Brian Cox on GLENROTHAN: will it go down smoothly with Mark?

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take: Brian Cox on GLENROTHAN – Will It Go Down Smoothly with Mark?

Sony Music Entertainment | April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This packed episode of Kermode & Mayo’s Take finds Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo delving into the latest in film and TV, featuring reviews of new releases and a lively, substantial interview with acclaimed actor Brian Cox (“Succession,” “Manhunter”). The main event centers on Cox’s directorial debut, Glen Rothan—a whisky-steeped Scottish family drama. As always, the hosts’ easy banter and enthusiasm keep things buoyant, while listeners get bonus reviews, recommendations, and a top 20 film chart rundown.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dread of Final Drafts and Name Paranoia (03:00-07:30)

• Simon discusses the stresses of submitting a finished manuscript for his latest book, including “the horror of pressing go on the finished proof copy” (Mark Kermode, 04:15).
• They riff on the anxiety that any mistakes are now “the cost of those mistakes will be mine” (Simon Mayo, 03:37).
• Mark recounts the oddity that real people may share seemingly unique names, referencing a documentary about people named “James Bond” (06:03).

2. Film Reviews: Kermode’s Take

a. Father, Mother, Sister, Brother (Jim Jarmusch) (14:45-20:48)

• Mark reviews Jarmusch’s latest portmanteau feature. Structure: Three chapters each focusing on different estranged family units, tied together by a mysterious Rolex watch and themes of hidden lives and family secrecy.
• “It is subtle and quiet and funny and sad. It is also, I have to say, very uneven… The best section for me was the first section.” (Mark, 16:15)
• Mark praises the opening Adam Driver–Tom Waits short, but finds subsequent sections less compelling. He calls it “an incidental work… It’s not up there with his best.” (20:05)
• For Jarmusch fans interested in his melancholy, understated style, but not an essential.

b. Undertone (Ian Tuison) (56:36-66:36)

• “The scariest film you’ll ever hear”—a microbudget Canadian horror, anchored almost entirely by sound and two on-screen actors.
• The plot follows Evie, caring for her comatose mother, recording a podcast about a series of mysterious audio files.
• Mark likens its stripped-down ingenuity to The Blair Witch Project and Host (60:11-61:35).
• He delves into electronic voice phenomena, the psychology of finding order in chaos, and his own eerie experience with audio ambiguity.
• “I thought it was a really effective, creepy, stripped down, single idea, well executed horror movie. And I really enjoyed it.” (Mark, 66:36)

c. Le Tranger (The Stranger) (Francois Ozon) (68:36-77:14)

• Mark summarizes Ozon’s new, black-and-white adaptation of Camus’ existential classic.
• Central philosophical question: Is existential detachment profound or simply immature?
• “Existentialist despair is essentially infantile… There are real things really happening in the world that matter.” (Mark, 74:00)
• Simon concurs: “I found it very well done… but the idea that existentialism means anything or is profound in any way to be ludicrous. That’s what I thought.” (Simon, 77:14)
• They agree Ozon’s update, which gives more agency to Arab characters, is well handled and not simply “wokeism.”

3. Brian Cox Interview: Directing Glen Rothan (35:19-50:52)

Introduction to Cox’s Career (35:19-36:31)

• Simon recaps Brian Cox’s storied career, from theatre to Logan Roy in Succession to his 80s/90s film highlights (Hannibal Lecter in Manhunter, Braveheart, Rushmore, The Bourne Identity, more).

On Directing Glen Rothan (37:03-47:50)

• Cox didn’t set out to direct; the film's origin was a script from David Ashton and producer Neil Zeiger: “I said, ‘Do I not have any say in the matter?’ He said, ‘I’m sure you do, but you’re still directing the film.’” (Cox, 39:40)
• The film is a low-key, music-infused drama about two estranged Scottish brothers (Cox and Alan Cumming) reunited by family business and history.
• Cox’s philosophy: an egalitarian, collaborative approach—he’s “just the guy who says action and cut.”
• The story: Whisky, grudges, lost and regained family. “It’s about the fact I wanted to leave. I never wanted to stay. I wanted to get away. I wasn’t allowed to because my brother left and under a cloud. And he lives under a very difficult situation. So I’m left holding the baby, as it were… and I run it for 40-odd years.” (Cox, 43:01)
• Fun detail: Making and suffering through porridge on set (“my brother’s porridge is porridge. He made it. And then we have to eat it and it's truly horrible,” Cox, 46:27).
• On his outlook: “Filmmaking is a sort of much more embracing thing because of the various skills—like a collective.” (Cox, 50:52)

Notable Quotes

• “It’s essentially about the relationships… whatever you do, you give it the environment, but it's essentially about the relationships.” (Cox, 42:07)
• “I was very nervous… I’m not a concept… I don’t like concept films… so I just thought, well, I’ll just make a simple film.” (Cox, 41:50)

4. Listener Correspondence & Film Club (09:46-14:16, 55:22-56:37)

• Letters on Doctor Who casting—a listener remarks, “What Doctor Who needs is not pre-existing star power, just a really good actor with a few specific talents.” (11:00)
• Quick debate: Would a radio presenter make a good Doctor? (“I think Steve Wright,” Simon, 13:16. “Evan Davis… he’d baffle them with facts and figures,” Mark, 13:43.)
• Catriona writes in to fondly defend 90s Jared Leto as Jordan Catalano, no matter what Mark and Simon say now (55:22-56:20)—earning her the coveted Correspondent of the Week.

5. Top 20 Downloaded Films Chart (25:24-34:13)

• Not box-office, but most-paid downloads: from Jurassic World: Rebirth (20) to Sinners (1).
• Mark and Simon’s typical banter, e.g. "The only word in that [review] I agree with is idiot." (Mark on Jurassic World: Rebirth, 26:49)
• The Ballad of Wallace Island noted as a sleeper hit with indie cinemas.
• Dogma's tagline delight ("Get Touched by an Angel.") and Alanis Morissette as God reminisced.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “The first thing that’s going to happen is… you’re going to open it and a huge mistake is going to leap off the page like the alien bursting out of John Hurt’s stomach.” (Mark, 04:15)
• “Wouldn’t that be great if they chose someone who’s completely unknown [for Doctor Who]? …I just suspect… they need some star power.” (Simon, 13:07)
• “You lose track? I think.” “Which was the best band you’ve been in?” (Simon & Mark, 21:23–21:26)
• “It’s not that we don’t think you’re a good guitarist. We do. We just don’t like you.” (Mark, 22:03)
• “You know, I was in a Travel Lodge the other day, my place of choice, and… they gave me what my mother used to refer to as an ‘old fashioned look.’” (Mark on waiting for lifts, 51:48)
• “How do you invite a dinosaur to dinner if you’re Northern?” – “T-Rex.” (Simon’s Laughter Lift, 52:50)
• “You are literally throwing these jokes into the wood chipper.” (Mark, 54:04)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• Paranoia and Proof Copy Nerves: 03:00
• Jim Jarmusch’s Father, Mother, Sister, Brother Review: 14:45
• Chart Countdown: 25:24
• Brian Cox Introduction & Filmography: 35:19
• Brian Cox on Glen Rothan (in-depth interview): 37:03–50:52
• Undertone (Creepy Audio Horror) Review: 56:36–66:36
• Le Tranger (The Stranger) Review & Existentialism Debate: 68:36–79:43
• Laughter Lift (Jokes + Wood Chipper Metaphor): 51:32–54:08

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Notable Listener Quotes

• On Doctor Who: “What has made each new Doctor magical… has been their freshness and their lack of association with any other character.” — Casey (11:00)
• On Jared Leto: “His next feature could be a three-hour epic of him standing in front of a mirror flexing his pecs… and we would still only see him with floppy hair, leaning against the school lockers in his plaid shirt.” — Catriona (55:22)

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Overall Tone

Banter-heavy, good-natured, blend of deep film analysis and playful ribbing. Mark is thoughtful but droll; Simon keeps the show light and self-deprecating. Brian Cox brings gravitas, humility, and classic Scottish storytelling.

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Summary

This episode is a cinephile treat: a new Jim Jarmusch, the unnerving indie Undertone, and a thoughtful critique of Ozon’s Le Tranger alongside a revealing chat with Brian Cox about creative collaboration and his directorial debut. The regular chart, listener input, and irresistible giggling make for a companionable, substantial listen—for movie fans, TV bingers, and podcast enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark, you know I'm really massive techie, right?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

If you saw me at my local coffee shop in Showbiz North London, you'd probably mistake me for Neo from the Matrix. Without the illegal hacking or sunglasses indoors, obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

What are you talking about? You're having some sort of breakdown? Do you actually even own a computer?

[Simon Mayo]

What I'm talking about, I'm on it now. Talking to you is the transformation my web browsing has been through. Now that I've got NORDVPN on all my devices, I use NORDVPN to keep my online activity safe with encryption, threat protection and dark web alerts to guard against hackers and to secure public WI fi.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, welcome to the future, Simon. I've been doing that for ages. And with one click, NORDVPN can change your device's virtual location so you can access all the things you need when you're abroad.

[Simon Mayo]

Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to nordvpn.com take with our link.

[Mark Kermode]

You'll get an extra four months free on the two year plan and it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description.

[Simon Mayo]

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, a new to MUBI in the UK this March is the brilliant no Other choice from Park Chan Wook. If you're a regular listener of the show, you will have heard me reviewing the film and raving about it. Actually kind of struggling to describe it because it's a black comedy, it's a thriller, it's a social satire, it's about a man whose life starts to fall apart and he takes unreasonable measures to correct things. I was absolutely fascinated by it. I thought it was a terrific film and as I said, it's coming to MUBI in the UK from March 13th.

[Simon Mayo]

You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.comkermodenmayo that's M-U-B-I.com Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[Mark Kermode]

There really is no other choice.

[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get

[Mark Kermode]

an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in Questions?

[Mark Kermode]

You can get all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. Yes, I'm slightly worried that I might come across as paranoid in today's show.

[Mark Kermode]

Hello, Simon.

[Simon Mayo]

Hi. Because you know that moment where, because you, you have this, you have this particularly acutely, I think, paranoia. Yeah, yeah. And the bit where you finally send off a book final.

[Mark Kermode]

Right, yeah, yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

You know, the final transcript with changes. So I just got to that and you know, any mistakes are mine. That, that's the bit that worries me because you, you always have to add that, which everybody does, you know, thanks very much for everyone's been great. Any mistakes are mine.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

And you think, yeah, but the cost of those mistakes will also be mine.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

So I'm just feeling slightly twitchy.

[Mark Kermode]

So have you, have you just sent the proofs or the. Or the manuscript?

[Simon Mayo]

A corrected manuscript is what I'm saying.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine. Listen, that's not. It's fine. You've still got the whole thing of the proof's got to come in. And you know, when the proofs come in, you can change things. It's not like you haven't said goodbye to it. You can change things. You can change things at proof stage. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

It gets increasingly difficult, doesn't it? I realize this is a very nuanced conversation and very elitist conversation, but I'm just explaining if I sound a bit twitchy on the show today. Today. That's why.

[Mark Kermode]

That's all I do. Look, I completely understand this. There is a horrible moment when you finally press go. It used to be that you put it in the post, but now you press go and go. Yes, this is the completed thing. But that is nothing compared to the horror of pressing go on the finished proof copy, which is this is now going from here to the printer and if there's anything wrong, I haven't seen it. And then you know that the first thing that's going to happen is that the finished copy is going to come in, you're going to open it and a huge mistake is going to leap off the page like the alien bursting out of John Hurt's stomach and attach itself to your face and you'll think, why did I not see that?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. My particular concern is some. I've had to obviously create a number of names and I'm afraid I'VE looked them up and I've made sure that there's no one famous by these names, but I'm sure that there is going to be someone who's going to complain and then you wake up at four in the morning and then you get a bill and then you get sued and then you go to prison.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, firstly, you know that's not how it works. Secondly, how you, since you evidently haven't named somebody for somebody else, that it's not, you know, it's like if you call somebody, you know, Theophilus P. Wildey. Well, of course you can't do that because of Lenny Henry. If you come with any name, there's probably.

[Simon Mayo]

There's a.

[Mark Kermode]

Chances are there's somebody in the world out there with that name. There was a. There's a program that I saw recently. It turned out there are still people in the world called Adolf Hitler.

[Simon Mayo]

That seems very strange to me.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, you'd think, right?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. I can't quite believe that. Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

But if you.

[Simon Mayo]

Would you not change it, would you? Not unless they've changed their name to that. Because they.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no. There were people who were named Adolf Hitler. So, you know, there's. I don't know if you remember, there was a brilliant documentary called. I think it was called the Name is Bond and it was a documentary about James Bond and the naming of. The naming of James Bond. There was two things in it. One of them was the fact that Ian Fleming named James Bond after a bloke who wrote a book about birds, whose wife then complained to Ian Fleming and said, you've stolen his name. And Ian Fleming wrote back and said, yeah, you're absolutely right, I'm really sorry. I just thought I did it because it was a bland name and that's what I wanted. And then actually they ended up becoming friends. And then there's another thread in that same documentary about a mother and son who were trying to escape from an abusive father. And all the way through the doc, you can't understand what this has to do with the rest of it. And it turns out in the end that the mother changed the son's name to James Bond because it would make it impossible for the father to find them through the Internet because it is the most popular name.

[Simon Mayo]

That's very smart. Really smart.

[Mark Kermode]

Really smart.

[Simon Mayo]

That name will reappear later in this particular show for various reasons. Anyway, you all right? Just checking your name.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm doing good. We should say for the listeners that we're pre recording this show, it's not A live show.

[Simon Mayo]

It's not a live show.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not a live show. No, but we're pre recording it in advance. And the reason I'm saying that is because we're recording this about 10 days, maybe a week and a half before you'll be hearing it. So it's possible that from our recording it to when you're listening to it, some terrible world event has happened that we're not aware of that's just flagging that up.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. So if we make no reference to that, whatever Armageddon, then it's because it has survived and we're in our own bunker.

[Mark Kermode]

We don't.

[Simon Mayo]

We don't care. Anyway, you're very welcome to take one. And Mark is going to be reviewing these films, which of course.

[Mark Kermode]

So we have Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, which is a new film by Jim Jarmusch. We have Undertone, described as the scariest film you'll ever hear. And we have.

[Simon Mayo]

I like the sound of that.

[Mark Kermode]

That's very good. And the Stranger, Le Tranger, about which we have already spoken to the fabulous. What we calling him? Frankie Ozone.

[Simon Mayo]

Francois Ozone, I think, because we have respect where respect is due, Frankie. Very disrespectful.

[Mark Kermode]

Listen to that interview. But this week our incredibly special guest is Brian Cox.

[Simon Mayo]

The actor, I'm sure.

[Mark Kermode]

The Brian Cox. The Brian Cox.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, the acting Brian Cox. So he's going to be on in a little bit. And in take two, Mark, what are you concerning yourself with?

[Mark Kermode]

In take two we have reviews of California Scheming and also the reissue, the anniversary reissue of Stand By Me.

[Simon Mayo]

Also you get even more of the good stuff, including the Five Question Film Club. Three Questions, you, Majesty, available for you on Patreon. Intros to Heat, the Silence of the Lambs with Nell and I, Heathers and the Elephant Man. And in One Frame Back, the feature that gives you extended viewing for a weekly cinematic release with the release of Glen Roth and Brian Cox, the actor, not the scientist. Being this week's guest, we've been asking for your favorite Brian Cox performances on film or television, of which of course there are very many. So head on over to our patre in if you'd like to join the club. Plus all the other top quality content ad free and in video where you can see Mark in all his glory and me with all my records behind me. And there'll be a questions in which Mark answers this question because he's very much aimed at Mark. I think I might get away with it.

[Mark Kermode]

Go on.

[Simon Mayo]

What would he say if Jared Leto accosted him in the street and told him that the way Mark talks about him is really mean and he's deeply hurt. That would be fun. I'd film that and put it on YouTube. Definitely. No, actually I wouldn't. I'd film it and put it on Patreon as a special. Exactly as subscriber only content correspondence.com Casey says. Dear doctor and companion, very fun to hear your discussion regarding the ideal Doctor casting. Okay, I have what might be an unusual take. I specifically would like the new Doctor to be someone I've never heard of. Okay, this is a very good idea, Casey. By the way, I've been a fan of the show since the middle of the Matt Smith era. Oh, talking about Doctor who, not this program when I was 11 or 12. What has made each new Doctor magical to me has been their freshness and their lack of association with any other character. I was unfamiliar with Peter Capaldi and Capaldi, you'll correct me again. I was unfamiliar with Peter Capaldi and Jodie Whittaker prior to their respective eras. When Nakuti Gatwa was cast, I had seen Sex Education, but I deliberately refrained from going back and re watching it for the same reason. I don't think what Doctor who necessarily needs is pre existing star power. Just a really good actor with a few specific talents. Talents about which I think Mark was spot on. There are plenty of relatively unknown actors who can absolutely pull that off. It's just a matter of finding them. The role is starry enough and will lift any with the right talents to stardom, provided that they rise to the challenge. And along the way, a newcomer gets to have their big break. Warm regards to the supremely talented production team, down with the Nazis. Love the show, Steve, H2JI, etc. Thank you, Casey. The only problem with that is, I mean, you're completely correct. Wouldn't that be great if they chose someone who's completely unknown is that they need, you know, the casting. They want someone with a profile or someone who has follows on Instagram or someone that gets people excited when it. When it's announced. Can you imagine them going for a complete unknown?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I mean, it's interesting that you hadn't seen anything by Peter Capaldi or Jodie Whitaker, because obviously they both had very storied careers before then. I mean, certainly when I was a kid, I'd never heard of Patrick Troughton. I'd never heard of John Pertwee, I'd never heard of Tom Baker. I'd never heard of David Tennant. Before David Tennant. Did you know who David Tennant was before he got cast?

[Simon Mayo]

Good question. Don't know, can't remember.

[Mark Kermode]

I don't have an awareness of it. I mean, I confess I also didn't have an awareness of Matt Smith, but I'm pretty certain I only knew David Tennant when he was doing Doctor who as Doctor who. So he didn't come with any bag. He didn't come with oath that they've cast this famous person. Actually, as I remember, Billy Piper was more famous than David Tennant at that point. And certainly Bernard Cribbins.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I think all of that is true. I just suspect that given that Doctor who has to fight for its place, for funding and commissioning and all that kind of stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

They need some star power.

[Mark Kermode]

Have they asked you?

[Simon Mayo]

Now, that would make no sense at all.

[Mark Kermode]

You're a doctor. Yeah, but they're.

[Simon Mayo]

But I'm a fake doctor. I'm a showbiz doctor.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, that's what they want. They want a showbiz doctor. It's not real. You do know that, don't you? It's not real.

[Simon Mayo]

Which radio presenter would make the best Doctor who? I think Steve Wright. I think I would go for Michelle Hussein. I think she'd be very good.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay. Interesting. Cool. I just think, you know, Evan Davis.

[Simon Mayo]

Evan Davis, he would be amazing because then he could interrogate and he'd baffle them with facts and figures and his law and his understanding of economics. And he wears crazy gear as well. So I think Evan is the.

[Mark Kermode]

But you don't think. Righty. Arriving on Gallifrey and going, gallifrey's here. Not Gallifrey. Doctor's here. Doctor's here.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, because.

[Mark Kermode]

Right. He used to do that. He used to arrive in a room and go, right, he's here.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. I mean, there's a slight problem with.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I know, I understand. But it's Doctor who, so, you know, we. It's, you know, regenerative.

[Simon Mayo]

Still think there's a slight problem.

[Mark Kermode]

All right, Casey, thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

It's a very interesting idea. Anyway, if anyone from Doctor who wants to get in touch, we'd be very interested to. To get an exclusive. If you can hear a slight rumble, by the way, that isn't the Armageddon that we're afraid of missing. It's a wood chipper that's in the road and there's nothing I can do about it.

[Mark Kermode]

How many chips would a wood chip chip. If a woodchip wood chip would.

[Simon Mayo]

It's very Good. Well remembered. Is there an answer to that?

[Mark Kermode]

No. And anyway, it's Chuck, isn't it? It's how many Chucks?

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, what's new and what's out there? And what's interesting.

[Mark Kermode]

Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, which is the new film by Jim Jamusch, chaptered stories of. With estranged familial links, but which, like Night on Earth, these different stories play out in different towns, different countries. So the us, Dublin, Paris. So in the first chapter, father Jeff and Emily, played by Patterson, star Adam Driver and Maim Bialik, travel to visit their estranged father, played by Down By Law star Tom Waits. And they think he's not doing so well because the house also appears to be a shambles. And Adam Driver's character has obviously been helping him out financially for a long time. He doesn't understand how he can get by on just the pension, so they spend some time with him. But turns out he's doing better than they imagined. Here's a clip from the first chapter of the film.

[Simon Mayo]

Shall I be Mother?

[Mark Kermode]

You might as well start sometime.

[Molly Sims]

Aren't you glad we had such unconventional parents?

[Brian Cox]

And I've always been my favorite son. Well, you're only son.

[Mark Kermode]

I do like that joke. You'll always be my favorite son. I'm your only son. You also heard a little bit of that from chapter two. Cause that was a clip from the trailer. So in the second chapter, mother Charlotte Rampling, that was her voice you heard, is the mother who has arranged an impressive tea for the annual visit from her daughters, Timothy and Lilith, played by Cate Blanchett and Vicky Creeps. Lilith is playing the role of this thrillingly successful social mover. And the Uber she arrives in is actually a car driven by a friend. And the stories of her success are increasingly bogus and she's obviously putting on an act. And then in the third chapter, Sister, Brother sky and Billy, played by India Moore and Luca Sabat, are reunited in Paris after their parents have died in an air crash. And the housekeeper Landel tells them that they died owing three months rent, but they've prevented the seizure of their belongings. And in each of these three tales, there is a Rolex watch makes an appearance that seems to point to a hidden life, a deception, a crack in what everyone knows about their family. So the whole thing has got this kind of a sort of slightly melancholic sense of mystery about how little parents and adult children actually know of each other's lives. You know, do you really know what's going on in your mum and dad's lives. Do they really know what's going on in your lives? There was an interview when Jim Johnish was putting the film together, and he described it as very subtle, very quiet, funny and sad. And it is all of those things. It is subtle and quiet and funny and sad. It is also, I have to say, very uneven. The best section for me was the first section, which effectively constitutes a sort of melancholic short film with a brilliantly barbed sting in the tale. And if it had been a standalone short in which, you know, Adam Driver goes to visit Tom Waits and dad clearly isn't doing very well, or is he? That would have been, you know, great. The second section, the Charlotte Rampling, Cate Blanchett, Vicky creep section, is good, but it's rather less credible. It feels much more theatrical. There's a lot of overhead shots of the table which Charlotte Rampling has arranged. And I'm not sure that I bought the whole deception about the daughter who appears to be not doing as well as she's saying. And then the final section, which is the longest and honestly the most overtly profound and probably the most truthful, is also, weirdly enough, probably the least engaging. Now, the fact that any sectioned movie is uneven is not surprising. I mean, actually, it applies to all of Jim Jarmish's portmanteau films, if you. I mean, Night on Earth. Obviously, Mystery Train has. Some bits are better than others. There's that thing, Coffee and Cigarettes. Coffee and Cigarettes is a feature, but Coffee and Cigarettes started as a. So it started. There was a short in the. In the late 80s or mid 80s. 86. And then there were two subsequent shorts in like, 89. And then I think another one was in the 90s. And then it gets anthologized in 2003. And there's 11 segments, actually, one of which I, if I remember rightly, features Cate Blanchett. But again, there are individual segments that I like, but I'm not sure that the whole pulls together. Although, you know, Jarmusch himself seems to love an anthology film. I have to say, in the great pantheon of Jim Jarmusch films, this isn't up there with Stranger Than paradise or down by Law. Down by Law, which I just still. I have always. When I was in the Braille town bottlers, my friend Ollie, at the drop of a hat would go, zack, Jack, Zack, Bob. How you say I look at the window, I look through the window. Or in fact, more recently, Paterson.

[Simon Mayo]

And was that funny in the back?

[Mark Kermode]

It was funny, yeah. It was very, very Funny. It was very hilarious. It was very, very hilarious. Particularly when I would finish that quote by going, well, in this case, Bob, I think you'd have to say, you look out the window. But it's an incidental work. I mean, but that may be the point. I mean, that thing when Jarmusch says it's very, very quiet, it is also very incidental. It's got a. It's got kind of a nice tone to it. I've never. I've never met a Jar Much film I didn't like. I just thought this was like, okay, it's fine. It's a kind of holding pattern, but it's. It's. It's not up there with his best work. But if you. If you want something that just sort of washes over you and has got a very, very good opening. 40 minutes with Tom Waits.

[Simon Mayo]

How many bands you've been in?

[Mark Kermode]

How many bands have I been in?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, have you never. Have you never read my fantastic biography, Simon autobiography? How Does It Feel? A Life of Musical Misadventures, in which I think I must have been in about 25 bands or 35 bands. Okay.

[Brian Cox]

Why?

[Mark Kermode]

Why?

[Simon Mayo]

Good.

[Mark Kermode]

Many, Many.

[Simon Mayo]

You mentioned the.

[Mark Kermode]

The.

[Simon Mayo]

The Rail Town Butlers. Yes, you mentioned before. I just think I lose track of the bands that you've been in. And. Yeah, I've got a copy of that book, you know, it's a long time since I read it, I think, and I lose track of all them.

[Mark Kermode]

You lose track? I think.

[Simon Mayo]

Which was the best band you've been in?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I'm thinking. So there was the Tigers, the Vibros, the Basics, Fifth Incident, Border Incident, I think. Oh, Bragg in the middle there. Botlers, Henry. 100 herpes. 100 hopeless. Many, many, many, many.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, that's 12, but. But that's only got you up to me being 20. I'm 63.

[Simon Mayo]

Are you a splitter, then? Is it like the bands. The bands are all fine and then you join and it all.

[Mark Kermode]

They all fall apart? Yes, that's pretty much it. When I got thrown out of the Vibroge at that point were called the Vibrogues, they said to me, it's not that we don't think you're a good guitarist. We do. We just don't like you.

[Simon Mayo]

Wow. Could you not just have been a bad guitarist?

[Mark Kermode]

The thing was, I was a bad guitarist. That was the other thing as well. Well.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, they went on to achieve nothing, so.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, exactly. You. And look at you.

[Simon Mayo]

Look at you now.

[Mark Kermode]

Look at me now.

[Simon Mayo]

Have they played in Sun Studios. I suspect they probably haven't. No, suck on that is what Mark is saying. So, coming up, Mark is going to be reviewing Undertone Le Tranger, latest film from Francois Ozon. And our special guest is Brian Cox, the actor, not the scientist. Plus a sort of top 10. And the laughter Lift, the only elevator where the puns are more mechanical than the machinery. Back after this. Hey, Mark Kermode.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

When we first started our journey in Wizardtainment, did you worry that people might not listen or care about what we had to say?

[Mark Kermode]

I did. What if we made fools of ourselves?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, thankfully it turns out people love it, specifically when we make fools of ourselves. So we needn't have worried.

[Mark Kermode]

That's good, because we're very good at that.

[Simon Mayo]

That said, wouldn't it have been great if there'd been something like Shopify to help us get started? Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started.

[Mark Kermode]

Get the word out like you have a top marketing team behind you and easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling.

[Simon Mayo]

It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your one pound per month trial at shopify.co.uk take that's shopify.co.uk take

[Molly Sims]

hey guys, this is Molly Sims, host of Lipstick on the Rim. So I have a little bit of a pet peeve that I think you're going to relate to this. I'll be having a great day, feeling good, and someone will say to me, you look tired. And I'm like, I promise you I'm not really tired. But here's what I've learned. My eyelids, they do sit a little low. And once my doctor explained that to me, it actually kind of made a lot of sense. She prescribed me upneek, the first and only FDA approved prescription eye drop for adults with low lying eyelids. One drop per eye. In the morning and I notice my eyes look more open awake within minutes. It's like just one simple step. That's it. And the results? Guess what? They last up to eight hours. Learn more about upneek.com that's u p n e e q.com or talk to your doctor. Just a little quick safety note about UPEEK. Oxymetazoline hydrochloride ophthalmic solution 0.1%. Tell your doctor your symptoms and medical history, including blood pressure, blood flow issues and heart, brain or Eye disease. Drooping eyelids can be caused by other more serious conditions such as a stroke. Do not touch the tip of the upne vial to your eye or any other surface. This is not a complete list of risks.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so this, as Mark has explained, is not a live show, obviously. Normally we're live into your ears. It pretends to be a podcast, but actually it's a live show normally. But we're slightly up front here. So we're speaking before the apocalypse, but. So we've got an alternative chart to the box office top 10. But this is really interesting. It's the top 20 most popular downloaded films according to the official charts company.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay.

[Simon Mayo]

So this is not the same as streamed then the. This will be the films that people have paid money for streaming.

[Mark Kermode]

Don't you?

[Simon Mayo]

But if you've downloaded it, it's a specific act. You know, you've seen that a Spider man film is available. It's not on a streamer, but you pay 3.99 to rent or something like that.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, downloaded as a copy, says Simon Poole.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. So you get that, so you pay for it. So these are the top 20 most popular downloaded films.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

As opposed to just streamed. Number 20, Jurassic World, Rebirth. 31 weeks on the chart. Dave K. Thank you for this, Dave. A wild stomping return that knows exactly what it is. Big dinos, bigger chaos. It's like someone found the franchise's old DNA in amber and injected it with pure mayhem. Not subtle, not sensible, but absolutely a blast. I grinned like an idiot.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, the only word in that that I agree with is idiot.

[Simon Mayo]

Nice. It's not that you're a bad guitarist. You're not.

[Mark Kermode]

I just don't like you.

[Simon Mayo]

19 is Downton Abbey. The grand finale. 23 weeks on the chart.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Does exactly what it says.

[Simon Mayo]

Exactly. Interstellar is at number 18. 348 weeks on the chart. This is like the dark side of the moon.

[Mark Kermode]

That is really incredible, isn't it? That is just really incredible at 300. Although I don't. I mean, that means it was released 348 weeks ago, but we don't know that it's constantly been in the top 20 for 348 weeks. I mean, I think that that sounds unlikely. It's in its 348th week. Maybe it's gone back in again because maybe there's renewed interest due to Project Hail Mary, which does have certain genetic connections with Interstellar in as much as the sentiment doth overshadow the science. And that's fine.

[Simon Mayo]

I Just want. If it says 348 weeks, that must be 348 weeks in the chart. Surely. Otherwise it makes no sense. Anyway, Tarek says, a visually stunning lecture in quantum confusion. Half the time I felt like I needed a PhD. The other half I just wanted someone to speak plainly. Gorgeous. Well, yes, absolutely.

[Mark Kermode]

Subtle.

[Simon Mayo]

Nope. Emotional manipulation at the speed of light. Also, how long would it have taken to. For him to tap out the message? Okay, well, good. Still. Still a great film. That's number 18. Number 17 is anaconda. Six weeks in the chart.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, well, that's not. That's not going to be around for 348 weeks, is it?

[Simon Mayo]

Spider man homecoming at number 16.

[Mark Kermode]

272 weeks. I think this must be just weeks since they opened. I think it must be, but in

[Simon Mayo]

which case it's a pointless figure.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, but hey. More Importantly, however, number 15, the Ballad of Wallace Island.

[Simon Mayo]

JC42, an unexpectedly charming surprise, feels like a folk tale told around a fire on a windy beach. Wistful, slightly odd and quietly magical. The world building is rich without shouting, and the ending lingers long after.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, and as I said, I know a. I know a couple of independent film managers who said they could literally play Ballad of Wallace island every weekend from now until eternity, and it would fill out the screen. People just love the film. It's.

[Simon Mayo]

It's.

[Mark Kermode]

It's proved to be a real sort of slow burn sleeper hit and it's done terrifically well.

[Simon Mayo]

Zootropolis 2 is at 14.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, I like Zootropolis 2. I like Zootropolis 1, but, you know, it's good.

[Simon Mayo]

Dogma is at number 13. Jerry and Gloucester. Like a pub debate that spirals into something funnier and smarter than expected. Still great after all these years.

[Mark Kermode]

I just was looking at the poster, the original poster for it, and the tagline was Get Touched by an Angel.

[Simon Mayo]

Really?

[Mark Kermode]

I've forgotten that. You really liked Dogma when it came out, didn't you? Because you thought it was kind of really theologically interesting.

[Simon Mayo]

I just. Is that. It's.

[Mark Kermode]

Alana. Alana Morissette was God. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Alana Morissette is a cartwheeling God.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Which made it very interesting. 28 years later, the Bone Temple is at number 12.

[Mark Kermode]

And, you know, I am. I am so in the market for the third in this particular trilogy. And incidentally, to the person who wrote under the. Whatever it was on the YouTube. I know, don't go below the line. All the rest of it. I know we've explained this so many

[Simon Mayo]

times the word is trilogy, but the word is trilogy in Elvis land.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Because American Elvis fans refer to the American trilogy because they're Americans and I find that funny.

[Simon Mayo]

And they put in syllables where none

[Mark Kermode]

exist and then they take some out like aluminum.

[Simon Mayo]

H is for Hawk is at number 11.

[Mark Kermode]

Loved it. Absolutely huge fan of that. We love Claire Foy. Claire Foy is currently in the. In the, you know, box office top 10 as well with the Magic Far Away Tree. But H is for Hawk is terrific and top Hawk work.

[Simon Mayo]

The Super Mario Brothers movie, 137 weeks in, is at number 10 and presumably

[Mark Kermode]

back in because there's more Mario on the way. And I wonder as well whether the interstellar thing is partly because there's a new Nolan on the way.

[Simon Mayo]

So at number nine, it's the housemaid. And I like this from Nelly who says every scene whispers isn't this deep. While I whispered, I whispered, please hurry up. A slow burn that mostly just burns time. Housemaid no. 9.

[Mark Kermode]

I enjoyed it. I mean, I thought it was. It turns out it's now. Is that right? It was Paul Feig's most money spinning. Anyway. It's daft as a brush and it is a throwback to all those kind of single white females and all that sort of stuff, but I really enjoyed it.

[Simon Mayo]

It's really silly hamnets at number eight. Of course it is.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. You know, I. I think you feel the same way. It's good, but it's not good.

[Simon Mayo]

I like it a whole lot more than you.

[Mark Kermode]

But it's not as good as ages for Hawk, is it?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, I think it is as good. I think I enjoyed it. I enjoyed them both. I didn't feel emotionally manipulated the way you did.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, okay, fair enough.

[Simon Mayo]

So Weapons is at number seven.

[Mark Kermode]

The Oscar winning Weapons. The Oscar winning Weapons.

[Simon Mayo]

Wicked For Good is at number six.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So, you know, I liked the second Wicked. I know a lot of people who didn't, but I don't quite see the huge shift between the first one and the second one. I just thought they were all part. They were all of a piece.

[Simon Mayo]

So this is the top five, then, of the most popular downloaded films. Number five, Spider man. No Way Home. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Kind of to be expected. Number four.

[Simon Mayo]

One Battle after another, which is, I

[Mark Kermode]

mean, that's, you know, that's pretty. So that's 19 weeks and of course, you know, a boost since it. Since it did very, very well at the Oscars and a film that cost an awful lot of money but took an awful lot of money. Will continue to take money.

[Simon Mayo]

I think Shelter is at number three,

[Mark Kermode]

which I was kind of, you know, impressed to see. This is only its second week in, so it'll, you know, it'll probably be in there for another couple of weeks, but I enjoyed it enough when it came out. I thought was kind of fun.

[Simon Mayo]

Dune is at number two. I imagine that's the first one.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And I. Which is weird that Dune Part 2 isn't alongside it because I think generally Dune Part 2 was regarded to be the superior film, but we have more. There's more dunk coming.

[Simon Mayo]

And at number one, 42 weeks on sinners, the most popular downloaded film in the uk.

[Mark Kermode]

And again, not a surprise. Obviously the Oscar boost has really, really helped. But very popular when it came out and now back up at number one after having rattled everybody's cages at the Oscars by being the one genuine surprise because Timothee Chalamet was way ahead, I mean, way ahead in the bookies right up until the last week. And then at the very last minute, he went into second place because of Sinners.

[Molly Sims]

This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.5 of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together.

[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

take care of the rest.

[Mark Kermode]

Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

[Simon Mayo]

So special guest on the show this week is top actor Brian Cox. So I'm going to go through just before we hear from him and we hear a clip from the movie. I'm just going to read out some of his big hits and if you want to interject or just shout in the background, be a shanty man.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Then feel free. Started out in theater in a 1967 production of Shakespeare's as yous Like It. Probably best known still now, I would think, for the Logan Roy in succession for which he won a Golden Globe.

[Mark Kermode]

So here we go.

[Simon Mayo]

Pope John Paul II, which I'd completely forgotten, played Dr. Hannibal Lecter in the second best Lecter thriller, Manhunter, five years before Anthony Hopkins. Braveheart in 1995, the Glimmer Man, 96

[Mark Kermode]

Braveheart and Rob Roy. He was in both of them.

[Simon Mayo]

He was, isn't he?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Long kiss goodnight. 96, Rushmore, 98, Super Troopers 2001, which I'd certainly forgotten. Lie 2001.

[Mark Kermode]

That is an astonishing film, Lie. And very, very brave of him to have done it.

[Simon Mayo]

The Bourne Identity and the Bourne Supremacy, also the Ring and the Rookie. So he went through, like, all 2002. He only appeared in movies with the so X2, X Men United, the Escapist, 2008, Planet of the Apes 2011 and the Slap 2015. Anyway, so he's done loads, he has won loads of stuff. And now he has directed a new movie. It's called Glen Rothen. And you'll hear from Brian Cox after this clip.

[Brian Cox]

Your native land.

[Mark Kermode]

Nice to have you back, Donald. Sure.

[Brian Cox]

My wee brother. It's been nearly 40 years since you left for America. So you came then? Did you have to march him to the airport at gunpoint?

[Molly Sims]

I don't know what happened between you two. This is a great opportunity for you guys to clean all this up.

[Brian Cox]

You were missed at his funeral.

[Simon Mayo]

He never missed me.

[Brian Cox]

No, but I did. I've decided to resign as chairman of the distillery. My brother will take over the reins.

[Mark Kermode]

What?

[Simon Mayo]

And that is a clip from Glen Roth and Brian Cox. Welcome to the show.

[Brian Cox]

Thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

How are you?

[Brian Cox]

I'm good, actually. It's been a bit of an exhausting week because I had to. I had to fly to New York for one day to do a costume fitting for the next job I'm doing. And I said, could you not. No, you've got to come.

[Simon Mayo]

You could do costumes in the uk, surely.

[Brian Cox]

Well, yes, I could, but not for this, because it's an American show. So I had to go. And they're all, you know, so. And there's these. I mean, what's happening is really interesting in the States at the moment because the whole film production, Hollywood is virtually dead. Virtually dead. So everything. I mean, like, Netflix has taken over this huge area in New Jersey and they does. They're building studios. They built the studio on the west side highway on 55th street and it's five stages. It's huge, Absolutely huge. I went to it the other day because that's where I went for my fitting. So the work is becoming more and more east coast based rather than west coast based, which I think, especially for me, somebody who goes between here and, you know, the UK and the us it's great, but it's really happening over there.

[Simon Mayo]

Did you get some good clothes out of it, though?

[Brian Cox]

What clothes?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Did they fit? Did it look.

[Brian Cox]

Oh, well? No, because I'm playing an absolute slob. So they were the worst clothes ever. I had to wear shirts that I would not be seen, my corpse would not be seen in, but that wasn't from that point of view. And I'm also in a wheelchair. Yeah, okay. So I had to also practice in my wheelchair as well.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so that's a slightly different vibe. So back. Back to a familiar. A familiar land. Introduce us to Glenn Rothen and how you got involved in this project.

[Brian Cox]

Well, what happened was that I, Neil Zeiger, who's out there, who brought the coffee, he came to me and he said, david is David Ashton, who I've been working with for 20 years doing McClevey. You know, it's a rad thing that we've done forever, long time with Siobhan Redmond and myself, and it's been great. And I said, david's written this film script and you're going to direct it. And I went, oh, hey. I said, bro, so what? You going to direct this film? I said, what do you mean? He said, no, you're directing this film. I said, well, do I not have any say in the matter? I said. He said, I'm sure you do, but you're still directing the film. So I ended up directing the film. He said, also, there's a partner that you could play as well. I said, well, I'll be happy with that, you know. And the script was sent to me and I just thought, this is a really interesting script. And we worked on it for quite a while, and originally I was intending. Originally I thought that we'd have an American play the part that Alan finally plays because he's been in America for so long. And then I thought, no, I don't want to do that. I want to play with somebody who's lived. And then I realized, of course, the perfect person was Alan. It's Alan's partner. It's been Alan's partner all the time. And so getting Alan and then getting that cast and particularly that talent and the crew is sensational. I mean, I've never worked with such a great crew, and I work from an egalitarian Basis that everybody does what they do and they offer it to me and I take it. I don't say I want you to do this or I want you to do that, because, I don't know, I'm clueless. I'm, you know, I work with the team and you. You're part of the team, and you're just the guy who's just, you know, just saying action and cut, you know. But it was wonderful experience, Absolutely wonderful experience. And I was very nervous. I mean, I really was nervous because I didn't know if I was doing any good, because I'm not a concept. I don't like concept films. I mean, I. You know, there are some great, you know, great filmmakers, like awesome Wells or what have you, but it's nothing one like that. So I just thought, well, I'll just make a. And it's a simple film. So it was a. It was a joy to work on.

[Simon Mayo]

Had you been tempted to direct before?

[Brian Cox]

No. I mean, I've directed in the theater, but I never ever thought I would ever direct a movie. I mean, I'm a certain age nowadays. You know, people are being put out to grass.

[Simon Mayo]

You know, do the skills of directing in the theater apply? Do they transfer to the.

[Brian Cox]

Well, the thing about it, my thing has always been about the actors. It's always been about the script and the actors. You know, whatever you do, you give it the environment, but it's essentially about the relationships of. And I think this film covers that incredibly well. And then, of course, what I also loved and the thing that I wanted

[Mark Kermode]

to

[Brian Cox]

put the foot down on, I mean, in a sense of Accelerate, was the music idea. The idea that, you know, the Scots are a kind of. We love our music and we love our folk music. So there's a whole link with that and that comes through the film. And the two guys, Tommy and Roddy, who did the music, are again, two Scottish lads. You know, they've never composed for a whole film before. And I gave them an opportunity. I said, it's your movie, you do what you want.

[Simon Mayo]

So tell us the story that is told in Glenrothen.

[Brian Cox]

Well, the story is basically, I play Sandy, I play the eldest brother, and the eldest brother is a bit of a bore. You know, he's a very sort of canny kind of character. And he's the real talent was the youngest brother, played by Alan. And we've got. In flashback, we have a young guy playing both. The boys who play us are so good. They're so excellent. And that idea is that the youngest one was the real talent. He was the one who did all the experiment with a blended whiskey, which blended whiskey really did actually start a bit earlier than our film. But in the film we use it. It's a kind of relatively new thing. And the father objects to the notion of blend because it's a malt whiskey business. And then eventually you find out that in fact I've embraced it as the subsequent owner of the business or the guy who runs it. And it's about the fact I wanted to leave. I never wanted to stay. I wanted to get away. I wasn't allowed to because my brother left and my younger brother left because he left under a clone. And he lives under a very difficult situation. So I'm left holding the baby, as it were, and I put it together and I run it for 40 odd years. But I've got to a point now where I'm older, my health is probably in a difficult situation. And I write to my brother and say, look, I think it's time I decided what we were going to. Because he's still a partner even though he's not been there for 40 years. So I tried to persuade him to come back. And so I send him this letter and he sort of tucks it away and hides it. And then we go to him in New York. He runs a blues club, a blues bar in Chicago, which is. Chicago just has a lot of these amazing blues bars. Which was again my idea that it was a blues bar. And he runs it and it's very successful. It's called Donald's Dive. Very successful. And what happens is we have a number there where his daughter played wonderfully by Alexander Shipp, who's mixed race. She and him sing together this wonderful song. And that's the opening, virtually the opening of the film. And then that place burns down. So he's the brothers and the younger brothers and put in a difficult position about what he does next. And his daughter and the granddaughter always go to Scotland. They've gone, he's never gone back. And so she suggests maybe we should go back. And he's dead against it. But then realizing that his club has gone and there may be something to be got from the distillery, he decides difficulty, still not happy about it, to go to Scotland. And he goes to Scotland. And then the proverbial hits the fan.

[Simon Mayo]

Holding grudges is a lot of what

[Brian Cox]

the film's about, isn't it?

[Simon Mayo]

And not. And families who don't get on something that you. You specialize in or you have done I have done recently. But holding grudges in a movie is always a bad thing and a recipe for disaster. Yeah, so you've said many times, love letter to Scotland. Yeah, it's also a love letter to whiskey. It's not a love letter to porridge. I have to say, porridge comes out of this film very badly.

[Brian Cox]

Well, it's because we make it very badly. I mean, I made porridge for many years and my porridge is good, but my brother's porridge is porridge. He made it. Yeah. And then we have to eat it and it's truly horrible. As I say in the film, it

[Simon Mayo]

is a whiskey soaked film. I was slightly. I was worried for you once and I was worried for Alan because he. He smokes all the way through the film, drinks whiskey all the way through the film, and then he gets on the motorbike. And I was thinking, you know, that's not a good combination. And then there's.

[Brian Cox]

And there's a very Scottish combination.

[Simon Mayo]

And then when you, when you launch yourself at him, that's some fight that you have.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Where was that fun to do was. What was the last fight you were in?

[Brian Cox]

I haven't done a fight for a long time. I mean, it's, it's threatened, you know, he just rages, he just loses. And then he attacks him, you know, in a way. And of course it's reminiscent of the fight we see an earlier fight where he leaves, which is at the mother's funeral. And the mother is a very strong element in the screen. She's the one who says, get away, get away, you don't want to be here. And she's a deeply unhappy woman and she's very haunted by it. And he's haunted by his mother. And he goes and he talks to his mother at the graveside and he says, I've come back, mom, and I'm still loss. I miss you. And of course, the thing about Donald, what's really great about Donald is that he's lost something. He knows he's lost something that he needs to find again. And that's also part of one of the reasons why in a way, he comes back. I mean, there's the financial situation, but there's also the thing that he finally realizes that at his, you know, he's now in his 60s at his age, it's time that he just reconnected in some way just to find out what went on. Because he was the one I never wanted to leave. You know, he wanted to. It's very clear you know, they have this wonderful scene between the two brothers where the elder, my younger version of me, says, I want to get away. I don't want to be. And of course, the irony is he ends up being there. And the other brother goes.

[Simon Mayo]

Many years ago, I interviewed Sean Penn, who just directed a movie with Mark Rylance, and he said, just to. Sean Penn said, you can always tell when somewhere is that when someone is theater trained. As someone whose roots are in the theater, is that true? If you're working in a movie, can you tell if someone has done theater?

[Brian Cox]

Well, I mean, for Sean Penn, I could understand that because I wouldn't have thought that he's not come across a lot of theater people in that sense, because he lived. He grew up in Hollywood. So it's. It's film, film, film, film, film. We have a different culture. Our roots are in the theater, and Alan's roots are certainly in the theater. My roots are certainly in the theater. Alan said Hugh. I mean, with Cabaret and the stuff that he's done. So that really is so. I'm not sure about that. I mean, that sounds a little, though it's a bit derogatory. But the theater for me is where I've learned everything. I. I'm so grateful to the theater because I wouldn't have been. I don't think I would be a. The actor and the director, especially in the theater, if it hadn't been for my relationship to the theater and understanding it.

[Simon Mayo]

Once you've played the role in America in the wheelchair with the slobby clothes and so on, will you be tempted to direct again? Will you be tempted to go back on the scene? Well, I just.

[Brian Cox]

See, I mean. I mean, I'm happy to. To do that, but I need to know that people want me to do it. You know, I'm not going to do it just for my own reasons. I mean. I mean. I mean, this has happened and in a way I never expected. It's completely unexpected that this film happened. And I'm very proud of the film because I'm proud of the way I believe films should be made. They should be egalitarian based so that everybody does. They contribute their talent and you don't interfere with their talent. See, so many directors want it their way so that. So everybody else has to be subservient to that one idea. I don't agree with that. I really don't agree with that because I do think that filmmaking is. Is a sort of much more embracing thing because of the. The various skills, like a Collective, really? Yeah, it is a collective and I. And that's what I. That's what I'm interested in.

[Simon Mayo]

Brian Cox is always a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking to us.

[Brian Cox]

Thank you, Sam. Nice to talk to you.

[Simon Mayo]

Always very entertaining to speak to Brian Cox. I know you've done that many times, but he's just. He's got loads of things to say and decades of understanding to bring to everything.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. He is one of the greatest actors of our generation and, you know, never less than entertaining company.

[Simon Mayo]

And when will you be reviewing Glen

[Mark Kermode]

Rothen films out next week, so. Reviewing it next week.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. So that's on the way. Meantime, and with the wood chipper in the road still grinding away, it's time for me to grind away as well as we step once again into the hugely popular Laughter Lift.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, dear. Waited a long time for that lift to arrive, didn't we?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, well, it's like that, you know, you. You stand and you press the button and you're thinking, where is. Where is the lift? Why is it stopping on every floor?

[Mark Kermode]

You know, I. I was in a Travel Lodge the other day, my place of choice, and somebody pressed the button for the lift and it didn't come. And they pressed the button again and they pressed the button again and I said, you know, it doesn't make it come any faster. And they gave me. They gave me what my mother used to refer to as an old Fashioned look.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, a Paddington stare.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, as we're in the Laughter lift, I might as well deliver these. These.

[Mark Kermode]

You might as well. You got nothing better to do?

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark, how do you invite a dinosaur for dinner if you're northern?

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, heavens above. I don't know.

[Simon Mayo]

Can I just say, we're defining that this means, like, from the north of England.

[Brian Cox]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

As opposed to what?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I remember when Mark and lad. When Mark and lad talked a lot about being northern.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Nikki Campbell would come on and saying, you know, as a. I think you're southern, so.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, okay, fair enough.

[Simon Mayo]

So I don't want to spoil the joke. How do you invite a dinosaur for dinner if you're from the north of England?

[Mark Kermode]

I don't know.

[Simon Mayo]

T Rex. Hey, Mark, it's just occurred to me, someone born in.

[Mark Kermode]

Why would that be from the north of England? Anyone can say T Rex.

[Simon Mayo]

I think it's. But it's.

[Mark Kermode]

I think it's particularly because they call dinner tea. Yes, says Simon Poole.

[Simon Mayo]

Coming for tea.

[Brian Cox]

Wow.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, north of the Watford Gap.

[Simon Mayo]

This just occurred to me, someone born in 33 was 45 in 78. That's got to be a record.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey, that's much better. That's much better.

[Simon Mayo]

On a recent visit to to Copenhagen, Grandson one came up to me with an outstretched hand holding an acorn, Bestafar being the Danish. What's this? He said that that's a tree, young grandson, I replied. He looked confused. This is a tree?

[Mark Kermode]

Are you sure?

[Simon Mayo]

He asked. Yes, in a nutshell. Hey, can I just say that the

[Mark Kermode]

biggest laugh for that joke was the sound of the wood chipper?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Isn't that the.

[Simon Mayo]

Isn't that like a metaphor for life instead of tumbleweed? It's the wood chipper. And it's getting closer.

[Mark Kermode]

You're literally throwing these jokes into the wood chipper.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, and look at the mess that's coming out. Anyway, on the way, Mark, we'll talk about Undertone and letranger on the way. Spring Black Friday is on at the Home Depot. Save on grills and patio sets that will be sure to bring your hosting game up a notch. Fire up your feast with help from the Home Depot and save on grills like the next grill 4 burner propane gas grill was $249 now in special buy for $199. Or give everyone the best seat in the yard with the Hampton bay Mayfield park four piece conversation set for only $399. Save on grills and patio sets with low prices guaranteed during Spring Black Friday Only at the Home Depot now through April 22nd while supplies last exclusion supplies.

[Mark Kermode]

See homedepot.com Pricematch for details. This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's biggest stage is approaching and Ferrero is making it easy. Pick any two Ferrero brands from Kinder Bueno to Ferrero Rocher and you could win the $1 million grand prize plus an exciting range of daily and weekly prizes. Don't miss your shot. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallin and win.com.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, got an email here from [e-mail] Dear 90s Mark and 90s Simon, for many of us listeners who were teenagers in the 90s as we were really, Jared Leto will forever be Jordan Catalano from 90s show My so Called Life. Therefore, we will put our fingers in our ears as you berate him. We'll forgive him his most recent nonsense and instead sigh wistfully as we recall the teenage daydreams we had about him. His next feature could be a three hour epic of him standing in front of a mirror flexing his Pecs while talking in an Italian accent. And we would still only see him with floppy hair. Hair leaning against the school lockers in his plaid shirt. Up with Jordan Catalano and down with any other version of Jared Leto. Okay, we all wore plaid in the 90s. I did the Smashes Pole Winners party in a green plaid shirt which is now worn by Child two.

[Mark Kermode]

You're sort of wearing a plaid shirt now, Simon. Well, it's.

[Simon Mayo]

Is it. Would you say it's plaid?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, what would you call it? Checkered?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mark Kermode]

Chubby Checker.

[Simon Mayo]

I think it's. I think it's one of those. Anyway, catriona. Thank you. Correspondencecodermayor.com what else is out? What else can we go and see?

[Mark Kermode]

I think you're gonna like this undertone. This is a low budget Canadian horror film from feature debut writer director Ian Tuison. T U A S O N flagged on the poster as this got me. And it got you straight away. The scariest movie you'll ever hear, which is a good tagline. So made for about around half a million dollars featuring only two on screen actors. I mean, you know, remember in the case of one last deal, it was only one and that was one too many. This is just the two. So whatever happened to that film? It briefly skimmed the surface of the top 30 before skipping like a. Like a stone over the water into the realms of the unstreamed. I'm surprised.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

So Evie, Nina Curie, who shoulders most of the movie, and her comatose mother, to whom she is tending, who appears to be in the final stages of her life, she is in that house. Okay. So she's looking after her mum, who is just asleep, unconscious in a bed. Evie co hosts a spooky podcast which she describes as the only thing that's keeping me sane right now. With Adam DiMarco's Justin, who, as with all the other cast members we only hear, she goes online, she speaks to him. So he is voiced by Adam DiMarco, apparently, incidentally, Adam DiMarco's voice, because Adam DeMarco's in White Lotus was put on after the film had first been shown. It was after it was picked up. And they thought this is going to go somewhere. So they were. The original voice was Chris Holden Reed, and then they replaced it with Adam DeMarco, I think probably because of star power. So Justin, and you've got this kind of molder and scully like relationship. He wants to believe in the supernatural stuff that they talk about. And she, despite her religious upbringing Believes in science and rationale over superstition. Or does she? So the story starts with Justin on the other end of the line saying, I've been sent 10 audio files in an anonymous email and we're going to listen to them on air. These recordings were apparently made on a phone by a guy named Mike, whose partner Jessup was talking in her sleep. She seems to be singing nursery rhymes in her sleep, but when those nursery rhymes are played backwards, they become a lot creepier. Here's a clip from the trailer.

[Molly Sims]

Welcome to the Undertone podcast where we talk about all things creepy. I'm your in house skeptic. Evie Babich and Michael Lever, co host, says he has a real treat for us today.

[Mark Kermode]

We're listening to 10 mysterious audio recordings from an anonymous email.

[Brian Cox]

Oh my God.

[Molly Sims]

Implying there was hidden messages in it.

[Mark Kermode]

Let me play it back in reverse.

[Molly Sims]

Play the next one. Let's find out.

[Simon Mayo]

Now, is he. Is he saying who won the war?

[Mark Kermode]

No, he's saying something about. Although interestingly enough, the fact that you just thought that is kind of. Let me come to that point because it's kind of crucial. Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

All right.

[Mark Kermode]

So the ensuing story then involves Justin on the one saying, you know, listen, can't you hear that when he's playing, he goes backwards and he's saying, you know, kill everybody. And she's saying, don't be ridiculous. And while she's saying, she's googling hidden messages in nursery rhymes, hidden messages in Baa Baa, Black Sheep. And this is all just, you know, folk tale nonsense. But gradually maybe it becomes something else. Now, you will be unsurprised to discover that this actually began life. It was originally conceived as a radio play. Okay? So it was obviously, the audio was the big thing. And you and I are both obviously huge fans of radio and I have a real thing about recorded voices. Apparently the film is also. It was recorded in. The film was made in the writer director's childhood home, which explains a lot about his kind of personal connection to the. To the story and also the fact of the connection about her tending to her. To her terminally ill parent. So the film won an audience award at the Fantasia International Film Festival last year. Then it was picked up by a 24. And so far, on the original budget of half a million, it's taken 15 million. Now, bear in mind, money has been spent on it because that's how these things work. But it's, you know, it's done very well. I really liked it for a number of reasons. The first one Is. And I think it has the kind of stripped down, let's make the most of the least philosophy of films like Blair Witch Project, which still to this day, people don't remember how scary Blair Witch was when it came out. I have a friend who is now an actor who was a film critic when she saw the Blair Witch Project in Cannes. And there is a film of her literally having a panic attack on the street afterwards because she'd never been so scared in her life. Or more recently, during lockdown, there was that film Host, in which the whole thing played out over a zoom call. You know, so really sort of stripped down resources. Secondly, in the mother daughter stuff with the mother in the bed apparently dying, there is some kind of connective tissue between that and a film which I talked about before called Relic, which is a horror movie, but I think is a brilliant film about dementia. And we talked about this at the time. Many people of our age will have experienced. Will have had an experience of a loved one with dementia. And it's a very, very hard subject to talk about. But there is a. There is a kind of slightly connective thread there. And the third thing is, look back. Masking is bunk, right? Okay, yeah, of course it is. Of course it is. And, you know, for proof, there's that. That very good documentary, Dream Deceivers, which is the documentary about the Judas Priest trial in which it was alleged that they had put back masked messages in their music. And the trial concluded, this is just silly. There is no evidence at all that saying something backwards. The brain, it just. It's not. And anyway, the messages aren't there. However, I was really fascinated for. There's a guy called Konstantin Raudive who kind of pioneered this thing called evp, electronic voice phenomenon, that he would record silence, and then he would listen to the silence, and he would start to hear voices in it. And the more he listened to the tape, he'd hear little tape noises, and the tape noises would then reveal themselves to be voices. And Bill Blatty, who wrote the Exorcist, became very, very interested in this because Bill was convinced that these were voices of the dead attempting to communicate with the living. And in Legion, he writes about these voices. And I spent one really, really strange afternoon with Bill sitting in his upstairs attic, as opposed to his downstairs attic, listening to these tape recordings he had made that he used in Legion. And what happened was you just hear. And then you play it again, and then you'd hear the. And you'd listen to it again and again and again. And again. And suddenly the would turn into a voice. It would say something, it would say a word. Now, what was actually happening was that your mind was putting order on chaos. Like when you said you heard that thing and you said, is he saying who won the war? Right, that's what I thought it was, yeah. No, but that's fine. Because once your brain hears something and it wants to impose order on it, and that's pretty much how EVP works. It's just a noise, but your brain. But once you've heard it, you can't unhear. And with Bill, there was this case in which he had all these things in which there were quotes that he uses in Legion, but there was one he said, I've never been able to decipher it. And he was playing it, and he was playing it, and he was playing it, and he said, I'll play it to you, see whether you hear anything. And we were sitting with our hands on our headphones like this in Bill's attic, and I heard as clear as day, my name. I heard it said this thing said Mark Kermode. And I nearly jumped out of my skin. And once I said to Bill, that's my. Because he'd recorded these in the 1970s, way before he and I ever met. And he went, yeah, that is what it is. Because it isn't. It was my brain imposing order on it. But I've got a real fascination with this. And this is a. It's a creepy idea. It's a really creepy.

[Simon Mayo]

If I listen back to that, would I hear something else?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Or if I told you that what you're going to hear is Mark Kermode, that's what you would hear. You know what I mean? Like, now you said to me that that tape in that thing says who won the war? If you go back. If you press replay on this podcast now and go back to that clip knowing that Simon said the voice was saying who won the war? That's what you would hear.

[Simon Mayo]

It'd be really annoying. If you listen back to that and you heard a voice saying Mark commode, then you'd have to have an argument

[Mark Kermode]

with the EVP person.

[Simon Mayo]

It's not pronounced like that.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway. Anyway, I think it's a really creepy idea. There's something about leaning into sound. And I think the writer, director of this film knows exactly what's creepy about it and exactly what to do with it. And the film really engrossed me. I mean, I thought it was a really stripped down, well done idea. I was Then slightly depressed to discover that in December it was announced that he's gonna write and direct the next Paranormal Activity movies. Oh really? Because we have to go there. Which is a kind of a shame. I don't know, I mean if, if the next Paranormal Activity film is a patch on this, it will be a miracle. But I thought this was a really effective, creepy, stripped down, single idea, well executed horror movie. And I really enjoyed it.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you. So Undertone is the movie that we're talking about. And now we get to the bit of the program where we're sent a number of audio files by complete strangers. Except that it's not a creepy thing, it's a what's on thing. But that's essentially exactly the same idea. Correspondencecodermayo.com you can send us an audio file or you can send a video, which would be a very beautiful thing. First of all, Peter Turner, a lecturer at Oxford Brookes University.

[Mark Kermode]

Hello Simon and Mark. I've been loving your recent discussions about

[Brian Cox]

and the emails from listeners who watched

[Mark Kermode]

age inappropriate films as kids. I thought you might be interested to know that I've just published a book on exactly this topic with Edinburgh University Press. It's called Unsuitable Film and Video Audiences. I won't give you the full title

[Brian Cox]

because it's too long, but the book

[Mark Kermode]

is basically based on oral histories and questionnaires I conducted with 300 people from people who grew up during the 1980s video boom in the UK.

[Simon Mayo]

All right, okay, so that's Peter Turner.

[Mark Kermode]

Can I just say I've just, I've just looked this up. When he said, I won't say because it will be too long. Not really. Unsuitable film and video audiences. Underage viewing Memories and practices in 1980s United Kingdom.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so that's an academic book, isn't it?

[Mark Kermode]

Because if that was Edinburgh University Press. Yeah, it's got a good cover from Poltergeist.

[Simon Mayo]

All right. Okay, Peter, thank you very much indeed. If you have something that's connected to cinema or movies, whether it's a Watson

[Mark Kermode]

or you've got a book out or

[Simon Mayo]

a film out or whatever it is, we'd like to know about it. Send it to correspondencevidomayo.com thank you very much indeed for all the clips that we've had so far.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

We'll do as many as we can as we go through the weeks. Okay, so we had Francois Ozon on the show very recently talking about the Stranger Letranger. And there was like a couple of weeks up front and we said then that we couldn't review it because it's not out, but now it makes perfect sense because you can go and see it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. So the Stranger, Le Tranger, which is an adaptation of Albert Camus 1940s novel, which is now considered a key text in the evolution of existentialism, apparently one of the most widely read French novels worldwide. I didn't know that. I found that out from Wikipedia. I know about or knew about. First knew about Letranger the Stranger because of the Cures record Killing an Arab, which came out in the 1970s. And I remember hearing it and going, what on earth is that about? And everyone. It's a book. It's called the Stranger. It's by Albert Camus. And so, you know, went off and got a copy of album because it wasn't a set text here anyway. And so read it. And it was a sort of typical angsty text in the manner of I said this to Ozone, like Catcher in the Rye. And in the song, in the Cure song, there's that line, whatever I choose, it amounts to the same absolutely nothing which kind of, you know, ties into that sort of angsty, nihilistic, nothing means anything thing that you have when you're a teenager. So the novel centers on young man Meursault, who's disaffected. Taciturn, I think is the word that you talked about when you were talking about.

[Simon Mayo]

The judge calls him taciturn.

[Mark Kermode]

Judge calls him taciturn, that's right, yeah. So he shows little emotion when his mother dies, or when an acquaintance beats up a young woman, or when his girlfriend asks him if they should get married. He says, oh, no, fine. If you want to get married, fine. Or when, for reasons that are the sort of central thing of the thing, he kills an unnamed man, an Arab, as he says, on a beach is a crime for which he's arrested and tried. And the film opens with somebody saying, why are you in here? And he says, because I killed an Arab. And you would have to put that in inverted commas, because it is. That is the direct quote. So this was previously filmed by Lucina Visconti with Marcello Mastroianni, although apparently he only ended up doing because Visconti wanted Delon, Alain Delon, and the studio wouldn't go with it. And the film got mixed responses and apparently Camus estate didn't like it it very much. Camus, who I think died in 1960, had wanted it to be filmed by Jean Renoir, which is what Ozone was mentioning. So Ozu, as. As he told the film, Ozu Ozone, I'm saying Ozu. I'm turning him into a Japanese director. Ozone wanted to make a film about a disenfranchised young man of today who committed suicide. And he said he couldn't get funding for it. And then somebody said, you should read Letranger. And he said, well, I had let read l' Etranger because it was a set text in the same way that Lord of the Flies was for us. And then he revisited that book in the wake of this project that he didn't make and thought, okay, this is a way of doing a story that has a connection. So he sold that idea to Benjamin Voisin, playing Meursault, the central character. And so now you have this version, which is the second version. And in order to do it, he had to have it signed off by the Camus estate. So the irony is that the Visconti version, which is from the 60s, is made in vibrant color. This new version, made in the 21st century, is in black and white. And in fact, if you heard the interview, I said to Osson, is it to do with the black and white morality? He said, well, actually it was largely to do with economics, because if you haven't got the money to do a period film, you do it in black and white. But he also said it was to do with. To emphasize the sunlight, because the sunlight is a very big part of this. And, and so in the film, as in previous incarnations, Meursault's whole thing is that he's not being executed for the murder because, as everybody tells him, he's not the first person to kill an Arab and he won't be the last. And many people have got off for doing that. He says he's condemned for not crying at his mother's funeral and for being an atheist and for refusing to show contrition. So Ozan uses that narrative, but he says that what he's doing is updating it for 2026, not. Not 1942. And he said in our interview, because you asked him about this directly, that he said, what shocked me when I read the book today was the invisibilization of the Arabs. And he then went on to say that the book has been attacked for being colonialist, which it's not. He says he talked about the fact there was an apartheid relating to French Algeria in which there were second class citizens. And what Camus was doing was reflecting that apartheid. Anyway, that argument can rage, and rage doesn't matter. He was also talking about the fact that the story of The Algerian war is still taboo in France. I mean, as everybody knows, Battle of Algiers was a key to. Anyway, it is still something which needs to be updated and contextualised for a modern audience. So in this version, the main difference with this version is that both the victim and the victim's sister are given a degree of agency and are named so Musa Hamdani and Jameeli. And he said, you know, she is there to bear witness to the fact that in this story and at the trial, her brother is never mentioned, even though he is the one who is murdered. And he said that far from contradicting the novel, what he was doing was pulling a thread that was always there in Camus, but he was just sort of drawing it out. And you then said, which I thought was really insightful, do the female characters act as a counterpoint to. To the toxicity of the men? And he agreed that.

[Simon Mayo]

That, yeah, it felt like that that's what he'd done, certainly, yes.

[Mark Kermode]

And he agreed with you that that is exactly what was happening, is that the sister was absolutely the conscience. And there is a kind. There are moments during it in which women interact with each other in a way which is empathetic, in a way which never happens with the. With the men. Now, of course, inevitably, when this happened, some critics felt that, oh, he's just fallen foul of political correctness. In fact, Camus daughter, who authorized the adaptation, was quoted as saying, I thought the film was very good, but not the role he gave the sister at the end. I think Francois Ozon did it to satisfy Wokeism. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Really?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So. Yeah, precisely. So I think. I think the film does capture the angsty detachment of youth, and it reminds me why it was that when as a younger man was a kid, really, you know, that book seemed kind of profound and nihilistic and applaud it to the actor playing the central role, because you're playing an empty vessel. I mean, you're playing a cipher. You're playing someone who is, to quote Ozone again, an idea, an abstraction rather than a person. My problem. And you and I talked about this a little bit, and I want to know whether you still feel the same way. My problem is this existentialist despair is essentially infantile. Okay, yes. Sartre wrote Being a nothingness in the 1940s, and then he grew up and he became a Marxist and he wrote Search for a method in the 50s and critique of dialectical realism in the 60s, which accepted that the material world does affect how you understand the world. You know, that there are real Things really happening in the real world that really matter how you experience. And so there is a weird thing about stepping back into the story at all, which is that the central character is. Well, how did you find the central character?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I mean, certainly Benjamin Voisin, as Francois said his name, playing Meursault, he's very good. And that must be, as you mentioned, must be very difficult to sort of be nothing, to not react, because acting is all about reaction. Anyway, he's just this most infuriating character. And I don't, to be honest, existentialism and all that kind of nonsense you come across at university, and it's infuriating, and you don't often see it in the cinema. It just. It's always felt to me like an affectation of the wealthy. And you can just go, oh, yes, life is absurd, nothing matters. Well, you can think life is absurd, but how about everything matters? And if the thing that you think about out means that when the woman next door is being beaten up, you don't have an opinion, then frankly, your whole outlook is completely rubbish. So I just for hep it, I agree with you. Just grow up. It is something that you might want to think about when you're 15. But. But Merceau is a grown man, you know, and he. He just hides and is nothing to anybody. So I. I found it very well done, very well directed. I thought the black and white was. Was excellent. But the whole idea that existentialism means anything or is profound in any way to be ludicrous. That's what I thought.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so let me ask you this. If you, if you think that the central character and the central philosophical thrust of that character is ludicrous, does that mean necessarily that the film itself is ludicrous, or does it mean that the film is a rendering film?

[Simon Mayo]

Fine.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so we're on the same.

[Simon Mayo]

I kind of thought we're supposed to be infuriated by this guy, you know, we're supposed to think, yes, this is outrageous. And you just. The only bit, the only bit of the movie which I didn't quite agree with or thought, you've lost me there, is when Meursault is with his girlfriend Marie, played by Rebecca Marday.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

And she says, oh, you know, I love you.

[Mark Kermode]

We.

[Simon Mayo]

I want to get married. And he goes, all right, okay. I mean, I don't mind. Surely every woman at that point would have gone, okay, I'm out of here. You are so infuriating. You don't care about anything at all. I'm gone. So I Did think that most women would have just scalpered at that point, even though obviously, you know, he's got a nice butt and that may well be enough for her, but it wasn't enough for me.

[Mark Kermode]

One of the interesting things about the film for me was I thought the film was almost stolen by Denis Lavon as the. The dog beating Salamano.

[Simon Mayo]

He's only on for about three minutes.

[Mark Kermode]

He is, but aren't they Three minutes in which. Because he. You. You see him, you know, shouting and beating his dog, and then the dog is gone and he's bereft and he, you know. And I know there's the whole metaphor about the way in which he treated all that stuff going on, but I thought that there was something. I thought he did a brilliant job with a small role, a small but crucial role. Didn't you think?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, yes, I did. I thought, you know, he was very good. But then, of course, Meursault just goes, well. Gallic shrug. Je ne saur pas.

[Mark Kermode]

But do we agree that the accusation of wokeism is just.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, it's ludicrous. Because I thought he did that very well. He's making the same story, but he's just aware of the fact that obviously it's a colonial story, even if it's not written as a colonialist piece of literature. It is about the French occupation of Algeria. It's an interesting story. I thought it was very subtly handled, all that. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And I. Yeah. And it just makes my toes curl that people go,

[Simon Mayo]

I don't think that was the French. Anyway, the movie is Le Tranger or the Stranger. Be interested to know what you think. [e-mail] if you are an existentialist, if you believe that life is absurd and that nothing matters, obviously fight your corner. That would be very funny.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, they wouldn't. They just go, oh, I suppose that's right.

[Simon Mayo]

They don't care about anything, so why would they listen to this show? Yeah, that's right.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, good point.

[Simon Mayo]

So that's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather, Dom and the wood chipper. The redactor was Simon Poole. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get all of your podcasts, come and join us on Patreon, where all the fun stuff is. Mark, what is your film of the week?

[Mark Kermode]

You know, I. I'm gonna go for Undertaker.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, very good. The scariest film you've ever, ever heard. Yeah, we're going to bestow a year's Ultra membership to Correspondent of the Week. How about Catriona, who was the Jared Leto fan? Yes, I think she deserves it for Even though he knows Even though Catriona knows that Jared is a bit of a fool, I think she just closes her eyes and dreams of Jordan Catalano from back in the 90s.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

So you get a year's worth of Ultra membership. What a fine thing that is. Feel free to get in touch. We'd love to hear from you. Correspondenceoverdomode.com There'll be another take landed just adjacent to this one.

[Molly Sims]

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