Are we in for a MOAN-A from Mark about live action remakes?

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Are we in for a MOAN-A from Mark about live action remakes?
Date: July 9, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode & Simon Mayo
Special Guest: Thomas Kail (director, Moana live-action)

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode orbits Disney's new live-action Moana remake—reviewed and debated by Mark Kermode with a special interview with director Thomas Kail. The show also features reviews of Rosebush Pruning and Evil Dead Burn, listener correspondence, box office top 10, and plenty of characteristically sharp, affectionate banter between Mark and Simon. The broader theme grapples with live-action remakes: Are they necessary, do they bring anything new, and can they capture the magic of the originals?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Live Setting, Catching Up, and Listener Letters

• Mark’s Location: Mark calls in from Bavaria/Austria while touring with his silent-movie band and reflects humorously on his makeshift “Grand Budapest Hotel”-like setup (03:00–04:21).
• Simon’s Recent Interviews: Simon shares stories about interviewing Pete Townshend, Christopher Nolan, and members of The Specials, highlighting the privilege and challenges of securing big-name guests (06:01–07:45).
  • Quote – Simon (on Chris Nolan):
    “It’s quite a thing to have an audience with Chris Nolan.” (07:35)
• Listener Letters: Heartfelt and funny audience messages, including one on watching Aliens while awaiting labor in a hospital (11:08–12:27).

2. Film Reviews

Rosebush Pruning (14:55–20:43)

• Description: Satirical bourgeois drama directed by Karim Ainuz, script by Efthymis Filippou (frequent Lanthimos collaborator), starring Callum Turner, Jamie Bell, Elle Fanning, Tracy Letts, and Riley Keough.
• Themes & Style: Family dysfunction, dark comedy, incestuous depravity, and arch satire; comparisons drawn to Yorgos Lanthimos and Brandon Cronenberg, but this is dubbed “Lanthimos-lite.”
• Mark’s Verdict:
  “Some of it is entertaining, some of it is fun in a bizarre way. Some of it is way too on the nose… Crucially, I think it isn’t anything like as clever as it thinks it is... But I wasn’t bored.” (20:33)
• Simon: “It doesn’t sound like it’s one for me, Mark.”
  Mark: “I don’t think it is.” (20:43)

Box Office Top 10 (23:54–38:13)

• Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie: A listener describes it as “the funniest film I’ve seen all year... a celebration of friendship.” (24:13)
• Obsession: Mark praises it as “terrific... proper substance... a film about control and domestic abuse wrapped as horror.” (29:13)
• The Invite: Listener Ben lauds its adult sensibility and emotional complexity; Mark agrees, calling it an “adult film in the best sense... a film for grownups” (32:20–33:25)
• Minions and Monsters: Both hosts delighted; rapid-fire jokes and cine-literacy make it a highlight. Mark: “It was made for me… airplane levels of bang, bang, bang jokes” (37:23)
• Toy Story 5: Mark: “I’m not a fan, but it’s doing terrifically well. The franchise still has legs.” (38:05)

3. Interview: Thomas Kail – Directing Live-Action Moana

Starts at 40:09; Interview at ~42:00–56:25

• Kail’s Background: Theatre-director par excellence (Hamilton, In the Heights), now tackling his first big Disney project.
• How Kail Got Involved: Lin-Manuel Miranda, a close creative partner, worked on Moana’s songs while working on Hamilton. Disney reached out for the live-action adaptation, with Lin’s “blessing” and Dwayne Johnson’s support (42:29–46:20).
• Casting Moana:
  • Over 32,000 auditioned; 16-year-old Catherine Laga’aia blew Kail away:
    “The hair on the back of my neck stood up. I’ve had this feeling before—when I met Daveed Diggs or Leslie Odom [of Hamilton].” (47:34)
  • She must be “fearless…act, sing, dance, swim, interact with animals, be with Dwayne Johnson” (49:29)
• Making It “New”: Kail’s approach is like theatrical revival: honor the text, but find freshness in interpretation.
  “I tell a lot of the same stories in different places. I think I’m chasing the same thing.” (44:53)
• “When did it become its own thing?”: Early on, seeing 200 Polynesian actors, choreographed movement, the energy of real bodies. “You realize you’re doing something that’s never existed—even if the text is the same.” (52:10)
• On Prejudgment of Remakes: Kail is aware audiences may feel protective but believes in the story’s universality. “We approach this, not afraid of what we were doing, but trusting what we were doing.” (53:08)
• On AI in Filmmaking:
  • Grateful for the work of “2,944 human beings,” prefers tools that support human creativity, sees AI as a possible tool, not a replacement (54:41–56:10): “Films are made by real people doing real jobs, and those skills are ones that I want to celebrate.” (55:52)
• Memorable moment: When the new Moana actress returns to Sydney after global filming and says, “Oh, I’m home.” Kail: “Don’t make me cry in front of people…” (51:13)

4. Mark’s Review: Moana (Live-Action) (57:31–65:44)

• Mark’s Take: Laments Disney’s endless live-action remakes as “largely pointless,” but:

  “Of all the pointless Disney live-action remakes… this is the best. The story and songs are indestructible… It does no harm to the original, and more importantly, it is almost as enjoyable as the original. Dwayne Johnson is fantastic. Catherine Loga’aia is great. Against all my inherent grumpiness… I laughed and I cried and I thought, okay, it’s working.” (64:08)

• On Remake Debate: “Do we need it? Absolutely not. Did I enjoy it? Yes.” (65:20–65:44)
• Simon’s Perspective: Had not seen the original Moana, so experienced the story fresh; was moved and impressed by the scale and humanity.

5. Other Film Reviews

Evil Dead Burn (69:56–78:06)

• Mark’s History with the Franchise: Adores Raimi’s original for its blend of humor and horror, recalls BBFC controversies.
• This Version:
  • “It ups the nastiness, but lacks any of the slapstick fun… It is ugly and grimy… depressing… no sense of joy, just lumbering nastiness.”
  • “The violence is wincy... licking, drool, and faces pushed into squishy other faces… just generally a bit ucky.” (75:09–75:12)
  • One standout gag (old lady and stairlift), but mostly, “It was as if my longstanding love of horror had the life snuffed out of it.”
  • “The original was terrifying and hilarious. This is neither.” (78:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Live Action Remakes:
  Mark: “This is the best [Disney remake]. The story and songs are indestructible... It would be hard to mess it up—and this doesn’t.” (63:54)
• On Casting Moana:
  (Kail, on Catherine Laga’aia’s audition)
  "It's a biological reaction… hair on the back of my neck stood up. I’ve had this feeling before." (47:34)
• On Industry & AI:
  (Kail) “Films are made by real people and real people doing jobs, from catering and laundry to VFX… those skills are ones that I want to celebrate.” (55:52)
• Mark’s Moana Self-Interview:
  “I’m doing the thing which you hate. I’m asking myself questions. Interviewing yourself. …Do we need it? Absolutely not. Did I enjoy it? Yes.” (65:17–65:44)
• On Minions and Monsters:
  Mark: “Airplane levels of bang, bang, bang jokes. The slapstick in it is just sublime.” (37:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:00—Mark describes his Bavarian setup; banter on the podcast’s setting
• 06:00—Simon’s recent interviews (Pete Townshend, Christopher Nolan, The Specials)
• 14:55—Mark reviews Rosebush Pruning
• 23:54—Box Office Top 10 discussion begins
• 29:13—Mark on Obsession: “scariest film he’s ever seen”
• 32:20—Invite: listener and Mark discuss its “adult film for grownups” status
• 37:00—Minions & Monsters: both rave, Mark notes “airplane-level” joke density
• 40:09—Thomas Kail introduction
• 42:06—Interview with Thomas Kail, discussing Moana live-action (through 56:25)
• 57:31—Mark’s live-action Moana review begins
• 64:08—Mark concludes Moana: “Against all my inherent grumpiness... I laughed and I cried... it’s working.”
• 65:44—Simon’s first-ever Moana viewing; their AI discussion
• 69:56—Evil Dead Burn review starts
• 78:06—Mark’s damning conclusion: “The original was terrifying and hilarious. This is neither.”

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Tone & Language

Maintains the show’s trademark blend: witty, self-aware, cine-literate, and playful while being passionate about cinema. Mark is analytical and sometimes grumpy, Simon gently inquisitive and avuncular.

• Mark’s “moaning” is as much about the principles and trends in cinema (“largely pointless remakes”) as about any individual film.
• Simon’s cool-headed optimism balances the tone.

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Final Notes

• Film of the Week: Moana (“Boom!” says Simon, knowingly.)
• Correspondence Highlight: Sarah in Bristol—for her perseverance and good humor—granted a year’s Ultra membership.
• Looking Ahead: Next week features a Christopher Nolan interview and Mark’s review of The Odyssey.

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A must-listen for Disney fans, cinephiles skeptical of remakes, or anyone who loves film talk with depth and wit. Even the grumpiest Kermode emerges at least half-converted by Moana’s indestructible joys.

Transcript

[A]

Hello?

[B]

Hello, Simon Mayo. It's Mark Kermode.

[A]

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[B]

Sorry?

[A]

State the password.

[B]

What password?

[A]

Exactly what an imposter would say.

[B]

Simon, it's Mark. We. We host a podcast together.

[A]

Public information.

[B]

No. You've been watching Mission Impossible again, haven't you?

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Maybe. Right.

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[B]

Hello, Simon Mayo.

[A]

Hello Mark.

[B]

I see your lovely new bookshelves haven't buckled yet. There's a particularly weighty and wise looking one by name Kermode on there too.

[A]

True, but getting them up nearly buckled me. Even giving up and hiring someone was a full time job.

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That's taskrabbit.co.uk, code take terms and conditions apply.

[A]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[B]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[A]

and non film questions answered as best we can in questions you can get

[B]

all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[A]

There's never been a better time to become a vang. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. Hot diggity. Hot diggity. Hot diggity.

[C]

Hot.

[A]

Who is that? That's like an old movie.

[B]

Hot diggity. Hot diggity. Hot diggity. Hot. Yes. No Diggity.

[A]

No, it's hot diggity. It's like.

[B]

No, you're right.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like a 1950s Hollywood musical which just came to me as I was feeling particularly hot diggity. But you appear to be in a public convenience somewhere. I mean, it looks very beautiful, but

[B]

how dare you say that? I spent an hour setting this shot up. I am in the guest house Brunstein in Obradorf in Bavaria, since I am here because the dodgies are playing, you know, we company silent movies. So we're gonna accompany Beggars of Life tonight just across the way. We're currently in Bavaria, but the place we're playing, which is, and get this, the biggest opera house in Austria.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

It's called the Festspielhaus El and it is the biggest opera house. And we have sold it out because we're very big in Bavaria, Austria. I keep being told to not confuse the two of. So, yeah, so I'm here, and so I've come to this place in order. In order to set it up and make everything look nice. And I spent an hour setting up this shot. And if anyone's watching the video, you will notice it looks like the Grand Budapest Hotel, which I was very, very pleased with. And then when Josh, our brilliant engineer, came on, he went, wow, what an amazing. Looks like the Grand Budapest Hotel. And I said, great, brilliant. Then you come on, you tell me I look like I'm in a toilet.

[A]

Well, it's the windows with their smoked glass.

[B]

Those aren't windows. Those are panels. That's paneling. That's paneling.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Windows, crucially, you can see through, as they say.

[A]

So you're in Austrian Bavaria. The part.

[B]

No, at the moment. Yeah, at the moment I'm in Bavaria. And then when I leave, when I leave here, I'm going to go across the stream, and then I will be in Austria, and that's where the Festspiel House l is. And then I will come back to Bavaria, which is where the festival is technically, to stay the night. See?

[A]

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Last. The last time I was there was for the World cup in. When it was in Germany, 2006. And I think I was there.

[B]

I was there too. I came. Do you remember? I came out for. To do the movie reviews and I walked. Did you remember this? I was there.

[A]

You forgot the first. The first day when I left the hotel. All I remember is genuinely seeing a man in lederhosen holding a stein of beer. And it was. If you'd shot that for a movie, you would be laughed out of town because nobody wears lederhosen holding a pint of beer or a litre. Except they did.

[B]

Now, I want to ask you something, but you may keep this until take two. You interviewed Pete Townsend since I last saw you.

[A]

Yes, that's absolutely true. Yeah. We did it at Opera Holland Park. It was a fundraiser for Terence Higgins Trust and it was. It was absolutely fascinating. I also found out why he wanted me to do the interview.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Because he was a big fan of Scala Radio, which has now become Magic Classical. And we. And his. His wife is Rachel Fuller, who's a composer. And Scala used to play and the Animal Requiem, which Rachel Fuller composed, very fine piece of music. And because we did that, he. He then. He wanted to find out what happened to Scala. So I said it became Magic Classical, slightly different music brief and all that kind of stuff. So we ended up talking about that.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And did. Did you talk to him about the. The Quadrophenia Opera? The Quadrophenia Ballet? Pardon me?

[A]

Yeah, it sort of. It was there as en. Passant. Really. It was there as part of the. A bigger cultural conversation. He brought along four pieces of. Well, not four pieces of music. There were two pieces of music and two soundscapes which he wanted people to listen to. And as it was kind of his people had come to see him, we let him do that.

[B]

Okay. And also. Also, since I last saw you, you also interviewed Sir Christopher Nolan. You've just been interviewing everybody.

[A]

Yeah. Also on this, Chris Nolan, two members of the Specials, because there is a kind of a final Specials album, Live from the Cathedral, which is coming out this Friday, I. E. Today, if you're listening to this on Friday, which is a really great recording and a reminder what a fantastic band they were. And Chris Chibnall, who's the Doctor who's Doctor who showrunner and the guy who invented Broadchurch, you know, and so on. So, yeah, it's been. It's been quite interview heavy, but. But fantastic. And the Chris Nolan chat was just something that. It was it turned out to be quite difficult to make it happen. But we did make it happen and people will hear that interview next week to go with the movie release. But it's always a thing. It's quite a thing to have an audience with Chris Nolan.

[B]

So, yeah, it's very good. My most exciting thing that happened to me was that when I arrived in the airport yesterday in Munich, as I arrived in Munich, I got a notification that KLM had finally found my bags that they lost in Croatia 10 days ago.

[A]

Can they send them to Munich?

[B]

No, they've. They've sent them to. They sent them to Cornwall and they'll probably be there by the time I get back. So well done. Yeah.

[A]

Hot Diggity is an American popular song by Al Hoffman and Dick manning, published in 1956, recorded by Perry Como.

[B]

Perry Como.

[A]

Not from a musical at all, but a hit for Perry Como. We like to keep down with current musical trends. Later when we get to down to the business end of this thing, Mark will be reviewing some great films or some average films. Who knows, let's find out.

[B]

I'll be reviewing some films which include Evil Dead Burn, which is the latest in the still ongoing Evil Dead series, Rosebush Pruning, which is a very strange film with Callum Turner, who, as you know, bookie's favorite to be the next James Bond and the live action Moana with our very special guest, the director

[A]

of that Disney reimagining, Thomas Kael. You can get take two ad free by heading to our Patreon page. Just search Comedomo Patreon and you'll find us. The normal place for correspondence is correspondence.com Sarah in Bristol. Hello St. George's and Bristol Beacon. Long time listener, second time emailer. The first one not read out, but there were far better emails than mine about Eye in the sky. Very humble. Sarah. Back in 2015 I bought myself a birthday treat of a ticket to see the movie Doctors in Bristol. I was very excited as I've been listening to your wittering since Radio one days. Four days before the show I slipped not one disc, but two. Oh, it hurt a lot. So sitting on a wooden chair in St. George's was not an option. I was not happy. So here I am 11 years later, delighted to buy a ticket to see you both this December in the much larger venue of Bristol Beacon. Thank you for bringing your show out of that there London town. Down with interfering on red cards and up with chiropractors. Two different worlds brought together at the end there by Sarah in Bristol. Yes, Christmas show. Who'd have thought we'd talk about Christmas with 33 degrees being. Yeah. Current temperature in this room here. Now we. We're previewing the sort of top class correspondence we get in questions, which comes at the end of take two.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So why not give it a try? So this is just like a little taster. This is from Michael Marshall.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Science writer for New Scientist and co author of a book with Alice Roberts. If that gets me any cache, he says, which it certainly does. Dear Ripley and Newt, longtime listener, first time emailer, I just heard your question about inappropriate hospital viewing choices 28 days later, really in brackets, and thought, I can top that. Thirteen years ago, the good lady special needs tutor her indoors and I were waiting for a room on the labor ward of a London hospital. It was late on a Saturday during a brutal heat wave, and she was understandably apprehensive about the imminent business of my. The way Michael says it is of being cleft in twain, which I think is an unfortunate turn of phrase. In the corner near the ceiling, a TV was tuned to film four. Seeking distraction, we looked up only to find they'd chosen aliens. Specifically the early dream sequence in which Ripley, in a hospital bed and looking decidedly fecund, has an embryonic parasite erupt from her chest. The good lady, while appreciating the irony, was less than delighted. Then we heard a small yelp. Across the room, another expectant parent who looked barely 18, had gone ashen and clammy. I nipped a reception and suggested that unless they fancied doubling the labor ward as a mental health unit, they might consider switching to Dave. Happily, all ended well. And on the 15th of July, it's our daughter's 13th birthday. If you read this out, could you wish Libet a happy birthday? Okay, Libet, happy birthday. Down with orange fascists and up with neurodivergent women. Hello to Jason. Etc. Michael Marshall.

[D]

Very good.

[A]

I mean, very good. But no one, under any circumstances, if they're responsible for what comes out of a television in a hospital, should be putting on Alien or Aliens or anything similar. It should be Mary Poppins or Toy Story. Also. No, that one's too emotional. Oh, I don't know. What's the. What's the. What would be perfect? A local hero or padding? Paddington.

[B]

There you go, Paddington. Do the thing.

[A]

That's what you need. I did it.

[B]

Yeah, I did an on. I did an on stage thing with Simon Brew recently from from Film Stories, and he was wearing a magnificent T shirt which said I communicate Mostly through obscure science fiction. No, he said I communicate mostly. Yeah, that must have been it. I communicate through obscure science fiction references mostly, which I thought was a lovely T shirt.

[A]

Very good [e-mail] tell us about a

[B]

movie that is out Rose Bush Pruning, which is a name to juggle with. This is a bourgeois satire of a rich, dysfunctional family eating themselves alive in exotically sunny climes. It's directed by Brazilian filmmaker Karim Ainuz. It is written by Ethemis Philippe, who's the Greek writer who is best known to moviegoers for his collaborations with Yorgos Lanthimos. So he's worked with Lanthimos a number of times, and I think one could say that this film comes on a little bit like Lanthimos Light. So if you remember, Yorgos Lanthimos made that weird thing Begonia, which was an unlikely remake of a South Korean sci fi comedy called Save the Green Planet. Well, Rosebush Pruning is an equally unlikely remake of a 1960s film, fist in the Pocket, which is an Italian movie that in 2008 was entered into the annals of the Italian Ministry of Cultural Heritage's list of, get this, 100 films that have changed the collective memory of the country between 1942 and 1978. Okay, pithy. All I can say is I don't think that any similar such accolade will be bestowed upon Rose Bush Pruning. So in Fists in the Pocket, it's about a young man with epilepsy who plans to kill his dysfunctional family. And it's sort of darkly comedic. So in this new movie in Rosebush Pruning, Callum Turner, who we saw most recently in Rose of Nevada, I thought was absolutely brilliant in Rose of Nevada, him and George Mackay thought were terrific together. He is Ed. He's an American who, in Very Clockwork, you know, Orange Fashion, is our kind of humble friend and narrator who will lead us through the drama. From him we learn that his family moved from New York to Catalonia, where he now lives with his brothers, sister and controlling, blind father, the last of whom is played by Tracy Letts. According to family law, their mother was torn apart by wolves in a nearby forest, and now they visit the site of her tearing apart because there was no body found. And they put sacrificial animals there in order to appease the wolves, in order to protect anybody else from being torn apart by wolves. And this is something that our narrator tells us makes no sense at all. He also thinks, and tells us quite frankly, that his entire Family are vacuous and self serving, except for his brother Jack, who is played by Jamie Bell, who is apparently the only one of us who should survive and who brings his new girlfriend Martha, played by Elle Fanning, to dinner in one of the most excruciatingly horrible dinner scenes you can imagine. In which Tracy Letts, because he is blind, says, describe her for me. Here is a clip.

[C]

Martha is blonde, very white, medium build, blue eyes.

[A]

And her handbag. What sort of handbag does she have?

[C]

It's Bottega, I think. I think it's Bottega.

[D]

Anna,

[A]

is it or is it not Bottega?

[B]

Yes, yes, it is Bottega. Jack got it for me as a gift.

[D]

And her bosom, because I was.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Her bosom, yeah. No, I can't understand why it's wrong

[D]

for me to ask about her bosom.

[B]

And that's just the beginning of the excruciation. Always worth remembering is any Tracy Letts as not just a very great screen actor, but also of course, the author behind Bug and Killer Joe and you know, anyway, terrific. And the other voice, the prime, prime voice you heard there is Riley Keough. So as for our main character, the Callum Turner character, he's this kind of wannabe fashionista and he narrates everything like, you know, in American Psycho, there's the whole thing with Patrick Bateman saying, I give the impression of. If you looked at me, you would have the impression that somebody was there, but actually there isn't. The whole thing is an illusion. There's nothing there at all. And you do get that with this. This kind of absolutely deadpan narration that there is nothing behind it. And the look of the film is it all takes place in this sort of rich, modernist, glassy house setting with this kind of detached, posh lifestyle, which reminded me a little of. Do you remember the way the house looked in Parasite? You remember it all like. Like there was. There was not a single non shiny surface in it. And everything seemed, you know, like. And in fact, in the case of this, they are all parasites feeding upon each other. The film is shot by Elaine Louvre, who is one of the great cinematographers of our time. It really kind of gets every drop of cinematic excitement out of the idea of just how detached everything looks. There's also a little bit, I think, of the kind of the. The arch sexual satire of that film Infinity Pool, the Brandon Cronenberg film, which I like very much. It's a kind of setting in which sex is weaponized and commodified and everything is an illusion and an obsession. But whilst I'm saying that the film reminded me of those movies, I have to say it isn't as good as or as memorable as any of those films. What it is is it is very peculiar. I mean, the sense of peculiarity is definitely heightened by the fact that the central character, Ed's narration is so deadpan, even as what's going on on screen sort of swims with bodily fluids and violent perversions and sort of really unspeakable dental care and comedic self harm. Yes, really. And just all manner of, kind of Fall of the House of Usher sort of incestuous depravity. In fact, the title comes from Ed's admission because he says at one point his sister says, I know what turns everyone on. He says, you don't know what turns me on. And she says, well, nothing turns you on. He says, that's not true. When I was pruning the rose bush, I became very turned on. So on one level it is kind of Fall of the House of Usher family collapsing in on itself. On another, it's upmarket Saltburn. It's kind of Saltburn for the, for the art house crowd, you know, Portrait of the lives of the rich and famous in which a taste for blood is frankly the least of everyone's problems. Some of it is entertaining, some of it is fun in a bizarre way. Some of it is way too on the nose for its own good. I mean, there's a subplot involving Pamela Anderson which, which I think struggles to rise above the level of silliness. And some of it frankly, is completely up itself. Crucially, I think it isn't anything like as clever as it thinks it is. That said, I wasn't bored, not least because it's. It's a very good ensemble cast and they are all playing it, you know, to the max. And everyone in the cast seems to be happy to throw caution to the wind as the drama wants to be outrageous. I just don't think it is as outrageous as it thinks it is. And the whole film is bookended by these 70s style titles. And there's this pumping electro soundtrack with Matthew Herbert at the helm and that's got more, more than a hint of Gasparnoe. So whilst I was watching it, I thought, okay, fine, I'm enjoying this, I am entertained. I think in the end it is pretty unmemorable. And I suspect that if you ask me about it in two weeks time, the thing I'll remember is it's like Yorgos Lanthimos light. But there are good performances in it and I think it'll come and go very fast.

[A]

It doesn't sound like it's one for me, Mark.

[B]

I don't think it is. I don't think when they were making it, they thought, I wonder what Simon Mayo thinks of this.

[A]

That's correct. If indeed anyone has ever thought that at all. Coming up after the break, Evil Dead Burn Moana. And our special guest is director of that film, Thomas Kael. You'll hear all that in just a moment.

[C]

Ear.

[A]

Mark, you remember that top secret business idea I had last year?

[B]

What you mean credit flicks? The streaming service that only shows end credits? I've told you before.

[A]

No, no, it's not that. Anyway, I'm not telling you now. People are listening. Suffice to say, I'm ready to go to the market.

[B]

In that case, you're going to need Shopify. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to bring it to life. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready from day one.

[A]

Go on.

[B]

Well, it's simple for both you and the customer. From the moment your first one is ready to pay, Shopify checkout helps more of them finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done.

[A]

Well, that would be a weight off my mind. I could focus on growing the business. I could be ready to float on the stock market in a couple of years.

[B]

That's the spirit. Because Shopify handles the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it.

[A]

With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.co.uk take

[B]

Start your free trial at shopify dot co dot UK take.

[C]

This summer, serve up the cookout classics. Oscar Mayer hot dogs and Heinz mustard. Grill up a dog, add classic yellow mustard or loaded Chicago style. We all know it's not a cookout without Oscar Mayer and Hines.

[A]

All right now before we get to our Guest, Rhys, age 19 in the Isle of Wight. Yes, I've been a long time audience member of you both, Mark, since the film review and Simon from Radio 2. And I wanted to write to say thank you for the impact you've had on my life. Cinema became a real comfort to me during difficult periods with my mental health. And discovering your 5 live show felt like finding the perfect partnership. Mark's passionate, honest love of film combined with Simon's warmth, professionalism and humor. Whether it's fiery rants or enthusiastic praise, the show brought lightness to my days and made me feel less alone. It became a kind of regular check in that helped, helped keep me grounded, and it's played a huge part in sparking and sustaining my love of film. I'm now in a much better place and I wanted to thank you for making such a difference and helping keep that passion alive every week. I also recently saw Blue Heron at the BFI and was deeply moved by its intimate storytelling, natural performances, and exploration of memory and family. It's my favorite of the year so far. Thanks for everything.

[B]

What a lovely email.

[A]

Isn't that nice?

[B]

What a really nice. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. So it's, you know, that's. That's a really, really kind email. I'm really glad you enjoyed Blue Heron, but what. Thank you for taking the time to say that.

[A]

Box office top 10 at number 11. Nirvana. Nirvana. The band, the show, the movie.

[B]

It is pronounced Nirvana. No matter how it is spelled. It is pronounced Nirvana.

[A]

Okay, okay. But if you just look at it, it's Havana.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm telling you, it's pronounced Nirvana. And I've seen the film. Okay?

[A]

Dear CN Tower and the Rivoli, I absolutely loved it. I'd never seen the show before beyond the Update day sketch, but this was the funniest film I've seen all year. I can't remember laughing this hard in the cinema. The gonzo guerrilla style filming and public interactions go constantly had me wondering, how did they film that? Sending me down a rabbit hole afterwards and making me want to watch it all over again. What really stood out was the variety of comedy, from sharp banter to fourth wall breaks, powered by a joyful, chaotic energy that never lets up. The hangover scene is still making me laugh days later. What I love most was how warm it felt. Despite the public antics. It never seemed mean spirited, more like everyone was in on the joke. At its heart, it's a genuine celebration of friendship. No big gestures, just two people chasing a ridiculous dream. And that's number 11.

[B]

I think that that's all very fair. I had a conversation with Jack Howard the other day and Jack is a friend of mine. He's a. He's a friend of mine. He's a young filmmaker and he's like less than half my age and he absolutely loves this film. He's seen it three times and one of the things he loves so much about it is the fact that the way in which it's interweaving old footage from when they first did thing with the new footage because the time traveling stuff. And he said, but he said, he said I listened to your review and I said, oh, what did you think? He said, I don't think you've ever sounded older. And I think that's completely valid. I think it's absolutely valid. And in fact I said this when I was reviewing it that I was very aware of the fact that there were whole things about it that I simply wasn't. I was simply watching, thinking. I am confused by what is going on and I am very much of the feeling that if I saw it again now kind of in tune with what it is it would look like about. I mean I didn't dislike it, as you know, I reviewed it last week, I said there are things in it, the funny, but I, I just found a lot of it unsettling. But Jack did say, he said you have never sounded older in your life. And I absolutely take that as.

[A]

And I don't think that, I don't think there's a problem with that. You know, we're not, we're not pretending to be hipsters, you know, we're not pretending to be 30. And if someone plays you a song that's Currently popular with 16 year olds, it won't be, you know, you should not pretend to go, oh yeah, I know all about that. Yeah. Because we are who we are and that's it.

[B]

We are who we are. For better or worse, the richer, for poorer.

[A]

Number 10 is scary movie number nine in America.

[B]

Yeah, well, hopefully it'll be out the top 10 next week.

[A]

So Alpha is number nine.

[B]

So this wasn't press screened. This is Indian action thriller. If anyone's seen it, send us an email, let us know.

[A]

Backrooms is at number eight, number seven

[B]

in the States done very, very well, as has Obsession. So Backrooms and Obsession are still there in, in a top 10 which has some very, very big budget movies in it, demonstrating that it is still possible to make small with a very good idea and do well with them.

[A]

Jackass Best and last is number seven, number eight in Canada.

[B]

Yes. So I told you that the good lady professor, her indoors said that she laughed for about an hour after your contribution to my Jackass review was. Oh dear. And I don't think that there's any way that you would enjoy it at all. And I, there are things that I have a really big problem with, mainly the sick and the poo, which I just can't be doing with. But I do think of all of the Jackass films, it's the one that I enjoyed the most. I do think that there is something going on there in the center of it about male friendship, but there is also the sick and the poo.

[A]

Disclosure Day is at number six.

[B]

Number five, how are you feeling about Disclosure Day now?

[A]

Well, it's only a few weeks ago. I feel the same as when I saw it.

[B]

But is it. Is it. Is it living in your mind or is it doing what it's doing?

[A]

Some scenes are. I mean, the final. You know, the. The final 20 minutes definitely does. And there are a few scenes that. That are particularly Spielberg. And the one. The one in the chase where you see a reflection in the knife, I thought that was fantastic. You know, so there are various bits and pieces, and my opinion hasn't changed in the month since I saw it.

[B]

Okay. Because the interesting thing that I'm finding about it is the more I think about it, the less I think about it.

[A]

It.

[B]

I mean, I think, as I said at the time, I think Spielberg is a master director. It's like Christopher Nolan. It's like he's not going to drop the ball. You're going to get brilliant things in it. But the more I think about Disclosure Day, the less I think about Disclosure Day. And I do think it's going to. It's going to go into the annals of incidental Spielberg.

[A]

Incidental feels a little harsh, but.

[B]

No, no. As I'm saying, I. The point I'm trying to make is I'm liking it less as I get further and further away from it. I'm not disliking it. I'm absolutely not disliking it. But it's really not staying in my mind.

[A]

Obsession is at number five. Number six in America. CHILD 1 Saw it.

[B]

Oh, and tell me thought it was

[A]

the scariest film he's ever seen.

[B]

Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. I think it's terrific. I think it's a really, really terrific film. It's got a proper substance to it. It is about something. I mean, it is a creepy movie. It's a monkey's paw thing. It's a. Careful what you w. It's a film about control and domestic abuse all wrapped up as a. As a kind of an exciting horror movie, which is really, really scary when it needs to be scary. I think. I just think it's great that it's done as well as it has. I think it's such a good film.

[A]

Supergirl is at number four here, and number Four over there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Emails or in the overflow car park. I think there's. I mean, there's lots of stuff on. On these movies.

[B]

All right, well, let's. Let's say. Let's save the Supergirl stuff for go. I mean, as I said, I saw it, I saw it, I did it, and I reviewed it in last week's chart, and I think that she is really good, and I wish the film had been better because I kind of feel like it's a tough gig when the movie isn't as good as the central performance.

[A]

Number three in the uk, number ten in America is the Invite. Interesting that it's our top three and just making it into the top 10. Yeah.

[B]

That doesn't surprise me, though, because when. When. When we were talking about it last week, there was a thing about. It's absolutely a kind of.

[D]

It's a.

[B]

It's a film with the sort of spirit of a European 1970s movie or the kind of movie that you could make in America in the 1970s, but you can't make nowadays. Anyway, carry on.

[A]

Ben Painter in Sherborne. I felt fortunate to see the invite in the cinema, and I'm glad it received a theatrical release rather than going straight to streaming, which is something that Olivia world was absolutely 100% committed to, which is why it has happened like that. The screening wasn't busy, yet. The audience became complicit guests at the dinner party, sharing in a discomfort that left us unsure where to look, what to say, or even whether to laugh. The performances make every relationship feel authentic, echoing dynamics many of us have witnessed or experienced. Much of the humor arises from unspoken irritations, the small grievances that go unaddressed until they become something more damaging. As the film builds to its satisfying denouement, it explores fear of consequence and the inevitability of personal change, sharply counterpointed by character for whom reinvention, by a character for reinvention is imposed rather than chosen. Experiencing something similar myself, I found this especially affecting. For me, this distinctly adult film, in the British sense suggests that while it's easy to laugh at its characters, those apparent caricatures often mask complex, unspoken circumstances. When one facade finally drops, perspective shifts from ridicule to understanding, giving the film a lasting emotional generosity. It is an exceptional film, says Ben. Lasting emotional generosity. I suggest that's maybe the best written email that we're going to get this week. That is.

[B]

That is. No, that is beautifully written. I mean, I think it's more scabrous than that. I think it's, you know, it has got a sort of soft heart in the end, but I think for the most, for the most part of it, it is that kind of, I mean, actually weirdly enough, I suppose it's generically connected to, to Rosebush pruning in as much as it's, it's a bit, it's a bourgeois satire of manners. But I do think it's fascinating that it is an adult film in the best sense of adult, not in the sense that the Americans use the word adult meaning porn. It is a film for grownups and I thought it was really funny. I love, I do really. I mean you talked about this, the sound design of people talking across each other, but you can actually hear what they hear, what they're saying. And that was a very much a kind of, you know, Robert Altman, Woody Allen sort of thing, which, which we were all kind of used to. And it is interesting watching that film now, how completely out of step with modern American cinema it looks. And you know, it's the sort of movie that you just can't make anymore.

[A]

And how just, I mean, I know this is a minor point. We have discussed it before how terrible that in America the, the word adult means porn. You know, there are things that are adults which are just grown up, you know, and, and this is a grown up movie, you know, so.

[B]

Yes, but then you have to remember that in America the, the, the films, most films, if not NC17, which is the, you know, the exceptional category, are for, for, for grown up audiences are rated R, which anyone can go and see. So an R rating is anyone can see the film as long as a parent or guardian says they're okay and you go okay, well that doesn't work, does it? The reason that your cinema is so infantilized is that you have an entire system. Bu idea that a four year old should be able to go and see an adult film in the true sense of the word adult. And that's why you have an infantilized culture and an infantilized cinema.

[A]

Number one in America. Number two here is Minions and Monsters. So let me zip through.

[B]

Yes, please do. And please, please tell me nice things because, because I'm, I'm. I'm so, I feel so positively about Minions and Monsters. I just want to hear good things.

[A]

Matt and Deb in Mac. That's how they signed it. My wife and I took ourselves to see the new Minions movie at the Independent Cinema in Macclesfield yesterday. And what fun it was. Good cine literate, riot of a film that seemed to be made for Mark himself by Pierre Confin. The gibberish is always understandable. How did they do that? And Coffin is clearly the heart of the film. What DreamWorks would do without him, I don't know. He's essential for the franchise going forward. I think you mean in the future. Who else can do what he does? Looking forward to revisiting the film to understand it better. Man Matt and Deb Robin Hancock Picture this An excited drive to the airport for an amazing holiday. My son and I in the car listening to this week's episode and chuckling at Mark's review of Minions. We arrive at our airport parking just before the end of the review and switch off the car. We jump out, grab our bags and head to reception. After short while in a rather packed bus, it takes us to our takes us to the terminal now it may not have been the best idea that my phone was on the loudest setting. However, having found our spot on the bus, I pulled out my phone to read a message, not knowing the podcast was still running. Cue the loudest fart noise ever. Being the center of attention on a crowded bus wasn't in the plan for the day, but hey ho, what a start to the holiday. We chuckled all the way to the plane. Thank you for your wonderful program and of course, all the all dues to the brilliant production team. Robin Hancock's Chris in Durham Dear Mr. Tumble and Mr. Tumble Dryer, I'm not quite sure how to make what to make of this email. Does Mark agree that it's both misleading and unconscionable to deliberately narrow the window of a movie to focus only on its subject's more palatable events, while stopping short of any controversial aftermath? I am, of course referring to Minions and Monsters, set in the early 20s and with a biological imperative to seek out and serve the world's most evil tyrants? The movie deliberately ends just before the Minions serve Mussolini in 22, moving on to Stalin in 24, and inevitably, Hitler from 1933. Emitting this chilling coda feels like a cynical yellow washing of history. I'm imagining that's a humorous email.

[B]

Yes, I'm imagining serious criticism. Yes, I'm imagining it's a humorous email. As opposed to an email that goes, to use one of my favorite phrases, straight to the heart of the periphery.

[A]

Yes. Anyway, so that is Minions and Monsters at number two, I think we've said. Have you said that?

[B]

I just loved it. And you loved it too, didn't you? It was not just me. You Loved it. Right?

[A]

I did. And I sat there knowing that you would love it. It's just one. Because as I said last week, you see it and you within 10 minutes, you think, no, no, I've got to come back and see this, because I might be getting. I mean, you probably got them all, but I was getting one reference in two, one reference in three. And then the jokes are so fast, you're thinking, no, I need to come back to just enjoy everything there.

[B]

It's just a demonstration that the hit rate of comedy in it is just fantastic. And it does make you realize that we sort of sometimes get used to just accepting that comedies aren't as funny as they need to be. And then you see Minions and Monsters, and you go, okay, look at that. It's airplane levels of bang, bang, bang, bang, bang jokes. And the slapstick in it is just sublime. And the in the cinema stuff is. Yeah, it was. It was. It was made for me. And I loved your interview with Pierre Coffin. And if people haven't heard that, go back and listen to it on. On the podcast, because it was terrific.

[A]

And the number one movie in the UK, number two in America, is Toy Story 5, about which you've.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not a fan, but it's doing terrifically well. And so clearly the Toy Story franchise still has legs.

[A]

And lots more correspondence later in the overflow car park. Also stuff on Supergirl and Minions and Monsters and so on. Anyway, that's in take two. Available via Patreon. And stand by, because we have a special guest next.

[C]

Hey, psst. You didn't hear this from me, but Normal Gossip is back for its ninth season. Join me, Rachel Hampton, as I share the juiciest gossip from the real world with some very special guests. This season, we're bringing back some old friends, a Radiotopia buddy, and for the first time ever, a Nobel laureate. That's right, we have Malala. On season nine, Normal Gossip is out on all your favorite podcast platforms.

[D]

He finally got her.

[C]

Oh, my God, he got her. For years, a deranged man in Wichita known as the Poet stalked Ruth Finley. He sent her letters, gifts, and poems. The Wichita police put everything they had into Ruth's case, but got nowhere.

[D]

The Poet was always two steps in

[B]

front of us, and we just didn't know why.

[C]

And the city was already living in fear under the watch of another monster who called himself btk. And he also had a thing for poetry.

[D]

Could we really have two different people?

[C]

But no one could have guessed how this would end.

[B]

That's one of those Hitchcock endings that we did not expect from Sony Music

[C]

Entertainment and New Metric Media. This is the Poet. I'm Rachel Brown. The Poet is available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast. To start listening today, subscribers to the binge can listen to all episodes all at once ad free three.

[A]

So our guest this week is American theater, film and TV director Thomas Kael. Best known for his Broadway hits in collaboration with Lin Manuel Miranda in The Heights. In 2008, got a nomination for a Tony Hamilton. In 2015, won a Tony Award for that also on Broadway, Lombardi and Magic Bird. He got an Emmy for the Fox Live broadcast of Greece Live. The also for the film adaptation of Hamilton, which is on Disney plus he was executive producer and director for Foss Verdon and the historical drama We Were the Lucky Ones from a couple of years back. Also the co creator and director of the hip hop improv group Freestyle Love supreme, which also features, of course, Lin Manuel Miranda. And now Moana, working again in collaboration with Mr. Miranda for the new live action adaptation of the film. You'll hear my chat with Thomas Kale after this clip from the film.

[B]

Do you know who you are?

[C]

Stories are true.

[D]

The story has just begun.

[A]

Beyond our reef, an evil darkness has found us.

[B]

Moana, the ocean chose you.

[A]

Find Maui. Restore the heart of Te Fiti and save us all.

[C]

Maui, demigod of the wind and sea,

[D]

hero, hero of men.

[C]

Huh?

[D]

So it goes like this. Maui, shapeshifter, demigod of the wind and sea, hero of men. Ah, women.

[B]

Women too.

[D]

Men and women.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

That's a clip from Moana, I'm delighted to say its director, Thomas Kael is with us on the show. Hello, Thomas.

[B]

How are you?

[D]

I'm very well. How are you?

[A]

I'm good. Thank you for talking to us on the show today. I love the set that we have here. I feel as though I'm almost on one of your islands.

[D]

Well, we got your email, so we wanted to.

[B]

Really?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, we wanted to make sure that happened.

[A]

Absolutely. Tell us how you got involved with this. I mean, in many ways, you were the obvious person to pick, but how did you get involved with this film in the first place?

[D]

So in 2014 15, when I was working on Hamilton alongside Lin Manuel, he would disappear every now and then up into his dressing room, and I would be out in the house and I'd say, has anyone seen Lin? And then I'd go up there and I'd hear him, you know, banging on the Keyboard. I was like, lin, that's not our show. He's like, I know, I know. He was writing Moana at the same time he was writing Hamilton.

[A]

That must be very annoying.

[D]

Well, he's a dear friend, but I do like it when he finishes the work. The problem is he was kind of done with Hamilton at that point. So I guess he was doing both homework assignments. But he would grab the Hamilton cast members and have them do demos. So I just. I heard it along the way. You know, we were just kind of. We're together all the time. I obviously had nothing to do with that original film other than I bought a ticket and cheered when I sat in the theater. And then. And all these years later, when the opportunity came up, I actually didn't hear about it first from Lyn. Someone from Disney reached out to me, and Lyn was excited that they were talking to me and I guess hadn't said too many terrible things when I wasn't in the room. And then I sat down with Duane in March of 2023. So a little more than three years ago. And that was my first time meeting Duane. And it felt in those first few minutes, we were on the same frequency in terms of what we're interested in doing. I'm someone who comes from the theater, and the great Peter Brook talked about how making theater is like writing messages in the melting snow. And so I've made some stuff that's lasted for a while, and I've made some stuff that went away after a weekend, but eventually it all goes away. And there was something about this opportunity to make something that was lasting and could endure with this story with human beings that really made me sit up straight. I was very interested in that idea and the notion that we could have this kind of transposition again. Because I work in the theater, the idea of doing a revival where text is the same or similar, but the interpretation of it is what allows it to be new and fresh. It was really, you know, it's how I grew up. I mean, I grew up both watching them, and I've made a few of those, you know, in my career. And it just. I don't know, it felt like a new mountain to climb. I'm someone. If I dig a big hole and everyone says, good, go dig another hole. I was like, no, I think I'm gonna go swim. And then I go. I go swim, and I go diving. And they go, great. Seems like you're pretty good at diving. Do you wanna dive again? I was like, I think I'm Actually gonna go see if I can break that rock. I don't really. I don't wanna do the same thing twice. I tell a lot of the same stories in different places. I think I'm chasing the same thing. And this story had a lot of that, too. Who are you? What if the thing that you think you are is different or dissonant from what's inside of you? What do you leave behind? And what happens within a family and a community if it starts to change and you don't know where you fit in? I mean, those things are sort of rife throughout the stuff that I've made.

[A]

So when you'd had the conversation with Dwayne Johnson, do you call Lyn then? Or do you call. Or at what stage do you say, hey, they're asking me?

[D]

Well, I mean, and I don't know that it's every day, but Lyn and I talk probably about 500 to 700 times a year. So some days it's three times, some days it's none. But Lin and I are in constant conversation. So Lin was tracking my movements on the way to the meeting, so he was very aware of what was going on. And so I talked to him within 30 minutes after the meeting.

[A]

So you can follow your iPhone.

[D]

He's got one of those tracking things, actually. I think it's in my ankle now. He must have put it there at some point during the Heights. But, yeah, I just talked to him, and then I also said, and however this works out, I really am someone. I really just enjoy the conversation about the possibility of making something. And sometimes the world says, yes, you can do it, and sometimes someone else makes it. But it was really nice to get to meet a fellow traveler. I mean, one of the beauties of this business is that you can bump into people you've never met. I don't know that on lots of bingo cards, you'd have Dwayne Johnson and Tommy Kail, necessarily. But when we started talking, I thought, oh, he's just been in that part of the forest, and I've been in this one. But we've been after a lot of the same things, and this movie felt like a chance to converge.

[A]

Can I ask you about casting of Moana?

[D]

Of course.

[A]

Because obviously that's so crucial. And I was thinking about how to ask this, and then I came up in the lift this morning with Moana.

[D]

Did you really? Yes.

[A]

So that's a kind of take your breath away moment. So just explain how. How long it took you to find her an engaging Process, I'm sure. But tell us how you found her.

[D]

Can you even believe that she exists? I mean, she's 19 years old now. I met her when she was 16. She submitted a tape. There were 32,000 people that put their hands up to try to put them.

[B]

How many?

[D]

How many? 32,000.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And I saw a tape that had come through. Our casting director on this. I've worked with for years and years, Bernie Telsey and Tiffany. And they've known me long enough to know, I mean, all the way back to in the Heights. And, I mean, I've done probably, I don't know, a lot of things, 10 things with them. I don't want to know. I don't want any spin on the ball. If you're putting folks in front of me, that means that you obviously think there's something there, but don't tell me who. Your. Like, that's not interesting to me. And I don't want to have anything when I watch. So, you know, I sat down on my computer and I pressed Play, and she was singing How Far I'll Go, and the hair on the back of my neck stood up. And I thought, oh, I've had this feeling before. I've had this feeling when I met Dobby Diggs or. Or Pippa sue or Leslie Odom.

[B]

That's a useful tool to have.

[D]

Yeah, well, you know, it's a biological reaction. It is a biological reaction. And I think that there's something. There's something about getting older where you're able to quiet out the static and really listen to what the transmission is. And I've. One of my favorite things is when you get to see something before the world has seen it. And I've had the. The great honor of having this happen to me with some folks where I've been in a little rehearsal room, and I had a feeling that when you put that in front of a group of people, something was gonna happen. And when I first saw Katharine Singh and I saw her storytelling and I saw the light in her eyes and I saw the way that she approached it. This was, again, a tape. This was before I'd said anything to her. I saw what her instincts and her impulses were. I just thought, can we set. She was in Sydney and I was in New York. I said, I'd like to zoom with her because I wanna now see in between those elements. And then we started talking, and I thought, oh, she's gonna look at Dwayne and go, I got you. That's fine. I just Thought there was no blinking. She was both bold and also empathetic. And her sense of humor was kind of sly. She's the seventh of eight kids, so you can't really put one passed on her. And she was unafraid. And then she came to New York about four or five months later, and she walked in the room and everything we hoped to be true was confirmed. And I think when you're about to make something of any size and scale, you wanna really be breathing the. And so obviously that was the next logical step. And I mean, I knew it early, and then it was just affirmed, you know, all along the process with her

[A]

is Catherine Laga Aya. Is that how you say it?

[D]

Langa Aya.

[A]

So. But she has to do. She has to be a particular. Not only does she have to be the woman that we've seen in the original show, but she has to fill the screen and she has to be fearless. But there's still the Disney princess thing, which she has to be as well. And she has to sound amazing when she's singing. That's a lot of qualities that she has to hear.

[D]

Well, yeah, I mean, she's in Edge. She's the daughter of the chief. And so what, you know, is there's gonna. There's something that's to come along with that. So she has to. Technically, she has to act, she has to sing, she has to dance, she has to swim, she has to be underwater doing things. She has to be interacting with animals both there and not there. She has to be opposite Dwayne Johnson. She has to be opposite, you know, the rest of this company. She has to be in front of 200 people in 100 degree weather in the village that we set up. It's almost an impossible thing that anybody could do that. And in fact, I said to Catherine many times, I said, you were in high school six months ago. The distance from high school to this is a steeper climb than you will ever have to make in this business, because anything you do after that, you've had the high altitude training of making this film, which asks all of you. And again, and we said this not glibly. You can say you're doing Moana, but until you cast Moana, you're not doing Moana. You have no chance. And then we met her and we had a chance. She gave us a chance to do that. And, you know, she's in basically every inch of this movie too. I mean, this is not someone who comes in for 20 days of shooting. You know, this is Someone who's there day in and day out. And I just. And I watched her much like the character. Cause we started shooting chronologically in the Village, so we did all that early stuff first. And we weren't always chronological, but we did start there. So everything. When she's finding herself, Am I. Could I singing how far I'll go? That was the first 12, 15 days of shooting. And I think that you feel some of her evolution throughout the course.

[A]

So we came out of the lift, and I followed her and her entourage down the corridor to where you're filming. And as soon as she saw the poster, she said, oh, I'm home.

[D]

So she knew, don't make me cry in front of people.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Interestingly, that's okay. We just came from Sydney, which is her hometown, and I said it was both a homecoming and a coming out. Like watching that country put their arms around her was quite profound for me. And as we were flying together to London, I said, have you been here before? She said, yeah, I went once in high school, right before I started this three years ago. I mean, the fact that the last time she stepped on this soil, that's who she was. And now she comes back and says, I am home in that regard, is moving, and she's really special.

[A]

Was there a moment in the filming and the creation of this movie when you thought, okay, it's now its own thing? Of course, there was the original text, but where it sort of became its own movie, you know?

[D]

Yes. And I think it was initially for us, because when you're standing in the Village and you're standing around 10 fale and 200 Polynesian actors, and it's really 100 degrees or 40 degrees, I think, if I'm getting that right. Someone's had a lot of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You realize you're doing something that has never existed, even if the text is the same, even though this original film, which we love just as much as everybody else, is our guide and our blueprint, seeing those bodies move choreographically, there's a moment in where you are where Moana sings for the first time. So here I'll stay. And seeing the work that Tiana and the choreographer, you know, had sort of laid on to this company, you know, you just. You felt something. And, you know, and seeing Catherine at the tip of this triangle out in front, you know, just stepping into that moment and her seamlessness and her confidence there, was really something to behold. So that was a moment that was, you know, day three of shooting. Yeah.

[A]

Do you Think there's an extent to which Disney live action films get judged before anyone has seen them.

[D]

Well, I don't. I mean, I don't judge them. I will say there's certainly people, because of their affection for the original, that want to make sure that something was honored. And so I understand that. And we approach this, again, not afraid of what we were doing, but trusting what we were doing. And, you know, the reality is this. You know, this film existing in this way, the way it celebrates and memorializes culture. To be back with Lynn's music and to be with this score and these characters, you know, to quote Catherine, it feels like going home, both for me and I think for so many of us. I think that's what this movie means. That's why it's stayed with people. That's why these songs have been in people's heads for 10, 11 years now. Because it, you know, song gets inside of you and it transports you. It takes you back. It's like that moment in Ratatouille when the critic eats the food, right. That moved me deeply when I saw that the first time.

[A]

That's a great sequence.

[D]

Cause that's it, right? Like it's Grandma. He tasted that and he was back with his grandma. Whatever life had meant up until that point. And you get away from that and it connects you. And I think music does the same thing.

[A]

There is a moment at the end of most films actually now, where there's a line in the credits that says, no part of this film may be used by AI or to train AI and so on. Is your approach to AI as a creator and a producer and a director and a musician as well, is it a useful tool or is it a creative threat?

[D]

I mean, I see these conversations as they evolve, and I would like to continue to illuminate and be educated on this. I heard that Steven Spielberg is going on like a summer long learning about AI So he can answer the question. I heard him say that. Which I was like, oh, yeah, there is an opportunity to deep dive coming out of the other side of this. I think the idea of using something as a tool to support human invention and human creation is interesting to me. I will say, like, when we made our final crawl, you know, the credits, I asked our post supervisor, I said, how many people are credited on this film? And she said, it's 2,944. 2,944 human beings made this movie. Wow. Those shots that you see of Taka were made by an artist. They were made by somebody that were created that one shot. They might have worked on that one shot for months and months and months, hundreds of iterations. And that's not an exaggeration. And so when I think about that as a responsibility that I was able to work on something that provided work and sustenance for Families for 2,944 people over this process, of the three years of making it, Films are made by. By real people and real people doing jobs, from catering and laundry to creating VFX shots, to driving trucks. These are people working. And those skills are ones that I wanna celebrate, that we can come together and make something.

[A]

But Dwayne Johnson's wig is real and not special effects.

[D]

That is a real wig. And I asked if I could wear it today, but he said no.

[A]

Thomas Kail, a privilege to speak to you. Thank you very much indeed for your time.

[D]

I appreciate it. Thank you for your questions. This was fun.

[A]

Thomas Kail talking about Moana. I hadn't met him before, but we had a good time. And it was all. It was a fantastic start, too, because you're in the hotel for about half an hour, 40 minutes to just go in the lift and then this entourage appear with Moana in the middle of. It was. I thought, okay, this is. This is a good way to start the day.

[B]

I think should also say that we didn't hear it then, but at the very beginning of the interview, he says, tommy. And you say, I'm not Thomas. He said, no, Tommy. He says, but if you put it on the post and then it's Thomas. But he was. He was very much Tommy, wasn't he?

[A]

Well, in. When I was doing the. Doing the prep for. Felt as though it was both, but it's a bit. So when I did the Christopher Nolan interview, I call him Sir Christopher at the beginning, and then afterwards you become more casual, a bit like your majesty. And then whatever it is, you have to move into, you know? So it was. It just. It's on all the blurb. It talked about Thomas Kael. Yes.

[B]

Because that is his name. That is his name, yeah.

[A]

So if he wants to be Tommy, then that's fine. But I went with the given name as I had it on the sheet of paper.

[B]

So let me leap in here because I kind of feel that I was very pointedly, backhandedly cited in that. I don't think so. No. Okay, so this is live action remake of the 2016 animated adventure Moana. Last year, or whenever it was. Yeah, it was last year, we had a live action version of how to Train youn Dragon, in which the beefiest character who was voiced in the animated version by Gerard Butler was played in the live version by Gerard Butler. And we sort of said, isn't it funny that Gerard Butler in real life actually looks like Stoic the Vaast? So now we have a live action version of Moana in which the beefiest character who's voiced in the animation by Dwayne the Rock Johnson is played in the live version by Dwayne the Rock Johnson, who also produces and is very much the sort of driving force. And we're all going, isn't it amazing how much Dwayne Johnson actually looks like the animated character? You've also got Jermaine Clement back as the giant villainous treasure hoarding crab. Now, factual stuff first. This is the latest in Disney's ongoing mission to extend the sell by date of their back catalogue by, I have to say, largely pointlessly, remaking all their animations with, in inverted commas, real people, albeit real people in inverted commas augmented by enough CG and special effects that, you know, what actually is live and what is animation is becoming increasingly blurred. I was having a conversation with a. A critic friend of mine on the way out because we were talking about the animation of the sea. One of the things I talked about when I was talking about the film the first time around was the way in which the sea was done was fantastically. And of course, actually when the sea opens and all that stuff, there's a huge amount of animation in it. There's a huge amount of animation with the, with the monsters. So the breakdown between live action and animation, I mean, if you see Avatar, you're effectively watching an animated film that happens to have real people in it. Anyway, anyway, so this is directed by TV and theater graduate Tommy to his friends Cale. And you asked him in that interview very pointedly, do you think that these live action remakes get prejudged by critics? And he, in his reply also, which is a very generous reply, but also quite pointedly cited Anton Ego from Ratatouille, who is the critic in Ratatouille, who does the thing with. I mean, I know he cited him in the context of the bit when he has the thing which takes him back into his past. Okay, but so you were both doing that. So I think it is hard, nay, impossible to improve on the original animated Moana, which I remember when it came, I raved about it. I mean, I thought the whole thing, you know, this Polynesian teenager's quest to save her homeland, it's got Eye watering visuals. It's got earworm songs, it's got this heart swelling message about respecting the past and hoping for the future. And it's got all those mad scenes in it. The scene with the kakamora pirates, you know, the ships look like something out of Mad Max. And then the whole thing with the, with the fire, fiery lava thing, which I mean, I remember because the BBFC certificate was PG for mild threat. You're going, that's mild threat. It's absolutely terrifying. So, you know, all of that is back here and, and is as animated as it was before. But I went back to my written review of Moana, my observer review of it, and I finished that review with the following. I'm gonna quote myself, but there's a point to it because it's kind of self reflexive. I said, this film is an animated fantasy. But as 2016 comes to a close, one could be forgiven for wishing it was real. Now you know that expression, be careful what you wish for. So what I actually meant was the way things were in 2016, you know, you wish the story of this thing was real, but I wished for a real version of it and you know, like becoming a real boy. It is now in inverted commas, real. And I will say this, of all the pointless Disney live action remakes, and bearing in mind what I've said about live action and animation are very close together anyway, this is the best. And I was trying to figure out why as I was watching it, because I really enjoyed myself watching it, okay? And I thought it's a number of things. Firstly, the story and the songs are indestructible in just the same way that the songs of ABBA are indestructible in Mamma Mia. There is something that is so hardwired into the very essence of the Moana story that it would be hard to mess it up. And this doesn't, and it doesn't even come close to messing it up. In response, when you said to Thomas, Tommy to his friends, you were asking him about this thing about how do you tell a story again that's been so successful. And he said, well, when it comes to theater, you're always basically doing another version of a story. That's what it is. And he said, I tell a lot of the same stories in different places. Which I thought was a very sort of smart phrase. And then he went on to say that the point is it's to do with the key themes being universal. Who are you? What if the thing you think you are is different or dissonant, what happens when you're in a family and you don't fit in. And those are fairly indestructible, timeless themes. So put broadly, this does no harm to the original. And more importantly, it is often almost as enjoyable as the original. Almost. It does help that Dwayne Johnson in the flesh is. I mean, for a start, I love Dwayne Johnson. I mean, I just think he can do no wrong. He's fantastic. And you see him in the flesh and you go, that's it. You are like a cartoon character, but real. Because he's so, you know everything. I mean, he's an incredible physical performer. He's a really physical performer. But that really helps. It also helps that Catherine Logaia, who's. Oh, I hadn't realized, so she's the daughter of Jay, who's actually a fairly well known actor, has been to Star wars and things is fantastic. And what did he say? 32,000 applications?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you go, I mean, astonishing. And I found his. When he said he had that biological reaction to someone appearing on the screen, he's fantastic.

[B]

Well, no wonder, because she's great. I mean, she is really good. And I don't know how, I mean, these figures. I don't know what you would do with 32,000 applicants. I mean, I presume most of them don't even get past the application stage. But they found the right person, so they already had the right person in the form of Dwayne Johnson, who as I said, is kind of the driving force anyway. And then she's terrific. She's got a great presence, she's got great voice. She's really. And he had this biological reaction. And against my better judgment and the prejudging which you sort of cited in the interview, I laughed and I cried and I thought, okay, it's working. Now. Does it top the original? No. Does it undercut it? No. I'm doing the thing which you hate. I'm asking myself questions. Interviewing yourself. I'm interviewing myself, like everyone. Do we need it? Absolutely not. Did I enjoy it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And will other people enjoy it? Yes, they will. And honestly right now that I think matters more than anything. So against all my inherent grumpiness and my fundamental belief that you don't need to remake these animations in live action, I thought it was pretty good.

[A]

Well, I'm glad you. I'm glad you liked it. And it occurred to me that I was the perfect person to go and do this interview because I have never seen the original. No, never. Seen the original because it's like when your kids, it depends how old your kids are. You, you either watch it like a thousand times as the redactor has, because kids are of that age. But if, if I had no reason to see, if there wasn't an interview to go with it, then I would have missed it. So I missed the original Moana. So this is my first time seeing it on the big screen.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I just picking up on the point that he made towards the end that obviously the AI conversation is going to be a part, it's going to be with us forever. And every movie now has that line and every audiobook has that line. But that's an incredible number of people. 29, 44 people are credited on this film and earned hopefully a decent wage working on this movie, which obviously has got some computers and everything involved in it. And as he said, he needs to learn a lot more. And if Spielberg needs to go away and learn a lot more, then obviously we all do. But that's a lot of people. It is real people making a real film.

[B]

And also the film will be seen by a lot of people buying real, real tickets to go to real cinemas. So as you have always said, regardless of what any critic thinks of anything, anything that get, that gets people into cinemas is a good thing. So, yeah, thumbs up reluctantly.

[A]

[e-mail] and now, with a great sense of liberation, we step into our gaudy laughter lift.

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

What a great piece of music. This is the.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Mark, did I tell you about our exciting new neighbor here in showbiz North London?

[B]

No.

[A]

He's made an absolute fortune in supplying technology like ice boxes, chiller cabinets and the like to homes and restaurants.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

He's a fridge magnet. Oh, and I should tell you, Mark, things aren't going quite so well at home again. Okay, I suppose you're not going to be surprised to hear, but the good lady ceramicist Heron Doors says that I don't respect her privacy. At least that's what it says in her diary. Anyway, so she got really angry and she said, and another thing. Please, will you stop your incessant Monty Python references. Please don't tell me again that my mother was a hamster and my father smelt of elderberries. Don't do that ever again. Seems reasonable enough. Will this be a five minute argument or the full half hour? I said, hey, and I was out the house. What's still to come? Mark, as far as you're aware, Evil Dead burn. Next, An email from John In London. Dear Clownfish and Blue Tang, after hearing your discussion about older French films often ending with the simple fin and not le fan, which we haven't had explained just yet, I couldn't help but think of a rather jarring end card used in the Swedish version of Finding Dory. Following the film's emotional climax, the camera pulls back from Marlin and Dory to reveal the vast empty ocean. Thomas Newman's beautiful score perfectly captures the journey of love, love, family and companionship that we've just experienced. Then one word fades into view. It's the Swedish equivalent of the end. And the word is in English, slut. Pronounced in Swedish, sloot. There it is. There is the end card.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And wow. So it's pronounced sloot. And on trains, before you get to the. I look this up up. Before you get to the final stop, it often says slut station, sloot station. So that's where you're going to end up anyway. So thank you very much. Yes, that would be slightly off putting and judgmental. John. Thank you. Correspondence.com. what else is out? You've mentioned Evil Dead Burn, I think.

[B]

Yeah. Evil Dead Burn. Latest Evil Dead outing. Directed and co written by Sebastian Vanicek, Produced by Bob Tapper and. And Sam Raimi. So this follows Fede Alvarez's Evil Dead and Lee Cronin's Evil Dead Rise. So it's either the sixth film in the series or the third film in the reboot chapters, depending on what you're sort of counting as year zero. So the taglines, every family has its demon, has its demons. And also family is the root of all evil. Good taglines.

[A]

Yes, very good.

[B]

Shame about the rest of it. So the official setup up for Evil Dead Burn is following the death of a mother's son. A family comes together in a secluded house. The gathering becomes a family reunion from hell as members gradually turn into Deadites. Here is a clip from the trailer. William, my sweet boy, I would give

[C]

anything for us to be together again.

[B]

Our grandfather believed the devil would return.

[A]

If anyone read from the Book of the Dead, Kunda,

[D]

The whole family can be reunited. Wow.

[B]

You get the general idea. Yes, I do. So just to get, you know, it gets up to speed. So because I have a great love of and affection for Evil Dead. So the very first Evil Dead movie was cut by the bbfc, was then released on video. It was hauled through the court on obscenity charges. The bbfc, the first reports when they first saw it, one of the examiners felt that they had been physically assaulted by the film and was just appalled by it. Furman, James Furman, who was then head of the bbsc, understood that it was a comedy and actually I think would probably have been all right with passing it uncut. But it got impounded under the OPA before the introduction of the Video Recordings act and it got some section two things. It famously went to court in Snaresbrook where they won a case against it, arguing that it actually wasn't obscene, but because it was impounded with a bunch of other things and it got tied up with the ipa, which is kind of ridiculous because it is a comedy. I mean, it was always described by Sam Raimi as the Three Stooges with blood and guts for custard pies. So Then Evil Dead 2 upped the budget and clarified the comedy. I mean, basically it revisited the original set pieces in slightly more spectacular fashion, but clarified much more than it was a comedy. Army of Darkness, which is Evil Dead 3, dropped the ball completely. Series should have ended there, which it sort of did for a while. And then returns from the Grave, Fede Alvarez's Evil Dead, which sort of stripped away the comedy and played things with a kind of fairly straight post torture porn bat. And I went back to my review to remind myself what I thought. I said it was nasty, but oddly and fatally not frightening. An endurance test that somehow lacks the joie de vivre that perversely underwrote the original. Then you had Evil Dead Rise, which spam in a cabin of the original becomes Dismemberment in a Tenement, which is kind of in a cheese gratery sort of way, but again, not scary. And let's never forget that the thing with the first Evil Dead was it was funny, but it was really scary. And maybe you had to be there at the time, but it was really genuinely scary as well as funny. As for this, despite a sort of half hearted attempt to wrap a spousal violence, family dysfunction subtext onto what's essentially a series of wincy set pieces. It's noisy, loud, and I really regret having to say this. I thought it was depressing. I went in at the end of a long day, wanting to be delighted. New Evil Dead movie. Great. It's quite a small cinema, quite close to the screen. You get Evil Dead stuff. And I came out feeling genuinely dispirited. In fact, one of the distributors, God bless them, who I had only ever communicated with on email, came up and introduced themselves to me and said, hi, I'm so. And I said, oh, that's nice. Did you enjoy the film? No.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

And it was as if my longstanding love of horror had been taken away from me and had the sort of life snuffed out of it. I mean, the thing is, it ups the nastiness, but it lacks any of the slapstick fun. That's always been the sort of strongest card of the series. There's way too much plot, there's way too many characters. There's way too little air of celebration. The main problem is the palette of the film. Film is ugly. It is ugly and grimy and it's closer to that. I mean, I know you're not a horror fan, so you won't have seen a lot of these films, but there was a point when the torture porn thing was happening, which was a phrase that one should only ever use in inverted commas like video nasty, in which suddenly every single movie you were watching was a kind of green, gray, brown sludge, looked like kind of rusting feces.

[A]

It just.

[B]

There was just something great. Why?

[A]

I didn't like it exactly. But.

[B]

But the thing is, that wasn't true of the original, which was, like, bold and colorful and particularly Evil Dead 2. Now, occasionally you do get shots that specifically quote the signature shot from Evil Dead in which, because they didn't have a Steadicam, they got a camera and put it on the end of a. Put it on the middle of a plank of wood and they ran through the woods doing that with a plank of wood. So you get these incredible shots of, like, rushing along. It's like very, very shonky Steadicam. And those shots were the things that sort of defined the Evil Dead. Now, you do get those shots here, and you also get a kind of physical visceral. Visceral kind of oomph to it all. But the weird thing is that all that served to do was remind me how much more fun it was when I saw these shots done. Probably worse, because they were, you know, sort of done much more on the fly and yet with a sense of joy. And it's. I mean, the violence that. The on screen violence is wincy. I mean, it's, you know, it's fish hooks in the face and it's razors and things being stuck in your ear. And there is an unhealthy and unpleasant amount of licking drool and dribble and faces being pushed into. I mean, as I'm saying, it sounds. It sounds more fun than it is. Not to you, I understand. No, no, no. But, but, but understand that there is a certain. I Mean, I could hear me here saying this and going, oh, well, I want to watch that. Faces pushed into squishy other faces. But it's just generally a bit ucky. On the plus side, it's, you know, some of the. Some of the direction has a kind of anarchic physicality and, you know, sense of bodies being smashed this way and that and, you know, the gravity going, you know, a bit inceptiony and spider walky, but none of that made me feel any sense of joy. And I think the thing is that outside of a few set pieces, I mean, there is one thing with an old woman and a Stanner stairlift, which is quite funny. I mean, that is a gag. It is a gag set piece, but for most of it, it doesn't have any of the nimble wit of the Evil Dead. It just has this sort of sense of lumbering nastiness. And I found myself. I mean, it's funny because the poster evokes Drag Me to Hell or, you know, Send help. I mean, both of which had a real sense of fun to them. This just wants to be headbanging. And I found myself getting bored and I found myself getting increasingly annoyed that it wasn't entertaining me. And I would. I was, you know, you just kept thinking in the original, there's that brilliant scene in which a character literally with. With white eyes goes, we're gonna get you. And it's really terrifying. And in this, everyone's just yelling and screaming and it's, you know, the original was terrifying and hilarious.

[A]

And this is neither [e-mail] if you see that, or any of the other films that we're talking about. Thank you very much for the Watsons that you're sending in. Some of these are audio, some of them have visual. Let's get to it. And here's Frankie going first. Hi, Frankie. From the Labors of Hercule podcast.

[C]

Here year we're hosting a double bill

[A]

screening of the best Peter Ustinov Poirot films, Death on the Nile and Evil under the sun at Picturehouse Central on Sunday 12th July. There will also be a live podcast recording with special guests. Tickets are on the Picture House website. We'd love to see you there. Thank you, Frankie. Nicely recorded. Very good. Secondly, here's Catherine. Hello, Simon and Mark. It's Catherine here from Dr. Jazz and the Cheshire Cats Big Band. On Saturday 11th July, we're presenting a big band movie music concert at the beautiful art deco Stockport Plaza Cinema with music ranging from the golden age of Rogers and Astaire right up to Whiplash. It will be loads of fun and will be finished before the football starts. Tickets are available from the Stockport Plaza now. Yeah, it's a very good point. Anyone? Because England play their next game on Saturday evening, anyone who's got something planned or big show or something, they're all having to make slight adjustments. Catherine, thank you very much indeed and thanks to Swell Village. More details on our show notes. That's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh and Heather. The producer was Dom and the redactor was Simon Paul in take two. We're directing you to the overflow car park for more chat about current film releases. And if you've enjoyed what you've heard so far, plenty more waiting for you over in take two where we head to the overflow car park for extra reviews. I think I've said this already. And the five question film club plus questions in which this week we're asked what films do I love that Mark hates and why do the lines remain off for the entire credits? Sometimes, but not always. You can get take two ad free along with the full back catalog and the chance to vote on future episodes by signing up to our Patreon. You just search Kermit Mayo Patreon and join the church. Mark, what is your film of the week?

[B]

What do you think it is?

[A]

I think it's going to be Moana.

[B]

It is Moana.

[A]

Boom. And don't forget, people of Bristol. We will be at the Bristol Beacon on December 6th if you can bear to think about Christmas. Tickets are on sale via the link in the show notes. And we'll be back next week with so I'm not here next week, but Ben Bailey Smith will be doing a far better job. Although the interview that I've done with Christopher Nolan that will be going out next week and Mark's review of the Odyssey. Mark has seen the Odyssey. I have seen the Odyssey, so I won't be here to pronounce. And I probably signed a thing that means I can't say anything about it until it comes out.

[B]

I have two, I have two words to say about the Odyssey that I think don't break the embargo.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Samantha Morton, Can I say Peak Cinema,

[A]

Would that break the embargo?

[B]

I think they'll let you do it.

[A]

Okay, well, that's my review in two words. So that's next week. Mark's review of the Odyssey, Chris Nolan interview. And Ben is going to be here. I will bestow a year's Ultra membership to our Correspondent of the Week, which I will say, let's say, Sarah in Bristol, who will be coming to the show in December and who missed out last time because she'd fallen over and slipped two dishes. So she's had enough pain, so we'll give her a little bit of fun by making her. Giving her a year's Ultra membership. Such joy that we can pass out. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Take two has landed alongside this one.