.

B (44:29)

So do you. I want to talk to you about that. So when it comes to black men, and you have four young black men that you're raising up and feeling like they can express themselves, feeling like they don't have to be perfect all the time, feeling like they don't have to walk in this facade and be like, I got it all together. What are you doing? To make sure that they have a balance of that of being a man. But also showing that it's okay to cry. It's okay to say, hey, this is how I'm feeling right now.

A (44:57)

This is the first thing every day when I see my sons. Come here. Did I tell you I love you today? Did you tell me you love me today? Give Daddy a kiss. I kiss my sons.

C (45:08)

Yeah.

A (45:08)

I don't care what people think about it. I kiss my sons, I hold my sons, I hug my sons. And when I hug them, it's not like a church. Yeah, no, it's coming. I hold you tight. You know I love you, right?

C (45:19)

Yeah.

A (45:19)

You love me? Yeah. Were you great in school today? Tell me some things that you didn't do great. They tell me. I said, what we gonna do today? We gonna work on it, and that's it.

C (45:29)

I love it.

A (45:29)

And also put them in spaces where they don't have to. Like, we grew up so different. Like in the South. Jim Crow South. Cause remember, I was born in 84.

C (45:39)

Yeah.

A (45:40)

Like, Jim Crow south is not that far.

B (45:42)

It's not that far.

A (45:42)

It's only 20 years. Right. So my grandparents raised me in an environment where, you know, when you're around white people, you keep your head down, you be quiet. When we get dressed up, we're gonna put on slacks, we're gonna put on shoes. You. Yes, sir. You. Yes, ma'. Am. Everybody. And it just always put me in a place where I'm like, are these people better than me? Is that why I have to act like this? You know what I'm saying? And if you think about it, that type of indoctrination teaches you, you know how they would say, you gotta humble yourself. Why are black men always being told that we have to humble ourselves? As an athlete, I watch it, right? Cam Newton does the Superman. He need to be humble. Aaron Rodgers does the discount double check, and he gets praised for it. I'm not doing that to my boys. We walk in every Environment in our truest blackest selves. What do you want to wear, Jackson? Mm, I just want to wear my flip flops and a hoodie. Well, we wearing that. And when you walk in there, you look people in the eyes and you impress them with your intellectual not trying to assimilate to what version they think you have to be in order to be accepted, and they're just like, okay. And K is on board, too. Yeah, because I'm just so tired, and it's exhausting to try to exist in someone else's world. Nah, this is my world. It's my world. You know what I'm saying?

C (47:00)

Yeah.

A (47:01)

Like, no bull. My God created this world for me to exist the same way you exist.

C (47:06)

Exactly.

A (47:07)

So why I gotta humble myself and be all this and be quiet? Nope. I'm speaking my piece. If you don't like it, I'll go where I am accepted and it's celebrated, not just tolerated. And that's what I'm teaching my boys.

C (47:20)

I love that. That is so good.

B (47:22)

Your beautiful wife, Kadeem, you guys have known each other since elementary school?

A (47:27)

Yes.

B (47:28)

Been married since how many years now?

A (47:31)

Let me get it right now.

B (47:32)

Right now. Get it.

A (47:33)

22 years.

C (47:34)

Okay.

A (47:34)

We've been married 13 years.

B (47:36)

Okay. 13 years. Was there any moment in your relationship that was super hard that actually helped shape you as the man that you are today?

A (47:44)

Yes. The moment that I wasn't able to do all the things that I thought made me a man and to still have a woman be there in her feminine energy and not have to belittle me or say, why you ain't doing this, that moment there showed me what true partnership was. Because imagine you're in the NFL. I'm making half a million dollars. Whatever you want, baby. We go. Here we go. Here you go on vacation. You know what I'm saying? I'm feeling like a man. I'm feeling like I'm providing this lifestyle, and then all of it gets stripped away. And you got to take that same woman from your cul de sac, your 4,500 square foot home in Canton, Michigan, and you got to go back to the hood. We lived on New York Avenue between Dean and Bergen. It was called murderer's row. St. Mark's right there. St. Mark's was rough.

C (48:38)

Wow.

A (48:38)

First year we did was two murders in the summertime.

C (48:40)

Oh, my goodness.

A (48:41)

And I'm there with my wife, who grew up in the house in Canarsie. And she's just there like, okay, so.

B (48:47)

What we doing Riding she with you?

A (48:50)

Yeah. Just there. And I'm like, I don't even feel like a man right now. And you're just here.

C (48:56)

Right.

A (48:57)

That made me, like, so dedicated to my marriage.

C (49:01)

I love that.

A (49:02)

You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, I watched the show and Tyler was talking about what women need and what men need, and so much of it was misconstrued. And I watched it, and I got a completely different message from it.

B (49:17)

Yeah, when you watched the whole episode.

A (49:18)

When I watched the whole episode, I got a completely different message. He was not telling women to accept nothing. But what he was saying is understanding. When someone meets you at your worth, your worth may not be a dollar amount.

C (49:29)

Exactly.

A (49:30)

You know what I'm saying? That's what I took from it.

C (49:32)

Yeah.

A (49:32)

But I also do understand when people respond to things, it's often a projection of what they're going through, even without comments.

C (49:38)

Right.

A (49:38)

Someone may say something crazy in our comments. In the past, I'd be like, is this person problem? Why they. But now it's like, man, I wonder what that person has been through, that that's what they received from that. You know what I'm saying?

B (49:49)

It's a good perspective.

C (49:50)

Yeah.

A (49:50)

It's like, dang. Sometimes I look at the come, so I'm like, man, that person must really be hurting. And sometimes I really want to reach out.

B (49:57)

You know what I'm saying?

A (49:57)

Yeah. Like, what's going on? I hope that men in particular understand that you are not defined by your wallet.

C (50:07)

Yeah.

B (50:07)

Yep. You know what I'm saying?

A (50:09)

You're not defined by what you can provide for a woman financially, but you are defined by the type of peace you can provide for your family.

B (50:18)

And I think a lot of times men put more on themselves than what the woman actually needs from them.

A (50:22)

Facts.

B (50:22)

You have this list like, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And she's like, no, this is. I need this, and you're not doing this.

A (50:26)

Crystal, I'm gonna tell you right now, as much as I used to make jokes, because this is what people need to understand, too. A lot of our content was out of jest. And I used to make jokes, but my wife wanted this big wedding, and da, da, da, da. I wanted a big wedding because I wanted to prove to everybody else that type of man I was, that I could provide that type of wedding for my wife. And it takes maturity to get like, you know what, Deval? That wasn't her. That was you the whole time. You bought her the big ring, you bought her the shoes, you Wanted to get her these things. And then when you couldn't, you then blamed her.

C (51:00)

Yeah.

A (51:00)

Because, like, you made me buy these things. She never, never, never made me do anything.

C (51:05)

Wow.

A (51:06)

And I hope young men take from that, that there's more that you can provide a woman than just a paycheck. Like, there's so much more. You and I talk about this all the time. You're going through your dating journey and me being married. We talk about what? Cause sometimes even now, I'm gonna turn 40. I'm like, see, man, I don't know what. Help me understand what K may be going through. And then you'll just be like, well, Deval, have you ever thought about this? And I'm like, no, no, I never thought about that. I never, ever thought about that. And then I'm just like, I still have a lot to learn at 40.

C (51:43)

Yeah.

A (51:43)

And I'm just open to it. I want to learn. I just want to. I want to continue to just seek knowledge and get a better understanding of what life is.

C (51:51)

I love that.

B (51:53)

Where do you see yourself in 5 to 10 years?

A (51:57)

5 to 10 years? I see myself headlining my own feature film with a production company. I see myself carving out time to spend six months guaranteed with my boys. Every year, I'm making a point to not ever get so involved in my career that I forget about them.

C (52:18)

Wow.

A (52:19)

And I realize that now, like, this past weekend had an audition to do. Nothing is more important to me than my boys.

C (52:25)

Yeah.

A (52:26)

I told my agent, I say, yo, I'm have to get that to you later. Jackson got a tournament. Kyron wants to get trained. Dakota got speech therapy. Kaz wants to do art, and I have to do those things. And you know what I learned? People will bend to what you need. You know what my agent said I can get you three more days.

B (52:41)

See?

C (52:41)

Yeah.

A (52:42)

You know what I'm saying? It's like, yo, so I can live in this entertainment industry and still be a family man. I could still take my wife on dates every weekend because I'm not filming in Bangladesh for a year and a half. Oh, okay.

B (52:54)

I can do that.

A (52:55)

I can do this. You know what I'm saying? I can do this. And that's what I want to do. I want to be not only one of the biggest actors of all time. I want to be one of the greatest fathers. I want my boys to be like my dad. Rock with me. And most importantly, I want to be that husband that my wife can say, he held us down. That's what I want.

C (53:15)

I Love that. Yes.

A (53:16)

How about you? Five years. Five years.

B (53:21)

Five years. Oh my goodness. In five years. Years. I want to be a successful businesswoman. I have some things that I'm working on. I want to, of course, star in my own movies. I want to executive produce. I want to direct.

A (53:34)

You will.

B (53:35)

I want to turn this into a talk show.

A (53:37)

You will? I come in here and see this, I'm like, God, this is already a talk show. This is.

B (53:42)

Thank you, Chris.

A (53:44)

You know how proud I am.

B (53:45)

Thank you so much.

A (53:46)

Like, we talk so much about what we want to do and then we just doing it. Little by little.

C (53:51)

We doing it. Yeah.

B (53:52)

That's what it's about. Execution.

A (53:54)

Do you want to find love?

B (53:56)

I do.

A (53:56)

You will?

B (53:57)

I do want to find love. I'm in a space. Oh, why my heart just like as soon as you say I went.

A (54:03)

Cuz I know you. You try to suppress me.

B (54:05)

I do.

C (54:06)

I felt that.

A (54:06)

You can't.

C (54:07)

Yeah, you can't.

A (54:08)

You love people so much. I watch you with all of your friends. I mean that shit. That's how we got close. You look out for everybody. He was looking out for me, Chris. You know, to be honest, people need to know. When I came here and I was trying to figure out things and do things for K when she was pregnant, you were my go to. You were my go to. You the one that got me to tell me how to get you down. Don't get K them bang clean. Get K them Cartier. She Carrying 10 months. You need to get this like you was.

C (54:40)

What are you doing, man?

A (54:41)

You love people so, so much that God. Remember I told you that God always got me? Yeah, I can tell God's favorites.

C (54:50)

Oh my gosh.

A (54:51)

God going to have you when you least expect it.

B (54:54)

I'm waiting on it, man.

A (54:55)

He's. He's going to have you when you and he going to be tall, dark and handsome. It's like you want. He probably going to play ball, but I'mma dunk on his ass. Zack attack. I see it for you though. I see it for.

B (55:07)

Appreciate that.

A (55:08)

You're too great. You're too great of a woman not to yo. You know that.

C (55:10)

Thank you, friend. I appreciate that.

A (55:12)

And then Cass and Dakota are gonna be the ring bearers.

B (55:16)

Yep, exactly.

A (55:16)

You know Cass love you to death.

B (55:18)

That's my. No. When, listen, him and Cairo, when I walked into K's dressing room at the live show.

A (55:24)

Yeah.

B (55:25)

When I say the way Kyra ran to me, he was like.

A (55:27)

Oh, yeah.

B (55:28)

I was like.

A (55:29)

And they haven't seen you in a while.

B (55:30)

Yeah, it's been a minute.

A (55:32)

You working?

C (55:32)

Working. Yeah.

A (55:34)

You know, that's why you haven't found love yet.

C (55:37)

Yeah.

A (55:38)

You focusing on what you focus on.

B (55:40)

And I'm okay with that.

C (55:41)

Yeah.

A (55:41)

I'm okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

C (55:43)

Yeah.

A (55:43)

It's not like you. Like, I don't believe age is really a thing. I understand. The biological clock for women is a real thing.

C (55:50)

Yeah.

A (55:50)

But with modern technology and with you taking care of your body the way you do, you'll be fine. If that's what you choose to have children, you know, because you may not want to.

C (55:58)

Yeah.

B (55:59)

Every day it's a different feeling.

A (56:00)

I'm like, I know we talk about.

B (56:01)

I see my little nephew, and I'll.

C (56:02)

Be like, oh, y'. All.

B (56:05)

When he go home. Okay.

A (56:07)

I see y' all stay with a toddler for too long. You be like, I ain't having no freaking kids, man. These kids are emotional terrorists. They are. Toddlers are no joke.

B (56:15)

Yes.

A (56:16)

Love is coming for you, though, baby.

B (56:18)

Thank you. I appreciate that.

A (56:19)

They coming for you. Come on, man. Come on. I love you. Thank you for this. You made me cry. You made me cry. I said I wasn't going to cry. She made me cry.

B (56:37)

Dear God, thank you so much for this day. Thank you for letting Deval make it here safely. Dear God, I ask that you just guide this interview or not interview, but it's a conversation between two friends. Let this conversation help others, inspire others and bring them closer to you. Dear God, and everything that we do, let him get where he needs to go safely. After this, in Jesus name we pray. Amen.

A (56:56)

Amen. Oh, God. Jesus.