The Psychedelic That’s Changing Lives: Addiction, Anxiety, Depression, Neurodegenerative Diseases & More

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Psychedelic That’s Changing Lives: Addiction, Anxiety, Depression, Neurodegenerative Diseases & More"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Keeping It Real: Conversations with Jillian Michaels
• Host: Jillian Michaels | Crossover Media Group
• Guest: Brian Hubbard, Executive Director of the American Ibogaine Initiative through the Reed Foundation
• Release Date: March 28, 2025

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1. Introduction to Ibogaine

In this emotionally charged episode, Jillian Michaels hosts Brian Hubbard to delve into the transformative potential of ibogaine—a naturally occurring psychedelic. Jillian sets the stage by expressing her profound reaction to the discussion, stating, “Today's episode is a powerful one. I didn't expect this to end in tears. This conversation about real-world change brings on tears at points, but out of hope and healing” (00:00).

2. Understanding Ibogaine

Origins and Traditional Use Brian Hubbard introduces ibogaine as an alkaloid derived from the iboga root, indigenous to West Africa, particularly Gabon and Cameroon. He explains its cultural significance among the bowitis people, emphasizing its role in spiritual and religious ceremonies. “The bowitis treat the iboga root as the mother pearl of their entire civilization” (02:22).

Initial Discovery in Addiction Treatment The conversation shifts to the historical use of ibogaine in addiction treatment, highlighting Howard Lotsoff’s groundbreaking experience in 1962. After battling heroin dependency, Lotsoff’s single ibogaine treatment eradicated his desire for heroin without withdrawal symptoms, marking a miraculous outcome. This discovery paved the way for decades of observational studies, revealing ibogaine’s unparalleled ability to interrupt opioid dependence swiftly. “Ibogaine as an alkaloid has the unique ability to completely resolve physiological opioid dependence within an accelerated time frame” (04:54).

3. Ibogaine's Therapeutic Potential

Treatment of Opioid Dependence Brian elaborates on ibogaine’s efficacy in treating not only opioid addiction but also dependencies on cocaine, methamphetamine, and alcohol. He underscores its role as an “all-purpose addiction interrupter,” providing individuals with the physiological freedom to rebuild their lives devoid of substance dependence.

Neuroregenerative Properties Discussing recent advancements, Brian highlights ibogaine’s neurotherapeutic capabilities, which include regenerating brain tissue—a feat modern science has yet to achieve with other treatments. “Ibogaine is the most sophisticated medication on the planet with its neuroregenerative properties only recently being discovered” (08:00).

Impact on Veterans: Stanford Study Case A pivotal part of the discussion centers on a Stanford University study involving 30 U.S. Special Forces veterans suffering from PTSD and traumatic brain injury. After a single ibogaine treatment at the Ambio Clinic in Mexico, the veterans exhibited remarkable brain restoration on MRIs, with white matter growth and significant reversal of brain age. Brian shares his emotional reaction: “When the data was first run, Dr. Williams sent his research team back to the drawing board because he believed the results to be in error… The results were unbelievable” (10:29).

4. Comparison with Other Psychedelics

Brian distinguishes ibogaine from other classical psychedelics like psilocybin, ayahuasca, and peyote. Unlike these substances, which are often dissociative and used recreationally, ibogaine requires strict medical supervision due to its potential cardiac risks. “Ibogaine is different on several fronts… there is a very real cardiac risk that comes with ibogaine treatment” (32:26).

5. Legal Challenges and Advocacy

Current Legality and Challenges Ibogaine is classified as a Schedule I controlled substance in the United States, deemed to have no therapeutic benefit and a high potential for abuse—claims Brian vehemently disputes. He criticizes the legal system for prioritizing chronic treatments over curative options like ibogaine. “The classification of ibogaine as a substance that has no therapeutic benefit is an absolute total insult to the truth” (60:44).

Efforts to Change Status in Texas and Nationwide Brian outlines ongoing legislative efforts in Texas, spearheaded by former Governor Rick Perry and supported by organizations like the Reed Foundation and Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions. Texas House Bill 3717 aims to allocate $50 million towards ibogaine’s FDA approval process, matched by a private drug developer. He urges listeners to support this initiative by contacting their state representatives: “There will be the proper due celebration about the result that's been achieved for this person” (63:42).

Audience Action Steps Brian emphasizes three key actions for listeners:

1. Spread the Word: Share information about ibogaine’s benefits with friends and family.
2. Advocate Legally: Encourage elected officials to reschedule ibogaine to facilitate research and medical use.
3. Support Legislative Efforts: Specifically, support Texas’s legislative initiatives by reaching out to state representatives (64:21).

6. Personal Experiences of Brian Hubbard

Brian shares deeply personal accounts of his and his wife’s experiences with ibogaine. He recounts his initial skepticism and subsequent transformation after undergoing two ibogaine treatments:

• Physical and Emotional Transformation: Brian describes the intense physical experience, including ataxia and vomiting, followed by profound emotional and cognitive restoration. “The anxiety that I have carried with me my entire life has all been put completely to bed following that ibogaine experience” (76:25).
• Impact on Family: His wife, Jo Alice, successfully discontinued her SSRI use after ibogaine treatment, gaining emancipation from her psychotropic medication. Brian reflects on the generational impact of addiction and mental health struggles within his family, highlighting ibogaine’s role in their healing journey (84:33).

7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with Brian’s heartfelt plea for support and understanding of ibogaine’s potential:

• Spiritual and Autonomy Benefits: Brian emphasizes ibogaine’s capacity to reconnect individuals with their spiritual essence and restore personal autonomy. “Ibogaine should be an option for you… it gives you the opportunity to explore who you are” (30:34).
• Call to Action: He reiterates the urgency of integrating ibogaine into mainstream medical practice to address widespread issues like addiction and neurodegenerative diseases. “The time is now. And if we're going to lay it on the line, we're going to lay it on the line now” (83:18).

Jillian expresses her deep respect and emotional response to the conversation, acknowledging the transformative power of ibogaine and committing to support the cause.

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Notable Quotes:

• Brian Hubbard (04:54): “Ibogaine as an alkaloid has the unique ability to completely resolve physiological opioid dependence within an accelerated time frame.”
• Brian Hubbard (10:29): “The results were unbelievable.”
• Brian Hubbard (32:26): “There is a very real cardiac risk that comes with ibogaine treatment.”
• Brian Hubbard (60:44): “The classification of ibogaine as a substance that has no therapeutic benefit is an absolute total insult to the truth.”
• Brian Hubbard (84:33): “The anxiety that I have carried with me my entire life has all been put completely to bed following that ibogaine experience.”
• Brian Hubbard (83:18): “The time is now. And if we're going to lay it on the line, we're going to lay it on the line now.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Ibogaine’s Multifaceted Benefits: Beyond addiction treatment, ibogaine shows promise in addressing anxiety, depression, PTSD, Parkinson’s, Alzheimer's, and other neurodegenerative diseases through its unique neuroregenerative properties.
• Strict Medical Oversight Required: Due to potential cardiac risks, ibogaine treatment must be administered in controlled medical environments.
• Legal Barriers Hindering Progress: Current U.S. laws impede the integration of ibogaine into mainstream medicine, despite substantial anecdotal and emerging scientific evidence supporting its efficacy.
• Urgent Need for Advocacy: Legislative initiatives, particularly in Texas, are pivotal in advancing ibogaine’s acceptance and availability. Audience members are encouraged to actively participate in advocacy efforts.

Final Note: This episode serves as a compelling exploration of ibogaine’s potential to revolutionize treatment for some of society’s most pressing health issues. Through emotional narratives and expert insights, Jillian Michaels and Brian Hubbard illuminate the urgent need for broader acceptance and integration of this powerful plant medicine.

Transcript

[Jillian Michaels]

Keeping it real with Jillian Michaels. Anxiety, depression, trauma, ptsd, or even debilitating physical conditions like Parkinson's disease or Alzheimer's. What if there was a plant medicine with the potential to not just treat symptoms, but to help heal the root causes? In today's episode, we're diving into the powerful and often misunderstood world of ibogaine, a naturally occurring psychedelic known for its ability to interrupt addiction, reset the brain, and open the door to profound transformation. Joining me is Brian Hubbard, the executive director of the American Ibogaine Initiative through the Reed Foundation. Brian is a trailblazer in public policy and community reform. His leadership has shaped reforms in everything from disability policy to mental health. And now he's turning his focus to the therapeutic potential of ibogaine. In this conversation, we explore why ibogaine may be one of the most important in our fight against suffering and what it will take to bring it safely and responsibly to the mainstream. Today's episode is a powerful one. I didn't expect this to end in tears. This conversation about real world change brings on tears at points, but out of hope and healing. And it's arguably my favorite show to date. I hope it moves you like it moved me. Here we go. Keeping it Real with Jillian Michaels. Keeping it real, real, real. Brian, I can't tell you how excited I am to have you here, so welcome.

[Brian Hubbard]

Thank you. It's a joy and a privilege.

[Jillian Michaels]

Oh, my gosh. So for everybody watching, little sidebar. When I first met you at a maha event in D.C. i cornered you and your wife because I am so obsessed with your work on ibogaine. And you showed me a video of a gentleman who had Parkinson's so severely that he couldn't get up out of his chair. And after ibogaine therapy, you showed me a video of him walking.

[Brian Hubbard]

Yes.

[Jillian Michaels]

Let's start with, what is ibogaine and where does it come from?

[Brian Hubbard]

I learned after I heard the word ibogaine for the very first time on July 29th of 22.

[Jillian Michaels]

Remember the moment.

[Brian Hubbard]

Oh, it's chills. Everything that has happened since that day has just been unbelievable. And it's a day that will be in my mind for as long as I have one. Ibogaine is an alkaloid that is derived from three West African botanical sources. The mother plant is the iboga root. The iboga root is indigenous to West Africa, primarily Gabon. It translates also into Cameroon and other places in close proximity. It has been used in West African rituals for a group of folks called the bowitis for centuries as part of their spiritual and cultural traditions. I learned recently, and I can't pronounce the exact word, the bowitis treat the iboga root as the mother pearl of their entire civilization. And when it comes to its use in cultural and religious ceremony, they have a word that they use to describe it which translates in English to eatin God.

[Jillian Michaels]

Wow.

[Brian Hubbard]

It has been recognized as a profound facilitator of an internal experience that has profound impact on the individual who receives it. Thus its place in bowedi culture and religious practice. In the late, in the. In the early 1960s, there was a gentleman by the name of Howard Lotsoff who had had heroin dependency for several years. He was part of a cultural movement back then that was referred to as the beatniks, Kind of the, of course, hippie precursors.

[Jillian Michaels]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brian Hubbard]

So Mr. Lotso was kind of an omnivorous substance user and he found himself in an environment where someone had some ibogaine in the 60s. This was in 1962.

[Jillian Michaels]

You know, the only reason I interrupt you here for a second is because I've never heard of this until now. But everybody knows they were all dropping acid, drop in and drop out. So I'm really surprised. But was it prevalent then and somehow got lost in the mix?

[Brian Hubbard]

It was not prevalent. It was recently. That was its first discovery by someone who was within the addiction drug use.

[Jillian Michaels]

Sorry, keep going.

[Brian Hubbard]

So in 1962, Howard Lotsoff, with his years long heroin dependency, came into contact with Abigail. And he took it because he just was curious as to what it would do on the other side of his experience. What he noticed the most was that his desire for heroin was gone and he did not ever take heroin again. His desire for it was gone. And as importantly, he did not experience any sort of withdrawal syndrome whatsoever, despite his years of intensive heroin use. It was unheard of and it was a miraculous outcome. So this started ibogaine's journey through the consciousness of the United States. Specifically, as Howard Lotsoff and his wife Norma, along with friends of theirs, Dana Beale, There is a guy by the name whose last name is Cisco, Dr. Kenneth Alper, Dr. Deborah Mashin, others over the course of decades performed a variety of observational field studies in ibogaine's application to opioid dependency. And what the result, net total has been of what I would describe as research that is decades wide and mountains high, is that ibogaine as an alkaloid has the unique ability to. To completely resolve physiological opioid dependence within an accelerated time frame, meaning 36 to 48 hours for 80% of individuals who take it but one time, that number goes to 97%. If an individual receives a second supportive dose in the event they are continuing to experience withdrawal symptoms after that first treatment. It is an extraordinary compound. What has been learned recently going back to, you know, the 2020 tens forward, is that ibogaine appears to have advanced neurotherapeutic properties that regenerate brain tissue. Something that nothing known to modern science can do. This discovery has occurred within the context of US Special Forces veterans who have been engaged in post 911 conflicts, whether it's Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere, who have home with both the physical and psychological wounds of war. As they have sought treatment from the Veterans Administration with the blunt instruments of pharmacology that they have with which to treat these complex conditions, many of these veterans have not found those treatments to be effective. Not only have they not found them to be effective, but they have found themselves trapped in a cycle by which they take medications that don't resolve their problems while producing a series of side effects that essentially anesthetized the soul and slowly euthanize the body. And as these veterans have struggled with profound symptoms of post traumatic stress treatment, resistant anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation, they as a last ditch resort have made what in their minds, and in many cases has been the insane decision to travel to clinics that operate south of the American border in Mexico to receive treatment with this exhaust sounds too good to be true. Substance called ibogaine. At this point, thousands of U.S. special Forces veterans whose next stop is the graveyard have gone to Mexico in a last ditch effort to save their lives and through the process of what has been treatment outcomes that are genuinely miraculous. A study was conducted by Stanford University and Stanford University and its research, Dr. Nolan Williams, essentially studied a cohort of 30 veterans who had traveled to a clinic south of Tijuana in Mexico called the Ambio Clinic to receive ibogaine treatment for symptoms of post traumatic stress and traumatic brain injury. The results of that Stanford study illustrate that a single ibogaine treatment brought the symptomatology of those two conditions into almost complete remission for the cohort of 30 veterans who were studied and followed after the delivery of a single treatment. Radiographic studies.

[Jillian Michaels]

Give me for context, what's a radiographic study?

[Brian Hubbard]

An mri.

[Jillian Michaels]

Oh God. Okay.

[Brian Hubbard]

A scan of your, you know, anatomy shows us what's going on with it.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it.

[Brian Hubbard]

So as part of this study, Dr. Williams had performed functional MRIs before and after treatment for each of these veterans and his research team at Stanford comprised a database that was an algorithmic reality of brain age, covering the entire human lifespan through late adulthood. And this is a database that has hundreds of thousands of images of healthy adult brains so that there can be a baseline for what the healthy brain anatomy looks like, how it compares to the traumatic brain injury conditions that these veterans had. And then after the ibogaine treatment, what, if any, physiological changes occurred within the brain to explain, of course, the symptomological.

[Jillian Michaels]

Mechanism by which you're seeing these insane results. Of course.

[Brian Hubbard]

Yes, ma'am. So the MRI's after a single Abigail treatment revealed the following things. And before I even get into what it revealed, when the data was first run, Dr. Williams sent his research team back to the drawing board because he believed the results to be in error, because the results produced were unbelievable. So he said, this cannot be correct. Delete everything, redo everything, and let's see if these results are replicated. And they were. The results were these. The white matter that covers the surface of the brain, it's the highway across which all of our thoughts and impulses travel grew and thickened in size. Within the brains of every one of these veterans, the centers of the brain responsible for emotional regulation and executive functioning grew in size. The average reversal of brain age was one and a half years. With a cohort of four veterans in their brains reverse in age by almost five years before.

[Jillian Michaels]

I'm sorry, one treatment.

[Brian Hubbard]

One treatment. One treatment.

[Jillian Michaels]

One treatment is one dose or the two doses equal, one treatment.

[Brian Hubbard]

Well, when ibogaine is delivered by the two clinics with which I'm familiar, one being the Ambio clinic that that participated in the Stanford study sponsored by Vets, which is Veterans Exploring treatment Solutions. Amber and Marcus Capone founded that organization. There is another clinic in Cancun called Beyond, and that's B E O N D. Those are the two clinics that operate at volume, and they're the ones with which I am the most familiar. They deliver ibogaine by capsule and the amount and the dosage is determined by body weight. So when a person goes in for an ibogaine treatment, it is done in. In a clinically controlled medical setting. The individual is given capsules that contain ibogaine and the dosage is body weight dependent.

[Jillian Michaels]

Understood.

[Brian Hubbard]

And a person then lays down in bed and within about an hour, they may start to hear like a little buzzing sound in their ears. And then there is the onset of what is called ataxia, which is essentially a state of semiparalysis where there is, with the exertion of force through your limbs A tremulousness that prevents you from essential able to support your own body weight. It is a very physically demanding, taxing and often unpleasant experience. But despite that, the end result for almost everyone who takes it for a life threatening condition is well worth that difficulty. And we go back to these veterans with traumatic brain injury. The MRIs before treatment were able to reveal the dark spots within the brain which were no longer alive because of concussion blasts. And the other experiences veterans had had which produced the injuries. The MRIs performed after an ibogaine treatment revealed that all of those dark spots were gone and their brains had been fully restored. Dr. Williams has said, and I agree, that ibogaine is the most sophisticated medication on the planet with its neuroregenerative properties only recently being discovered after over 60 of application to unresolvable substance dependence that doesn't just confine itself to opioids, but extends out to cocaine, methamphetamine, and if we're talking about numbers of individuals impacted by substance dependency, alcohol ibogaine is an all purpose addiction interrupter. It is not and now and forever more cure, but what it does is give an individual a window with which to rebuild a life that is fundamentally different from that that they had before during their years of use by virtue of the physiological restoration of the brain it produces. For someone whose substance dependency keeps that brain from working the way that it's supposed to, ibogaine gives a human being the very best window of opportunity to begin a new life of recovered independence and autonom free of physiological substance dependence. What they do with that opportunity is up to them and the choices that they make with their own mind, hands and feet. But they will be able to make those choices free from the ravages of physiological dependence if they receive an ibogaine treatment.

[Jillian Michaels]

I have about 50 questions based off of that, hence the notes that I was taking on top of the 50 I have for you. But let's, let's start with first question, the physical piece. I have interviewed people about psilocybin or ayahuasca and they're using it to help individuals quit smoking or, you know, they have limited studies they can do because of the fda, as we know, and every single study has to be approved and it's a bit of a nightmare, so it's very slow going. Nevertheless, great success with smoking secession. Matt Johnson, who's now at Shepherd Pratt and I had talked about this and it sounded to me very psychological that you are rewiring the way that they think about the addiction. And there's pre therapy and post therapy. And they have to go into it with very specific intentions. But you talked about breaking a physiological addiction to heroin. Where we have all seen the movies like Basketball Diaries, you know, where these individuals go through withdrawals that bring them close to death and last for friggin days and days on end. Does this work in both ways, as in changing the way you think as well as doing something to your body so that you can zoom through dependence to a drug?

[Brian Hubbard]

It is one of the, and perhaps it may be the only medication that I can think of that addresses all aspects of the human being. That being the mind, the body and the soul. And I am an absolute concrete believer in the reality of the human soul. Regardless of what one's positions may be of what exists on the other side of this life. The physiology of, of an ibogaine experience sets the stage for the psychology of what follows the ibogaine experience.

[Jillian Michaels]

Can you elaborate on that?

[Brian Hubbard]

If you have an individual who has spent years empowered by chemical logical substance dependence, they are experiencing the effects of what I would describe as a neurochemical brain injury. And we'll take opioid dependency as an example. And I'm going to have to confess that what I will describe is a mindset that I had for many years before I started wading into a deeper understanding of the science behind opioid addiction. I was one who thought for the longest time that a drug dependent individual was somebody who made a decision to be that way. That their drug addiction was a symptom of profound moral failure by the individual who was dependent. That if they could just be preached out loud enough, condemned hard enough, thrown in jail long enough, you know, if they got that rod of correction brought on them frequently and with enough intensity, they would eventually be broken. I was within that moral failure mindset for many years until I became better educated. And the way in which I became educated was an individual sat down with me to explain the impact of opioid ingestion on the human brain. It's gonna get a little technical, so please bear with me.

[Jillian Michaels]

I may have some questions along the way.

[Brian Hubbard]

Please go for it.

[Jillian Michaels]

To put it in 101. Just pretend I'm 5 and now take it from there.

[Brian Hubbard]

You got it. All of our most baseline survival behaviors as human beings, the drive to eat, to drink, to fight, to flight and to procreate, are rooted in our dopamine response to the stimuli we encounter, right? It is our most basic survival chemical. So for instance, within the act of procreation, the human body has at its maximum dopamine production capacity, a capacity of 125 nanograms per deciliter. That is the most the human brain can produce on its own, in response to the greatest physical pleasure most people would endorse as having the ability to experience.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it.

[Brian Hubbard]

The brain's dopamine response to opioid exposure is a response of almost 1,000 nanograms per deciliter, almost 10 times greater than that of the act of procreation. So when we encounter individuals who have been opioid dependent, many of whom were treated for legitimate medical conditions, with high powered opioids that in some cases, think OxyContin, have been engineered to maximize the propensity for habituation, and others who have just simply come into contact with it as a method of self medicating their misery. Whatever the circumstances for entry, once they're there, they are physiologically captured by a dynamic by which the only way in which the brain will produce dopamine and satiate the desire is to take ever greater dosages of opioids.

[Jillian Michaels]

Right.

[Brian Hubbard]

And the inability to get past that is rooted in the fact that when the person stops taking opioids, the brain's ability to produce its own dopamine and serotonin is completely shut down. It takes the brain almost 18 months before it can begin to produce dopamine and serotonin, and can take up to three to four years before those levels are restored to pre opioid normalcy.

[Jillian Michaels]

Three to four years. So imagine trying to hold on for three to four years of not breaking and tolerating that suffering.

[Brian Hubbard]

So even when a person gets past that initial, you know, three to four days of violent illness associated with withdrawal, there are days and weeks and months of lethargy and listlessness and depression and just a generalized, deep seated malaise that impairs the ability to function because of the lack of dopamine and serotonin. For most people who have had substance use issues, there have been a lot of decisions driven by the compulsion that have created great damage. And that damage relates to the reality that when a person is engaged in what appears to be depraved criminality in order to secure supply, what we are actually seeing are the symptoms of a profound neurochemical brain injury from which they cannot recover because we have no available treatments to restore that brain. When you take the person who's struggling with withdrawal and then you throw on the unbelievably complex myriad problems associated with the legal, financial and logistical complications of rebuilding your life from scratch, you have almost guaranteed that the vast majority of people who are struggling with neurochemical brain impairment are going to fail because they cannot begin to cope with the avalanche of difficulties that are embedded within systems of government employment, finance and just the ability to live because of the in which they cannot, with coherency and linear determination, get it done. Because of the impairment, when a person receives ibogaine, their dopamine and serotonin production is restored to their pre opioid exposure levels within 36 to 48 hours of that first single treatment. And again, that's a reality that.

[Jillian Michaels]

Sorry, just a second.

[Brian Hubbard]

It's okay.

[Jillian Michaels]

36 to 48 hours, the brain goes back to baseline. Pre opioids is what you say.

[Brian Hubbard]

That's exactly right.

[Jillian Michaels]

And without it it's three to four years.

[Brian Hubbard]

That is exactly right.

[Jillian Michaels]

Brian, this sounds insane.

[Brian Hubbard]

It does sound insane. It sounds too good to be true.

[Jillian Michaels]

Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, really.

[Brian Hubbard]

Except for the fact that it is real. It's as real as you and I sitting here talking about it. Well, that's one of the great mysteries. What we call the mechanism of action which the navigation that produces. The result is one that is still mysterious. We just know it does it and it does it in dramatic fashion for the vast majority of people who take but a single treatment. Now again, I would not want to mislead your audience. This is not a now and forevermore cure. What it does is produce a profound physiological restoration of an individual.

[Jillian Michaels]

Oh, I see. You're removing this crippling impact of brain chemistry that goes on for three to four years where they can never get back to a baseline. And in order to feel even the littlest bit normal and not probably suicidal, they need those opioids.

[Brian Hubbard]

That's correct.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it. Can I ask one more question before we continue? Let's presume I am not and I want to explore all the other uses for this, of course, over the. Over the course of our time together. But I'm looking at addiction from a broader perspective. So imagine I'm not an opioid. I'm not an opioid addict, but I am a sex addict, I am a food addict, I am a smoker. And my, my understanding of addiction obviously is the psychological component. The addiction is providing you with something so significant that at one point or another it meant your psychological survival. So for me, in my work, helping people break a food addiction, let's say one that we've all heard before, an individual was molested as a child. They've put on weight to desexualize As a defense mechanism, whether they're conscious of it or not. But what is the food providing that them? Well, in their unconscious mind, it's a defense structure against further abuse. Trying to help with that piece is one thing, but then of course, it's also smashing the dopamine center of their brain. Not in the way opioids do, but it is designed to do so by big food companies and their team of multidisciplinary scientists that design the food to do exactly that. Like a fraction of what opioids do. But nevertheless, do you think or have you seen ibogaine work on other addictions outside of alcohol and OxyContin, for example?

[Brian Hubbard]

So you're asking the question of its application to behavior driven addictions where people get into particular modes of living their behavioral as opposed to substance driven?

[Jillian Michaels]

I guess so.

[Brian Hubbard]

Okay. Based on. And keep in mind, as I talk about folks that I have heard from, I will always qualify these responses by saying that these are anecdotal. These are individualized circumstances that have been conveyed. As I've gone through this process of discovery. Many people who have gone for substance use treatment, who have companion behavioral compulsions rooted in trauma experiences and other things will come away and say, hey, I had this other problem, a gambling addiction, a sex addiction, name it.

[Jillian Michaels]

If it has a behavioral root, yes, yes, yes.

[Brian Hubbard]

And while I didn't intend for that to be resolved, it resolved it. I no longer compulsively watch pornography. I'm no longer getting on my online gambling app. It has taken care of not just the substance issues, but the behavioral compulsions as well. It is an all purpose addiction interrupter because of its impact on the brain's dopamine center. And what that impact is and how it is produced is something that that is going to be the subject of years of scientific research in order to understand the how and the why. But we do know that it is a reality. A lot of people, not just in American society, but generally look to the sky and ask the Creator, where is the help from heaven? Where is our miracle to bring us to a different place than where we find ourselves? And I think as we look around at the reality that we're discussing, we don't need to be looking for manna from heaven, because the miracle that we have is growing right from the ground. And it's been there for centuries. And it's been there in order for human beings to have opportunities for physical, mental and spiritual restoration as engineered in nature. Now, I know that that sounds far out there. And if 30 year old me could hear almost 50 year old me speaking, he'd look back and say what in the world happened to that guy? Through a combination of hard knocks, retrospection and deliberate education, I am very pleased and satisfied to be able to articulate these truths because they are truths and it's wonderful to have the opportunity to sit down with you and illuminate their reality.

[Jillian Michaels]

Brian, I want to go back for a second because I'm wondering if maybe some of the audience, of course, obviously myself included, have heard about treating things with psilocybin. That's been out there for a few years now, hearing about that and hearing a little bit about other things of people taking ketamine. I don't know if it's because it's 17, I had a terrible experience outside of a nightclub and I would rather stick needles in my eyes than even hear the word ketamine again. And I appreciate that's not the application, but nevertheless, like you hear about these different types of psychedelics and what have you, even acid, I don't know who's applying that or studying it, but ayahuasca being another one. One thing that seems to be a through line without question is that where you have a plant based medicine in a region. Peyote, the desert, Native Americans, Ayahuasca, a root and I think a troll brought together by indigenous people in the Amazon. Mushrooms obviously, who knows what indigenous people were utilizing these. I've seen it in other parts of South America, so on and so forth. It seems as though God or nature or however we want to label it has put these plant medicines around the globe and indigenous people seem to use these medicines all in the same way, way, the same capacity. They liken it as a connection to God. I've heard they even put Iowa, they give newborn babies sips of ayahuasca and have ceremonies for 12 year olds with it. In looking at these different medications, what are the similarities and what are the differences? Let's just take psilocybin, ayahuasca, I don't know, peyotes, far less frequent. So an ibogaine. Same, different. What do you see there?

[Brian Hubbard]

I would group psilocybin, ayahuasca and mescaline, peyote and other cacti from which mescalines derived and group them within the umbrella of what we would call the classical psychedelics. These are the ones that everybody knows, you know, they create conditions within the brain that are often what I would describe as dissociative, meaning they're going to get a hold of you and they're going take you where they're going to take you. In terms of the psychoactive experience they produce, it is my understanding that ayahuasca has, and I've never had an ayahuasca experience. It's one about which I'm highly curious.

[Jillian Michaels]

I've done it once. I've done it once.

[Brian Hubbard]

It's very visual, it is very intelligent, it is very profound and beautiful. It can also be very disciplinarian and harsh, depending on.

[Jillian Michaels]

That's exactly what it did to me. And I wanted the opposite. And it was like, no, we're not going this way and you don't make the rules. And it was like a disciplinary parent.

[Brian Hubbard]

And there's no choice in it.

[Jillian Michaels]

Nope.

[Brian Hubbard]

When it's there, you're going to get what it's going to give you.

[Jillian Michaels]

That's right.

[Brian Hubbard]

And that applies with psilocybin. That applies with peyote. Slash masculine. They're going to take you where they're going to take you in terms of that introspective journey, and you're not going to have any volitional control. But to go through what it's going to take you through. Ibogaine is distinct in the following way. I would add also that each of those have the capacity to produce a very ecstatic, blissful, happy feeling, if that is what it's going to deliver for you once it happens. But it is something that negates the person's volitional action within it. It's just going to. It's going to do what it's going to do.

[Jillian Michaels]

Yep.

[Brian Hubbard]

Ibogaine is different on several fronts. Number one, you have to be in a scenario whereby you are at all times medically monitored. There is a very real cardiac risk that comes with ibogaine treatment. And that risk is manifest as the propensity for the time in between heartbeats to slow if there is a misadministration of dosage. So if you give someone too much, it can cause a slowing of the heart rate to the point of stoppage, cardiac arrest and death. Scary. It is a very serious medication and it requires the delivery by medical professionals who know what they're doing, or, in the case of those with indigenous knowledge, the administration by those spiritual masters within the cultural context who know what they're doing. You need expert hands to. To do it. Number two, it is not dissociative. While an individual may close their eyes and begin to see images that are rooted in their life and who they are, if at any time they don't want to experience it. They just have to open their eyes. If I were to sit here and receive ibogaine within an hour of it taking full effect, I could sit up in my bed where I would be laying, and I could be as conversant with you as coherently as I am right now. You are at all times within yourself. You are in full volitional control of your mind, if not your body, because you can't walk and sometimes you're throwing up. But from a cognitive perspective, you're oriented to time, place, and people around you at all times. It gives you at all times a choice to engage it for the introspective benefits that it can produce if you want it. It is a respecter of personal autonomy. And the only way that you will have that experience is if you close your eyes. The other thing that I would add is, while I understand ayahuasca is not necessarily recreational, Psilocybin can be, of course, certainly LSD can be, certainly MDMA can be. There is no recreational or party use for ibogaine. Most of your folks who are going to watch this or listen to it are going to say, I've never heard of this.

[Jillian Michaels]

Yeah.

[Brian Hubbard]

And the reason why is because you ain't going to have a party on ibogaine. There are no ibogaine raves. There's no ibogaine gatherings in the underground. If we think about the black market economy for everything for which there is a recreational application, there's a smuggling ring and there is an underground economy to distribute opium and poppies from Afghanistan, the coca leaf from South America, meth from pills bowled down in the backyard from the drugstore. Pick the substance that can produce a party and there's a black market. There is no black market for ibogaine. Nobody's going and raiding the west coast of Africa to bring the iboga root back to the United States for people to have ibogaine. Graves. And I'll tell folks, if your idea of a good time is being in a state of semi paralysis where you require assistance to make it to a bathroom and you're throwing up for 12 hours, then you're going to have a good damn time. But if that is not your idea of a party, you ain't going to have one, because that's what comes with the experience. It is going to lay you low physically, how it restores your mind and gives you the opportunity to explore who you are and the nature of the life you have led in the past and what you wish for it to be. In the future. And I would distill it in this way. And when we were going through the process of pursuing an effort in Kentucky that would have seen the state take a small percentage of its settlement funds to match with a drug developer to basically push it through the FDA's approval process as a breakthrough treatment for opioid dependence, I would say I began. Has three properties. Number one, it resolves physiological substance dependency within an accelerated timeframe. We've discussed that from a psychological perspective. Individuals who receive ibogaine come through the other side with a renewed, or perhaps for the first time, a sense of full ownership of their selves and their future, whereby they no longer view themselves as victims of compulsion or the prisoners of disease. They see themselves as fully independent actors whose lives will be defined by volitional choice as opposed to be driven by the prior compulsion rooted in their substance dependence. There's no greater gift that we can give someone, for the most part, except for the third one I'll articulate, than a sense of ownership over their life and destiny. If a person doesn't feel that they have any say so whatsoever in how their future plays out, you've got a hopeless and broken human being. And then, thirdly, the only thing which surpasses in my mind the physiological and psychological benefits of an ibogaine treatment is that which is endorsed by many people who receive the treatment as an absolute, concrete affirmation of their human divinity and their identity as a spiritual being who. Whose essence is connected to an eternal creator whose nature is that of almighty, unconditional love, and who also has a unique and special purpose for their life. In my opinion, at the root of all trauma and all addiction is profound spiritual affliction that is rooted in our disconnection from our individual divinity. And if making ibogaine available as an additional therapeutic option provides the choice for a human being to receive that affirmation, then we need to get about making it available as quickly as possible. And that's my position.

[Jillian Michaels]

I have so many questions. It's so hard to know where to start. Okay. Okay. So I also want to look at a few other routes of application. We've talked about addiction. I'm not addicted to anything, and yet I am compelled to want to try this. I wanted to try ayahuasca, and I think it's because I'm looking for what you just talked about. Like, I. I want to be closer in touch with that part of myself that maybe is divine or is a small sliver of God. You know, that if you believe in that if you believe in whether you have an organized religion or not. I've often thought like, the light that shines through me would be God, right? If God. If we were all stained glass windows, God would be the light that shines through them.

[Brian Hubbard]

Yes, ma'am.

[Jillian Michaels]

And I personally have wanted that connection and it's been harder for me to find. And I wonder if maybe the universe is like, you better start learning without these things. Mind you, I only did ayahuasca one. I took it twice. Not more than that, which is unfortunate. I wish that I had done a longer period of time now. Cause it was progressive in what it showed me. And I appreciated the fact that it felt like the first page of the first chapter of a book. And yet I have subsequently become fascinated with this and hence, you know, me attacking you and your wife at this event.

[Brian Hubbard]

It was a blissful attack.

[Jillian Michaels]

You, you're too kind. There's that element of it, that spiritual component that I wonder, somebody searching, somebody seeking, is that appropriate for them? And then I want to get to the cognitive element of Parkinson's and potentially Alzheimer's. I want to look at that piece too. Is there something here for everyone, the non addict and the person who isn't afflicted cognitively? Or is this like, Nope, it's not for you. Very specific, not a good time. Pretty serious drug. Like, unless you have these issues of cognitive affliction, brain damage or addiction, keep walking.

[Brian Hubbard]

So while it has very specific medical applications, it is also a medicine that is for everyone. Every human being has a story. Every human being has a burden that they carry within them, oftentimes unspoken, oftentimes all of their lives. Many people suffer great silent despair between the time they become a cognizant human being who can communicate all the way to the cemetery. At the end of a long life, it is not necessary because as indigenous folks have known for centuries, and as it pertains to ibogaine, we're talking about the. There is a spiritual reality to the human experience that we in the west have neglected to recognize and affirm. Western society has a number of things of which to be tremendously proud. The enlightenment that produced our founding fathers was one of the greatest revolutions in human thought and scientific discovery that has ever occurred. Its chief contribution was the elevation of empiricism, the development of the scientific method and driving broad based progress through empirical observations through which problems could be solved. The downside of empiricism is the complete neglect and failure to address the spiritual realities of the human condition. And I Think much of what we see in modern American and Western life where we have such tremendous material wealth and technological prowess paired with profound symptoms of broad based despair that are expressed through asphyxiating mortality statistics tied to what we call deaths of despair. And those are the combined fatalities of suicide, alcohol related disease and drug overdose. We live in an unbelievably advanced society, the most advanced that has ever been in human history from a wealth, material and technological perspective. We also live in a society that is suffering from an incredible degree of dehumanized dynamics that are hostile to individual identity. There has been a monumental failure of American institutions that are charged with fostering social cohesion and broad based progress for 30 years to address these things in any meaningful way. Having observed just the opioid epidemic, and I referenced the opioid epidemic, I carry about it independently. But it is the greatest symptom of the much larger problem that afflicts American society. And that is a spiritual problem rooted in our disconnection from our human divinity. Regardless of what one's position is on the existence of a higher power or an eternal God, here is the reality. The statistical likelihood of the human life that we have on this earth and the broader universe is incredibly we ourselves are comprised of elements that come from a supernova somewhere in a distant ancient past that has culminated in our ability to see, live, perceive, rejoice, cry, and have the full range of the beauty and poignancy of the human experience. That by itself is deserving of reverence for every individual who is alive, regardless of what one's position is on the existence of God. Or not. And I would add this before we get too far down the road. I happen to be a believer. I happen to be a believer who recognizes that as a finite person, it would be folly for me to try to define within a well structured box or container the infinite. I mean, any human attempt to distill God is folly. But there's no question in my mind that God is real. And the greatest and most sacred gift God has given us is that a free will. So while I am a believer, those who are not are to be accorded the utmost respect and reverence in their exercise of that choice. Because that is the most sacred gift given to us by our Maker. Is that a free will to think, believe and be who we choose to be and the only person to whom we are accountable on the other side of this life, life is God. Now, that weighted us into some deep water, deeper water than what you intended.

[Jillian Michaels]

But that's. But that's exactly what I intend. Because truthfully for me, when I comprehend these psychedelics and I have not, as I mentioned, I've not done it. I've done did my have done mushrooms recreationally in a very small amount, maybe a couple times in my life starting in my teen years. I have a huge respect and also I think a healthy fear and feel very strongly that these things need to be administered in the kind of environments that you're speaking of. And in doing ayahuasca the one time it was with an individual who's done this for 25 years and so on and so forth. And I went into it with very specific intentions. That said, there is a search without question. I look at these things as a tool to one, help the people that I've been trying to help my whole career. And I see the flaw in diet and exercise. In other words, like of course they work physiologically. Of course I can take excess body fat off your body. If we give you less calories, fats, stored energy. If I put less energy in and I move you more, you use more energy, you'll lose the body fat. What I can't fix is here it's the put the weight back on problem. And I don't think GLP wants are the answer for a host of reasons. And it's a different show. That said, the second piece is my own personal, personal obsession with it due to that desired connection for elevating my myself on the planet, being a better person, channeling better my higher calling. And the third piece is also deeply personal because I have an Alzheimer's gene. I have an APOE4 gene. There is no question that this is something that will get me. I've noticed it throughout my life. I've had add. I don't remember things, really never have. There's definitely an issue there. And I appreciate, you know, one of my greatest fears is going from this mom that my, you know, my kids were like mom was larger than life. Mom could do anything. Remember that story about mom and it's like when she had us on the jet skis in the middle of the ocean. Like that's how I want them to remember me. I don't want it to be I saw this woman go from here to pooping her pants and not knowing my name. And we've just seen this huge scandal with all this fake research regarding Alzheimer's medications that came out. Max Lugova did a great piece on it just a few months ago. And I'm looking at this wondering after the video you showed me of the guy with Parkinson's walking and Brian, I've tried everything, peptides, different things and I noticed, I notice a bit of a difference with regard to sharpness and recall. But I'm looking at this also in that capacity and now I want to move into that. I have an aunt who has Parkinson's and my mom was like, I, you know, tell me when this is coming out. You know, she told her about you and your work and the video you showed me. Let's look at it from that perspective. I mean, I think cognitive decline is four or five on top killers. You got metabolic disease, heart disease, cancer. And then I think it's, I think it's four, I think it's the next one of dementia of some sort. What do you see here for that? Because what am I doing? Am I sending a 70 year old to go do ibogaine? Am I starting ibogaine at 50 and doing it once a year? Like if that's the protocol that I. Or what is the protocol? If that's something I'm looking to address. And what have you seen in that field? Talk to me about that whole Parkinson's dementia cognitive function piece.

[Brian Hubbard]

So what we're talking about is the new undiscovered frontier that is just now coming into view. The video that I have shown you is of a gentleman who lives in Germany. At the time the video was taken, he had had Parkinson's disease, diagnosed at age 41 and he was 51 years old. At the end of, of a 10 year process, he was bedridden. As a last resort to restore some functionality, he underwent a surgical procedure called deep brain stimulation. This is a procedure by which holes are drilled through your cranium and electrodes are placed directly on the areas of the brain that are the dopamine centers. And the objective is to create electrical stimulation of the dopamine centers to produce dopamine so that the person can regain some functionality. Because Parkinson's has a profound impact on the dopamine system and the symptomatology that comes from it is rooted in that system's dysfunction. So after deep brain stimulation, this gentleman was able to get out of bed, but he had, as you saw, no volitional control over his body movements. He could sit up in a wheelchair, he could stand, but his ability to actually walk and to control his actions was non existent. So after 30 days of the experience following deep brain stimulation, this gentleman signed up for euthanasia services which are available in Germany. He was ready to go. And a researcher by the name of Dr. Tobias Emery, who is associated with the University of Zurich in Switzerland, connected him to an ibogaine protocol that was one which saw a weekly administration of an upwardly titrated daily dosage. At the end of four weeks, this gentleman was able to stand, was able to walk, and was able to ride a bike just as a normal person. The restoration of his functionality was nothing short of a Lazarus like coming out of the cave resemble produced by this treatment. The first time I saw the video, I literally cried because of how profound this gentleman's restoration was. And I remember looking at my wife standing in the kitchen and I said, this needs to be available now. When we think about the millions of people who are imprisoned within themselves, Just this one clinical condition and the way in which it can produce dramatic restoration is justification enough. If we can get a COVID vaccine out in eight months, we need to be figuring out how to get this out in a time that matches or beats that. There is no reason to delay any further with the right focus and discipline, motivation to get it there. So what we understand through individual experiences that are still yet rare but real is that ibogaine has dramatic therapeutic application to symptoms of Parkinson's disease. It's mixed. Half of folks respond very well, Half of folks have almost no response. There is a dramatic symptomologic response for individuals with multiple sclerosis. And governor Perry and I happen to know of an individual who has recently been treated with ibogaine for multiple sclerosis. This person had to be helped into the clinic by three people because of the inability to walk. Following that treatment, this person left walking on their own two feet without assistance. And it is my hope that this person will be ready to speak about this experience within the next 30 to 60 days and when. So there will be the proper due celebration about the result that's been achieved for this person. There is also therapeutic application for individuals who suffer from lyme disease, and that oftentimes requires, you know, a daily dose or it varies by individual. But there is no question but that ibogaine has significant impact on symptoms of Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, and lyme disease. You mentioned dementia, and I know scientist and I can't do math, which is why I'm.

[Jillian Michaels]

Either good company.

[Brian Hubbard]

I was on a panel discussion with Dr. Williams last week, and an audience member asked him about dementia, and without being able to quote him verbatim, he said, but look, what we know is ibogaine has unique and singular neurotherapeutic restoration power. Basically, it regenerates the brain in a way that nothing else does, nothing else does.

[Jillian Michaels]

So it's not just a dopamine situation. There's more going.

[Brian Hubbard]

It has a global restorative effect on the organ of the brain, the implications of which are profound and require expeditious research and development activity in order to maximize all the potentialities in terms of the treatment of neurological disease, for which we have no effective answers. As it pertains to Alzheimer's, I would analogize it to what I understand about its application to Parkinson's. For Parkinson's patients, the earlier ibogaine treatment can be delivered in response to symptom onset, the better the outcome. Of course, it delays the progression of symptoms, which lengthens the amount of time a person is going to be able to maintain their functionality. It does not stop or cure the disease, but it slows and mitigates symptoms, and that's variable per person. Again, this bears out the necessity for research because there may be ways to engineer ibogaine so as to maximize those therapeutic benefits over a longer time frame. So if we draw the analogy to Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia, it could very well be that when the person starts showing those first signs of forgetfulness, if you start them on an ibogaine treatment regimen, you may be able to arrest the progression of the disease for several years to come. And I have two months mothers, the one who gave birth to me and the one who raised me and adopted my mother. And there's my birth mother and then there's my father and stepmother.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it.

[Brian Hubbard]

And I was, I grew up essentially.

[Jillian Michaels]

You're adopted.

[Brian Hubbard]

I grew up primarily with my dad and my stepmother. And my stepmother, she fought a valiant battle battle with a form of metastatic cancer that had a 20% five year survival rate. And she beat it, only to be failed and afflicted by dementia following the completion of her cancer treatment. And at the age of 71, she passed away this past November, just before Thanksgiving. And let me tell you, Jillian, if I had any notion, belief or hope that an ibogaine treatment would have arrested the progression of her disease, there is no prison sentence stiff enough that would have deterred me from doing everything I could to deliver it to her so that she could have the opportunity to be restored. And this gets back to, to the grotesque reality of US Special Forces veterans, or any veteran for that matter, who signed up with a willingness to lay their life down for this country, the land of the free, where they have been met with a system that is oftentimes completely ineffectual in its response to their trauma and their pain. The fact that they have to leave the country that they were ready to die for in order to be restored from the wounds of war that they engaged in for this country's sake is the height of immorality. And the days in which folks have to travel across the border to receive a therapeutic option that delivers a uniquely restored result need to come to an end sooner rather than later.

[Jillian Michaels]

Does anybody else have pain points when it comes to bras and under underwear? I mean, seriously, like riding up the crack of your rear end or gapping with bras or like spillage over bras or uncomfortable underwires like, this is. These are bones I have to pick up until I discovered skims. I'm really, I'm really being serious. I love the brand. They're comfortable, supportive, they look great. They disappear under clothes. Clothing. I mean, what more can a person ask for? You guys, personally, I love the Fits Everybody collection. I like the Fits Everybody boy shorts. You don't see the lines that, like on my butt cheeks, under my pants. Hate that. Or the Fits Everybody push up bra honestly gives me just enough of a boost that I'm not gonna say need, but I definitely prefer so. Guys, you can shop skims Intimates, including the Fits Everybody collection and more at skimming and skim stores. And after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and then select my show in the dropdown menu that follows. All right, you. You have alluded to this part of our conversation, obviously throughout the conversation. So let's go there and I'll circle back to other questions on protocol and follow up and so on and so forth with let's talk about why am I going to Mexico? What's in Mexico? What is the legality of this? What is the progression, all this stuff you're talking about? Because now hopefully we've gotten people that are listening to this to think, how do I do this? Is this for me? What? You know, which we'll get into if you're healthy enough and so on. Legally, what's the issue here? What's going on? And what the hell is in besides these two places? Like, I would be scared to go to Mexico. I'm not going to Mexico for stem cells, let alone ibogaine.

[Brian Hubbard]

So right now? Well, since, since the passage of the Controlled Substance act back in the early 70s, ibogaine has been classified as a scheduled one controlled substance. Meaning, like, sorry that it has no therapeutic benefit with a high propensity for abuse. Now, having having been trained, trained in American law school and having practiced law intensively for 16 years, and having been a government official running complex government systems, the one thing that I can assure your audience is that the ability to achieve progress within American society broadly is often hobbled by the existence of a plethora of fictitious legal realities embodied in laws, regulations and court decisions which strangulate legitimate reality and the ability to live within it for the sake of progress. The definition of ibogaine, or classification of ibogaine as a substance that has no therapeutic benefit is an absolute total insult to the truth. The companion conclusion, that it has a high propensity for abuse when there is exactly zero, zero objective evidence through lived experience or through scientific observation combined that there is any addictive property within this whatsoever, is another illustration of the way in which the absurdity of law is leveraged to thwart progress that can yield curative treatments. When we have a medical and pharmaceutical system that is geared toward the delivery of of chronic treatments over the course of an individual's life, why invest the money into something that can produce a curative effect that a person may take one to three times over the course of their life when we can treat them chronically for the rest of their lives? There is a much greater incentive to create government policy that favors treatments of chronicity over those treatments that can be curative. That is the central fight that is around ibogaine, as well as some of the other what we call psychedelics that can deliver therapeutic results that far exceed that generated by synthetic modern pharmacology. And the only thing folks like myself and others are asking is let's create a level playing field so we can have some legitimate free market competition so as to allow alternatives to come to bear that have demonstrated revolutionary impact on individual conditions from which millions of Americans suffer mightily every year.

[Jillian Michaels]

How do you see this changing? I know that individuals like yourself and Governor Perry and other politicians are starting to look at this, and I know that the people around Kennedy are also huge advocates for this, but is there something the audience can do? Are we supposed supposed to be writing our senators? Is there a bill that we should be getting behind? What can people like myself, just average Joes, do to demand that there be further research, legalization, so on and so forth.

[Brian Hubbard]

Let me answer this, and I'm gonna give you three answers to this. Number one. Government exists in all cases downstream from culture. Government is a reactionary entity. It only moves when the pressure of the people is applied to make it move. Culture drives government. Government can try to fight, thwart and subvert the culture, and sometimes it oftentimes it does through various methodologies. It cannot defeat it, especially when it has a unified sense of purpose. For folks in your audience, the very first objective is to disseminate the light of truth by sharing the realities that we're sitting here talking about. Tell your neighbors and friends at the dinner table about this substance that you've learned about called ibogaine and the dramatic therapeutic benefits that it can have for millions of people who are without an effective answer within the US Medical system. Take what you have heard here today and what you can find from credible sources elsewhere and spread the word about the reality of its existence and the way in which the American government needs to be responsive to the needs of the American people By bringing it online as an additional therapeutic option a person may choose, in consultation with their physician and their own family, to receive as a matter of personal autonomy. That's the first thing. Spread the word. There should be a concerted effort to act. Ask our federally elected representatives to get about the business of responsible rescheduling of substances that have therapeutic benefits as discovered through recent scientific research, so that their pharmaceutical development and deployment through the US Medical system can be accelerated. When we are trying to engage in pharmaceutical research around any Schedule 1 controlled substance, it is an incredibly, incredibly logistically difficult and expensive process to pursue. If the objective is to have a Manhattan Project for the development and integration of ibogaine into the US Medical system, there has got to be a rescheduling to either Schedule 2 or Schedule 3 so as to remove the tremendous governmental bureaucratic burden that impedes and amplifies the expensive research that needs to begin in earnest right, right now. Thirdly, and this is a magnificent opportunity, when I was in Kentucky, we were on the threshold of success. I ran the state's Opioid Commission. I was its first chairman and executive director. And within that role, we set out to explore the possibility of having Kentucky set aside $42 million, or 5% of its settlement that it had secured from opioid manufacturers and distributors for their role in the creation and perpetuation of the opioid epidemic to get ibogaine through the FDA's approval process in partnership with a drug developer who would have matched the state's money. There was a nine member commission. If that had been allowed to proceed to a vote, we would have been successful and that project would be in the midst of execution right now. Unfortunately, in 2023. There was a general election in Kentucky. The Attorney General who appointed me rotated out of office. The new Attorney General came into office and he did so with a pedigree of prior law firm representation of opioid maintenance manufacturers, the opioid maintenance industry broadly, as well as a portfolio of significant campaign contributions from those same actors who stand the most to lose from the advancement of an ibogaine therapeutic with which to treat opioid dependency. Thank God for for the foundation with which I currently work, the Reed foundation, its founder Rex Elsass and now a wonderful group of people in the state of Texas led by former Texas Governor Rick Perry. Organizations that include Texans for Greater Mental Health, Veterans exploring treatment solutions that have allied with the Reed foundation to create a legislative opportunity in the Lone Star State that is being changed. Championed by the author of Texas House Bill 3717 that calls for the allocation of $50 million out of Texas's $20 billion budget surplus with which to finish the job that was begun in Kentucky whereby a public private partnership would be developed. Texas's 50 million would be matched by a CO equal 50 million by a drug developer and the objective would be to get ibogaine through the FDA's process of clinical trials as a breakthrough therapeutic for opioid use disorder, co occurring substance use disorder and any other mental health or neurological conditions for which it demonstrates efficacy through those clinical trials. And I can also affirm for you that if Texas is first it is going to unleash a tsunami of legislative activity in what could be up to a dozen states beginning in 2026 that are have all their eyes on that state ready to follow its lead, to leverage their resources to have a genuine multi state coalition Manhattan Project effort to get ibogaine across the finish line with the fda. It is a precious opportunity. It is an opportunity of restoration and resurrection of a project that was most assuredly thought dead at the end of 2020 23. Representative Cody Harris and all those that are around this project and there is a companion bill that is in the Texas State Senate being championed and authored by a State Senator by the name of Tan Parker. Those two gentlemen need folks within the State of Texas to contact their representatives, state Senators and statewide elected leadership to say we support the Texas Ibogaine Initiative. We support the research and development of ibogaine within the State of Texas and we want Texas to the rest of the nation and the delivery of this emancipation medication to all of our brothers and sisters in this nation who can benefit from its therapeutic efficacy. Ibogaine texas.com is a website that people can go to. Read all about it. Ibogaine texas.com and get mobilized. Texas legislature adjourns on June 2nd. And we want people. We want people to call with love and with patience and encouragement to their representative. This is an opportunity of beauty and unity. And it's not one that requires a lot of coercive or hateful talk for anybody who might call or send an email or write.

[Jillian Michaels]

Understood.

[Brian Hubbard]

Don't communicate through your prism of social media. Yes, communicate through the prism of your heart.

[Jillian Michaels]

Right, I understand. So unfortunately, this falls pretty much in the hands of Texans at the moment, you're saying?

[Brian Hubbard]

Yes, ma'am.

[Jillian Michaels]

Okay. But when it comes to our state, should it, as we're all hoping then, and this will go to California, Wyoming, wherever the heck other states it's going, and then as a resident of that state, you'll have to do the exact same thing to push for it.

[Brian Hubbard]

That is correct.

[Jillian Michaels]

Now, with that said, what's currently in Mexico, because that would scare me. But it's my understanding that the two institutes that are practicing ibogaine therapy in Mexico are related to college campuses here in America or they're.

[Brian Hubbard]

So I can only speak to the ibogaine providers with whom I am familiar. Okay, there are several, but the two with which I am acquainted. One is south of Tijuana and it's called Ambio. Ambo is the clinic which provided ibogaine treatment to the veterans who were the subject of the Stanford study. Ambo is the clinic to which the organization vets veterans exploring treatment solutions, refers their scholarship or service recipients for ibogaine treatment. Ambo is operated by a gentleman by the name of Jonathan Dickinson and his partner Trevor Miller, along with our staff, that is highly professional medical doctors, cardiac nurses. They have a full medical complement. Jonathan and Trevor themselves are Canadians and they are true genuine daredevils in terms of their willingness to establish a clinic that has breakthrough therapeutic results for a myriad of traumatic brain injury, post traumatic stress treatment, resistant anxiety and depression, and polysubstance dependence with a determination that is rooted in a true pioneer in spirit for the benefit of humankind. I would say the same thing about the Cancun Clinic beyond. And that again is B E O N D. Its founder, Tom, founded Beyond in response to the sort of ibogaine treatment experience that he would have wished his wife to have received. His wife is a lady by the name of Ms. Talia Eisenberg, and she struggled mightily with opioid dependence for years. She underwent an ibogaine treatment, which freed her from that dependency. But according to Tom, it was not in a set or setting or environment that he would want anybody to have to experience. So as a tribute to her and to others, he wished to see receive ibogaine treatment in a setting that is aligned with US Medical standards, he created Beyond.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it. So because when you hear Mexico, you're like, oh, hell no, I'm not going. But at the moment, it seems to be the only place that you can go from the states, and that's cause it's legal there.

[Brian Hubbard]

Obviously, the legal environment in Mexico is superior to that of the United States as it pertains to the availability of ibogaine treatment.

[Jillian Michaels]

Of course it is.

[Brian Hubbard]

Let that sink in on folks.

[Jillian Michaels]

I know. Yeah.

[Brian Hubbard]

And again, the two clinics that I'm speaking of, you know, in the case of ambio, it's a couple of Canadians, and we all love Canada, despite what might be going on between governments.

[Jillian Michaels]

I gotcha. I'm with you. Okay.

[Brian Hubbard]

And the Beyond Clinic. Both Tom and Talia are American. So these are Americans and Canadians that have set up these two clinics south of the border, and they track with what the safety and efficacy standards of a US Medical facility should, should, should have.

[Jillian Michaels]

Now, you've talked a little bit about the fact that this is unpleasant, that you're throwing up, that you are partially paralyzed, and that your heart can potentially stop. That's a little.

[Brian Hubbard]

That.

[Jillian Michaels]

That's a little scary. So with that said, are there individuals who are not candidates for this? And what I mean specifically is that before I did ayahuasca, I was like, you don't have so much as a frigging aspirin for 30 days. Like, don't drink, don't this, don't that, and the risk beyond the spiritual component of it. Because I ended up calling my friend Matt Johnson, and I was like, matt, like it says, don't have coffee. Like, what is the. What's going. And he said the true risk would be serotonin syndrome with that. Whereas, like, if you're taking particularly SSRIs, that could be very dangerous. But I'm wondering, like, if I sent a family member, my aunt, who's like, 78, is this safe for her?

[Brian Hubbard]

It depends on the individual. And the single greatest disqualifier for an individual seeking an ibogaine treatment would be an individual's own heart rhythm.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it. I see.

[Brian Hubbard]

Because I think that a person who goes around preaching better be practicing what they preach. As we went through the Kentucky experience, I became very convicted about the Fact that despite the lack of any substance use issue, I needed to be willing to take my own medicine and therefore my wife and I in order to establish my credibility and she went with me as an act of solidarity, we went and received an ibogaine treatment in November of 23 at Ambio in order to give proper and due consideration and to be properly educated. On the other clinic of significance In December of 24 we went to beyond. So my wife Joalis and I have now had one year apart ibogaine treatments at both clinics so that we are able to speak to the safety and efficacy of result that we each experienced. Both of us had to undergo cardiac screen before we were cardiac screened when we got there and we were cardiac screened before we were placed in the bed to receive the medicine. If underlying cardiac conditions are discovered through EKG that show a propensity propensity for the prolongation of the QT interval or any other condition that would make the heart unstable, that's going to be a disqualifier for certain individuals who have been substance dependent. They may come to the table with metabolic or liver issues that would complicate or negate the efficacy of an ibogaine treatment that might disqualify them. But those are the two major risk factors I can identify that are that are relevant for screening purposes. Now with regard to my wife and myself, you asked earlier about does a person need to have a medical condition to get this or can it be for anyone? I've never had any substance dependency whatsoever and that's not for any sense of moral superiority as much as it was self awareness. I absolutely have all the hardwiring to be an addict by virtue of genetics. I have a family that has been generationally devastated by alcohol. I think about my great grandmother who is on the Mount Rushmore, my life with my two grandfathers and she lived with my alcoholic great grandfather for decades. My papaw, my mother's father was raised by him. My father father, his father was an alcoholic. I mean it is generational devastation. And I knew early, based on my like for anything that gives me a head rush, that if I ever started to ingest a substance that was appealing, I would be headlong into the graveyard with it. So I've just known that about myself. At the same time, because of early childhood and having had two parents who married very young in what I would describe as very difficult socioeconomic circumstances, by the time they came, I came along, they weren't getting along very well. And my earliest memories were of a lot of chaos and conflict and screaming and cussing between my parents. This led to what I would describe as a lifelong struggle with tremendous anxiety. I mean, it's a burden that I carried as a perseverating anxiety that could be oftentimes just crippling. In any and all aspects of my life, I would try to maintain discipline, focus on what needed to be done. But from, you know, every day of my life, whenever I would wake up, I would put on the worry pack and go through my day. My words wife. When she had her first child, her only child, her son Jack, in 2001, she experienced a severe postpartum depression which resulted in her having to receive Celexa, which is an ssri, for what as it evolved into a psychotic mood disorder. Now, I've known my wife since 2001. It's been 24 years now, and for almost the entirety of that period, she has had to take Celexa daily. When we were about to go to ambio In November of 23, they said, Jew Alice is going to have to be Celexa free for five days because if she's on an ssri, it will blunt the effect of the medication. And Jillian, when they told me that, I said, oh, we can't come. I said, there's. I can't be in this house with her one day without her taking a Celexa. I cannot imagine the nightmare that I would have on my hands of five days without her, without it. We will not be able to do this. They said, we're going to give you a supplementation regimen to give her. She's going to get edgy, but you'll get her down here, we promise. And I did, and she got edgy. But we got her down there on the other side of my ibogaine experience, which at that time was the most profound spiritual experience I have ever had in my life. Sublime. It was horrible. Hardcore, but sublime. I came out the other side and two weeks later, my resignation from the Kentucky Opioid Commission was demanded because I had undertaken the ibogaine project. Pre ibogaine, I would have gone to pieces over the annihilation of that opportunity for my people at home. But I was able to handle and navigate what was nothing less than than a significant professional and vocational crisis with a degree of grace and ease that was otherworldly. And the anxiety that I have carried with me my entire life has all been put completely to bed following that Iboggan experience In November of 23, Jo Alice's last Alexa was taken on November 23rd, 3rd, 2023. And she has been emancipated from her need for an SSRI since that first ibogaine treatment. You ask if it's for everybody or anyone who would choose to pursue it even if they don't have a substance dependency or a neurological disease, and the answer is yes. If you are in the middle of the experience of being a human being with all of the bumps, bruises and scrapes that come with it, ibogaine should be an option for you. And unlike its opponents, I'm not here to say that it needs to become the new evidence based, best practice standard of care through which everyone must matriculate.

[Jillian Michaels]

Yes.

[Brian Hubbard]

I'm just saying make it a competitive option, make it an available option so that people can exercise their choice to take whichever medicine they think suits their circumstances. Circumstance. It's a freedom, choice and autonomy issue of the most fundamental nature.

[Jillian Michaels]

Would you. Do you mind if I. This could be too personal. And by all means, like, don't. I'll. I'll cut it. Can you tell me a little bit about what you saw or what you felt or like on your personal. Personal. And have you done it since? Is there like an upkeep? You go once a year or.

[Brian Hubbard]

Well, I have had it twice. If I never have it again for the rest of my life, I'm okay with that. Right. As I said, it is a. It is a physically difficult experience. You know, you receive it on one day, the next day you have what they call your gray day, because I. All of your receptors have just been maxed out.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it.

[Brian Hubbard]

And you go through what I would describe as just. It's very hard.

[Jillian Michaels]

Crash, crash.

[Brian Hubbard]

You crash.

[Jillian Michaels]

Got it.

[Brian Hubbard]

Now, Jo Alice, her day after, and we've had two day afters, are not nearly as severe as mine. And this gets into the individualized nature of it somehow. I metabolize it differently. And I mean, it's like the flu. Times 10. Oh God, for two days.

[Jillian Michaels]

This sounds the farthest thing from addicting. It's not a good thing, I gotta tell ya. It's like you puke. It goes on for. This is the longest psychedelic trip. Correct. It's like 12, 14 hours each time.

[Brian Hubbard]

It was 12 hours for me. It was about 8 to 10 hours for her. She was much more functional than I was. In the two days that followed. I think the day after on each occasion, I don't think I drank but about a half a smoothie. The thought of eating or even drinking, I just couldn't live it. Couldn't be in my mind. In 2018, I started reading about the impact of psilocybin on alcohol dependency and I became curious and I wanted to understand more about it. So between 2018 and 2022, I had a series of psilocybin journeys that were guided monitored and then I received ibogaine in November of 23 and then Ibogaine in December of 24. And again those ibogaine experiences were for the purposes of being able to say number one, I've practiced what I've preached and despite the fear mongering and the oh, this is risky and oh, this is dangerous, I've done it and I'm here to attest to the fact that it can be done safely and be done with dramatic effect for individuals who don't even have a substance use issue. I also wanted to be able to speak to the safety and efficacy of the practices of the two most well known clinics. And we've just talked about which ones Those are. The November 23rd experience was up to that point in time the singularly most profound spiritual experience I'd ever had. Every experience that I have had had with plant medicine, every single one was preparatory for what I experienced in December of 24, even that I began experience in November of 23. It was magnificent and its profundity. I don't have to guess or wonder about the eternal significance of the individual human being. I do not have to cognitively know or intellectually agree or emotionally believe. I know that all of my brothers and sisters in this life are kin to to me as images of an eternal almighty Creator who loves each and every one of us and who wishes for us all to have the opportunity to live life with beauty, autonomy and dignity. And when we are able to see each other through that lens of divinity rather than the fabricated lenses of the human hand that often create fabricated division and separation for the purposes of control. And I would assert to you that the ultimate dividend of division is control, then we are able to recognize a significant opportunity for a broad based shift in social consciousness that will allow us to solve problems with each other that have Bedouin Western civilization specifically, and human civilization generally for thousands of years. There is an alignment afoot that is expressed through our politics that may look ugly to some, but beneath the surface there are some beautifully committed souls who see that the time, the circumstance and the people who can make this happen are convergent from points far near, and are now working toward the same goal independently yet simultaneously. And my privilege of sitting here with you as just one of many servants who has been tolling away of this is immense. And I will give everything that I have, everything that I am, every ability that is within me to help hasten the day when God's medicine can be available for any of his children who choose to take it. That is the mission.

[Jillian Michaels]

I think we're done. Is there anything. I didn't ask you that I should have.

[Brian Hubbard]

There's nothing that you haven't asked me that you should have. But there is one thing that I would like to leave you with, please. As well as your audience. And. And I remember the first time I saw this. I think the divine reaches out and grabs our attention in a number of ways. You see something, you read something, and I mean, it just hits you like a lightning bolt. And it'll stay in your heart and your mind, it'll captivate your imagination, and you find yourself aspiring to meet that concept or that idea or that whisper that has made it into your head. There was a. In Lexington, Kentucky, there is an organization called the Lexington Leadership foundation that has a fatherhood program that's led by a dear friend of mine by the name of Dr. David Cozart. And he has a community center there for children in particular. Well, all children whose fathers are incarcerated or in some other way sidelined within. Within the urban areas of Lexington. And I remember looking at this mural that he had, that had a Bible verse from what I call the. The Old Testament, from Isaiah 61:1. And I remember the first time that I read it. I mean, it just grabbed a hold of my. Just like a scruff of my neck. And I have tried to internalize that verse as a personal prayer, and I'm going to articulate it for you because it is the true, genuine North Star aspiration of my life. And if your audience wishes to know how they can. Can help, insofar as I am an individual servant, I would ask that they consider praying this prayer for me as well as those around me as we pursue common mission. And it is this. Lord, may your spirit be upon me. Anoint me to deliver good titans and to the meek sacrifice. Send me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound. Send me, Lord, in your name, with your love and light. Amen.

[Jillian Michaels]

I didn't expect this to end in tears.

[Brian Hubbard]

Thank you.

[Jillian Michaels]

But I just. I just. I respect the hell out of you and I appreciate all you're doing, and I want to be helpful in any way I possibly can.

[Brian Hubbard]

The time is now. And if we're going to lay it on the line. We're going to lay it on the line now. Thank you for letting me do it with you here today in your studio.

[Jillian Michaels]

Thank you for coming, Brian.

[Brian Hubbard]

My honor.