Are the Minions master movie makers? + Edward Norton & Olivia Wilde on THE INVITE

Summary

Podcast Summary: Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Are the Minions master movie makers? + Edward Norton & Olivia Wilde on THE INVITE

Date: July 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo’s inimitable blend of film reviews, industry banter, and cultural recommendations. The headline topics include a deep-dive review of “Minions and Monsters,” an interview with Edward Norton and Olivia Wilde about their new dark comedy “The Invite,” discussions on current box office hits like “Supergirl” and “Toy Story 5,” and reflections on the legacy and style of adult ensemble comedies. The episode is characteristically witty, anecdote-rich, and film-besotted.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter & Kermode's Birthday (03:17-05:00)

• Mark is wearing a “Made in 1963” t-shirt and reflects humorously on turning 63 in the year 2026.
  • “This birthday today, tomorrow, yesterday… is actually my 63rd birthday. So it’s that weird thing about I was born in ’63 and I am 63.” (Mark, 03:41)
• Simon reads out birthday wisdom sourced from “the Old Gray Thinker” about the advantages of age.
  • “This is the neurological advantage nobody mentions. We’re not fading, we’re finally seeing the full picture.” (Simon, 04:37)

2. Travel Anecdotes & Comic Mishaps (05:02-08:47)

• Mark describes a chaotic trip to Croatia: lost luggage, overbooked flights, and crowd energy at a Croatia football match.
  • “To lose the bags on the way out and then lose them on the way back and we still don’t have them back. They’re obviously on a tour of the world.” (Mark, 07:44)
• Simon reminisces about a radio slip playing the uncensored “Kick Out the Jams” and the infamous “melon farmers” clean-up.

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3. Current Film Reviews & Chart Rundown (13:45-45:54)

Nirvana the Band the Show: The Movie (13:45-24:43, 17:07 excerpt)

• Mark reviews this Canadian absurdist mockumentary, comparing it to “Spinal Tap,” “Bill and Ted,” and “Trigger Happy TV,” noting its “anarchic, self-reflexive cinematic edge.”
  • The central conceit: Two hapless musicians attempt outlandish stunts (skydiving off the CN Tower, building a time machine) to get a gig.
  • Mark confesses confusion as a newcomer—struggled with “What’s real? Who’s in on the joke?”—but acknowledges the film’s craft and seamless blending of footage.
  • Notable Quote: “If you’re already invested in the characters… it’s terrific. If, like me, you’re going in stone cold… I found it harder to enjoy than I would have done.” (Mark, 22:42)
• Discussion about the series’ running gag over the pronunciation of “Nirvana/Nirvanna.”

Box Office Top 10 (27:23-47:22)

Brief reviews of several films:

• Private Life (La Vie Privee): Mark enjoys Jodie Foster’s bilingual performance.
• Obsession and Backrooms: Commended for indie horror ambition and lasting interest.
• Jackass: Mark highlights its unexpected warmth about male friendship.
• Disclosure Day: Listener Jocelyn Evans’ letter noted for its humor and reflection on eating sweets at the cinema.
• Supergirl (36:38-45:54):
  • Mark found it “overcluttered,” with frenetic editing, “shonky” CGI, and a muddled execution, though concedes Millie Alcock is a strong lead in need of a better film.
  • Listener responses range from enthusiasm (Susan: “fight scenes were exciting and the dog was adorable”) to criticism (Ed in Romsey: “came out headachy and irritated”).
• Toy Story 5:
  • Listeners found magic and nostalgia; Mark felt it was artificial and didn’t live up to prior entries but welcomes audience joy.
  • “All criticism is subjective and surprisingly enough, even though I didn’t like Toy Story 5 at all, I think the fact that it’s filling cinemas… is a positive thing.” (Mark, 47:22)

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4. Feature Interview: Edward Norton & Olivia Wilde on “The Invite” (50:02-63:23)

Film Introduction & Themes (51:16-52:28)

• Olivia Wilde: “The Invite is a comedy. A dark comedy, maybe. Ish. Darkish?... dinner party gone terribly wrong or terribly right, depending on your perspective.”
• Edward Norton: “He’s a bit of an enigma… by design. You don’t really know what this couple from upstairs is after.”

Creative Process & Adaptation (55:11-56:04)

• Based on Spanish play and film, but “very different from the source material… What it maintains is the question, can two people who have been together for a long time still maintain a sense of intimacy?” (Olivia)

Style & Homage (56:04-56:41)

• Mark: Film evokes an era when “adult comedies” about bourgeois anxiety flourished, nodding to French and American classics.
• Olivia: “That was the intention… so inspired by those movies and the experience of watching them in theaters.”

Production & Acting Techniques (58:23-61:04)

• Overlapping dialogue inspired by Robert Altman, captured by ace sound mixer Steve Morrow.
• Significant improvisation—Ed: “More improvisation in this film than any I’ve done… with the director saying ‘these are the basic… things, but let’s just go riff it.’”
• Olivia fostered an environment with “enormous physical liberation… enthusiasm for discovery and uncertainty… which is anathema to most directors.”

Memorable Moments

• Fun banter about color swatches and design (57:48), inspired by real-life conversations between Olivia and her production designer.
• Notable Quote: “Olivia created for the four of us a very singular experience in the sense of a space in which… there was nothing wrong we could do.” (Ed, 61:04)

Audience Guidance & Takeaways (63:23-72:33)

• Mark and Simon emphasize it's a dark, grown-up, sharply funny piece best watched with friends—“not a date movie.”
• Mark: “All under the kind of cloak of a polite engagement… I thought the whole thing was excruciating in a very good way.”

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5. Minions and Monsters Review: Are the Minions Master Movie Makers? (84:11-95:32)

Concept & Setting

• Pierre Coffin returns to the Minions universe after vowing to quit—lured back by the irresistible idea: “Minions wanting to make a monster movie, summoning a monster that turns against them and threatens the earth.”
• The movie is set in 1920s Hollywood, loaded with cine-literate references: Chaplin, Keaton, the Lumières, Méliès, The Day the Earth Stood Still, and The Blob.

Mark’s Verdict

• “The Minions are, for me, the modern day incarnation of Keaton and Lloyd and Chaplin in terms of the slapstick… a roller coaster, absolute roller coaster.” (Mark, 87:01)
• Praises “the central relationship between two misfit minions,” the slapstick, the meta-love-letter to cinema, and the multi-generational enjoyment.
• On cine-literacy: “Firstly, the level of cine-literacy in this movie is off the charts… but that’s not why it’s funny. It’s funny because it’s incredibly funny—the slapstick is done incredibly well.” (Mark, 89:09)
• Mark and Simon riff on how slapstick and the gibberish ‘Minionese’ (akin to Stanley Unwin’s comedic language) are extremely hard to master.

Simon’s Take

• “It’s a joy-filled 90 minute cinematic experience… the more you know about movies, the more you’re going to get, but the more you’ll find it intriguing.”
• Both agree: this is an instant rewatch request—the highest compliment for a family film.

Film of the Week

• Mark crowns “Minions and Monsters” as his pick: “I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved it.” (96:29)

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Additional Memorable Quotes & Lighter Moments

• Mark (on the orchestra at a live film concert, 10:41): “The way an orchestra applaud is that they stamp their feet. Do you remember this?... At the end of [my harmonica solo] they did the stampy feet thing. And I thought, what, are they walking out?”
• Simon (on movie profanity, 38:25): “There is no longer any restriction on, on, on sh—, and it’s just everywhere.”
• Ed Norton (on improvising for The Invite, 59:29): “Out of 50 films I’ve done, I think I’ve never been involved in anything where the director said, ‘let’s just go riff it’… I think Seth is one of the funniest one-liner machines that any of us know.”

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Highlighted Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:17 | Mark’s birthday banter and wisdom on aging | | 05:02 | Croatia tale and lost luggage anecdote | | 13:45 | “Nirvana the Band the Show: The Movie” review starts | | 17:07 | Clip from “Nirvana the Band…” | | 27:23 | Box office rundown begins | | 36:38 | Supergirl review and listener responses | | 45:54 | Toy Story 5 audience feedback | | 50:02 | Olivia Wilde & Ed Norton interview starts | | 59:19 | Deep-dive on improv process in “The Invite” | | 63:23 | Hosts’ reactions to “The Invite” | | 69:16 | Mark’s analysis: adult ensemble comedy and satire | | 84:11 | Minions and Monsters review starts | | 89:09 | Mark and Simon elaborate on Minions’ cine-literacy | | 96:29 | Film of the week announced |

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

• The show remains an engaging, witty, and literate guide to new film releases, blending personal anecdotes, critical depth, and listener correspondence.
• Mark and Simon’s chemistry is as sharp as ever, balancing deep passion for film with self-deprecating British humor.
• The episode celebrates cinephilia, intergenerational moviegoing, and the genre-crossing power of both the Minions and sophisticated adult comedies.
• Mark’s verdict is clear: “Minions and Monsters” is a cinephile’s delight and riotous family fun, while “The Invite” revives the art of the cleverly painful dinner party satire.

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For Next Week

• Upcoming: Director Thomas Kael on the live-action Disney “Moana” and a review of “Evil Dead Burn.”
• Regular overflow car park and five question film club content for Patreon subscribers.

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For feedback, correspondence, or your own review of “Minions and Monsters” or “The Invite,” email [e-mail]

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

Hello, Simon Mayo. It's Mark Kermode.

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

Sorry?

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

What password?

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

Simon, it's Mark. We. We host a podcast together.

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Mark Kermode]

Hello, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

Hello Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

I see your lovely new bookshelves haven't buckled yet. There's a particularly weighty and wise looking one by name Kermode on there too.

[Simon Mayo]

True, but getting them up nearly buckled me. Even giving up and hiring someone was a full time job.

[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[Mark Kermode]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in questions you can get

[Mark Kermode]

all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vang. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. I think the appropriate place to start this particular recording is for you to explain your T shirt, which you've only changed into like merely seconds ago off camera, which is, you know, disappointing for

[Mark Kermode]

obviously, it's a relief. Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

So it says made in 1963. This would apparently mean that it's your birthday.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So today that we're recording, this is Wednesday, but tomorrow, which is the day that it would go. Go live or whatever it is. Although actually I understand the video doesn't go live until Friday, so that probably is. Yes, I'm, I'm. I'm 51 again. No, I'm 60. What am I? I'm 63. I'm made in 63.

[Simon Mayo]

It's baffling because you always say a different age.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

So what do you actually.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I was born in 63, and this birthday, I am 63. So I have actually been 60. This birthday today, tomorrow, yesterday, if you're watching the video, is actually my 63rd birthday. So it's that weird thing about I was born in 63 and I am 63.

[Simon Mayo]

You're not rounding it up like normal.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, that's what I'm saying. I mean, every time I say on the radio I'm 63, I get an annoyed text from Dave Norris saying, you're not 63, you're 62, because he and I are the same age, but now I am 63. So I was born in 63 and I am 63. And all of this is a long way around leading up the garden path so that you can wish me happy birthday.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I wish you a happy birthday. And I wish you a happy birthday with this wisdom, which I only saw this morning, which is online from a bloke called the Old Gray Thinker.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, okay. Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

At 30, you have energy but limited perspective. At 50, you have skill but limited time. At 67, or 63, if you want, your brain has built roads between seemingly unrelated things. Music informs your gardening. Literature shapes how you cook. This is the neurological advantage nobody mentions we're not fading, we're finally seeing the full picture.

[Mark Kermode]

There we go. And can I also very quickly give you the full picture on. On my experience last week with, with KLM Airways? You know, I did last week you were in. I Was in Croatia. I was in Croatia. It was the, the, the Pontaloput Film Festival and we watched the Croatia match live. We watched the Croatia match live with the. Well, the one in which they played Ghana and they won. Was there another one since then?

[Simon Mayo]

No. They played England before that.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, no. But the one in which they won two, one in which there was a whole thing about. There was a goal and then we weren't sure whether it was offside and then it was. Everyone was intense but we were out. It was outdoor screening of it and they were going nuts. They were going absolutely nuts. And for the first time I kind of got sense. Oh, I can see how this might be quite fun to be in a crowd of people when your team, that team at that point being Croatia, because I think at the same time England were playing somebody else.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, they couldn't be playing the same teams. That's true.

[Mark Kermode]

No, not the same team. They were playing somebody else and. Oh, I see. That was a fine. Okay. I don't understand football. Did. Have we gone through what's happened?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, at the time, at the time of which we are recording the day before your birthday.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Today, England playing the Democratic Republic of, of Congo drc. And, and so by the time that we'll either been beaten embarrassingly by Dr. Congo or we'll have gone through triumphantly.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, all right. Well, I don't know what's happening except for that I was in a. I was in Croatia when they were playing another team and they, and they won and, and everyone went mad. But, but I was in Croatia and, and I, I flew to and from Croatia on KLM Airlines, who are apparently, you said, the oldest airline in the world.

[Simon Mayo]

Right? Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And, and so the experience of it was this flying out changed to Amsterdam, they lost their backs. So we arrived in Loudud, they'd lost the bags and they were in load and then they found the bags and then they sent the bags to us just in time for us to get the flight back via Amsterdam where they lost the bags a second time. So they still don't, still don't have the bags. And on the, on the morning of the way back, when we arrived at the airport, 4 o' clock in the morning, they said, ah, well, we've overbooked the plane so you can't fly on it. And then I explained to them in no uncertain terms that I was going to fly on it.

[Simon Mayo]

And then they were actually saying, what was your strategy here? Oh, I flatter them with kindness.

[Mark Kermode]

That's right. I flattered them with kindness. But I did. I did point out that I might. It would have been better off flying with klf. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And catching the last train to transcend.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly. Or driving an ice cream van across the thing. But yeah, no, literally, to lose the bags on the way out and then lose them on the way back and we still don't have them back. Have no idea where they are. They're obviously on a tour of the world at the moment.

[Simon Mayo]

It's time to kick out the jams. Melon farmers.

[Mark Kermode]

Melon farmers, exactly.

[Simon Mayo]

I famously played the wrong version of that on radio one, but.

[Mark Kermode]

No. Did you?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

You played the MC5 uncensored.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, it was KLF with the MC5 bit. And it. Because right at the very beginning it says, time to kick out the jam. And then it's on the radio version that the next bit is reversed, so it's all perfectly fine. And then I played one with. Without it reversed. And then the head of music rang up, rang into the studio, said, take it off, take it off. There's another one coming. There's another one. No, no, no, no, no, no, I don't think. Oh, there was.

[Olivia Wilde]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, I'll take it off. I'll take it off now. So we had a couple of melon farmers.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, well, find my bags. Melon farmers would have been a.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, you're very welcome to the show, everybody. Mark later, once in his. In his youth, will be getting excited about these films. Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

So we have reviews of Nirvana, the Band, the show, the movie Minions and Monsters. You will have heard Simon's interview with Pierre Coffin last week in the chart rundown. We have the delayed review of Supergirl because, as you know, they didn't screen that until Tuesday night. At which point KLM were in the process of losing my bags. And the invite with our very special guests. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Two of the stars of that film, Edward Norton and Olivia Wilde. She's also directed the movie. And a bonus review, intake 2.

[Mark Kermode]

Mark, I think there is a 50th anniversary reissue of Taxi Driver and this will mean something particularly to you, because when we. In a previous incarnation of this show, we did a show from Salford with a. With a whole orchestra doing movie music, and we played the theme from Taxi Driver as part of that concert and it was one of the highlights of the show.

[Simon Mayo]

That's right. When you say we. We played.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, we didn't play.

[Simon Mayo]

No, I was observing.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Robert Ziegler conducted and the orchestra played the instruments. But we sat there and stroked our chins and went well done.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I remember that show for all, all the good reasons, because it was fantastic. And what a, you know, what a thrill to do a show with a live orchestra. I particularly remember going on air. Was that two o' clock or something?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, two o' clock in the afternoon.

[Simon Mayo]

And. And within two minutes the whole orchestra got up and left. Where the hell are they going? And it was, it was their break. It was time for a break. It was a unionized thing and it was like, well, hang on, we just started the show. Could you not have gone beforehand? But anyway, no, they had their regimented breaks and so off they went.

[Mark Kermode]

The other thing that I discovered at that show that I hadn't known before is that the way an orchestra applaud is that they stamp their feet. Do you remember this? That they don't.

[Simon Mayo]

Violinists and cellists don't. They sort of tap their bow against their instrument?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I just remember the sound of that because, because at that show I played the chromatic harmonica on the theme for Midnight Cowboy and I'm not a very good chromatic harmonica player, but I got away with it. And at the end of it they did, they very kindly, I mean, maybe ironically did the stampy feet thing. And I thought, what, are they walking out? You know, and he said, no, no, that's, that's how they applaud. How do they applaud?

[Simon Mayo]

Sarcastically?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I think, I think there was definitely was sarcastic footsounding in the same

[Simon Mayo]

way if, if you're holding an instrument that costs maybe hundreds of thousands of pounds, you're not gonna just put it down to clap, are you? You're gonna do something else.

[Mark Kermode]

What can you do?

[Simon Mayo]

You can stamp your feet. That's fine and very Slade esque. Don't forget you can get take two ad free by heading to our Patreon page. Just search Kermit and Mayo Patreon and we'll pop right up like the meerkat kings of subscription based world class film podcasting.

[Mark Kermode]

And we have a special announcement regarding Christmas Spectacular. And this year it's not in that there. London.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, people of Bristol, we're going to be at the Bristol Beacon on December 6th. Tickets go on sale today, Thursday, July 2nd.

[Mark Kermode]

Because everyone is thinking of Mark's birthday.

[Simon Mayo]

It's Mark's birthday. Buy yourself a present. But the idea of buying things for Christmas before you've gone on summer holidays seems incredible. But obviously there are huge advantages and you can do it via the link in the show notes.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So if you're in Bristol Or Bath or Devizes or Castlecarry or Cardiff or

[Simon Mayo]

Stroud or Frome or Cirencester, Trowbridge, Cheltenham,

[Mark Kermode]

Glastonbury, Swindon, Newport, Gloucester, Cumbron, Western Super Mare, Tetbury.

[Simon Mayo]

All of which are an hour or less from Bristol. Then get your tickets now.

[Mark Kermode]

Green, Camel, Nailsworth, Clevedon, Chepstow, Tiddlywink, Gorsty Knoll, the Pluds, Cat Brain.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, thanks, we get it. You can stop now.

[Mark Kermode]

The Shoe, Nympnet, Throbwell, Bore Drip, Wookiee, Hole Balls, Green, Cockadilly, Tomtits, Bottom and Twatley.

[Simon Mayo]

So you can't say the team slacked off on the research this week. So yes, to recap, I think I

[Mark Kermode]

drew the short straw in that particular thing, don't you?

[Simon Mayo]

It's a Christmas special with me and him on Sunday, December 6th at the Bristol Beacon. Honestly, it's not even that far from London so London people you can come along to. It's not far from Cardiff or Birmingham or Lowestoft, Aberdeen or Belfast either.

[Mark Kermode]

So it's actually only a few miles drive from Cornwall as well. So ye just.

[Simon Mayo]

It's just up the road. So we'll see you up the way. Bristol. So here we go. We're doing some Christmas planning already. You can do your Christmas shopping on the Saturday and a little bit on Sunday morning, get a pastry and then come along and see us. All the details follow the link. Anyway, let's talk about a film that's out that we might want to see.

[Mark Kermode]

So Nirvana with two ends. The Band, the Show, the movie. Are you aware of any of this at all?

[Simon Mayo]

I haven't seen the film, no.

[Mark Kermode]

No, but you're not. Okay, so because this is basically the film adaptation of a TV series that was itself the spin off of a web series. So it's a Canadian comedy directed by Matt Johnson, written by Johnson and Jay McCarroll. Johnson Co wrote and directed BlackBerry from a couple of years ago for which McCarroll did the music. And as I said, it's based on this long running thing they've done. Nirvana the Band. And indeed, the film blends new footage shot for with old footage archived from the extensive back catalog. The film actually opens with what is apparently the very, very first scene of the series. I have to say I'm coming to most of this new because I didn't know this until after having seen the film and then going back and researching it so other people will know more. So it is an absurdist mockumentary or Spinal Tappy Rockumentary if you Will with an anarchic, self reflexive cinematic edge. Story focuses around Matt and Jay, who for a long time have played these fictionalized versions of themselves as wannabe pop stars trying to book a gig at a venue for which they have no real set, no real songs, no real plan, no manager, and apparently not a huge amount of talent. So the it is best described to me having not been familiar with the web series or the TV series as a kind of rough and ready jackass inflected sketch comedy Car Crash, in which Bill and Ted, now being played by Sacha Baron Cohen and Nathan Fielder, decide to accidentally remake Back to the Future by jumping off a tower and skydiving to stardom via a time traveling jaunt through a preview screening of the Hangover from a previous age. So it opens with a very Bill and Ted argument. You remember how there's the argument in Bill and Ted. It's right at the beginning of Bill and Ted in which one of them starts saying that Wild Stallions cannot make it big until they have a triumphant video. And in order for them to have a triumphant video, they have to have Eddie Van Halen on guitar. And then the other one says, well, we can't get Eddie Van Halen on guitar because we haven't got a triumphant video. So here are two middle aged heroes, Nirvana, the band, they're trying to get a gig at the Rivoli Club and one of them suddenly says, Matt says, I've got a plan. There's flyers. That's what you need, flyers. Flyers is the thing that you do. And then the other one says, yeah, but you have to have a gig before you can put up flyers. No, no, you put up flyers and that's how you get a gig. And then all this is captured on kind of handheld gorilla style handheld cameras. And there's a lot of fourth wall breaking because the people who are holding the cameras sometimes get brought into the drama. Then Matt the genius says, I've got it. I know what we have to do in order to become. In order to get the gig at the Rivoli, we have to go up the CN Tower and jump off it and skydive into the Sky Dome, which is a sports arena where the Blue Jays are going to be playing. And we can do that because you can go up the tower and then there's a walkway thing that you can do, but they strap you on and then we just cut the things and then we jump off and then we parachute down. So they now go to a hardware store in preparation for the Jump. I hope this is making more sense to you than it did to me. Here is a clip.

[Simon Mayo]

So we are going to be up on the CN Tower on the edgewalk where we're wearing the. I think they put a safety vest on you. And we need something that can like cut through the rope or the cable on it. Do you know what I mean?

[Mark Kermode]

You can, but here's the thing. You would shock yourself because if you cut through live wire, you will get that electricity.

[Simon Mayo]

But, oh, I'm not cutting through electricity. I'm not cutting through fabric, I'm not cutting through a live wire. What happens if we're not even allowed

[Ed Norton]

in the security with this?

[Mark Kermode]

You will be actually caught.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm going to say that I need these for. I'm sorry, drywall phone.

[Mark Kermode]

Drywall phone.

[Simon Mayo]

243. But I think that, you know what?

[Mark Kermode]

Like I, I don't know. Just be careful, man. Like, I seriously don't think it's worth it.

[Simon Mayo]

Right, okay.

[Mark Kermode]

But I, I mean, but you have the freedom to do this. I'm a libertarian. You have the liberty to do whatever the you want. Right, but that is, should I believe as a sane person I should prevent you guys from doing films. So there's that kind of thing about. Obviously that person doesn't know that they're involved in a dramatic sketch and they're saying, yeah, I don't think you should go up the top of a tower and throw yourself off it. I mean, obviously as a libertarian, I believe you have the right to do it, but I don't think so. And there's a lot of that kind of interacting with the public which seems to be real anyway. So when that stunt doesn't work, then they decide to build a DeLorean style time machine which is fueled by a long defunct novelty drink called Orbits, which apparently is a very funny joke if you're Canadian to go back in time in order to change history to get the gig at the Rivoli. And you know, one thing leads to another and turns out that the time machine does work and then they find themselves back in a previous incarnation of the world with potentially disastrous butterfly effect style consequences. So look, it is a very odd movie, particularly for me. If you hadn't seen the web series, you haven't seen the TV series, you had no idea what was going on at all. Because do you remember Trigger happy tv when there was the whole thing about you remember that? And I thought, I mean, I enjoyed bits of trigger happy happy TV very, very much. I did always think Dom Jolly. Hello, Dom. Jolly, who's a listener. And the stuff with the. With the animals beating each other, you know, people dressed as animals having comedy fights in parks, I always thought was absolutely hilarious. I never knew quite why I found it so hilarious, but I thought it was. So at first, I have to admit, I just couldn't quite make out what was going on. And when they do the CN Tower bit, I mean, for a start, one thing is I'm terrified of heights. So there's a whole thing in my point of view going on which is I'm terrified of heights. The second thing is the way in which they're trying to get into the tower, getting through security whilst apparently smuggling parachutes under their clothes. And you think if this can't be real, the security can't actually be letting them through with clearly parachute smuggle. So there's a certain amount for me at the beginning of what on earth is going on, followed by a I really, really don't like heights. And then all the way through there are these kind of actually rather well done sleight of hand deceptions between what's real and what's staged. And there's a whole thing in which, you know, with Back to the Future, they're kind of riffing on Back to the Future and the lightning strike and stuff that has to be done. And you're looking at it going, sorry, how much of this. Do the people around know what's going on? How much of this are the people in on the joke? How much of this is the joke that they're not in on the joke? You know, because at one point it looks like they're organizing a terrorist operation. And then everyone is sort of just looking at them like something weird but just a bit odd is going on. And then the lines between fiction and reality are further blurred by the fact that apparently some of the stuff from later on in the movie there is news footage that is actually news footage that is repurposed from something else that was going on. So what to make of the result?

[Simon Mayo]

So, as someone that does sound like quite hard work.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, here's an interesting thing, and I'm sure that part of this is an age thing. Okay? So from a filmmaking point of view, it is, I have to say, a kind of a really seamless mix of the. Of the. Of the artifice and the reportage to the point that I was genuinely confused about what was going on. Plus, it has a. It has a spectacular set piece in it at the beginning that really gave me the collywobbles in a way that was like, whoa. You know, I'm genuinely unsettled by this. However, from a. From a. For people who are familiar with the series, you know, all this is fine. This is par for the course. This is just like, okay, it's a movie, it's gone bigger, and therefore, you know, the stunts are greater. But the central thing is the relationship between these two central characters, which is kind of the heart of it. I have to say, I personally found myself too distracted by the. Sorry, what. What's the status of this? What's going on? To actually enjoy the comedy. And it's. It's a really weird thing to say. And I know I say quite often I've got a teeny ear for comedy, but I also think that what I've got an anxiety about is. Sorry, hang on, What, What, What. What is. Where are we. Are they involved in it? Are they not involved in it? Do they know what's going on? Do they not know what's going on? And so from a filmmaking point of view, I mean, it is really audacious and it's. And I know I have a couple of younger friends who were very familiar with the series and very familiar with the TV show who just thought this was the funniest thing they'd seen. And incredibly audacious, which it is. I felt a little bit, as you seem to be feeling from my description, which is. It's slightly hard work. I mean, I'm of the generation. I love Bill and Ted, and they clearly love Bill and Ted, but I kind of found myself tolerating Matt and Jay as opposed to loving them. And I think that the thing is, if you're already invested in the characters, if you're already familiar with the format, if you're already on board, I think you think, okay, well, this is terrific. It's doing all the stuff that we want it to do. If, like me, you're going in stone cold because you're a person who's just turned 63. Thanks very much. I found it harder to enjoy than I would have done. And the other thing is, I found their characters really great. I love Bill and Ted. I absolutely love Bill and Ted. And I would quite happily spend a week in the company of Bill and Ted. After a couple of hours in the company of Matt and Jay, I thought, okay, that's well done, and I'm going to go and stand over here now.

[Simon Mayo]

So they. But they pronounce it Nirvana all the way through, even though it's written Nirvana for obvious reasons.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's. And there's a. That apparently is the kind of the longest standing of the jokes is the confusion about Nirvana the band. The. Yes, exactly. I never really got to the bottom of that. But then to be honest with you, I. I'm not sure that I needed to. I mean, it's.

[Simon Mayo]

Presumably it's copyright. Because if you say Nirvana the band, the show, the movie, and it hasn't got Nirvana in it, then you're in trouble.

[Mark Kermode]

No, but they're not. They are. They. They're saying Nirvana. If. I mean, honestly, to be honest with you, now that you're bringing it up, it never even occurred to me that there was a pronunciation thing. But it is N I, R, V A, N, N A the band. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Which I would say Nevada. But anyway, there you go.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so it is for something then you say Indiana.

[Simon Mayo]

Absolutely. Indiana wants me. That's, that's, that's. I mean, that's the way most people, I think, say it, if they actually come from.

[Mark Kermode]

Except in the song, it's Indiana wants me.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. What a strange song that was.

[Mark Kermode]

What a strange song that was.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so we're gonna take some ads and after the break, minions and monsters. And also the invite, our special guests will be Ed Norton and Olivia Wilde.

[Mark Kermode]

Blimey.

[Simon Mayo]

In just a moment. Yeah. Mark, you remember that top secret business idea I had last year?

[Mark Kermode]

What, you mean credit flicks? The streaming service that only shows end credits? I've told you before.

[Simon Mayo]

No, no, it's not that. Anyway, I'm not telling you now. People are listening. Suffice to say, I'm ready to go to the market.

[Mark Kermode]

In that case, you're going to need Shopify. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to bring it to life. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one.

[Simon Mayo]

Go on.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, it's simple for both you and the customer. From the moment your first one is ready to pay, Shopify checkout helps more of them finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, that would be a weight off my mind. I could focus on growing the business. I could be ready to float on the stock market in a couple of years.

[Mark Kermode]

That's the spirit. Because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it.

[Simon Mayo]

With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk/take start

[Mark Kermode]

your free trial at shopify dot co dot uk take.

[Molly Sims]

Hey, guys. This is Molly Sims, host of Lipstick on the Rim. So I have a little bit of a pet peeve that I think you're going to relate to this. I'll be having a great day, feeling good, and someone will say to me, you look tired. And I'm like, I promise you I'm not really tired. But here's what I've learned. My eyelids, they do sit a little low. And once my doctor explained that to me, it actually kind of made a lot of sense. She prescribed me Upnique, the first and only FDA approved prescription eye drop for adults with low lying eyelids. One drop per eye in the morning and I noticed my eyes look more open. Awake within minutes. And it's like just one simple step. That's it. And the results, Guess what? They last up to eight hours. Learn more about Upneek. That's u p n e e q.com or talk to your doctor. Just a little quick safety note about Upneek. Oxymetazoline hydrochloride ophthalmic solution, 0.1%. Tell your doctor your symptoms and medical history, including blood pressure, blood flow, issues in heart, brain or eye disease. Drooping eyelids can be caused by other more serious conditions, such as a stroke. Do not touch the tip of the Upneek vial to your eye or any other surface. This is not a complete list of risks.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, here we go with the box office top 10. At number 10, a private life, which

[Mark Kermode]

I enjoyed, and it's La vie prevey Jodie Foster. Like I said, it's. It's. It's an odd movie. It has been referred to by some critics as Hitchcocking, although I think that is kind of just. That's just a word that they fall back on. But I enjoyed it and it does demonstrate that Jodie Foster can be brilliant in more than one language, which of course is no surprise to anybody.

[Simon Mayo]

Dockler UK on our YouTube channel, which this week passed 100 million views, by the way.

[Mark Kermode]

100 million.

[Simon Mayo]

I saw the film last December in France and found it entertaining, although I felt the plot was rather thin. I also seem to remember the ending feeling a little abrupt. Jodie Foster, who could do no wrong, whether performing in English or French, and Daniel Otoy are both superb. Their chemistry is exceptional and I'd love to see them share the screen again very soon. Very good. So that's private life at 10. Number nine is Michael. It's still in the 10 in America,

[Mark Kermode]

it's 1252 million so far taken here, which is just astonishing. I mean a perfectly well made one. Half of the story. Where's the rest of it?

[Simon Mayo]

Backrooms is at number eight and number six in America.

[Mark Kermode]

So fifth week in the charts. Done very well. I thought it was creepy and interesting. We'd had some very, very good emails about the way in which people are interpreting it, which just I think go to show that interesting films bear numerous interpretations. Whatever you want to bring to it, it will, it will, you know, it

[Simon Mayo]

will support number seven here, number eight over there, Bleach, Thousand Year Blood War, the Calamity. There's a colon after bleach, a hyphen after thousand and a hyphen after war. Lots of punctuation.

[Mark Kermode]

So this wasn't press screened. This is a spinoff of the manga series. It's apparently the plot synopsis says Ichigo and allies must reclaim the fallen palace to stop total ruin as the Thousand Year Blood War peaks. Haven't seen it. If you have, let us know.

[Simon Mayo]

Number six is Scary movie

[Mark Kermode]

and moving on.

[Simon Mayo]

Number five is Obsession, which is terrific.

[Mark Kermode]

This is the seventh week in the charts. Obsession cost absolutely Nothing. It's taken 16 million. It's really interesting. It's got great horror performances, like all the best horror movies. It's really about something. And again, we've had numerous interpretations of what it's about and I think it's. I think it's really exciting. I think it's really, really exciting that this and Backrooms are both in the top 10 in which they're holding their own against very expensive movies.

[Simon Mayo]

Number four here and there. Excuse me, Chris Walker, aged 45, long term listener, first time emailer. I'm a huge fan of you both, but an even bigger fan of Jackass, which puts us right down again. Having been watching them for most of my adult life, I'm fairly certain that come the closing credits, I'm off to see it on Tuesday. I'll be welling up. It's precisely the shameless and unadulterated affection and love for their friends that has made Jackass a hit for 25 years or more. Shameful as some of their behavior undoubtedly is, in a world where men still struggle to open up emotionally, their genuine love and loyalty should be applauded. I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea, but sometimes the derision aimed at them seems a little condescending and haughty. Anyway, love you both, Chris Walker.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, might I say I did not aim any condescending or haughty derision against the film. I actually said, of all of them, it was my favorite. And the thing that I was surprised by is how much it was in the end about male friendship. And the. The analogy that I used was that if Project Hail Mary asks, can men be friends? And the answer is yes, but only if the future of humanity is at stake. Jackass asks, can men be friends? And the answer is yes, but only if they can insert toy cars where the sun don't shine. A funny thing happened with this, which was that the good lady professor, her indoors listened to the show whilst driving between Cornwall and somewhere else. And she came back in and she was chuckling and I said, what are you chuckling about? She said, simon Mayer does this thing, which really makes me laugh. He's like, okay, what is that? She said, in the middle of your Jackass review. You described the film and there was a pause and Simon Mayer went, oh dear. She said, when he does that, it's very, very funny.

[Simon Mayo]

I didn't know it was something. I didn't know it was a thing that I did.

[Mark Kermode]

Apparently it's a thing that you do. And it's a thing that makes the good lady professor, her indoors laugh very much. Because I said, and then they do this and then they do that and then they insert this there and then they put that with the sudden. There was a brief pause and you went, oh dear.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I'm. I still think, you know, I'm on air, you know, because there are other reactions which would be, okay, okay, there we go. So Jack has number four. Number three is disclosure day. Here's an email from Mr. Jocelyn Evans. Okay, okay. And I was thinking I hadn't come across a bloke called Jocelyn, so I just looked it up. It was a rich. Jocelyn is originally a male name from an old Germanic word meaning member of the goths.

[Mark Kermode]

Of the Goths.

[Simon Mayo]

Of the goths. So Jocelyn is a Goth, Basically.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Ed Norton]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

Dear Hansel and Gretel, Having dropped child number one, a college taster day in Manchester and having a few hours free, I decided to take in a surprisingly well attended morning showing of disclosure day. I'm not sure which I found weirder as a 54 year old man rummaging around in his backpack for a packet of fruit gums to revive me after the umpteenth wearying chase scene, only to hear Colin Firth gently calling my name from the screen. I think he was about to chide me for eating sweets before lunchtime. But then he got distracted by his dead wife. So I ate the fruit gums anyway. Also that an alien in civilization with the USP empathy a superpower, collectively settled on dressing up as the cast of Bambi to abduct and operate on frightened children in their spaceship disguised as the original if gingerbready cabin in the woods. Given their main procedure appeared to be some type of retinal scan, might I suggest future empathetic incursions? Consider infiltrating a bunch of spec savers for the afternoon. And listen, don't then keep turning up for years afterwards gawping through the windows at your victims. Anyway, keep up the good work. Down with something or other. I think it was orange, but my memory's gone blank after a staring contest with a squirrel. Mr. Jocelyn Evans. BA, PhD. Also Dr. That causes confusion. Used to be a professor. Yes, I did that too. But now Level 2 England Athletics official Jocelyn sounds though he's had a wild and crazy life.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, either that or. Or he's a complete fantasist. Appears to have lived several lifetimes. That's astonishing. All those things. Yeah, I feel like I've. I haven't done enough.

[Simon Mayo]

There's nothing wrong with eating sweets before lunchtime, I think, if needed, because sometimes you need a sugar rush. And fruit gum's very good. Fruit pastels, also jelly tots, that kind of thing. You should always have them handy. So, disclosure date number three. Anything else to say there? We've got more in overflow car park.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, there's more in the overflow car park. And I think. Let's save further discussion for then. I think it's great that we're getting so much mail about this closure day. I think that's really exciting.

[Simon Mayo]

Number two is Supergirl.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so as we said last week, the Supergirl press screening was Tuesday evening. The way that national press shows work is that films that open on Friday get screened for the critics on the daytime of Monday and Tuesday. If they feel that they don't screen something until as late as possible, it's usually two things. Either because it's a massive event movie, like no Time to Die, or, you know, something like that, and they're trying to kind of keep everything secret until the last possible moment, or it's because they don't have a lot of faith in it. Now, I have no idea what the thinking was with Warners for not screening Supergirl. I mean, did say to them, look, you know, there should be a national press show. And they said, yeah, but there isn't. This is the only one. However, I Have. I'm now looking at the Variety headline which says Supergirl braces for $100 million loss. What DC Studios from should learn from its box office bomb. So that's. It's number two, obviously, but it has underperformed. Anyway, latest DC offering, part apparently of DCU's Chapter 1 Gods and Monsters series. I say that as if it means anything to me. It doesn't. Directed by Craig Gillespie, written and Negrer starring Millie Alcock as Supergirl, which is a role that we previously saw her showcase in last year's Superman. If you remember, I reviewed that. I mean, it's funny. Despite the fact it was only last year, I have very little memory of watching that film. But I did. I asked the Internet what I thought of it and apparently I said it was a resolutely good natured throwback, which is fine. So it is. I'm going to do a brief review now since I didn't get to do it last week. It is Karazor El's 23rd birthday. She has been on a sort of planet hopping pub crawl as far as we can tell. Her cousin Superman wants her to spend more time on Earth, but she is clearly on the run from her responsibilities. Here's a clip from the trailer. Hey, I was just touching base to

[Simon Mayo]

see when you think you might be coming back. You know, I'm just worried that you're

[Mark Kermode]

not going to find your stride here if you keep going off world all the time. Carl Mori generation can find your people. Yeah, well, that's the thing, Clark.

[Olivia Wilde]

I have no people.

[Mark Kermode]

I miss wherever you are, buddy. Krypto and I at least had each other.

[Molly Sims]

Honestly, I thought we were lucky.

[Mark Kermode]

Luck almost by definition runs out. So kind of mumblecore superheroes with pop music, so. And then Matthias Skonut's evil and evilly accented Krem of the Yellow Hills poisons Krypto. And then she has to go on a mission to find him and get the antidote to save Krypto. So it's basically John Wick in as much as it's all about the dog. And it's also a bit Hancock. Do you remember Hancock? The film in which. I do. Will Smith was sort of the, you know, was a superhero, but was now a derelict and, you know, just wanted to drop out. Anyway, along for the ride is Ruthie by Eve Ridley, whose family Crem has killed, but who Kara wants to save from falling prey to vengeance. So I went to see it at Eastleigh just yesterday or. Yeah, yesterday. Well, day before yesterday, if you're listening to this on Thursday, I thought, I mean it was a, it was a weekday screening at 6 o'.

[Simon Mayo]

Clock.

[Mark Kermode]

There was about 17 or 18 people in the audience. It's a weirdly over cluttered mishmash of plot and design ideas. I mean it's sort of. The design is like the dystopia of, of Blade Runner and Mad Max but very, very messy. And then take all of that and then throw it into the Mars EISD cantina because essentially it's a sort of Star Wars, Star wars creatures from around the galaxy and then just shaking all those things up and seeing if, if any of them catch fire. I mean the narrative and the plot are all over the place. None of the individual set pieces connect with any of the other individual set pieces. It, I mean like, like the sets, the whole thing feels really, really over cluttered and underpowered. Jason Momoa seems to be having fun. I wish I was having as much fun as he was. The directing and the editing are really drearily frenetic and it's kind of that weird thing as if the film is desperately trying to seem exciting by just jumping around all over the place whilst actually being kind of very, very, very staid. There are endless needle drops. There's a bit in which there's a wet leg needle drop and I actually really like wet leg and I love catch these fists. But it just seemed very self conscious. None of it was organic. And one of the things it reminded me of, I mean people forget this. Do you remember seeing the original Twilight? I do. The original Twilight had really, really good needle drops that actually kind of made you think this is a film with a genuine teen sensibility. And this just didn't ever feel like that. The other, the other thing that bothered me about it, and this is very much old man shouts at clouds. It's a 12A certificate movie and it is 12A for partly moderate use of bad language. Okay, the, the, the word that isn't quite shoot that I still consider to be, to be a cuss word. And we don't use it on the show. But apparently in 12A now there is no longer any restriction on, on, on shooting. And it's just everywhere. I mean it's just constant, constant, constant stuff happens and then someone just goes shoot. And then something happens and they go shoot. And then something else happens shoot. And then something else happens and somebody goes shoot. And you go for heaven's sake. I mean this is like you've just got shift, alt, insert, shoot. Every other. And I mean, one point I started counting and then I just gave up. And then I realized I'm actually counting the number of times that you use this word. That means that the film really isn't working for me. The. The BBFC guidance says moderate use of bad language. Mild. Actually, no. Actually, I can't even read those words out. It's. Yes, no, I can't. A moderate use of bad language. You look it up. I can't read any of those on the show. As for Billy Alcock, I thought she was actually pretty good. And I wish that she had a better film to be good in, because I thought at the center of it, there's an interesting idea, which is Supergirl. The way that she plays Supergirl as this sort of dissolute character who's separated from everything and disenfranchised from everything and doesn't really want to engage with anything other than her dog, and then finding out that she doesn't. There is something in there, but the rest of the movie is just. It's like somebody just overturned a dustbin of ideas onto the screen and went, there you sorted out. And it doesn't surprise me, therefore, that it hasn't done well. Moreover, it doesn't surprise me that they didn't want to screen it earlier than they did, because I have the suspicion that they didn't want to screen it because it's all very well to do. First responses to Supergirl are great. People who went to the premiere came out saying things like, I enjoyed it. Yeah, that's always the case. We all know that. The first response is things are not good. And it's not good on the emails here.

[Simon Mayo]

Susan, in reading the movie, felt like a mixture of True Grit, the Princess Bride and Star wars, which made for a fun adventure.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Kara's backstory was done really well. The fight scenes were exciting and the dog was absolutely adorable. The fight scene was Jason Momoa.

[Mark Kermode]

Sorry, just pause one second. The fight scenes I found were not exciting because the CG was really shonky. Sorry, carry on.

[Simon Mayo]

And the dog was absolutely adorable. Jason Momoa was perfect in his role. You could tell he was enjoying every moment he was on screen. I also really enjoyed Kara's character arc. The ending sets up what looks like she will be teaming up with Superman and joining the fight with the next big villain. Overall, I had a great time and can't wait to see where the story goes next.

[Mark Kermode]

Great. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I am genuinely glad you enjoyed it.

[Simon Mayo]

I wish that Brian Brian Roberts in Chessington Going to the cinema with my younger daughter is quite a teary time as we're both in the habit of crying during film, which led to people asking us whether we were okay because we looked so upset when exiting the cinema after watching. If I imagine this is the John Krasinski if from 2024 less about the 6 laugh test and more about the 3 cry test. Most of the time, very good on that basis. There were times of cinema There were times of cinema induced lacrimosity during Supergirl, mainly because of the multiple times of trauma informed decisions in Kara's past as well as with her companions. And whilst it wasn't as good as Superman, I found the time watching watching Kara's story to be heartwarming and emotional and well worth the effort of getting out to the cinema. I don't know the background of the production and whether there was any trouble in terms of rewrites or reshoots, but we both very much enjoyed the product. Keep safe and cool and down with the bad and up with the good. Okay? Edin Romsey I went into Supergirl cautiously optimistic after quite liking James Gunn Superman last year and also wanting to support it after the predictable online backlash to Millie Alcox casting, who has apparently committed the unforgivable sin of not being Sid Sweeney. I came out headachy and irritated. It feels like Craig Gillespie trying to make a gun style film without quite pulling it off. There are colorful characters and decent performances. Allcock and Jason Momoa both good, but they never really land. The visuals are oddly muddy, the villain forgettable, and the jukebox soundtrack lacks guns knack for the perfect needle drop. This was my first cinema trip in a while as I've been home post op with my dog. So thanks to Simon for the does the dog die? Tip. For gamers there's a lovely equivalent can you pet the dog? Apparently that's in inverted commas. Down with all of that and up with all of the other. Anyway, love the show Steve Ed in Romsey for Supergirl.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I mean I'm I'm very much. I'm very much on the same page as Ed from Romsey. However, I am pleased to hear the two previous emailers had gone and enjoyed it in that when in the screening that I was in in Eastleigh there was a line of people just immediately ahead of me pretty much half, half boys, half girls, little about 14, 15, sort of, you know, slightly gothy looking and as they came out they seemed to have thought it was all right. One of them was pointing out that it was exactly the same story as something else and they were having a kind of, you know, debate. But. But there was. They didn't seem to have hated it, but they didn't seem to have loved it either. At least that was to my eye, that's what it looked like.

[Simon Mayo]

That's it. Number two. Toy Story 5 is number one here and number one in America as well. Nick Reed from Massam. Long term listener, occasional emailer, proud sneaker of a hello to Jason Isaacs onto Only Connect after hearing Mark's review, we went to Toy Story mainly for completism and a bit of shade. Okay, because that was a very good reason for going to the cinema.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

In the recent Heat Wave. But leaving a sold out screening full of laughing, misty eyed families, we both said, what film did Mark see? There's plenty of plot, but it all comes together neatly. The army of buzzes, the gadgets, Jesse's abandonment issues, Woody with Bo Peep and Duke Caboom's return. It's also refreshing to have a Toy Story centered on female characters without being didactic tactics. John Cusack is a standout in a top form cast and Bullseye is a perfect sidekick. Sorry, Joan Cusack, obviously. Yeah, the magic is absolutely still there alongside Pixar's usual care and technical brilliance, especially the gorgeous, funny pastel imagination sequences. We laughed and cried one moment, hitting at least an 8 on the Toy Story 3 parents sobbing scale. The message is that children's challenges are timeless, even if the toys change. Not as good as Toy Story 3. Few things are superior Pixar. I'd happily watch just one more and another after that tickety tonk down with bullies, cyber and otherwise from Nick Reed.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well again, I'm really glad that you enjoyed it and I'm really glad that you got that out of it. And I'm sort of jealous that I didn't. It is worth saying once again that all criticism is subjective and surprisingly enough, even though I didn't like Toy Story 5 at all, I think the fact that it's filling cinemas out and people are going to see it and having positive responses to it is a positive thing. I don't like the movie. I think it felt very artificial and lacking in the moments that you found in it. But that's as much to do with what I really need from Toy Story because Toy Story has been a big part of my life and it's been a big part of Simon and Mai's relationship on air and so maybe I just went, maybe I just have higher expectations for it. And also, it is possible that if you go and see a film after you've heard bad things about it, it's easier to see the good things in it. This is why people always say, oh, you know, you ruined the movie for me by, you know, by you didn't, you didn't say this. But other people say you ruined the movie before me by being down on it. Weirdly enough, sometimes going in having been told that something isn't any good. I mean, I went to see Supergirl really hoping that it was going to be really good because I'd heard slightly sniffy things about it and then I was disappointed.

[Simon Mayo]

So [e-mail] if you've seen any of those or just want to get in touch with the program. There'll be more discussion on current films including Supergirl and Jackass and Toy Story 5 in the overflow car park intake 2. Available via Patreon. Special guests Ed Norton and Olivia Wilde in just a moment. Right now, get up to 15% off select storage solutions put heavy duty HDX totes to good use, protecting what's important to you. The solid impact resistant design prevents cracking and the clear base and sides make items easy to find even when the totes are stacked. Find select shelving and tote storage up to 15% off at the Home Depot. To organize Organize every room in your home from your garage to your attic. Visit homedepot.com how doers get more done.

[Mark Kermode]

This summer Serve up the Cookout Classics

[Olivia Wilde]

Craft Mayo and dressing.

[Mark Kermode]

Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian.

[Olivia Wilde]

Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo.

[Mark Kermode]

We all know it's not a cookout without cracking craft.

[Simon Mayo]

So our guests this week are Edward Norton and Olivia Wilde. Olivia, as you know, actor, director, producer, screen work includes House, Tron, Legacy and Book Smart, of course, the acclaimed coming of age comedy that marked her directorial debut. Ed Norton. Wow. What's to say? Three time Oscar nominee, known for Primal Fear, American History X, although I still try and forget that. And of course famously Fight Club and one of the most consistently acclaimed actors of his generation. You can hear our conversation with them after this clip from the Invite.

[Molly Sims]

Hi.

[Olivia Wilde]

Hi.

[Molly Sims]

Come in.

[Mark Kermode]

Nice to see you.

[Olivia Wilde]

We are so happy you're here.

[Mark Kermode]

Are we expecting people? Can we put curtains on this window? I don't like how they can see into our apartment. This shirt, it's nice. It looks. Looks really good on you.

[Olivia Wilde]

Well, you could tell me that once in a while.

[Ed Norton]

Take them Off.

[Mark Kermode]

I don't give a. If you take your shoes off

[Simon Mayo]

for me.

[Mark Kermode]

No gluten, no dairy, no meat, no sugar.

[Olivia Wilde]

Oh, no.

[Mark Kermode]

There's something I've been wanting to talk to you about.

[Simon Mayo]

We also have something we wanted to

[Olivia Wilde]

talk to you about.

[Simon Mayo]

That is a clip from the Invite, I'm delighted to say. Been joined by two of its stars, Ed Norton and Olivia Wilder, who also directs the movie Olivier and. Hello. How are you?

[Olivia Wilde]

Great, thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

So thank you very much indeed for your time. I really appreciate it. Olivia, you're the director of the movie as well, as well as one of its stars. Introduce us to the invite. What do we need to know?

[Olivia Wilde]

Sure. Okay. The Invite is a comedy. A dark comedy, maybe. Ish. Darkish?

[Ed Norton]

No, funny.

[Olivia Wilde]

A funny comedy about a dinner party gone terribly wrong or terribly right, depending on your perspective. And it's about a couple, Joe and Angela, played by Seth Rogen and myself, who are hosting our Upstairs Neighbors, played by Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. And it is a social experience fraught with a large amount of tension and conflict and hilarity, we hope.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. And what kind of. Explain who Angela is? What kind of a person is she?

[Olivia Wilde]

Angela is a very tightly wound spring. She is someone who is. Has put so much significance on this one evening during which the movie takes place, that it is sort of existentially necessary for her to pull this night off in order to, in her mind, impress. Yeah, Stay alive. Really, she needs to impress them in order to stay alive. She's desperate to feel that she and her husband Joe can have one normal night, that they could potentially make friends and be normal. And it seems impossible for them.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so, Ed, you're part of the raunchy couple upstairs. Introduce us to Hawk. What kind of a guy is he?

[Ed Norton]

He's a bit of an enigma, I think. He seems. I don't want to give too much away. I think that. I think that you. I think by design. You don't really know what this couple from upstairs is after. I think he's someone who. Presents one way and who we're gonna learn a lot about as the course of the evening goes on. In ways.

[Simon Mayo]

That's a very enigmatic answer.

[Ed Norton]

Yes, well. Well, there are. You know, there are a lot of the. A lot of the pleasures of this film are the unexpected twists in what you learn about the collision of these two couples. And I think that's the ride, you know? Yeah, I do think the less you know, the better. I think. This isn't a film full of what I would call Trickery.

[Olivia Wilde]

It's.

[Ed Norton]

It's a lot of it. There's a lot of humanity in it. And I think the pleasures of it for people are. Are actually seeing themselves, seeing their own foibles and their own, you know, aspirations and Unsaid. Unsaid. Inner lives unspoken. Inner lives reflected and revealed.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Sin Said is being slightly enigmatic. May I say two things? Firstly, I think it absolutely is a dark comedy. I mean, it is funny, but it is absolutely very, very dark. Second thing is obviously this.

[Simon Mayo]

It's.

[Mark Kermode]

It's based on a film which itself was adapted from a play, a Spanish film. A Spanish play. People upstairs. How close, if at all, is this to the source material?

[Olivia Wilde]

It's very different from the source material. But I think at its core, what it maintains is the question, can two people who have been together for a long time still maintain a sense of. Of intimacy? And that can be interpreted in several different ways. And how do people. How do people survive within relationship? You know, that is something that I think is.

[Ed Norton]

Yeah. And if they've lost something, can it be recovered?

[Olivia Wilde]

Can it be recovered? But we approach it in a very different way than the original. And it is also something that's been adapted into other languages and other cultures. But this version is very specific to this group of actors interpretation of that question about relationships. But it is very different.

[Mark Kermode]

And the dedication to Diane Keaton, I mean, it seemed to me that this was a film from, in my experience, a different era. There was a period that I remember in which it was possible to make adult comedies, comedies dealing with grown up themes which were quite complex, often French movies dealing with bourgeois anxiety. And that was funny. And this does seem to be of that generation of filmmaking.

[Olivia Wilde]

Yes, that was the intention. And we all grew up being so inspired by those movies and the experience of watching them in theaters. And so that's what we wanted to create for people. Absolutely.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm looking at the picture of you guys in the hotel and you seem to be as color coordinated as you are in the movie.

[Olivia Wilde]

This is accidentally.

[Ed Norton]

We were just joking about that. We both make. We both made a monochromatic bet and Olivia won.

[Olivia Wilde]

I don't know how I did this so perfectly, accidentally, but I am blending in with the ribbon.

[Ed Norton]

Can you even see her pants? Can you even see her second blends

[Olivia Wilde]

in with the walls of the house. And I blend the curtains, the tiles,

[Simon Mayo]

the light stand behind you, the chairs that you're sitting on. It all works perfectly. And the reason I mention that is that there is a scene that.

[Mark Kermode]

That.

[Simon Mayo]

That you guys have together, where clearly a lot of work has gone into the design of this apartment, which is. Which looks amazing. And you've got three different types of blue on the wall. Okay. And, Ed, because your character is in tune with this kind of thing, is fascinated by the interior decor. And Olivia, your character, saying, but you know which one. And. And then I'm thinking to myself, but they all look the same. And that's exactly what. Seth Roge, you say, that's what my husband thinks.

[Mark Kermode]

They all look the same.

[Simon Mayo]

So I felt very seen at that moment.

[Olivia Wilde]

Oh, good. Yes. I, too, felt seen, because that was based on a conversation with our brilliant production designer, Jade Healy, who was asking me to choose the color for the apartment of the set and kept following me around with these three paint swatches. And I said, but, Jade, they're all the same color. And she's like, oh, no, you must be colorblind. And so we put that in the film. But I think the fact that Hawke and Angela bond over that really says everything, because he understands how different those shades are. And that was one of my favorite scenes in the film.

[Simon Mayo]

Can I do a shout out also for your sound team?

[Olivia Wilde]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Because there is a lot of overlapping dialogue in this film.

[Ed Norton]

Well observed. Well observed.

[Simon Mayo]

Where you're all talking at the same time, and yet we can hear what everybody is saying. Whoever it was is incredible.

[Olivia Wilde]

Steve Morrow, he is the best. And that was my dream, was to be able to have everyone overlap. I said, can we try for a Robert Altman effect where people can just speak over each other? No one will ever be asked to hold a line in order for another person to speak. And he said, absolutely. Have at it. And then just really involves a very difficult process of live mixing and holding each person's mic in a way that allows them to be isolated. And I never had any trouble in post with all of that. And I just. I'm so lucky that we had Steve on board.

[Simon Mayo]

And is that where the. Where your rehearsal period actually worked a lot? Cause it feels as though you're improvising. Is that true, Ed?

[Ed Norton]

I would say there was probably more improvisation in this film than any I've done in. Out of 50 films I've done. I think I've never been involved in anything that. Where the director said, these are the basic. These are the basic foundational things that probably need to happen in the scene, but let's just go riff it. Olivia and I walking through the apartment, taking the tour, and the paint swatches is an emblematic example, because we Most. I don't think any of that was scripted really. And definitely has one of my favorite lines of Olivia's in the whole film, like seeking renovation without change. And I think so, yes. Lots and lots of improvisation. I think Seth is one of the funniest one liner machines that any of us know.

[Simon Mayo]

And.

[Ed Norton]

And Penelope is a brilliant. She'll get immersed in a thing and come out with stuff like smoking the joint and saying I can't or I'll start counting things. It was great fun in that sense. But then I think there was another layer that was interesting, which was Olivia kind of. She asked each of us to hold on to having a. Of almost like secrets that we could bring out on each other. So quasi scripted, but only by each of us. But we were allowed to bring them into the scene and get authentic reactions off of each other. The thing I would kind of say overall is that Olivia created for the four of us a very singular experience in the sense of a space in which we could operate, in which there was nothing wrong that we could do. She was prepared with her team to capture very beautifully anything that happened within the space. So we had this enormous physical liberation within the space, which is unusual. And then I think an incredible. Not just allowance for, but enthusiasm for discovery and uncertainty about where things were going, which is anathema to most directors. I think most people want to exert control, to shape and sculpt in the course of actually performing. And Olivia did the opposite. She really. She almost, you know, she did things that almost, I think, felt reckless to me in the sense of saying, I don't actually know where this movie's going to end. I don't know what the final scene of the movie is going to be. And we won't know until a couple weeks in to shooting, which there were people around the perimeter having heart attacks. But she didn't. She remained very cool.

[Simon Mayo]

Would you say, Ted and Olivia, this is to both of you. If anyone says to you, would you like a tour of the apartment? You should always say no.

[Olivia Wilde]

Oh, no, I think you say yes.

[Ed Norton]

No, it.

[Olivia Wilde]

You should always say yes. Absolutely.

[Ed Norton]

I love a tour of an apartment.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, Ed and Olivia, thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Also thank you for putting a big title sequence at the beginning of a movie the way it felt entirely appropriate. And Ed, also, the last time you were on was to talk about motherless Brooklyn. And the music from that movie is still. When. Whenever I'm feeling exhausted, I listen to daily battles, both the Tom York version and the Winter Masalis version and I feel better.

[Ed Norton]

So thank you so much.

[Molly Sims]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you for your time, Olivia. Thank you for your time, Ed. Thank you. Ed Norton and Olivia Wilde, who star in this movie was Seth Rogen, Penelope Cruz. I realized that I had mentioned Penelope Cruz properly when we were doing the questions. So this is a, this is a fascinating film. It's like you were saying, Mark, if it feels very old on the one hand, it feels very progressive because this is certainly, whether it's dark comedy or not, it's an adult comedy.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

This is not a date movie I would suggest, but it does. It's, it's a four hander. It's an old fashioned stage play turned

[Mark Kermode]

into a, it is so just a bit of sort of nuts and bolts background. So it is technically it's an adaptation of a 2020 Spanish comedy, people Upstairs by Just Gay. The original is about a bickering couple who invite the couple upstairs for dinner, having heard them having very loud fun times. And that film began life as a stage play, which makes sense because a four hander taking place in an apartment. Of course it makes sense. That comes from, from a stage play. So this is adapted by Willma Cormac and rushed to Jones of the screenwriters. The project was originally developed in 2021 for Jonathan Dayton, Valerie Farris, who are the people that made Little Miss Sunshine and Battle of the Sexes. Now you remember that you and I very much like Battle of the Sexes. And at that point it was going to start Amy Adams, Paul Rudd and Tessa Thompson. That production stalled. Then it was relaunched with Olivia Wilde directing and co starring with Ed Norton. Penelope Cruz just said Seth Rogen, of course, Seth Rogen, Olivia Wilde worked together before. There's that episode of the studio, remember the episode of the Studio in which she's the, she's the runaway director who steals the can of film from her own movie because she wants, she wants to get the scene reshot. So as was probably apparent, it was funny when you, when Ed Norton said he didn't want to say anything about the, you know, about what the plot's about. Well, you have to have a certain amount. I mean, essentially we meet Angela, who is Olivia's character in her apartment awaiting the arrival of Joe, played by Seth Rogen, who is now this worker schlub with a bad back back who seems to hate his life, hates his bike, hates his lot. He used to be in a band who had a hit at some point. Now he's a disillusioned drone who won't even Go anywhere near his keyboard and they've got this scratchy relationship. She tells him to take his shoes off. He complains that she does nothing but buy rugs and redecorate the apartment all the time. She berates him for not remembering the fact that the people upstairs are coming down to see the apartment, to see all the renovations they've been doing for all this time. And he snaps back that she never told him that they were coming. And then she says, well, I did tell you and you've forgotten to bring the wine. And then he tells her that if, okay, if they are going to come, I'm going to have the conversation with her about, with them about all the noise that they make up. So she says, please don't do that. And they're in the middle of the argument when the doorbell rings. Bing bong. And there are Hawk, played by Ed Norton, and Peter, played by Penelope Cruz. And they seem very nice, if a bit touchy feely. And he compliments her decor decisions, the rug, the interior design. You were mentioning the thing about the, you know, the three shades of blue, blue. And this proves very annoying to Joe. Meanwhile, turns out that Pina, the, the, the, the, the, the woman of the couple was, is a therapist. And then we get to discover how they met each other, how they met each other through therapy and in fact the kind of life that they are now living, which is completely the opposite, like absolutely the opposite of the life that the first couple that we met are living. So as I said before, there is the invocation of Diane Keaton and it is, in my opinion, the sort of grown up, when you say adult meaning grown up rather than adult meaning porn, which thank, you know, thank you America for meaning taking the word adult and turning it into something else comedy that flourished in the, in the 70s, largely atrophied later on, which is, you know, a movie about relationships, both emotional and physical. I mean, it is interesting that it seems to have taken a remake of a Spanish film to give America this kind of material. And I thought the whole thing was excruciating in a very good way. It reminded me at times of the tone of. There's a play called God of Carnage, which. A play that I really, really liked by Yasmina Reza and that was then filmed as Carnage. And the film of Carnage was taken terrible. But the play of God of Carnage which I saw was really good. And it's that thing about. It's the bourgeois satire about people stuck together in a place and attempting to maintain an appearance of normality whilst everything around them is falling apart and whilst their inner demons are sort of rising up before you. But all. All under the kind of cloak of a. Of a polite engagement. Oh, a dinner party in dinner party. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, I don't need me. I don't need that. I don't need this. And you, you lot make a lot of noise upstairs. And you, you seem to be argu quite a lot, and you've got a weird relationship. And there's one point in which Seth Rogen, I think pretty everyone delivers the line, oh, f. Off Hawk. And I think it's pretty much the only point in the thing at which the kind of. The open hostility suddenly rears its head. The performances are very good. I mean, Seth Rogen and Olivia Wilde, as the bickering malcontents who have forgotten why they were once in love, are really, really. You get, you know, you get that sense of they've just grown weary of each other. Meanwhile, the Ed Norton and Penelope Cruz characters, these sort of smug free spirits whose smiling openness actually hides something. Because again, there's a moment when the Ed Norton's character is really passive aggressive. He constantly. No, you know, everything's. Yeah, that's very open. I admire your truthfulness. And at one point, he gets old. Stop, interrupt. You know, you're always doing that. You're always correcting me. You're always correcting me. And at times I was kind of.

[Olivia Wilde]

Of.

[Mark Kermode]

At times I was like almost kind of burying my face in my hands. Because that thing about that The. The comedy of anxiety, the comedy of the. The. The. The facade of normality collapsing is very. I find it both compelling and very, very difficult. But I thought. I thought it had. It, had. It had real energy to it.

[Simon Mayo]

And what.

[Mark Kermode]

What worked was. And this is what I particularly agree with Ed Norton about not really going further into the plot.

[Ed Norton]

It's.

[Mark Kermode]

Is that each new revelation happens with a degree of balance that it's not like suddenly a huge, ridiculous leap. It's as you discover the things about these couples, they're all discovered sort of just by scratching away at the surface. And I think Ed Norton is particularly good at being particularly slimy. I think Seth Rogen is very, very good at being convincingly frustrated. I think that Olivia Wilde's character looks like she is one cracked smile away from completely blowing her to top. And I think that Penelope Cruz, in this kind of very funny, very imperious way, is like the only character who appears to be in control of her surroundings until the moment that she isn't. And I, I do think that any film in this day and age, particularly an American film that addresses any kind of grown up adult subject matter in a way that isn't, you know, needs to be sort of embrace. And it's interesting that the bidding war that this provoked after it was first played was won by a 24. And that kind of makes sense because they've kind of carved the niche in horror and surrealism and, you know, and that area and that, I mean, I, I enjoyed it very much. I'm very interested to know what you thought of it because your, your and my taste in excruciating comedy is slightly different.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, well, it was, it was excruciating, but I, but I did enjoy, enjoy it. And just on, on the Olivia world's choices to where it ends up, she was absolutely emphatic that this is a cinematic release and she said no to the streamers. So in that sense, again, it's traditional. I mentioned just at the end of the interview about there was a, there is a title sequence at the beginning. Like it, you know, like it always used to be. Now films just start and you don't. You get the titles at the end. But I thought one of the, one of the strengths was that each of the four characters, and there are only four characters apart from, from an. An orchestra that you see briefly at the beginning is sort of intriguing and almost worth the movie. You know, how did, how did you end up like this? They're three dimensional characters. It's not that there's. There's two and then there's a slightly kind of sketchy couple. And there's some. But there's some. And there's some weird stuff. And I mean this in a, in a good way, which is clearly deliberate. First of all, it's very strange. They don't have any wine at all. And one of the things Seth Rogen has failed to do is to bring the wine. That was his job. But they also don't appear to have any wine glass glasses and thinking, oh, this is, this is. There's something strange going here. And the ending is splendidly enigmatic. And you'll talk about the ending. Okay.

[Ed Norton]

You.

[Simon Mayo]

Do you feel. That's hopeful. Do you feel depressed? I don't know. What do you know? What do you think? So I thought there were some very intriguing things. And there's some. And it's laugh out loud funny. And it is not a date movie.

[Mark Kermode]

No, but it's also funny because you mentioned the thing about at the Beginning, there's the orchestra. Okay. And I've almost completely forgotten that it actually begins with Seth Rollins. Rogan's character, you know, have it. He's meant to be commenting on a performance of a piece, and he's just. And he's just. He's not listening. And the orchestra performed this piece and they looked him. And he goes, yeah, yeah, just do it again. And then he goes off and he gets on his bike, and by the time he gets home, you have. I've almost completely forgotten that his job actually does involve doing something of any musical involvement at all because he's so paranoid about ever, you know, the whole thing about he won't play the keyboard anymore. And he won't play the keyboard because his dream of being a pop star didn't happen. And so when I refer that thing about worker schlub, it. He does seem to be somebody who's just stuck in a job that he's not interested in anymore. He's not. He hasn't got any. He's got. No. Although he's still working in music, you know, he's still working in music. Music is still his love. Music was his first love and it will be his last. But he's just treating it like an office job.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yeah. And. And then. And then it becomes the four hands hand play, which, you know, which we were talking about. But I. So I think it's going to be. I don't know what awards it might win, but I think it's going to be a huge hit because it is. It's laugh out loud funny. Four big movie stars, and I'd forgotten how funny Ed Norton could be. So I thought it was. I thought it was a big hit, really.

[Mark Kermode]

I, I think Ed Norton is very, very funny. I mean, I think Ed Norton is hilarious in Fight Club, but I think Ed Norton has got absolutely brilliant comic timing, you know, And I, and I, I, I, yeah, I do like that. I, I do like the idea that his character, who seems to be so kind of, you know. Yeah, no, yeah. You know, you're being honest. You speak. We like honesty. As is. As. Is as annoying as he is.

[Simon Mayo]

Don't watch it with your kids. Don't watch it with your parents. Watch it with some friends, I would think. And so this is an enigmatic question mark. Did you feel encouraged at the end?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, there's a question at the end that just before we did the interview we were raising about. I mean, obviously, one of the things that the drama has to do is it has to find A way of concluding and I think the conclusion. My own feeling, without giving this away, my own feeling was that in the course of the drama, everything had gone to pieces. And I'm not sure that. That I. That I buy the finale. Finale. But then, you know, maybe that's just because I was. I can't imagine coming out of an evening like that and ever looking anyone one in the face again.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I. I think Seth Rogen's character thinks one thing and Olivia Wilde's character thinks another thing.

[Mark Kermode]

That's an. Okay, fine. So. So. So. So, actually, that's right. So the ambivalence is. Yeah, the ambivalence is. No, no, it is.

[Simon Mayo]

And built in. And built in. And that's exactly what you used to think.

[Ed Norton]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

We'd love to know what you think. Of course. [e-mail] Child 3 sent me a message this morning saying, how's the laughter Lifting. Looking.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

So. And I said, well, it's full, but, you know, I'm, you know, there's always, always room for improvement. So the question is, Mark, how much room for improvement is there? Okay. That's your question that you have to assess. You're the sole arbiter on this.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. Okay. So here we go.

[Simon Mayo]

Play the music. I think this music is great, actually. I sometimes whistle. I whistle this sometimes walking down the street. Anyway. Yeah. I hope you've been enjoying the Norwegian rowing celebration. Have you? At the World Cup, You've been enjoying that?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I've seen it. I've seen. I've seen people doing it in the streets.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, okay. Well, it's. It's great that Norway are through to the. To the round of 16 by beating Ivory Coast. I'm sure you were watching that on your television.

[Mark Kermode]

I wasn't. Clearly that's news to you.

[Simon Mayo]

Did you hear the story this week about one of their top fans, Olaf the Viking, who was out shopping at a New Jersey supermarket when he comes across a little old lady in a mobility scooter, visibly upset. Whatever is the matter, old American lady? Asks Olaf with typical Norwegian bluntness. Oh, sobs the old lady. I wanted to have a look at the frozen puddings, but as you can see, there are five steps down into the chill chiller cabinets. No problem, says Olaf the Viking, lifting her onto his back. I'll take you. Olaf strolls through the chiller cabinets with a little old lady on his back. She picks out several delicious puddings and pops them in the basket he's carrying for her at the other end. The old lady's husband is waiting with her mobility scooter. I'd really like to thank you, says the old lady as Olaf gently places her back down in the seat. But I've no idea who you are. All I know is that you're here for the World Cup. Olaf just waves and walks off. I was really worried about you, Barbara, says the old lady's husband. What have you been doing? I've been through the desserts on a Norse with no name, says she.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, again, it works, but as a written joke, because deserts and desserts, just one letter apart changes the whole emphasis of the word. But anyway, top American joke, as in America wow.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow. Well, I mean, I spent a lot of it wondering where it was going to and then it didn't disappoint. Good.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, there was, I mean the, the, the funniest joke about Horse with no Name by America is, I think, is it Chris Rock? Anyway, some American comedian who basically, basically said you would think after spending all that time in the desert, you'd have worked out a name for the blessed horse. But anyway.

[Mark Kermode]

But that was always like Danny Baker's observation about the Thin Lizzy song. Tonight there's going to be a jailbreak somewhere in this town. Probably the jail.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, that was Danny who thought of that first.

[Mark Kermode]

It was oft repeated.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, still to come.

[Mark Kermode]

Still to come. Minions and monsters. Yes,

[Simon Mayo]

This summer Prime Video takes you

[Mark Kermode]

back before Legally Blonde, before law school, and into the world of Elle woods in high school. Set in 1995, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from Bel Air to Seattle.

[Simon Mayo]

Packed with iconic fashion, 90s nostalgia and

[Mark Kermode]

a throwback soundtrack, Elle Pro proves one law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of Legally Blonde, watch

[Simon Mayo]

Elle, a new original series only on Prime Video.

[Mark Kermode]

Watch now.

[Simon Mayo]

If we knew more about our sleep,

[Ed Norton]

what would we do differently? Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep? With Sleepscore, Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions and sleep duration. Then every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high. Know your sleep score with Apple Watch iPhone 11 or later required.

[Simon Mayo]

Right before we get to Minions, an interesting email from Alexis who sends us this, which looks like a social media post.

[Mark Kermode]

Post okay.

[Simon Mayo]

From the Kapiti coast community page in New Zealand. So we had, we had Leo Woodall on the show talking about Tuna and we were saying he didn't seem enormously kind of fluent when it came to actually saying much about the film.

[Mark Kermode]

He found it hard to talk about the role, I think.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. Okay, so the Kapiti coast community page. Shoreline Cinema, what can I says? We may be a small, out of the way cinema, but you never know who you may be watching a movie movie with. As so happened last Sunday, staff served a handsome young man waiting to go into the afternoon session of Tuna. Sitting below the poster with his face all over it was none other than Leo Woodall, the English actor currently on the up and up. When recognized, he explained that he hadn't seen the film since it was completed 18 months ago. His wishes for privacy. We won't publish any pictures, but if you do want to see him, the tuner is at the Shoreline is your best, best bet. And he sat in seat D1, in case you want to do that. Anyway, now he's currently in. In New Zealand filming Lord of the Rings, the Hunt for Gollum, which is what he did say also in the interview. Yeah, but maybe he's just. It's a long time ago and he's forgotten.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. I mean, we, we often forget that at the point that we interview people about films. It was two years ago that they made it. And I was just saying in my review of Supergirl that I had to go to the Internet to look up what I thought of Supergirl from last year because it had had so little impact that I couldn't remember at all. And I. If you're constantly working and I suppose if you're a. If you're an actor, every time you get into the next role, I suppose you have to kind of effectively wipe the memory clean and start again with the next character. So if you're four or five movies down the way and you're saying, you know, what was it? I don't know, maybe. Maybe you're just. And particularly if you haven't seen it, because that has happened quite a lot before, hasn't it, that you have. You have interviewed actors. It never happens with directors, obviously, but interviewed actors who haven't actually seen the finished film.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. Some people famously don't never want to watch. And I'm.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

I say, well, so I've seen the movie and you haven't, and you're the star of the film.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, just one thing, you might have seen this. Being a reader of Private Eye in the bath with a beer. Dave has sent in a little clipping from the current Private Eye Eye, which has got a photograph of you and a photograph of Pete Heth. And underneath Pete Heth it says Young Kermode. And underneath you it says photograph of you from many years ago. Secretary for War and Simon Blake on a letter says, deep, Did Pete Hexith have a rant about the poor quality of Sex in the City 2 when he was presenting the movie review show on Radio 5 live? Conversely, did Mark Kermode purge the Pentagon of senior military officials? I think we should be talking told so there's a photograph. So basically, never mind you being more like Nixon now you appear to be more like Pete Hegseth. I'm sure you'll be thrilled with that.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow, Pete Kegsbreath, that's the worst yet. I mean, you know, I used to look like Nixon, then Michael Gove, now Pete Kegsbreath. Wow, you're going the wrong way, basically. And it actually says Young Kermode underneath it, which is. I'm making a big point about I look like that now, but now I look old, cold. What a terrible thing. Incidentally, on the subject of Nixon, did you hear the hilarious JD Vance thing saying, yeah, well, you know, if Watergate happened now, it may be a 12 hour news cycle. I mean, you know, and it's like, yeah, we do know. We know exactly what you mean, J.D. vance, because your government is so corrupt that Watergate literally looks like a 12 hour news cycle in comparison. It's just that when you said it out loud, you didn't say it like that. You said it like it was a good thing that Watergate would have been a 12 hour news cycle.

[Simon Mayo]

Correspondence.com. thank you very much indeed for all the correspondence coming in. Meantime, Minions and monsters, here we go.

[Mark Kermode]

Use certificate for very mild comic violence, threat and rude humor. And I'm sorry, but never has a BBFC certificate. Felt more like a solid endorsement. So Minions creator, Pierre Coffin, he's a French animator, voice artist, co director of Despicable Me movies and Minions movies. And he was the guest on the show last week. And you interviewed him. You'd interviewed him before. I'm still very jealous because I've never interviewed him. And it was a great interview. And you said, tell me about getting work to work on the project. And he said, well, I made this because I never wanted to make another Minions film. And then Chris Melodandrie pitched him the idea. And the idea that he pitched was Minions wanting to make a monster movie and then summoning a monster which turns against the Minions and starts destroying the earth. Meaning the Minions have to correct their blunder. Once again. Again. But he had me at Minions wanting to make a movie. And I thought it was lovely, firstly to have somebody say, this began by me never wanting to make another Minions movie. And then somebody pitches me idea and I go, okay, well, that I'll do. So he said immediately, his idea was, well, we set it in Hollywood in the 20s when. And again, to quote. To quote Pierre Coffin from your brilliant interview, when film became an industry and I could reference people coming over from East Germany and building studios and making films, there was so much content, context. So the context here is, this is the story of two Minions, Henry and James. And that has to be a Henry James joke, right? Henry and James, you would imagine so, but. And without whom Hollywood as we now know it would not exist. James is a creative one. He likes to draw, he likes to tell stories, and ultimately to make movies. And you suggested that he is basically, basically Pierre Coffin, you said, that's him, it's you, right? You know, you like to sit, you like to draw, you like to tell stories. That's you. And Pierre Cofan said, well, I don't know, you know, maybe, but I'm not sure. Anyway, he finds his nirvana in Hollywood. Here's a clip.

[Simon Mayo]

First things first.

[Mark Kermode]

Who are you?

[Simon Mayo]

Is there a name I can just

[Mark Kermode]

call all of you? Minions. Look, Minions.

[Simon Mayo]

My name is Max. Yeah, hi.

[Molly Sims]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm so sorry about earlier. So I would like to work with you. We should make movies.

[Olivia Wilde]

Movies, movies, movies.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm sorry, I just want to watch the whole film again. So Christoph Waltz there as movie maker Max, who brings the Minions into the studio. And there they encounter a range of colorful characters, including the green flappy faced Gary Orkam, Oliver Magma, Ichabod the Deceiver, Goomy to his friends, who then becomes the sort of the portal through which all the other monstrous stuff starts happening. So essentially what you've got is this is a Minions movie in which the action centers on early cinema. Chaplin, Keaton Lloyd and mid century science fiction and monster movie riffs. And daily Earth stood Still, the Blob. Now, I love the Minions, right? I think we all know that I love early cinema. Chaplin, Keaton Lloyd. I love mid century sci Fi day, the Earth, still, the Blob. Somebody put a post on, on social media, on Instagram, which said, I've just seen the description of the new Minions movie. Kermode is going to explain explode. And so it was. Firstly, the level of cine literacy in this movie is off the charts. I mean, from the sort of fleeting sight gags about The Lumiere's and Meliers alongside all those kind of the slapstick icons, which is obviously the genre in which the Minions have always absolutely excelled. I mean, the Minions are for me the modern day incarnation of Keaton and Lloyd and Chaplin in terms of the slapstick, huge. And this fantastical science fiction on which I grew up, I mean, I grew up watching sci fi reruns on television. You know, I loved Star Trek, but I really, really loved old science fiction movies. It was just a roller coaster, absolute roller coaster. You called it in your conversation with Pierre Kofat. You called it a joy filled 90 minute cinematic experience, which is a great phrase, which I think they should put that on the poster. Simon Mayo. A joy filled 90 minute cinematic experience. But you also said you have to re watch it or you felt like you had to re watch it so as not to miss the jokes. Right?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yeah, go two or three times, probably to get all of them.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And I just thought I want to re watch it again, not only to get the jokes, but just because I want to laugh at all the jokes. I laughed at the first time because I will laugh at it the second time. There's a lovely moment in the interview when you and Pierre Cofan were talking about this and, and Kilfan said that he was a little worried that it was possible that this film was more of a timepiece. That was a phrase he used, a timepiece than the other Minions movies. And that quote, children might not get that stuff. And certainly there are plenty of members of the young audience who will not get that stuff. They won't get, oh, that's a joke about that. And that's a joke about that doesn't matter at all because the slapstick will see them through the gaps in the cine literacy. I mean, the reason it works is it's not fun funny because it's like, oh, that's clever. Oh, well done. You know, nod, nod, you know, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. That stuff is all in there because it's all in there. But that's not why it's funny. It's funny because it's incredibly funny because the slapstick is done incredibly well. It just happens to be playing out in a world which has been created by somebody who is clearly in love with the idea of movies and clearly in love with the idea of making a movie about making a movie. You also pointed out, and I thought this was very funny to coffin that there's, there's an old, an old science fiction movie called the Blob in which a blob lands on earth and, you know, at one point devours a diner and it eats everything in its way. And it was very much a kind of, you know, reds under the beds scare movie that the blob has this red glowing thing and it's like, oh, it's communist infiltration in the center of this. This, the big, big bad thing is a huge gelatinous orange blob that just devours everything in its way. And you said to Pierre Kofan, well, I mean, that's, you know, that's a joke about. And he went, what? And he said, you know, a great big. And he. He had to at least feign the pretense that it never occurred to him.

[Simon Mayo]

He feigned. He feigned it very well. I imagine he's doing that in every.

[Mark Kermode]

But it was, you know, if the. If the timely thing that everyone is terrified of in the 1950s is the Reds, the timely thing that everyone is just horrified by in the. Whatever we are in now is the oranges. Even if Coffin said. Coffin said it never occurred to him. But the key thing is at the center of it is there is this tenderness in the middle of all the madness. There is this central relationship between these two misfit minions who are interested in telling stories and drawing funny pictures. And they're more interested in that than what minions ought to be interested in, which is finding Big Boss.

[Simon Mayo]

Big Boss.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, go find the big boss to follow. And there is something really genuinely charming about. So I keep banging the table about that central friendship. So look, I mean, I thought first it was a love letter to cinema. And that always makes me happy because just to see movies made by people who love movies is great, but particularly the cinema of a bygone age, the lessons of which modern movies would do well to learn from. I mean, you can still look at silence and I can still look at early cinema and see storytelling techniques that are so advanced that nowadays when you're looking at something like Supergirl, you think you need to go back and watch an old silent film and how the storytelling works and why it is that it's so clear. I laughed like an idiot all the way through. I thought the slapstick jokes were just spectacular. I was really charmed by the Stanley Unwin esque quality of minionese. It's funny because you and I were talking about this before we started recording and we're saying that Stanley Unwin, I mean, do you think listeners know who Stanley Unwin is?

[Simon Mayo]

No. This is where. So Mark and I, as you've heard, have done this kind of minionesque kind of trail just as a way of getting in the, in the groove. And exactly as Pierre Coffin said last week, you know, you change it electronically and you mess around with it to end up sounding like pinky and perky. But I said that my script felt a bit like I was Stanley Unwin. But I'm almost certain that most people will not, not understand because he was really before my, I mean he was before my, it was my, it was my parents era really. But I mean, Google him. He's very funny and he speaks in a very strange, has a particular way of reconstructing a sentence.

[Mark Kermode]

But one of the things that he may be most famous for is that he's the narrator of Ogden's Nut Gone Flake, which is a, you know, a rock album that obviously you'll be familiar with. And, and he, he narrates the story of, you know, the, the, the, the moon and dangly and it's, and it's, it's like he talks gibberish, but it's, it's English but with gibberish. You can understand what he's saying, but it's also kind of nonsense. And that was what he did and it was an amazing thing. I think there is a lot of Stanley Unwin in Minionese and I was. The other thing I think is really important to say is watching this reminded me just how difficult it is to do these things. Firstly, I mean, when we did that little Minions thing earlier on, as you said, and it's very, very hard to get it even close to the genius of what's happening with Dominions, because making gibberish sensible is a very, very hard thing to do. And the other thing is slapstick is one of the hardest forms of movie comedy, physical comedy. Now I guess I know you're talking about animation, but animation is as physical as, you know, live action film comedy because you have to, everything is to do with timing. And I was just looking at this thinking they just don't miss a beat. They just do not miss a beat. I mean the, the, from the gibberish language to the spot on snare drum like rhythm of the slapstick comedy, it was just hit after hit after hit and I loved every minute of it. And I think you did too.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh yes, absolutely. It was. Well, I think as you probably heard last week, that there are very few films, films, even if it's a joy filled 90 minute cinematic experience where you think I'll have another one then you know, because. No, I've seen it. It's fine. I'll come back to it in a couple of years. But I did feel as though I had, I had clearly taken less from it. You know, obviously the more you know about movies, the more you're going to get. It's still funny. Like you said, you can take a 10 year old and they're still going to laugh. But the more you know about the movies, the more you'll find it intriguing. And I would like to see it again, knowing more about it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, just fab. I just like to see it again. I just like to see it again.

[Simon Mayo]

I wonder what the movie of the week will be because that is it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Jen, Eric and Josh. The producer was Dom, the redacted Simon Paul in take two. Although he's disappeared to go and watch a movie in take two. We're directing you to the overflow car park for more chat about current film releases. Plus five Question Film Club three questions, your majesty. Thank you. Questions in which case case in which this week we're asked how many commemorative popcorn buckets we've acquired. And if AI scraping is really all that bad, really, you can get it ad free along with the full back catalog and the chance to vote on future episodes by signing up to our Patreon. Just say Comedomayo Patreon for the exclusive good Just search Coma de Mayo Patreon for the exclusive good stuff. Mark, what is your film of the week? Ah, no, it's not Nirvana, is it?

[Mark Kermode]

No. Minions and Monsters. I loved, loved, loved, loved, loved it.

[Simon Mayo]

Back next week with director Thomas Kael who's just produced Moana as a live action Disney reimagining Mark's review of that film and Evil Dead Burn. And I think I'll bestow a year's Ultra membership to our correspondent of the week who I think I will make Jocelyn Mr. Jocelyn Evans, Member of the Goths and slightly skeptical about Disclosure day. And it was very entertaining. You get the Ultra membership. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Please email any thoughts to correspondenceobedomayo.com.

[Ed Norton]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mints offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] switch upfront payment

[Molly Sims]

of $45 for three months, $90 for

[Mark Kermode]

six months or $180 for a 12

[Molly Sims]

month plan required $15 per month equivalent to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.