Is Stephen Graham another bad boy in THE GOOD BOY?

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Is Stephen Graham another bad boy in THE GOOD BOY?

Date: March 19, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode & Simon Mayo
Main Guest: Stephen Graham

Episode Overview

This episode revolves around a review and in-depth discussion of the new psychological black comedy The Good Boy (titled Heel in the US), starring Stephen Graham and Andrea Riseborough. The hosts also break down other major releases—Dead Man’s Wire, Ready or Not 2: Here I Come, and Project Hail Mary—with Graham appearing for an extended conversation about his role, the film's themes, and his approach to acting. Lively banter, listener correspondence, and film recommendations round out the show.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Banter, Recommendations & Housekeeping

[03:08 - 06:43]

• Simon introduces the term “frame mogging” and the perils of new hi-res podcast camera setups.
• Oscars debrief: Listeners are pointed to a special episode for detailed Oscars coverage.
• Upcoming content: Reviews for Dead Man's Wire, Ready or Not 2, and Project Hail Mary, plus a segment with Stephen Graham for The Good Boy.
• Memorable Quote:

  “If he [Stephen Graham] stars in a film, he's going to make the film better.” – Simon Mayo [06:26]

2. Listener Correspondence & Film Accuracy

[05:42 - 12:04]

• Detailed email on brewing realism in Mother’s Pride with insights from a real brewer, Rob White.
• Teachers praise the podcast’s role in inspiring students toward film studies.
• Mark and Simon riff on the name of the podcast—"on the take"—with self-deprecating humor.
• Memorable Quote:

  “We’re public service broadcasters.” – Mark Kermode [11:54]

3. Review: Dead Man’s Wire

[12:22 - 20:05]

• Gus Van Sant’s new film retells a true 1977 hostage story—weighted with media circus undertones and parallels to Dog Day Afternoon.
• Bill Skarsgård and Al Pacino headline, with a strong focus on evoking '70s aesthetic and themes of media complicity.
• Key Take:
  “Not fiercely original,” notes Mark, “but very gripping” and “well-acted.”
  Quote:

  “[It] walks a very interesting line between all of those things … about the way in which the media can become bizarrely, almost surreally complicit.” – Mark Kermode [19:10]

4. Box Office Top 10 Rundown

[23:06 - 33:44]

• Brief reviews of films in the current UK box office, highlighting The Bride, Epic Elvis Presley in Concert, Mother’s Pride, Reminders of Him (“cheesy melodrama … but it worked for me”—Mark), and Hoppers (Pixar’s latest).
• Listener Letters: Some praise, some light nitpicking of reviews, unique audience stories (“I was the only one in my screening!”).
• Notable Moment: Discussion about how box office flops can be a treat for filmgoers:

  “It’s kind of lovely to see a film in a cinema in which you may be the only person there.” – Mark [25:50]

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Feature Interview: Stephen Graham on The Good Boy

[35:18 - 49:59]

Background and Set-Up

[35:18 - 37:14]

• Graham is introduced as one of the UK’s most dependable actors, with credits read out by Simon.
• Film overview: A family, reeling from loss, kidnaps a young man (Anson Boone as Tommy) to “civilize” him, keeping him chained in their basement.

Graham on Character & Performance

[37:33 - 41:18]

• Describes The Good Boy as a film about grief, broken people, and warped attempts at healing.

• On transforming physically into Chris (his character):

  “My intention was to try and physically make him look like a man who was incapable of any kind of violence.” – Stephen Graham [40:36]

• Andrea Riseborough’s role as Chris’s wife: Their shared history as co-parents in “Matilda the Musical” helped their on-screen rapport.

Themes & Influences

[41:18 - 43:04]

• Victorian moralist overtones—Simon compares the parents’ project to “Victorian missionary” efforts at self-improvement.
• Film night in the script: Showing Kez to Tommy, mirroring Graham's own upbringing.

  “They were things that my mum and dad did with me … trying to educate through creativity.” – Stephen Graham [42:04]

Morality, Social Media, and Satire

[43:10 - 46:44]

• Conversation on social media and intertextuality with Graham’s previous show, Adolescence.
• Simon relays Mark’s (unheard at recording time) description:

  “Impressively nasty black comedy with a hint of Clockwork Orange.” – Mark Kermode [44:16]

• Graham welcomes the comparison, referencing the reprogramming themes of Kubrick’s A Clockwork Orange and Pink Floyd’s The Wall.

On Ambiguity and the Ending

[46:44 - 49:22]

• Explores questions the film intentionally leaves murky—who is the “good boy”? Is “fixing” people ever ethical?
• Family backstory: The couple lost their previous son to addiction—a fact motivating their bizarre “home detox” for Tommy.
• Simon lauds the “twisted” logic and harrowing ending, while Graham shares hints about future projects.

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Kermode’s In-Depth Review: The Good Boy

[50:44 - 56:20]

• Restates the film’s origins (Polish script by Jan Komasa; English adaptation for broader appeal).

• Compares Tommy (Anson Boone) to Alex in A Clockwork Orange:

  "Like Alex, he's a tear away ... also like Alex, he is captured and subjected to a brutal technique designed to reprogram him.” – Mark Kermode [50:59]

• Questions raised:

  • Is coercive reformation ever justifiable?
  • Are the parents traumatized by their own doing?
  • Where is the ethical line, especially as the story veers darkly comedic?

• The ending:

  “A real sort of dark twist of the knife … the blackest of black jokes, really, really dark.” – Mark Kermode [54:03]

• Final assessment:
  "An impressively nasty black comedy about levels of control and coercion, damaging trauma, the lure of cult indoctrination, and Stockholm syndrome. … Bleak, but performed with icy edge and satirical bite.”

Simon’s View

[56:20 - 58:38]

• Admits the film’s “weird” tone is not his usual favorite, but performances—especially Graham’s physical transformation—are compelling.
• Compares Graham’s subtlety to Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs: Atmosphere built before a word is spoken.

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Further Reviews and Features

Ready or Not 2: Here I Come

[64:13 - 71:08]

• Sequel to the 2019 black comedy-horror; picks up with “blood-splattered bride” Grace after the original’s literal family explosion.
• Mark praises it as “a big bucket of blood-drenched popcorn,” relishing its slapstick, splatter, and sisterly dynamic (Samara Weaving & Catherine Newton).
• Standout note:

  “Way better than Scream 5 and 6.”
  “It's not reinventing the wheel, but it is honest in what it is doing and it does it rather well.” – Mark Kermode [70:44]

Project Hail Mary

[76:09 - 90:39]

• Mark’s film of the week:
  • Describes the Phil Lord & Chris Miller adaptation of Andy Weir’s novel as a “friendship in space” tale, spiritual successor to Silent Running.
  • Ryan Gosling stars as an unlikely astronaut who befriends an alien (Rocky) via inventive puppetry for authentic on-screen rapport.
• Key themes:
  • Loneliness and communication in space
  • Importance of emotional fidelity over strict scientific realism
• Memorable quote:

  "It's a big, spectacular science fiction movie, but it's really about friendship." – Mark Kermode [86:28]

• Simon notes Andy Weir’s humor helps parse the science, likening it to “bite-sized chunks” that keep the story digestible.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Stephen Graham’s Character-Changing Skill:

  “My intention was to try and physically make him look like a man who was incapable of any kind of violence.” – Stephen Graham [40:36]

• On Satire & Influences:

  “It’s that trying to reprogram…deconstructing the character you’ve created to survive your own world…That’s reflections of [Clockwork Orange].” – Stephen Graham [45:08]

• On the Ending of The Good Boy:

  “[It] twists the knife…a blackest of black jokes, really, really dark.” – Mark Kermode [54:03]

• On Project Hail Mary’s Emotional Core:

  “It’s a big, spectacular science fiction movie, but it’s really about friendship.” – Mark Kermode [86:28]

• On Audience Experience:

  “It’s kind of lovely to see a film in a cinema in which you may be the only person there.” – Mark Kermode [25:50]

• On Thematic Weight:

  “About the damaging effects of trauma … also about not just the wider role of society, but about the lure of cult indoctrination and Stockholm syndrome.” – Mark Kermode [55:15]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:13] Stephen Graham introduction
• [12:22] Dead Man’s Wire review
• [23:06] Box Office Top 10
• [35:18] Stephen Graham interview begins
• [44:16] “Impressively nasty black comedy with a hint of Clockwork Orange”
• [50:44] Mark’s solo review of The Good Boy
• [64:13] Ready or Not 2: Here I Come review
• [76:09] Project Hail Mary review
• [90:55] Film of the Week announced

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Listener Interaction & Festival Plugs

[71:56 - 76:09]

• Shoutouts for independent film festivals (Ramsgate, Oscar Bright, etc.), listener-run comic “Popcorn”, charity film quiz—encouraging audience participation and contribution.
• Touching correspondence from teachers and local film fans reinforce the show’s influence.

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Tone and Style

• The episode strikes the classic Kermode & Mayo balance: warm camaraderie, wry self-deprecation, and sharply articulate critique.
• Both hosts riff off each other with dry wit while keeping the focus on detailed, thoughtful movie insight.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a standout for listeners interested in challenging new cinema, featuring one of the UK’s finest actors, and nuanced reviews. If you’re looking for an engaging, comprehensive conversation on the ethics of rehabilitation (The Good Boy), the joys of splatter comedy (Ready or Not 2), or the emotional magic of sci-fi friendship (Project Hail Mary), the hosts deliver wise, funny, and sometimes provocative insights, with memorable contributions from Stephen Graham himself.

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Have thoughts on The Good Boy or any new release?
Send your views to: [e-mail]

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark, you know I'm really massive techie, right?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

If you saw me at my local coffee shop in Showbiz North London, you'd probably mistake me for Neo from the Matrix. Without the illegal hacking or sunglasses indoors, obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

What are you talking about? You're having some sort of breakdown? Do you actually even own a computer?

[Simon Mayo]

What I'm talking about, I'm on it now. Talking to you is the transformation my web browsing has been through. Now that I've got NORDVPN on all my devices, I use NORDVPN to keep my online activity safe with encryption, threat protection and dark web alerts to guard against hackers and to secure public WI fi.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, welcome to the future, Simon. I've been doing that for ages. And with one click, NORDVPN can change your device's virtual location so you can access all the things you need when you're abroad.

[Simon Mayo]

Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to nordvpn.com take with our link.

[Mark Kermode]

You'll get an extra four months free on the two year plan and it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description.

[Simon Mayo]

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, a new to MUBI in the UK this March is the brilliant no Other choice from Park Chan Wook. If you're a regular listener of the show, you will have heard me reviewing the film and raving about it. Actually kind of struggling to describe it because it's a black comedy, it's a thriller, it's a social satire, it's about a man whose life starts to fall apart and he takes unreasonable measures to correct things. I was absolutely fascinated by it. I thought it was a terrific film and as I said, it's coming to MUBI in the UK from March 13th.

[Simon Mayo]

You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.comkermodenmayo that's M-U-B-I.com Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[Mark Kermode]

There really is no other choice.

[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get

[Mark Kermode]

an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in Questions?

[Mark Kermode]

You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. Well, here we go. This is another take and you're very welcome. Mark is looking. Well, you were looking incredible. And I was going to do some. What I believe is called frame mogging. So I've just been told.

[Mark Kermode]

Just explain that. Explain the mogging thing.

[Simon Mayo]

I only heard about it when you did like two minutes ago, which is basically, if I was taller than you, I would. I would be able to height mog you.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Simon Mayo]

And if you had better hair than me, you'd be able to hair mog. It's basically pointless bragging as far as I can make out. Okay, so that you did have. You were super high res and then. But your frame rate was poor. But I was looking forward to frame mogging again. Something I've never done. But now I think we're equal. Equal blurry.

[Mark Kermode]

Because we. Yes, right. We're constantly experimenting with new. With new ways of presenting the show to make us look like something other than two old men. And there's a whole new sort of fabulous camera setup which we're going to be moving toward. But unfortunately, when I connected it up to the machine, the machine went, hang on, I can't be dealing with that at all. That's just. That's too many IPS per second or something. I don't know.

[Simon Mayo]

Too many revolutions per minute.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly.

[Simon Mayo]

Everything would be fine if Kate Winslet could just film it for us and frame everything and light everything, then we would always look amazing. Trouble with high res is, you know, you got a blemish. Oh, look, there it is.

[Mark Kermode]

I remember when, when HDTV came in, the panic that went around the newsrooms and everything because suddenly, you know, you were being seen in uncritical close up, basically. I also remember that. That soap operas suddenly started looking like they. They'd been filmed in a backyard because you could see that the sets were sets and everybody had to redo all the. Everything was changed by the. By. By the arrival of hd. Whereas before it was just lovely Vaseline on the lens blur. You know, we all just looked like we were wandering around in showbiz land.

[Simon Mayo]

It was an improvement. That made things worse. And the word for that is vess.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good.

[Simon Mayo]

Which is my favorite German compound word from. From back. Oscars are done. So there Will be. I don't know. We're not planning any Oscar chat here because we've done it already.

[Mark Kermode]

We did.

[Simon Mayo]

And if you missed it, there's a special show which landed on Monday.

[Mark Kermode]

It landed immediately. On Monday morning after the Oscars, we woke up first thing. I stayed up all night in the glamorous Travelodge, Drury Lane. Yes. And then we recorded at 8 o' clock and I think it was up at 9. So, you know, there we go.

[Simon Mayo]

So Travelodge on one hand, Drury Lane on the other, which makes it a

[Mark Kermode]

showbiz location for sure.

[Simon Mayo]

So on what's, what's coming up on, on this program, then, we have a super packed show.

[Mark Kermode]

We have reviews of Dead Man's Wire. It's a new film by Gus Van Sant, Ready or Not two, Here I Come, which is a sequel to guess what, Ready or Not, which I reviewed back in 2019. Project Hail Mary. My interview, surprisingly, with Ryan Gosling. Wasn't you. Because you were in Glamorous Copenhagen was on last week's show. You can still download that. And the Good boy. Which brings us to our very special guest.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Stephen Graham is back on the show. And it's, you know, you just know it's going to be good because he's, again, he's one of those people that if he's being interviewed on a show, he's going to make the show better.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

If he stars in a film, he's going to make the film better.

[Mark Kermode]

He's always worth watching and always worth listening to.

[Simon Mayo]

And you could do just that in a few minutes time. And reviews in take two.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. In take two we have a new film starring Leslie Manville and Kira in Heinz called Midwinter Break.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Also in take two, you get even more of the. The good stuff, including the five Question Film Club.

[Mark Kermode]

Three questions Emergency.

[Simon Mayo]

Last week it was with Nail and I. And since kicking off, it has just last month we've had, among others, the Red Shoes, Fargo, Heathers and the Elephant Man. You can head over to Patreon if you'd like to join that particular club. And with the release of Project Hail Mary, we've been asking you for, for your tip top Ryan Gosling performances in one frame back. And there'll be questions in which Mark in particular has to answer the question, does he feel the same way about Harrison Ford as he did 30 years ago? Anyway.

[Stephen Graham]

Wow.

[Mark Kermode]

Really?

[Simon Mayo]

For that? Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

I can't remember what I thought 30 years. I can't remember what I thought yesterday.

[Simon Mayo]

I shall remind you.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, shall you okay. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Unfortunately, these things are still recorded.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, dear.

[Simon Mayo]

Rob White says. Dear Bitter and mild. I finally caught Mother's Pride a week after release.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Simon Mayo]

And assumed someone would have already written in about its brewing details. Martin Clunes was on the show. He's the star of the film. But since nothing was read out last week, I thought I'd offer a brewer's perspective on just how accurate it all was. So, of course, this is, you know, one hill to die on and so on. And the wrong hawk.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

In Hamnet. The wrong swimming stroke.

[Mark Kermode]

Swimming stroke.

[Simon Mayo]

That's my favorite detail. Absolutely favorite detail. The subplot about adding sugar to the beer later swapped for honey is broadly right. Most fermentable sugars come from grain, and extra sugar is usually for speciality beers or cost cutting. But adding eight pounds instead of three pounds to a batch that size would only bump the alcohol content by under 2%. So calling it attempted murder is ambitious. The brewer's stick looking that filthy made me wince. Though there is some truth behind it. Wood does harbor wild yeast and bacteria, which is why modern breweries avoid it unless they want funky flavors. Historically, though, farmhouse brewers genuinely believe their magic stick gave their beer a unique character. And in a way, it did, thanks to whatever it was that was living in the grain of the wood. Judging blind in competitions is absolutely essential, so they got that right. The brew kit in the film also looked very close to the test setup that we use, but if it really cost 15 grand to replace, the seller definitely enjoyed their day. As for the film itself, I think Mark was a touch harsh. The trailer gives away the whole plot, yes, but it still delivered more laughs and charm than I expected. Though after no other choice in Wuthering Heights. Perhaps I was just needing something lighter. If you're ever in Worcester, drop by the Hop Shed. I'd be happy to show you around. Rob White, who owns the Hop Shed or certainly works there. So that's, you know, a tick for Mother's Pride.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Which does what it says on the tin and the brew, the brewery stuff clear. The brewing detail is clearly pretty much accurate.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good. Excellent. Well, I'm very, very glad. And I think it's doing all right. I think it will feature in the top ten rundown, won't it? I believe I'm looking.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm looking forward to it already. Damien says, slightly confusingly, dear Sir, Madam, which is a little vague. Or it's just a joke.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, I think it's a joke. I think it's. It's a. To whom it may concern, isn't it?

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. I'm a film media, film slash media teacher at St. Michael's in Crosby. Over the past two years, my Year 13 students have followed your podcasts and videos for insights into films that they're studying for their exams this summer. Okay, I realize this might not be possible, but is there any chance of an email, even video message that I can use to help boost their morale and confidence in their run up to the exams? So this is. So that's the first thing. So this is the year 13s at St. Michael's in Crosby. Mark, what is your message to the year 13s at St. Michael's in Crosby taught so well by Damien?

[Mark Kermode]

You have been taught absolutely brilliantly and everything he said is completely correct and

[Simon Mayo]

all the very best for your exams.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, exactly. But, but with the, with the level of teaching that you've had, there is no question you are going to sail through and ace it.

[Simon Mayo]

Damian says, I know this might not be possible, but we've just done it. But at least it's given me the chance to thank you both for helping to bring this subject alive, making it accessible and helping them to achieve some fantastic results. To date, the school serves some of the most deprived areas of the city and through your influence, our students have seen that despite their background that this could be a potential career path. Your influence can be seen in how 60% of the group are going on to study film or film related courses at university from September. You have developed their interest in the subject and encouraged additional supercurricular activity where they have undertaken additional independent research into your talks and programs such as the Liverpool University talk at their literary festival. At this point I was thinking, has he written to the right people? But anyway, you have even helped me with my teaching and made my lessons more entertaining and for that I am eternally grateful. So there you go.

[Mark Kermode]

We're very good.

[Simon Mayo]

We're a national service, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good. I've always said that we were public service broadcasters.

[Simon Mayo]

Damien, thank you very much indeed. Well, we once were properly. And now we're now on the take. Obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

Literally. We are quite literally on the take.

[Stephen Graham]

Well done.

[Simon Mayo]

Correspondence@kevin omeo.com what is new and worth reviewing?

[Mark Kermode]

Did I just say it had never occurred to me. Do you think that's why we're called the take? Because Kermoda Mayer were on the take?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, on the take. I'm sure other people have thought of it. Yes. And if we haven't said it out

[Mark Kermode]

loud before, sorry that we hadn't. Okay, so Dead Man's Wire, which is the new film from director Gus Van Sant, who's the kind of American. He's worked in both indie and mainstream films. My Own Private Idaho, To Die For, Goodwill, Hunting Elephant, and The frankly inexplicable 1990s shot for shot remake of Psycho, which you'll remember. So Dead Man's Wire is written by Austin Kolodni. It is inspired by. By a real life case that I did not know about from 1977, I think, which was a standoff between an irate mortgage owner turned kidnapper, Tony Kiritsis, who took hostage mortgage broker Richard hall in what then became a kind of a media circus. Here is a clip from the film. So I imagine you want to talk about the land and everything that you

[Stephen Graham]

and dad have been going through.

[Mark Kermode]

Through

[Stephen Graham]

dad. Wait, hang on a second.

[Mark Kermode]

Now you turn around.

[Stephen Graham]

Hey, Don. This is serious, Dick.

[Mark Kermode]

Real serious. I'm going to wire this here shotgun to your neck.

[Stephen Graham]

Hey, now, Tony, put it away.

[Simon Mayo]

Tony, you.

[Mark Kermode]

You don't want to do that. This company's done me wrong.

[Simon Mayo]

So I'm gonna let the world know

[Mark Kermode]

what you and your dad have done to me. Simple as that. So that wire is indeed the dead man's wire of the title used to attach a 12 gauge Winchester rifle to the back of Hall's head, meaning that if anything happened to Tony, the gun would go off. There is a. I mean, I didn't know about this until I saw the film, but I looked up. There is a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph of them appearing in a media interview with him standing behind him with the gun literally wired to his head, which became the most famous image from the siege. So in the film, the two central characters played by Bill Skarsgrd, obviously, Bill Skarsgard is the son of Stellan Skarsgrd and is the brother of Robin Star

[Simon Mayo]

and not Starstead, obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

Sarsted. That's right. And I think they all appeared together in Starlight Express. Is that right?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, yes. Yeah, that's right. And. And they all sing backing vocals on Eden Cain's greatest hits.

[Mark Kermode]

That's right. With Peter Sarsgaard. That's correct. That's the one. Good. And Dakota Montgomery. And then Al Pacino has a sort of a small role as Hall's slimy father. The mortgage broker's father owns the company who refuses to negotiate with the kidnapper or admit any guilt in ripping him off, even when his son's head is quite literally on the line. Apparently, Al Pacino filmed all his scenes in one day. Colman Domingo's scenes took even longer. So he plays a DJ who gets dragged in as part of the media circus because the kidnapper will only talk really to people that he trusts. And one of those turns out to be a dj. So there is a weighty debt in this to Sidney Lumet's Dog Day Afternoon, which I imagine you've seen Dog Day Afternoon, right?

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, yeah, a long time ago.

[Mark Kermode]

But it's a, it's a, it's a brilliant film. Again, it's a true story, but starred Al Pacino as real life bank robber. I mean, they took some liberties with the story who became a media celebrity during the course of, of a bank siege. In this story, the kidnapper similarly becomes a quote, goddamn national hero as the public watching this playing out in the, in the media, get behind him as somebody who is standing up against the evil fat cats and, and mortgage brokers. Now, apparently this story has been told before and again, I confess I didn't know about it. There's a feature length documentary called Dead man's line from 2018 and the makers of that doc were involved in the research for this feature which was originally announced a couple of years ago with Werner Herzog and Nick Cage attached to direct and star. There was also. Yeah, I know, exactly, there was. Well, of course, well, anyway, I know all films have sort of different incarnations before, but I just thought that was, that was particularly interesting. There was also apparently a dramatized eight, eight episode podcast starring Jon Hamm which also proved influential. Despite all that, I knew nothing about it at all until I saw the film. And so watching the film, I was seeing the story play out for the first time. And I found it to be gripping, derivative to some extent, because it does have a very, very weighty debt to Dog Day Afternoon. Melancholy in that way, that it's about something that on the one hand is horrible and violent and exploitative, but on the other hand has this kind of air of pathos and crisis underneath it. Gus Van Sant said that when he read the script, there were links embedded in the script. You could go back and you could listen to the original phone calls that were made during things. As I said, this was all sort of solidly documented. And he said that the whole thing had a kind of barnstormer energy to it. And actually, I have to say, the film itself does. I mean, the film does have a kind of very propulsive energy, despite the fact that it can feel like a, like an addendum to Dog Day Afternoon. And I should say it isn't as good as Dog Day Afternoon. But then that's a very, very high bar. I mean, it's like saying something isn't as good as Midnight Cowboy but can have a sort of similar atmosphere to it. I actually found it very gripping. I think the performances are very good. The evocation of the 70s milieu is terrifically well done. I mean, it does look like a. Like a. Like a film which. Which is made in the period in which it is set. And at the center of it you do have this character of this. This guy who is angry and dangerous, but also wronged and feels wronged. And then you've got this appearance by Pacino as this incredibly high handed, sort of smug, dismissive, bad father figure. And then you have the person who has been kidnapped who during the course of the movie, I think does a really good job of reminding you that at the center of this there is somebody in the most appalling circumstance. So I thought it walked a very interesting line between all of those things. And once again, it is a film about the way in which the media can become really bizarrely, almost surreally complicit in the idea of these things, these kind of events playing out. I remember you and I were talking recently about a film in which the media are following a siege situation. And there's all these arguments about whether or not what happens if somebody dies, what happens if somebody gets killed. What, you know, are we still going to be broadcasting it? And I do think those are the kind of questions that you do need to return to. And I think this does go back to them. So like I said, it's not fiercely original, but I didn't know this story. It does owe a great debt to Dog Day Afternoon that it obviously acknowledges by the casting of Al Pacino. But I found it. I found it very gripping. And I thought Skars. I thought Skeleton scars still. And Skarsgard. Bill Skarsgard's performance was really on point because he really gets that thing between anger and pathos and confusion, which is the thing that fires the story.

[Simon Mayo]

I think that other film that you're referencing is September 5th.

[Mark Kermode]

It is starring Robin Starseed. That's the one.

[Simon Mayo]

Which is still such a fantastic film. And if you haven't seen it, worth worth hunting down.

[Mark Kermode]

And if you're. And if you're watching this on YouTube and you feel like commenting about the fact that none of those people we have mentioned are related to each other. We know,

[Simon Mayo]

but they are really underneath it all. Okay, so we'll be back. Box office top 10 is on the way in just a moment.

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[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark Kermod?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

When we first started our journey in Wizardtainment, did you worry that people might not listen or care about what we had to say?

[Mark Kermode]

I did. What if we made fools of ourselves?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, thankfully it turns out people love it, specifically when we make fools of ourselves. So we needn't have worried.

[Mark Kermode]

That's good, because we're very good at that.

[Simon Mayo]

That said, wouldn't it have been great if there'd been something like Shopify to help us get started? Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. From household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started.

[Mark Kermode]

Get the word out like you have a top marketing team behind you and easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling.

[Simon Mayo]

It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify Today. Sign up for your one pound per month [e-mail] take.

[Mark Kermode]

That's shopify.co.uk take.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, comes the box office top 10 starring. Starting rather disconcertingly at number 10. Yeah, at number 10, the secret agent,

[Mark Kermode]

which I, I absolutely Love. Obviously it would have been nice to see it sweeping the board at the Oscars, but that was never going to happen. But I think it's a. I think it's a really terrific movie and I advise everybody to see it.

[Simon Mayo]

And number nine is the Bride, exclamation mark.

[Mark Kermode]

So there we go. This is week two and it's number nine. So it means it's not going to be in the chart next week, which means that its box office collapse is complete. I think it's a shame because I think it's an adventurous film. I think there are things in it that work and things in it that don't work. But I would much rather see somebody take this kind of swing and fall flat than to see somebody play it safe. But it is a shame. It has. It has properly tanked at the box office.

[Simon Mayo]

Jace from that there London. Dear Video and drone. During Mark's recent review of the Bride, he started off by saying that the two main characters are basically Bonnie and Clyde. To which I immediately exclaimed Bonnie and died.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey. Oh, I am so sorry. I didn't think of that joke. That is a really good joke. That is a really, really good joke. That's. That's up there with everything everywhere, all at twice. I'm sorry. I feel ashamed that I didn't do that.

[Simon Mayo]

Also up there with what in his red planet.

[Mark Kermode]

As I.

[Simon Mayo]

Who's this now? Martha. And it's Martha. Exclamation mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Dear Mark, exclamation Mark and Simon. Exclamation mark. I am writing how exhausting life would be if.

[Mark Kermode]

If it was.

[Simon Mayo]

If everything had an exclamation mark. After everything. I'm going to work. I'm writing this just after my screening of the Bride. And long story short, I loved it. Cue my surprise at finding negative review after negative review which brought back memories to the onslaught received by Joker Folie a deux, which I also enjoyed. This film is many things. It's a fun, campy, wild joyride full of thrill, violence, dancing and Bonnie and Clyde esque chases, which I thoroughly enj. One thing it definitely isn't though is a feminist retelling of Frankenstein which I have seen it called by various reviewers. Frankenstein has always been and always will be a feminist tale written by an 18 year old Mary Shelley who Gyllenhaal spotlights and brings back to not life in this film. For me, a lifelong fan of Frankenstein and all things gothic feminist literature, this was a very fun two hours, albeit spent in little company with unfortunately only two other people in my Screening down with the usual rubbish and up with fun cinema from Martha.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you, Martha. The one thing I would say about that is that if we're going to take anything positive from the box office failure of the Bride, if you haven't seen it in a cinema yet, go and see it. Because actually, it's kind of lovely to see a film in a cinema in which you may be the only person there. No, not lovely for the film. We all accept that it should have done better. But I do love that experience of watching a film when you're not being surrounded by popcorn and noise.

[Simon Mayo]

Interesting to see how many of these films remaining in the 10 would be improved with an exclamation mark. It would certainly fit for our number eight movie, which is epic. Elvis Presley in concert. It kind of feels as though it's got an exclamation mark anyway.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it does. And I loved it. You loved it. The thing that I think is most impressive about it is it's fine. You know, people like Sanjeev loving it because they're die hard Elvis fans. You like Elvis, but you're not a devotee. But I think you. You saw sides of him.

[Simon Mayo]

That that was great. Absolutely great film.

[Mark Kermode]

And I know loads of people now who've seen it who have actively told me that they are not Elvis fans. And they went along grudgingly and they came out thinking, well, I'm sorry, that was a really, really good show.

[Simon Mayo]

Absolutely. Goat is at number seven.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, doing amazingly well. It's very, very average. But in its seventh week, sorry, in its fifth week, it's at number seven. Whereas the Bride, which is a much more interesting movie in its second week, is at number nine.

[Simon Mayo]

But then Scream 7 is at number six.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, and I. That just, just. Well, yeah, that's. I mean, unfortunately, the proof of that is that their franchises are franchises are franchises and they will keep franchising.

[Simon Mayo]

Wuthering Heights in inverted commas is at number five.

[Mark Kermode]

So again, doing pretty solidly. As I said. I had this conversation with Charles Gant about, you know, how well has it done? He said, yes, it has done well. It has more than washed its face and that's great. The debate rages about how seriously one should or shouldn't take Wuthering Heights, but I still think that, you know, it's preposterous and it's ridiculous. But on the other hand, it is a film that is aimed at a certain female teenage demographic that is sorely overlooked by cinemas. And I think the fact that you've got this and the Bride in the top 10 at the same time. They won't both be in the top 10 next week. Only one of them will is encouraging, and I just wish the bride was doing better financially.

[Simon Mayo]

Mother's Pride is at number four.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, top brewing advice, apparently. Great accuracy, not on the addition of the sugar, but correct on most of the other things, including the murky quality

[Simon Mayo]

of the wooden stick, because you never know what is hiding in its grooves. Basically, see our conversation with Martin Clunes. If you want more details on Wuthering Heights on Mother's Pride. I beg your pardon. Although he's in both, so it's Martin's double at number five and at number four, number three, how to Make a Killing.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it's okay. It's okay if you haven't seen Kind Hearts and Coronets, but the thing that I would say is if you haven't seen Kind Hearts and Coronets and you've got a couple of hours free, watch Kind Hearts and Coronets because the thing with how to Make a Killing is, yes, it's fine, but it is effectively a remake of a film which is one of the great dark comedies of all time. And it's impossible to not view it through that lens.

[Simon Mayo]

However, unexpectedly, Bunch of Numbers says, I saw it this evening. It was enjoyable. Similar, similar in some ways to the Housemaid. It's constantly amusing without being lol. Funny. Haven't seen Kind Hearts and Coronets, so I don't have a reference point. So, you know, a lot of people won't have that.

[Mark Kermode]

I know they will see it, but completely cold. If this show is anything at all, and if there is any point in film criticism, it is in saying to direct you to movies you might not have seen. And I can't believe I'm saying this about Kind Hearts and Coronets because when I was growing up, it was just such a staple. I mean, it was on at the, well, what used to be the Rex cinema, like every other week, really. If you haven't seen Kind Hearts and Coronets, you should see it because it's one of those sort of touchstone texts. It is every bit as good as everyone keeps telling you.

[Simon Mayo]

Someone who wants to be called the music. Bunch of Numbers.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

The film could have been a lot darker with a lot more substantive characters, but the whole let me very briefly narrate my life from prison thing was hokey along with most of the acting. Still a good enough plot to watch the whole thing, but very forgettable. There is that film that you, that you, you know, you're halfway through, you think it's 11 o' clock already. Shall I. Oh, no, I'm, you know, I'm going to stay to the end. So it is good enough, but not so great that you'd remember it the following day.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that is a good phrase. Good enough. That'll do.

[Simon Mayo]

Pig number two is reminders of him,

[Mark Kermode]

which is again, interesting because so basically the, the novelist behind it is now becoming the Nick Sparks of our time. And when I was reviewing the film last week, I said, look, it is, it is hokey and it is cheesy and it, and it basically makes no sense in the way that many romantic dramas with a slightly, slightly edgy edge may not do. But on the other hand, it worked for me because in, in the final act, I did find myself tearing up because I'm a sucker for all that stuff. And I was always a kind of. I was always a sucker for the next box. The next box movie. So. So this, this does exactly what it says on the tin. As I said, there is a. When I was raising questions at the beginning about, you know, what will happen with this. Well, the poster itself is a little bit of a plot spoiler, but it is that it. It is, it is a very, very cheesy melodrama that is raised above that by the fact that it has decent enough performances. So Michael Monroe at the very center of it to give it a bit of edge. To give it a bit of reality.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, isn't it? If a film has an edgy edge, as you just said, is that like sharper than just having an edge to the edge?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I realized as I said it that that was, that it was a really foolish thing to have said out loud, but unfortunately that that's the way that broadcasting works.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. And talking of. I mean, we could do more about this when you review the movie, but the poster for the. As far as posters that give things away is concerned.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Project Hail Mary poster. I mean, come on, guys, you can do a lot better than that. It's exciting enough. You don't have to reveal that major thing that you reveal on the poster.

[Mark Kermode]

I know, I know.

[Simon Mayo]

So reminders of him is at number two and the UK box office number one is Hoppers.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Which I think is fine. I mean, it's a Pixar movie, so a fine Pixar movie is. Is a lot better than a lot of other films. I don't think it's classic Pixar, but I Do think that its message of communication and eco friendly themes is. Is something that we need at the moment. Do we have any correspondence about it?

[Simon Mayo]

We do not have any correspondence on Hoppers.

[Mark Kermode]

Well there we go. Simon Poole has just put a breaking news story. One last deal which we reviewed last week is in at number 30. Total gross of 17,000 which means it has a site average of £92 from 187 sites.

[Simon Mayo]

So in the top 10 it's at number 30.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that's right.

[Simon Mayo]

That's. Does that count like as like a mega hit do you think? Huge.

[Mark Kermode]

Huge. I mean they should have called it run with your deal or one last wife.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, well I think everyone involved with that film will be very pleased with that. So well done to so well done to them. In a moment you'll hear a fine conversation with Stephen Graham.

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[Simon Mayo]

Spring Black Friday is on at the Home Depot. Save on grills and patio sets that will be sure to bring your hosting game up a notch. Fire up your feast with help from the Home Depot and save on grills like the next grill 4 burner propane gas grill was $249. Now in special buy for $199 or give everyone the best seat in the

[Stephen Graham]

yard with the Hampton bay Mayfield park

[Simon Mayo]

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[Stephen Graham]

only at the Home depot now through

[Simon Mayo]

April 22nd while supplies last exclusion supplies. See home depot.com price match for details. So we're going to talk to Stephen Graham in just a second. Let's just wish Ollie tetlow all the very best. Congratulate him on some potentially very good news. Ollie, thanks very much for getting in touch.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you very much and we were delighted to get your email. Thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

So Stephen Graham then. I mean every kind of doesn't need any introduction but I'll just run through a couple of highlights.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Gangs of New York Snatch this is England. Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy the Irishman Boiling Point Pirates of the Caribbean, your favorite, obviously. A Venom. Boardwalk Empire. Line of Duty. Peaky Blinders, of course. Adolescence. The Emmy winning Netflix show. Multiple BAFTA nominations. An OBE for services to drama. Everybody loves him. We'll talk more with Stephen Graham and his new movie, the Good Boy after this clip.

[Stephen Graham]

I know it may look unconventional. Believe me, we won't be keeping him there for long. Tommy's going through a rebellious phase.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm gonna obliterate you the second I

[Mark Kermode]

get out of here.

[Stephen Graham]

It's quite impressive, really, how you've managed to aimlessly float through your whole life completely unnoticed.

[Mark Kermode]

You're scared, aren't you?

[Stephen Graham]

Would you think all of this is funny?

[Simon Mayo]

This is real life.

[Mark Kermode]

You're already dead, you scum.

[Simon Mayo]

We treat each other with respect.

[Mark Kermode]

Bad Boy. Bad Boy. Bad Boy. Bad boy. Bad Boy. I would like to apologize for what I did to you. I promise not to do it again.

[Simon Mayo]

Good Boy. That's a clip from the Good Boy. It stars Stephen Graham. Well, and many other people as well, but Stephen, hello. Welcome. Hello.

[Stephen Graham]

Si.

[Simon Mayo]

Very nice to see you.

[Stephen Graham]

Nice to see you.

[Simon Mayo]

So we're. We're recording this interview after Mark's reviewed it. So the review will come. People will hear the review in just a moment.

[Stephen Graham]

Oh, no, that's fine. Sorry.

[Simon Mayo]

It's fine. It's a podcast. They're a different. Different standards. So I can tell you what he thinks in just a moment. So it's called the Good Boy. Just for clarity, in America, it's called Heel. Is that right?

[Stephen Graham]

That is correct. For reasons beyond my control and beyond anything else. I think there was a film about a dog, so they had that title as well, I think, if correct. So that's how they changed it.

[Simon Mayo]

So if you see it as Heel, what we're talking about is the Good Boy. Introduce us in your own words to what we need to know about the Good Boy.

[Stephen Graham]

It's a film about a family who are going through bereavement and grief, and they find a boy and they bring him home. And this boy is. This young man is not a upstanding member of society.

[Simon Mayo]

Should we say no?

[Stephen Graham]

So they bring him home and they try to introduce him to a world of literature and music and love and nice food. And the only thing is, they keep

[Simon Mayo]

him in the basement and chained by the neck.

[Stephen Graham]

And chained by the neck. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so lot. Lots to unpack. Played by Anson Boone, by the way, who's fantastic. He is. He is. I saw him in Mob Land playing kind of the same out of control character, but he's brilliant at you Know, in fact, I was gonna say he feels very dangerous. But you all feel pretty dangerous.

[Stephen Graham]

Do you know, the thing about Anson as well? Sorry to interrupt. The thing about Anton is he's one of the most sweetest, wonderful, kind, gentle young men you will ever meet. He's so respectful. He's the consummate professional. He turns up on time, he knows his lines, and he comes with an idea, and he's just always willing to learn. Do you know what I mean? Which was wonderful.

[Simon Mayo]

So you play Chris, and you're married to Andrew Risebrook, who's phenomenal. He's phenomenal. I'm amazed, after you were parents in Matilda the Musical, that anyone thought you would be good as parents ever again.

[Stephen Graham]

Well, it was a similar thing, was it not? It was parents who were very wormwood. Yeah, it was, but it was. You know, I had such a wonderful experience with. With Andrea, and we. We have the same agent, Jane, who Andrea's been with for, I think, almost as long as me. I've been with Jane for 25 years. And we were talking about this project. It went away at one point, then it came back, and. And I just said, you know what? I've been looking at the script again. Do you think. Do you think Andrea might be free and right for this part? And Jane said, you wouldn't believe it, but she's working on a project with Jan anyway. So let me. Let me find out. And that's.

[Simon Mayo]

So this is Jan Kanasa, who's the director.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Graham]

Who made that beautiful, phenomenal film Corpus Christi. So your character is Chris from Birkenhead.

[Simon Mayo]

From Birkenhead.

[Stephen Graham]

He's not from Liverpool.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. I want to get that. I know there's a subtle difference, but I. It's a massive difference that was lost on me. And we know that you are a powerful man because we've seen you box thousand blows and back sex, all that kind of stuff. So we know that you're very strong and you are very. You have many muscles. So thank you very much. But what I'm fascinated by is how you managed to make Chris appear so weedy. So I know this comes under the heading of acting, but what is it about the way he stands and the way he walks which makes us think this. This man is in conflict, but he's also a bit of a weed.

[Stephen Graham]

Thank you so much. That my job is complete. And coming from you, that's a huge honor. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Honestly, my intention. My intention was to try and physically make him look like a man who was incapable of any kind of violence.

[Simon Mayo]

Is that posture?

[Stephen Graham]

Yeah, yeah, it really is. You know, and it's the physicality of how we create characters, you know, that whole kind of. That's a huge part of what we do. For me personally, so for me to try and transform totally to a man who you would perceive as someone who is very kind of innocent and very insecure and he has all of these things, you know what I mean? He has all of these qualities to him.

[Simon Mayo]

And you and Andrea Riseborough as your wife, they sort of reminded me of Victorian moralists that self improvement is a good thing and that if we can get you away from your social media and we play you classical music and you read classic books, that you can improve yourself. There is that kind of Victorian missionary mindset. Would that be appropriate?

[Stephen Graham]

That's bang on. That's absolutely bang on. And did you see the film that we made him watch as well? Kez.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, Kez.

[Stephen Graham]

Yes, yes, we're watching Kez. So we're trying to introduce.

[Simon Mayo]

You have like a film night. And. Yeah, we all sit down and watch.

[Stephen Graham]

So it's kind of all of those things, you know, look, and I don't mean to be. But they were. They were things that my mum and dad did with me and obviously I wasn't changing the basement.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Stephen Graham]

But that introduction and bringing. And it comes from a place of love mostly in that respect, you know, trying to introduce them to literature and music and films and it's that trying to educate through creativity in a different way, to broaden the mind. That was that. That's where it comes from somewhere. It comes from a place of. To enhance his social mental and, you know, his. His whole well being, basically. That's kind of what it. What it is we're trying to do in that.

[Mark Kermode]

It kind of.

[Simon Mayo]

But it sort of works as well if we just leave the chains, the Tasers and the neck to one side. Yeah, he does. At the start of the film, he hates the idea of reading a book, but then he's clearly getting into it.

[Stephen Graham]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

So this is. Maybe you're trying to do the right thing with just unfortunate methods.

[Stephen Graham]

Yeah, with the wrong methods. So it's. So the idea is. Right. It's the execution of that ideal that we have, which is wrong. Do you know what I mean? In many ways.

[Simon Mayo]

And you and Andrea sit down and you show him some of his social media.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And some of the terrible things that he's been doing.

[Stephen Graham]

So.

[Simon Mayo]

Can I ask you an unfair question?

[Stephen Graham]

Of course.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. It did. It made me wonder what Chris and Catherine, played by you and Andrea Riseborough, would have made of adolescence. Oh, would they have found it uncomfortable?

[Stephen Graham]

No, I think they'd have. They'd have took a lot from it. I think they. Oh, wow, that's you now. You've messed with me, Eddie.

[Simon Mayo]

I feel like.

[Stephen Graham]

I feel like I'm going into some kind of vortex of some kind of.

[Mark Kermode]

Of.

[Stephen Graham]

Okay, so what did my character think about something that I did, Stephen Graham universe. But I'd say, yeah, you've twisted me inside my own bonds. I think they would have found it powerful. I think they would have agreed with what the message was within it. Look, and it's, you know, it's all subjective. You take your own message from it. But I think they would have agreed with its sentiment.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, it just occurred to me halfway through. I just wondered. Cause social media and Tommy's social media is important that, you know, that's where these kind of both these projects. But it is. That's why I said it was an unfair question.

[Stephen Graham]

No, but it was a great question because it got me brain scrambled.

[Simon Mayo]

I'll tell you what Mark thought. Okay. Okay. The thing I wrote down was. Which he hasn't actually said on air yet because he's about to say it. He called it an impressively nasty black comedy with. With a hint of Clockwork Orange.

[Stephen Graham]

Get in. Is that what he actually said?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, that is.

[Stephen Graham]

That's. Mate, that's. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Oh, it's a shame. We've got the posters. We could have stuck that on, couldn't we? Can we still. Is it too late? Because that's phenomenal. That's outstanding.

[Simon Mayo]

All right. Because as we're.

[Stephen Graham]

I'm exceptionally happy we're sitting in front

[Simon Mayo]

of good boy posters, which has got very. I mean, you look at the poster, you go, okay, I know exactly what I'm. What I'm going to see. Unlike anything you'll see this year in a heart stopping thriller, on top of which you can now put an impressively nasty black comedy. Just explain the Clockwork Orange reference for people who haven't seen that.

[Stephen Graham]

Well, it's that kind of, you know, that. Forgive me. It escapes me, the wonderful character that he played in Clockwork Orange. It's that trying to readjust him so he becomes an honorable member of society and that, you know, that fantastic scene. It's a wonderful film, isn't it? It's one of my favorite films. There where they've got his eyes Pinned open, do you know what I mean? And they're filling him with all the. The evil and the information of the world, isn't it? It's kind of along them sense, I think, of trying to reprogram almost similar to kind of like, you know, remember Pink Floyd, the Wall as well. That kind of trying to readjust the brain and trying to readjust the logic and the thinking that you have and deconstructing the character that you've created in order to. Wow, where's this come from? Deconstruct the character that you've created in order to survive your own world and bringing it right back, but through different means and different methods. So for him to say that it had kind of, you know, reflections of that, that's wonderful.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so that's a good thing. So that's a very good thing. Because it's called the Good Boy. I said we need to reference your son, who's called Jonathan, played by Kit Racousin. Is that how you say it? Is he the good. Cause I think is. Right. Is he? Because the film messes with your head a lot. I ended up thinking, is he the good boy or is Tommy actually the good boy? Because halfway through this film, I thought, it's either gonna go that way or it's gonna go that way. And it didn't. It went in a completely different way. Different way. But tell us, so where does Jonathan fit in? Because he's sort of like out of an Enid Blyton.

[Stephen Graham]

He really is, isn't he? And the kind of the process for that is that that's the kid that they are so afraid of losing as he grows up into that world. And it's all about, you know, and Andrea plays it so beautifully, but it's all about. It comes from. For me, my character comes from a place of trying to. It's the woman whom I love. I adore her. Do you know what I mean? I would do anything for her. She's my world. She's my queen. And she's broken. She's completely broken. So my warped, twisting mentality is, how can I fix her? I know how I'll fix her. It's like one of those, really, when your dog dies and stuff. And some people, you know, don't get a dog straight away, but some people would get a dog straight away. So I'm trying to fill that hole in her life by giving her another boy. Because. And it's very ambiguous, but our son that we had ran away. And, you know, there's something about that. And there's something that was. He kept downstairs as well. And we worked on it for a long time with Jane and me and Andrea, come up with the concept that our boy, we tried to give him a home detox. He was, you know, a heroin addict. And so we moved from London for him to be safe now that her parents had left us this big house. But it didn't work out that way. So we tried to chain him up downstairs to kind of basically, yeah, give him a home detox. And he escaped. And we later found out that he was dead. But we never had that opportunity to completely grieve with him. Do you know what I mean? So I'm trying to fulfill that hole. Whereas our little boy, he kind of gets lost because his mother's grief is so great that she's not tending to him and he's kind of lost at the moment. So I take him out on these whole kind of expeditions and like the road thing that we went out and did, you know what I mean? And about safety on the roads and things like that. So I'm trying to mold him into a little me, should I say? And there's that scene which is. Which is harrowing as well. But I remember when I was a kid, and that's why I found it so interesting that it was in the script that, like, my mom and my aunties and things like that used to say when their mum caught them smoking, she didn't give them a telling off, she made them smoke a packet of cigarettes in front of them. Do you know what I mean? So that's in our script as well. So it's that kind of twisted, kind of sadistic chastising of the child.

[Simon Mayo]

Twisted is absolutely right. And that ending.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, let's not talk about that because we're out of time. What do we see you in next, Stephen? Is it Thousand Blows?

[Stephen Graham]

Yeah, I think that's just. Yeah, I think it's just come out now again. Thousand Blows, Series two. Yeah, I think that's the next thing. And then a few bits and bobs that are kind of. We're working on and stuff.

[Simon Mayo]

That's always the most disappointing part of the interview.

[Stephen Graham]

There's not an oh, oh, no. I can say, yeah, I'm going to do this beautiful script, this wonderful film called Ibelin over in Oslo. That's. That's the next thing I'm doing with Toni Collette.

[Simon Mayo]

All right, well, it's been fantastic to talk to you, Stephen. Thank you very much indeed.

[Stephen Graham]

An absolute pleasure and a privilege to

[Simon Mayo]

Always talk to you, Stephen Graham. Thank you. So that was Stephen Graham talking to me. So in the chronology of the show, I spoke to him yesterday, which is Thursday, or it's today, if you've got the show on Thursday, but as we record this on Wednesday, it's tomorrow. In other words, the conversation with Stephen Graham has not happened just yet. So anything controversial and provocative that Stephen just said, Mark cannot react to because

[Mark Kermode]

we haven't heard it. Because it hasn't happened yet.

[Simon Mayo]

Because it hasn't happened. But let's just assume. What an interesting interview. What a fine chap. He is an intriguing film. What did you make of the Good Boy?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, well, since I don't know what Stephen Graham said, I will, I will just sort of recap things because he may have done this already, but I don't know that he has. So the Good Boy is a weird sort of blackly satirical psychological thriller drama comedy by Polish filmmaker Jankamasa or Jan Kamasa, best known for helming the Oscar nominated 2019 feature Corpus Christi. It's based on a script by Bartek Batosic and La CAS Khalid and which was originally written in Polish and set in Warsaw. As I said, Stephen Graham may have covered all this already. The producer is Jesse Skolomowski, who was the legendary filmmaker behind things like the Shout and more recently eo. And he brought the script to Komasa while he was working on Corpus Christi and they've changed the location to Yorkshire and the language to English to widen the potential audience. So Anton Boone is Tommy, this young drug addict thug, very much in the mold of Malcolm McDowell's Alex Delarge in Clockwork Orange. Like Alex, he's a tear away, he wreaks havoc. Also like Alex, he is captured and subjected to a brutal technique designed to reprogram him and turn him into a civilized member of society. One part of which is showing him videos of ultraviolence, as it turns out, his own ultraviolence that he has to watch and become, you know, ashamed of running. This latter day Ludovico technique are Chris and Catherine, who are the couple played by Stephen Graham, who you've just heard from, but from whom I have not yet heard, and Andrea Riseborough, who clearly have some terrible, ill defined trauma in their past. And now they're dealing with it by kidnapping Tommy, tying him up in their basement and either re educating him or torturing him into realizing the error of his ways. All this is happening in a remote son in remote house where they also live with their young son, who appears both devoted to and slightly terrified of his parents. So the film raises a number of questions, many which of which have been asked before in films like Clockwork Orange, which does it in an equally satirical way. So is the incarceration and reprogramming of Tommy justified in inverted commas? What's the trauma that's in the parents past that has led them to this drastic turn of events? How much is that trauma of their own making? How much of it is society thinking Clockwork Orange about? You know, I was led astray by the treachery of others. Society is to blame. It is clearly suggested in various points in the film that their own actions have led to disaster in the past. And most importantly, is it better for Tommy to be a violent free spirit than a subservient Clockwork Orange, the good boy of the title, an obedient dog that needs to be beaten, you know, in order to make it obedient? Also, there's a question that you and I have both seen the film of. What exactly should one make of the ending, which is a real sort of dark twist of the knife? Because there are two possible ways of reading that ending, and the only way I can think of reading it is that it is the blackest of black jokes, which is that it is really, really dark and it has led you to a place of kind of complete nihilism.

[Simon Mayo]

So as, as jokes go, I'm not sure that works.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no.

[Simon Mayo]

But it is certainly, certainly dark.

[Mark Kermode]

Certainly very, very dark. Although I could. I can imagine somebody watching the film and coming to a different conclusion about it. And I think that's kind of the point. So, look, obviously, despite the thematic comparisons to Clockwork Orange, this isn't Clockwork Orange in the same way that Dead Man's Wire is not Dog Day Afternoon. But that is a very, very high bar. What it is is, in my opinion, an impressively nasty black comedy about levels of control and coercion, about the damaging effects of trauma, and also about not just the wider role of society, but about the lure of cult indoctrination and. And Stockholm syndrome, Which again, is something that was also addressed to some extent in Dead Man's Wire. Now, like adolescents, to which obviously this has a genetic connection, it addresses that issue of what is wrong with the youth of today. Although the Register here is far more fantastically playful in as much as it is a fantasy, one isn't meant to believe that this is happening in the. In Budgam's real world. I think it's got a really icy element to it. I Mean, there is a shard of steely cynicism beneath the kind of the stick on wig of cultured civility. Because obviously all the way through it, Stephen Graham is wearing this stick on wig that makes him look like a kind of an ordinary suburban guy. And yet, as you will know, even just from the trailer, him thwacking his kidnapped young man over hitting him until he bad boy, bad boy, bad boy until he concedes than good boy. I mean, there is something nihilistic about which I. It's almost got a kind of Michael Haneker edge to it in its. Both in its cynicism and in its sort of innate suspicion of bourgeois values beneath which there is a kind of brutality and rage and anger seething. So I mean. I mean that as a compliment. I thought the performances were all very, very good. I like the fact that it's kind of out there and. And I personally, I kind of like the issues that he raised. What did you make of it, Simon?

[Simon Mayo]

I. As soon as I realized it was going to be weird, I thought that's not my. My favorite milieu. But the performances are so strong.

[Mark Kermode]

They are.

[Simon Mayo]

That it's difficult to tear yourself away from it, even though you might feel as though you want to, because it is pretty dark in a lot of places. A very few actors, a small handful of.

[Mark Kermode]

It's almost.

[Simon Mayo]

It's like a play in terms of chamber piece. Yeah, yeah. Andrew Riseborough is fantastic. The reason I asked Stephen about posture and act is because you can tell so much. In fact, we would talk when we talk about Hannibal Lecter and Anthony Hopkins last week I mentioned the way the first time we see him and he's standing in the cell and he is all. He's. He hasn't said anything. He is just standing. But how much is portrayed by that and the atmosphere of the film and everything that's gone before. And I'm just fascinated as to how Steven can make himself appear feeble when we know he's pretty hench.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. It's also. It's interesting that, that the character that he plays has this raging violence beneath this apparently very. As I said before, this kind of this bourgeois civilized talking very quietly, talking very reasonably. There's an element of Kathy Bates in Misery in there. You know, Kathy Bates said, I love your stuff and it's all been great, but I am going to break your ankles now. And there is an element of that going on. And again, it is all satirical. It is all very much within this very arch milieu. It is not meant to be taken as a realist piece in the same way. The Clockwork Orange isn't meant to be taken as a realist piece. It is meant to be taken as an architect satire on. On. On the questions that it raises. I mean, I do think it's very bleak. I do think that the conclusions that it comes to are very bleak. But I can imagine somebody watching it and taking a different conclusion away from it because that's. It kind of very deliberately does that. It's a kind of Kubrickian motive. It's the same thing with, you know, with something like Strangelove. You can tell what the. What you can tell what the attitude of the filmmaker is, but you can also tell the filmmakers going, and what do you think?

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Think.

[Mark Kermode]

Go on, what do you think?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what, what an alternative take is on that.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, the alternative take might be. To play devil's advocate, the alternative take might be. Well, you know, they've got a point. He is out of control and he does need to be taught to be a good boy.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, I see. From that point of view. Okay. Well, if you see the good boy would be interested to know what you make of it. Correspondence@kevin ke.com and I do think with that cast, it may well be that more people will go and see it because Stephen and Andrea, they're just like a hallmark of quality. So maybe they're tempted by that.

[Mark Kermode]

You mentioned Andrea Riseborough. It is important because Andre Risborough has almost the most difficult role because for a long time she's. She doesn't speak at all. But what she has to do is convey the fact that something really terrible has happened in the past from which she has not recovered.

[Simon Mayo]

Be interested to expand this conversation. If you get to see it, Let us know correspondencecodermo.com but you know what you need, Mark, if you go in to see an impressively near nasty black comedy, is a proper comedy. Some light comedy, some proper comedy, which you'll find always hidden deep in the laughter lift.

[Mark Kermode]

Excellent.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm not sure about this first one, though. Anyway. Hey, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey, Simon.

[Simon Mayo]

Have you heard the one about Donald Trump having to leave office in utter disgrace, losing all his money in civil suits and having to go and become a lavatory cleaner in Rikers island jail? Have you heard that one?

[Mark Kermode]

I haven't gone.

[Simon Mayo]

No, neither have I. But I simply love the way it starts.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey,

[Simon Mayo]

Mark, the good lady ceramicista indoors came back from, well, obviously Waitrose on Saturday with seven cases of Adnum's broadside Three of Northern Monk's Faith, five boxes of Chianti, five of Riesling, a bottle of whiskey and two loaves of bread. Are we expecting guests? I asked. No, she replied. Then why did you buy so much bread? I said,

[Mark Kermode]

go on. Oh, that's the punchline.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, because it's all the booze and two loaves of bread. Why do you buy so much bread?

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, I'm sorry, I think you fluffed the delivery of that.

[Simon Mayo]

No. Then why did you buy so much bread? That's why I said. I think you feel the understanding of it.

[Mark Kermode]

No, because I thought you were going to make a joke about the. The loaves and fishes. I thought it was going to turn into. That's it. No, it isn't the joke. But I. I thought that's where I got. Okay. I thought that it was like an elevated joke, that the. It was going to be something about load. And then when it wasn't, when it was just like, why did you buy so much bread? That's. That's like the old joke about. Did we come into.

[Simon Mayo]

Frank, you're blaming.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I just have higher expectations of you. I thought you were telling a cleverer joke than you were.

[Simon Mayo]

No. Has that ever happened ever?

[Mark Kermode]

Actually, we have one more. You say that.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. I do have some bad news, Mark. Go on. I open the. I don't have to work on this one. I opened the medicine cabinet this morning and a bottle of mega strength Omega 3 capsules fell on my head.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Simon Mayo]

Ouch. Fortunately, though, my injuries were only super fish oil.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so that's better. Now to go back to the joke before that did. It is also a version of the Castlemaine 4x joke in that advert in which they load up the back of a truck with like 50 crates of Castle Main 4X. And then the person says, you want something for the sheilas? And he says, get two bottles of sherry. And they put two bottles of sherry on the back. And then the axle of the van breaks and the guy says, I think you've overdone it with the sherry. I mean, it's that joke, isn't it? It. But you see, I found Jesus.

[Simon Mayo]

Then Jesus comes along, feeds everybody with the contents of the lorry.

[Mark Kermode]

He says, look at this trick, look at this trick. Bottle water. Bottle. Bottle water. Wine. Yeah. I thought, I think you've spoiled.

[Simon Mayo]

I think you've spoiled the whole thing. It was perfectly fine. And then. And then it wasn't.

[Stephen Graham]

So.

[Simon Mayo]

Coming next, ready or not to project Hail Mary as well after this,

[Mark Kermode]

This episode is brought to you by Ferrero. Soccer's biggest stage is approaching and Ferrero is making it easy to go all in. Pick any two Ferrero brands from Kinder Bueno to Ferrero Rocher and you could win the $1 million grand prize plus an exciting range of daily and weekly prizes. Don't miss your shot. Official rules apply. Learn more at goallin and win.com you tell yourself no one wants your college era band tees, but on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for

[Stephen Graham]

them at merch stands.

[Mark Kermode]

Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back.

[Simon Mayo]

Sell them easily on Depop.

[Mark Kermode]

Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would

[Stephen Graham]

be a money making machine?

[Mark Kermode]

Your style can be make you cash start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so with laughter ringing around the world after that extraordinary laughter lift, let's elevate things even further with Ready or Not two, Here I come.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so this is the sequel to Ready or Not, which I reviewed back in 2019, which obviously is a while ago, so I wanted to refresh myself about it and I went back and I watched the review and I referred to Ready or Not, the first one as a black Corridy Hummer because I did that spoonerism thing that I'm doing increasingly in my old age. So it was a black corridor. And you said Corey Hummer said, I

[Simon Mayo]

like that black Coralie Hummer. Everyone knows exactly what you mean.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, but can you remember what you said about the words Corridy hommer back in 2019?

[Simon Mayo]

No, I'm afraid I can't.

[Mark Kermode]

But I'm Corridy Hommer sounds like a TV star from the from the 1980s who had some hits but then blotted his copy book with that thing. And you're absolutely right, that is exactly what corydee Hommer sounds like. So that was directed by Matt Bettinelli Olpin and Tana Gillette and written by Guy Busick and R. Christopher Murra, who also are back for this sequel. So in the original, Samara Weaving is Grace, Bride of Alex from the Le Damas family who turn out to be a satanic cult. There are gonna be plot spoilers in this because if you're gonna get to the sequel, you have to know what happened in the first one. Okay. She goes to visit the family and we're told that the family are rich and weird and their rich weirdness is that they play A deadly game of hide and seek. So it's like a society like satire about, you know, the rich are not like you and me. And it's enjoyable Splatter. And it ends with Grace outliving the satanic family, all of whom explode before the family home itself bursts into flames. So this picks up from the end of the first film with the blood splattered bride coming out of the house that is now on fire, stumbling onto the steps, lighting up a cigarette, and then collapsing as the emergency services arrive. Because she's just gone through this terrible ordeal, albeit six years ago. Ago, but actually it's kind of last night she wakes up in hospital, handcuffed to a gurney and about to be arrested on suspicion of having killed everybody and blown up the family home. Meanwhile, a creepy old rich guy, played by, get this, David Cronenberg. Oh, exactly. Sends out a message that the Le Dumas clan are gone, the bride is alive, the ball is in play. Now this is a signal to all the other satanic clan members that the top seat of their council, which he holds, is now up for grabs. It is time for another game, this time with several rival families competing to claim the crown by getting and besting the bride, who they get back. And her estranged sister Faith, played by Catherine Newton, to whom she is handcuffed and who is used as collateral to force her to play again, despite the fact that she clearly doesn't want to. Here's a clip.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

We're gonna have to fight him.

[Mark Kermode]

No, we can take him.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

We're gonna have to.

[Mark Kermode]

It's okay, we can take him.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

We've always had each other's backs in the fight.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, we can do this.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Come here, come here, come here.

[Mark Kermode]

That's gonna make a lot of noise. I know it's you. Hold still.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

You hold still.

[Simon Mayo]

My school dentist had a drill that sounded like that. It was just. Just terrifying. That's why I have a fear of dentists.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, well, there's no dentistry in this, but there's a lot of everything else, so. So apparently Bettinelli, Alpin and Gillette, who had gone on to helm Scream and Scream 6, and I have to say, this is way better than either of those two. Apparently they were developing a sister story for Newton and Weaving, which they then retooled for this, rebooted, Ready or not. So they took a script that they were working on for something else which had this kind of sister thing at the beginning of it, and they then got it into this. So the new cast members also included Sarah Michelle Geller and Elijah Wood. Now I enjoyed the original very much. Said it didn't, didn't reinvent the wheel, but it was, it was good fun. This doesn't have the stripped down simplicity of the original. Stripped down simplicity. The original is you go to the family's house, the rich are not like, you know, us, and come midnight they're going to play hide and seek and they play for keeps. This is more kind of complex. There are more elements in play. There are, there are more things being brought in and more faces and names. So it doesn't have that absolute clarity of the original, of the simple idea. What it doesn't have, however, in that element it does make up for in terms of Sam Raimi esque slapstick splatter. As usual. I went to the BBFC Notes and they say that it features scenes featuring impalements, bludgeonings, shootings, repeated stabbings and significant bloodshed. People spontaneously combust, showering people and surroundings in blood and viscera. A man's corpse is seen oozing burns and melted skin after being burnt alive in a washing machine. And characters are often covered in blood and wearing bloodied clothing. So it's nasty, but crucially it's not nasty nasty. It's nice nasty. It's a, it, it may be a top end 15, but it is a 15 certificate. It is a big bucket of blood drenched popcorn. At the center of it you've got this sister act which is very good. They're very good at doing the bickering sisters who are estranged, but they love each other, but they hate each other. But they each other but they hate each other and they can work together and they can't work together. Sarah Michelle Geller absolutely relishes the chance to do some. You remember in Cruel Intentions when she was doing that kind of, you know, the nasty arch, the wicked character. Well, she's kind of back in that mold. And I saw this first thing on a, on a Tuesday morning and I had a very, very long Sunday night into Monday and all the Oscars stuff and blah de blah. And I saw this first thing on a Tuesday morning and I laughed out loud on several occasions as many other members of the audience. And I thought, yep, this is, this is good Friday night bucket of bloody popcorn fare. Because it, even if you haven't seen the original, you kind of figure it out from the beginning because the beginning sets it up pretty well. And then it just, it just romps along and I enjoy. Again, it's not reinventing the wheel, but it's it is, it is honest in what it is doing and it does it rather well. And I had a really good time with it.

[Simon Mayo]

It sounds as though Ready or Not three, there I went, or whatever it is, is going to be nailed on.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, it's interesting because the end of the film is an end, but it does also. I can imagine, I can imagine sitting down with an executive for 20 minutes and them explaining that, okay, well, we are now in a very, very interesting position. So this is what happens in Ready or Not three, you know, so, yes,

[Simon Mayo]

we'll just unpick that just a little bit and then we can carry on. Yeah, for as long as we want to. Now, we've been asking for your bits and pieces. If you have a cinema or cinematic adjacent thing going on near you and you want to plug it, then tell us about it by sending a voice note to correspondence.com for example, this one.

[Mark Kermode]

Hi, Simon and Mark, this is Christian from the Ramsgate International Film and TV Festival.

[Simon Mayo]

It's happening in Ramsgate, Ken. It's going on for four days.

[Mark Kermode]

It's got hundreds of films across five

[Simon Mayo]

venues where we're going to get loads of films across the globe as well

[Mark Kermode]

as a great local focus. We think it's a great time for you and your audience to see. It happens around the Easter holidays. So what better time to do, if you've got time off top.

[Simon Mayo]

Enthusiastic. Doing a very, very. Yeah, giving an impression of someone who might be a podcast executive. I think with that level of enthusiasm and encouragement.

[Mark Kermode]

Absolutely on it. Absolutely hyped for it.

[Simon Mayo]

So the information is at ramsgate iftv fest.org 26th to 29th March. Christian, good levels of, of encouragement there. You can also send us a video, by the way. So I, being an old audio person, I said voice note, but if you want to film yourself, then obviously we can include that because there's lots of filming going on. So Christian did that one. Chris has sent this one. Hi Mark and Simon. My name is Chris Ascom and I wanted to give a shout out about my new comic. Popcorn is a 44 page comic book collection of movie moments adapted to comic strip form. You'll find the likes of the Warriors, Jaws, Eraserhead, Planet of the Apes and many, many more. You can find out more details on my Etsy store by searching Chris Askham. Thank you and love the show, Steve. All right, Chris. Very good, very good. And those consistent, those titles that you

[Mark Kermode]

cited are all films that I like. So that's, that's a good selection of movies.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. We've got lots of information for you. Here is. Here's Bella with the next one.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Hi, Simon and Mark. This is Bella Madge, an autistic film critic. On 12th April at 7pm, me and my fellow neurodivergent co hosts, the Independent's chief film critic, Clarissa Lofre, and curator and critic Lillian Crawford, are going to be hosting a virtual quiz night in support of Autism Awareness Month. To get your email ticket, you just need to give any donation and all of your donations will go to the National Autistic Society. The relevant link can be found on my Instagram, which is ellawatchesfilms. And there will be lots of fun and even some prizes. Thank you for your time.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you. Bella says 12th of April at 7pm and it's at. Ella watches films all one word. If you want to have a look at her Instagram page. And we're not done yet because here comes Kirsty.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Hi, Simon and Mark. This is Kirsty Pentecost from Oscar Bright Film Festival.

[Mark Kermode]

Oscar Bright is the world's leading festival

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

for films made by or featuring learning disabled or autistic people. The 2026 festival is screening more than 100 films between March 28 and and April 2 across five venues in Brighton. Find out more at Oscar bright.org so

[Simon Mayo]

that's Oscar bright.org and can I. I just like to observe that Kirsty Pentecost is the greatest name. Imagine having Pentecost as your son, unless that's a showbiz name and Kirsty is all spangly and everything. But anyway, Kirsty Pentecost, you would. She's a star, isn't she? She's going to be in a movie

[Mark Kermode]

or something, I think. Think that sounds like a detective name. Yes, Kirsty Pentecost. The police can't solve the case, but Kirsty Pentecost can because she can see things that. That they can't see.

[Simon Mayo]

How does she manage to do that?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, just that, like it sort of got gifts. Yeah. Or maybe just like, you know, attention to detail that they miss or some kind of intuition. Some. Some hunch. Because the Pentecost thing, you know, it's. There's a. There's a element of something.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. There's vibes. I think she's getting vibes Vi and from like her spiritual thing. And she goes into a room and she reads the room and she can tell that whether it's a happy room or an unhappy room. Yeah. And that way she can work out where the crime happened.

[Mark Kermode]

How brilliant that those film festivals are happening and how. And I love this section of the show. This is very good public service broadcasting. Once again, thank you.

[Simon Mayo]

And send your voice notes. That's fine. Or video clips where possible. Possible, because we do like to see your cheeky little faces. Okay, so last week, a little Ryan Gosling moment with Mark because I was eating pastries in Scandinavia. But what if. It was a fascinating conversation. Really, really interesting. Everybody who meets Ryan Gosling does seem to come away thinking, what a top bloke.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, he. He is a very, very top bloke. And I started the interview by saying, this is Project Hail Mary, which is his new film, which is in cinemas. I started by saying, I just have to say I absolutely loved it, and particularly right now, that's a very good thing to do. So there's no element of surprise to this. I've already told Ryan Gosling that I like the movie very much, and I didn't say that to be nice to him. I ended up doing the interview partly because I enjoyed the film so much and partly because you were in Copenhagen. So this is an adaptation of a 2021 novel by Martian author Andy Weir. Now, I know you have read Andy Weir's work, haven't you?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, and read this book and interviewed Andy as well.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. So this was apparently optioned at Galley stage with Ryan Gosling in the driver's seat, not just as a star, but as somebody driving the project. And if you heard my interview, you'll know that this is very much his kind of, you know, his labor of love. And he described it as the greatest challenge of his career. I know that filmmaker, filmmakers often say, well, this movie is the greatest challenge of my career. I think Ryan Gosling did actually think that. That this genuinely was. So. He plays Dr. Ryland Grace, who is a character who we meet waking up from hypersleep in a deep space vessel in which he is, A, the only survivor, and B, has no memory of how he got there or who he is or what's going on. Gradually, through flashbacks, because the film plays out in two different time structures, the plot is revealed that he was a schoolteacher enlisted by a space agency to help them address a potentially world ending problem, which is this mysterious phenomenon of a kind of interstellar cloud, some entity that seems to be feeding on stars. And the star that is next on the menu is the sun. Crucially, he is not an astronaut. He is an astronaut, but under the guidance of Sandra Huller's Eva Stratton. She's one of These space agency boffins, he has somehow ended up as a crucial part of this mission that at the beginning, he has no knowledge of. So the film then cuts back and forth between the past, in which Grace and the strangely non communicative Eva Strat develop a relationship and work out what they're going to do about this potentially world ending problem, and the present, in which our central character meets and attempts to communicate with an alien life form who he names Rocky. And he names him Rocky because he looks like a pile of rocks or a rock crab or a rock spider. So very early on in that relationship, they have to develop a way of communicating through language. And he starts to realize that certain gestures that Rocky is making, okay, they mean this thing, certain noises mean this thing. And he gets a laptop and he starts developing a translation thing. And then he says, okay, well, let's give the translation a voice. So let's give Rocky a voice. Here is a clip.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Why is a school teacher in space? Questions?

[Simon Mayo]

No, don't like that voice. Cannot hear it.

[Mark Kermode]

Really scary. Let's try this.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Ooh.

[Mark Kermode]

Why is this school teacher? No need to even continue. Good. Nope.

[Stephen Graham]

Why is a school teacher in space?

[Mark Kermode]

What's so funny question. Why is a school teacher in space?

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, it has charm, but no.

[Mark Kermode]

Why is a school teacher in space? I don't think so.

[Advertisement/Guest Voice]

Why is a school teacher in space?

[Simon Mayo]

That's not bad.

[Mark Kermode]

I like. All right.

[Stephen Graham]

And in answer to your question, I

[Mark Kermode]

have no idea what I'm doing in space. I don't remember. I think that's fun. I think that's. It's a really sweet clip. And in a way, that clip is kind of a touchstone for me for what happens tonally for the rest of the film. So the film's directed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who were best known for things like Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs and the Lego Movie. Obviously a lot of animation, but also for directing the 21 Jump street movies. They have amazing visual panache. I saw Project Hail Mary in imax. I knew nothing about it at all except for the start time and the fact that it was on imax. And. And, you know, I. I was visually very, very impressed by it. But they also have a kind of track record in. In making movies about unlikely friendships, which is what this. This is about. Indeed, I read an interview with them in which. And I said this to. To Ryan Gosling. They had described Project Hail Mary as a film that raises the question of, can men have friends? To which the answer is yes, but only if the fate of all humanity is at stake, which I thought was very good. So, like the Martian, it's a very human tale of life in outer space. But for me, the greatest touchstone is Silent Running. Now, I know that I turn to silent running all the time, but it is a really influential movie. Silent Running is this film in which Bruce Dern's character is cast adrift in space with only these robot companions, these small, like, little drone companions. That film was based, it was, it was taglined, the loneliest adventure of all. And crucially, in it, the loneliness is emphasized by the fact that the drones don't have faces, they don't have voices, they don't have eyes. They're things onto which he has to project this relationship. And that thing about the loneliness of space is one of the real touchstones about why interstellar stories are interesting. And of course, Ryan Gosling has done this before in first man, which really lent into the idea of loneliness. I remember when I was reviewing First Man, I compared it to the Ninth Configuration, the film in which the central astronaut character is asked, why won't you go to space? And he says, because if there is no God, then dying in space is really, really alone. And so you've got this thing here about this connection between this person who really, really needs to make a connection, but has found it very, very difficult to do so. Certainly in the scenes on Earth, there's a lot of stuff going on there about how difficult it is to. To make friends and make connections. And also the other interesting connection between this and Silent Running is that this doesn't actually make a lot of sense in some ways. When I was waiting to do the interview with Ryan Gosling, Brian Cox was there in the waiting room, right, because he was going to do an interview. And I said, brian, just tell me, how does the science of this stack up? And he said, well, actually, it's not bad. It's not bad at all. Well, I'm sure that in terms of the sort of astrophysics of it, it's. It isn't. But Ryan Gosling's character meets an alien character who doesn't have a face, has a voice that he can't understand, and looks like a pile of rocks. And in almost no time at all, he develops software that allows them to talk to each other in a very, very kind of rom com odd couple, you know, back and forth way, which I don't believe for one minute would happen that fast. But the point is, it doesn't matter. Silent Running makes no sense. Why Are they? Why? Why are they. Why don't they just put the domes into orbit and leave them there? Why is it that a botanist doesn't understand that the fact that there's no sunlight is the problem? Why is there gravity on the ship when even when he's doing the spacewalk? None of those things make any sense. And I remember asking Doug Crumble about them.

[Simon Mayo]

It's a centrifuge.

[Mark Kermode]

No, it's not. In silent running. In silent running, it isn't. In the case of they didn't do that. No. In the case of this, it is a centrifuge. What I'm saying is silent running makes no scientific sense, but it doesn't matter because it makes emotional sense. And dogs. Trumbull agreed with that. In the case of this, there's a lot of it that does make scientific sense, but there's also a lot of it that doesn't, specifically the setting up the communication tool. But it doesn't matter because it's not about that. What it is about is about the friendship. And in order for that friendship to be dramatized, they have to be able to talk in a way that is. That has developed much faster than it would be actually possible to develop translation software. Okay? And I think that what's crucial there for. For. Is that it is a big, spectacular science fiction movie, but it's really about friendship. And it. It's as Ryan Gosling said when he was doing the interview, that James Ortiz, who was the puppeteer, ended up doing the voice of Rocky because they were working together, doing the. Doing the rehearsal stuff because of the moving of the puppets, and James Ortiz was giving him the lines, and they realized, okay, fine, actually, that is the relationship. And just as Bruce Dern made a very human connection with the drones, who, of course, in silent running, are actually played by actors, There are actors inside those suits, like Cheryl Sparks, for example. So here, Ryan Gosling clearly developed a similar relationship with James Ortiz. And therefore, there is real humor and real pathos and real humanity in those relationships, which is something that you wouldn't get if, for example, they'd done Rocky as a cg. If they'd done it. Okay, we'll do it in post. In the meantime, you're just speaking to again, as he said, a tennis ball on the end of a stick. The fact that it's puppetry is really, really important. Now, the source novel may be from the hard science fiction movement, as it's called, in which, you know, everything is very, very scientific, but the film is pure fantasia. But that's fine because it's not about space.

[Stephen Graham]

It's about.

[Mark Kermode]

About matters that are much more down to Earth. You could say the same about Interstellar, which only makes sense, really, as a sentimental romance rather than a space epic. And also that began life with Chris Nolan asking Hans Zimmer to write him a piece of music about a father's love for his child. And then having heard that, he said, okay, well, I might make the movie then, because now I have to. Because you've done that theme. The other thing that's important to say is that Sandra Hula is the most brilliant piece of casting. It is an absolutely fantastic piece of casting because. Because she has exactly the right level of brittleness and awkwardness that establishes the thing about. Whilst out in space, he is finding a way of communicating with a pile of rocks down on Earth, he is finding a way of communicating with somebody who has absolutely no way of kind of connecting emotionally because they appear to be just so tied up in the. In just the sheer mechanics and science and practicalities of, look, we have to do this, otherwise the whole world is going to end. So I really, really enjoyed the movie. I thought it was, yes, ridiculous, but emotionally, absolutely on point. And right now a big blockbuster movie about beings from totally alien cultures coming together to work together to save the world from obliteration is something that I think we need. And a film like this, that, that Heather who works on the, on this show sent me a message after she'd seen it. She said, I skipped out of the screening and that is exactly what I did.

[Simon Mayo]

The. Now I haven't, I haven't seen the film yet and I, but I certainly intend to. But I have, I have read the book and I'm listening to the audiobook at the moment. And the one thing that Andy Weir manages to do is because he's, he writes in a funny story style.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

He makes, he makes you laugh. The science is somehow more understandable. You mentioned Interstellar.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

When they were explaining the, the science. You've, you've, you've lost me. I'll just, I'll just go with it. But the way Andy Weir brings in a kind of a sarcastic, you know, Ryan Gosling character in, just makes it more easy to consume. It's like bite, like bite sized chunks and I kind of get it. And the only point I would make, again, as I haven't seen the film, you were talking about the translation software, the technological advances that mankind has to get through to send a spaceship to a different solar system with A completely new type of fuel called autophagy. Astrophage means that I would think the translation software is, is fine. And because they've never made a spaceship like this, it's so astonishingly different that maybe finding the translation software is like a small.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, okay, well, I, yeah, I would agree. I, I, I, it was, it's the one thing that didn't ring true to me. It was, it just happened too fast. It just, we went from it's a rock tapping on a piece of glass to they are literally talking like the odd couple. But I don't.

[Simon Mayo]

So maybe, maybe because the book is like a 14, 15 hour trek, by the time you get to that bit, you've been with it for eight hours. And so if you're going, fine, okay, I'm up to speed, sure.

[Mark Kermode]

But the, but the crucial thing, and I cannot overstate this, is it doesn't matter. To me, it absolutely doesn't matter because it's not about that. Because it's just like I don't care how you do it. And again, there's a conversation I had with Doug Trumbull in which I said, how come there is gravity when he's walking on the thing? And Doug Trumbull said, He said, yeah, I thought about it. I thought about putting in a line about let's turn on the gravity machine. But then I just couldn't be bothered because it's not about that. And I think that this is the thing. This gets you in the feels. It's the emotional thing about it is what's important. It is the silent running, the loneliest journey of all. It is the ninth configuration. You know, why won't you go into space? It is the. Can men be? Can men have friends? Yes, but only if the future of all humanity depends on it. And those things just speak to me.

[Simon Mayo]

That's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor is Simon Paul. If you're not not following the pod already, for heaven's sake do so wherever you get your podcast, come and join us on Patreon for all the fabulous and juicy stuff. Mark, what is your film of the week project?

[Mark Kermode]

Hail Mary.

[Simon Mayo]

We will be back next week. Also, there'll be other takes dropping all over the place. I have to bestow years ultra membership. Let's give it to the beer man, Rob White from the Hop She Shed in Worcester.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, that was a great email. That was a great email.

[Simon Mayo]

How accurate? Mother's Pride actually is when it comes to brewing.

[Mark Kermode]

Excellent, Rob.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you very much indeed. If you want to get in touch with the show, you know where it is. Correspondenceobertamer.com.

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