Is playtime finally over for TOY STORY?

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Is playtime finally over for TOY STORY?
Date: June 18, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo
Notable Guest: Tim Spall
Main Theme: Critical film reviews, TV discussion, movie nostalgia, and an assessment of whether Toy Story 5 marks the end of the franchise’s magic.

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Episode Overview

In this lively, reflective episode, Mark and Simon navigate a packed agenda, traversing cinema nostalgia, generational perspectives on beloved franchises, contemporary indie releases, and the debut of Toy Story 5. Special guest Tim Spall joins to discuss “Virginia Woolf’s Night and Day.” The hosts’ signature banter shines through, mixing cinematic insights with enjoyable digressions, listener correspondence, and some of their trademark in-jokes.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Studio Catch-Up & Banter

• The hosts open by discussing their podcast’s evolving structure, with references to the “take two” subscriber show and an upcoming career retrospective for Simon at a Belfast university.
  • Memorable quote:
    • “40 years of national radio.” – Mark Kermode (04:04)
    • “40 glorious years. I’m just amazed anyone noticed.” – Simon Mayo (03:50)
• The perils of podcasting in a hot studio vs. running noisy air conditioning are humorously explored, a slice of their “real life” podcast dynamic (05:27).

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2. Feature Review: Effie a Blainau

[09:20–16:40]

• Mark reviews the new Welsh-language film by Mark Evans, based on “Iphigenia in Splot,” itself rooted in Greek tragedy.
• Key Points:
  • The setting is a struggling Welsh community, following Effie—a resilient, tough character grappling with deprivation, family tension, and the aftermath of COVID.
  • The film navigates social realism à la Ken Loach, with lyrical, poetic elements reminiscent of Lynne Ramsey or Clio Barnard.
  • Praised for its raw emotion, tough subject matter (poverty, overstretched NHS, unplanned pregnancy), and a powerhouse performance by Lisa Gwenllian.
  • Quote:
    • “There is so much life in it... this sense of this character who is absolutely her own person and who refuses to be downtrodden.” – Mark Kermode (16:11)
• Mark singles out Sean Trevor’s electronic score and Erwin Jones’s evocative cinematography.

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3. Box Office Top 10, Listener Mail, & Disclosure Day

[18:05–26:36]

• While breezing through the UK Top 10 (with side notes on movies including “The Sheep Detectives” and “Obsession”), the hosts focus on reactions to Steven Spielberg’s new film, Disclosure Day.
• Listener Reactions:
  • Some find it derivative and disappointing:
    • “It feels less directed than urgently stapled together. Structurally, it is essentially a screensaver of jeopardy.” – Olaf Ringelband (21:13)
  • Others (especially parents) highlight profound emotional effects on children:
    • “My 9-year-old son... burst into tears as he was so desperate to know what they were going to say.” – Flick in Leicester (23:13)
  • Mark reflects:
    • “The thing about rocking backwards and forwards on his chair... that’s exactly what you do. You literally can’t sit still in your chair.” (26:04)

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4. Interview: Tim Spall on Virginia Woolf’s Night and Day

[29:07–44:16]

• Setting: Tim joins from his boat.
• On the Film:
  • A fresh, witty adaptation set in Edwardian England, focusing on a young woman’s struggle for autonomy in a patriarchal world.
  • Spall plays Mr. Hilbury, the protagonist’s father—“not just a two-dimensional Edwardian patriarch” but a nuanced, compassionate figure puzzled by changing times.
  • The creative environment: Director Tina Gharavi encouraged improvisation, fostering “oddly experimental” scenes, making the Edwardian dialogue “frees it up a bit.” (34:00)
• On social change:
  • “Seems like stating the obvious... only a hundred years ago that women were just not conceived as being able to look after themselves.” – Tim Spall (36:27)
  • Both Spall and hosts reflect on how the film balances its light tone and sharp social commentary.
• On the film’s success:
  • “Not only is this movie been made, but it’s actually got a cinema release... it’s getting tougher for indie movies to get released.” – Tim Spall (41:58)
  • Spall hints at current and future projects but can’t reveal details due to NDAs.

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5. Review: Virginia Woolf’s Night and Day (Host Analysis)

[44:44–51:44]

• Mark summarizes the film’s tone: “Sparky and, despite the title, very loose adaptation of Virginia Woolf’s novel.”
• Notes director Tina Gharavi’s “wit, confidence, and deceptively light touch.”
• Praises ensemble cast: Hayley Bennett’s “face able to telegraph when somebody’s smiling but it looks, you know, that they’re screaming on the inside.”
• Simon notes how the story feels so fresh, it “felt like it was a true story.”

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6. Feature Review: Toy Story 5

[59:15–72:28]

• Background:
  • Mark provides a detailed context of the series, noting this is the first without original creator John Lasseter.
  • Randy Newman returns for the score, Taylor Swift also contributes music.
• Plot Overview:
  • Woody has left; Jessie (now leader) and Buzz handle the toy room, but Bonnie is obsessed with her new tablet “Lily Pad.” The classic toys struggle against new tech and a digital playmate.
• Mark’s Assessment:
  • Disappointment:
    • “This, for me, is the first proper Toy Story disappointment... for the first time ever, I was like, come on, come on.” (69:31)
  • Problems Identified:
    • Plot is convoluted yet simplistic; lacks the emotional clarity and innovation of the original trilogy.
    • The “magic” (e.g., the original “that’s not flying, that’s falling with style”) is lost—here, “they just fly.”
    • The movie feels overstuffed and emotionally manipulative; loses the heart and focus that defined earlier entries.
    • Even scenes meant to tug the heartstrings feel forced.
  • Quote:
    • “It felt very much to me like a film from the director of John Carter of Mars. Weirdly aimless and bloated.” (68:32)
    • “I was the old guy from ‘Up’ going ‘Bah!’ and slamming the door in the film’s face.” (69:34)
  • On relevancy:
    • The plot touches (clumsily) on cyberbullying and social media for children, which aligns incidentally with current political debates.
  • Simon wonders if the film will be part of discussions about online safety for kids but Mark says:
    • “I don’t think it adds anything to any debates at all. I think it is literally a product... and I hate that I’m saying that about a Toy Story film.” (71:51)
  • The hosts invite listeners to offer their reactions, especially those seeing it with young children.

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7. Listener Correspondence & Community

[73:42–74:36], throughout

• Varied anecdotes about film ratings (PG, 12A) and watching movies as kids.
• A listener corrects the hosts on the Asian edition of their book—“definitely not Korean... but Taiwanese.”
• Plug for “Film at the Hearth” screening ALIENS with special xenomorph exhibits.
• The usual call for emails, voice notes, and listener contributions.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Film Ratings and Growing Up:
  • “What you would do... if you want to go see Planet of the Apes and it’s an A [certificate]... you’d hang around outside until some random adult... would you take us in?” – Mark Kermode (56:18)
• On Toy Story 5’s Loss of Magic:
  • “If you throw away the magic... if you throw away the thing which made the first one [special]... I’m sorry. I’ve just checked out now.” – Mark Kermode (65:36)
• Simon’s parting jab:
  • “It’s the difficult fifth album.” (73:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Effie a Blainau review: 09:20–16:40
• Listener correspondence & Disclosure Day: 18:05–26:36
• Tim Spall interview: 29:07–44:16
• Virginia Woolf’s Night and Day (host reviews): 44:44–51:44
• Toy Story 5 review: 59:15–72:28
• Box office rundown: 18:05 onward
• Various listener letters and anecdotes: Throughout

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Conclusion & Film of the Week

The episode’s heartbeat: thoughtful, sometimes elegiac reflection on change—within cinema, franchises, and society at large. The hosts remain wryly self-aware, balancing nostalgia with willingness to critique.

Mark’s Film of the Week:

• “Effie, A Blaenau or Effie” (75:18)

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For Next Time

• Next week promises a review of Supergirl and more physical/streaming recommendations.
• Two listeners are awarded a year’s Ultra Membership for stellar correspondence (Olaf Ringelband and Serge Zehnder).

Contact:
[e-mail] for comments, observations, movie-related stories, or to join the community in “Take Ultra.”

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get

[Mark Kermode]

an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in questions.

[Mark Kermode]

You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you.

[Mark Kermode]

Hello? Hello, Simon Mayo, it's Mark Kermode.

[Simon Mayo]

Password? Sorry, State the password.

[Mark Kermode]

What password?

[Simon Mayo]

Exactly what an imposter would say.

[Mark Kermode]

Simon, it's Mark. We host a podcast together.

[Simon Mayo]

Public information.

[Mark Kermode]

No. You've been watching Mission Impossible again, haven't you?

[Simon Mayo]

Maybe.

[Mark Kermode]

Right? Well, you are not Ethan Hunt. And most people don't need a team of agents to protect their information. They just need NordVPN, the all in one digital security solution which combines VPN and multiple other CyberSecurity features into one subscription.

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You'll get an extra four months free on the two year plan. And it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description. The 2026 FIFA World cup meal at

[Mark Kermode]

McDonald's is underway with one of nine legendary cubs in the lineup. Christian Pulisic, David Beckham, Lamine Yamal, Ronaldinho, Thierry Henry, Son, Hyung Min, Alfonso Davies, Santi Jimenez. And between the posts, it's grimace. Get one of nine collectible cups with a FIFA World cup meal. Participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last.

[Simon Mayo]

All rights reserved.

[Mark Kermode]

20:26 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 20:26

[Simon Mayo]

well, here we are in the same place, but I'm not quite sure. I can never remember. Why are we here together?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, we're here together because I'm going to Belfast tomorrow. And so I'm here this morning, which is Tuesday, because the screening which is on, I've already seen. And I said, well, look, since we're going to be in the same. You know, we had this, why don't we just. Why don't we get together in that there Theobald's road studio and fight with the Internet and take. Air conditioning.

[Simon Mayo]

Take two. So what's happening for take two?

[Mark Kermode]

Take two. I'm recording from a hotel. So today we're together recording take one in the same place. And then tomorrow I'll be coming to you live from Heathrow Airport.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm going to Belfast in October for a career retrospective. How about that?

[Mark Kermode]

Of who?

[Simon Mayo]

Me. What? They've invited me.

[Mark Kermode]

What?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, how about that? 40 years of broadcasting. Who? Very important people.

[Mark Kermode]

Which very important people? Some people down a pub.

[Simon Mayo]

No, it's a. It's a proper interview and tickets and all that kind of jazz. Sorry, I don't know all the details just yet.

[Mark Kermode]

I don't want all the details. I want some of the details.

[Simon Mayo]

In October, I can't remember. Important people. No, but at the university, I think.

[Mark Kermode]

Queens, probably. Right. So Queens.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm just teasing it, really. This is. I think this is called a soft launch.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so Queens, Belfast have invited you.

[Simon Mayo]

I don't want to be specific. I have been invited.

[Mark Kermode]

Some academic institution has invited you to

[Simon Mayo]

go to Belfast to be interviewed.

[Mark Kermode]

To be interviewed. To talk about 40 years.

[Simon Mayo]

40 glorious years. I'm just amazed anyone noticed. But they did, so I'm grateful.

[Mark Kermode]

Did you notice?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, of course. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, you knew that this was the

[Simon Mayo]

40th anniversary of your just being on national radio. Because I joined Radio 1 in 86, so.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so 40 years of national radio.

[Tim Spall]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

30 years of hurt.

[Simon Mayo]

Jules Rimet. Still dreaming.

[Mark Kermode]

I never knew. I didn't know what Jules Rimet was. I always thought it was Jules we made. And I thought. What? That doesn't even make any sense. No. I don't know.

[Simon Mayo]

You were listening to a football song.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, it was on the radio all the time.

[Simon Mayo]

True.

[Mark Kermode]

It was.

[Simon Mayo]

You know, and he's probably on quite a lot.

[Mark Kermode]

And it was that David Badil, who I was in a band with when I was a kid.

[Simon Mayo]

I said, I'm in the day.

[Mark Kermode]

I don't know what that's about. So 40 years.

[Simon Mayo]

40 years have hurt. That's the official title. This is a soft launch. I'm not quite sure.

[Mark Kermode]

And you're gonna be interviewed. Yeah, I'm gonna come over.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Because my friends Janice and Paul are in Belfast and are godless children. So that would be great.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Well, I could probably get you a discount anyway. More details.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, no, we're gonna do this every single week between now and the 40th anniversary. Retrospectively.

[Simon Mayo]

Make it a sellout.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. I don't even know how long I've been working as a film. Well, I mean, the first film review I ever wrote was in 1986 maybe.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, you're gonna say it's 40 years for you too? It's 40 years for me.

[Mark Kermode]

Then I should come. Yeah. Excuse me. I should come.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, I apologize to the organizers for being a bit feeble in knowing the facts.

[Mark Kermode]

But anyway, if somebody was doing a 40 year tribute to me, I would know names, all their addresses. I would know exactly. I could look it up.

[Simon Mayo]

But we've only got a limited amount of time because the heat in this studio is preposterous. My argument is if the air conditioning is on, it just sounds like we're doing an outside broadcast.

[Mark Kermode]

Can we show them what it sounds like? Can you turn the air conditioning on so that the listening public can hear? Okay, so basically you've got two choices. You've got what we've got now, which is swelteringly hot, but quite quiet.

[Simon Mayo]

And it's only been off for five minutes.

[Mark Kermode]

This is Gully coming in. So this is the air conditioning. All right.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Well, that sounded like nothing.

[Mark Kermode]

Wait,

[Simon Mayo]

it's hand cranked air conditioning.

[Mark Kermode]

Here we go.

[Simon Mayo]

No, I don't think that's a problem myself.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, listen to that. That's like. I'll tell you, I can add to it. I don't think that's gonna help.

[Simon Mayo]

We just think we're on a 747.

[Mark Kermode]

That is the maddest loud air conditioning ever.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, just leave it on for a bit. That's fine.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, that's it.

[Simon Mayo]

Right, quick, let's go through it.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine.

[Simon Mayo]

What are you doing?

[Mark Kermode]

A really mixed week. Toy Story 5 is the big release. Of course we'll be reviewing that Effie set. Now, Welsh language film either called Effie o Bly Na or Effie or Blei na, depending on. Cause I had a conversation with the director and the star and I said, what is the correct pronunciation? Because you're both saying it differently. They said it's because we're from different parts of Wales. We'll be getting to that.

[Simon Mayo]

Is it, could it be called Effia Jeffy.

[Mark Kermode]

Effia. Jeffy, that's right. Yes. That's our version. And Virginia Woolf's Night and Day with our very, very special guest, who is Tim Spall. Fantastic. Tim Spall.

[Simon Mayo]

So we're gonna be speaking to Tim. And bonus review in take two.

[Mark Kermode]

Two bonus reviews. Two bonus reviews. We have Nino and Lesbian Space Princess. So that's all to look forward to in take two.

[Simon Mayo]

Is that a comedy or is. What is that?

[Mark Kermode]

Take a wild guess.

[Simon Mayo]

A spoof?

[Mark Kermode]

No. Well, you know, a satirical animation. Oh, okay. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

You can get take two with no more of our brilliant ads by heading to our Patreon page. We are running a 90% off.

[Mark Kermode]

90% off. Fire somebody.

[Simon Mayo]

Do we have. I think we probably do have to, with that amount of. Anyway, it's a promotion, and it's running until the end of the month. Just use the code June90, not Joe90. That doesn't work. It's June90, his ignored sister at the checkout.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, that's very good.

[Simon Mayo]

So, before we proceed with Effie and Jeffie, an email from Alex Crockford in Cambridge. Okay. Dear Dr. Bunsen, Honeydew and Beaker, which one are you? I think I'll be. I'm happy to be Beaker.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, you have to go.

[Simon Mayo]

Having greatly enjoyed the recent discussions of Muppet remakes of classic films with one human actor retained being a contrarian, I randomly started playing the mental exercise of turning the game on its head and thinking about remakes that would work well by retaining all of the original cast. Still playing it completely straight, but adding one Muppet.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, very good.

[Simon Mayo]

I think this is even a. I think this is a better game. Three that I thought would work particularly well. Number one, a Muppet on the Orient Express. I preferred the Lume version, but the Branagh cast would be easier to reunite. Kermit would play Poirot, and they could even keep all the bits where the snooty suspects refer to him as that peculiar little frog.

[Mark Kermode]

So well done. Very good.

[Simon Mayo]

Also, Les Miserables with Sam the Eagle as Javert. Now, that's a very good idea.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I would definitely.

[Simon Mayo]

Very, very good. And the king of comedy with Fozzie Bear stepping into De Niro's shoes.

[Mark Kermode]

What do you think? Well, I mean, I think Fozzie Bear was. Is a very, very good ch. Cause as we know, that's my favorite of those. I absolutely love that movie, and it gives me an opportunity to say, simon, do your Fozzie Bear.

[Simon Mayo]

Higher, higher, higher.

[Mark Kermode]

Douglas Heard, Foreign Secretary. Anyway, it's brilliant.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm gonna have to have a drink now, but Les misused Sam the Eagle as Javert. Titwillow, titwillow, titwillow. Right. Effing and Geoffen, here we go.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So quick, before we get too hot. Okay, so, Effie, a blind. Either a blind na or a blun Eye. Okay. Depending.

[Tim Spall]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Or. I think it's Even more specific than that. So this is the new film from Mark Evans, now Mark Evans's director, whose work I love. Feature credits include Resurrection man, which was this kind of vampiric Northern Irish movie. The inverted commas, nasty little horror movie, My Little Lie, which I loved. The psychological thriller Trauma, with a brilliant performance by Colin Firth, which Colin Firth always says he thinks it's one of his best movies. And Patagonia, which is kind of Welsh Argentine drama. And then most recently he did the early life, Richard Burton thing, Mr. Turtle, for which we interviewed. Did we interview Toby?

[Simon Mayo]

We did Toby Jones, Toby Noby, fine.

[Mark Kermode]

So I think he's one of the UK's most versatile directors. He's one of my personal favorites. So this new film is based on a Gary Owen one woman play, Iphigenia in Splot, which itself is based very loosely on the Greek myth of Iphigenia. Do you know the Greek myth of Iphigenia?

[Simon Mayo]

If you remind me of the salient points.

[Mark Kermode]

Agamemnon's daughter becomes the sacrificial deer in order to speed the Greek fleet. So it's a thing about somebody being sacrificed for. And in this, in the play, the whole thing is that this character says, I think actually in the play addresses the audience, says, I took a bullet for you. So the original source was English language monodrama played out on a single stage. The film has an ensemble cast, moves the action from Cardiff to what Mark Evans says up north, where the Welsh language is, he says, in the blood in the slate. And it now splays from houses to clubs to hospitals to ambulances, to wild and windy hills and moorlands. So it expands the canvas of the source, but it still absolutely revolves around a single powerhouse performance, in this case, Lysa Gwendlian. So she plays Effie, Effie of Blenigh, or Blaena, which is a hardscrabble Welsh speaking community in which, according to a BBC report, has, quote, the highest proportion of highly deprived neighbourhoods in all of Wales. So she's a tough kid, she's been through Covid, is now determined to grab life by the horns, wants to enjoy herself, drinking, partying, getting wasted, all to the disapproval of her grandmother. She has a best friend, Lianne, and then a kind of drag along, sort of on off boyfriend called Kev. Kev clearly loves her, but it's not reciprocal. And she is, again, according to Mark Evans, who I interviewed about the film, she's connected to her phone, but essentially isolated. One night out, she goes to a club and she meets Lee, played by Tom Reese Harris, who is this handsome, charismatic guy who doesn't want to dance, but he's happy to talk. And I'm gonna play you a clip. It's a Welsh language clip and I know some of our listeners may speak Welsh, but many won't, so here's what you're gonna hear. He says, the way you're staring at me is a bit. And she says, yeah, it's just that you are the ugliest bloke I've ever seen and it's incredibly brave of you to come out in public. He says, thanks for that. And she says, look, in two minutes, a bloke called Kev is gonna come up those stairs and he won't be happy that I'm talking to you. And he says, worried what he'll do to me? She says, no, I'm worried what you'll do to him. Here's a clip.

[Simon Mayo]

My farts in Starry are now bright and intense. I have to go back.

[Mark Kermode]

Just. While that clip was playing, Simon said to me, what did you call the Richard Burton film? I said, Mr. Burton? You went, no, you didn't. I called it Mr. Turner, which because it's because we've got Tim Spall coming up later in the show and of course, that's Mr. Turner. Wow, that was a nice save. Well done. Yes. The Burton film is, surprisingly enough, called Mr. Burton.

[Tim Spall]

That's the one.

[Mark Kermode]

And the Turner film, which is about Turner, is called Mr. Turner. Anyway, so they meet in this club, they leave together. He's got some secrets in his past that she's more than able to deal with. And they have what appears to be a blissful encounter. But then after that he withdraws and the wheels start to come off her life. Now, the film is really interesting. It's got one foot in that kind of grand social realist tradition of Ken Loach. And you could, you could compare it to things like Kathy Come Home or Poor Cow, but it's also got this lyrical poetry which is much more in keeping with the work of Lynne Ramsey or Clara Barnard, who, you know, I. I can always refer to as, I think, you know, two of my favorite directors. There's stuff about unplanned pregnancy, there's stuff about how overstretched the NHS is, about the rigors of poverty, the horrible first person consequences of how overstretched the NHS is and hospital overcrowdings. All that stuff is real feet on the ground. But there is also this kind of dreamy, almost hyper realist sensibility which is often accentuated by the music. When Mark Evans did Resurrection man, he did one of the greatest needle drops in modern film history. When he used Tiger Feet by Mud over a scene of kind of really tough violence. And it's in the same way as kind of Stuck in the Middle with youh in Reservoir Dogs. It is brilliantly contrapuntal. And I think Mark Evans has got a fantastic ear for music. In the case of this, he worked with Sean Trevor, who composed this electronic score. Apparently what he did was he took a bunch of records and said, these are the kind of records I think they'd be listening to. And then his composer said, okay, fine, but I can work something around that. And comes up with this really, really integral score, which I think really lifts the film. As the drama goes on, the music kind of gives way to the sound of the real world around it, to the sound of what Mark Evans would say, the sound of the slate of the. And it's. The whole film is shot by Erwin Jones, who finds, I think, both beauty and hardship in the environment. But at the center of it, you have this amazing performance by Lisa Gwenlian, who. I keep saying Gwenlian because it's double. And she's tried to say to me how I said, is it Gwenly? And she's going Gwen Llian. And obviously my Welsh accent is terrible. It's funny, it's bolshy, it's stroppy, it's heartbreaking, it's gut wrenching. You know, it walks the full length of the counter. And it's really, really power. And some of the drama is really upsetting. I mean, some of it is really profoundly upsetting. Some of it is, you know, edge of your seat tension. Some of it's really funny, some of it's really warm. But the thing is that there is so much. There's so much life in it that even when it's dealing with really difficult, really dark subject matter, what you get from it is this kind of. This defiance, this sense of this character who is absolutely her own person and who refuses to be downtrodden. I mean, I. You know, tougher's tough as flint. Or, you know, to quote what Mark. Mark was saying, you know, tough as slate. I think the movie's really powerful. I think it's. It has a central character who is still there, still defiant, still unbowed, despite everything that happens. Like I said, it is a tough watch. There are things in it that are very, very tough. But I think it's really good and I think her performance is. Is terrific. And I think Mark Evans is one of our most versatile filmmakers.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Still to come after Hydration break, Toy Story 5, Virginia Wolf's Night and Day. And our special guest who's in that

[Mark Kermode]

film, that'll be Tim Spall, who's also in Mr. Turner. But not Mr. Burton.

[Simon Mayo]

Correct. Hey, Mark, I was, I was online shopping the other day and he got me thinking. You know how in Jurassic park they bring dinosaurs back to life using cutting edge technology?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

That's how I imagine people build online stores.

[Mark Kermode]

What, by using dinosaur DNA?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, not specifically, but it certainly feels that complicated and it's a right pain to remember all of your details.

[Mark Kermode]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

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this episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses. Setup required. Compatibility and availability. Various 18 plus. Okay, box office top 10 this week at 10. Well, basically there's only one film that people want to talk about, so.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, we'll zip it. So we zip through the other ones.

[Simon Mayo]

Number 10, the Amazing Digital Circus. The last act.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, which I know I said I was gonna catch up with it, but I haven't yet. And I will do whenever you say

[Simon Mayo]

that, I know that you're.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, but here's why. Because it's actually not yet on streaming and when we're recording this, it's not yet. But as soon as it comes to streaming, I will watch it. But it hasn't yet happened.

[Simon Mayo]

The Sheep Detectives is at number nine.

[Mark Kermode]

The talk was terrific. Really enjoyed it. Really strange, really odd. And they were. Oh, no, no. So they were suggesting replacing Russell Crowe with Sam the Eagle, weren't they. Sorry, not as Javert. Not. Not a huge amount.

[Simon Mayo]

Devil wears Prada 2 is at number 8. More of the same Star, the Mandalorian and Grogu is at number seven.

[Mark Kermode]

If you're a fan, you might enjoy some of it, but it is a bunch of TV episodes strung together. Michael's at six, Not a fan, but it's taken. It's taken. How much? I mean, just staggering amounts of money. It is now. I think I saw a news report that said it is now the most successful rock biopic or music biopic of evs.

[Simon Mayo]

Masters of the Universe is at number five.

[Mark Kermode]

Kind of big, you know, big, colourful, fun, absolute nonsense, but quite enjoyable. Backrooms is at 4, which I like very, very much. New wave of young directors changing the face of modern popular cinema.

[Simon Mayo]

Scary Movie is at number three.

[Mark Kermode]

Not the young popular. Yeah, more of the same.

[Simon Mayo]

Unfortunately, Obsession is at number two, which

[Mark Kermode]

I think is terrific. And I love the fact that Obsession is doing as well as it is and is continuing to do that well, because. Because after five weeks, it's the word of mouth that's making people go to see it.

[Simon Mayo]

So a bunch of emails about the number one movie, which is, of course, disclosure day. And it's not just number one, it is, of course, very number one and number one in America. So we'll just. We'll just get through some of these and obviously, much like the critical comments, some love it and some don't. Okay, so there you go.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

ET so this is Chris Keim, first of all, in Hong Kong, ET Meets Close Encounters to the Third Kind, meets Signs, meets Raiders of the Lost Ark, meets Duel, meets. Meets War Games, meets the Martian, meets Network, meets Catch Me if youf can meets Age of Ultron Farmhouse. Seen anyone? Meets Roswell. Documentaries. So Mark is right. We've all been there before. Many times. Yours devotedly, Chris Time.

[Mark Kermode]

Good?

[Simon Mayo]

Somewhat. Now, this guy's name is Olaf Ringelband and he's in Hamburg. He's gotta be a prog rocker, hasn't he? I've instantly got a picture of Olaf Ringelband. PhD Psychology.

[Mark Kermode]

Anyway, did he do some solo work with Johnny Danby?

[Simon Mayo]

Almost certainly. I had long clung to the belief that Steven Spielberg simply couldn't make a bad film. Even his lesser works tend to be expertly crafted, briskly entertaining and touched by that old cinematic magic. So imagine my disappointment on watching Disclosure Day, a film so clumsily written and mechanically assembled that it feels less directed than urgently stapled together. Structurally, it is essentially a screensaver of jeopardy. Run away, fight the baddies, Run away again, fight the baddies again. Repeat. And until the credits mercifully intervene, there is movement certainly, but very little momentum. Noise, but not much cinema. And then there's a long section about big reveal, but we won't be talking

[Mark Kermode]

about that because what with it being

[Simon Mayo]

the reveal and everything.

[Mark Kermode]

Also, it's not that big of a

[Simon Mayo]

reveal, but thanks to Olaf Ringelband, our favorite correspondent of the Please send us

[Mark Kermode]

some early tapes of your prog work.

[Simon Mayo]

Barney says When Steven Spielberg was a guest on the show Inside the Actor's Studio, the host James Lipton asked the director a question about Close Encounters, which went your father was a computer scientist. This is a very famous question and it's on YouTube. Your father was a computer scientist, your mother was a musician, your mother was

[Mark Kermode]

a hamster, and your father smiltevelled the bass. Not quite.

[Simon Mayo]

When the spaceship lands, how do they communicate? They make music on their computers and are able to communicate with each other. This dissection of Spielberg's storytelling remains as true as ever, as after nearly 50 years on from Close Encounters, it appears he hasn't moved on from these themes, as disclosure day treads extremely similar ground. Your enjoyment of the film also depends on how high your tolerance is for this or Shuck's optimism. It's an admirable outlook in the times we live in, but could have been dialed down a considerable amount at times. I I'm reminded of whenever Peter Pan is performed on stage and the audience is told to repeat I do believe in fairies. As a lifelong fan, I've managed to watch every single one of his movies and as much as it pains me to say it, this might be the most disappointing Move over always. There's a new kid in town at the bottom, says Barnes.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, okay, there's these have all been quite negative so far.

[Simon Mayo]

Flick in Leicester okay. I was worried that the viewing time would be too much for my 9 year old son, but I need not have feared from the opening sequence he was hooked in the final third I had to give him my hand to squeeze as he was engaged in some very non code compliant rocking in his seat in a bid to contain his excitement as the final credits rolled. He burst into tears as he was so desperate to know what they were going to say getting his review in the car. He said it's the best film I have ever seen. The highlight for me was watching my son have his first cinematic Spielberg experience and seeing his awestruck expression throughout any film that shows a nine year old, or anyone for that matter, that kindness and compassion are the way forward is surely doing something right. Teggety tonk down with attacking others for being different. Very good, ketty says. I have to say I loved the film. It had a profound effect on me emotionally, one that I wasn't expecting. Is it the best film ever made? No. The performances are solid, but CGI animals are shonky and I don't think that's on purpose, but I thought the film's message about the need for empathy was so simple and yet so well delivered, serge Zehnder says. Longtime listener, first time contactor thank you for the wonderful review of Steven Spielberg's Disclosure Day, which was of course on last week's show, along with a conversation with Emily Blunt and Colman Domingo. Having seen the film, having been irked by its faults, and having wept at the end, I felt very much at home. In one of the longest reviews you've done, a bit like Spielberg's film, your thoughts on Disclosure Day showed that there can be things that are objectively wrong and need to be pointed out. But as is so often the case in movies and in life, there is also an emotional truth that has to be acknowledged and which may supersede any intellectual qualms. In short, two things can be true at the same time. It was therefore a great pleasure to hear Mark express his gratitude for working with Simon after all these years. If Spielberg's film, with all its faults, inspires moments like this in the real world, that's quite something. Therefore, up with empathy and down with cruelty. And all the best to both of you from sergeant so he's a good lad, isn't he? Before Mark comments, there's more on this in Overflow Car Park 2. Overflow Car park, which is in Take 2.

[Mark Kermode]

Subscribe on Patreon Overflow Car Park 2

[Simon Mayo]

the Love Bug yeah, if there's over Overflow Car park two, we're gonna have to put that in take three.

[Mark Kermode]

Let's just say I have often expressed my admiration for working with you. Yes, I do it a lot more than you do about me.

[Simon Mayo]

That isn't true. That is definitely not true. But anyway, so I love the fact that you take your nine year old.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, no, I know. That's brilliant.

[Simon Mayo]

Who goes back catalog, Walk back catalog a Spielberg film, first one he's seen. Absolutely blows him away. And as the later emails said, is it perfect? No, it isn't. I mean, everyone knows what we think anyway, but lots of things wrong with it.

[Mark Kermode]

However, My favorite line in that in the penultimate email was the thing about rocking backwards and forwards on his chair because he was so excited about what they were gonna say next. And that's the kind of thing like if you wrote that in a book, if you wrote somebody who's you go, yeah, that's exactly it. It's the kind of observation that that's exactly what you do. You're so excited about what they're gonna say next. You literally can't sit still in your chair.

[Simon Mayo]

It's a physical manifestation of excitement without being able to verbalize it. Cause you can't. Cause you're in a cinema. So rocking backwards and forwards whilst obviously against the code it might be annoying is perfectly understandable.

[Mark Kermode]

I actually think it's at that moment, I think it's completely forgivable. Cause you're not talking, you're not doing anything out loud, but you're so excited. It's like we were saying, like if you're in a, if you're in a movie that's really funny or in a movie that's really scary, is it code violation to laugh or scream? No, of course it isn't. If it's a, it's a genuine invol. I love that image. I love that image of a nine year old being so excited by what they're going to say next.

[Simon Mayo]

[e-mail] when you've seen it, let us know. Coming up after our latest hydration break, it's going to be Tim sp.

[Tim Spall]

Fourth of July savings are happening now

[Simon Mayo]

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[Tim Spall]

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[Simon Mayo]

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[Tim Spall]

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[Simon Mayo]

completes laundry in about 90 minutes.

[Tim Spall]

Shop Top brand appliances now at the Home Home Depot offer Val June 17th July at the US only Sea Store online for details.

[Simon Mayo]

We gather here tonight to bring women

[Tim Spall]

back to their rightful place.

[Simon Mayo]

The Testaments a new Hulu original series from the executive producers of the Handmaid's Tale.

[Mark Kermode]

It's easier to accept a story than believe that the people around you are monsters.

[Simon Mayo]

The battle isn't over. There comes a time when you have to take action, when you have to choose your own destiny. Watch the new Hulu original series the Testaments streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. So our guest this week is Tim Spall, which is a very lovely thing which we recorded tomorrow, so excuse the wrinkle in the show's space time continuum.

[Mark Kermode]

So just to explain the timey wimey thing, you're going to hear the interview now, but we won't have heard until we do it tomorrow.

[Simon Mayo]

That's right, yes. Chris Nolan would love this.

[Mark Kermode]

He would absolutely love it. I think he's directing it.

[Simon Mayo]

So what is there to say about Tim? Our fit is npat. Life is sweet. Secrets and Lies, Topsy Turvy, all or Nothing. King Speech, Damned United, Sweeney Todd, Enchanted, the Last Samurai, Blanding, summer of rockets, sixth commandment and so on. Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Did you say Mr. Turner?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, you'd mentioned it a couple of times before.

[Mark Kermode]

You mentioned Mr. Burton as well.

[Simon Mayo]

Mr. Burton and Mr. Turner. Okay, so we're gonna talk with Tim. He' new movie called Night and Day. And you'll hear from him after this.

[Mark Kermode]

I want to apply to Cambridge.

[Tim Spall]

Absolutely out of the question. You'll marry and you'll be a wife.

[Simon Mayo]

Willie, you're ridiculous.

[Mark Kermode]

I have other plans.

[Simon Mayo]

What are you doing up here? I'm not trusting strangers on rooftops.

[Tim Spall]

A woman who knows what she wants.

[Simon Mayo]

I need lab.

[Mark Kermode]

It's easy study here.

[Simon Mayo]

Nobody wants to warmth inside. Stop wasting our time. Don't be stuck in the last century, you know, just give me a chance. And that's a clip from Virginia Woolf's Night and Day. Tim Spall, welcome to the show.

[Tim Spall]

Hello. How are you both?

[Simon Mayo]

We're doing fine. You look as though you're in the back of a camper van or something thing.

[Tim Spall]

No, a boat.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, right. Okay.

[Tim Spall]

I'm on my boat.

[Simon Mayo]

Are you heading anywhere exotic?

[Tim Spall]

Well, no, I'm going nowhere at the moment. I'm up on a river bank in a. In a river not too far from you.

[Simon Mayo]

Is that the same boat that you did a TV show?

[Tim Spall]

It is, yeah. Same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not just for tell. It's a pleasure as well.

[Simon Mayo]

So Virginia Wolf's Nightingale. That is the full. That's the proper title of this new movie stars Hayley Bennett in as the main star. You're Mr. Hilbury, your Hayley Bennett's father. Just introduce us to your character and introduce us to the story, Tim.

[Tim Spall]

Well, yeah. Night and Day is about. Fundamentally about the young woman, Edwardian woman who would be regarded in them terms as a spinster, worryingly unmarried and unproposed to at this point in her late 20s, early 30s. Is that she lives with her parents in A well to do house. Her father's a publisher, her mother is a. The daughter of a very famous poet and her mother is writing a book about her father. She's taken about 18 years and she's only done about two chat now. Hayley Bennett, Jennifer Saunders. Wonderful. Jennifer Plains. Mom and I play dad and Haley Bennett plays this Edwardian girl who actually doesn't fit the bill of potential wifehood from an Edwardian point of view. She wants to go to university. She's an astronomer and quite a talented one and she's trying to manipulate the situation for them to understand that she doesn't want to marry this young man. She's known her. Her life as family friend. And so it's a battle of wills really from the beginning and, and it's an investigation of this world, this malure, this Edwardian world where it's about to undergo a paradigm shift or a very slow paradigm shift if there can be one about women's attitudes about that wanted to do independence. And my character, Mr. Hilbry in a sense is representative of that immovable Edwardian patriarchy but he also, I think he also in a way is someone who's. The bolts of that kind of resolve are loosening a little bit. And this, and this investigates this woman, young woman's determination of, of. Of clouding her own furrow towards what she wants to do and actually get on a lot of meeting a lot of resistance and then it takes her into a whole milieu of this Edwardian world. She's introduced to Lily Allen's character who's a suffragette running this kind of alternative world of people she's introduced introduced to. She's. Then she goes and because her father doesn't allow her to study and in her house he's had enough of her. He's had enough of everything really. Her father, he's just. Because he's. He desperately wants to sort her out but he can't, you know. And then there's a whole gallery of other characters rather eccentric and she's another suitor comes along long who she takes an interesting dislike to but obviously she deeply underneath it all she's rather intrigued by him. So you know that whoever I'm telling you much of a great story here but it's, it's, it's actually. But also the flavor of it I think is a very different. Justin what. What else written it has taken the book and kind of opened it up into this world as a whole different atmosphere. It doesn't. It's not stuffy we also were encouraged to improvise quite a lot in it and to loosen it up. The script was very good, but Tina was very open to seeing what happened on set. So it was oddly experimental and oddly nerve wracking at times because you thought, how on earth am I supposed to improvise in audience language? You know, so. But there is an element, it frees it up a little bit.

[Mark Kermode]

Can you tell us something about working with Tina Gharavi? Because she made I Am Nazarene, which I really, really liked. I saw her interviewed on stage at the bfi and she was. And witty and sharp and she really seemed to be completely in command of all the material. What was she like to work with the director? Because you've worked with, you know, some of the best directors in the business. What was she like to work with?

[Tim Spall]

Well, she was. She was very relaxed. Very relaxed and very open to seeing what happened. You know, we had the script, which we rehearsed, we would do and then she would just run the cameras so as you wouldn't call cut. You know, so we just carry on or we just start doing it again. So there was a. I mean, luckily we had a very interesting inventive cast. You know, Jennifer as Houston, making up on the spot. Jack Whitehall, absolutely charming. Jack, lovely. Ms. Philip, Ms. Phillips, she. So we were all there and, and just in this position where we had this script and these characters. And Hayley was very good. Now, a lot of it, the script is as scripted, but there are elements of this improvisation in the script. But it also loosened up the whole feel of it. It gave a lot of freedom. We weren't. I mean, the characters are buttoned down. Our Edwardian characters are somewhat buttoned down. But so it was always. It added to the strain of this shift going on. I think this feeling of something unsettling in this. This young woman represents this world that is no longer this generation of women. You know, when you think of. Seems like stating the obvious really, that, you know, it's only a hundred years ago that women were just not conceived as being able to look after themselves. You know, they had to be provided for by a husband or if they were provided, or that these, These are middle TAs and upper middle class women, of course, working class women have always had to get on with it and work, you know, but this whole milieu, this upper middle class world, it was just preposterous to think that you would clough your own farrow or a man, a father wouldn't have to take care or make sure that is what a daughter was taking care of.

[Simon Mayo]

It's just.

[Tim Spall]

I mean, now, you know, I've got daughters, I want to make sure they're okay, but then this. But they work, you know, they've got their own careers. Women just didn't have a career. So this is actually. We forget how unusual somebody wanting to go to Cambridge is and to resist the suitors that are put before her. So that's what this film is really about.

[Simon Mayo]

Tim, we. We have. We've been talking about you a lot on the podcast over the last few months. Most recently when you were Polonius in Rizamid's Ham, which is. Which is fantastic. Which you enjoyed very much.

[Tim Spall]

I haven't seen it yet. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[Simon Mayo]

All right. It's been and gone. But anyway, I'm sure you can find it somewhere. But I'm aware it's Father's Day coming up this weekend and you've been. So you're a father in this movie, Mr. Hillbury, you were in Kate Winslet's debut performance. So another. We're kind of ambivalent and confused dad Bernie in Goodbye June. The reason why I think you're Mr. Hillbury in this film is so enjoyable is that it would be very easy to play the kind of two dimensional Edwardian patriarch. But actually yours is a nuanced role. You are compassionate. You're a compassionate father. And it's just that you're a bit bewildered, I think, by the way the world is turning. Would that be fair?

[Tim Spall]

Absolutely. That's what I think. Fault. He is irascible and he. And he is at the end of his tether because I think. And he does. He loves his daughter, but he drives him mad. He loves his wife incredibly. But he's driven mad by. Because what I come to the conclusion was we always assume that these men in some way must enjoy the role as patriarch, enjoy their roles as being in charge. And I've been thinking, well, some of these guys, they were a victim of society as much as, okay, they were in charge. But a lot of these men didn't really want it. This terrible strain of having to make these decisions, constantly be the bad one, be the person who had to provide. And I think what Mr. Hilbury adds is the sense of. Of, okay, he's very much a man of his time, but I wonder deep down inside whether he really is slightly being cast in a role he doesn't necessarily want to fulfill. And there must have been many, many men who did that. And maybe sometimes Their strictness and their draconian attitudes were a product of being slightly out of their debt. You know, I mean, there's a lot of. I know, I. Lot of in big families, men had, they were young men, they weren't. All of a sudden they had seven kids. They must have thought, what the hell's happened? I mean, you know, they. So I'm not defending a whole generation of draconian restrictive men, but it does occur, did occur to me that as this man sees this world unfolding before him, he's intelligent, he's irasable, but he's intelligent. He doesn't want to lose his daughter. He allows the, the rivets of his constraints, the rivets of his, the structure of his. Up to this point, perception of society are loosening as everybody's rivets must have been. I mean, rather painfully the whole of society. I mean, particularly the. As we know, the active suffragettes were regarded as terrorists and they were beaten up and they were starved and they were force fed. I mean, so we forget these things because in a sense they've been bizarrely romanticized now because become biscuit tinned as it were, these characters to a certain degree. But we forget there's a real, real struggle and it was a real moment in time, very important moment in time where attitudes were changing. Unfortunately, a lot of, you know, active people would say, well, not enough. And we know, but this is 100 years ago and it was really pretty tough for a lot of women. So that's what this film explains in a very witty way, in a very unpo faced way, I think. And that, and a lot of that was Tina as well. And the cast you got together were, were up for kind of loosening up a bit. I think Hayley's performance is fantastic in it. I mean, social, vivacious and takes and carries it all without it being, you know, precious or self regarding. I think it's a wonderful, fresh before dormant.

[Mark Kermode]

It's worth saying that the film is called Night and Day and the thing that it does is it balances light and dark and I think that's the thing that makes it work.

[Tim Spall]

Yeah, I, I think that's right. And I mean I was intrigued by it because I didn't, you know, I've only ever read one Virginia Woolf and I hadn't associated it with a sort of comedy of manners world which when I, I read the book I thought this is interesting, odd. But the screenplay is very, very different. I actually only read 2/3 of the book because I thought the production was going to collapse. I thought I'll read the rest of it when I know they've got the, You know what the independent world is. The movie world is getting tougher and tougher and tougher trying to get a movie made. You know, this is the amazing thing that not only is this movie been made, but it's actually got a cinema release which I think is really, I'm really delighted with because it's getting tougher for indie movies to get released, you know.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. And he goes into and goes to cinemas with Disclosure Day and Toy Story 5 Tim. So that.

[Tim Spall]

Well that's. Let's hope. Well, I've. I've whiffed a little backlash to a certain amount of. Not that those two films aren't excellent pieces of work in their own field, but I think it's. I know there's been a slight backlash in the state with these smaller horror. Horror films, these much lower budgeted horror films. But that's a different thing of course because horror films often and science fiction film often become prevalent, I think. Do they not when the world, the collective subconscious is actually scared about things. When it feels insecure in. You know, the Cold war produced many, many science fiction movies, did it not? And horror movies and, and now I think what we're seeing now is these small movies which have got very fundamental unusual stories about terror but also normality being uplifted. Let's hope that they'll. In between this as this new backlash comes along. The slightly unusual period piece will be a part of this backlash.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Tim Spall]

Dream on somebody. I can hear somebody saying dream on.

[Simon Mayo]

So the movie is Virginia Wolf's Night and Dave.

[Mark Kermode]

Tim, what do you, what do you,

[Simon Mayo]

what do we see you in next? What do you move on to after this?

[Tim Spall]

Well, I'm working on. I'm not allowed to say what it is at the moment such as the modern world. I'm working on a Netflix six part thing. I was supposed to be stream eight an independent starting around now on an independent movie in the States. But unfortunately the dates have shifted. They shifted about six times now. But so. But I'm working on this other thing and then I'm doing. I've got other things that are cool looking up. So I'm. I'm in gainful employment.

[Simon Mayo]

You've told us. Absolutely. You've told us nothing.

[Tim Spall]

I'm being tolerated as I have been on a long term basis once again professionally.

[Simon Mayo]

Right. Well we look forward to every new project. Tim, we always appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you so much for Your time.

[Tim Spall]

Well, it's always a delight to talk to you guys. Thank you for having me on the show. Well, thank you. And I. I hope everybody enjoys the movie, as I hope you did. So let's. We will find and God bless you.

[Simon Mayo]

Always good to talk to Tim Spall, even though we haven't heard that just yet. I think we both found that a very enjoyable experience.

[Mark Kermode]

Very enjoyable experience. And it went terrifically well. And you were right in there with the line of questioning that I would have been in with. Well done.

[Simon Mayo]

And indeed your insightful comments from the hotel.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that was very good, wasn't it? They were great. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

So it's Virginia Wolves Night and Day. You know, some of what Mark thinks because of the way he phrased his questions, obviously, which I haven't done. But here it is in condensed form.

[Mark Kermode]

So I may well be repeating some of the things that Tim Spall hasn't yet said but will have said by the time you've listened this. But here we go. So Virginia Woolf's Night and Day, which is this sparky and despite the title, very loose adaptation of Virginia Woolf's novel. This is from British Iranian director Tina Gharavi, who made the brilliant BAFTA nominated I Am Nazarene. She also helmed Queen Cleopatra in the TV thing, which caused a stir because it had Adele James in the lead role. And we see accusations of this is pushing an Afrocentric agenda. To which she replied that you can be pretty certain of one thing is that Cleopatra looked more like Adele James than Elizabeth Taylor, which I thought was fantastic. So this new film is written, adapted by Justine, I think Waddell W A D D E L L. Waddell, you would say. Waddell features an ensemble cast which is Hayley Bennett, Tim Spall, who we just heard from Lily Allen, Jennifer Saunders, Jack Whitehall, Sally Phillips. So the non apparently. Well, I haven't read. The novel centers around four main characters and raises the question of whether love and marriage do indeed go together like a horse and carriage. In the case of the film, which is set in 1910 London, it takes apparently some incidental threads from the novel which it then expands. As I said, I only know this from reading the research on it. Cause I haven't read the novel cause I'm not very well read. So in this story, Hayley Bennet is Catherine. She's an autodidact wannabe astronomer who wants to go to Cambridge to study maths and the stars. And her father, played by Timothy Spall, has other ideas. He wants her to marry William who is this kind of Tim? Nice but dim type, played rather well I think by Jack Whitehall. She resists the proposal. Meanwhile, her mother, played by Jennifer Saunders, has been working for years on this still incomplete biography of the late grandfather who's a poet and critic. And she's being encouraged to cut it down radically to mother. And to this end they have brought in an editor, Ralph, played by Elias Barrick, who is the antithesis of William. And then her horizons, Catherine's horizons are broadened by her cousin Cyril, who she goes with Cyril to a men only meeting of an astrological society. She's dressed as a man. You ever see Nine and a Half Weeks? I know it's a strange comparison, but there's a scene in Nine and a Half Weeks which Kim Basinger dresses as a man to go out with Mickey Rourke. It's a kind, but it's like one of those things about, yeah, she doesn't look like a man, but she's dressed as a man. Therefore you have to assume that she gets into Melanie spaces. She also, Catherine also becomes friends with Mary Datchett played by Lily Allen, who finds who is a kind of a much more outspoken, free spirited figure. And through these kind of encounters she starts to find ways to challenge the assumptions of society and what is and isn't possible. Now if any of that sounds heavy, it's not meant to because you've seen the film as well. The tone of is actually very, very light. I don't mean lightweight, but I mean light. It's a very, very enjoyable watch and I really enjoyed the film. And when you look, it's interesting when you look at the poster, the poster is quite a smiley poster. It's got, you know, faces of people that, you know and they all seem to be sort of half smiling. But the thing that's important to say is that that doesn't mean that it doesn't have darkness behind it because, you know, smiles, period costumes, all that stuff that, that we love. But it is dealing with some darker subject matter and I think a lot of that is encapsulated by the fact that Hailey Bennet is so good in the central role. She has got one of those faces that is able to telegraph when somebody's smiling but it looks, you know, that they're screaming on the inside. There's something about the way that she, her facial expressions work that she's very, very good at that. She's also very good at doing somebody who has lots to say but isn't saying it because of the circumstances. She's in just require her to. To be clipped and all of that politely nodding in the affirmative. And I think all of that really helps the movie have this kind of balancing act between the stuff which is deep and got real emotional and political stuff going on in it and the stuff which is just really entertaining to watch. I mean, I think the role not simply allows Hayley Bennett to shine, but absolutely demands that she does so because otherwise the film wouldn't work. As for. For Tina Grabbie, she's a terrific director. She's got wit, confidence, deceptively light touch. I mean, I think the film, as I said, it feels breezy and entertaining even when it's dealing with some tough stuff. And, you know, you got the title, Night and Day, as that suggests. It's the balance between light and dark. It's the balance between the things that are difficult and the things which are funny and comedic. And I think it gets all those things really right. And I sent you a message to saying I, you know, I hope you liked it. And you said, I did.

[Tim Spall]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Tell me what you liked about it.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, well, I just. Hailey Bennett is. Who always reminds me of Jennifer Lawrence, just visually.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I just. I think. I think she is incredibly versatile and very watchable. And I thought it felt like it was a true story. You know, it felt like the director had found this and they turned it into a drama, whereas. As opposed to a novel by Virginia Woolf, which it didn't feel like at all. But then you did say it was, you know, loosely adapted from ideas that came up in it. So I thought it was a good ensemble piece. You know, everyone. Tim is great. He's.

[Mark Kermode]

But he is really great. I mean, he's great in everything. He can do absolutely anything. But the kind of. The gap between being pompous and malign is very. Because there are scenes in the film in which he is quite scary, you know, so he's not just this kind of figure of fun. There's an edge to his authoritarianism.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Oh, no, absolutely. And Jack Whitehall, who I'm quite happy not to watch most of the time, but was exactly right.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. I thought he was really well cast, and I think he does it really well. I think he does that Tim, nice but dim role really well because it's hard to get the balance of that right and not just become a character. And I don't think. And I'm not really familiar with much of his other work, but. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And then there's just a hint of the. As they've staged it. Impending First World War. When one of the characters turns up in costume, you think, oh, yeah, okay, that's all about to. That's all about to come and change everything. But it felt like a great story that was being explained to me for the first time. Even though it's not a true story, it sort of has the essence of truth about it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And there is a strong element of truth about it.

[Simon Mayo]

And the title is Virginia Woolf's Night and Day. It's not night. It's not.

[Mark Kermode]

The title of the film on the posters is Virginia Woolf's Night and Day. And in fact, I think that's actually how it comes up on the BBFC site as well. So, yeah, that is the. Yeah, Virginia Woolf's Night and Day is the full title.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Correspondenceodemo.com when you see it, let us know if you're on Patreon. Of course, you can get Take One and Take Two ad free. Although the ads that Mark and I read out are hilarious. The highlight of the show. Plus you get our exclusive bonus Take Ultra every fortnight, which is a live 30 minute show. Loads of other benefits. Also in Take Ultra, I think we should start doing travel news and racing.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine.

[Simon Mayo]

Just like the old days. Yes. And you can use our June 90 code. That's capital J U N E 90 for 90% off, which is clearly ridiculous. So grab this offer while it's still there. Standby for the greatest comedy lift of all time. Everyone's favorite, but it's slightly different, so you might feel a little bit too disorientated. But the sound effects are the same.

[Tim Spall]

Here we go.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I. Mark, there's a fun change to the format this week.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, dear.

[Simon Mayo]

You are going to be playing the role of Mr. Punchline.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

And you have to do it in the style of one of your most famous impressions.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

You'll know it when you hear it.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Tim Spall]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Is the music slightly loud?

[Mark Kermode]

I think it's just Crank it down, guys.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you. Oh, so. Hey, Mark. Hey, Grandpa Mayo. A war hero told me this story. He was in charge of interrogations at a prisoner of war camp in 1944.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

They called him a. They called in a German soldier, a Japanese soldier, and an Italian soldier for grilling.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

There's a little bit of stereotyping that.

[Mark Kermode]

They walk into a bar.

[Simon Mayo]

The German soldier insists that his superior Aryan genetics will allow him to resist intelligence interrogation. The soldier was, after all, as thin as Goering, as blond as Hitler, and as tall as Goebbels. The Japanese soldier claims that his unyielding semi religious devotion to the Emperor will give him the strength not to crack. The Italian soldier, just a young squaddie, says he wishes he had the other two's fortitude because he's sure he'll crumble quickly. During the interrogation, however, the Italian is the only one to completely withstand the cross questioning. Impressed Grandpa. Stand by, Mark. Punchline.

[Mark Kermode]

There we go.

[Simon Mayo]

Impressed grandpa Mayo said to the Italian, go lummy chummy. How did you withstand that questioning and not crack at all? And the soldier said, hey, I want

[Mark Kermode]

to talk, but are they tied my hand to the chair.

[Simon Mayo]

Now, how much racial stereotyping was there in that joke? I think there was. I'm a nominate.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm a nominate. So was that Zack, Jack, Bob?

[Simon Mayo]

So the suggestion was Roberto Benini or Jared Leto? So you went with the. The easier one.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, well, I went with either. You know, I can do, I can do, I can do more Roberto Benini if you want.

[Simon Mayo]

No, it's fine. Still to come, Mark. Well, I'll tell you, Simon, there is

[Mark Kermode]

A Toy Story 5. Yes, Toy Story 5.

[Simon Mayo]

Animate.

[Mark Kermode]

He says animate.

[Simon Mayo]

He said animate. Yeah. Toy Story 5. I'm an Ammonite.

[Tim Spall]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

And then I'll be. Kate wins it in ammonite hydration break, please. Okay, so before we get to Toy Story 5, Craig has sent us an email. Dear 12 and 12AMark's recent answer about film ratings and the introduction of the 12A certificate in brought back memories of a year 7 school trip abroad. Each night the teachers would allow us to watch a film in the hostel that we'd taken over for the week, picked from a selection of films brought by students from home. However, there was widespread dismay when we were told that we could categorically not watch anything 15 or 18, a sensible position in hindsight, given that we were either 11 or 12. More bizarrely, we were told that anything rated PG wasn't OK because our parents weren't physically there to offer the guidance a PG rating suggested. Just when it looked like our entire week was going to be nightly watches of extremely child friendly fare, the teachers decided that 12A films were fine for us to watch because some of you are 12 and those who aren't are being accompanied by an adult. I imagine that this isn't quite how the BBFC intended for their ratings to be interpreted, but we were all extremely grateful that it meant we could spend our evenings watching Austin Powers rather than Pocahontas. So that is, legally speaking, you can't watch a pg. No parents are here.

[Mark Kermode]

No parents.

[Simon Mayo]

But you can watch a 12 because you are 12 or there's an adult.

[Mark Kermode]

I always come back this I mentioned this last week. People of our age will remember this, but it used to be the certificates were U and A and an a certificate movie was that you could only go and see it with an accompanying parent or guardian. Right. And so what you would do well, what I would what everyone I knew would do if you want to go see Planet of the Apes and it's an A and of course your parents didn't want to go see Planet of the Apes, so you'd have hang around outside the odn Hendon until some random adult you go mister, will you take a sit at screen three?

[Simon Mayo]

Sounds like a very, very bad idea.

[Mark Kermode]

Like a very, very bad idea. But that was literally what we did.

[Simon Mayo]

Certainly not what we did in Worthing, let me tell you.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, really? No, she's doing Worthing. You're going with a. With a priest or a.

[Simon Mayo]

No, we just didn't break the law.

[Mark Kermode]

It's not breaking the law. Accompanying parent or guard. Judas Priests been very good.

[Simon Mayo]

Was it Saxon?

[Mark Kermode]

Is it Saxon?

[Tim Spall]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Breaking the law. Breaking the law.

[Simon Mayo]

I think it's genius priest. Anyway, before we get to the I am indebted to Amori BSc, MSc, PhD Analytical Chemistry, University of Southampton, MRSc. Dear movie doctors, this is Amaury LTL FTE Frenchman, based in Singapore, but writing to you now from Sunny Saint Jean de Luz.

[Mark Kermode]

Everybody says to him when his moon hits, when the moon hits the sky, like a big pizza piece, that's amore.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I'm enjoying a family holiday with the good lady business developer and child number one. I am writing to you about the various Asian editions of the Movie Doctor's book. A few weeks ago, Simon pulled a volume off his shelf, identifying it, or was it Mark, as the Korean edition of your good book? Now, I typically only listen to your podcast. That wouldn't have been the wiser, but that day the algorithm had led me to your YouTube video. Looking at the COVID of the book, I realized that this was definitely not Korean script, but rather traditional Chinese characters.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, in that case, it was the

[Simon Mayo]

Chinese edition, meaning that it was probably a Taiwanese edition with a title roughly translating to welcome to the Movie Hospital. I let the matter lie, convinced the listener would swiftly correct this small issue. This, however, hasn't yet happened, and Mark, in the latest episode, identified the same volume again as the Korean edition. I decided this was a reason good enough to warrant my first email to your good selves after asking confirmation from my lovely wife, who pointed out that it could also be an edition from Hong Kong, I resolved to write this emergency email. I hope you'll find this informative. Mat non celleur de l'. Apparatif. Sincerely, La Pamont de Matante. So, okay, so my guess is it's the Taiwanese.

[Mark Kermode]

The Taiwanese. There is definitely two different editions. One of them which will be that one, and then there is another one which is Korean. There is a Korean edition which has got a completely different cover.

[Simon Mayo]

I think it's almost like we need an expert to tell us what our book is. Really?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, we just wrote it. That's it.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, so thank you, amore. The Taiwanese edition is our favorite one because of the way they've done it. Anyway, enough of that nonsense. You might have noticed there's a new Toy Story film out. This is number five.

[Mark Kermode]

Toy Story five. Directed by Andrew Stanton, written by Stanton and Kenna Harris. Voice cast includes returning voices Tom Hanks, Tim Allen, Joan Cusack, Tony Hale, John Ratzenberger, Wallace, Sean Blake Clark, Annie Potts, Bonnie Hunt, Christian Keanu Reeves, Ali Mackie along with Greta Lee, Conan o', Brien, Craig Robinson, Shelby Ribara, Scarlet Spears, Nick and Michelle Harris, Mattie Matheson, Uncle Tom, Ernie Hudson, Alan, everybody.

[Simon Mayo]

Is that Uncle Tom Cobley making another appearance?

[Mark Kermode]

I was always surprised when somebody said I went looking it up because people don't know Uncle Tom Cobley and all anymore. But there we go. So this is the first in the Toy Story series that doesn't have any involvement from co creator John Lasseter who left Pixar in 2018. Randy Newman back in the score, Taylor Swift contributing. So, but I'm gonna read you the plot synopsis before we go into the clip and I'll then explain why I'm reading you the synopsis. Okay, so the plot synopsis goes after Woody left Bonnie to stay with Bo Peep and help abandoned toys find owners, Jesse becomes the leader of Bonnie's room with Buzz lightyear as her second in command. However, a now 8 year old Bonnie has become enamored with her new favorite plaything, a frog like tablet named Lily Pad. Greta Lee. Now Buzz must have Woody return to help them open overcome Lily Pad. Here's a clip. Hi. What the.

[Simon Mayo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to scare you.

[Tim Spall]

Sleep mode, you know.

[Simon Mayo]

No, eh, forget it. Was just gonna hop on the charger. Battery could use a little refresh. I want to talk to you device. Please call me Lily. Now look here.

[Mark Kermode]

Me and the toys have been working all summer to try and get Bonnie to make friends with the Jordan twins across the street.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, but then you had to ruin

[Mark Kermode]

it with all your stupid. You're not even listening to me.

[Simon Mayo]

No, no, I was listening. I'm always listening. See, now, look here. Me and the toys have been working all summer to try to get Bonnie to make friends with the Jordan twins. Now in Spanish. Now as a wrap. Me and the tourists been working all summer trying to get Bonnie makers.

[Mark Kermode]

First dance, honey. This concerns me ethically. Now I'm looking at you and wondering whether. Are you laughing or.

[Simon Mayo]

I was quite. I was quite intrigued by that, partly because I think Greta Lee is amazing.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, she is.

[Simon Mayo]

And she needs to come on the show. If she's listening, I'm sure she's a regular listener. We'd love you to come on the show, Greta.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, okay, But I thought if you're

[Simon Mayo]

going to make Toy Story 5, that's the one that you're going to make.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay?

[Simon Mayo]

The one. The one where the kid is only interested in the tablet. So I understand where that's heading.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so. Well, here's my take on it. Toy Story 1 was.

[Simon Mayo]

But I haven't seen the film.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, I know, I know, I know. So Toy Story 1 was revolutionary. Changed the face of, you know, modern animation. Really did. I remember the first time we saw it, digital animation back then was, like, trippy. You couldn't quite figure it out. Toy Story 2, astonishingly, I think, was actually even better. I mean, and we know the whole story, but it was originally gonna be straight for the small screen. And Then Toy Story 3 basically completed the trilogy. It was this absolutely wonderful, sentimental, heartbreaking conclusion and the perfect trilogy. And we said at the time, it's like the before mov. It is perfect in and of itself. Then Toy Story 4. Now, Toy Story 4 felt unnecessary, but it did, I think, still have some of the magic of the original trilogy. It didn't add to the trilogy, but it didn't detract from it either. And Tom Hanks had said, okay, that's it. We're done now. Although they're not. So this, for me, is the first proper Toy Story disappointment. Now, I should say. We're recording this on Tuesday, so I have no idea what the reviews for the film are, because the reviews, I think, are embargoed until the end of today.

[Simon Mayo]

We're only interested in your review.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I know.

[Simon Mayo]

Take no notice.

[Mark Kermode]

I know, I know. But I'm just saying. So I don't know. You know, this is kind of slightly sort of setting into it. Usually you've got some sense of how reactions to films have been, but this is the first time I found myself and I saw it in the cinema in the West End and I was right at the back, so I was completely, you know, away from everybody else because I wanted to watch it on my own. This is the first time that I found myself sitting in a cinema in the company of Woody and Buzz and Jesse and the gang, and finding myself bored, baffled, and occasionally a bit cross. The problems are many fold, and whenever I say that, I always think of Benny Hill. But a woman's needs are many fold.

[Simon Mayo]

Soon she married dead.

[Mark Kermode]

But anyway, let's not get distracted by that. So firstly, the plot. The reason I read you the plot synopsis is because the plot is all over the place, right? Toy Story 1 was simplistic. When kids leave the room, toys come to Life. Toy Story 2 is a bit more existential. They discover that they're part of a production line. There's the whole thing about. It's not just, you know, it's almost like David, an AI. And then Toy Story 3 is the end of Winnie the Pooh. It's the whole thing about the time to put away childish things. And you and I, when we reviewed it, when we were talking about it, when we were almost in tears, I mean, we were almost unable to broadcast

[Simon Mayo]

it was potential, particularly listeners reactions and the emails that they sent in about how they had responded.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, but we responded because we felt the same way. Okay, Toy Story 4, I can't remember much of the plot. I think some of it took place in a fairground and it was. A lot of it was outdoors. But I don't really remember much of the plot.

[Simon Mayo]

Do you? No, I don't think I even saw it.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay, fine. This time the narrative is simultaneously too complicated and too simplistic. Okay? The simplistic thing is it's the battle between old toys and new tech, you know, flagged up by the arrival of Lily Pad. And hey, you know, guess what? Spending time alone on your screen can make you lonely. Which is like, okay, but in the first Toy Story, the arrival of a flashy new toy, already Buzz turns up, you know, you've got old style Woody, and then Buzz turns up. And then we went through all of that. And short of saying that kids need to put away their screens and use their imagination, it's fine. This doesn't really have anything new to add. Plus, it really hedges its bets. I mean, when you're talking about, you know, it's the thing About. Yeah, obviously, they've got to do new tech. Look at the way. Look at the way it plays out. I mean, it's. You know, it is very much a kind of. And, hey, we're all. We're all a bit, aren't we? We're all playing for the team. So that's the simple bit. The complex bit is the narrative. I was making notes during it. Okay. Basically, my version of the plot goes right. Starts with there's an entire army of Buzz toys washed up on a desert island or something. They've now got enhanced capability see Toy Story 2. Then it goes to the child who's got Jesse and the horse, but no friends, and gets a lily pad to make friends, but the friends then laugh at her having toys, which she throws out, which then, through a really convoluted plot twist, end up being delivered to an old address from the past where this other child lives, who's the only other child who still plays with her toys but also has a lily pad, and with whom Jesse clearly be united, but isn't. And then there's another strand about Woody being accidentally called back due to a conversation on a walkie talkie, which he mishears. And then Jesse needs him as a deputy, but she doesn't. And then they're on a farm. And then there's a bit with a horse and a pig. And then there's some stuff about Buzz wanting to marry Jesse but being unable to tell her that that's what he wants to do. And then there's some stuff about Jesse's previous owner growing up but still loving Jesse. And then there's some stuff about forgetting. And then there's some stuff about remembering. And then there's some stuff, all the toys, all the lily pad being in a truck, and then they have to chase the truck. And then it turns out that you remember the whole thing in the first Toy Story, that's not flying, that's falling with style. Right. By the time you get to Toy Story 5, oh, no, they fly. They fly. And in fact, if there is anything that is symptomatic, symbolic of what's gone wrong, it's that in the first film, that's not flying. That's falling with style. And in the fifth film, no, they're just flying, which, incidentally, makes no sense. And the last bit is particularly significant because if you throw away the magic, if you throw away the thing which made the first one, which was the idea is so simple, the idea is so straightforward, and the magic is he's flying with falling. And then you go, no, we're updating. You go, okay, fine. I'm sorry. I'm just checked out now. There are individual moments which work. Of course there are. Because when you have a voice cast this good and when you have characters that are this resilient that we've spent four movies with and we've got so much emotionally invested in, of course things are going to work. But the things that made me emotionally move were. I mean, look, the sight of a. Of a young child being cyberbullied is moving. You don't have to be a psychopath not to be moved by that. But that is not enough. And whereas the original Toy Story movies, they had this kind of heart and soul and this simple idea. This felt very much to me like a film from the director of John Carter of Mars. It's kind of weirdly aimless and bloated and all these numerous warring elements. It's like they're all sort of struggling for their moment in the sun, but none of them are cohering. It's like somebody just threw a whole bunch of stuff at a whiteboard and said, let's see where any of that lands. And worse, worse, worse. The moments that do work, the moments that made me moved and start to well up, felt manipulative, and it never felt manipulative before. So the cast is bigger, the canvas is bigger, everything is bigger. Yet somehow its ambition, its emotional ambition feels much smaller. I mean, not small in a kind of intimate way, but small in a kind of scant rewards way. And honestly, I lost patience with it somewhere around about the midway mark. And then when I lost patience with it, I then became overwhelmed by this sense of sadness about the. With the Toy Story movies, which is that it was almost like I was growing up in real time, that I was sitting in a cinema with these characters that I love that have meant so much to me over the course of the time that we've done this show. And for the first time ever, I was like, come on, come on.

[Simon Mayo]

So you were feeling all Toy Story 3 about Toy Story 5.

[Mark Kermode]

I was feeling all Toy Story 3 about Toy Story 5. And it was, you know, I mean, what I wanted to be was I wanted to be a young kid gurgling at the. I wanted to be the kid sitting in the chair unable to sit still because they're so excited. And in fact, I was the old guy from up going bah. And slamming the door in the film's face. Now, I confess, I know that I can do this, that I Can just go, okay, fine. No, I've lost it now. I've lost patience. And I am sure that next week the film will do fantastically well and we will get loads of emails from people saying that they went and they had a great time. And I'm sure that's the case. I really wanted to love it and I did not, not care for it at all. And in fact, I got quite cross with it quite quickly.

[Simon Mayo]

I wonder if in future years, kids will.

[Mark Kermode]

What?

[Simon Mayo]

Or just young people will watch this film and go, wow, so back in the day, under 16s could watch this stuff. Because that's the big story this week when we're talking about the government plans to ban social media for the under 16s.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And I've only heard that clip. And Greta Lee's character was obviously annoying when was intended to be annoying. And then you mentioned the cyber bullying.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, cyberbullying is. She's got a lily pad. And they can message each other. So I don't know whether that counts as social media.

[Simon Mayo]

But if the. No, I'm wondering if that's exactly the kind of thing that the government are trying to, as they have done in Australia, say, no, you can't do that.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I think.

[Simon Mayo]

And the tech companies need to make sure that that doesn't happen. So this is actually quite a newsy, newsy film.

[Mark Kermode]

I think that it's completely coincidental that these two things are collide. And I also think that what the film has to say about. Cause it's like, is it online? I mean, you know, are there the whole thing about powering up and powering. It's just. None of it makes any sense. None of it. None of its connectivity makes any sense at all, even to a Luddite like me. But it's like, you know, the lily pad thing in which they're messaging so they're friends sitting together, but they're messaging each other on the thing. Does that count as social media?

[Simon Mayo]

Probably does.

[Mark Kermode]

Probably does.

[Simon Mayo]

So I wonder if this. If this film.

[Mark Kermode]

Ban this filth. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I wonder if it's gonna be one of those. Does the film add to the people who say under 16 shouldn't be able to watch it or not?

[Mark Kermode]

No. Can I be honest with you? I don't think it adds anything to any debates at all. I think it is literally a product. I think it is a product and I don't think it has anything profound to say. And I hate the fact that I'm saying that about a Toy Story film.

[Simon Mayo]

It would be interesting to know in the same way as that we had a disclosure day email from someone who'd gone with a 9 year old. Be interested to know if you go and see Toy Story 5 with a 9 year old or similar. And I'm sure to find out, you know, what they thought of it and whether their reaction was any different.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm sure that we will get get emails from people saying, and as I said, I am at least aware of this. I am aware that I am the old guy from up. But I can't lie to you, I really didn't like it.

[Simon Mayo]

Child one, who has two kids of his own, is flying back into the country this weekend so that he and I can go and see gorillas. Oh, and they're playing at the Tottenham stadium, which would be great. And Toy Story 1 I went to see, as I've mentioned before, because it was a pg. And I thought. Because child one was like four, yeah, thinking, can he go and see a pg? You know, why is it a pg? So I'm thinking that's how long these films. Because the maths is one thing. And then you equate it to where you are in real time. You think, these have been with us forever.

[Mark Kermode]

When the first Toy Story movie came out and we, I was shown just before it came out, we were shown a sort of a working some bits of it. And I remember us all sitting there going, what is this? That's not a three dimensional. Like the CG was so well done that it was like, I can't quite figure out what I'm watching. Like I said, it felt slightly hallucinatory. And then of course you see the film and the genius of the film is that the technology is not what's important. The genius of Toy Story is that it's the characters that are important. And that is true of 1, 2 and 3. It's less true of 4, and it's absolutely not, not true of 5.

[Simon Mayo]

Correspondence@Kevin Amer.com I'm sure, as Mark said, I'm sure we get lots of correspondence about Toy Story 5 and I'm happy,

[Mark Kermode]

I'm happy to be contradicted.

[Simon Mayo]

Please let us know what you think or you may well agree. So it may well be that, you know, it wouldn't be a surprise if five was disappointing. Really.

[Mark Kermode]

No, exactly. It is the difficult fifth album.

[Simon Mayo]

So just before we're done, we have a Watson, you can send us a voice note, send us a video of something that is movie related or movie adjacent.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

For example, here is Santosh. Hello, Simon. And Mark, this is Santos Joy from film at the Hearth in Horsley, Northumberland. On Saturday, June 27, we're hosting a special 40th anniversary screening of James Cameron's sci fi action classic Aliens. And we're going to be joined by Neil Cole of the Museum of Classic Sci Fi who's bringing along some of the museum's film used xenomorph exhibits, giving fans a rare opportunity to see some real movie monsters up close. Start Saturday 27th of June.

[Mark Kermode]

Film at the Hearth in Horsely. Game over, man.

[Simon Mayo]

That's exactly what you want.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a very good build backstage.

[Simon Mayo]

Santos, thank you very much indeed. You can send all your stuff to correspondenceodemo.com this is. That's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh and Heather. The producer was Dom. The redactor, Simon Ball. Gully gets a mention. I think Gully should have a mention because he is. He's actually in charge and he turned off our air conditioning, which is why my. My throat is dry in take two. Not one, but two reviews. Mark will also be in another place. You'll be in a hotel somewhere. The acoustics will be different and weird.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, the acoustics will be horrible.

[Simon Mayo]

Reviewing Nino and Lesbian Space Princess. So come and join us on Patreon for the exclusive. Good stuff. Mark, what is your film of the week?

[Mark Kermode]

It sounded like you said I was going to be reviewing a film called Nino and Lesbian Space Princess.

[Simon Mayo]

Could be. Could run them all together.

[Mark Kermode]

Film of the week. With apologies to the Welsh speaking listeners, Effy, Ablaini or Effie.

[Simon Mayo]

We'll be back next week with a review of Supergirl. I would think, amongst other things, I can bestow a year's Ultra membership. I'm gonna give it to two people. Can I do two? Can I give it to two people? Redacted. Doesn't look that impressed. He's gonna have to come out of his own money. But I think if we could mention Olaf Ringelband and Serge Zehnder, they just sound like two wonderful characters in a movie. And also they were very informative and interesting thing. Email. So Serge Zainder and Olaf Ringelband are going to get a year's Ultra membership

[Mark Kermode]

and a consolation prize to Zafob Beeblebrox.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you for listening. Take two has landed alongside this one.