Jillian Michaels (2:41)

Right.

Raymond Ibrahim (2:42)

And I had believed what everyone was telling us, which is this, you know, what, what. What al Qaeda had said is, we're attacking you because you attacked us. It was a grievance narrative. Okay.

Jillian Michaels (2:51)

Of course, everyone saw the freaking bin Laden letter on Tick Tock, like under the Great Satan has done this to our people. You haven't. You know, let's not forget, like, yeah, that's the narrative is the evil imperialist West.

Raymond Ibrahim (3:03)

And it made sense in the context of what I had been learning in college and in what he was saying and what Western news media was kind of confirming what he was saying. So that the shock for me was then to go and read the Arabic texts. And just to give you a little more context, right before that, I was finishing my master's degree and I had written it about the first pivotal battle between Islam and the west. This is before 9 11. It actually came out right around 9 11. Okay. And so I was immersed in a historical thing, and I knew there was this jihad and conquest going on, but I too had assumed. Yeah, this is kind of like, you know, this is the modern world. It's not really happening anymore.

Jillian Michaels (3:40)

Forgive me, when you say the. The first clash between radical Islam and the west, what timeline then are you talking about? If it's pre 9 11?

Raymond Ibrahim (3:48)

Oh, well, well, hopefully we can get into that. The actual history. So the first major clash which I wrote about was my master's thesis with Victor Davis Hansen. I know you had him on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much so. It was with him. This is back in the late 90s.

Jillian Michaels (4:02)

Oh, my gosh.

Raymond Ibrahim (4:03)

Yeah, yeah. And. And I was just making, you know, to be a history major, you want to make uses of languages. And I knew Arabic and I was studying classical Greek. So I looked at the Byzantine and Islamic nexus in the seventh century, and I started writing about that first major battle, the Battle of Yarmouk, which became my thesis. Okay. And that had Jihad. Okay. And then we. But I had. But now I'm learning about this guy, bin laden. He did 911 and he's telling us it's because of what you do. And the Western media is supporting him. Okay. So that's the backdrop. Then I get all these Arabic texts written by Amen Zawahri, who's the. Who became actually the leader after bin Laden was killed. And he was the number two man at the time and also by Osama bin Laden. And when I read him, these are now written to Arabs and Muslims in Arabic. Westerners are not supposed to be privy to this. It was. It was. Are you familiar with the ISIS approach, which is, no, we hate you because you're an infidel. That's not what they said. Al Qaeda, they said, no, no, no, this is a religious thing. Yeah. We're telling them it's about grievances and, and we're trying to demoralize them and we're trying to make use of the useful idiots amongst them. But no, we hate them on principle. This is what the Quran teaches. We have to do jihad, etc, etc. So I think that was the first, not so much of a. It wasn't a shocker because I've always known Islam does teach that. It was a shocker kind of to see how much deception was going on both by Al Qaeda and being enabled by the West.

Jillian Michaels (5:28)

Okay, this is takia.

Raymond Ibrahim (5:30)

This deception, this is one of the. Yeah, this is the broadest term that is sort of used for it. And it, it, it, it's so a lot. The problem is, you know, it's not just takeya. There's a lot of different forms of deception and just deception in general. Muhammad, in a canonical hadith or saying said war is deceit. And guess what, the infidel, you're always at war with him one way or the other. So that's almost like a blanket statement that you can always deceive the infidel. Okay. And there's so many intricate doctrines that allow deception. One is called tawriya. And you know what this is. So it's legitimate for a Muslim to do this. Let's say, let's say you asked me, you want to borrow $20 and I say, I don't have a dime in my pocket. Now you're going to assume I have no money, but if I have a $20 bill and I don't have a dime in my pocket, I didn't lie to you. And I see this all the time, okay? Where Muslims will speak, it's, it's like a double kind of speak. And you, as the non Muslim who's. Who's not familiar with the context, will think they're saying something kind of peaceful. But it actually, to Muslims, it's messaging, something different.

Jillian Michaels (6:38)

Okay. Before we get into the history of this, it's, it's important to establish, and I try to establish this element every time I engage in conversations about radical Islam. You got billions of Muslims in the vast majority are lovely people. In fact, I believe you yourself, I have Muslim friends. Everybody tells me I have incredible Muslim friends that comes on and talks to me about radical Islam. Every single person, it could be Gad Saad. It could be Brigitte Gabrielle. It could be Dr. Nazarian. Every single person who has escaped the Middle east and ran from radical Islam is like, I have incredible Muslim friends.

Raymond Ibrahim (7:16)

So, yeah, we have to iron this out.

Jillian Michaels (7:18)

Okay, so explain to me. I appreciate that we're gonna get into the history of Muhammad, Islam, the Quran, the Jihad verses, and all of that, but why then are like, I don't know, 1.8 billion Muslims awesome. And then a couple hundred million or not. What is the difference? It's the same book, same religion.

Raymond Ibrahim (7:41)

Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, we can. We can spend the rest of this talk.

Jillian Michaels (7:46)

No one can actually answer it for me. I've asked now pretty much everyone. No one can tell me that. No one. I've asked Muslims. I've, like, everyone. I've asked everyone. No one actually has that answer. They're like, well, you know, they just. You know, they're good people. They. I've heard everything from. Well, those Muslims don't read the Quran. I'm like, well, that seems unlikely. Well, those Muslims are just good people. And. And they kind of ignore those verses. Just like Christians ignore parts of the Old Testament. We all do that. And I'm like, yeah, but all Christians ignore the parts of the Old Testament. So we're still back to the thing.

Raymond Ibrahim (8:18)

No, no, no, no. I get it. No, no, allow me to elucidate, please. So let me unpack this. So first thing you got to do is differentiate between the religion and the people. And I would argue this is how you have to approach all religions. Okay? There's what a religion teaches.

Jillian Michaels (8:36)

Okay.

Raymond Ibrahim (8:36)

And then there's what the people do. Okay? Islam. And I've noticed you use the term radical Islam. Okay? There is no radical Islam. Islam is Islam. The stuff that we call radical is just part and parcel of Islam, has always been. We call it radical because it just. We've somehow reached this point where we think history has ended and everyone thinks the way we do. And the natural culmination of all civilizations to become like us, just provide them with enough material means and, you know, and everyone's going to rise above it, you know? Okay, that's sort of, I think, Western arrogance. But Islam is a coherent body of teachings. It's very clear. It's very black and white. It's not mysterious. I'm not. I'm talking specifically of Sunni Islam, which accounts for 90% of the Islamic world, okay? It's. It's a legalistic religion. It's not mystical in any way, shape or Form. According to Islam, every action a human can engage in is categorized as either forbidden, disliked, meaning you, you shouldn't do it. It's not necessarily going to go to hell for it, but neutral. Okay, whatever. Recommended, we'd like you to do it, but you don't have to do it. And obligatory. All right. Every single action in this life. It's a very totalitarian system. That's what Sharia is. And if I forget, we really need to talk about Sharia because it's in the news and there's some input I'd like to say about that. But now if you look at the religion, some of the stuff that we like to call radical or try to present as aberrant amongst Muslims is, is actually 100% mainstream. All right, this can't be possible. No, no, it's. Well, it, it is possible, but we'll get into the, the moderates.

Jillian Michaels (10:10)

Like I go to Dubai and they go out with my wife.

Raymond Ibrahim (10:15)

We'll address.

Jillian Michaels (10:15)

But then you go to Iran and someone's hair showing and they get the crap beat out of them. I cannot reconcile these two Muslim worlds.

Raymond Ibrahim (10:22)

Patience.

Jillian Michaels (10:23)

Okay, boss. Okay, okay, okay.

Raymond Ibrahim (10:24)

Hold on.

Jillian Michaels (10:25)

Let me just really put the questions aside because.

Raymond Ibrahim (10:28)

Yeah, yeah, this is a thorny issue. Okay, so the religion, sundi. Mainstream Islam, okay. For example, it allows polygamy. That's not, that's not open to debate. The Quran talks about how you can, you know, punish your wife by beating her.

Jillian Michaels (10:41)

Yes.

Raymond Ibrahim (10:42)

Okay, Number two, concubinage, right? Sex slaves. This is in the Quran and it's important. Okay, real quick segue because you mentioned, well, you know, the Bible, the Old Testament and they do that and Christians have risen above it. Okay, here's the difference. It's a very interesting difference. I wrote about this like 20 years ago. If you look at the old, let's say, let's stick with the Old Testament because that's what they talk about. Yeah, Slavery, slavery, war, genocide, Joshua, all that sort of thing. As it's presented, if you look at the actual text, the way it's written, okay, so God commands Joshua and you know, the Israelites or the Hebrews to go to war. And he mentions the names of the people, the Jebusites, the Hebusites, you know, at the Canaanites, etc. Etc. And the language is very temporal. It's, it's, it's finite. It's not open ended. It's, it's almost in the past tense. You know, they fought them and that was it. Now if you go to the Quran, okay, And guess what? Even though their enemies were actually identifiable personages throughout history, the Persians, the Rastrians, the Christian Byzantines and so forth, it doesn't use that word. It uses generally the word the kefir, which can be translated as infidel or mushrik. Okay. Like there's a lot of words and the language is, when you read the Quran, it's in the present tense. Okay. So fight the people, fight the ker. Fight the people of the book. Christians and Jews fight. It's, it's a constant open ended commandment. Whereas the Old Testament, it's recording a historical account. God said to them, fight that group of people in that group, that area at that point of time. So it never got codified into some sort of vision for Jews or Christians that you have to be at war with everyone. The Quran is very different. The language is, is very transcendent and above and beyond the finite moments. And so it got codified there that that's what Sharia law is as a world view. So the most standard thing in Islamic teaching is you have two worlds. You have, in Arabic it's called dar al Islam, which can be translated as the land or abode of Islam. This is wherever Sharia controls. Right. And then you have the rest of the world is dar al harab means war. The land where we wage war until we bring them into our land. Okay. Yeah. And historically people don't understand this, that they, you know, at least for the Muslim side they were at. So they were at such odds and at war with the rest of the world that if you were a European, Okay. And for whatever reason there was a delegation being sent to talk to a sultan, he had to get an actual permit before he entered the Islamic world because if he didn't, he would get killed and enslaved instantly because you are the de facto enemy. That's how it was. Historically. We haven't even gotten into the jihad and what it did to the Western world. Okay. But okay, I digress. So Islam, when you hear all this stuff about oh, this is radical, this is not jihad, is not radical jihad and we'll get into the history. Has been part integral to Islam, always

Jillian Michaels (13:37)

has been since inception.

Raymond Ibrahim (13:39)

Okay. And okay, the attack, attacks on free speech and religious freedom. So for example, attacks on the blasphemer, someone who speaks against Muhammad and that which goes on all the time.

Jillian Michaels (13:51)

Sure.

Raymond Ibrahim (13:52)

Today. Okay. That is completely part of Islam, always has been attacking and possibly even killing the apostate who wants to leave Islam completely. Muhammad himself is on record saying whoever Leaves his religion, kill him. Okay, so that's the religion. Now, does that mean, what is it? Almost 2 billion Muslims now? They all follow it. And this is where the analogy that you mentioned I agree with, which is, yes, look at Christianity and Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism, of course, don't have these sort of draconian worldviews. But it is true that if I look at Christians in any other group, well, a lot of them don't follow any of their religion. So to me, what I'm trying to say is moderate Muslims, and I don't care for that word, and I don't care for the word radical because radical Muslims are not radical. What they are is observant, pious Muslims. And what we call moderate are lackadaisical Muslims. You know, easygoing, secular, cultural, cultural Muslims where, yeah, you know, we go, we do the Ramadan thing, we have a feast, we go to the mosque once in a while, that sort of thing. Some don't even do any of that. So, but in no way, shape or form do these moderate Muslims, as we call them, who do exist. They are not representative of Islam. Okay. And that's the whole point. Same thing you can say about, like I said, Christians and Jews. And I mean, look, in Judaism, you have the orthodox Jews, you have the secular or, you know, reformed. And obviously one will say one's not doing it the right way, for example. Right, of course, yeah. So the, the text, the teaching is what it is. It is by any measure what we would call radical and disturbing and draconian. You know, the punishments and the amputations and the whipping, that's all part of Islam. Why? And if you want, we can get into it, but because it's part of what's called Sharia law. And Sharia law is based on the literal words of the Quran, which are believed to be from Allah and Muhammad's words and deeds, which are many. And in the Quran says, you have a perfect example in Muhammad and you have to follow him. Okay. And just to show you what I'm talking about, in the Quran, for example, there's a whole. There's this doctrine which to me, so you were asking me earlier, you know, what's, what's the most problematic thing. One was, of course, the shock at, you know, this disconnect between what Muslims were really up to with the Al Qaeda and what Westerners, how like, not only were they clueless, but they were actually disseminating their lies. But the other one was this doctrine that even until now, no one really wants to talk about people will talk about jihad to me. The most problematic doctrine in Arabic, it's called. And these two words can be translated in various ways from. They can be called loyalty and enmity. They can. Some Muslims translate them as love and hate, which is actually pretty good. And with this doctrine, which is in the Quran teaches Muslims can only be, must only be loyal to fellow Muslims, the ummah, okay, they are their only friends. And the non Muslims, you have to hate them. Okay? And it even says even if they're your fathers and your brothers and your wives. I translated a video of a popular Egyptian cleric. It's on my YouTube channel. Who says no, no, you've seen it where.

Jillian Michaels (16:57)

I've seen it on your channel, but please tell the other.

Raymond Ibrahim (16:59)

Yeah, yeah, where he basically says, and this is, this is because of the teaching of the hatred for non Muslims. Islam allows Muslim men to marry Christian women and Jews because they're the people of the book. But it's also interesting because of course a Christian man can't marry a Muslim woman. Why? Because of course they see it from a purely patriarchal worldview, which is okay, as long as the, as long as the woman is the infidel, who cares? She's subjugated anyway. That's why you can't have a male Christian or Jew married to a Muslim, because you can't have a Muslim being subjugated. Right? But so he says, even though that's a legit, you have to hate her in your heart and show her you hate her. And he says you can enjoy her sexually, you can enjoy her whatever way you know, but make sure she knows you hate her. You have one Kitabi female, Ashabati. Fakot.

Jillian Michaels (18:40)

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Raymond Ibrahim (19:05)

Okay, and, and, and even, and here, here, here we go to the moderate thing. Even in the audience because he's given he's preaching. Some Muslims are find it hard to reconcile as these are who we would call moderates. But he says it's in the Quran. It's. And it is in the Quran. Okay, there's Quran Surah 60, verse four says Ibrahim, who's Abraham from Genesis, you know, you know, Islam appropriates a lot of these biblical characters, says. So the Genesis account, God calls Abraham and he leaves the land of Ur, okay? And that's the end of it. In the Islamic account, not only does he do that, but he tells his former kinsman. And until, until you believe in God, Allah hatred will reign between us forever. All right? And the Quran talks about how these early pious Muslims, including the first Khalif, Abu Bakr and Omar, the followers of Muhammad in wars, tried to kill their own relatives, and they did kill their own relatives. So the whole point is loyalty belongs exclusively to fellow Muslims. It's a. What Muhammad did, as I always say, the genius of Muhammad is he took the tribal mores of his world, 7th century Arabia, and re articulated them through a theological paradigm which made them so powerful. Powerful. So now normal tribalism, which we understand is, you know, me and my people, and you're the outsider, you're the enemy. But now it's no longer my race or culture, it's the Ummah, it's Islam working together as a body. And everyone's the other tribe. And we're at war with them one way or the other. Okay? So that's Islam. Now, going back to the moderate thing, just because that's what the religion teaches. Okay. You have a whole host of people, remember, Muslims, like most people are born into the religion. It's not like most people. It's not like Muslims automatically convert. I'm just born into this.

Jillian Michaels (20:49)

Yep.

Raymond Ibrahim (20:50)

Depending on who I am, the kind of person I am, you know, either I won't. A lot of Muslims honestly don't even know a lot of this stuff. And the clerics try to hide it for them because it will turn a lot. A lot of them don't know.

Jillian Michaels (21:00)

They will tell me, like. And I have believed this for quite some time. It was actually Carl Higby. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him. Navy seal, served in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he's read the Quran. And he was talking to me about the Muslim Brotherhood being banned from buying land in Texas and, And how Arab countries like Saudi and UAE have labeled this group a terror group, but the United States hasn't and the UK hasn't. And I'm like, but the Quran is so peaceful. It's the most peaceful religion. And he goes, have you read the Quran? And I was like, but just. All my friends who are Muslim have told me we're the most peaceful religion. I just believed them. And then all Of a sudden, I read parts of the Quran and I was freaked out. Yeah, freaked out. Especially when you have the mayor of New York swearing in on the Quran. Because it's one thing to be like, well, you're a kid. You were born into the religion. You know, you're the moderate guy. You're the good guy. You're like all my Muslim friends. But then you swear it on the Quran, and I'm gonna presume you've read it. And that's when I started to say, like, okay, hold on. We've got Ilhan Omar. She hates America. She's clear about it. You've got Omar Fateh, who almost became, I believe, mayor of Minneapolis, but then he got caught in fraud. He didn't make it. You've got Mamdani, who's now mayor of New York. You've got the guy who's running, I think, Dearborn, Michigan, who's terrifying.

Raymond Ibrahim (22:29)

And you're seeing the Rashida Tlaib.

Jillian Michaels (22:32)

Yes. And you're seeing it now in the uk no. So, like, like, now you have all of these different mayors who are Muslim, and they're. They're only loyal to the.

Raymond Ibrahim (22:45)

The Omah because you are a bigot and you are a racist. You are an Islamophobe. And although you live here, I want you to know, as mayor, you are not welcome here. And the day you move out of the city will be the day that I launch a parade celebrating the fact that you moved out of the city. Because you are not somebody who believes in coexistence. You're somebody who tries to preach it, but in fact, you do everything but that. So I just want to put that on the record.

Jillian Michaels (23:10)

And I'm just. I'm sitting back going, I. I feel like we need to be really paying attention. And the Islamophobe thing is quick to shut you down.

Raymond Ibrahim (23:18)

Well, that's what. That's what it was created for. But to really underscore the. The. The swearing on the Quran, I mean, people can't. It's, to me, surreal. If you really understand what's going on to most people, oh, it's his religion and why, of course, he can pick his Quran, have to read the Bible. But what's really going on is. Okay, first of all, is. And especially this fellow, mom, dummy. I forget the name of one of these famous radical clerics that he said mentored him or whatever.

Jillian Michaels (23:45)

Yes, I remember. I can't remember that name.

Raymond Ibrahim (23:47)

Well, there's several of them who are. Have said problematic things. Who are. Who are you would call radical and who are radical. But one of them said a very interesting thing that most Americans did not understand it because they translated in English. But I know translated in Arabic what it is. And he was complaining about, yeah, America rules with man made laws that are other than Sharia. That phrase other than Sharia in Arabic is actually based on the Quran. And it's, it's. Anyone who says that is basically the kind of Muslim who hates democracy, hates everything and wants Sharia, this is his mentor. So now think about this. The guy who's swearing allegiance to the constitution is putting his hand on a book that is dedicated to the overthrow of any man made laws. And that teaches, as I said, hatred for infidels being allied only with Muslims that's full of descriptions of beheading and crucifying and torturing the infidel. And he's swearing on that to uphold the law to protect the infidels. Okay, So I mean, and again, remember I was telling you about this concept of toria where there's a double kind of concept. Speak. It's. I'm sure when he has his hand on that Quran, you know, on the one hand I'm showing you infidels. Yeah, yeah, I'm swearing to you guys. But I really wonder, what is it? He, he's really swearing in his mind.

Jillian Michaels (25:02)

Right, right. That's, that's when he swore on the Quran. And I, and I had some idea of what was in there.

Raymond Ibrahim (25:09)

Yeah.

Jillian Michaels (25:10)

I was like, okay, now I'm freaked out. And it was the, in addition, at first I thought, why are we not attacking his policies? We're getting roped into the fact that he's Muslim because, you know, then they could tell us, like we could, you know, distract from how bad his policies are. And then there's a rap song that he has.

Raymond Ibrahim (25:28)

I didn't know he's a rapper.

Jillian Michaels (25:29)

Told her song Paying allegiance to the Holy Land. Five, I guess were the guys that went to jail after 911 and sent funds to terror groups. And you're like, wait, actually wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. So, so let's.

Raymond Ibrahim (25:42)

And he has a picture flipping off Christopher Columbus.

Jillian Michaels (25:45)

Right.

Raymond Ibrahim (25:45)

Which I mean, you know, this seems mild, but think about what that means. Like the, the civilization that I migrated to and has elevated me to the mayorship or mayorhood, I'm flipping it off without ever in any way, shape or form acknowledging or because they did bad things without recognizing that my history and heritage Islam has done a lot worse.

Jillian Michaels (26:08)

Right.

Raymond Ibrahim (26:08)

Okay. So you know, but then, you know, to Me, honestly, everything we're saying is correct and of concern. But to me, the greatest concern is that we're so stupid that we let this sort of thing happen without even thinking about it.

Jillian Michaels (26:22)

Okay, we think about it. The problem are all the young kids that want free buses and have no idea and to be honest, have been told by all their Muslim friends, probably like I have been for 30 years, that it's the most peaceful religion. That's a bit. So you're like, yeah, and I love my friend, so I believe it.

Raymond Ibrahim (26:43)

Like.

Jillian Michaels (26:43)

Like there were. Anyway.

Raymond Ibrahim (26:45)

Okay, so to give you an idea, you know why a lot of this happens in America? By the way, remember I was telling you there's two abodes, the land of Islam and the load, which have to be at war. Many people. Okay, you see a lot of Muslims flooding the West. Do you know that according, according to Sharia, Muslims are banned from voluntarily going to live under is infidel authority? Why would you do that? For the good life. That's not good enough. So the only caveat that allows Muslims to go and migrate and still be Muslims and is if in one, in. In some form or other, you're trying to help spread Islam. Okay, so if I come and live amongst the infidels and I do what I do what you're describing telling you, oh, the Muslim, oh, the holy books is great, and I try to convert you or I try to help the image. Jihad has all these different categories. It's not just physical. There's jihad of the tongue, which means propaganda, Jihad of the pen, which means also propaganda jihad of the money. Okay? And so they are in. As long as they're engaged in that kind of jihad, jihad of the womb demography, they encourage Muslims go have as many babies as you can in the West. These are all forms of jihad. Because jihad means it's not necessarily warfare, that's its primary manifestation, but it means trying to. It's struggling to empower Islam in against the land of the infidel. So any good Muslim who is in the west is to some degree involved in this. That's how he. That's the only way they can justify being in the West. If they just came here and are living under infidel authority because I want the good life, they're actually breaking Islamic rules.

Jillian Michaels (28:13)

So you tell me Ilhan Omar is breaking Islamic rules when she was taken in as a refugee from Somalia as a child and professes to be fantastic.

Raymond Ibrahim (28:23)

No, no, she's not breaking the rules as long as in her heart she's I'm helping Islam somehow.

Jillian Michaels (28:27)

She clearly is. Actually. She makes that very clear. Okay, so I want to like, let's go back to the beginning. Here's my understanding of this. It's like 600 A.D. jews and Christians have been Christians around for 600 years at this point. Jews for I don't even know how many thousands of years, how many millennia. And all of a sudden, there's Muhammad. And he hears from the angel Gabriel and Gabriel tells this guy, like, start a new religion called Islam.

Raymond Ibrahim (29:00)

Well, not a new religion in the Islamic understanding. The Islamic understanding is Muhammad is bringing back the correct rel, which these Jews and Christians had, but ruined it. Okay, so the group. So God had had. That's why, you know, Abraham and Moses and Noah and Jesus are prophets. Okay? So they are, you know, they're, they're part of the, the, the, the canon of religion. But Jews and Christians ruined it by rewriting scriptures. So the Jewish scriptures, the New Testament are. All have been tampered with. Okay, so for example, Muslims believe Jesus, It's, it's, it's amazing. They believe he was born of a virgin and he performed miracles, and then he's gonna come on Judgment day. But the fact, but the idea that he died and was crew. That he was crucified or that he's the son of God or that he was resurrected, that's anathema to them. Okay, so why do those, why do Christians say that? Because Christians lied and they rewrote it. So Muhammad's coming back to bring, to bring the world back to the original, untainted, unvarnished religion that started all the way back with Abraham or even Noah. Okay. Or even Adam and Eve. They have Adam actually. And, and that's. So it's not a new religion. It's. He's bringing it back to its pristine form. And just one final thought, since I'm talking about this, because it's related the idea, you know, it's. It's just. Okay, so Judaism, Christianity are obviously interconnected organically.

Jillian Michaels (30:23)

Okay, sure, because Jesus was a Jew.

Raymond Ibrahim (30:25)

Exactly.

Jillian Michaels (30:26)

And when he. The people who followed him became Christians.

Raymond Ibrahim (30:29)

Right? And I mean, obviously there's the difference. But. So for example, if you look at the Bible, Christian Bible, what we call the Old Testament, the Jewish scriptures, they are exactly as the Hebrews wrote them. Okay? So Christians didn't rewrite them. Now what Muhammad did is he appropriated all these guys, all these historical figures from, you know, from antiquity so he can validate his new movement and say, yeah, I'm part of this whole Thing. But then he rewrote everything about them. He didn't rewrite it. But I mean, the Islamic narrative of what he said and what came out in the Quran and in the Hadith led to a completely recasting of all these characters. Okay, so for example, and I told you in the end day, Jesus comes back, which is consistent with Christian eschatology.

Jillian Michaels (31:13)

Got it.

Raymond Ibrahim (31:14)

But he comes back to break the cross and kill all the pigs. You know, to end, to abrogate Jizya is, is a tax that Christians and Jews are supposed to pay, not to get killed and to abrogate that. Which means at this point now, if you're a Christian Jew, you either convert or die. So that's the Islamic Jesus. Isa. Okay. And I already gave you an example of Abraham Ibrahim who, you know, he is now used by Muslims to justify hating non Muslims because Ibrahim supposedly in the Quran told his people, we hate you and there's nothing going to be between us except war and hate until you become Muslims. Okay, so, so is. So basically Muhammad took all of the, all, all these, he appropriated these characters, recast them to validate himself. And, and that's why when people say, you know, the Abrahamic religions and they try to put Islam in, you know, and actually makes it worse, you know, because there is no bridge. It's like, I'll give you a final analogy because for all these people, and I get tired of it, the whole bridge thing and Islam and oh, we share the same biblical characters. Here's what it's really like. Imagine someone telling you, you know, let's say you have a beloved grandfather who you knew, who knew you knew. And you know, and then I come out of nowhere and I tell you, hey, that's my grandfather too. Okay, that sounds, maybe I'm, it sounds like I'm ingratiating myself. But then I tell you and everything you know about him is wrong. It's. It's what I know. Okay, now is that going to create a bridge or is that going to create conflict?

Jillian Michaels (32:43)

Right, of course. Right, I see what you're saying. So now the beginning early Muhammad gets no traction. And he's in Mecca at this point. Okay. And that's in Saudi Arabia. Okay. And he gets no traction. And I believe he's. And this is the peaceful Muhammad.

Raymond Ibrahim (33:01)

Yeah, yeah. You want me to talk about that dichotomy?

Jillian Michaels (33:04)

Yes, please. Because, because then people will quote those things. But it's my understanding that the stuff that comes later invalidates the stuff that came first.

Raymond Ibrahim (33:11)

Which is why when you were talking about Reading the Quran, you know. You know, the scale falls from everyone's eyes. It doesn't actually, because if you cherry pick or if you're misguided and people let you read certain verses, it sounds very tolerant. Yeah, okay, so the issue is, all right, Muhammad is he's. He's born in Mecca. He's from Mecca, born around 570, and he starts getting the revelations, I think, in, in 6, 10, right? He goes to a cave and some being comes out and starts choking him and, and almost. And he starts sweating and people, you know, there's all theories he's having an epileptic seizure, but his wife Khadijah tells him, no, no, that's the angel Gabriel. Okay, so that's how it starts. And so the Quran, every verse you see is supposedly Gabriel telling Muhammad to recite Quran. That's where we get the word. Okay, so that's the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which now means read. But he was illiterate, so Iqra in next context is recites. And that's what the Quran means, you know, the recital, the recital of Gabriel, verbatim, telling Muhammad what Allah wants. Okay, that's what you're reading in the Quran, supposedly. Okay, okay, now I just blanked out. What was I telling you?

Jillian Michaels (34:26)

You were telling me the history of how he's peaceful.

Raymond Ibrahim (34:28)

Oh, yeah, the, the dual thing. Okay, so the age. All right, so don't say that to me.

Jillian Michaels (34:36)

I know it all too well.

Raymond Ibrahim (34:37)

Yeah, yeah, we're the same right now.

Jillian Michaels (34:39)

I'm a fantastic editor. No one's old here. Because we're the same age.

Raymond Ibrahim (34:43)

No, no, it's not old, but it's all right. Older than I was.

Jillian Michaels (34:47)

Right, Same.

Raymond Ibrahim (34:48)

Okay, yeah, yeah. All right, so I have these moments now where I'm like, deeply involved and then all of a sudden, like what

Jillian Michaels (34:53)

I know, I do the same. You go down a rabbit hole and you're like, wait, hold on. I started over here and I was so passionate.

Raymond Ibrahim (34:59)

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so the, the Mecca thing, all right, so the Mecca verses, if you look at the Mecca or the earth, okay, and all the verses are revelations from angel, as I said. Now, the Mecca verses, if you look at them, I mean, first of all, the whole Quran is really, it's in Arabic, it's, it's poetry. And a lot of it just, is just vague. Doesn't make sense. And that's another problem because to. If you read it as a, as a translation especially, you're not even going to know what's going on. But amongst Muslims, there's a whole science about. No, no, this is. This is what the exegesis, which, if you're just. If you're a casual American or, you know, English reader, and you. You won't really know what's going on. Okay. But anyway, don't they sort of do

Jillian Michaels (35:39)

that with Christianity, though? It was an interpretation.

Raymond Ibrahim (35:41)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course, everyone involved is involved in exegesis. But that's what I mean, even in Christianity, it's easy to read it and say, oh, this is what it means. But then there's a whole school of thought. I understand, you know, by the jurists and. Or, you know, the theologians. So anyway, the early verses.

Jillian Michaels (35:58)

Oh, my gosh. Okay. This is where I just.

Raymond Ibrahim (36:00)

Deeper than you thought.

Jillian Michaels (36:04)

Religion has been a struggle for me because it's been so divisive amongst humanity throughout, you know, our existence. But I, like, I really try to understand it because it means so much to so many people. Jesus. I can wrap my head around the teachings of Jesus. I'm like. I like all this stuff. Like, I can't get in. I don't know about the divinity stuff, but, like, this whole, you know, love your neighbor and don't be a scumbag. I'm into that.

Raymond Ibrahim (36:29)

I like that a lot.

Jillian Michaels (36:31)

But the others, this is particularly jihad, okay? Jihad stuff is alarming. And then. Okay, so. So here we are. I'm peaceful Muhammad now.

Raymond Ibrahim (36:38)

Peaceful Muhammad gets all these verses which Muslims love to quote. And he says, you know, you have your religion, I have my religion. There's no coercion in religion. And. And also, there's no militancy in the Meccan verses. Okay, why? Well, it just so happens that he basically. Basically, he was already. He was an orphan. He didn't come from, you know, the higher noble class. It's the Kurish. That tribe was dominant, and they're pagans at the time, polytheists. And he comes up with the monotheistic message, okay? That's his whole thing. And he gets, I don't know, 100 followers in 10 years. All right? But he keeps agitating and annoying these people, so they eventually drive him out. And he does what's called the hijra. And if I forget, we need to talk about this because Mamdani mentioned the hijra, which is migration. He migrates to Yathrib, which we call now Medina. Okay, that city. Yeah, and we'll get into that. He goes now to Medina, and now he becomes a political leader. Okay? He's. He basically gets elevated. Elevated. It's actually. It has, it's, it's a lot of Jewish tribes, a lot of pagan Arab tribes, and they all coalesce and he becomes essentially, eventually a warlord. They start going on raids and he starts winning. And with every win, he gets more plunder and more followers. Because that's the mentality. Hey, now. Okay, now I believe God's with you because, hey, we're winning. Okay. It was that mentality. Still is, actually.

Jillian Michaels (37:59)

It's. I was gonna say.

Raymond Ibrahim (38:00)

Yeah, it still is. And so, as in, as much as Muhammad go gets stronger and he gets more followers and then he. And so now the, the Medina versus the Revelations are still going. You know, Gabriel's still hanging out with him and telling him what's going on. They become a lot more militant, all right? And now they're no longer sounding about, oh, you have your way and I have my way. It becomes a lot more aggressive and a lot more assertive. Always consummate with Muhammad's circumstances, which he's getting stronger all this time. And then, long story short, by. So the Hijra is in 622. This is when he's kicked out of Mecca and he goes to Medina from 622 until 6:30. Finally, he conquers almost the whole of Arabia and Mecca, okay, he takes over Mecca, which was the.

Jillian Michaels (38:46)

You never hear of him like an Alexander the Great or a Genghis. Genghis Khan kind of a character.

Raymond Ibrahim (38:51)

No, no. Yeah. I mean, because it's still small scale. I mean, this is just Bedouin tribal warfare. It's not massive, you know, Mongolian hordes in that sense, but it's still bloodshed and killing and decapitating and crucifying, you know, but to the Romans and Persians, this was just, you know, like, okay, these Bedouins are doing their thing down there. Okay, as usual. So they didn't take too much note of it. Now the. Now here's the thing. If I just read the Quran,

Jillian Michaels (39:21)

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Raymond Ibrahim (44:00)

But if you're born into it, you know, this is the thing. It's easy for you in your current epistemology to say that, but if you're, this is all you've ever known and everyone around you thinks this way and everyone talks this way, then that becomes the norm and you're weird to them. You know what I mean?

Jillian Michaels (44:14)

I'm exceptionally weird. I'm exceptionally weird. But what I struggle with so much on top of that personal belief that I have is knowing what we know now. So if you took me back a few thousand years ago and we didn't even understand, you know, the fact that we live in a galaxy, let alone a universe, let alone arguably infinite universes, that time and space are completely relative, like there could be multiple dimensions, like you're effing around on what, Carl Sagan, you know, the pale blue dot floating in this cosmic monster sized universe, like this is absurd. And so now that we know this, though, you know, I can't understand why we're still doing it. How are we not looking back, going, oh, okay, so they thought that this was the center of the universe here Earth and everything was about us and all of that. We're the center of everything now that you know all of this.

Raymond Ibrahim (45:15)

But do they? A lot of them are. No, no, no. Even here in the west, people are now saying we have a flat earth. I mean, very few. No, no, I know, but my point is the conspir mind is such. And it's really rife in the Islamic and Arab world especially that anything the west says is often. Oh yeah, they're liars. I'm not saying they believe the earth is flat. I'm just saying go to the college

Jillian Michaels (45:39)

kids, go to the kids at Harvard, go to the kids at Princeton at these Ivy League schools that are being indoctrinated in this way. Mom, Donnie was one of those kids. So they're surely getting an incredible education on physics, I mean, math, astronomy, they know these things. At what point does do these young intelligent minds look at this and say, well, some doctor, maybe he was schizophrenic, he's hearing voices.

Raymond Ibrahim (46:11)

That's a well known theory. Yeah.

Jillian Michaels (46:13)

Oh, is it?

Raymond Ibrahim (46:14)

Oh yeah. A lot of people that's, they think he was. Okay, the theories go from he was, he had epilepsy. From he was, Gabriel was a demon. He was demon possessed. This was actually the go to Christian explanation of Muhammad and the, the, you know, the epileptic. That's later as people become more secularized because he would fall and foam at the mouth because. Yeah, but, but it was understood by Muslims. Oh yeah. Because of the power of the angels inside him. And he's about to give us a revelation.

Jillian Michaels (46:43)

My God, this poor guy's having a seizure.

Raymond Ibrahim (46:44)

But let me just finish the, the two things. No, no, it's okay, because it's really important.

Jillian Michaels (46:49)

Okay.

Raymond Ibrahim (46:49)

So now he's powerful in Mecca and all these verses come out and now it's about warfare. So you have a verse, for example, it's known as the sword verse and it's one of the latest verses or revelations. Okay. And this one just is. Remember we were talking about the Old Testament uses kind of finite language.

Jillian Michaels (47:08)

Yes.

Raymond Ibrahim (47:08)

This is an open ended command. It says fight the polytheists wherever you find them, lay in wait, ambush them, kill them, take them as slaves. Okay. And another, also a sword verse 929, it's the same chapter or Surah says fight the people of the book, who up until then, during the Meccan phases, the People of the book were understand there's Christians and Jews got it where you know, there's a, there's some decent words towards them. And this is what people again cherry pick and say, oh, he speaks well of Christians and Jews. Okay. But now the final verse is fight those people until they are subjugated and they pay tribute, which is called jizya and you. And feel themselves humbled. Okay, so, and now here's the thing. If you look at the Quran, it's what are we going to follow? I mean there's this verse that's saying peace. There's this verse saying war. So the jurists, and this is, there's complete consensus about this, came up with this idea of called its abrogation. All right, which is in Arabic's folder, which means this verse abrogates that verse and the old then you. So basically a long story short, the newer verses, the final revelations abrogate all the old ones. And it just so happens that the newest ones is when Muhammad was at his pinnacle of his career waging jihad on everyone. Okay, but, and now, now we can come to here to today's now what Muslims do. So they understand this, but they also use the same exact paradigm, which is okay, so when I'm weak, I'm, I can talk like the Meccan verses because that's what Muhammad did. But once I, circumstances change, I can do what Muhammad did, which is now I can go on the offensive. And I'll, I'll end this with a final little acute anecdote which I share often from the Library of Congress. I used, when I used to work there, there were many Muslims. I used to work in the African Middle Eastern division with Arabic books and other books. And there was a Muslim man there and we were actually on friendly terms. You know, we kind of respected each other. He knew what I was about and I knew what. And he, I, he was what you would call radio radical. Okay.

Jillian Michaels (49:02)

Oh, God.

Raymond Ibrahim (49:03)

But you wouldn't know it. I knew it because I can, I have an eye for that. Okay. Yeah. And we would talk often and sometimes in the cafeteria we would debate Islam in a friendly debate. And I mentioned all this was such

Jillian Michaels (49:15)

a thing, by the way, that, that. Well, I want to get to that.

Raymond Ibrahim (49:17)

Please.

Jillian Michaels (49:17)

Sorry, I won't take.

Raymond Ibrahim (49:18)

I'll finish it real quick.

Jillian Michaels (49:19)

Yeah, no, no, don't, don't be quick. Take as much time.

Raymond Ibrahim (49:21)

Okay.

Jillian Michaels (49:21)

Okay. Yeah.

Raymond Ibrahim (49:22)

So we're in the cafeteria and we're talking. I'm telling him what I just told you. I'm like. Because he's telling me, no, no, Islam's peace. And he quotes the Meccan verses. So I'm like, yeah, what about the Medina inverses? And aren't you aware that, you know, in as much as Muhammad's circumstances change it? So did his tactics. Okay. And he's like, no, no, no. But I kept pushing it, and finally he just smiles at me and goes, what do you want? I'm in Mecca because I'm in the United States and I'm weak and I'm outnumbered. So of course I'm. I'm talking about the Meccan verse. You understand the significance. Yeah. Okay. And I think there's a lot of Muslims who think that way and who will talk about the American verses because they are following the Prophet, the Prophet's example, which is when he was weak. Yeah. Islam is not suicidal. You know, for all the draconian. Draconian aura about Islam, it's actually very pragmatic. And so you, as a Muslim polity, must wage war on your neighbor if they're weak. If they're not and it's not advantageous for you and you don't have a good chance of winning, then don't. Okay. So, you know, the. The. The popular idea that we have of, like, all jihadis are psychotic and just ready to blow themselves up, which exists, of course.

Jillian Michaels (50:35)

Oh, yeah. Everyone says they invite death. They love death. They don't have our. Our.

Raymond Ibrahim (50:39)

The more dangerous ones are the majority who are smart and bide their time and are involved in what's called creeping Sharia and Islamist machinations and who use the system against the west and who cry Islamophobia. They're the ones who are really smart, but the ones to me, isis, you know, I always call them very refreshing because for all their atrocities, at least they really call it out. You know, they actually. So Al Qaeda, I was telling you that, you know, was involved in this massive dissembling campaign, telling the west grievances, but then telling Muslims hate them. ISIS comes up, writes an article, and says why we are fighting you and why. And the first thing they say is, because we hate you, because you're an infidel and has nothing to do with what you've done to us. So I find that a little bit refreshing because they're at least honest. But most Muslims are, you know, a little more strategic than that, and they're engaged in that entire panoply of strategies that I mentioned.

Jillian Michaels (51:32)

Okay, why does. Why does Saudi Arabia say that these groups who plan to take down the west, like the Muslim Brotherhood. I was just talking to Brigitte Gabrielle and she's like, here's their 100 year plan. It's been it after 9, 11 and, and all of that. Like this was, this is a DOJ document. It's written out and we're 35 years into it here in the United States. And you see it, you see it in the schools, you see it in our policies. You see it. Saudi sees it. The UAE is now saying, yeah, we're not going to send kids to go to school in the UK because we don't want them to be radicalized. So I'm like, well, hold on. So are you guys saying, yeah, this whole Ummah thing, you know, of just being loyal to all Muslims, they put the blockade on Qatar because Qatar would not label the Muslim Brotherhood a terror group. Do they see it like, are they going, you know, this part of the religion is a no go anymore.

Raymond Ibrahim (52:35)

Do Muslims see this?

Jillian Michaels (52:36)

Why does Saudi label these groups as terrorists?

Raymond Ibrahim (52:39)

Right, right.

Jillian Michaels (52:40)

And, and then the United Kingdom is being brought to its knees.

Raymond Ibrahim (52:44)

Yeah, no, no, great, great question. And I'll explain it as this. And so the Muslim Brotherhood is actually born in Egypt right around 1928. And in its early manifestations it was engaged in terrorism, but it learned early on, you know, to play the game and you know, to be more involved in the sort of clandestine civilization even in, even in Egypt, okay? And Egypt, think about it. It's born in Egypt and it's banned in Egypt. Okay. It's banned in Saudi Arabia. It's banned in a lot of countries. Okay? So these Muslim countries who pride themselves on being Muslim are banning this group for being a terrorist organization, whereas the west is not doing that and is letting them go in the name of, you know, freedom and, etc. Now the reason the Muslim groups do it, it's kind of odd why. And these Muslim regimes, the problem is they're always kind of like, you know, they're trying to skirt a fine line. On the one hand they have to present themselves as good pious Muslims to be accepted by their own people. And on the other hand you have groups like the Muslim Brotherhood who are trying to overthrow them because you're not good enough of a Muslim. A lot of the Al Qaeda figures, for example, and ISIS branched out of the Muslim Brotherhood, they were originally Muslim Brotherhood members, but they got tired of the slow incremental gain and they wanted some action. They wanted some jihad.

Jillian Michaels (54:05)

Okay, yes, yeah, yeah, that's.

Raymond Ibrahim (54:08)

But almost all of them are born in from the Muslim Brotherhood. That's the, the like the grandfather organization of all. Amen. Zawahiri, who became the Al Qaeda reader, a leader, was. Was a Muslim Brotherhood figure.

Jillian Michaels (54:21)

Wow.

Raymond Ibrahim (54:21)

Yeah. And it's again, like, I saw people are all excited in France. There's some motion about kind of outlawing the Muslim Brotherhood. And I'm just thinking now, you know,

Jillian Michaels (54:32)

I was gonna ask.

Raymond Ibrahim (54:33)

Muslim countries are doing this and you are not doing it. You know, is it. You don't get it.

Jillian Michaels (54:39)

We haven't done it. But I have to wonder if part of the reason we have not done that is because we're so deeply in bed with Qatar. You know, you got a half a billion dollar plane, they just gave our president. We've got our top air base over there. So on one hand, it's like, no, no, no, no. We're Qatar, they're our allies. But it's like, but not really. But kind of really. But not really. But they house all these terrorists over there, like leaders of Hamas and stuff. But no, they're good negotiators on our behalf, but not really. But really. But then they spend 23 billion lobbying our politicians and soft money on the kids at Harvard and influencing their brains. But not really. So then part of me wonders, are we not labeling the Muslim Brotherhood a terror group in America because of all Qatar's money?

Raymond Ibrahim (55:29)

It could well be because Qatar is definitely a massive supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Jillian Michaels (55:33)

Right? That's got, that's got to be. And if you need them right now to negotiate peace in Gaza, if you need them when Iran is on the brink right now, I guess I could see why, if I was Trump, I may be like, I don't know that we can make this move right now.

Raymond Ibrahim (55:48)

Realpolitik, like, if somebody, if somebody said

Jillian Michaels (55:53)

that to me, if I'm President of the United States and I'm trying to expand the Abraham Accords and I'm trying. I need Qatar to play ball. And I understand the loyalty amongst Muslims, despite the fact that Saudi and UAE Dubai are like, yeah, that group is a no go. Egypt, same thing. But I need them to play ball. And they support the Muslim Brotherhood and they're giving us on top of it, all this money. I might be like, let's hold off on that for a second until we get all this stuff done that we can get it done later. I mean, if you feel like it's for the greater good.

British Man in Viral Video (56:26)

But

Jillian Michaels (56:29)

I want to go back for just one second. You talked to me about how Muhammad had expanded and taken over all of the Arab world, but jihad went on for 1400 years, bringing us to now. Right. And what's crazy is, oh, this, these Pakistanis, they're Muslim. Oh, the Indian, they're Muslim. Oh, the Somali guys, they're Muslim. You go to, I was in Tanzania, it's called Dar El Salaam. When you land, I'm like, okay, everything's in Arabic, it's Muslim. Hold on. It's. I mean, he was very successful. It's everywhere.

Raymond Ibrahim (57:05)

We need to talk about that. Yeah. So this is actually now this is what I've always found fascinating. This is what I've always found most people don't know about. And this is, this will answer, I think, a lot of things because, you know, all your questions, which are good and which I, which I've asked myself. The problem with them is a lot of people try to answer it from, okay, let's look at the scriptures. Look, let's look at the Quran. And we've done that. And I think that's legitimate. I do that all the time. But the weakness in that and how people use it is exactly as you said. Well, the Bible says that. The Bible has violence. Why are you pinning it on Muslims? Okay, so that's always been the game.

Jillian Michaels (57:39)

That's the top.

Raymond Ibrahim (57:40)

Yeah, yeah, that's always been the game. So for me, a long, long time ago, I said, okay, let's put the scriptures aside, let's see what really happened. What did, what did Muslims do? Now the narrative amongst. And I, because I was in higher academia and I was involved and I've read their books, is basically Islam in the medieval era was this beacon of light and tolerance and Europe was backwards and savage.

Jillian Michaels (58:02)

Yes, yes.

Raymond Ibrahim (58:03)

Crusades that started all the problems. Okay, so let me give you a quick corrective of what really happened, which is the antithesis of what you've been told. Right. So Muhammad does his thing. Muhammad dies in 632. A lot of the Arabians try to break away. And then the first Khalif, which means successor of Muhammad, political leader.

Jillian Michaels (58:21)

Yeah, yeah, got it.

Raymond Ibrahim (58:22)

He re. He wages wars on the apostates, brings them back in the fold. Okay.

Jillian Michaels (58:28)

The posits the people trying to leave. Yeah, got it.

Raymond Ibrahim (58:30)

Yeah. 634, two years later, he dies. And now you have the first, the second Khalif, Omar. And this is the, the traditional opening of the Arab conquests, as they're known historically. So now what does the world look like in the seventh century? And this is what most, I know, Americans, maybe Westerners, don't get it. They always think of Africa, North Africa, Egypt and Syria and the Middle east and Morocco, as always having been, you know, if not Islamic, Eastern and different, they actually weren't. That was the heart of the Christian world in the seventh century, if you looked at all of Christendom. But we always just think of Europe. Okay, yeah, it was in Europe, but the bulk of it, the older part of it, the more important, sophisticated part, was what we call the Arab world today. It was Egypt, it was Greater Syria, which encompassed, you know, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Iraq, part. It was Asia Minor, Turkey. And that's. That's where, you know, Paul sends most of his letters to that place. Okay. This is where Christianity was embedded. This is why the first Roman emperor who became Christian Constantine, moved to the east, because that's where the Christian world was. Okay? So in one century after Muhammad's death, 632 by 732 Muslims have conquered. If you look at the map, and other historians have said this, literally three quarters of the Christian world, through violent jihad, they've conquered Egypt, which is one of the most profoundly Christian nations. They conquered Syria. They conquered. So if you go all throughout the west, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, they went into Spain in 711 and conquered Spain. I give you the. I give you the year 732, one century after Muhammad, because that's the year they're in the middle of France, and that's the Battle of Tours. It's a famous battle where they're finally halted. Okay? So. And then there's a new iteration a few centuries later. The Turks, now they become Muslim. They become the standard bearers of jihad. And. And. And they go. And now they conquer Constantinople, they conquer the Balkans, Southeast Europe, and. And more than a millennium after Muhammad, they're at Vienna in 1683. All right? And so if you really look at a map, okay, Islam swallowed up most of Christendom, as it was known at the time, and it continued. People don't realize that there were so many European slaves being. Being slaves, Slavic millions, not just them. They would go to Iceland. As far as distant Iceland they went and would get slaves from there. They had a little island called Lundy right off of Britain, and they would actually use it to get slaves from England. And according to conservative estimates, in just the 16th century, you had 1.25, one and a quarter million European slaves being sold. And. And the conditions, I mean, really are horrific because. Because of that old hatred. It's not just, you're my slave, I have contempt for you. Right, okay. And America. So to cap off this little historical

Jillian Michaels (61:33)

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Raymond Ibrahim (62:01)

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Jillian Michaels (64:22)

Okay, I have never even heard of this.

Raymond Ibrahim (64:24)

Oh, well, it gets better.

Jillian Michaels (64:26)

So embarrassed.

Raymond Ibrahim (64:27)

No, no, it's okay. No, you shouldn't be embarrassed.

Jillian Michaels (64:29)

No idea.

Raymond Ibrahim (64:30)

The system doesn't want you to know this. That's why you haven't heard it. Okay? So they start enslaving American soldiers, sailors, and torturing them and engaging in a lot of horrific things. Okay? And then finally, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams go and meet one of the ambassadors of Barbary. All right? And we have the letter from Jefferson. He writes a. Jefferson about. Jefferson writes a meeting to Congress. I have it in my book, the full letter. And he says, okay, we, we told him, we said, you know, we consider everyone our friends. You know, why can't we just have trade and get along? What do we do to you? And, and Jefferson writes, and the ambassador told us that it is in their Quran that they must wage war and wait an ambush and enslave all who reject the Authority of Allah, etc. Etc. And what. And the way Thomas Jefferson wrote that, in my mind, he's paraphrasing Quran 9, 5, which I told you is a sword verse, which literally says wait in an ambush for them, enslave them and attack them. So that's what the ambassador told him. And of course, Thomas Jefferson, this great enlightened paragon, doesn't understand this backwards Islamic Jihad stuff. Okay? So it's so. To him, it's so weird, but it's just. I just find it remarkable.

Jillian Michaels (65:37)

So weird. Not because I'm super enlightened, I just find it like unthinkable.

Raymond Ibrahim (65:42)

So from the very start, you have Muslims preaching, saying it's because of jihad, it's because we have to war on them. And they did war. They conquered three quarters of Europe. So Christian Europe at the time, or the Christian world, it had five major centers. Five Cs, right? One is Rome. The other four were all in the east. It was Alexandria and Antioch, Jerusalem and later Constantinople. All four got swallowed up. And we don't hear about that I'll give you an example of what the academics teach. There's a famous professor I used to go to Georgetown University. His name is John Esposito. And back in the day, in, you know, early 2000s, this guy was like the dawn. You know, the intelligent community would go to him for information about Islam etc. He has a book called Islam the Straight Path. And I've quoted this so many times that I've memorized it. Right. He writes this. Five centuries of peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Christians elapsed before an imperial papal power play led to a series of so called holy wars that have left a legacy of enduring mistrust. So what he's saying is that from

Jillian Michaels (66:43)

the dawn Christians broke the contract from

Raymond Ibrahim (66:45)

the dawn of Islam up until the first crusade in 1095. Okay. You know that period where Muslims conquered three quarters.

British Man in Viral Video (66:52)

Yes.

Raymond Ibrahim (66:53)

And tortured. No, no. And tortured and killed in bird churches. He calls that peaceful coexistence until the first Crusade. And while we're at it, the first Crusade again, the big lie nobody tells you is right before it, I've already explained to you, right, you know, what was happening, but right before it was a really new iteration was the Seljuk Turks. And what they were doing to Christians was horrific. Okay. They were, I mean, we can get into the graphic details, but there was always pilgrims from Europe going to the Holy Land and they would rape them and they would murder them and cut their, pull their intestines out and they would burn churches and, and this. And if you look at what they called why Pope Urban called the First Crusade, that's what he says. He talks about that. But they don't tell you again that they make it sound like, oh yeah, it was some colonial venture to go attack poor brown Muslims who never did anything to harm anyone.

Jillian Michaels (67:43)

That is the narrative.

Raymond Ibrahim (67:44)

Yeah, I know.

Jillian Michaels (67:45)

You know, it's funny, I was on Piers Morgan right after Bondi, by the way. Then you've got that one Muslim guy that takes down the other two Muslims. So it's like I could kiss. I donated to that guy's gofundme. Oh my. Oh my God. It's very hard to hold in your head, obviously, because we love to just make things as people, you know, black and white. It's good, it's bad. The nuance is a very tough place to live. So we end up in this conversation. And I'm saying, well, I, I think what's happening is it's the kind of the radicals, which now I know you don't Like. But that's how I was kind of perceiving it. And anyway, Wajahat Ali, who's. Who's Muslim, is like, oh, you're a white nationalist. I'm like, you know I'm Arab, right? Like, just to be clear. Is that. I guess, is. Is that a white nationalist?

Raymond Ibrahim (68:33)

Wait, you're Arab?

Jillian Michaels (68:34)

I'm Arab. Oh, you are Lebanese and Syrian and.

Raymond Ibrahim (68:36)

Oh, really?

Jillian Michaels (68:36)

Yeah. And. And 33% Austrian. Or, I'm sorry, Russian Jew.

Raymond Ibrahim (68:41)

O. A kinswoman.

Jillian Michaels (68:43)

Okay, I'm Arab. So, long story short, I reach out to him on dm. I'm like, listen, I don't. You know, because they're like, oh, there's no percentage of Islam that's radical. That's not true. These are false statistics. This is a narrative that you guys have used us white nationalists to go after us poor brown Muslims. And I said to him, I'm gonna post it in this frigging. I go, listen, I don't understand what you're talking about. These numbers that I pulled, this is from the Biden administration's intelligence agencies. Like, become. And explain to me, what do you mean? I genuinely want to hear your side. I want to know, what am I getting wrong? How am I, you know, promoting prejudice against you? Never responding.

Raymond Ibrahim (69:29)

Of course not.

Jillian Michaels (69:30)

Never. I'm like, tell me what I got wrong. I'm here for it. I want to get it right. I want to give you an audience to shame me on my show because I don't want it screwed up. And I meant every word of it. Never answer.

Raymond Ibrahim (69:42)

Well, what does that tell you, right?

Jillian Michaels (69:44)

That they never answer. They will not come on. It is impossible to get them to come on. And Cenk Uygur may, but, you know, he's come on for other things. He may, but with. Okay, so now here's really where we are. Is it too late for Europe? And what's. What's concerning you over the next 20 years? What needs to happen?

Raymond Ibrahim (70:13)

Yeah, that's a very interesting question, which I've been actually asked a lot about and been thinking a lot about. And people, they call me Denethor. I don't know if you're familiar with Lord of the Rings. Denethor is this character, he's a king, and he's like. He gives up and says, we're all gonna die. Go kill yourself. You know, because I sounded pessimistic. I wonder why. Yeah, yeah. But what I wanted. What I wanted people. Because I. I hate when people are just overly optimistic. Oh, yeah, we got this. We'll Figure it out. No, man. Times running out. All right? And here's what's going on. So you have, in Europe, you have countries who nipped it in the bud, okay? Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia. You know what they said? We don't want Muslim migrants. And they were out front, they were open about it, especially Hungary. He said, he actually, he actually invoked to the logic I'm giving. He said, we've lived under their Islamic rule. We were conquered by the Ottomans for 150 years. We know what it's like and no thanks. Okay? So that was his logic. And he's, he was so demonized for it. He's so hated for it, he probably

Jillian Michaels (71:09)

would have been like, oh, you want Muslim?

Raymond Ibrahim (71:11)

Yeah, yeah. Oh, so he, he's like, he's like a dirty word in Europe. Oh, he's a horrible. But now look at, he said this, he did this like 10 years ago when the migrant crisis, when it's at its peak. And of course Western Europe and the EU were like, no, no, no, we're going to take in as many as we can. Etc, Etc. Now here's the problem. If you know anything, if you look at Western Europe, especially wherever you have large Muslim groups, you have a lot of criminality, you have a lot of problems. You have segregation, you have ghettoization, you have the host society. The, the natives are afraid to go out, the women are afraid to be raped.

Jillian Michaels (71:45)

Okay, we've heard this now.

Raymond Ibrahim (71:46)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going on all the time.

Jillian Michaels (71:48)

Yeah.

Raymond Ibrahim (71:49)

Right. And now, now here's the problem. A lot of things, a lot of these Western European countries talk like, well, we're going to get tough on immigration, we're going to stop it. And what they don't seem to understand is you can stop it today. You still have a problem because you've got like anywhere from 8 to 12% Muslim population who are outbreeding you. So, so, for example, according to a Pew poll, In Germany, by 2050, that's less than 25 years. Okay. By 2050, without any more migration, they expect Muslims to be like over 20%. Okay, so what, what will be in 2075? What will be, you know, in 2100? Okay. Same thing for France and the UK. So I don't think people understand that.

Jillian Michaels (72:31)

It's, you know, the UK is terrifying. Oh, because you aren't allowed to say anything.

Raymond Ibrahim (72:36)

Exactly. Because the, the government is enabling and supporting and the Muslims and shutting you down.

Jillian Michaels (72:41)

Yes. Like, that's the part where, you know, you've got like Muslims in the street. You know, bring down the west and all of this.

Raymond Ibrahim (72:51)

And then you have a bread waving a British flag. And he gets attacked by the police.

Jillian Michaels (72:57)

The police go and take him to jail for a Facebook post.

Raymond Ibrahim (72:59)

I just saw a video of a woman walking her dog. British woman, but it's a Muslim community. And the police stopped her and forcibly moved her out because Muslims don't like dogs. You're not going that way.

Jillian Michaels (73:09)

Excuse me, guys, Two of you please.

Raymond Ibrahim (73:13)

Two of you straight away, As usual,

Jillian Michaels (73:29)

There is a hysterical post that went viral of a British guy talking about how, you know, I think it was Japan. He's like, imagine if we went to Japan. It was like, we're gonna need you to change out all this sushi for, you know, bangers and mash. No, you won't. You won't do that. What do you mean you're not gonna do. And we're gonna need you to pay for our housing and our health care and it sounds so absurd.

British Man in Viral Video (73:51)

Everything here is a little bit too Chinese. All the restaurants and cafes and that for a start, way too many noodles. I don't eat noodles. Pie, mash, ham, egg and chips. I mean, you need the cater to me. Yeah. No, I don't think you understand. I'm not from here. Okay? I left the UK because I didn't like it. All right? So I need you to change everything to make it feel like it's the uk. Yeah. Still no, is it?

Raymond Ibrahim (74:19)

Right.

British Man in Viral Video (74:19)

Okay. Well also, I can't really work at the minute. Anxiety. Yeah. So when do I get my money? Obviously got a few kids at home and also there they're gonna need to come here. That's a no brainer. Why do you keep saying no? I've noticed as well there's a lot of Chinese people here as well, isn't it? So I was thinking we could get loads of me over here and we have our own little area and then you lot can just off. Does that sound good? It doesn't. Well, no, hear me out because I was thinking if we get loads of me over here, then we can vote in, you know, one of me to be in charge and then we can all start telling you lot how to live. And after that, I was going to organize some marches where we go through the streets chanting anti Chinese sentiments. Though obviously you'll need to protect us while we do that. That, that's a no as well, is it? Oh, and finally, I am here illegally. Yeah, didn't respect the rules on that one. So do I just choose any hotel or have you Got certain prison.

Raymond Ibrahim (75:23)

I'm glad you bring this up because this is really going to show you how desensitized Western people have been. Incrementally conditioned. Because everything that the west goes through, and I've said this before, what you're describing, if you try to imagine this in any other civilization, it's mind gobbling, mind boggling. And the reason is because why is it even a. Even a dumb woke person in the west will find what you said weird. Like, of course Americans can't go tell the Japanese to give them. But for some reason they're convinced it's their job to do that to everybody. To just lay down prostate and I have to suppress my culture, my heritage, my religion to appease you. It's very interesting because they so on the one hand, instinctively, if they look at any other culture, they'll agree. They'll say, yeah, that's crazy. Like, what. How. Why are Chinese people going to, you know, Turkey and they've risen to the top and they've made the Turks, you know, suppress them. It would be weird. It would be like, that's colonization, right?

Jillian Michaels (76:19)

Yeah.

Raymond Ibrahim (76:19)

But when it's happening right under their nose, it's like, oh, no, this is. We're celebrating multicultural.

Jillian Michaels (76:24)

Because it's racist. Yeah, that's the problem.

Raymond Ibrahim (76:26)

Exactly.

Jillian Michaels (76:27)

It's racist.

Raymond Ibrahim (76:28)

But it's not racist for anyone else.

Jillian Michaels (76:30)

No, no, no. It's like when white people do it, it's imperialism and. Okay, so. So last question. Because I could. I mean, you've written 12 books and dozens and dozens of articles, and you have an incredible YouTube channel, and I want everyone to go check all of that out.

Raymond Ibrahim (76:47)

But

Jillian Michaels (76:49)

what do we do? You know, I'm trying to. I'm trying to kind of. It's scary. Sorry, before we get to the. What do we do? Are you afraid? And I ask you this because, like, I remember Charlie Hebdo in Paris where the cartoonists kind of made fun of Mohammed and they came in there and killed 12 people. I remember the Satanic Verses and what happened to Salman Rushdie. Stabbed. Not to death, but like, I wrote a book about it, I think lost his eye called Knife. I mean, even doing these podcasts, I'm like, oh, man. You know, my wife lived in Kuwait and she's like, I really. Babe, please stop talking about it. I'm like, well, I'm no one to talk about it compared to everyone else who's. So if they go on this, they're gonna go after you.

Raymond Ibrahim (77:35)

Yeah, I know.

Jillian Michaels (77:35)

You're gonna go after Gabrielle like Are you scared?

Raymond Ibrahim (77:41)

I think I'm desensitized at this point. I, you know, I kind of fell into this. I actually had a. I started off like an academic who was involved in this from a very historical point of view. And then I just fell into it due to circumstances, because it all happened in 9, 11. And then I was at Georgetown University, which was a leading, you know, university dealing with Arab and Islamic studies. Then I was at the Library of Congress. So I sort of come up from a very, sort of professional academic background, and my face was out in the open. I had no problem with it. And then. But then I started, you know, the more I delved and the more I spoke, the more I was saying what people didn't want. You'd be surprised if you go back to 2007. I was on CNN. I was on, you know, NPR, like, all these places. But then, you know, they. My message, you know, wasn't.

Jillian Michaels (78:25)

And they've taken money from Qatar, though.

Raymond Ibrahim (78:27)

Yeah, they have. Yeah. So that got cut out. But at this point, I mean, it's just. I think it's an important thing to be said. This is a very civilizational existential moment, and, you know, one person's life's not enough to just stop it all.

Jillian Michaels (78:42)

What do we do? I'm watching this. What do I do?

Raymond Ibrahim (78:45)

Well, this is a good start. You're. You. We're talking about this. I always say, look, you know, before actions, you have to have the proper paradigm in your head, informed. Yeah. So that's why my mission is mostly what we're doing right now, which is because I still know a lot of people don't get it. Okay.

Jillian Michaels (79:02)

Oh, no.

Raymond Ibrahim (79:02)

Yeah. Obviously the majority. Right. So we're still in this, you know, learning phase. I believe if everyone gets it, or at least a majority, then it will all fall into place. I'll give you an example. You know, you're familiar with these Sharia hearings.

Jillian Michaels (79:17)

Yes.

Raymond Ibrahim (79:17)

Okay. Which is. I think it's good on the one hand. It's good because, you know, people are becoming critical and they're saying, you know, okay, Islam's okay, but you can't have this Sharia. Okay. That's a good step, and I'm glad that's happening. But what people are going to eventually learn as we progress is, guess what? Sharia and Islam are inexplicable or are inseparable.

Jillian Michaels (79:35)

Yeah.

Raymond Ibrahim (79:35)

So if you. So I see someone like Greg, Greg Abbott, Texas Governor, saying, like, Sharia has no place here in Texas. And I've seen Bush say things well, in my mind, in a Muslim's mind, what you're saying is Islam has no place here because there is no Islam without Sharia.

Jillian Michaels (79:51)

Right.

Raymond Ibrahim (79:52)

So, you know, hopefully, as you know, people learn more and more and they connect the dots. You start understanding. Well, you know, maybe Islam isn't just a religion. Maybe it's a political ideology which is in conflict with the Constitution.

Jillian Michaels (80:05)

The thing. Because I am a firm believer, like, I am a classic liberal in that, like, I don't care who you pray to.

Raymond Ibrahim (80:11)

Libertarian.

Jillian Michaels (80:12)

I.

Raymond Ibrahim (80:13)

Right.

Jillian Michaels (80:13)

I don't care who you love. I don't care. That is you. Peace be upon you.

Raymond Ibrahim (80:18)

This is.

Jillian Michaels (80:18)

I would be like, oh, I relate to that, to you, your religion, to me, mine, your way of life, me, my. Like all of that. I'm like, yeah, take it. Yes. And then, you know, the later Muhammad, I'm like, no. Oh, my God, no. So it would be so antithetical for me, me to say, like, I don't want you being Muslim in my country.

Raymond Ibrahim (80:38)

Yeah.

Jillian Michaels (80:39)

I just. The assimilation, the anti west, the subjugation

Raymond Ibrahim (80:44)

of the infidel, the Muslim is forbidden from assimilating. I mean, it's. It's already hard enough for people to assimilate who are from a different culture, you know, but in Islam, it's. And this is what I'm saying. Muhammad took tribalism and deified it. It's no longer just. It's hard enough to get a tribal, you know, person to become Westernized. Right. But imagine in his mind, also a part of my religion. I can't. I can't become Westernized. I have to hate these people. This is what makes this really insurmountable and what makes really Islam distinctive amongst other cultures and religions.

Jillian Michaels (81:14)

Raymond, I could. I could literally keep you probably for two days where. Okay, you have, I think, 12 books and, and. And a freaking YouTube channel. Where do people start with your content? How do they learn more? Because there's a lot to know, obviously.

Raymond Ibrahim (81:31)

Yeah. I have several books and I. I would start actually with the more recent the three that people. I call them my trilogy. It's my last three books, which are Sword and Scimitar, 14 Centuries of War between Islam and the West. And that really covers what we've been talking about. The long. It really shows you. Yeah, forget about doctrine. I spend like a short intro about doctrine and his. And. And the Quran. But then I say, okay, so let's see what happened. And lo and behold, history is one long manifestation of the doctrine. So it is a real thing. But I have other books Like Defenders of the west, which talks about actual how European men fought back, which is. And a lot of young guys get inspired by that because they've been taught to just be doormats, especially they're Christians. My job is to just fall down and let everyone, you know, wipe their feet on me.

Jillian Michaels (82:18)

Yeah.

Raymond Ibrahim (82:18)

And I have a new. My newest book, which came out just two months ago, is. It's called the Two Swords of Christ and it deals with the military orders, the Templars and the Hospitallers. Okay. Yeah. And my YouTube channel. Yeah. Please visit that. Thanks for mentioning it. I think it's just my name, but the logo is the Holy War Channel because that's what I talk about. Jihad and Crusades. And I have a sub stack as well. Finally I got to it. It's great. Yeah.

Jillian Michaels (82:43)

Okay, I'll link to it, guys.

Raymond Ibrahim (82:45)

Thank you. And yeah, all those are social media. I have things and they're on my website, raymond Ibrahim.com. but I'm not a very social media active guy. But I try, you know.

Jillian Michaels (82:55)

Okay. I'm definitely subscribing to the substack. I think I'm going to start on Sword and Scimitar.

Raymond Ibrahim (83:00)

Yeah, that's the best one to start with, actually. It's the first one and it's the most. It'll give you really the like panoramic view of what happened between the west

Jillian Michaels (83:09)

and Islam is this whole concept of, you know, you give your life and in the afterlife there's a bunch of virgins. Is that real or is that. That's in the Quran.

Raymond Ibrahim (83:19)

Yeah. 72 virgins.

Jillian Michaels (83:21)

That's in the Quran.

Raymond Ibrahim (83:22)

It's. No, no, in the. Okay, in the Quran, the virgins are mentioned. They're called the houris. And they're described as basically supernatural women. Big bosomed. And the, the name comes from their very like dark iris, black eyes and whatnot. Houris. And they are created for the express purpose of the sexual gratification of Allah's favorites, his martyrs. And, and, and. Okay, so now then the Hadith gets into the gory details, which is. Or graphic details, which is the sex is amazing and you, your penis never goes flack and all you do is copulate with these beautiful women. And in this book, in. Not in the Quran, it's in the hadith, but it's considered canonical. It's. It's considered part of the literature. Some, you know.

Jillian Michaels (84:07)

Okay, so the Hadith is a, A separate book.

Raymond Ibrahim (84:10)

The Hadith is. The Hadith means the like narrations of people who heard Muhammad say this oh,

Jillian Michaels (84:17)

like the prophets kind of thing?

Raymond Ibrahim (84:18)

Yeah, yeah, it's. But it's. It's the secondary book to the Quran. It's called. They're called the twin pillars of Islam. So how do we know what we do? Well, the Quran and the Hadith, and then from the Hadith, you get what's called the Sunnah, which means the example. Okay. But anyway, all that is. And. And, you know, even though you. You get to divergenize them, but then the hymen grows back, so you can do it again. I mean, I know this sounds absurd, but it's in the books and Muslims talk about it, and that doesn't mean they all believe it like we said, or, you know, but, I mean, it's in their books.

Jillian Michaels (84:51)

I cannot thank you enough. You're wonderful.

Raymond Ibrahim (84:53)

Thank you for having me, Julian. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. This is awesome.

Jillian Michaels (84:56)

Thank you so much for watching. If you enjoyed the podcast, please, like, comment, subscribe and share. And make sure to let me know what guests you want to see on in the future.