Does THE DEVIL WEARS PRADA 2 rock the sequel trend? + STEVE COOGAN

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Does THE DEVIL WEARS PRADA 2 rock the sequel trend? + STEVE COOGAN
Release Date: April 30, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode & Simon Mayo
Special Guest: Steve Coogan

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This packed episode explores the current trend of film sequels, centering on the much-discussed The Devil Wears Prada 2 and asking: does it justify its return twenty years after the original? Mark and Simon provide in-depth film and TV reviews, including new releases Hokum and Surviving Earth, and revisit box office hits. The episode features a lively and insightful conversation with Steve Coogan, who joins to discuss his new Netflix series Legends, as well as his broader approach to drama and comedy.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Sequels and The Devil Wears Prada 2

[14:39–24:58]

• Expectations vs. Reality: Mark gives a comprehensive review of The Devil Wears Prada 2, noting the film’s attempt to rekindle the magic of the original.
  • All main characters return, including Anne Hathaway, Meryl Streep, Emily Blunt, and Stanley Tucci. Notably, a new addition is Kenneth Branagh as Miranda Priestley’s husband.
  • The film’s storyline: Andy Sachs, now a respected journalist, returns to Runway magazine as features editor. Miranda Priestley must deal with new challenges, both personal and professional.
• Critique of the Sequel Formula:
  • Mark finds the plot “entirely performative and perfunctory,” emphasizing that it’s designed mainly to assemble fan-favorite characters for nostalgic situations.
  • “None of the plot makes any sense at all. It is literally just there to put the characters in the spaces together.” (Mark Kermode, 22:41)
  • Simon and Mark agree the sequel lacks the wit and bite of the original, especially the layered characterization of Meryl Streep as Miranda.
  • The contemporary subplot—print journalism vs. digital—is dismissed as “zeitgeisty window dressing.”
• Memorable Moments:
  • “From the opening scene … Andy receives an award for her hard hitting journalism and immediately gets fired by the magazine, which is cutting all its journalists” (Mark Kermode, 21:40)
  • Meryl Streep’s entrance still commands attention, but Mark notes, “there is not a single scene of that caliber” compared to the original’s iconic cerulean sweater speech.
  • Emily Blunt’s character is sadly “underserved … reduced to the level of caricature.”
• Final Assessment:
  • Mark: “Whilst the original is still memorable 20 years later, this is going to be forgotten 20 minutes after you’ve seen it.” (23:28)

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2. Box Office Top 10 & Other Film Reviews

[27:05–39:59]

• Notables:
  • Akira (returning to IMAX), Fight Club (4K restoration), Rose of Nevada (Mark’s pick for “film of the year so far”), Magic Faraway Tree, and Lee Cronin’s The Mummy.
• Lee Cronin’s The Mummy:
  • Described as “Exorcist with Bandages,” with Mark cataloguing its references from The Exorcist to The Omen and Ringu. Ultimately, he calls it “perfectly perfunctory and functional … better than Exorcist: Believer, but not much.”
• Project Hail Mary: Mark liked it, Simon less so (Simon had just read the book and missed its science-rich details).
• Super Mario Galaxy Movie and Michael (biopic):
  • Michael is dominating the charts but engenders mixed reactions—praised for performances but criticized for glossing over darker aspects of Jackson’s life.
  • Notable listener reactions:
    • “A joyful cinema experience” (Matthew, [36:10])
    • “Too rose-tinted” (Stephanie in Hertfordshire, [36:56])
    • “A jaw-dropping hagiography … more sanitized and shallow than Bohemian Rhapsody” (Nick in Leeds, [37:24])

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3. Steve Coogan Interview

[42:50–55:29]

• On Legends (Netflix):
  • Steve Coogan plays Don, head of Customs in a 1990s-set crime drama amid Britain’s heroin epidemic.
  • “These are not people who’ve had any kind of career in the police or the army … these are civil servants.” (Simon Mayo, 45:15)
  • The series features non-professional agents going undercover, leading to tense, unpredictable confrontations with organized crime.
• On Craft, Character & Approaching Real Stories:
  • Steve enjoys “just being an actor for hire … All I have to do is turn up and say the words, not bump into the furniture.”
  • On method acting: “I’m not really what you call a method actor. I don’t have to have my lunch as the character when I’m on set.”
• Playing Real People (from Philomena to Saipan & The Reckoning):
  • “I think I’ve played 11 real people in my career. Some dead, some living.” (Steve Coogan, 50:08)
  • On playing Mick McCarthy: “He’s part of the Irish diaspora. He’s a Northerner. I ticked both those boxes.” (51:36)
• Drama’s Power: “A good film is a kind of film where, when you’re leaving the cinema, … you’re still discussing it and deciding what point of view you think was the right one. That’s always a result.” (Steve Coogan, 54:49)

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4. Hokum – New Horror Release

[57:10–63:44]

• Review by Mark:
  • Described as “a pretty effective haunted house horror” with strong Stephen King vibes and dark humor.
  • “It’s like Barton Fink meets Father Ted via Stephen King.” (Mark Kermode, 61:50)
  • Praises its atmosphere, use of location, and balance between horror and humor.
  • Audience scared enough to kick the back of his chair—“like watching the film in 4D.”
• Fun Etymology:
  • “Hokum” derives from “hocus pocus” and “bunkum” (62:32). Hocus pocus is a parody of the Latin in the Catholic mass.

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5. Surviving Earth – Indie Drama Highlight

[73:23–79:12]

• Mark’s Film of the Week:
  • A deeply personal, semi-autobiographical drama about family, addiction, and music, centering on a Balkan bandleader struggling with past demons in Bristol.
  • “The music is a central character’s spirit—vibrant, exciting, unruly, a little bit dangerous.”
  • The film’s success comes from “getting the specific details right,” making it universally resonant despite its unique setting.
  • Special attention paid to a harmonica that passes through the generations—Mark gasped aloud during a dramatic moment involving it.
  • “A really terrific piece of work … inventive, adventurous cinema is alive and can surprise you.”
• Mark’s final verdict: “Surviving Earth. Absolutely. Go see it. It’s a terrific movie that needs your support and I was really excited by it.” ([79:34])

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MEMORABLE MOMENTS & QUOTES

• “None of the plot makes any sense at all. It is literally just there to put the characters in the spaces together.” (Mark Kermode on Devil Wears Prada 2, 22:41)
• “Whilst the original is still memorable 20 years later, this is going to be forgotten 20 minutes after you've seen it.” (Mark Kermode, 23:28)
• “A good film is a kind of film where … you’re still discussing it and deciding what point of view you think was the right one.” (Steve Coogan, 54:49)
• “Better than Exorcist: Believer, but not much.” (Mark Kermode on The Mummy, 34:59)
• “It’s like Barton Fink meets Father Ted via Stephen King.” (Mark on Hokum, 61:50)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• The Devil Wears Prada 2 Review: 14:39–24:58
• Box Office Top 10: 27:05–39:59
• The Mummy Capsule Review: 30:33–34:59
• Michael Biopic Audience Reactions: 36:10–39:59
• Steve Coogan Interview: 42:50–55:29
• Hokum Review: 57:10–63:44
• Surviving Earth Review: 73:23–79:12

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LISTENER CORRESPONDENCE & PHILOSOPHICAL TANGENTS

• Intelligent debate around the phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theater” and free speech (10:06–14:30).
• Etymology of words like “hokum” and “hocus pocus” (62:27–63:44).
• Douglas Adams, philosophers’ strikes, and the existential weight of bad puns in The Laughter Lift (67:49; 64:56).

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SUMMARY OF TONE AND STYLE

• The episode is filled with the hosts’ trademark wit, banter, intellectual curiosity, and occasional self-deprecation.
• Mark is detailed and erudite in his reviews, while Simon excels at framing questions and drawing out the best from guests and listeners.
• Steve Coogan provides warm anecdotes with dry humor and insight about the actor’s life.

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ESSENTIAL RECOMMENDATIONS

• Surviving Earth — Mark’s undisputed “film of the week.”
• Hokum — Recommended for horror fans who like a darkly comic Stephen King vibe.
• Listener should proceed with caution (and lowered expectations) towards The Devil Wears Prada 2.

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For more reviews, recommendations, and exclusive content, visit kermodeandmayo.com and consider joining as a Vanguardista on Patreon or ExtraTakes.

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

Which one was that?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, the one I just install on my phone before I go abroad so that I can save loads of money on roaming and data charges when I'm there.

[Mark Kermode]

Ah, yes, it's dead simple. Install the Saily app on your device and choose a data plan. There are multiple plans in over 200 destinations available at some of the best rates online. Then follow the instructions on the app to install the ESIM and it will be activated instantly on arrival.

[Simon Mayo]

So I don't have to buy a new SIM card when I get there?

[Mark Kermode]

Nope. There's no queuing at a dodgy airport kiosk. A Saily ESIM only needs to be installed once and then you use the same one for each country you visit.

[Simon Mayo]

Great. Does it let me skip all the other queues too?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, funnily enough, with Sali Ultra you can enjoy VIP travel perks like airport lounge access, fast track services, priority support, advanced online security and much more.

[Simon Mayo]

You'll be telling me we've got a voucher code next.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh yes, and don't forget to apply the code. Take to T A K E at checkout to get a 15% discount.

[Simon Mayo]

Howdy, partner.

[Mark Kermode]

Hello, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

I was just thinking the other day about the good old days.

[Mark Kermode]

What? The good old days in the Wild West. What's with the howdy partner thing?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I was just thinking that when we started out in the radio. Yeah, we were lucky because we had each other to bounce off. But most people don't have that support from a partner when they're starting out in business and. And they can get overwhelmed easily.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, very true. But they could try Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Mattel and Heinz to brands just getting started.

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

And if people haven't heard about your brand, Shopify helps you find your customers with easy to run email and social media campaigns.

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

Sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk take.

[Simon Mayo]

That's shopify.co.uk take. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[Mark Kermode]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in questions you can get

[Mark Kermode]

all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. You look very chipper, Mark. I'd say. Beautifully lit.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Like a million dollars, I would say. Thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm feeling good, actually. I'm feeling. I'm feeling really. The rowing machine is paying off.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, you've got a rowing machine?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. I hate it. I hate it. Yes. It is like something out of Ken Russell's the Devils. It is a medieval torture instrument.

[Simon Mayo]

That is correct.

[Mark Kermode]

And I absolutely hate every minute of being like. People keep saying, oh, you know, when you're doing all this fitness stuff, it's really great because after a while you get into the thing, you go, no, you don't. I. It's just horrible. But. But it works. Now, there's two things I need to show you. This is a gift that my sister Annie gave to the good lady professor. Her Indoors. Good lady professor indoors wanted to be absolutely clear that it was a gift to her rather than something that she got right. So Annie gave it to. Look, it's a. It's a service bell. And. And we said, well, what's that for? And he said, well, you know, it's like when you need Mark to do something, you know, you just go,

[Simon Mayo]

or do it again.

[Mark Kermode]

Hang on.

[Simon Mayo]

And the next word is. That is only funny to very old people.

[Mark Kermode]

Very, very old.

[Simon Mayo]

My bluff, presented by Robert Robinson.

[Mark Kermode]

Earlier on, as we were just getting stuff together, Simon Poole was reading a book by Albert Camus. And you made a joke.

[Simon Mayo]

He was looking at the pictures.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And you made a joke about. I'm a Camus, a mother Camus, which again, is a joke that only applies to very, very old listeners, even older

[Simon Mayo]

people, because flowers and Swan is the 1950s. And I only know about it because my parents used to listen to their records.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, I'm going, I've borrowed this bell. So I'm going to you. When I. When I. When I need something, we go. And the second, when you need something

[Simon Mayo]

from the production team.

[Mark Kermode]

From the production team. Just gonna do that. It's like, the second thing is you are sitting next to a handsomely appointed bookshelf. You can only see this if you're watching on. On YouTube. And what's happened is that you have had this beautiful bookshelf built, but you have filled it with what?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I haven't. But my. But the good lady ceramicist who's in charge of filling. It was her idea to get the bookshelf anyway. And she's rearranged my books as. So that basically it's only my books. You're only the books I have written.

[Steve Coogan]

Which.

[Mark Kermode]

Literally. A bookshelf of your own books.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, the unsold. The unsold works. Every single one of them, including Polish and Russian and Estonian books.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, you have got there a copy of the Korean edition of the movie Doctors, which is the most spectacular thing. We, you know, we had nothing to do with this at all, but it's an absolutely brilliant kind of 1950s science fiction cover.

[Simon Mayo]

Hasn't got. And it hasn't got us on the

[Mark Kermode]

COVID It hasn't got us on the COVID It's got like a. Like an image of a doctor with X ray eyes. And the title in Korean doesn't translate to the movie Doctors. It translates to something like Cinema goes to the hospital or Cinema needs medical attention. It's something very, very literal.

[Simon Mayo]

We should do some gigs in because I'm sure we're huge in particularly South Korea.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

We still have two listings in the North. We won't go and do a show for them because you never know who they work for. But yeah, we. The world tour. When we go on the cruise in the summer, we should go to South Korea. What do you think?

[Mark Kermode]

I'd be great. Absolutely.

[Simon Mayo]

I have one other interesting idea for you.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

You know how we birdsong when rude words turn up in clips? Yes. Well, I heard a bird today, which. And our bird song is very gentle. It's very British. It's British bird song. That's what it is. Whereas the words that they replace are kind of, obviously, by their very nature, they're vulgar words. They're offensive words. You know, people.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. The kind of words that Mark uses when attempting to set up his camera, for example.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, yes, exactly. But are you aware of the white bell bird of New Zealand?

[Mark Kermode]

I am not.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. I'm now going to play you the white bell bird of New Zealand. And this should if. When replacing swear words.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Simon Mayo]

I think. Okay, you ready?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

General atmos. Nice little fluffy bird.

[Steve Coogan]

Right. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

That's it.

[Mark Kermode]

What we go again.

[Steve Coogan]

That's a bird.

[Simon Mayo]

That's a bird. Now that replacing some big effing farmer. Yeah, a bit of effing and Jeff and a melon farmering. What we need is the white bell bird of New Zealand to come in and honk and squawk.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a remarkable noise. You know there are birds that imitate car alarms.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, we've got one in the street

[Mark Kermode]

over the road or. You sure that's not just a car alarm?

[Simon Mayo]

No, we have a lot of those.

[Mark Kermode]

But when it gets car, there's a

[Simon Mayo]

guy lives up the road and he opens his window and then we hear his parrot or whatever it is, you know, a parity kind of bird. And he does all kinds of sounds, including car alarms and telephones and all that kind of stuff. Very confusing. Unless, as you say, it's just everyone and people's phones. Anyway, when we eventually start to talk about films, what are we doing?

[Mark Kermode]

Well packed show. We have Devil wears Prada 2, which is the sequel two decades after the original Hokum, which is a horror movie. Surviving Earth, which is in cinemas now, opened last Friday. We didn't have room to fit it in. Last week's show was really good film. And then we're also going to be catching up with Lee Cronin's the Mummy in the. In the chart rundown.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Special guest is Steve Coogan who is back with a new series for Netflix called Legends. And in take two, what are you

[Mark Kermode]

up to there again?

[Simon Mayo]

Two.

[Mark Kermode]

Two absolute bangers. Mint, which is the TV series which has dropped. The whole of it is dropped on BBC iPlayer, all eight episodes. And there is a reissue in cinemas of Steven Spielberg's AI artificial intelligence. And I'm sorry, I actually started to choke up a bit even just saying it.

[Simon Mayo]

One of the films you change your mind about. Would that be fair?

[Mark Kermode]

It is. It's the one that I apologize to Steven Spielberg for. And then he. And then he. Well, I'll tell you this when we get to it, but then I think he compared me to one of the greatest film critics of the modern age.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, and then you told him that Jaws wasn't about a shark. And he said, of course it is.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that's right.

[Simon Mayo]

And you said pretty much. Because you made the film doesn't mean you know what it's.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly.

[Simon Mayo]

Also in take two you get even more of the really groovy stuff, including five question Film club available for you.

[Mark Kermode]

Three questions, your majesty. Thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

I didn't pause there. Apologies for that. No interest for Cold War, Silence of the Lambs, Heathers and with Nell and I amongst many others. Head over to Patreon if you'd like to join the club. Plus you get all the other top quality content ad free. Although I do think that the ads are some of the best work that we do.

[Mark Kermode]

They are.

[Simon Mayo]

So.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Also questions which Mark and I will answer. The question, why are all coffee cups in movies empty?

[Mark Kermode]

Actually, weirdly enough, there is an answer to that. Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

James in Kent has sent us an email. Okay. Dear Sensor and Sensibility, we're starting, you know, with the big stuff here.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

I really enjoyed the John Waters interview, particularly the discussion afterwards about free speech. I wanted to offer a brief thought on the phrase shouting fire in a crowded theater.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Because I think it simplifies the issue more than it should. Most people agree that knowingly creating a false emergency that could cause physical harm should not be protected speech. But that extreme example tells us little about harder cases. Unpopular political views, offensive speech, satire, blasphemy, or speech that causes social discomfort rather than immediate danger. The phrase comes from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes 1919 opinion in Schenck versus the United States. But the case had nothing to do with the theater. Charles Schenck and Elizabeth Baer were socialists convicted for distributing anti First World War draft leaflets. Holme theater analogy. While upholding their conviction, meaning the phrase was applied not to an imminent false alarm, but to political dissent. That history matters. The example we now invoke as a common sense limit on free speech was originally used to justify punishing anti war speech. When used in modern debates, it can make the hard questions feel settled when they aren't. The real issue is not whether speech can have consequences, but who gets to decide which speech is so dangerous it must be restricted. Shank should make us cautious about that cowardice. Up with uncomfortable questions and down with comfortable answers, says James in Kent. I think my issue with that and, and context and all of that, James is great. Thank you. Because I didn't know about Schenck versus the United States and that United States, that's obviously where it originally came from.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

But I don't think that's what John Waters was saying. I don't think he was particularly talking about Oliver Wendell Holmes or about anti war propaganda. I think he was literally saying he wants to be able to shout fire in a crowded theater. And free speech absolutists aren't talking about subtleties. They're talking about that. That's what I think.

[Mark Kermode]

But yes, I mean, thank you for the, for the email, which is very, very on point. I mean, the two phrases that are invoked. I mean, for me, this goes back to the 1980s and the no platforming debate. There's the, you know, George Orwell thing about.

[Simon Mayo]

You want to just. You've mentioned that a couple of times and I know what you're talking about. But on the no platform thing was everywhere in the 70s and 80s.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So no platform was. There was a huge discussion about it. In the case of like, let's take Manchester University, no platform meant you're not censoring somebody, but you're not giving them a platform. So, for example, you're going to. To not want Leon Britton to speak at the Manchester University Student Union. You're not censoring him, but you're not giving him a platform for his views. And then the opposition would say, well, you know, by. No platforming is a form of censorship. And then the two phrases then get invoked in response to that are the all world was paraphrased. You know, free speech is to mean anything, it must mean the freedom for people to say the things we don't want to hear. And then the oft quoted. Although I despise what you say, I will defend with my life. You're right to say it. So there was very, very heated debate about exactly what the nature of censorship was. For example, if Radio 1 doesn't play God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols, are they censoring it? Well, there is an argument which is, no, they're not censoring it. They're just not platforming it. And that's where no platform comes from. So there is a kind of. There is a. There is a woolly area around what actually censoring speech means. I think you're completely right in the case of John Waters, because he was being, you know, possibly facetious, but what he was saying was, I ought to be able to shout fire in a theater. Meaning, you know, that's. That is a crisis. Yeah, Meaning. Meaning literally that. But it's one of the things I would say. I say this on a serious note, which I'll then immediately abandon for the rest of the program that when people talk about freedom of speech, it is a very complicated issue. It is not a Twitterable issue. It is not something that can be solved with slogans. Because there is a really complex issue of what freedom of speech actually means.

[Simon Mayo]

Correspondencevin.com and welcome to the show. But we might, you know, that might. But again, this podcast might not be the place to discuss that, but.

[Mark Kermode]

No, but it's a better place to discuss it than Twitter, Simon.

[Simon Mayo]

Now that. That is. That is true. So correspondence. Kevin.america.com okay, so there's a big film. I've seen it on a bus. Devil Wears Prada.

[Mark Kermode]

Two. Two. Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So, you know, two decades after the release of David Frankel's hugely successful adaptation of Lauren Weisberger's It's a Romana Clef. You know, Romana Clef is a kind of fictional story. With a covert basis in reality. So the book was written by someone who had worked as an assistant to American Vogue editor Anna Wintour. And in the novel, Andy Sachs is a Browns University graduate. Who works for Miranda Priestley. Who is scary editor of Runway magazine. And the titular devil. So the whole thing was seen to be, you know, a story about her time working for Anna Wintour. And on screen, those roles were perfectly filled by Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep. With Emily Blunt as Miranda's initial assistant. Emily Charlton. And Stanley Tucci as Runway fashion editor Nigel Kipling. Who effectively kind of takes Andy under his wing. So all of those main characters are back for this sequel. As is screenwriter Alien Brush McKenna. This time working for an original story. There was a There was a sequel novel in 2013, which was revenge. Where's Prada? The Devil Returns. Anyway, so story is 20 years after the original film story. Andy is now a respected journalist. Who finds herself in need of a job. At exactly the same moment that Runway finds itself in need of some journalistic credibility. So a few creaky plot contrivances later. Andy is back at Runway as the features editor. To the disdain of Miranda. Who initially can't remember who she is. And then wishes that she could forget her. Miranda, incidentally, now has a lovely and benign husband. Played by Kenneth Branagh. Who seems to exist along with Andy's love interest in a completely different movie. Anyway, Nigel is once again a somewhat comforting presence. As for Emily Blunt's character, she is now Dior. And loving the chance to throw some weight around his Eclipse. Lots to discuss. Mm. Where would you like to start?

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

So I am the new features editor at Runway.

[Simon Mayo]

No, you're not.

[Mark Kermode]

Are you serious?

[Simon Mayo]

Wow.

[Mark Kermode]

Wonders never cease. No, I'm actually a journalist now.

[Simon Mayo]

I've been published in doesn't matter. Anyway, we are all well aware that running that story was a mistake. And are taking immediate steps. I cannot actually get over this.

[Mark Kermode]

It's really remarkable. A senior editor at Runway you have. We're all so thrilled. You know what's funny is you've changed. You have. You're much more confident. Kept those eyebrows though, didn't you?

[Simon Mayo]

Can I just ask you a question about that clip?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, go ahead.

[Simon Mayo]

I believe I haven't seen the movie. That was Stanley Tucci going. Mm, wasn't it?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And even though that was his Only contribution to that clip. It kind of told you everything about where he was in that conversation with no one words.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, absolutely. So Emily has also managed to bag herself an extremely wealthy sugar daddy, Benji, who may be in a position to make her even more of a power player. Benji is the ex husband of Lucy L's Sasha Barnes, who is one of the richest and most powerful women on earth, with whom Miranda Priestley would love to get an in to get an interview. And she similarly has the ability to pull strings because of her wealth, as did Miranda's mentor, the owner of Runway, Ira, who then inconveniently drops dead, leaving his altogether less tolerable son Jay to take over the business and scupper Miranda's empire climbing plans. And the first thing you notice from this is there is an awful lot of plot. I mean most of it feels entirely performative and perfunctory. I mean it is just a way of getting characters that you knew and enjoyed 20 years ago back into situations in which they can do, do the thing that you enjoyed 20 years ago. Whilst I mean seriously that, you know, the plot of the original is really simple, right? Wide eyed graduate enters the world of fashion, encounters dragon like presence who scares and humiliates her. But finally she comes to understand her during the course of the drama. Right, this is just a bunch of. I'm sorry, I don't believe a word of any of this. In terms of the. Of the machinations of the plot, none of it rings true. I can see what you're trying to do. You're just trying to put everybody back together on screen. And from the opening scene of this, in which Andy receives an award for her hard hitting journalism and immediately gets fired by the magazine, which is cutting all its journalists contemporary to the final denouement in which. Can you have. Final denouement. That's probably a tautology, whatever it is, in which Andy and Moran can you have a. Yeah, the denim is a bit just before the film anyway, but to the bit at the end when there's this whole thing that the two of them team up together to pull this very unbelievable ace card out of their Louis Vuitton handbags. None of the plot, none of the plot makes any sense at all, at all. It is literally just there to put the characters in the spaces together. That is kind of, you know, that's all right. That's what happens with sequels. Disappointingly so. However, the problem with this is that. Well, the first thing is, do you remember in the original film there is a great Scene in which Miranda Priestley, who is this, you know, I said dragon like presence, does this really brilliant speech in which Andy says, you know, this whole thing is all irrelevant. And she says, oh, oh really, it's irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with you. It's got nothing to do with the real world. Which is kind of amusing because you think that you've got, you know, you're exempt from all this fashion stuff. But that lumpy blue sweater that you're wearing, do you know how that got there? And then she does this thing about that sweater was actually selected for you by the people in this room because that sweater is not blue, it's actually cerulean. And that was something that was. And she does this whole kind of speech about how the, the kind of apparently functional sweater that Andy is wearing comes from this other. This whole kind of, you know, thousands of jobs within the fashion industry. And it's a great scene. And the reason it's a great scene is because it gives the sort of non nominal villain of the piece, the person who throws their coat at assistance and behaves really badly, an argument for why they are who they are. And you know, it does the thing about. It kind of upends things. It's a bad comparison. But it's like the thing in, in the Dark Knight in which Joker says to Batman, don't do that. Don't do that. You and I are the same person. And does that great thing about, you know, it's one of those things. There is nothing of that caliber in the sequel. What there is is a couple of opportunities for Meryl Streep to do that haughty imperial thing that she does so well. I mean, the scene, the beginning, in which Andy is in the office and she doesn't even recognize her is really, really funny. Then there is some completely unnecessary and utterly unbelievable world turned upside down stuff in which they end up having to travel coach for the first time. And she's appalled by, you know, what it's like not being in first class. Then there's this nod to the change in the world from print journalism to online journalism and the stuff about journalism generally being under attack and that is sort of there in order to give it a inverted commas contemporary edge. But I don't believe any of it. It's just zeitgeisty window dressing. As for Emily Blunt, I think she is poorly underserved by a script which kind of reduces her just to the level of caricature which she wasn't in the first Film. And then there's the big set pieces. There's a big set pie in which Lady Gaga performs a song which just reminded me of Liza Minnelli coming out at the wedding in Sex and the City 2. Most importantly, it's neither funny nor biting enough to earn its keep. And watching this, you kind of understand why it is it took such a long time for the sequel to come about. Because for a long time, the key cast members said they didn't want to do it, and then now they have done it, you go, well, you might have been right the first time. None of which is to say that this isn't going to be a hit. I mean, there is, you know, when you have the kind of talent that you've got on screen and those characters, of course, there are bits of it that are fun and people will go and they'll, you know. But here's the thing. Whilst the original is still memorable 20 years later, this is going to be forgotten 20 minutes after you've seen it. You might have a perfectly fine time in the time that you're watching it, but 20 minutes later, you're going to be very, very hard pressed to repeat the plot. It is not going to inspire any lumpy blue jumpers somewhere down the line. It is very, very. All right.

[Simon Mayo]

Because of the proximity of my new bookshelves, I've just. I just found the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. So this is like. Like an actual look. It's got Gil gold pages at the end. I've looked up to Newmore go, okay. The unraveling of the complications of a plot or of a confused situational mystery, the final resolution of a play, novel, or other narrative. It often follows the climax.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, it follows the climax. Okay, fine. Typically. Typically fine. So we've probably been. Well, I've probably been misusing that word in that case. This is like an education, this program.

[Simon Mayo]

It's all because of the bookshelf. Would you. Would you say that hokum is a word to describe Devil Wears Prize?

[Mark Kermode]

Hokum is a film which is out this week. I know.

[Simon Mayo]

I was wondering if I could combine the two effortlessly.

[Mark Kermode]

It's really funny because if people aren't watching you on the. On. On the YouTube thing, they didn't see what you. When you were just saying that you look like you were voguing, you literally went like that to explain tying the two things together. You look like you were throwing some moves.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so you're not gonna go with my gift of hokum?

[Mark Kermode]

It's just a separate film if it works for you, yes, Simon, I would say it's Hokum.

[Simon Mayo]

What else are we talking about next?

[Mark Kermode]

Then we're going to be talking about a film called Hokum, obviously a film called Surviving Earth. We're going to be talking to Steve Coogan about his new TV series, which we're going to review next week. And we'll be doing the Laughter Lift and the Chance.

[Simon Mayo]

Excellent. All coming up. It's time to refresh your yard during Spring Backyard Days at the Home Depot. Get low prices guaranteed on propane grills starting at $179 like the next grill 3 burner gas grill.

[Mark Kermode]

Or get $50 off a select Weber spirit grill.

[Simon Mayo]

And bring big flavor to your backyard. Then set the scene with Hampton Bay string lights that bring it all together. Shop Spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot now through May 6th. Exquisite supply seehomedepot.com Pricematch for details. Fabio Sementilli. Big hearts, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche.

[Mark Kermode]

He was like a wizard behind the chair.

[Simon Mayo]

The killers came for Fabio in his own backyard.

[Mark Kermode]

You can't rationalize it.

[Simon Mayo]

You can't figure it out.

[Mark Kermode]

There was rampant speculation about everything, but

[Simon Mayo]

every wild theory was wrong because the

[Mark Kermode]

truth was even more unbelievable. What is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking, the uncertainty of not knowing. Knowing is a form of agony.

[Simon Mayo]

From Sony Music Entertainment and novel. This is Cut Color Kill.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm Jonathan Hirsch.

[Simon Mayo]

Cut Color Kill is available now on the binge.

[Mark Kermode]

Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to the binge can listen to

[Simon Mayo]

all episodes all at once ad free. Okay, here we are with the box office top 10, starting confusingly at number 10 with Akira, which, which I think

[Mark Kermode]

is, you know, absolutely terrific. And it's, it, it's very good that it's that it's back in cinemas. The interesting thing we were talking about before was they didn't get the live action thing off the ground. And the reason they didn't was because how could you do that live action when the animation is so great? And I think people have been see it on, on the IMAX screen, which is great because a lot of people will only ever have seen it on on home viewing.

[Simon Mayo]

Number nine here, number 17 in America, Fight Club. It's the 4K restoration which we talked about last week.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I mean, I really like Fight Club. I think it's very good fun. It's amazing that it's now 15 certificate as I said, kids, they don't know they're born. Number eight is Exit eight, which I kind of enjoyed. You know, I thought it was. It. It is. It's an adaptation of a computer game which is known for its simplicity, but I kind of quite like the simplicity of the setup, and I think it does it rather well.

[Simon Mayo]

Number seven, a new entry, Rose of Nevada.

[Mark Kermode]

Now, look at this. The weekend total for Rose of Nevada is 172,000. I mean, I know they opened it fairly wide, but that's a. That's a very, very good opening weekend. And I'm just. I mean, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled that a film made by a Cornish filmmaker on Wind Up Up Clockwork Camera has. Is a top 10 success. It's great. It is my favorite film of the year so far. I'd be surprised, but also delighted if I see anything else of that caliber this year. I mean, it's a really remarkable piece of work and just great that it's in at number seven. Hooray. Hooray.

[Simon Mayo]

Jamie from Stanmore sends a photograph of a very large poster for Rose of Nevada on the side of a London bus.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, right.

[Simon Mayo]

And says, now that Rose of Nevada has been advertised on the side of buses in London, can we now say that films advertise on the side of buses? And our. Excellent. This goes back a very long way to when we. I think we came up with a conclusion that if it's on the side of a bus, it's a bit pants.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, but we. We.

[Simon Mayo]

Not anymore.

[Mark Kermode]

We whis. No, hold on. You've forgotten something. We whisked through that when we appeared on the side of a bus. Precisely. So, Simon, when we came to Weyland Yutani and we became Comer de Meo's take, there were massive adverts on the side of buses. At which point we officially withdrew the. If it's on the side of a bus, it's pants. All right, we saw the light.

[Simon Mayo]

Becky and Dan say. My husband and I went. So this is mainly Becky, I think my husband and I went to watch Rose of Nevada last night at our favorite cinema, the wonderful Newlyn film house. I have to say this. This email is basically written by you.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. All right.

[Simon Mayo]

We loved it. We've been fans of Mark Jenkins filmmaking style since the brilliant bait, and this latest venture is wonderful. We were utterly engrossed from start to finish. The fishing scenes were intense and visceral. The atmosphere and emotion throughout beautifully captured. And the mystery of the plot has kept us thinking and talking. About it the sign of a good film. Watching it in the fishing village of Newlyn where some of the filming took place added to the effect. We both agree it would be good to watch again as there were so many details that we might have missed first time. Thanks for the excellent podcast. Best wishes from deepest Cornwall, Becky and Dan, AKA Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, basically, yeah, I didn't write that, but you're absolutely right. I, I could, I could well have done because I can walk to the Newton Film House from my front door.

[Simon Mayo]

And just above Rose of Nevada at number six is the Magic Faraway Tree,

[Mark Kermode]

which I really enjoyed and it's doing really well and we've had so many emails from. People have gone to see it, you know, they've gone out for a family outing and really, really enjoyed it. It's a terrific success.

[Simon Mayo]

And number five, number four in America is Lee Cronin's the Mummy.

[Mark Kermode]

So this came out when we were off from the pre records and sort of preview screened in advance, so I couldn't review it. So I have now seen it. So do you want a quick capsule review of the Mummy? Lee Cronin's the Mummy Yes. And.

[Simon Mayo]

And also we've got a clip, I

[Mark Kermode]

think we have, yeah. So I mean, presumably calling it Lee Cronin's the Mummy, you know, to distinguish it from the Universal's the Mummy or, you know, or any of the other mummy of Tom Cruise and the Mummy, but also because it isn't really a mummy movie at all, as I said when it was in the charts last time, there was one reviewer called it the Exorcist with Bandages. And that is what it is. It is a film which includes the memorable line, I'm not here to talk about taxes, I'm here to talk about Egyptian hieroglyphics. That is actually a line in the film. So Jack Ren and I Costa are a TV journalist and partner whose daughter Katie gets spirited away when they're on an assignment in Cairo. There's this scary lady who gives her a secret friend at the end of the garden, gives her a nectarine from which a demonic insect emerges, goes into a child, disappears. Eight years later, child turns up after there's a plane crash which has got a sarcophagus in it. They open the sarcophagus and there is the bandaged child who is still alive but now looking like, well, honestly, looking like Reagan in the Exorcist. The family take her back, but she's in this inverted commas, locked in catatonic state. And it soon Becomes clear that, as with Regan in the Exorcist, little girl has legions of problems. Unlike Exorcist, when the scariest moments are all those moments when you can't figure out whether it's, you know, is it Reagan or is it Pazuzu? This goes absolutely Lollapazuzu from. From the beginning. So there's loads and loads of Exorcist stuff. Here is a quick clip. Have a quick listen.

[Simon Mayo]

It's very important you fully prepare yourselves for what you're about to see. No sudden moves, no loud noises.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey, Butterfly. It's mom and dad. Yeah, we are here. We're here. She's been missing for eight years. What was our daughter doing in a 3,000 year old sarcophagus?

[Simon Mayo]

She just needs our care and lots of love.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

What was she doing?

[Mark Kermode]

What was our daughter doing in a 3,000 year old sarcophagus? I'm not here to talk about taxes. I'm here to talk about Egyptian hieroglyphics. So look, I mean, Lee Cronin is an interesting filmmaker as far as this is concerned. I mean, I started originally just ticking off the Exorcist Revenant. So, you know, the facial disfigurement, which echoes Dick Smith's lopsided possession makeup. The fact that the nightgown appears to be completely based on Reagan. When she first awakens out the thing and she's contorting and that's exact. And then there's a kind of POV and change. I mean, it's literally like it's that shot from the Exorcist. That shot from the Exorcist. Levitation, spewing, distended tongue. The mother is not going to have her in an institution, you know, I mean, fine. It's perfectly perfunctory and functional. It's not great by any means. It's not terrible by any means. I mean, all of it is a lot better than Exorcist Believer. I mean, if we're going to have modern updates of the Exorcist, I'd rather have this than Exorcist Believer. The Scary Girl thing obviously has been done a million times in a million movies. Everything From Ringu to M3 gun, there's a. There's also a lot of other nods. There's a bit of Wes Craven's People under the Stairs. You know, they're in the walls. There's a bit of the Omen, the Wolves at the Gate. There's a bit of Spielberg's ET in it. There's A bit of Changeling. There's a bit of Silence of the Lambs, there's a bit of Exorcist 3 with Mrs. Clayley on the ceiling. And the longer it goes on, the sillier it gets. And it is way, way, way too long. But it's just, it's funny. I've, I've kind of got to the point that I now think, okay, people are just doing, they're just doing Exorcist riffs and is it better or worse than the actual Exorcist sequels? And in this case it's better. I mean it's not much better, but it is better.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, that's at number five. So the drama is at number four,

[Mark Kermode]

which I really, really enjoyed. That is shaping up as one of my films of the year.

[Simon Mayo]

Number three here and number three over there, Project Hail Mary. One of one of the big hitters in this week's top 10.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm just, I am sort of slightly surprised that you didn't like it more than you did. But I do understand the thing about. It's because you just literally finished reading the book and the book is so science rich. Yeah, I mean it, yeah, it's, it's, it isn't the book, but I haven't read the book. But I think it is a really, really good film.

[Simon Mayo]

Number two here, number two there is the Super Mario Galaxy movie which I

[Mark Kermode]

just thought was rubbish.

[Simon Mayo]

And number one pretty much everywhere. Yeah, I think is, is Michael. And I mean just looking at the weekend total, it took more than everything else put together. It did by some, by some way.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not just number one, it's very number one. And I, and before, I'm sure we have some emails, but before we do, I would just like to refer you to the fact they did say when I reviewed it and I didn't like it at all, that it's, you know, it may well be a bit, a very big hit. So there we are.

[Simon Mayo]

And so it turns out to be. Matthew says. I admit I'm biased as I'm a huge Jackson fan, but I absolutely loved Michael. Great performances, particularly from Michael and Joe Jackson. I mean, I think you mean Jafar and Colman Domingo. But anyway the film captured the era well and perfectly embodied Jackson's personality. A joyful cinema experience. Stephanie in Hertfordshire. I went to see Michael on release day with my 17 year old film student daughter Maggie at my local World of Cine in Hemel Hempstead. I loved and loathed the film in equal measure. Great performances but far too rose tinted. My daughter turned to me at the end and said, he was so nice, wasn't he? To which I said that perhaps he was at the start. I feel quite strange about the film since I was 8 years old when BAD was released. So a huge fan growing up. I still have my program from the Bad tour. In later years I felt a big sense of betrayal by Michael Jackson and I guess that's how I feel about the film now and perhaps how my daughter will feel when she learns the true story. I think a lot of people are happy to ignore the elephant not in the film film. People were singing and tapping along in our screening. See you in December at the live show as we have for the last two years. Okay, thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

Great, see you then. Thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

And Nick in Leeds says, Dear Tito and Jermaine, this jaw dropping hagiography represents the culmination of surely the most cynically relentless attempt to un. Cancel somebody in the history of popular culture. Michael is a work of soulless avarice, a furious attempt to overturn the judgment of history and grease the wheels of a billion dollar juggernaut that both. That both demise and disgrace have ground to a juddering halt. The film is more sanitized and shallow than Bohemian Rhapsody and that's saying something. But without that film's Oscar winning star turn as its center anchor. I think a lot of the guy I like a lot of the guys music. Doesn't everyone but these days find it impossible to listen to it without the shadow of those other matters clouding my thoughts. It is ghoulish indeed, which some may say is much like the man himself. Something any honest biopic has a moral duty to acknowledge if not outright wrestle with. And this film fails to do so. So I guess that's a representative example but. But interesting, particularly Stephanie's one that she went with her daughter and loved it and loathed it in equal measure. Which feels about right, don't you think?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I mean I briefly bumped into Robbie Colin at the screening of Devil Was Prada too. And we had a very quick discussion about it and Robbie said something that kind of echoes what I was saying, which was that in what it does, it does it perfectly well. It's, you know, it is. It is a nuts and bolts pot biped with a good central performance and absolutely banging tunes. But you can't, in my opinion, you can't ignore the story that it's not telling. And I think that having, I mean I've seen enough pop biopics that gloss over the darker aspects of a, of a pop star's life. But in the case of this, because it is very, very recent history and it is, it is so in the public consciousness, no matter what you think about the allegations, you can't pretend they just simply don't exist. The other thing I would say is I think that this goes further than that in that it actually tries to sanctify Michael. It does have him as, oh, I've got this gift that I can save the world. And it's, yeah, no, that's not good enough. I have absolutely no idea what they're now going to do because the figures suggest that you have to do a second movie. Now how are you going to do it? You know, what, what are you going to do for an encore?

[Simon Mayo]

Right?

[Mark Kermode]

Because if you pick up at the end of this film and you do the next film, what have you got? You've got him hanging a baby over the side of a hotel balcony. You've got court cases, you've got the weird business with Lisa Marie Presley, you've got the, the pop videos in which his face doesn't appear because, you know, I mean, I mean, hey, you want to make that film, go to it. But the numbers say you have to.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, but if you make that film, you won't have the blessing and therefore you won't have the music.

[Mark Kermode]

Precise. Precisely. The phrase that I use when I view it is watching it, I felt very, very uncomfortable because I think I, I think you can't make that movie and pretend that none of this stuff exists.

[Simon Mayo]

We have further discussion on films that have been out for a while in the overflow car park intake 2 available ad free on Patreon. And you'll be able to enjoy some of the very normal comments from Michael Jackson fans. Really apologists on our YouTube channel

[Mark Kermode]

takes

[Simon Mayo]

and cold comfort in this week's Take Ultra.

[Mark Kermode]

Right? You tell yourself no one wants your

[Simon Mayo]

college era band to use.

[Mark Kermode]

But on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back.

[Simon Mayo]

Sell them easily on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest.

[Mark Kermode]

Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash start selling on Depop where taste recognize Predator

[Simon Mayo]

Badlands now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus here you're not the predator, you're the prey.

[Mark Kermode]

Pray, pray, pray, pray.

[Simon Mayo]

Critics are saying it's epic, stunning and breathtaking. Many have come here, none have survived. Predator Badlands, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. Rated PG 13. Okay, let's introduce you to our special guest this week. Aside from creating one of the most iconic characters in British comedy, Steve Coogan's acting career has, in case you've forgotten, seen him in 24 Hour Party People as Tony Wilson, around the World in 80 Days, Tropic Thunder, Philomena, which he co wrote and starred along alongside Judi Dench, the Look of Love, Stan and Ollie, the Trip with Rob Bryden, the Reckoning, where he plays Jimmy Savile, Chivalry. And now Legends for Netflix, which comes out on May 7th. You'll hear our conversation with Steve Coogan after this clip from the show.

[Steve Coogan]

A war has started out there. People will read about it. I watch it on their tv. But we won't. We'll be too busy fighting.

[Mark Kermode]

So it's heroin.

[Steve Coogan]

It's heroin.

[Mark Kermode]

And it's just us.

[Steve Coogan]

It's just us.

[Mark Kermode]

Sorry, when you say war, what exactly might that entail?

[Steve Coogan]

Well, we work out how it's coming in and then we, we stop it coming in.

[Simon Mayo]

And that's a clip from Legends. Steve Coogan, welcome to the show. Thank you.

[Steve Coogan]

Very happy to be here.

[Simon Mayo]

How are you?

[Steve Coogan]

I'm good.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Steve Coogan]

Life's treated me pretty well.

[Simon Mayo]

You seem to be incredibly busy. You seem to be having some really fantastic roles.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah, I'm sort of, I think as I'm getting older, I'm sort of starting to get those kind of interesting character roles. That one of the upsides of aging and also something else I've noticed is that younger people who liked me when they were not professional have now got jobs and careers and give me work. So that's another upside.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Another benefit of aging. So Legends is new on Netflix. It's a terrific series. Introduce us to the world of legends, Steve.

[Steve Coogan]

I play the head of Customs, set in the 90s, loosely based on a true story. There was a lot of heroin knocking around in the early 90s, not that I know anything about that, but yeah, it was all pervasive. And there was a sort of a war on drugs. And it was the last hurrah of the Thatcher era, if you like, late 80s. And there was this a lot of rhetoric about clamping down on these huge influx and there was a rise in the number of deaths and heroin seems to be flooding the streets of the country. And what happened was this. The government tasked the customs people with investigating and trying to stop the drugs coming to the country. So basically what happened is they were given a lot of leeway when a lot of them went undercover, not having been undercover before. So it was almost like taking people off checking bags at Heathrow and training them to be undercover detectives effectively and infiltrating these drug gangs, which is more or less what happened. So it sort of charts that period. Sort of like a bunch of mavericks, really, who have to get professional.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, they have to get professional very quickly because these are very much ordinary officers. I mean, this seems to be part of the charm and the thrill of this series is these are not people who've had any kind of career in

[Mark Kermode]

the police or the army or whatever.

[Simon Mayo]

These are civil servants. A point that is made in the show. These are ordinary people.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah, I play the sort of the head honcho who sort of has to train them to be undercover, having once gone undercover myself. In the story, I play Don. This is slightly jaded older civil servant who doesn't really take, doesn't suffer fool's gladly. So it was a lot of fun for me to be sort of immersed in this world and to play the sort of controller of operations. And this really good cast, Tom Burke was fantastic. Really great supporting cast. Half it set in Liverpool, half it set in around London, Folkestone. And then we go off to Turkey to of infiltrate this drugs gang. So it's quite earthy. The script's really well written by Niall Forsyth. It's sort of quite edgy, it's witty, it doesn't tell, it's not too sanctimonious, too serious. But it is a drama. But there's a nice lightness of touch to the script, which is why I was interested in doing it. And for me it's always a vacation when I'm just an actor for hire. All I have to do is turn up and say the words, not bump into the furniture and try and make a good fist of the job.

[Simon Mayo]

Tell us more about Don. So he's the head of operations, he's managing the team.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

You're using your normal voice, I think, aren't you?

[Steve Coogan]

But how I'm using a version of more. I mean, I went to drama school where they tried to hammer it out and turn me into a received pronunciation person, which I did for a few years and then I got tired of it and went back to being a northerner. But yeah, it's probably the closest any role I've done to using my own accent. I sort of slightly northern it up a bit more than it is. But it was very, very close to me. It was quite easy. You know, it's like one of those roles that for me is like slipping on an old jacket. I felt very comfortable in it. It wasn't a big stretch for me. I didn't have to spend months and months pretending to be head of Customs to get where I needed to be.

[Simon Mayo]

You can be a civil servant quite

[Mark Kermode]

easily, Steve, Is that what you're saying?

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah. Thanks. The nicest thing anyone's ever said to

[Simon Mayo]

me, what has happened to Don in the past, because it's a very moving scene where you're having like a late night dinner with Tom Burke and as you say, he's absolutely fantastic. And you're basically saying, you know, you might not come out of this. It's called Legends, obviously, because that's the name that when you adopt a different character, which these ordinary officers have to have to do to infiltrate the gangs in Liverpool, in London. But clearly Don is a damaged guy by the fact that he has been undercover. What do we know about him?

[Steve Coogan]

First of all, you're right in saying that these officers have to go deep undercover, which means they have to assume new identities and have deep backgrounds that will survive any kind of scrutiny if they're to survive. So they need to live and breathe their roles. And part of Don's story is that he did this in the past. And the way to survive is you become so subsumed in this alter ego that you create that you lose yourself. And in fact, that's what we find happens to Don, had happened to him in the past, and he sort of paid the price for that. We know he has a daughter we never see and a marriage that didn't work out, but he sort of paid the price for that. And also, I think Don's character represents that sort of that older male kind of predisposition for not really talking about how you feel. He's sincere and straightforward and honest about things, but not someone who would readily open up or probably seek any kind of therapy. You know, PTSD and all that stuff is those terms weren't really used 30 years ago. They're currently very in vogue, but not then. So he sort of represents that kind of. Of someone struggling partly with his. With his identity.

[Simon Mayo]

So. So Donna's head of operations says to all these new people that they have to commit to the Legend, this other character, and they have to lean into it under stress. And this is a very kind of non actually question, but I wonder if that's something that's Sort of familiar that when you are playing another part, particularly if you're playing a part of someone who has actually existed in the past, that you have to lean into it to make it believable.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah, I've played. I think I count. I played 11. I think I played 11 real people who were real in my career and some. Some dead, some living or some who were alive when I played them. And some are easier than others. But you have to. You have to sort of. I mean, all actors have different approaches. I'm not really what you call a method actor. I don't have to have my lunch as the character when I'm on set. You know, I can step out of it, thank God. I mean, I played Jimmy Savile, so I wasn't gonna wander around at lunchtime pretending to be Jimmy Savile. It wouldn't have been appropriate. So fortunately, that wasn't my method. But to some extent, really, when I play a character, it's. You sort of jump in with both feet, you know, like you're sort of jumping off a cliff into the sea or something. You just hold your nose. You just go for it and don't. Sometimes. Sometimes it helps to not overthink it, but just to sort of move forward. There's an old adage in my business, which is ready, fire, aim, and. And that's what. That's what I tend to do when I'm playing any kind of character is sort of run at it and figure it out, hopefully before I get there.

[Simon Mayo]

And most recently seen as Mick McCarthy in Saipan, which Mark. So Mark hasn't seen Legend, but Mark has seen saipan, the Mick McCarthy character. How was that quite an easy fit for you?

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah, I mean, I spoke to Mick. He's not too pleased with the film. I don't think he's. Although he spared me any ignominy. But. But I did talk to him and. And I had to sort of do my interpretation of what I thought he is and. Or he was. It wasn't a great stretch. He's part. Mick McCarthy's part of the Irish diaspora. He's a Northerner. I mean, I ticked both those boxes. So it didn't feel like a huge stretch. I felt like from all the sort of footage and everything that garnered, that his character is very distinct from Roy Keane. And this argument, this face off between these two characters and, you know, was something I could see went beyond football.

[Mark Kermode]

The thing that's fascinating about Saipan is Steve, as you know, what I know about football wouldn't fill the back of a postage stamp. And I knew nothing at all about the Saipan incident, as it is referred to. I've been told by people, you know, if you're in Ireland, it was an absolute national event.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

What I did know was that Glenn Laban and Lisa Barostas are two of my favorite filmmakers. I love their movies. I love Good Vibrations, I love Ordinary. Love, Love. And I think that they, that what that film did for somebody who did not know any. I, I don't think I'd heard of any of the people in it. I knew nothing about the incident. It works as a drama. So it's not. Just the thing about playing a real life character is it's making sure that the drama works, even if you don't know the story.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I mean, I wasn't, I didn't know a huge amount about football. I have a lot. I'm from a big family and all my sibling brothers are all mad football heads, as is my mother, but I'm not really. So it had to work for me that way. I think that you, you know, Lisa, who does most of the talking on set in that sort of husband and wife duo, is very intuitive and I felt very comfortable with her. I mean, I worked with both of them again in a heartbeat. They made life very. They fit, make things feel just really natural and workmanlike and yeah, I love them. It was, you know, I mean, I sort of, I remember when they were making Good Vibrations, I saw that script and I think I was supposed to do something in it, but I wasn't available. But I loved that movie as well. And so it was quite an easy choice for me to, to, to join that, that, this of Mick and Roy Saipan project because essentially, because if it had just been about football, I'm not sure I would have been interested, but because it was about national identity, what your attitudes should be, whether you're inclusive, whether you're with your colleagues, whether you're collegiate or you're a one man band, how you view your life. There's no right or wrong. Mick McCarthy isn't right or wrong and neither is Roy Keane. So it's. I always think a good film is a kind of film where when you're leaving the cinema, if you're with someone else, you're. You're still discussing it and deciding what point of view you think was the right one. And that's, that's always, that's always a result. People are asking questions.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm just delighted to hear that you really enjoyed working with Lisa and Glenn because I think they are two of the best filmmakers working at the moment and I think they, their names should be more widely known because I think they're really terrific.

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I said they remind me a little bit of, they have a sort of a lightness of touch about stuff that's really, they remind me a bit of Bill Forsyth again, one of my favorite filmmakers. Yeah. That they have that sort of, it's sort of deep waters lightly skipped over.

[Mark Kermode]

Great phrase, Great phrase.

[Simon Mayo]

I like that. Like that. So Saipan is out and Legends is on Netflix and is available from May 7th. Steve, always a pleasure. Thank you very much indeed.

[Steve Coogan]

Cheers. Enjoyed it.

[Simon Mayo]

Steve Coogan obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

Steve Coogan obviously.

[Simon Mayo]

Couldn't be anyone else talking about this new show Legends.

[Mark Kermode]

Now.

[Simon Mayo]

We're gonna, you'll do a proper review next week.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. So since we recorded that interview, because that was, that interview was recorded a couple of weeks ago. I have now seen Legends. We can't review it yet because it's under embargo until, until next week. But I don't think it's going to be because you, you kind of implied this in the thing that you enjoyed, you enjoyed it very much and you told me that before. I, I, I, I, I, I watched it and, and I, I have lots to say about it, but the, the headline is I enjoyed it very much as well.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. Yes. And I think I, when I started. So we're talking like literally the first two. This isn't the review. I don't think I'm breaking an embargo.

[Mark Kermode]

No. No.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, if it's positive vibes, what are they going to be?

[Mark Kermode]

Get over it.

[Simon Mayo]

The first two or three minutes, I thought, oh, have I seen, I've, we've seen this before. And then because as you heard in, in the, because these, these aren't Cops Undercover, it just felt even more scary the fact that these were literally office

[Mark Kermode]

workers who precisely, precisely volunteered to do

[Simon Mayo]

something which was completely out of their comfort zone.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

But if you're going to do that, be Tom Burke.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, exactly. It is a drama about people out of their depth. And, and, and as you say, that, that, that kind of cranks up the tension because you're not expecting any of them to deal with it. It particularly well because they're not prepared.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. So that will be reviewed on next week's program. The show is called Legends. Much to come on that. And when you've seen it. Correspondencecovenamer.com what is out that you can

[Mark Kermode]

review Mark Hokum, as you kind of alluded to before when you were voguing after The Devil Wears Prada 2 review. So this is a pretty effective haunted house horror from Irish director and writer Damien McCarthy who made caveat and Oddity. There is more than a touch of ste. Stephen King about this and I, I didn't know this when I saw it, but this is billed as from the producer of Weapons. And of course Weapons was very, very Stephen King. So this was shot in West Cork, I think shot last year. Played to enthusiastic reception at south by Southwest in March of this year. Stars Adam Scott. Adam Scott, who you will know as Ben from Parks and Recreation or from Mark from Severance, which I think is actually a more important connection. He's on Bowman, who is in the process. He's a writer who is in the process of finishing a series of books that he's written. And the series looks set to finish on a very dark, open endedly downbeat note that seems to represent the writer's own state of mind. He has traveled to Ireland to the hotel where his parents came when they were first married. He has brought their ashes with him.

[Simon Mayo]

Him.

[Mark Kermode]

He's also brought a very bad attitude. He's rude, he's dismissive to everyone. And the hotel, kind of, you know, an old hotel, rural hotel, seems to mirror his, his despondency and his anger. And soon he learns that the hotel is said to be haunted. And indeed the honeymoon suite is gated off. Completely gated off. No one is allowed to go in there, there ever. And then things start to get properly weird. Here is a. Here's a clip from the trailer. Fado F

[Simon Mayo]

Long, long ago, deep in

[Mark Kermode]

the woods, there lived is your kids. No, don't talk to strangers.

[Steve Coogan]

There are worse things than strangers out there.

[Simon Mayo]

Yank.

[Mark Kermode]

It's just been a crack. Can I get a room as far away from the crack as possible?

[Simon Mayo]

Bowl. First time in Ireland?

[Steve Coogan]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Hi. Folks came here for their honeymoon. Always wanted to come back. Why didn't they? Well, once you've seen the honeymoon suite, you'll know exactly why they didn't come back. So you hear from the, from the trailer. It kind of gives you a good sense of both the. The sort of wry, dark humor and the creepy nature of the story. So I said it's a bit Stephen King. There is a bit of misery in the idea of the author finishing a book in the way that he wants, but that not necessarily other people will want. There's Fiona, who works behind the bar in the hotel, asks him to tell her how the book is gonna end. And he does. And she says, well, I won't be reading that. I mean, why would I read a book that ends like that? There is a lot of the shine in. In the idea of the hotel that mirrors the internal turmoil of one of its visitors. You know, this obviously also relates to the haunting of Hill House, which, as you know, is kind of Stephen King always refers to as the urtext of all haunted house stories. And there's also a touch of deliverance in that thing about the, you know, the author, the educated elite who goes out to this rural backwater where everything is folklore and butchery. And there's a fair degree of dark humor about the setup. I mean, the obnoxiousness of the author is funny. There's something also a bit sort of Royston Vasey about some of the characters. I mean, at times I was thinking about this, thinking, how would you describe this? And it's like. Well, it's like Barton Fink meets Father Ted via Stephen King. You know, that's. You know, I think that's actually quite a good comparison. Most importantly, however, the film has a really good sense of atmosphere and it's got a terrific use of its central location. It's got a very firm grip on the mechanics of making jump scares that aren't simply quiet, quiet, bang. There is a sort of genuine sense of trauma and loss and folkloric going on in the background. But there's also enough kind of foreground, woodsy weirdness and stuff about magic mushrooms to give you the creeps, but also to do so in, as I said, a kind of darkly satirical way. When I saw it, I saw it at, well, the screening room that I still refer to as Mr. Young's, which technically Soho screening rooms, which you've been to as well. It's one of my favorite screening rooms in London. And I was sitting in the front row and a critic friend of mine was sitting behind me. And at one point they jumped so much that they kicked the back of my chair really hard. So it was like watching the film in 4D. You know, it was like, whoa. And it was. And honestly, on the strength of this, I think Damian McCarthy is really shaping up as a talent to watch. And so I thought was it. It got the atmosphere right. It got the balance of the horror and the humor right. And there is a really well established creepy atmosphere. It's not world changing by any means, but it is a good, well made, creepy, darkly funny horror movie.

[Simon Mayo]

And just Because I like this kind of stuff. Hokum.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Dates from 1917 and is a combination of hocus pocus and bunky income.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, wow.

[Simon Mayo]

And yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Hocus pocus. Now remind me, because. Yeah, fine. Tell me where hocus pocus comes from.

[Simon Mayo]

It's my favorite. I think it was one of the reasons I got into all the etymology stuff. Hocus pocus is a Mickey take of the mass, the Catholic mass. And it's that it was so the. The words from the mass, hocus corpus. Here is the body.

[Mark Kermode]

That's right.

[Simon Mayo]

And it was magicians who were. Were being sarcastic and taking the mickey out of the mass by. So hocus corpus became hocus pocus.

[Mark Kermode]

Hocus pocus.

[Simon Mayo]

Just amazing. I just think it's. It's terrific.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Fantastic.

[Simon Mayo]

And also because you said the text. I know that there'll be.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Sorry.

[Mark Kermode]

That's not.

[Simon Mayo]

That's not e. Mark wasn't hesitating.

[Mark Kermode]

Wasn't. The text.

[Simon Mayo]

You are. Is German for out of and original. So that's what that is. But you can't take the PhD out of Mark. Once a PhD student, always a PhD student. Anyway, so hokum. That sounds good. Then, you know, that's.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so let's step with Gay abandoned into the. The Laughter Lift now, which each week recreates the lift scene from the outtakes of Return of the Pink Panther.

[Mark Kermode]

Can I I y k y k

[Simon Mayo]

as the kids say, Mark?

[Mark Kermode]

What?

[Simon Mayo]

I y k I y k y k. If you know, you know. Oh, yeah. Very good. So with a live intro from Mark. Okay, now it's time for the Laughter Lift. Hey, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey, Simon.

[Simon Mayo]

I'll never forget. Forget what dear old granddad Mayo said to me just before he croaked. Okay, come closer, young Simon, he whispered. Would you like to hear my frog impression? Hey, Mark, some bad news. The good lady ceramicist Heron Doors threatened to leave me again this week. She said I was, too.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a regular occurrence, isn't it? It is.

[Simon Mayo]

It is.

[Mark Kermode]

In the laughter, it is gone.

[Simon Mayo]

She said I was too arrogant. Me, arrogant? Arrogant, I said. Okay, good lady ceramicist Herringdorf. Don't let the door hit you on the way back in.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, two.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. And this one from the archives.

[Steve Coogan]

All right.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, I think I learned this at university. Hey, Mark, did you know Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities was first serialized in two very specific local newspapers? One in Oxfordshire, the other in the West. West Midlands? Yes, you're right. It was the best of times. It was The Worcester Times. Oh, okay. No laughs.

[Mark Kermode]

But I'm just doing the bell ringing.

[Simon Mayo]

It saves you laughing. It does so. So much easier. Very good. I enjoyed the Laughter lift last week when it was a joke sent in by the.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, they were good, weren't they?

[Simon Mayo]

No disrespect to Paul Simon, but anyway, there you go. Okay, well, what's still to come? I'll tell you. Surviving Earth in just a moment. Infamous is the gossip show. That's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself.

[Simon Mayo]

We talked about about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy.

[Mark Kermode]

Brooklyn is their first kid.

[Simon Mayo]

He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults.

[Mark Kermode]

A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life.

[Simon Mayo]

And of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin.

[Mark Kermode]

I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims.

[Simon Mayo]

She was defrauding the elderly and her

[Mark Kermode]

tagline was the only thing I'm guilty of is being shamazing.

[Simon Mayo]

Listen to Infamous, the gossip show. That's smart. The show's called Infamous. Rolling, rolling, rolling Keep them, keep them doggies rolling.

[Mark Kermode]

Is it doggies? Keep them rolling, rolling, rolling Is it, Keep them doggies.

[Simon Mayo]

Is it doggies? What is it?

[Mark Kermode]

No, what is. Hang on. I have to look it up now. Okay, you can't. It's impossible also to play Rawhide without playing it now behind a fence because of the Blues Brothers Rawhide lyrics. Here we go. Rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling, rolling. Yes, Keep them doggies. It is. It is. Keep, keep them doggies rolling.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it is. Through rain and weather Hell bent for leather Wishing my gal was by my side all the things I'm missing. Good vitties, good vittles, love and kissing Are waiting at the end of my now. That's right. Well, there we go. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Chris Dun in Sutton Courtney in Oxfordshire. Dear Ford and Arthur, long term listener, second term emailer, I write regarding your discussion on April 23rd where Simon offered a succinct one word descriptor of certain breeds of philosopher. I could not. Who knew that getting tangled with philosophy was going to. I blame, obviously, French cinema in general. I could not help, says Chris. But think of the great Douglas Adams, specifically the scene in Hitchhiker's Garage Guide. I grew up on tapes of the original radio series.

[Mark Kermode]

Excellent.

[Simon Mayo]

Where Deep Thought is being programmed to search for the answer to the ultimate question.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

The programmers are interrupted by a delegation from the amalgamation union of philosophers, sages, luminaries and other professional thinking persons who demand both that the machine be switched off and that there be a quote rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.

[Mark Kermode]

That's right.

[Simon Mayo]

That's right. We'll go on strike. We'll go on strike, says the first philosopher. That's right. His colleague ads. You'll have a national philosopher's strike on your hands. At which point Deep Thought interjects to ask, who will that inconvenience like the show, Steve? Up with the usual, down with the other stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

I told you.

[Simon Mayo]

I think the Sartre people are going to take offense at that now.

[Mark Kermode]

They are. It reminds me, however, of something very funny that Peter Bradshaw, a critic of the Guardian, said that we were at a screening once and there was some. There was some shenanigans or, you know, flim flam going on that had made the day particularly difficult. And I said, you know, more in jest than anything else, I said, oh for heaven's sake, we should just all go on strike. And Pete Bradshaw immediately said, yes, just imagine the public outrage. All those unreviewed films piling up in the streets.

[Simon Mayo]

You could stand behind a bin burning things, warming your hands in the middle of summer.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah,

[Simon Mayo]

everyone would come out on strike in sympathy with you, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Would they? Would they?

[Simon Mayo]

No one out.

[Mark Kermode]

All out.

[Simon Mayo]

Craig Woolworth says. Dear Benson and Hedges, long time listener, second time correspondent. A note of reassurance for Simon following his admission of paranoia on last week's show regarding his new book. Some 15 years ago and desperate to get my first publishing credit as a writer writer, I agreed to sell my manuscript to an indie based publisher who issued their titles only on ebook. When it came to the release date, I couldn't have been more excited. I had arrived and was now a fully fledged author. However, following its its launch, those that ordered the book started to reach out to me to say that they were. I think you mean contact. To say that there was a problem. The publisher had mistakenly uploaded the manuscript version with editorial comments still attached.

[Steve Coogan]

Attached.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh my goodness.

[Simon Mayo]

This meant that anyone who bought a copy also got the added bonus material of reading all my grammatical errors and suggestions on how to improve the narrative.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

This was just one. Imagine that. Imagine your last book going up with your notes and good lord. This was just one literary incident of many that has left me battered and bruised over the years. So from one not so successful writer to one that remains respected and adored by many. You're not alone in your worries and paranoia. The manuscript will never be truly finished. There will always be something that could be improved. As Ray Bradbury once said, you fail only if you stop writing down with Nazis and unnecessary adverbs. Thank you, Craig, for that reassurance. But it's right. Was it Sam Mendes? Was it the Sam Mendes James Bond film where we asked him. It was one of our live shows and because I'm sure we had an audience. I'm sure it's in the West End End. And he said he was very bad at stepping away from his work, that there was always something to improve, that he'd literally stopped like three weeks before or something.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, there was a joke about how do you know when the movie is finished? And it's when they have literally wrenched the reels out of my fingers. I remember when I wrote the BFI exorcist book in 1998 or 97, I think it was, that I got back the, the, the, the, the annotated manuscript, and at one point, the person who was editing it, I had written something like, you know, this is the point at which the film tips over into blah, blah, something. And they had literally underlined it and written, oh, f off.

[Simon Mayo]

Fortunately, my editor is not that, not that crude. But I have in between these, these conversations I have had had.

[Mark Kermode]

I, I.

[Simon Mayo]

In this new thing that I've done, I've. I'd invented a word and I was sure that the editor was going to put a line through it and say, you have got to be kidding. Or, you know, with the same kind of feeling as you've just did. But it's gone through. It's gone through on the nod. So I, I think, what's the word? I'm not going to tell you because. Okay, well, I will tell you, but, you know, we'll have to not, not with this microphone.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, I see. Okay, fine. But inventing words is a thing. I mean, F. Scott Fitzgerald invented the word orgasm. And people correct it, you know, because it's in the final paragraph of the Great Gatsby, and he says, the orgastic future, which year by year recedes before us. And there are versions of the Great Gatsby that correct it to orgiastic, but it isn't. The word in his manuscript is the orgastic. And it's an invented word. Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm not sure mine will be very useful. But anyway, we'll, you know, we shall find out Anyway, let's talk about something that's out. I think you've already said it. You said at the top of the show that you liked it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Surviving Earth. So this is in cinemas now. This came out last week, but we had such a packed show last week, we weren't able to review it. So this is the debut feature from writer director Thea Gaetz, who I first met at a film festival last year in Croatia. Now, I think I'm right in saying that her father is Serbian, her mother was from Liverpool. She grew up, up down south. We met on the island of Loped when she had made the film and she was looking for distribution and is now out. And anyway, when we met, she had a tattoo on her arm of a harmonica. And I play harmonica, as you know. And I started talking to her about why, why she has a harmonica tattoo. And she said, well, it's to do with my dad and it's to do with this film that I had. I made about her dad. So her dad was a musician who played harmonica and who dealt with some very dark addiction issues in his life. And she had made this film, Surviving Earth, about him, about his struggles, about his music and about his relationships with his family. Here's a clip from the trailer.

[Simon Mayo]

Always stick to these three things in life.

[Steve Coogan]

Something to do, someone to love, and something to look forward to. Hey, Mikey, this is Maria, my daughter I don't think you've met.

[Mark Kermode]

Hi, D. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.

[Steve Coogan]

I've got something for you.

[Simon Mayo]

I can't play.

[Steve Coogan]

Oh, Maria, how many times have I told you, if you can breathe, you can.

[Simon Mayo]

You can play the harmonica, which of

[Mark Kermode]

course we all know is absolutely true. If you can breathe, you can play the harmonica. So. So Slavka Sobin is particularly well. Thank you, Simon. That is very kind of you to say so. But as we know, the great thing about harmonica is you can't play a wrong note unless you've got a chromatic harmonica, in which case you can play every wrong note. So playing the harmonica is easy. Playing the chromatic is rather more difficult. There's very good harmonica playing in this film, incidentally. So Vlad is recovering addict who arrived in the 90s, is now living in Bristol. He has a daughter, played by Olive Gray, who lives in London, has a very conflicted relationship with him due to his past addiction and abandonment issues. And he plays in a Balkan band doing support slots where people talk all over their sets and they want their own gig. And his band, they dream up a night called the Balkan Express. But putting on a gig requires money, and it also requires Vlad not to fall back into his old habits and addictions. So, as I said, this is the feature debut from Theogaich, and I think it's a really impressive piece of work. I mean, it's one of those films. We've talked about this before that proves that universality comes from getting the specific details right. So if you get the minutiae right, the bigger picture falls into place. And I think there are many of us who will not have lived experiences that are anything like what's going on in the film, which. Which is very, very closely autobiographical. I interviewed the director. Director on stage at the BFI earlier this week and saying that how close is it to reality? Said, no, it's very, very close. And because those experiences are very specific, you might think, well, how. How are we going to get into this? But because the details of that are done so well and because it feels authentic, it rings true. And I also think everyone can understand themes of both loving and being estranged from a parent and seeing your parents struggle with stuff and feeling alienated from. But also intimately connected to that. The other thing, of course, is that music is a driving force in the film. The music is the central character's spirit. It's vibrant, it's exciting, it's unruly, it's a little bit dangerous. And I think that when. When the film does the musical sequences, they're done with such a confidence. They're done with the confidence of somebody who has found a way into the story that can then speak to other people. And there's this. There is a harmonica, central harmonica in the drama, which is passed from father to daughter and has come down, you know, generationally, and it's kind of. It's like it becomes like a talisman. And there is. There's a moment in the film when the harmonica gets stepped on. And I. I literally gasped out loud when it happened. I was like, you know, is that like the otter?

[Simon Mayo]

Like the otter getting it?

[Mark Kermode]

Ring of Bright Water. Same thing that film has really done for you, hasn't it? You're never, ever going to get away from that.

[Simon Mayo]

That's what awful moment when the harmonica gets it.

[Mark Kermode]

I think it's one of those things that when somebody manages to pull something like that off to make you genuinely gasp at something as apparently ordinary as a small musical instrument getting stood upon, what that tells you is that the film's worked, that it has drawn you enough into the story and you believe enough in the, the bits and the mechanics of the story. You're invested enough in them to be shocked by something as apparently unsensationalist as somebody stepping upon a harmonica. The other thing I would say is if I still had the Scala show, which of course I don't because Scala doesn't exist anymore, if I did, I'd be playing the tunes from this film every week because I. I love that kind of music. So I. Anyway, as I said, it came out on Friday, it's in cinemas now, but I think it's a. A really terrific piece of work and it's got great reviews and, and it's really good to see. It's really, really good to see, you know, yet another filmmaker making their mark and once again demonstrating that, you know, inventive, adventurous cinema is alive and can

[Simon Mayo]

picking when you've seen it. Let us know what you think. Correspondenceobertamo.com that is it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor was Simon Poole, who's back from his very, very long holidays. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcasts, come and join us on Patreon. Mark, what is your film of the week?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, no surprise. I think Surviving Earth. Absolutely. Go see it. It's a. It's a terrific movie that needs your support and I, I was really excited by.

[Simon Mayo]

There will be another take which has landed adjacent to this one. I am going to bestow a year's Ultra membership to our correspondence of the week. I think Chris Duncar, our Douglas Adams philosopher.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

[Simon Mayo]

Chris will be in touch. Thank you very much, Steve, for listening. We'll talk to you soon.