Have we found Mark’s film of the year already?

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Have we found Mark’s film of the year already?
Date: April 23, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode & Simon Mayo

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mark and Simon delve into essential film and TV reviews, lively cultural discussions, and generously respond to listener correspondence. The centerpiece is Mark’s glowing review of Mark Jenkin’s Rose of Nevada—likely his film of the year—but they also take time for thoughtful conversation with Half Man creator/star Richard Gad, as well as a sharp analysis of the Michael Jackson biopic, Michael. Classic in-jokes, philosophical rabbit holes, and affectionate listener interactions abound, maintaining the trademark blend of wit, warmth, and critical sharpness fans expect.

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Key Discussion Points & Reviews

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1. Banter, Technology, and Philosophical Openers

• [03:10] Simon experiences issues with podcast video technology:

  • The camera’s auto-tracking feature is "like the camera equivalent of the Mona Lisa whose eyes follow you around" — (Mark, 04:05).
  • Simon wrestles with making himself invisible to the "computer overlords".

• Existential listener mail referencing Le Tranger and existential philosophy, prompting a discussion on the meaninglessness of debating whether tables exist, and fond remembrance of old academic jokes.

Mark [13:11]: “I thought that was actually… [referring to a listener’s clever existential joke], but anyone who seriously wants to discuss whether a table exists or not, you know, the world has quite a few issues at the moment.”

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2. Feature Review: Rose of Nevada

(Mark Jenkin, 2026)

Mark’s Take

[16:21] – [25:06]

• Mark has been advocating for this film since last year and declares, "This is my favorite film of the year so far, and I would be really, really surprised if it gets surpassed."

• Plot Summary:

  • Set in a declining Cornish fishing village, a boat lost for 30 years mysteriously returns. When the protagonists crew and sail it, they are transported back to the village’s vibrant past.
  • The film’s narrative loops between desolate present and bustling past; details such as the boat’s nameplate mark time shifts.

• Craft & Performances:

  • Shot silent with all sound post-synced; Mark describes the film as having an "accessible emotional edge…eerily heartbreaking."
  • Performances by George Mackay, Callum Turner, and Mary Woodvine are highlighted.

Mark [24:00]: "Nobody makes movies like he does…brilliantly constructed time-traveling narrative that has emotional heft."

Mark [24:36]: "There is nothing in any Mark Jenkin film that isn’t relevant…There is nothing in there by accident, but…nothing to be explained definitively."

• Release:
  • Major BFI-backed release: 124 screens, hailed as BFI’s "flagship...their Star Wars."
  • Calls for audience correspondence upon seeing it.

Timestamps:

• [16:21] – Review introduction
• [18:56] – Audio clip & sound design discussion
• [21:23] – Reflections on thematic resonance, past/present, and narrative subtlety
• [24:06] – Film's title and symbolism discussed

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3. Top 10 Box Office Rundown

[27:41] – [39:47]

• Mark and Simon run through new releases, listener feedback, and quick takes on titles from Undertone (found-footage horror), The Magic Faraway Tree (a wholesome family film), to the reissue of Akira.

Simon [35:23]: “Wholesome becomes a kind of almost pejorative really, but actually, no, it just means you can all go and see it and you can all enjoy it…”

• Lighthearted listener emails about cinema experiences, plot holes, swimming proficiency, and video rentals provide comic relief.

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4. Listener Correspondence: Science in Cinema & Existentialism

[09:51] & [39:47] and throughout

• Highlight: Dr. Nicholas R. Moody writes in (biochemistry teacher) to critique scientific realism in Project Hail Mary:

Dr. Nick [41:12]: “Ryan Gosling’s pipetting technique was all over the shop…he should have been using a cut tip or a positive displacement pipette. He got the sample transferred but he would have got a failing grade on his practical if I was his supervisor…”

• Existentialist emails prompted banter about philosophical traditions and comedic riffs on academic debates.

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5. Interview: Richard Gad on Half Man

[45:59] – [59:12]

Conversation Highlights

• Project Genesis:

  • Gad’s Half Man explores male repression, violence, and behavior through the lifelong relationship between two men, Reuben (played by Gad) and Niall (Jamie Bell).
  • The series was years in development, initially titled “Lions,” and Gad only chose to star after encouragement from the team.

• Thematic Core:

  • Gad describes Ruben as “the quintessential epitome of repressed male violence…a man who does not like to be disempowered one iota.”
  • The series navigates time periods and uses dual casting for younger and older versions of characters.

Gad [48:28]: "Reuben is…a man that does not like to be disempowered one iota. His existence is a sort of reaction…any dent on his masculinity…results in very extreme behavior.”

• Physical Transformation:

  • Gad dramatically changed body type to portray Ruben, committing to a year of intense training.

• Personal Impact:

  • Gad calls post-Baby Reindeer fame “like walking around naked,” feeling exposed but grateful for experiences like Soccer Aid.

Mark’s Review

[61:07] – [67:41]

• Draws parallels to Fight Club, discusses duality, shame, rage, and the show’s narrative structure (jumps in time, labyrinthine).
• Jamie Bell and the younger performers are lauded.
• Mark remarks on the show’s intensity and potential to provoke:

Mark [66:38]: “It says something very, very important about the state of male…male repression, male violence, male behavior, male damage.”

Timestamps:

• [45:59]: Show intro and clip
• [46:16]: Gad on press and expectations post-Baby Reindeer
• [47:42]: Themes and plot
• [51:52]: Show development history
• [54:00]: Casting and title changes
• [56:11]: Lessons and fame

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6. Review: Michael (Michael Jackson Biopic)

[78:12] – [91:11]

Mark’s Take

• Describes film as heavily authorized and sanitized—“a second coming narrative”—focusing on Jackson’s early life, rise, abuse by his father, and triumph.
• Central performances praised, especially Jafar Jackson as Michael and Colman Domingo as father Joe.
• Touches on Jackson’s quirks (childlike behavior, animal menagerie, plastic surgery) but sharply critiques the omission of controversy and abuse allegations.

Mark [83:19]: “There is a whole other film not happening…a whole other story not happening around which this film is not so much doing the hot shoe shuffle as the 500 meter dash…as fast as possible.”

• Cites rumors about cut scenes originally addressing allegations; studio’s approach is to leave the door open for a sanitized sequel.

Mark [89:57]: “Graham King said the biopic would humanize but not sanitize Jackson’s story. That is preposterous…what is now on screen is a second coming narrative. It is…messianic—laugh out loud funny.”

• Concludes the film is profoundly uncomfortable, unsatisfying, and “actively creating another story that is below.”

Notable Quotes

• Simon [89:26]: “A movie that tells the truth would not get permission to have the music in. So that, that’s the problem, isn’t it?”

• Mark [91:11]: “I still think even those people are going to have a problem with some of the smiling pop Jesus stuff.”

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7. Lighter Fare: Laughter Lift & Listener Good News

[68:26] – [71:01]

• Jokes from listeners, existential gags, and classic knock-knock routines.
• Listener Richie describes a perfect but nearly-ruined Jurassic Park cinema screening, only for the staff to rectify the problem without prompting—“it’s encouraging that even in giant multiplexes there are people who still care.” (Mark, 75:28)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Simon, on the ever-watching camera:
  "It’s the camera equivalent of the Mona Lisa whose eyes follow you around." [04:05]

• Mark’s unambiguous film endorsement:
  "Go and see Rose of Nevada. Let’s make this a breakout hit." [93:40]

• Richard Gad, on his transformation for Half Man:
  "I was rake thin when I did Baby Reindeer...I went through a year of intense working out, dieting, all kinds of things. I committed to it to the fullest degree." [50:39]

• On the ‘Michael’ biopic:
  "What is now on screen is a second coming narrative…It really, it’s that level of hagiographic. So it’s not just that it’s not telling one story, it’s that it is actively creating another story that is below." (Mark, [89:57]–[90:32])

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Standout Timestamps

• [16:21] – [25:06]: Mark’s rapturous review of Rose of Nevada
• [45:59] – [59:12]: Interview with Richard Gad on Half Man
• [61:07] – [67:41]: Mark’s critical appraisal of Half Man
• [78:12] – [91:11]: The Michael biopic review
• [68:26]: "Laughter Lift"—existential jokes and light comic relief
• [75:28]: "Good news story" about a cherished Jurassic Park cinema screening

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Tone and Atmosphere

Listeners enjoy a balance of clever criticism, humane insight, and trademark wit—with recurring in-jokes, scholarly tangents, and affectionate listener interaction, all delivered in the warm, teasing banter of two seasoned friends.

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Closing Thoughts

• Mark picks Rose of Nevada as his film of the year (so far): “Go and see Rose of Nevada. Let’s make this a breakout hit.”
• Half Man lauded for its tough but necessary portrait of masculinity and trauma.
• The Michael biopic is called out for its glaring omissions—entertaining, but ethically and narratively unsatisfying.
• Listeners are urged to send in their reviews and participate in the ongoing dialogue.

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Next Week

• Steve Coogan will be a guest, discussing his new TV series.
• Correspondent of the week: Tabitha from Brighton, whose use of the podcast as part of her birth plan delights the hosts.

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For more reviews, banter, and exclusive content, subscribe through the usual platforms. Listener correspondence always welcomed at correspondencekermodeandmayo.com.

Transcript

[A]

Now, Mark, you were telling me the other day about this Saily Esim app.

[B]

Which one was that?

[A]

Well, the one I just install on my phone before I go abroad so that I can save loads of money on roaming and data charges when I'm there.

[B]

Ah, yes, it's dead simple. Install the Saily app on your device and choose a data plan. There are multiple plans in over 200 destinations available at some of the best rates online. Then follow the instructions on the app to install the ESIM and it will be activated instantly on arrival.

[A]

So I don't have to buy a new SIM card when I get there?

[B]

Nope. There's no queuing at a dodgy airport kiosk. A Saily ESIM only needs to be installed once and then you use the same one for each country you visit. Great.

[A]

Does it let me skip all the other queues too?

[B]

Well, funnily enough, with Salee Ultra you can enjoy VIP travel perks like airport lounge access, fast track services, priority support, advanced online security and much more.

[A]

You'll be telling me we've got a voucher code next.

[B]

Oh yes, and don't forget to apply the code. Take to T A K E at checkout to get a 15% discount.

[A]

Howdy, partner.

[B]

Hello, Simon Mayo.

[A]

I was just thinking the other day about the good old days.

[B]

What? The good old days in the Wild West. What's with the howdy partner thing?

[A]

Well, I was just thinking that when we started out in the radio. Yeah, we were lucky because we had each other to bounce off. But most people don't have that support from a partner when they're starting out in business and. And they can get overwhelmed easily.

[B]

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Sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk take.

[A]

That's shopify.co.uk take. Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[B]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[A]

and non film questions answered as best we can in questions you can get

[B]

all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[A]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. I don't like technology and I don't like progress. These are the two defining factors for my particular day today.

[B]

Do you want to explain specifically to the listeners what it is about technology in particular and progress in general that has been knocking you this morning?

[A]

Those who the paymasters have decided that we have to improve the video content of this podcast, which is, you know, in general, a good thing. You need something to look as crisp and gorgeous.

[B]

Do you, do you though?

[A]

Not really.

[B]

No blurry lens, please.

[A]

So I now have a camera installed here next to my laptop, which knows where I am so that I'm looking at you.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

But if I, if I move off to my right.

[B]

The camera follows you.

[A]

The camera follows me and I can't escape it. If I, if I go down here, it follows me. It's like it, it knows where I. It's been programmed so that it follows me everywhere. It's like I just need to run away from, from this room. Which obviously wouldn't make a very good podcast, but I.

[B]

It's the camera equivalent of the Mona Lisa whose eyes follow you around. Simon is now putting on an Eyes Wide Shut mask.

[A]

Yes. This is how I intend to continue on the show so that no one knows where I am.

[B]

Well, I should point out that we both have the same camera. And Josh came. Yeah. Does all the sort of clever stuff. Came around here and went into the, you know, and disabled my follow mark around the room function. So my camera, I can do this. And it's just, it's staying absolutely still because I've killed it.

[A]

Well, I need to, I need that function. Yeah. Because, you know, if I, if I go over here, you can see all the shelving that's just arrived, which you shouldn't normally, normally be able to see. I can't fool it. It knows where I am and life has become like this, this camp. I need to. Even if I flip it so that it's looking at the ceiling, it'll just track down until it finds me again.

[B]

I'm going to make you a little bit louder in my headphones. Okay. Because I can do that.

[A]

You mean you haven't got a, you haven't got a machine that does that automatically for you? No, I'm sure you can find that?

[B]

No. So what.

[A]

Welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Oh, you've said so. We finished the technical discussion. Now this is the.

[A]

This is. This is now the bonhomie section. How are you, Mark?

[B]

I'm fine, actually, I'm. Now that I've done the thing in order to make you louder, the only way I can do it on this, this is technology again, is I have to turn me down and then I have to press a button and then I have to bring everything else up. Okay. Do you remember when you can't even

[A]

see the T shirt that I'm wearing, can you? Because of the. The angle which has been selected by the man.

[B]

Can you stand up? Is it. Is it a brand new floozies?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

As you stand up, it follows you up, it follows your head. Right? So literally you stand up. The logo brief comes.

[A]

So it says. It just says minimal.

[B]

Minimal. It says, very good.

[A]

And I thought, mark, I like that. I'll wear it on the podcast. It's very good. And. And because of our computer overlords, it's decided that you're not allowed to see what I'm.

[B]

It's just really hilarious. If you're listening to this, not watching it. What happened was Simon, the logo on his chest. So he stood up so that the logo would be in front of the camera. But because the camera is fixated on his face like a dog, it just looked up. So I do.

[A]

You know, I'm going to disable it. I'm going to put a scarf over it.

[B]

There you go. There we go.

[A]

Suck that. Okay, now I can't be seen. Okay. The computer overlord is going to go crazy at this point, isn't it?

[B]

It's like putting a cloth over the birdcage.

[A]

Okay, all right. It's gonna find me in the end.

[B]

There you go. Anyway, you could just sellotape it in place. You could literally just put a bit of Sellotape over it. So even if its robot brain wants to move, it can't because it's being sellotaped in place.

[A]

I'm just waiting. Oh, God. It's now looking at the ceiling. Ha. Look at that.

[B]

You've defeated it.

[A]

I have now it doesn't want to look anywhere else anyway.

[B]

Pointless.

[A]

What's the point of this kind of technology? It's a. It's a. This is radio, isn't it? It's a sound. It's a podcast thing. Who cares what we look like? What's happening on the show? Later when we talk in radio terms about Stuff that people can see with their eyes.

[B]

We have some majestic reviews. We have Rose of Nevada, which I've been talking about for a long time, which is the new film by Mark Jenkin. We have Michael, which is the long awaited and much debated Michael Jackson. I don't know if you can actually call it a biopic, but we'll get to that. And Half man, which is the new TV series for which we have our

[A]

very special guest who is actor, writer and comedian Richard Gad, the guy who brought you baby reindeer to much acclaim and lots of attention. He has a new series for the BBC and it's called Half man and we'll be talking about that. Mark has seen the whole thing and I've seen half of it. And you can hear Richard Gad talking to us later.

[B]

Can we just address the elephant in the room, which is that when you said half man, at least half of our audience went half biscuit.

[A]

Yes. And there is a point in the interview where I should have made that point, but I thought Richard might crumble at that point and say, yes, you're right, I should never have made it. And whoever came up with this idea was completely correct.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

By the way, on that. On the Michael subject, there was a review in the Times.

[B]

All right. I haven't seen it.

[A]

Which used more curse words than I've ever seen in a review.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

All of them involving excrement?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So, wow.

[A]

Films in take two, Mark, Exit eight,

[B]

which is a really kind of interesting psychological horror thriller based on a video game and back in cinemas reissued Fight Club is punching its way back onto your screens.

[A]

Also in take two, you'll get even more of the good stuff, including five Question Film Club.

[B]

Three questions, you, Majesty.

[A]

Available for you on Patreon are intros to Cold War, the Silence of the Lambs, Heathers and Withnail and I, amongst many others. So head on over to Patreon if you. If you'd like to join the club. Plus you get all the other top quality content ad free. I'd say it to the camera there. I'm saying it to the camera ad free. There'll be questions in which Mark and I answer top questions, including which film tropes most annoy you or even take you out of the film that you're watching.

[B]

Which is.

[A]

Which is a very good question. Now, I have to say, because of the high quality of, of our listeners, something that we've discussed many times, there are at least two emails in our takes today that I don't really understand.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And Here. Here is the first one.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We have been inundated with existential emails following Mark's review and our discussion of Letranger the Stranger. And while we accept the existence of these emails, we struggle to find meaning in them. For example, Robin, Cambridge.

[B]

Okay, I'll show it to you.

[A]

Okay. Wowzer, Cambridge. Not a surprise.

[B]

Shall we mark it and send it back to him?

[A]

Dear Sisyphus. And also Sisyphus. So I'm already thinking. Okay. I really enjoyed your thought provoking review of Francois Ozon's Letranger and the wider dialogue surrounding it. However, I did want to put a word in for existentialists, of course, if I may. And that is never going to be a paragraph or even two paragraphs, is it? No, it isn't. No. Okay, so I might bail out of this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

At some stage, depending on your body language.

[B]

Right. Strap in, everyone.

[A]

Though Sartre de Beauvoir, Camus and other contributors to the loosely speaking existentialist tradition grappled with the absurdity and meaninglessness of existence, they didn't actually advocate for the attic for an attitude of callow indifference in light of this, something which is displayed in the film. Rather, Sartre emphasized in a world without God to give our lives inherent meaning. Our choices shape our nature, and we are solely responsible for them. His political engagement can be seen as an extension of his wider philosophy, informed by his time with the French Resistance members whose willingness to resist suffering and torture for a just cause was a model of a life lived authentically. Meanwhile, Simone.

[B]

Yeah, it was. And I acknowledged that in the review when I talked.

[A]

Meanwhile, Simone de Beauvoir made enormous contributions to 20th century thought with 1949's the Second Sex Milestone in the development of feminism. Camus was also deeply politically engaged and explicitly rejected despair in books like the Myth of Sisyphus, where, spoiler alert, he concluded that even Sisyphus, condemned to point pointlessly roll a rock up a hill for all eternity, might find a measure of contentment in the T. I could be wrong, but I suspect that the image of these thinkers as resembling those nihilists in the Big Lebowski who believe in nothing, come from a historic opposition between the European and Anglophone schools of philosophy. Are you aware of this, Mark?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. The latter caricatures the former as a gaggle of smug, sharply dressed socialites in sunglasses making vague statements about the nature of being, of being between puffs on their galois, while Anglophone philosophers are portrayed as aging, tweed jacketed dons arguing about whether tables exist from the comfort of their armchairs. As someone with a little experience of academic philosophy, I have to concede that the bit about debating furniture is true. It comes up so, so much. I don't know why. But the rest is more complicated and worth engaging with. Up with, accept that. And that's the end. Up with accepting that furniture probably exists and down with indifference in the face of tyranny and oppression. Well, I get that bit anyway.

[B]

I mean, I thought that was actually.

[A]

Yeah, I know, but of the Anglophone. They all sound like tossers. That's the point.

[B]

You know, the, the.

[A]

The Europeans, smug, sharply dressed socialites in sunglasses talking about the nature of being, of being or being someone discussing whether a table exists. We can do without that.

[B]

Well, anyway, I should say two things. I was at college and in a band with Andrew Hussey. Now Andrew Hussey, OBE of the Sorbonne and you know, great intellectual thought. And Andrew is very, very funny on the, on, on the. I mean, you know, what he didn't know about any of this stuff wasn't worth knowing. But I remember repeating to him a joke which Alexi Sayle said at the beginning of the comic strip, when the comic strip was upstairs at the Paul Raymond Review bar. And the joke went like this. I met that John Paul Sartre. He was so stupid, he didn't know he existed. I proved he existed. I nutted him. I argued empirically. Now, I'd like to be clear that in our review we did say that in terms of soccer existentialism because we talked about the move towards Marxism and the role of materialist philosophy. The point was in terms of discussing Letranger, the character in Le Tranger that you were talking about as the guy, he was disaffected, removed. He is that character. That is not existentialism en masse. He is that character. And that's what we were talking about. But I have to say I've had a whale of a time going below the line on YouTube with the comments which begin, oh, if I could just. These people don't understand existential change. So that letter that you just read out was actually very smart and funny and on the moment, Rob. Thank you, Rob.

[A]

But anyone who seriously wants to discuss whether a table exists or not, you know, the world has quite a few issues at the moment. Discussing whether a piece of furniture is in existence or not is not really at the cutting edge. Staying on the. The big question. Ian Hargreaves in Bath. In last week's take one, Simon was plagued by a wood chipper mark asked how much Wood can a wood chipper chip? If a wood chipper could chip wood, which is of course irrelevant, is a reference to the woodchuck song from 1902.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And also this Werner Herzog 1976 film with the same title. Mark said there was no answer to this important question. He might have said that because the answer is a challenging tongue twister. Just as much wood as a wood chipper would chip. If a wood chipper could chip wood. Amaze, amaze, amaze.

[B]

Hargreaves that's very good.

[A]

Have you seen how much wood would a woodchuck by Werner Herzog in 1976?

[B]

I don't believe I have. No. No, I don't think I have.

[A]

And a woodchuck is a. Is a groundhog, which I didn't know until I looked it all up.

[B]

Oh, no, I didn't know that.

[A]

So it's a reference. So it's just a colloquial term for a groundhog.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

Anyway, I'm glad we've sorted both those issues.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Correspondencecodemo.com introduce us to a film of interest, please.

[B]

Or possibly the film of interest, because I've been talking about this since last year. Rose.

[A]

Well, don't give away your movie of the week already, because.

[B]

But you know, Simon, I've already.

[A]

Suspense.

[B]

Okay, fine.

[A]

It could. It could be Michael.

[B]

Okay, yeah, well, after all those cussing words in the Times, which I haven't seen, but I will check out afterwards. Okay, so this is the new film from Mark Jenkin, you know, Cornish cinematic bard behind Bait and Ennis Main, both of which I loved. Now, I think both of those films were brilliant, although neither of them had mainstream and inverted commas appeal. This Rosa Nevada, I think, does not least because I think it has an emotional. An accessible emotional edge that I think has the potential to prove universal. So the story opens in a now rather desolate Cornish fishing village. George Mackay's character lives there with partner and child. The roof of their porch is leaking. The local businesses are boarded up. There's a food bank on the corner. Clearly the village has declined. Died even. Then in the harbour, a boat appears, a boat that disappeared three decades ago, like the Event Horizon returning in Event Horizon. Strange thing is that people don't seem that surprised. They sort of expected the boat to come back. Indeed, they promptly set about crewing it so it can go out fishing. And the crew will include George Mackay's character in New Arrival, played by Callum Turner. They are taught the trade. They learn the ropes, literally learning the ropes of fishing. And they head out to sea. But when they come back, they don't come back to the place they left from the place. They do, but the time is completely different. They have gone back to the time that the boat disappeared. The village is thriving. You know, it's buzzing by comparison with the version of it that we just saw. The pub is open and. And full of life. The post offices are going concern, most importantly, the fishing trade is providing a lifeblood for it. When they arrive at the harbor, everyone comes down to help them unload the fish and so they're back in the past from which the boat disappeared. The film, as with all of Mark Jenkins work, is made in his distinctive style. So it's shot silent on a clockwork camera with all the sound and dialogue created and post synced afterwards. Here is a clip.

[A]

Well, yeah, can't take no more home to mother. Back to that boozer. Wait.

[B]

Can't wait to be home again.

[A]

I can't wait to be back out again. Don't know about that. Only one thing worse than being at sea boy, anyhow. Oh, yeah. Not being a sea.

[B]

I think that clip works because you can hear how much work the sound is doing. I said everything is post sync with him. So everything, all the dialogue, all the sound effects, all the noise of the boat is all constructed after the shoot. And it's such a big part of the film. It's amazing how immersive the experience is. I mean, this. I was on set for one day and you know, there's Mark holding this handheld clockwork camera and it captures images that put you right there on the boat. And it's thanks in no small part also to that soundtrack. I mean, this is a fishing boat that reminds you that fishing is one of the most dangerous professions that there is. This is a world of world of pulleys and ropes and engines and cranking chains and creeping, creaking timbers. And you know, it's. This is a. This is a brutal world for all its beauty. But the wider drama having sort of brilliantly kind of conjured this fishing milieu, which I think it just does so terrifically. The wider drama is about these two time periods, the past and the near present. Characters who are kind of broken and lost in one time frame being more connected and vibrant than the other. And the two central characters react very differently. George Mackay's character just wants to get back. Wants to get back to his own time. He's bewildered, he's horrified by what's happening. Indeed, when he first gets on the boat, he finds a message scratched on it which says get off the boat. Which you suspect that maybe he has written to himself. Callum Turner's character, on the other hand, seems to fit right in. He. There's a. There's a relationship that he appears to be in. He's.

[A]

He's.

[B]

It's, it's as if he stepped into another man's shoes. And I think the thing that this is. I mean, this is a really great praise for it. I was thinking when I was watching it of the amazing Mr. Blunden, which is. I don't. Have you seen the amazing Mr. Blunden?

[A]

See, I don't think so.

[B]

So really, really wonderful film from the 1970s. It's based on a novel, the Ghost by Antonia Barber, who incidentally lived down here in Mousehole in Cornwall, wrote the Mousel Cat. But that's a world in which. That's a story in which two worlds coexist in which there is the present world and there is the world of the past and their characters are ghosts in each other's stories. And it's a story about having to go back into the past to change something, to save the future from itself. And in the case of this, there is a sort of redemptive thing going on about community, about the importance of community, about what it meant when this particular trade was thriving and how a village lived and then became something else. And this somehow this looping back into the past, it's almost as if the sea, the waves, the boat is bringing people back because there's something that needs to be fixed in the past. And now, as with all of Mark Jenkins previous films, you have to pay close attention to detail. You know, it's all. There's no, there's no one sitting around explaining the plot to you. You have to notice, for example, that the time that the ship, the boat has its nameplate, Rose of Nevada on it, and the times that it doesn't tells you about which time period you're in. But no one's ever going to explain the plot to you. But I think that where this really. I mean this. It's a Mark Jenkins film from beginning to end. Nobody makes movies like he does. But I think that what this has is a brilliantly constructed time traveling narrative that has emotional heft. I mean, I think this is eerie. I think it's heartbreaking. I mean, there is a really heartbreaking. Two heartbreaking love stories going on in it that I think will. Will connect with a much wider audience than. I mean, I said when I was talking about last Year I said, you know, a Cornish modern class, heartbreaking, wonderful. And I stand by that. I think that's on the poster. And it's also buoyed up by great performances, not just from the two leads, but also from regulars like Ed Roe. There's an all but unrecognizable appearance by Mary Woodvine in one of the stories in which I was, I mean, I, you know, I know Marc Jenkin, I know Mary Woodvine. I was on set one day in which she was playing one of the characters and I didn't even recognize that it was her. This is my favorite film of the year so far, and I would be really, really surpr if it gets surpassed. I've seen it twice now and both times it just knocked me for six. I think it's wonderful.

[A]

Is Nevada relevant or is it just the name of.

[B]

It's the name of the boat. It's the name of the boat. But, but, but here's what I would say. There is nothing in any Mark Jenkins film that isn't relevant. And I would make a comparison with David lynch, which is that thing about we must pay close attention when you make films like this. There is nothing that is in there by accident, but it's, but it's also. There is nothing in there to be explained definitively.

[A]

Okay, so the name of the boat is relevant, but it's a film to find.

[B]

But it's, I think. But it's, yeah, it's up to you.

[A]

So it might not be relevant.

[B]

That's not what I said.

[A]

I said it's up to me whether I decide.

[B]

It's up to you. What you, what you read into that.

[A]

Does it actually exist?

[B]

Does the boat exist? Yes. Yes.

[A]

Existentialist.

[B]

Oh, I see. Yes. It's not a piece of, Not a piece of furniture. Yes, it actually exists. All right. It actually exists.

[A]

Okay. And a big, big release, I mean,

[B]

rolled out everywhere, weirdly enough. So I, I got in touch with the bfs. I got this.

[A]

You're like a producer on this film.

[B]

I thank you. So it said that it's opening in 124 screens, including View and Cineworld. So from. It's a BFI release. So for them, this is, this is a big flagship. This is their Star wars, basically.

[A]

Wow. Okay. [e-mail] Once you've seen Rose of Nevada, please send us your reviews. Still to come after the break, Mark will be talking about Michael. You'll hear about Half man with our special guest, Richard Gad. Plus the Laughter Lift, where The jokes always reach the top floor.

[B]

Boom, Boom.

[A]

It's time to bring on the blooms at the Home Depot with spring garden deals. Find savings on hanging baskets and flowers to brighten your backyard or any space that needs instant color. Then get everything you need to plant and protect them with low prices guaranteed on soil and mulch. Dig into spring garden deals for four days at the Home Depot now through May 10th. Exclusion supply. See homedepot.com pricematch for details. Fabio Sementilli. Big hearts, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche.

[B]

He was like a wizard behind the chair.

[A]

The killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out.

[B]

There was rampant speculation about everything, but

[A]

every wild theory was wrong because the truth was even more unbelievable. What is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking, the uncertainty of

[B]

not knowing is a form of agony.

[A]

From Sony Music Entertainment and novel, this is Cut Color Kill. Hello, I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on the Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast. To start listening today, subscribers to the Binge can listen to all episodes all at once ad free. Okay, here comes the box office top 10 at number 15, California scheming, which,

[B]

as I said, I think is an interesting dramatic retelling of a story that was told previously in a Jeannie Finley documentary, the great Hip Hop Scandal, which I think was great hip hop hoax. Pardon me, which I think is the superior work.

[A]

Number 14 is undertone, a really interesting

[B]

horror film, really stripped down, tiny location and all to do with the sound of the tagline for it was the scariest film you'll hear. And I, I really enjoyed it.

[A]

It's number 25 in America. Ian McCauley says, Love the show is this is Undertone, the best film about Fergal Sharkey that was never made very good, obviously. And Nick says, well, that was disappointing. After settling into a promising start and strong concept, I spent the majority of Undertones runtime trying not to doze off, leave, or heaven forbid, check my phone. When it picked up in the last five minutes, it was too little, too late. And all I could think of was, aha, they're trying to do a tie west, but without the tension ratcheting Slow Burn Bill to pay off effectiveness of that director's work, such as X House of the Devil or the terrifying the Innkeepers. All it. All in all, it reminded me of my unfortunate experience with the Blair Witch Project, in that I found the characters, double Dutch tilting camera work and supposed scary bits, equal parts tedious and irritating and the film's lack of clear resolution nothing but immensely frustrating. But then I was in the minority on that classic, so maybe I'll be about this too. Bit of a missed opportunity if you ask me, because the core idea of podcast found footage horror was a great one, says Nick.

[B]

I mean, I think the fact that you cite Blair Witch, which I think does relate to this and that you didn't like Blair Witch, which some people didn't, I think in a way that's fine. I really did like Blair Witch and I really did like this. And I would just remind people if you weren't there when Blair Witch came out, it's very, very hard to remember just how alarming it was. I have a colleague friend, now an actor, but was a film critic who was so traumatized by it when they saw it at Cannes. There is film of them outside the screening room afterwards in a state of almost total collapse, hyperventilating because they were so panicked by what they'd seen.

[A]

Do many critics become actors? I would have thought that's very unusual.

[B]

Yeah, no, I don't think it's that common of role. Quite a few critics go on to become filmmakers as we were discussing before when we were talking about the whole Jean Luc Goddard thing and But. And Nouvelle Vogue the film is called but but I don't think it's that common. No.

[A]

Number 13, you, Me in Tuscany. It's number five in America. Joe in Yorkshire. Dear Wetshirt, unbuttoned in one scene and missing in the next. Full time emailing. Maybe first time to make it onto the show. There were three people in my screening of you, Me and Tuscany. The first was my dad who fell asleep for half the film and got up and walked around the corridor outside for the other half. The second was myself who spent the whole film thinking that the endless spreads of gorgeous looking food would make me very ill with my IBS former Conservative lead, obviously. And the third was my 15 year old younger sister who smiled and laughed and was happy throughout. And at the end of the day, does anything else really matter? Kind regards, Joe in Yorkshire, small plastic brick collector and 12 time failee of my year five school swimming certificate.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

How can you fail? Wow. I mean, I suppose Joe, you're fortunate to be alive if you fail swimming certificate 12 times. Should have got the. I think you should have got the message after three or four.

[B]

Is that when you have to do the thing about tying. Tying a Knot in your pajamas and then something like that, making a balloon out of them. And I always thought, but what happens if you. If you get thrown in the water and you're not in your pajamas? Yes.

[A]

Dan thought of that. Very smart. Anyway, you, me in Tuscany at number 13.

[B]

Yeah. I haven't seen it, so I can't. I can't contribute.

[A]

Okay, number 10. So we're rocking into the top 10.

[B]

Okay. This. I want to do this properly. So go on.

[A]

Number 10. Number nine in America is Booth Bangler.

[B]

No, no, you've jumped over number 12.

[A]

I have. Because that's what it says here. Okay. Number 12 is. Number 12 is Glen Rothen right now.

[B]

So the last time you and I spoke, you were yet to speak to Brian Cox and you were yet to watch the movie. I.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Then the interview went out, which I hadn't heard at the time. We did the review, and I said,

[A]

and then I had seen the film, and then I interviewed Brian Cox.

[B]

Fine. So then I reviewed the film. So now I want to know, now that you've seen the film, what did you think?

[A]

I was. I'd worked out a line. If Brian asked me what I thought of the film, I would say I was surprised how kind it was.

[B]

That's a good line.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That's a good line.

[A]

That's it. Really. Yes, I, you know, it was. It was lots of beautiful scenes, and they're very, you know, watchable performances. And a lot of whiskey was drunk. And Brian's very interesting man. That's what I thought.

[B]

And it's a very kind film and surprisingly kind. Yep.

[A]

Anything else to add to that?

[B]

Well, it's creaky, you know, it is creaky as heck, isn't it? It's absolutely schmaltzy, sentimental. You know, I mean, I quite liked it because I really like Brian Cox, and I thought that he kind of has the right. It's just. It's not the film that you would expect from him because it's so saccharine.

[A]

Yeah, it's. But there, you know, there. There is a role for saccharine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of people are addicted to saccharine, so.

[B]

Absolutely is. Absolutely is.

[A]

So I'll stick with surprisingly kind.

[B]

Yeah, that's fine.

[A]

Okay. Okay. So there's hoppers at number 11.

[B]

Yeah. Which, you know, I kind of enjoyed. It was fun.

[A]

And number 10, as I mentioned, Booth Bangler.

[B]

So this wasn't screened before we went off. The title translates as Haunted Mansion. It's h. Hindi language comedy horror film. If anyone's seen it. Please send us a review.

[A]

Number eight is the BTS World Tour Arirang in Goyang. Live viewing. This is a concert, not a film. BTS on an 85 day world tour. 23 countries celebrating the fact they've done their military service and to heck with all that, let's carry on being pop stars. So they're doing their Elvis thing. Okay, so that's fine. Number seven is Time Hoppers the Silk Road.

[B]

Now again, since we've been off for two weeks, there are three films in this section that I have I won't have seen. So I haven't seen Time Hoppers the Silk Road. It is an animated story. Four gifted children who stumble upon time travel and are thrust into an adventure along the Silk Road to save great scientists from an evil alchemy. I'm just reading the pots, sorry about that.

[A]

Yeah, okay, so if you've seen Time Hoppers, let us know. Magic Far Away Tree at number six.

[B]

I really enjoyed, and I was very surprised by how much I enjoyed it and. But I really thought it was charming, really properly charming.

[A]

James Naylor says, Dear Sergeant angel and P.C. butterman. My family and I attended a cinema as we do once or twice a month, as there is just something special about seeing a film on the big screen rather than waiting for a streaming site to pick it up. We saw the Magic Faraway Tree. This is an exceptional children's film full of magic, hope and togetherness.

[B]

Good.

[A]

My wife described it to a tee when leaving the cinema, saying it's a wholesome family film when the world needs a wholesome family film. And is it interesting how wholesome becomes a kind of almost pejorative really, but actually, no, it just means you can all go and see it and you can all, all enjoy it. You don't have to be nervous. It had some great actors and actresses in it, but the children stole the film, especially Billy Garson as Fran, whose charm and wit makes the film flow and makes the 110 minutes fly by. Both children and my wife said they hope there was a sequel as there are four books and that should there be any, they'd be just as magnificent as this film.

[B]

Well, I, you know, I think it's been received well enough that there, there may well be. Like I said, I just, I thought it was really charming. I think you're absolutely right about wholesome. That's not a pejorative. It's absolutely wholesome.

[A]

Akira is at number five.

[B]

We discussed if you listened to the show last week on take two, the question about why the live action Akira proved to be such a stumbling block. And the reason is, well, just look at the animated Akira and go, okay, do that live. Well also, why would you. I mean Akira is an astonishing piece of work. It's very, very edgy when it first came out now back in cinemas in IMAX presentation and as mind blowing now as it ever was.

[A]

And number four number in the uk, three in America is Lee Cronin's the Mummy.

[B]

Okay, so this is the other one that I haven't. I'm gonna catch up with this. This wasn't actually press screened anyway until really. No, it was Wednesday afternoon and it was gonna, you know, by that point we were well off by that point. It is a re imagining of the Mummy franchise. I did, I have to confess, have a couple of people come up to me and said have you seen it yet? And I said no. They said oh, you need to see it. I said why? They said lots of Exorcist refere said in a good way. They went no. There is a review from one critic that says absurdly watch checkingly overlong, tonally unsure and fatally not scary or the Exorcist with gauze. So I'm going to go and see that now.

[A]

All right, to be reviewed next week. Number three here. Number four over there is the drama Tabitha from Brighton. Yes, says dearest doctors, Tabitha from Brighton here. Long term listener, first time emailer and first time baby carrier writing about an amazing cinema experience I had recently in Glasgow. Having just attended a wedding in the Scottish Highlands, my husband and I were driving back for our late evening flight from Glasgow. My husband had been best man and was feeling more than a little worse for wear. Me being pregnant, on the other hand, was feeling smug and remarkably well rested. We had a few hours to kill before the flight and on a whim searched nearby cinemas. Six minute drive away from the airport we found the showcase cinema in Paisley showing the appropriately wedding themed the drama settling into what can only be described as fully reclining luxury beds. My husband him indoors settled back for 40 wings and I got to enjoy 1 hour 45 minutes of this slightly off key unhinged dark comedy before making it back in perfect time for the flight. It was an extremely successful detour. I think Robert Pattinson in particular was perfectly cast as Zendaya's goony but charming English boyfriend. It's a difficult film to discuss without spoilers, particularly as the marketing has been so careful not to give anything away other than a wedding. I had no idea what the film was about when walking in. I wonder if the film will receive a backlash for making a comedy about such a sensitive topic. I thought the concept was fantastic. Couldn't wait to get into it. Intrigued to hear your thoughts, Good doctors. What has been reviewed already, Tabitha. P.S. you might like to know that listening to your pod is part of my birth plan. I'll let you know how it goes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow. Okay, well, no pressure then. But Tabitha, thank you. Anything to add to the drama? No, just.

[B]

Just think gas and air, madam. No, I'll just have Kermoda Mayo.

[A]

Yes. That kind of numbs me most times. Puts me to sleep. Project hell.

[B]

I love the drum. I love the drummer. I thought it was fabulous. I'm really, really glad you had a good experience with it. Anyway, Project Hail Mary, yeah, is number two everywhere and doing really, really doing. We just look doing really well. And I have had so many people say I went to see it in the cinema. Great cinema experience. How brilliant to be in the cinema with everybody enjoying the movie like that. Anyway, we have some emails.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. Dr. Nicholas R. Moody, M Chem. MRSC. A lot of emails along these lines. But let's. Let's delve into this one. Okay, Simon and Mark. I'm a biochemistry teacher at the University of Nottingham. Very fine university. I would like to comment on the scientific accuracy of Project Hail Mary. I spent the last 10 years in a biochemistry lab, for better or worse, extracting compounds from fungi, evolving bacteria to live in high salt conditions, and assaying enzymes essential for carbon fixation in plants. In fact, my PhD thesis was on the evolution of metabolic enzymes. So I feel I have some grounds to comment. Okay, well, carry on. From a broader strokes point of view, the way the film touches on science is perfect. Never going too deep. Deep. The concepts were given just enough detail so the audience could jump to how to solve the problems. Having done a mutagenesis experiment, I can attest it would not make good cinema. Seeing a person listening to a film podcast in a lab coat while a clear plastic tray sits in an incubator. That said Ryan Gosling's pipetting technique was all over the shop. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this, but Mark, I have many friends who have gone into teaching after their PhD and they have never forgotten how to pipette a viscous substance. His sample was full of air, Mark.

[B]

Was it?

[A]

He should have been using a cut tip or a positive displacement pipette. He got it was the wrong hawk and he swam in the wrong stroke. He got the sample transferred but he would have got a failing grade on his practical if I was his supervisor. He then does the most egregious thing and does not balance his centrifuge. Centrifuges push liquid in vial to the bottom by spinning at high speeds. A counterweight equal to your sample needs placing on the opposite side of the wheel otherwise the system will be unbalanced. Something else Mark you did not point out. No, this would be especially torturous to Rocky as an unbalanced centrifuge would make a horribly horrible high pitched sound that I imagine for a creature who sees in sound would be like a flash bang. If I had a student who did this, I assume that they were just trying to wind me up up. Otherwise I really enjoyed the film. P.S. i spoke to people in Elemental Analysis the way you do and they enjoyed a lot of the shots of some of the more expensive equipment. Down with unsustainable fossil fuel consumption, up with university funding, says Dr. Nick.

[B]

All right, that is a fantastic. That is a fantastic email.

[A]

So it but it is definitely in the it's the wrong hawk territory that Ryan Gosling's pipetting technique was all over the shop and the centrifuge wasn't balanced for this.

[B]

I'd like to say that's not so much in it's the wrong hawk territory as in it's the wrong breaststroke territory. I mean that's, that is taking nerdiness to an extreme and I'm impressed by that dedication.

[A]

Yes, Dr. Nick, we appreciate that. Thank you. Correspondence conemayo.com and number one is the Super Mario Galaxy movie. And number one over there as well.

[B]

Well, that's it.

[A]

Is that it? Okay, so still to come, we have further discussion on films that have been out for a while in the overflow car park that's in take two, which is available ad free on Patreon. In just a moment we talk to Richard Gad about Half man but not Half Biscuit.

[B]

Don't sexy Lotharios often behave abominably towards women?

[A]

Yes, but they don't always behead them or split from the Catholic Church. History's Greatest Fails is the show where we find out why losers make history. Hosted by me, Dan Jones, and me, Elizabeth Day. We're old friends and fellow history graduates, and in this podcast we're going to dig into failures of historical proportions. Listen to History's Greatest Fails on the this Is History podcast feed or watch on YouTube. Infamous is the gossip show. That's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down top model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she, she dominated the 90s.

[B]

You know, she's horny and she's in charge.

[A]

She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults.

[B]

A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life.

[A]

And of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin. I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly and her tagline was the only thing I'm guilty

[B]

of is being shamazing.

[A]

Listen to Infamous, the gossip show. That's smart. The show's called Infamous. Okay, special guest time. Multi award winning screenwriter, playwright and performer Richard Gadd is our guest this week. Won the Edinburgh Comedy Award for his show Monkey See, Monkey do in 2016. He's the creator, writer, star and executive producer of the hit Netflix series Baby Reindeer, which you might have heard about based on his own real life experience and started out as an Olivier award winning one man show. His latest project project is called Half Man. You'll hear my conversation with Richard after this clip.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Come here.

[B]

Look at me. Look at me.

[A]

That's it. Look at me. We might not flow through each other's veins, but we flow through each other's brains.

[B]

You get me one more time, eh? For all time's sake.

[A]

I just need you hear it before

[B]

I lose you forever.

[A]

You're not serious.

[B]

Go on, say it.

[A]

What am I?

[B]

Your brother from.

[A]

Another lover? And that is a clip from Half Man. It was written and created by Richard Gad, who stars in it. Richard, hello. How are you, sir?

[C]

I'm good. Thank very much for having me.

[A]

Welcome to the show. How would you. Do you like doing promotion? Is it the kind of thing that you're naturally at ease doing?

[C]

Oh, it's a good question. I do, I think I, I like it because my life is sort of exists, you know, sitting in edit suites and being on film sets and it feels like a nice exciting thing because it's kind of like the pre buzz to a show coming out. So, so it, it feels exciting. It feels, it feels, it feels nice to do.

[A]

And how does, how does promoting Half man feel as compared with when you were promoting baby reindeer when there was buzz about it but you didn't know presumably quite how big it was going to get. How different does this feel?

[C]

Well, I think with, yeah. Baby reindeer, I suppose it was the unknown. I was still sort of at that point, I wasn't as well known as I am now. And I suppose it was. There was a lot of what if. What's going to happen about sort of baby rain? Is it going to land? Isn't it going to land? And with this, like, I'm just fully aware that there is expectation there now and the following the footsteps of baby reindeer is a big thing. And so the, the whole, the feel of the press and doing the press feels the same, you know, meeting people, chatting to people, all that kind of stuff. But I'm very aware that the expectations are very different now.

[B]

Of course. Of course.

[A]

So introduce us to Half Man.

[B]

What.

[A]

As we start this conversation, what do we need to know, Richard?

[C]

Well, Halfman is essentially the life of Reuben and Niall, the two main characters, and it traverses through the decades in their lives, and it's how they fail to coexist, how they love each other, how they fight and fall out. And essentially the show is about the exploration of, I guess, male repression and male violence and male behavior. I. I just really wanted to dig deep inside the whole naughty subject and just try to get to grips with it in some way.

[A]

Yeah. So you play Ruben. Jamie Bell plays NIALL in the 80s scene, in the earlier scenes, played by Mitchell Robertson and Stuart Campbell, who put in fantastic performances. We realize pretty much straight away that Ruben is dangerous to be around. How would you describe Ruben, your character?

[C]

I think Ruben is, I suppose, the quintessential epitome of repressed male violence, in a way. And I think that he's a man that does not like to be disempowered one iota. And his existence is a sort of reaction without giving away spoilers, but he lives in a very reactive state where any, anything that's a dent on his masculinity, on his pride, results in very extreme behavior.

[A]

In as much as you can tell us as people begin this, Begin this series, what.

[B]

What.

[A]

What's happened to him? Can you tell us that?

[C]

I don't think I can say that this stage, it's a. It's a. That would be possibly too. Too big a spoiler, but I think that. I would say that. Let's just say that it's an exploration of male violence to show male repression, male damage. And I suppose I would say that there is contextualization or an exploration of where that might come from.

[A]

Yeah, so. So Jamie Bell, I mean, he kind of gets referred to. Well, you call him Bambi which is sort of like another reindeer. It's like a deer thing going on there anyway. But you call him Bambi and he's sort of like a stepbrother. What is. What is your relationship with Jamie Bell's character, Nile?

[C]

They, for better or for worse, need whatever the other one brings. There's a line in episode two which I think sums it up up. One needs a head, the other needs a body. I don't think there's too much of a spoiler at this point. And I think that I think they both have what the other person lacks. One wishes to have the sort of physical dominance of the other, the kind of confidence, the charisma, the masmo. And then the other one probably wants to have the opportunity, the success, the. The ability. I suppose that the other one has the polar opposites in a way, but at the same time, they're inextricably bound.

[A]

You are. You have physically transformed. Even just sitting there on the sofa in your T shirt, you're a fine specimen. What did you do to end up looking the way Ruben looks?

[C]

Well, I've actually lost a lot of Ruben weight since filming. I think I didn't want to lug all that mass around anymore. And then, of course, the motivation isn't there. And I'm in edit suites all day, so I've lost a bit of weight from Ruben. But I knew in order to. For people to buy me as Ruben, this kind of swaggering example of sort of masculine rage and violence, that I needed to change everything about myself. You know, I was rake thin when I did Baby Reindeer, and I. I knew I needed to transform. If people were going to buy me as a sort of burly, burly sort of pitme of masculinity, I knew I needed to physically transform as well as vocally transform kind of everything about it. And so I went through an intense year of. Of intense working out, dieting, all kinds of things. I committed to it to the fullest degree.

[A]

People will have been aware, listening to this conversation, Richard, that you've talked about, essentially, there's a lot of conversation about toxic masculinity. But my understanding of your writing process is that you've been writing this for a long time and that you would have started writing this before the manosphere was part of the conversation, before we'd watched Adolescence, which is also part of this conversation. You've been working on this show. I think about this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Since, you know, soon after Baby Reindeer.

[B]

Is that right?

[C]

Well, what happened was I. I wrote a script run Just before, I think Baby Reindeer was commissioned, I, I was doing the Baby Reindeer live playing at the Bush Theater in Time. I think it was 2019 and they. Baby Reindeer, the play was getting shipped about and shopped around and channels were bidding on it and all that. While all that stuff was happening, I was sort of, of pitching this idea out and got interesting and then a script was commissioned off the back of that and I, I wrote that script and then Baby Reindeer was commissioned and so I, I put it on pause. So I'd written one script and I put it on pause for all the time I did Baby Reindeer, which was about four years. And then when Baby Reindeer finished, I thought to myself, well, what do I want to do now? I want to go back to that script and pick that project up and do it again. And thankfully the BBC was still interested. So really I had a four year. I wrote one script, had a four year hiatus, then wrote everything else. So I still think the bulk of Halfman, indeed everything, bar that one script, was done in two years since Baby Reindeer came out.

[A]

There's a piece in Hollywood Reporter Richard from 2024, which, which is an interview with you in which you say this show is going to be called Lions and also. And also that you weren't going to be in it. So what happened?

[C]

Well, Lions was always a kind of, what's it called, like a bookmark name. It was never, I never really. I think I just thought like two men, two lions. I even explained it shows that it never was really grounded in anything properly artistic or particularly good. And it was always like something that I thought I change at a later date. I think I just, I had male pride lines. I pride it. None of it, even now describing it makes me realize what a kind of weak title it kind of was. And I think that I just knew our hope that a better title would come up. And I thought Halfman really summed up the show perfectly. The second I came up with it, I sort of knew that that was why I wanted to call it. And then I went on a big old campaign of convincing everyone and luckily everyone felt the same way. And then what was the other part of the question?

[B]

It was, yeah, you said in the

[A]

interview you had no intention of being in it.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't. I mean, after Baby Reindeers, it's very like, it's an extra lay of intensity when you're doing a. When you've written the show and you're producing the show and you're always seeing all the kind of creative decisions in a show running capacity to also act in it. And after Baby Ranger, I thought, well, I'll take one thing off my plate and I want to act in it. You almost have to see a show from a sort of internal and external perspective. You're in front of camera, yet you're behind the camera. And it, it's really tough and it's intense and you're kind of analyzing as a writer and a showrunner as you're acting and, and it's just a lot going on. It's just a phenomenal pressure. And I thought I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it. I take a load off and I take one job off my plate. But the more conversation emerged around the show and the possibility of me being in it and the fact that that would sell the show better and, and the fact that it was kind of an exciting prospect for Jamie, I remember Jamie Bell really, really wanted me to, to, to be Reuben and, and the fact that he was so behind it and the fact that the channels were too, and it terrified me enough to, to want to do it, which is usually my doctrine in life.

[A]

Could you have played Jamie Bell's character?

[C]

I, I, well, I mean, I, I'm up for any challenge. I think like I always like if, if that was, but, but I, I, I only really wanted Jamie for that role. I, I, I, I sort of, I guess I, I, I thought in a lot of ways if I was going to be in it, I would maybe be like a bit of a sort of more side character, maybe like Comet relief character or I, I'd be like less regularly in it. Like I would be one of the leads. That was my sort of vague plan. I might make a cameo appearance of some kind. But Jamie, I, Jamie just felt right to me when I was writing. I never, my mind never goes to actors when I'm writing. But the more and more like I got into Niall, the more and more I thought of Jamie and I couldn't shake it. It's an idea. And so I thought, well, that has to come for something. So I approached him and he's always been my Nile ever since he's expressed interest back the other way.

[A]

What did you. Obviously there's aspects of baby reindeer which you can't talk about because of court cases and so on. But what did you learn from baby reindeer which you were able to put into good effect here for Half Man?

[C]

I think what I learned mainly from baby reindeer, I guess process wise was that the, you know, hard work yields results. I hope I Hope that's the same would happen. I don't know how it's going to be received. I hope it's received well. Well, one, one can hope and pray. But I think like, I think like Baby Ranger was an astonishing sort of feat of effort, I feel. And I always look back at it and think I worked so, so, so hard. And I guess it as a result of that, you know, it did go well and I realized that the more you put into a project, the more likely something is to come off the back of it. And I took all of that sort of hard work and sort of determination and I, I reapplied it to HM and worked in just as hard away on this. So that was the main thing I took away from baby reindeer. It's like life, you get out of life what you put into it. It's like never true. Word said.

[A]

You know, you did say that since baby reindeer it's been like walking around naked. Do you still, do you still feel that?

[C]

I think, yeah. I think that speaks to a sort of, maybe like a sort of ex feeling of just maybe being exp. Just a bit more exposed. Like, just a bit like people know who you are, people look at you more. Yeah, I mean in Baby Ring, you know, in the high, when it was the most sort of like zeitgeisty show on the planet Earth, like it was, it was way more intense than it is now. Like things have come down like significantly now, but like I felt like at that time I almost couldn't walk past a single person without them stopping and saying something. And now it happens more regularly. You still get funny looks. You still don't know any given time whether somebody's going to come up and they're just going to start chatting to you. You can be having a meal and it can happen, you know, and, and that's the feeling of being naked. That's the feeling of just not really knowing. Just, just people looking at you all the time. I guess that's, that's the feeling.

[A]

On the plus side, you get invited to do things like soccer aid.

[C]

No, soccer aids is the best. Honestly, it's the best thing I've ever done in my life. I, I still can't believe it happened. And I, I, I, I, I think I'll, I've framed the, the, the shirt. I've got, I've got it on my wall. I, if I think about it, I always get emotional. I just time. What can I say? It was the best thing I've ever done.

[A]

Who, who, who Are you playing with?

[C]

Oh, I played with loads of people. I mean, I could take you through the whole lineup if you wanted. But like, I was center, I, I, I, I'll keep it simple. I was center backs with Vidic, which was unbelievable because Vi, one of the best center backs of all time. And, and it was me and him at center back together and that was just a real privilege. And ahead of Van der who, one of the best keepers Premier League's ever seen and, and just an absolute gentleman movement. I could talk and talk and talk about it. Honestly, I could. Yeah, Harry Cure was left back. It was, it was a phenomenal experience.

[A]

Richard, it's very nice to talk to you. Thank you for your time. Do you know what you're doing next is that is like a holiday. I mean, if, have you started writing the Next thing already?

[C]

I haven't started writing the Next thing. I can't say what it is. But I do have an idea up my sleeve that I'm very keen to explore. But yeah, as you say before that, it's definitely a holiday. I certainly need a break.

[A]

Richie. Gad, we appreciate your time. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

[C]

Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Really appreciate that. Thank you.

[A]

Would you agree, Mark, that Vidic is one of the best center backs?

[B]

Well, can I just say, on the subject of football, that I'm instructed to say to you, I'm so sorry for your loss.

[A]

I, I've renounced football. I'm not interested in football anymore. Okay.

[B]

I didn't even understand what the relevance of it was, but then everyone went, just, just tell Simon.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's slightly premature, but not that much. And I, I, I have separated my life now, so I intend to have as much interest in football as you.

[B]

Very good. Welcome to my world.

[A]

Yeah. So Vidich, one of the best center backs, obviously. I mean, I think you'll probably agree with that.

[B]

Yeah, I, I think he's, he's nippy on his toes. Yes. He definitely, he's, he's fast. The thing that he's really good at is helping to set up goal scores.

[A]

Yeah, probably not. Okay, there is one, there is one issue with half man, which I, which I need to just mention. Mention. I, I should have mentioned it to Richard, apart from the half biscuit bit and that is, there is a, there's a, a disco scene, like a dance. So no one calls it a disco anymore. But there's, they're in a nightclub and they're all a bopping and A moving and a shaking. And they're dancing to the Boomtown Rats. And you really don't dance to the Boomtown Rats.

[B]

And they're specifically dancing. They're specifically dancing to Rat Trap, which it's. Which it's hard to dance to because it's got sections. Yes.

[A]

And when you've been caught. And then it changes very. And what you can't. You can't do that. So with the exception of the fact that you're not supposed to dance to the Boomtown Rats, let's talk about Half Man.

[B]

So, great interview, incidentally, and I've watched the whole six hours of the series, although I'm very aware that this, you know, I shouldn't discuss much more than just what you've talked about in the interview because I want to spoil it for anybody. So in that interview, Richard Gad said that it's an exploration of male repression, male violence, male behavior, male damage centers on two characters, Reuben and Niall, who described to each other as brothers from another lover. Chalk and cheese. Again, to quote, one needs a head, the other needs a body. So one is intellectual reserve, what Molesworth would have described as utterly wet and a weed. We meet him.

[A]

Hello, clouds. Hello, Sky.

[B]

Hello, clouds. Hello, sky. Exactly. Fatherington Thomas. And we meet him at school being bullied, beaten up, because he's got. I think they're Indiana Jones trading stickers, aren't they? There's a running Harrison Ford joke. The other comes to live in his room and he is a thug. Loud, strong, dangerous, maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer. They are polar opposites. But the crucial thing is that they are, in many senses, two halves of a divided soul. The series is called Half Man. There is. There is an element here of Fight Club. We'll talk about, incidentally, in. In Take two. That idea of two characters being two sides of one person, that's not a plot spoiler. It's not literally that, but it's a. And as you mentioned, the original title was Lions. That's lions plural, not lion and lamb. These are both men who have both been touched in different ways by the anxiety, the toxicity, the weakness of maleness. And it just manifests itself in very different ways. And that duality is also emphasized by the fact that there are two stories that unfold in separate time periods. This relates both back, partly, I suppose, to Rose and Nevada. We're going back between time frames, and those time frames speak to each other. So this is a movie that travels in time, even if it's not a time traveling Maybe not a movie, a TV series. Gad says that Reuben is the epitome of repressed male violence. Sorry, there's so many great quotes in the interview. A swaggering example of masculine rage and violence who lives in a very reactive state. State. So if his masculinity or power is questioned or challenged, it provokes violence. And you asked what happened to him to get him to that point. And Richard Gad demurs. Well, I think one of the reasons he demures is that very much later on in the series, that question is to some extent answered specifically. But the thing is, that's not the point. The point is, you know, that anyone who has this level of physical violence and rage in them is. It's the phrase about hurt people, hurt people, isn't it? That, you know, that damaged people damage people. So you know from the beginning that there are demons lurking in his past. Incidentally, in both time periods, the performances are terrific. I mean, obviously, Jamie Bell never puts a foot wrong in anything. I mean, I'm getting to the point of just thinking. I almost want. I want to see Jamie Bell be bad in something just because, you know, he just never puts a foot wrong. But also, the two younger performances, I think it's Stuart Campbell and Mitchell Robertson. They're amazing. I mean, they're amazingly good performances. So here's a weird thing. Because of the way the BBC preview system works, I accidentally watched this out of order. I watched episode three first, thinking. Thinking that it was the start. I then realized my mistake and then went back and did episode one and two. But here's the interesting thing about it. When I watched episode three, thinking it was the first episode, it made perfect sense. And I think that tells you something about the storytelling. There is a sort of labyrinthine tale unfolding here of conflicting loyalties and unexpected allegiances and alliances. But the scenes that I was seeing in episode three told their own backstory, because the people does add up to a coherent whole. And I think that's because, despite the profound differences of the characters, they all exist in a coherent ecosystem, an ecosystem in which that underlying male rage and weakness manifests in different forms. But you can see how they're all feeding into each other. I mean, it was so fascinating. You asked Richard if he could have played the Jamie Bell character. What's interesting isn't what he said in his answer. It was the fact that you asked that question. Because in asking that question, what you were suggesting is exactly one of the things that the program raises, which was that for all their protestations These two characters are two faces of the same issue. That same kind of, you know, anxiety, shame. Absolutely shame. Repressed rage and sometimes not repressed rage. I mean, look, I haven't seen the Louis Theroux program, but you mentioned a scene in it in which there's this kind of bombastic alpha male character who's living with his mom and you know, he says, mum, I don't want to do that. And I mean, the root of all of this is this kind of impotence, Impotency posing as exaggerated testosterone. I found that I, the fact that I watched all six hours of it, I think says something about the quality of it. I found it very hard at times. And at times the, the way in which the drama leaps backwards and forwards. I can imagine some people being perhaps frustrated by it because the way in which it reveals itself, I mean, right up until the last episode, it's revealing things that you hadn't seen because the way the deck of the narrative is shuffled. But it is dealing with some really, really tough stuff. And I found it quite a hard watch. But I think it was really well done. And I think that again, as we were saying last week when we invented the. Not the bladder sphere, the dither sphere or the Witter sphere which we want to live in, it says something very, very important about the state of male. Well, you know, as I said to go back and exactly that phrase that he used in your interview. An exploration of male repression, male violence, male behavior, male male damage. So I, I thought it was very impressive.

[A]

The definitive answer as to what sphere we're actually in. It comes up in questions.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Which we'll sort out in take two. But anyway, Richard Care, just a very interesting guy with lots of interesting ideas and Half man will certainly create a lot of waves and a lot of interest along the way thanks to him. Once you've seen it. Correspondence Academy Dr. I think we could do with a laughter lift after that because that's obviously carries some serious subject matter. So it is time to ferociously stab the up button and come to the most loved section of the show, which people always tell me, they, they, they say, you know, the, you're okay, the other guy's okay, but the laughter lift

[B]

is what we, that's what we want. Yeah.

[A]

And in the absence of the self declared comedy genius of the redactor, this way week the production team panicked and asked for help from our vanguard Easters on on Patreon, who've had a great time suggesting material. To sum it up a more On Patreon states. Some of these are very, very funny. The rest are perfect for the laughter lift. So.

[B]

Okay, very good.

[A]

Hey, Mark, you enjoyed the dogmatic theology joke so much last week that this week we're going to kick off with an existential one to placate the seemingly huge number of existentialists in our listenership. Yeah, I was so bored on my holiday last week that I went to the local independent cinema to watch Francois Ozone's interpretation of Albert Camus Le Tranger for the second time. I missed the ending though, sadly, because I needed a toilet break. I was full of ennui. So that is actually a joke from the production team. So it's very much.

[B]

That's a good joke.

[A]

It is French term for boredom. I do prefer the German langeville, which seems to be.

[B]

Seems crosser.

[A]

Yeah, it does seem more annoyed, doesn't it? When I was on holiday, I got to spend some time with the younger members of the family and I think their sense of humor may have rubbed off on me. So. Knock knock.

[B]

Who's there? Europe. Europe.

[A]

Europe.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Thanks to Kathy Dolan on Patreon via her niece. Okay, that works. I have to say that works. Europe. I went to the, the local video shop.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

Which of course just around the corner in Showbiz North London. And I said, could I borrow Batman Forever, please? And he said, no, you're gonna have to bring it back tomorrow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Graham hall on Patreon, a joke that's a few years old now. And Steve Hodgson on Patreon. I, I bought my friend in showbiz London an elephant for his room. He said thanks. I said, don't mention it.

[B]

Hey, that's a well constructed joke.

[A]

I think. Think that's, I think that's very good.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

So, so the laughter lift. Genuinely funny.

[B]

Genuinely funny. Simon Paul, stay away.

[A]

Who needs him? Who needs him? Mark. Okay, I'm going to. Do you know what's coming up? This is the bit where I say what's.

[B]

Michael, Michael, Michael's.

[A]

Coming up next. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[C]

I don't know if you knew this,

[B]

but anyone can get the same Premium

[A]

Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.

[C]

So do like I did and have

[A]

one of your assistant's assistants switch you

[C]

to Mint Mobile today.

[A]

I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail] A text says you're on my mind. A bouquet from 1-800-Flowers says you're my everything. Heartfelt moments belong in the real world, not just your phone. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers has helped millions of people make memories that'll last a lifetime with gifts they'll cherish forever. Their expertly curated arrangements and gift baskets shipped nationwide with a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Don't wait for the next big moment. Make it when you visit 1-800-FLowers.com Spotify today. That's 1-800-FLowers. Com Spotify. Okay, so the Michael biopic in just a second. Before we get there, Richie in Hampton. Yes, Very good afternoon. To your big bad selves and glory. To the production team. With one thing and another happening in the world, I wanted to share a story of something purely positive, if you'll indulge me. Yesterday, I attended a re screening of Jurassic park at my local Odeon in Kingston, which I name, knowing that they come out very well here. This is one of the films that I consider to be perfect, along with Mary Poppins, Inside Out, Watership down, and Terminator 2, if you're interested.

[B]

Very good. Very, very good frame of reference.

[A]

Yes. Because even films you absolutely love, you can acknowledge that they're not perfect.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

So, along with my long suffering good lady year six teacher, her indoors, I went along. I arrived shortly before the start of the film and enjoyed several good trailers, particularly the New Masters of the Universe, which looks suitably bonkers. And it was at this point I noted something that had the potential to spoil the experience I'd be looking forward to. At the top of the screen, about an eighth of the picture was spilling over into the ceiling and the same was true at the bottom, thus meaning a quarter of the picture was unwatchable. I thought that maybe it was misaligned for the trailers, but when it changes over to the film, it will sort itself out. However, when the opening to one of my favorite films began, this misalignment was still present. Even the opening subtitle, Isla Nubla was in. Cut in half.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The bottom half of the subtitle spilling onto the bottom. Master at this point. Yeah, and I think Richie's. You know, that's what he was thinking. At this point, I thought, what would Mark do? But having read his very excellent book, the Good, the Bad and the Multiplayer,

[B]

I knew exactly what he would do.

[A]

I knew exactly what he would do. So I steeled myself to go and inform a manager, deciding I would wait until after John Hammond scene in the trailer as I didn't want to miss any of my favorite scenes scenes. It was however, during this excellent piece of acting from the late great Sir Richard Attenborough that my grin from seeing the film went up a further notch when I spotted the picture being refocused to only be on the screen. I can confirm no one left the screening and so the cinema must have done this completely on their own, demonstrating that even in giant multiplexes there are people who still care.

[B]

Very good.

[A]

I went on to thoroughly enjoy one of the greatest films ever made. Pity about the following Stage six sequels which I had never seen on the big screen before. Even Hammond's welcome to Jurassic park line, causing me to get totally emotional and finding myself welling up with tears. I would very much like to hear a retro review of both of your thoughts of this film if you find time in your schedule. Tickety tong to you both. And up with good old pictures that allow editors to remain on shot for more than a second. Also up with the Hungarian people who seem to have overwhelmingly voted for love, cooperation and respect over what many countries are dealing with. And I did check this morning whether we have any listeners in Hungary and we do. This is according to the Iwitter app, fantastic. Yeah, full of lots of interesting. And the map of course is just genuinely fascinating. And we do have listeners in Hungary, so we would love to hear from them. If you want to get in touch correspondencevanobed.com but that, that is good to know that someone was watching and refocused and didn't have to be told old.

[B]

That is, that is really, really, really encouraging. Really encouraging that that happens. So what a good, what a good news story.

[A]

That is Rupert Wilson in Hollywood, but county down version.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Dear Happer and Moritz, long term list of first time email. I recently went full kermode and watched Local Hero for the first time while on a railway journey to deepest darkest Cornwall. How much more Como can you get?

[B]

And Simon, before you go on, before you go on, what T shirt am I wearing?

[A]

Oh, Knox Oil and Gas.

[B]

Thanks for calling Knox Oil and Gas. Explain what Knox Oil and Gas is the oil company from Local Hero.

[A]

Thank you. Having finished the film, I went on YouTube and came across a culture show piece of Mark and director Bill Forsyth attending a special 25th anniversary screening to celebrate the reopening of Pen and Village hall where many of the classic scenes from the film were shot in 2008. So far so heartwarming. However, imagine my surprise to see several shots in the segment of Mark and Bill casually chatting in not so hushed voices while playing in flagrant violation of the code. Mark claimed to have seen the film hundreds of times, so presumably knew every line. But poor Bill said he hadn't watched it in 23 years and was probably trying to concentrate, only to have Mark persistently buzzing like an angry wasp in his right ear. Another case of rules for thee but not for me from these media celebrity types. While not shown in the clip, I presume another patron hailed an usher and had you both removed from the screening.

[B]

Keep up the good work.

[A]

Yours sticking me, Rupert Wilson in Hollywood.

[B]

I'd just like to absolutely clarify this because believe me, it's something that caused me some anxiety. I didn't prod Bill. What happened was, as we were watching the film, Bill turned to me and said, this is a cut version. And I said, no, it's not. He said, it's a cut version. There's scenes missing. And I said, bill, I've seen this film like a hundred times. This is the film. And then Bill went, I think I must be remembering the script. And he, because he hadn't seen the film in a very long time, thought that he was watching a cut version of it and kept saying, there's a bit when this happens. And then he was remembering the script. It was one of the strangest things. One of the strangest things. But I, believe me, I was really conscious of the talking in the film. We were doing it in as sotto voce as was possible. But in my defense, I was replying to the director, not the other way around.

[A]

Had you taken your shoes off? No. Okay, okay, that's fine. Rupert, thanks very much indeed for getting in touch. Correspondenceurbenobear.com from the sublime to the ridiculous. Here we go.

[B]

Michael 12A for moderate threat, domestic abuse, listed on the BBFC website as biopic of US singer Michael Jackson following various events in his life from his childhood to the mid-1980s. So from Gary, Indiana, as a child to stardom with the Jackson 5, then breaking away, becoming a solo artist, and the Messiah. The film's produced by Graham King, who also produced Bohemian Rhapsody, directed by Antoine Fuqua, who made Training Day, for which Denzel Washington won an Oscar. Three Equalizer movies written by John Logan, who's Oscar nominated for Gladiator, also the Aviator and Hugo. So, you know, very decent pedigree. Cast includes Jafar Jackson, son of Jermaine Jackson, as Michael Jackson, a role which that's in the. In the adult incarnation, a role which he plays extremely convincingly. Miles Teller as lawyer manager John Branca. Lawrence Tate as Barry Gaudy. And most importantly, Coleman Domingo as the Jackson brothers dominating father Joe. Here is a clip.

[C]

Let me tell you something.

[A]

In this life, you are the winner for your loser. Y' all want to work in a steel mill like me for the rest of your days? No, sir.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause I sure as hell though. Y' all willing to fight for it? Yes, sir.

[B]

I need to hear you a little louder. Y' all willing to fight for it? Yes, sir.

[A]

Ready whenever you are, Michael. Woo. Do you know what I'm after?

[B]

You want be the biggest star in the world?

[A]

We need to capitalize on Michael's success

[C]

because the Jackson family is the brand

[A]

that's our Coca Cola, and we need to start selling. So I'm planning an international tour. This is just the beginning.

[B]

It is just the beginning. The film itself feels like just the beginning. And the main question is, where's the rest of it? So the film is super authorized in this story. Michael and to some extent his brother, his brothers, is a victim of his father's ambition. Joe forces them to rehearse, takes them out of school to perform, savagely beats Michael when as a child, he. He isn't up to snuff. He's the band's manager and nemesis. Under his cruel tutelage, they achieve success. But Michael is also trapped. He wants to go solo. His dad won't let him out of his grip. So indeed, the primary arc of the story of Michael the movie is how young Michael escapes the strictures of his father's tyranny to become the singular King of Pop and as I mentioned before, the Messiah. So it is very much a story of triumph over adversity, of a young abused boy becoming an independent adult, someone who is blessed with an almost preternatural talent, a talent that stuns everyone who meets him. Now, it's absolutely undeniable that Michael Jackson had such a talent, you know, an astonishing talent. And the film is very, very celebratory of that. And there's also some of the quirkier stuff about Jackson that we all know, you know, so we get, you know, the Peter Pan of pop thing is there, his love of the. Of the original story and Disney cartoons and illustrations, his childlike behavior as an adult. He goes to a toy store at one point and buys all the toys and signs, toys for kids. And then he brings Twister home and he's upset because his brothers don't want to play Twister, they want to go out and do grown up stuff. His devotion to the growing menagerie of pets who, he says they're not pets, they're friends. A rat, then a llama, then a giraffe, and then, of course, bubbles, infamously bubbles. There's also a very coy interaction with his penchant for plastic surgery. We see him looking at an illustration of Peter Pan's nose and touching it and then, then going to get his own nose changed. Because he says this, it affects the symmetry of his face. The doctor telling him, you're a really good looking guy, you don't need this. But he's going to do it anyway. So a few brief references to Vitiligo, the blotchy pigment condition that was used to explain away the, the gradual lightening of Michael Jackson's skin over the years. I mean, just, you know, look at the images. Although the, the, the whole, whole issue of the overall whitening isn't addressed at all. What is addressed is how Jackson became one of the very first black artists to break mtv, which as people are now sort of remembering, was horrifyingly white in its early years. We have the still really alarming hair on fire Pepsi commercial incident that leaves him with pain and nerve damage, which will require plot point, a very large amount of pain medication, something which he initially resists. Although it's set up as, you know, we know that this doesn't end well. And we have an awful lot of him being smilingly kind to children in need. From an early scene in which young Michael is on stage and sees

[A]

a

[B]

young girl in the audience who particularly, you know, would benefit from him singing to her or to moments in hospital when he's in hospital and he visits kids on the ward and finds a kinship with them in which he literally, he lights up their lives. I mean, he makes things better because he's got a gift. He's been given a special gift and his special gift has to be shared. He's there to make the world better. And it's during these interactions that he realizes his purpose. That's why he was put here with all this talent to heal the world. He is in essence becoming the second coming. He is the Messiah with a sing song speaking voice, a pitch perfect musical gift, a sense of otherworldliness that suggests that he would indeed have been best friends with ET and in one scene, having watched the news report about gang violence in la, he basically solves gang violence by doing the dance moves for his latest track, all this is fine up to a point because I've seen enough hagiographic pop biopics it would be peculiar to take issue with that. The problem is that when you've got all of that stuff and you've got central performances which are very decent, as I said, the central performance of Michael Jackson is convincingly Michael Jackson and Colman Domingo, really, let's rip as the abusive father. The songs, incidentally are, as you and I have discussed, bangers. The problem is there is a whole other film not happening. There is a whole other story not happening around which this film is not so much doing the hot shoe shuffle as the 500 meter dash. As far away as possible, as fast as possible. As I said, the film starts with his childhood and ends somewhere around the 80s. And one could possibly argue that because of where it ends. Ah, well, chronologically that doesn't allow for any of the darker stuff we know about, but we all know about the darker stuff we all know that, for example, you know, Bad comes out in 87. And one of the high profile accusers of Michael Jackson in that documentary Leaving Neverland dates their interaction back to around that period. I mean, do we remember the Martin Bashir interview in which Michael Jackson said, you know, about having slept in a bed with children? Which is just the most wonderful and natural thing, I think. No, it isn't. It absolutely isn't. The point is, chronology alone is not an argument enough for leaving out not just some of the difficult stuff, but all of it. Now it's interesting because according to Variety, the film was originally going to open in 1993 with Jackson looking out of the window of his Neverland ranch as the police arrive to, you know, at the beginning of all the legal stuff. Those scenes are gone, as is any reference to any abuse allegations. Some reports say that the last act of it had to be reshot because of a recent court case settlement with one of his accusers who now is not able to be represented on screen or is forbidden for anyway. Whether or not what the truth of that is, I have no idea. All I can tell you is what is in the film now. And what I can tell you is that the film ends with a card which says his story continues. Now, there's been a lot of stuff in the press about they're gonna make another one. Because if this turns out to be a hit and with the songs that it has and the performances that it has, it's entirely possible that that will be the case. Bear in mind, the Michael Jackson musical has been running in The West End for as long as I can remember. I mean, you and I both walk past it four times a week. So there's. But if they can, how would they make a second film? I mean, there was talk of this film originally being a four hour film that was then cut down, but at one point they were gonna cut it down into two movies. I know maybe there's enough footage to make another movie. Certainly the studio have been teasing that idea. So how are you going to do it? How are you going to do it? Because the second movie is just going to be all the weird stuff. It's just going to be him dangling a baby over the balcony of a hotel. It's going to be the Earth song debacle stuff. It's going to be Jarvis Cocker making that. You know, that much reported on stage, pop protest. It's going to be the weird stuff with Lisa Marie Presley and the marriage or the non marriage. The absence of his face from promotional materials because everything has become so changed and strange, they don't even want it in videos. And the growing welter of allegations that just got grimmer and grimmer and grimmer. How is that going to make a part 2? In the meantime, what you have is a film that for all its nuts and bolts efficiency, and as I said, it's made by people who know how to make movies, is comedically horrifically hagiographic. I mean, at one point I actually started to wonder if you could play it on a double bill with Melania because it has the same kind of. I'm going to tell this story and I'm not going to do anything else. Now, I am not saying for one minute that if people want just Michael Jackson, the pop tunes, which were great, and a perfectly nuts and bolts pop biopic of that stuff, fine. The thing is, you can't just have that. You can't simply pretend that a whole other side of the story that has since overshadowed all of this doesn't exist. And as a result of it, there was no moment in watching this movie that I felt comfortable. In fact, what I felt was profoundly uncomfortable because it was literally like the movie was to going, going, don't look over there, don't look over there. Don't look over there, don't look over there. And I just, I think it's really remarkable that you could make this movie in the way it's been made and not expect people to go, where's the rest of it?

[A]

Because you would imagine that the film, you know, and a Michael Jackson biopic is obviously a great idea. Obviously it's an extraordinary story. But a movie that tells the truth would not get permission to have the music in. So that, so that, that's the problem, isn't it? That if you, if you, if you tell a tr. If you tell a story about that second bit, you're not gonna get permission to do it. So you won't have the music and therefore it'll feel a bit bereft.

[B]

Well, Graham King, the producer, was quoted as saying that the, that the Bipik was going to humanize but not sanitize Jackson Stor. That is preposterous in terms of what is now on screen. What is now on screen is a second coming narrative. It is. I mean the messianic stuff is absolutely nuts. Like laugh Out Loud funny. It really, it's that level of hagiographic. So it's not just that it's not telling one story, it's that it is actively creating another story that is below.

[A]

It'd be very interesting to see what happens to this film because I suspect you're right, Mark. In the same way that the musical is still there in the West End, you know, under very difficult circumstances. You know, all kinds of shows are struggling. That's still there. There are a lot of people who are very happy to just see that bit that you're talking about to, to look the other way, to not be interested in that part of the story and just concentrate on this bit story.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and that's what it does. I still think, I still think even those people are going to have a problem with, with some of the smile, the smiling pop Jesus stuff. I think, I think you know. But, but hey, what Do I know?

[A]

Correspondencevon.com if you see it, we would like to know what you think correspondencecoveramer.com for next week's show. Also what we're after and you can use that email for sending audio and sending videos for assorted Watson bits and pieces. Cinematic or cinematic adjacent is where we've ended up, I think. And here's our first for this week. Hello, we're 1927. We've made a big animated silent film to accompany Olivier Messian's Turangalila Symphony. It's going to be scored by the Royal Philharmonic. Stephen Osborne on piano. Cecile after Garbage on Martineau one night only. 23rd of April, Royal Festival Hall, 7:30. Just because you're making a video, it doesn't mean that you can ignore the audio. So please make sure that you're Actually in front of a microphone and, and not over here.

[B]

And as you did that, which is

[A]

really, really good, you can come and find us at the South Bank. Not going to work. Did my camera follow me around?

[B]

It did. It was hilarious. Your camera followed you into all the

[A]

nooks and crannies that are not supposed to be seen in the first place. Anyway, thank you very much. Okay, here's our second one this week. Hello, Simon and Mark. This is Joanna Callahan, director of Goodbye Breasts. This documentary tells the story of my two time breast cancer diagnosis and my creative approach to recovery from it. We're on a Q and A tour with Picture House Cinemas in April and May, starting on 14 April in Brighton, followed by London, Norwich, Cambridge, York, Oxford, Bath and back to London. We'd love to see you there. Thank you, Joanna. I mean, better.

[B]

That was great. Punchy.

[A]

Punchy, yeah. Thank you for sending those. Please do send in your video clips if you've got something that you want to advertise. Please make sure that you know, as a lot of people, in fact probably the majority of people are still, still listening to this and not seeing the pictures. We would like to have the good video, but please make sure the audio is tip top as well. That's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom, the redactor, even though he's not here because he's on holiday, like forever.

[B]

Forever. Forever.

[A]

Simon, Paul, and if you're not following the pod already, please do so wherever you get your podcasts, come and join us on Patreon, of course, which is a really cool thing. Mark, what is your.

[B]

I'm not even gonna ask the question.

[A]

Go on, everybody.

[B]

Go and see Rose of Nevada. Let's make this a breakout hit.

[A]

We'll be back next week. Steve Coogan will be our guest talking about his new TV series. I will bestow a year's Ultra membership to our correspondent of the week, who I'm gonna say is Tabitha from Brighton, who's included us in her birth plan. She was the one who sent in the views about the drama, but I think if we're part of her birth plan, the, you know, the least we can do is to give her a year's Ultra membership. So, Tabitha, thank you very much indeed. You can get in touch correspondencecovermo.com Another take has added alongside this one.

[B]

We'll talk to you shortly.