John Waters: “I’m so respectable I could puke”

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take – April 16, 2026
Episode Focus: John Waters, “I’m so respectable I could puke”

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Episode Overview

This episode revolves around cult filmmaker John Waters—his journey from counterculture pariah to mainstream “national treasure”—and the changing status of “trash cinema,” plus the regular roundup of film reviews, viewing recommendations, and cheerful musings from Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo. The duo discuss new releases (notably Glen Rothen, Rebuilding, and The Wizard of the Kremlin), reflect on film’s power as a “sacred space,” read listener correspondence, and pepper the episode with wry banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter – Spheres of Influence (02:55–08:06)

• Mark and Simon riff on which cultural “sphere” their podcast occupies, contrasting the so-called “manosphere” and “dither sphere.”
• They distance themselves from the “lad mag” era, critiquing its nastier side:
  • “There was a really nasty side to it. Let us not forget... one of those lad mags published an advice column... who advised somebody... that if they cut their girlfriend’s face, no one else would want them... That was the ‘just a joke, love’ age.” — Mark (05:35)
• Conclusion: Mark and Simon claim the “dither sphere”—occupied by those who embrace moderation and avoid laddish excess.

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2. What’s New This Week? (08:15–29:17)

Glen Rothen Review (16:00–26:18)

• Mark reviews Brian Cox’s feature directorial debut, a sentimental Scottish family drama about distillery owners, estranged siblings, and reconciliations.
• The film is described as “a love letter to Scotland”—“solidly soppy, sentimental fare... goes down nicely with a cup of tea and a biscuit, Mrs.” — Mark (25:14)
• While critics expected “something tougher-edged,” Mark finds the film affectionately soft, even if formulaic, and feels Cox "has earned the right" to direct this kind of movie.

Listener Emails (11:18–15:48)

• Standout: Josie shares her experience at a parent-and-baby screening at the Barbican—accommodating, thoughtfully organized, and only £6.
• “The babies and parents were brilliantly well-behaved and it was genuinely lovely to watch Ryan and Rocky’s intergalactic friendship unfold in a room full of other tired but film-loving families.” — Josie (14:10)
• Mark and Simon sing the praises of subtitles (“There should be subtitles in everything!”), and Simon shares that his motto is “nil desperandum” (15:19).

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3. Interview: John Waters – “I’m so respectable I could puke” (30:40–55:50)

Trash Cinema & the BFI Season (30:41–53:34)

• Waters reflects on the BFI Trash Cinema season, and on making films like Pink Flamingos and Multiple Maniacs:
  • “You can expect a good time, no pretension, and looking back on a time that’s very hard to imagine because in some ways it’s incredibly politically incorrect, but it’s so ludicrous that all you can do is marvel.” — John Waters (30:48)
• On the origins of “trash”:
  • “Many of these films... were not meant to be funny in any way. They were real exploitation films, not in art theatres... They wanted gore, they wanted sex... they were not made to be ironic.” — John Waters (31:31)
• Discussion of cult followings and midnight screenings:
  • “Midnight movies was the only place these kind of moviegoers could hook up. And everybody came stoned... people yelling out, the audience dressed as the costumes...” — John Waters (35:51)
• Waters notes the evolution of “camp” and argues cult movies don’t come from trying too hard:
  • “If you are trying to make a cult movie, it almost always fails... The greatest ones, like Ed Wood, he didn’t think he was being funny.” (36:46)
• His unlikely establishment embrace: “I’m so respectable I could puke... Criterion releases them, all the class possible accolades have been given to me. I take that with great honor.” (39:18) — John Waters

Reflections on Subversiveness and Political Correctness (49:51–53:34)

• Waters expresses weariness with both extremes of left and right, situating himself in the “radical middle”:
  • “I hate the extreme left and the extreme right. I’m in the radical middle right now... neither the right or the left have any humor.” (50:27)
  • “I believe in freedom of speech... We have to put up with the worst of free speech to have free speech. Just don’t go. Don’t listen to it.” (51:05)
• On cultural change:
  • “Liberals now have more rules than my parents did.” (51:49)
• Waters’s favorite cult film: “Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!” which he blurbed as “not only is it the best movie ever made, it’s the best movie that ever will be made.” (53:06)

Mark & Simon React (54:03–55:50)

• Mark respects Waters’ subversive ethos but disagrees on the “shouting fire in a crowded theater” point.
• Anecdote: Waters once told Mark, “Oh, don’t be ridiculous” when Mark objected to a notorious Pink Flamingos scene involving a chicken; “To you, I apologize. Everyone else can kiss my butt.” (55:31)

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4. Film Reviews

Rebuilding (56:01–61:48)

• Mark praises this “beautifully low-key, restorative neo-western drama” set in wildfire-ravaged Colorado:
  • “It’s quiet advocacy of endurance and friendship and kindness... really made me feel uplifted.” (58:52)
  • “Boring title, uninspiring premise, but the film is neither of those things.” (61:35)
• Film of the Week: Rebuilding

The Wizard of the Kremlin (68:40–75:49)

• French political thriller, with Jude Law as Vladimir Putin; Mark is surprised but impressed:
  • “Despite the fact that Jude Law looks nothing like Putin, he absolutely gets the physical gestures spot on... The physicality—honestly, it’s remarkable.” (73:32)
• Paul Dano’s performance as Vadim Baranov is described as disappointingly “one dimensional.”
• Mark laments the film’s inertness, but says Jude Law is reason enough to watch.

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5. Communal Cinema as Sacred Space (65:47–68:37)

• Listener Alison shares a Church Times article about cinema as a “place of sacred encounter.”
• Mark agrees: “Cinema is the place of communal worship... you always go in with a sense of expectation. As a critic, if you ever lost that, you should stop.” (67:10)

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6. Notable Listener Correspondence

• Josie (parent-and-baby cinema): wins Correspondent of the Week and a year’s Ultra membership (77:25).
• Alison Tsang (cinema as sacred space)
• Other references to Brian Cox, John Waters favorites, and local theatre recommendations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’m so respectable I could puke.” — John Waters (39:18)
• “There was a really nasty side to it [lad mag culture]... one of those lad mags published an advice column... if they cut their girlfriend’s face, no one else would want them.” — Mark (05:35)
• “It is solidly soppy sentimental fare... goes down nicely with a cup of tea and a biscuit.” — Mark on Glen Rothen (25:14)
• “If you are trying to make a cult movie, it almost always fails... The greatest ones, like Ed Wood, didn’t think he was being funny.” — John Waters (36:46)
• “Liberals now have more rules than my parents did.” — John Waters (51:49)
• “The cinema is the place of communal worship... you always go in with a sense of expectation. As a critic, if you ever lost that, you should stop.” — Mark (67:10)
• “Despite the fact that Jude Law looks nothing like Putin, he absolutely gets the physical gestures spot on.” — Mark on The Wizard of the Kremlin (73:32)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:55 – “Spheres” banter (“dither sphere” defined)
• 16:00–26:18 – Glen Rothen review
• 30:40–53:34 – John Waters interview (Trash Cinema, BFI season, cult movies)
• 54:03–55:50 – Mark & Simon’s reactions to Waters’ provocations
• 56:01–61:48 – Rebuilding (Film of the Week) review
• 68:40–75:49 – The Wizard of the Kremlin review
• 65:47–68:37 – Cinema as sacred space discussion

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Tone & Style

• The conversation flows with Kermode & Mayo’s signature blend of warmth, informed critique, generous humor, and unfussy intelligence.
• Waters brings irreverence, social insight, and gleeful disregard for convention, balanced by Mark’s and Simon’s moderate, reflective commentary.

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For New Listeners

• This episode showcases how the hosts blend film criticism, cultural commentary, interviews, and community engagement—all in a lively, sometimes mischievous, always approachable tone.
• The John Waters segments will resonate for those interested in the evolution of subversive cinema and the contradictions of mainstream acceptance.

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Film of the Week: Rebuilding
Correspondent of the Week: Josie (Parent-and-baby screening)

For more, see kermodeandmayo.com or subscribe for extra content.

Transcript

[A]

Now, Mark, you were telling me the other day about this Saily Esim app.

[B]

Which one was that?

[A]

Well, the one I just install on my phone before I go abroad so that I can save loads of money on roaming and data charges when I'm there.

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[A]

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[B]

Nope. There's no queuing at a dodgy airport kiosk. A Saily ESIM only needs to be installed once and then you use the same one for each country you visit.

[A]

Great. Does it let me skip all the other queues too?

[B]

Well, funnily enough, with Salee Ultra you can enjoy VIP travel perks like airport lounge access, fast track services, priority support, advanced online security and much more.

[A]

You'll be telling me we've got a voucher code next.

[B]

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[A]

Howdy, partner.

[B]

Hello, Simon Mayo.

[A]

I was just thinking the other day about the good old days.

[B]

What? The good old days in the Wild West. What's with the howdy partner thing?

[A]

Well, I was just thinking that when we started out in the radio. Yeah, we were lucky because we had each other to bounce off. But most people don't have that support from a partner when they're starting out in business and they can get overwhelmed easily.

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Sign up for your one pound per month trial today at shopify.co.uk take that's shopify.co.uk take.

[A]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[B]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[A]

and non film questions answered as best we can in questions you can get

[B]

all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[A]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer, now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. What do you think it would take, Mark? Hello.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

For this podcast to join the manosphere? And if we don't want to do that, what's the opposite? Okay, well, firstly, is the manosphere inherently. Does that mean inherently?

[B]

Yes, it does. Difficult. Yes. And stupid and stupid. Childish and feeble and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All the other things. So what?

[A]

So the opposite is what? The something sphere.

[B]

The.

[A]

The rest of the world sphere. Normal sphere.

[B]

I think you and I are part of the dads of sphere, aren't we?

[A]

I mean, effete. The effetosphere.

[B]

Is that what we are?

[A]

Is this. I think this is an effete podcast.

[B]

I don't know. Are you suggesting that we're low on testosterone?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's true.

[B]

No, I'm sure that is true.

[A]

What I mean is, if you're not part of that sphere, you've gotta be part of another sphere, haven't you? And I'm just wondering what sphere we're a part of.

[B]

Well, I had a friend at school whose motto was moderation in all things, and you said something like that you were a militant moderate.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I. So maybe we're part of the modusphere. I mean, we're mods. We're mods, Simon, the mod.

[A]

So the mod, it needs something. Extra syllables. It has to. Can't be the mod sphere. So the modisphere.

[B]

The modusphere. Yeah, we're part of them. They're part of the manosphere. And we're part of the modusphere.

[A]

Okay, all right, well, that'll. Unless someone else can come up with something better. The. A fetus fear doesn't really work, does it?

[B]

Really? No, no. Also, I mean, I don't know that we're. That we're effete.

[A]

No, I mean, I'm not.

[B]

Listen, I have no problem with that. I mean, I would, you know, I would. I would be very proud to be called a feat. I'm just not sure that I thought. I'm pulling it off very well.

[A]

Well, that's the kind of thing that you say if you're in the manosphere, Mark, and. Oh, sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, so maybe someone else can suggest what part of which sphere we're a

[B]

part of have you ever been in the manosphere?

[A]

Oh, I have always just hated all of it. Good going. Going back. I mean, we, we have touched on all this before, but when, you know, the lad mag thing was everywhere and loaded was the thing. It was just. I just found it repulsive from, from the word go. Because it, I guess this, you know, if you're, if you've never been one

[B]

of the lads,

[A]

then you always felt excluded by all of that. So that was, that was my take on it.

[B]

Also. There was a really nasty side to it. I mean, a really nasty side to it. And let us not forget that that was the era in which one of those lad mags published an advice column by a now much loved National Treasure celebrity who advised somebody who'd broken up with their girlfriend that if they cut their. If they cut their girlfriend's face, no one else would want them. I am not making this up. It's a matter of historical fact. That was the, the, you know, the, the jolly side of the. It's just a joke, love. Age of the lad mag.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, that's all gone. So we're not part of that. We're part of the other sphere. Whatever that sphere is in, we're part of the other sphere. And if the modest sphere is fine, because also it sounds like modest.

[B]

I always see the modest sphere. Yeah, that's very good.

[A]

Okay, so modest sphere. How about the dither sphere for now?

[B]

The dither sphere.

[A]

Oh, that sounds good.

[B]

We're just dithering around on the edges of things.

[A]

It sounds like a. Sounds like a village in Yorkshire.

[B]

Do you do this thing that if. Does the good lady professor her indoor good not. No, that's mine. Does the good lady ceramicist her indoors ever ask you to do any odd jobs around the house?

[A]

Not anymore, no.

[B]

Fine. Okay. Right.

[A]

I mean, occasionally she might try it. Like she might say, I've bought a shelf. Yes, I gotta have you. Good luck. There's a guy down. I. I have this, as I think many times before, DIY is scabbing. What you need to do is hire someone and pay them money because they're better at it than you are.

[B]

And was that Jeremy Hardy who said

[A]

it was Jeremy Hardy? Yes, the late Jeremy Hardy who said DIY scabbing, which is the perfect excuse for not doing.

[B]

And just to explain it. That's right. The reason DIY scabbing is it's taking work away from people whose employment is to put up your shelf scabbard is

[A]

not really something that you hear a lot of these Days, is it? But someone who was like a strike breaker, who.

[B]

Is that not a word that's used anymore?

[A]

I don't think so. Do you hear it? I mean, industrial relations and all that kind of stuff.

[B]

I mean it used to be the most, you know, egregious insult. If you. If that word was like really loaded, wasn't it? Yeah.

[A]

If you were working when there was a strike, all that kind of stuff. So therefore, when Jeremy Hardy, who was very much a man of the old left, said it, everybody knew exactly what

[B]

he was talking about.

[A]

And it is of course the perfect excuse for being part of the dither sphere.

[B]

I think that's what we are. I think with the dithers fear, I'm going to live with that.

[A]

Okay. Correspondenceobenameo.com if you can come up with something better. What are you going to be doing professionally speaking in this podcast?

[B]

I'm going to be dithering around some films. Simon wizard of the Kremlin Rebuilding, which is a. Which stars Josh o'. Connor. I mean, if only he could get more work. He just.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You go to the.

[A]

When I went to the cinema the other day to see Project Hail Mary, you know, all the trailers come up. He's in all of them.

[B]

I know, I know. He is the hardest working man in show business. And Glen Rothen, which is the new film by Brian Cox, who of course you interviewed on a previous show.

[A]

Yes. Although in a. In a Christopher Nolan kind of. Kind of way. I haven't done that yet.

[B]

No. So just to explain because. Because this is a pre recorded show because Simon and I are currently off there, if you're. Last week you will have heard Simon interviewing Brian Cox. He hasn't done that interview yet.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And. But it has already gone out. At which point he will have seen the film. So when we get to talking about Glen Rothen, which I've seen, but I haven't heard the Brian Cox interview, which went out last week because it hasn't happened yet.

[A]

Hasn't happened yet.

[B]

Yeah. Simon won't be able to comment on my review of Glen Rothen because I

[A]

haven't seen it yet.

[B]

Because he hasn't seen it yet. Although he's already interviewed Brian Cox, which has gone out when he had seen it.

[A]

So if. So basically, if you could listen to these takes backwards in a Christopher Nolan kind of way, everything will make sense. Going forwards, not so much. Also, we have a special guest who is the legendary John Waters, which you've done.

[B]

Yes, I've done the interview with John Waters. There is a trash season at the bfi. And John Waters, who started off in very, very outrageous independent movies like Pink Flamingos and Multiple Maniacs, then went on to make Hairspray, which was then stage show and then a remake film, he's now now considered to be a national treasure and celebrated son of Baltimore. So, yeah, I'll be talking to John

[A]

Waters and reviews in take two. What's going on there?

[B]

Two reissues. There is an anniversary reissue of Bridget Jones's Diary. Just take a punt on how old Bridget Jones's Diary is now. Simon is.

[A]

It must be half a century, I'd say.

[B]

No, 25 years. Not half a century. 25 years. And Akira is back in cinemas, apparently also in IMAX cinemas.

[A]

And in take two, you get even more of the good stuff, including the Five Question Film Club.

[B]

Three questions, you, Majesty, in which ultras

[A]

get to vote on which film available on streaming they'd like an intro to. And Mark ignores it and does what he wants. And in one frame back, the feature that gives you extended viewing for a weekly cinematic release of our interview of the legendary John Waters. We've been asking you for your favorite John Waters film, so head on over to our patreon if you'd like to join the club. Plus all the other top quality content ad free and in video and high def video, which I really don't like. Also questions in which we answer the question, what TV show would you love to see on the big screen? The emails to correspondencecodemo.com this one from James Morell.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Vanguardista. Dear Rocky the punchy one and Rocky the alien one. You've been discussing quotes from modern films that will pass the test of time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which you have, which is amazing.

[B]

Maze Amaze was the one that we think.

[A]

Yes, that's right. Yeah. As a longtime disciple to the Church of the Witter, every time it's brought up, I find myself involuntary articulating my answer. I've used it so many times in my professional life, in my personal life, particularly recently, when things certainly haven't been. You say it trippingly. Would that it were so simple.

[B]

Yes, very good.

[A]

It has become my words to live by with everything going on. Would that it were so simple. And the more I thought about this email from James, the more I thought he's absolutely onto something. Because so many of them. I'll try not to go off on one, but go on. So many of the problems that are out there are made by people who have reduced everything to a level of simplicity that is moronic.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I read yesterday this is a piece by Tom Friedman in the New York Times. He talked about a thing called a wicked problem. Have you heard of what?

[C]

No.

[A]

A wicked problem is defined as a problem that resists quick fixes or permanent solutions. The outcomes are never final. There are just better or worse outcomes. There is no perfect pre existing template for solving it. In other words, like the Middle east for example. All of that kind of stuff. So when you hear people taking a hugely complex issue and making it simple, it's just not true. So as James says, would that it were so simple, but it's not. And so therefore.

[B]

Anyway, there you go. Actually, I'm amazed that when we were having the conversation about which modern lines will stick around, that didn't. That wasn't one of them because there was a. There was weeks, months. Months that we were repeating. Would that it was so simple. Trippingly. Would that it was.

[A]

It is fantastic.

[B]

It is absolutely. Come sit with me on the divine. I love that scene. I love that film. Actually. That whole film is great.

[A]

Josie in southwest London thank you for your wonderful witterings over the years. I've been listening since my teens and I'm now in my 30s. A lot has changed but you've been a constant companion. My husband and I are recent new parents. Congratulations. So cinema trips have become complicated but we recently went to a parent and baby screening of Project Hail Mary at the Barbican in East London and had the most wonderful experience. Before the film, a pre recorded message from one of the Barbican's film curators explained all the baby friendly accommodations, a box of emergency supplies, a cozy baby nest subtitles so you can follow the plot over the crying. And gently raised, which I think you just need anyway. And gently raised lights so people can move around easily. They truly thought of everything. And tickets were six quid.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The 10:45am Saturday slot would once have felt bizarre but post baby it made perfect sense. The babies and parents were brilliantly well behaved and it was genuinely lovely to watch Ryan and Rocky's intergalactic friendship unfold in a room full of other tired but film loving families. A wonderful experience and a heartfelt shout out to the Barbican new parents. It's highly recommended. Keep up the good work and see when the cruise stops in tooting. Okay, that's very good. So a whole number of things on there. So that's a movie in the heart of London for six quid.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

That is astonishing. And I think there should be subtitles and everything I've got used. We put subtitles and everything, as I think I've mentioned to you before. It's because child one just used to eat crisps very loudly and so we'd have subtitles on just so we could hear what's being said. But because there's so much, there's usually quite a racket going on. I think subtitles would be very good. So, Josie, thank you very much indeed. I like that very much.

[B]

Can I just remind you once again, as I do every. Whenever this comes up, that Emma Freud on social media, you know, people have little descriptions of, you know, who they are. Like, I think yours is. I don't know what yours is, but, you know, writer. Mine is like bassist or whatever.

[A]

Mine just says nil desperandum.

[B]

I think. Nil desperandum.

[A]

That's what you mean.

[B]

Yours is nil desperandum, which means Simon.

[A]

Well, don't despair, really.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Which is a wonderful thing. Emma Freud's social media tag is Bit tired. Yeah, always loved that.

[A]

Kind of. And David Badills just says Jew.

[B]

That's right, yes.

[A]

Which is. Which is. Which is fantastic. Anyway. CorrespondenceVinemo.com Tell us something that's out that I haven't seen, even though I have interviewed Brian Cox having seen it.

[B]

Having seen it. Yes. So the timey why Me thing, Glen Rothen, which is the feature directorial debut from Brian Cox. The interview was on a previous show, I think was last week's show. Go back and listen to it, which I will do when it actually happens.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I.

[A]

And I really. I have an informed opinion about the film then.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So Brian Cox also stars in the film as Sandy, owner of a family whiskey distillery in Scotland. So he runs the distillery with the help of Shirley Henderson's Jess, who is now in charge of all matters distilling. Alan Cumming is his estranged brother Donald, who went to Chicago many moons decades ago and hasn't been back. In fact, he didn't even come back for his father's funeral. Donald is a blues expert. He runs a jazz club where his daughter Amy, played by Alexandra Shipp, tends bar and also sings. And he has no desire to go back to Scotland until two things happen. Firstly, his bar burns down and secondly, he gets a letter from his brother, played by Brian Cox, implying that he's not in the greatest health and pretty much begging him to come and visit. Here is a clip from the trailer.

[A]

Your native land.

[C]

Nice to have you back, Donald.

[B]

Sure. Moee brother.

[A]

It's been nearly 40 years since you left for America.

[B]

So you came then. Did you have to march him to the airport at gunpoint?

[A]

I don't know what happened happen between you two. This is a great opportunity for you

[C]

guys to clean all this up.

[A]

You were missed at his funeral. He never missed me, but I did.

[B]

I've decided to resign as chairman of the distillery. My brother will take over the reigns.

[C]

What?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is not what he was expecting. So the film's written by David Ashton, with whom Brian Cox had previously worked on the radio series McClavy. And is it McClavy or McClevey? I think it's McClavy, isn't it? Anyway, he also has a small role in the film. Brian Cox has described the film, and as I said, you haven't done the interview yet, but you will have done by the time this goes out. And I imagine that he will have used this phrase, because he's used it quite a lot, that it is a love letter to Scotland. Now, that phrase tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Glen Rothen. We've been talking about Brian Cox recently because we were talking about Silence of the Lambs and Manhunter, and, you know, throughout his career, Brian Cox has played plenty of very dark characters. So, you know, whether it's Titus on stage or whether it's doing the definitive Hannibal Lecter in Manhunter, as we know,

[A]

well, you know, the best opinions differ.

[B]

Or the predatory Big John in Lie, which is a very controversial movie. As I said, Brian Cox's agent said, you can't take that role on.

[A]

It's.

[B]

You know, it's too dark. He played Herman Goering in Nuremberg in the series of that. And of course, most famously recently, he was the tyrannical Logan Roy in succession, a character who became so sort of associated with Brian Cox in the public eye that people would apparently go up to Brian Cox and ask him to tell them to F off, which Brian Cox would then oblige. So the thing about it is, with all of those characters, it is impossible to imagine any of those characters writing a love letter to anything. In fact, you know, it would be poison pen letters all the way. Even when you take into account the fact that. I mean, I've. I've interviewed Brian Cox quite a few times and I. I did some stuff when his autobiography came out. It's a very good autobiography. He talks about the fact that if you're going to play a dark character, an evil character, wicked character, what you have to do is find the point of entry, because everybody started as a child and everybody's path to who they became. You know, people aren't just born wicked. That's not how it works. In fact, you know, we talked for a while about the fact that, you know, a colleague of his had ended up playing Mango Mussolini recently. And he said the problem is it's a two dimensional character and that's, there's, you know, there's no way in. So as far as this is concerned, there is, there is, there is no struggle in playing Sandy. You don't have to sort of dig deep to find the goodness in Sandy. It's like, it's funny because listening to that clip, it sounded to me a little bit like when he says the thing about, oh, did you know, did you have to take him, drag him from the airport? Which sounded exactly like Fulton Mackay in, you know, in, in, in Local Hero. Everything about the delivery, everything about the sort of, the slightly sardonic tone of it, but you also know that that's a, that's a good as gold, salt of the earth character. So Sandy is that guy. Sandy is the guy who stayed there, who's looked after the brother, who's staying, looked after the family business after Donald flew off to the States, even though Donald has reasons of his own for having fleeing. And we learn of these reasons through pretty sort of straightforward, join the dots filmmaking technique of flashbacks. We, you know, we see flashbacks from their younger years. We see, we see the adult characters looking around at the estate and then seeing their past lives. We see Donald's mother telling him to go, to go and not come back to it, to get away from this, you know, this village. We hear the voice of his dominating father telling him to never show your face again. And we hear Jess talking about her own abandonment by the person that she thought she was closest to, who then left her without saying goodbye. So, you know, that there was, there's some thing in the past, but it's never, it's never a big mystery of what it is. And as I said, actually the ways in which the film explains to you what it is is pretty bald. It is that thing about here's a. Somebody looks off screen and here's a flashback to the thing. So now he's back. And in time honored tradition, because he's back, they're going to face the past, they're going to heal old wounds, they're going to make new futures. There is nothing surprising about the narrative, which is a kind of cross between Local hero and mother's pride. And if you remember, when I was reviewing Mother's Pride. I said to you that a colleague of mine had left early because they needed to get in the queue for a screening of Amaze, Amaze, Amaze. And as a result of it they'd only watch like the first 20 minutes of Mother's Pride and then they'd gone off. But they were still able to pretty much tell me every single thing that happened in Mother's Bride after that. Yeah, the same is true of Glen Rothen. There is nothing in Glen Rothen that you're going to go, well I hadn't seen that coming. Not least because the way in which, I mean it's interesting in a. Brian Cox has worked with a number of different directors and like really inventive and interesting directors but his own filmmaking style is really very unshowy. It's. It's like this is how, you know, I'd explain the drama in a way that is really, really, I mean bordering on clunky in terms of the absolute. There, there are going to be no, no gaps left here in any nuts and bolts.

[A]

Is that what you're.

[B]

Yes, it's nuts and bolts. But I mean I'm actually surprised by just how nuts and bolts it was. And you know, where is Logan Royce, you know, dripped acid into the ears of everyone who would listen. This is as soft hearted and as saccharine natured and as honeydew flavored. You remember the whole thing at the center of Mother's Ruin. Is that the beer that they make

[A]

you mean Mother's Pride?

[B]

Mother's Pride. I beg your pardon. What's Mother's Ruin is. Mother's Ruin is whiskey Gin. Mother's Ruin is gin. Yeah, Mother's Pride. Sorry, that's a Freudian slip for you. Freudian slip. When you say one thing but mean your mother. When you say one thing but mean your mother's pride that you remember the whole thing is that they make a beer that's got a sweet taste to it. Something to do with. Because they've. Because the guy's got the honey and they said there's like honey flavored beer. Well, this is like that. This is not whiskey galore. This is not whiskey sour. This is whiskey. Absolutely sweet as it comes. It is solidly soppy sentimental fare. And I think that probably explains why it is that, that it's one few fans among critics, most of whom I think expected something tougher edged from Cox. I have to say for me I feel kind of affectionately towards it and I. This is, I want to be completely clear about this, I've interviewed Brian Cox a number and I like him very much. I think he's an amazing actor. But when some, when somebody who has really made their name doing very challenging work makes something themselves and it's just as sweet as it could possibly be. I said, not just bordering on the saccharine, but absolutely embracing. It's a big warm hug of a movie that he has described as a love letter to Scotland that just basically wants, wants to go look at this landscape. Isn't it amazing? Look, wouldn't, you know, wouldn't you love to be here then? I think, well, fine. He's kind of earned the right to do it. I mean, it is, it is in the same bracket as Fisherman's Friends and Mother's Ruin, incidentally.

[A]

Mother's Pride.

[B]

Mother's Pride. I'm going to keep doing it. What was the other one that I kept doing that with? There was something else I kept doing it with and you had to keep correcting me. He's not even the best Jared in the movie.

[A]

Anyway.

[B]

There are, I've described movies in the past as, you know, goes down nicely with a cup of tea and a biscuit. Mrs. On a Wednesday afternoon. This is probably best viewed on a, you know, late in the evening on a big sofa with a roaring log fire and a member of your family snuggled up under a blanket and a large glass of Glenmorangie or something similar. I mean, it is no, it is no work of art. But as a kind of softer side of Brian Cox, I felt affectionate towards it. I mean, as a piece of filmmaking, as I said, it is surprisingly nuts and bolts and there are no surprises in terms of the narrative. But I kind of think Brian Cox has earned the right to give, you know, big, soft hearted. I love Scotland and wouldn't it be nice if we all just got along a little better?

[A]

Can I add a plate of shortbread, maybe?

[B]

A plate of shortbread? Yes. And maybe a Tunnex. Yes.

[A]

There was an April fool that I saw which had a. There was a Tunnex Easter egg which was like a two foot egg which was split in the middle exactly like a tennocks tea cake. And I assume it was an April fool because it was only out on April 1st, but it did look rather, rather tasty. Still to come after the break, Mark will be talking about the wizards. All right, I'll do it because you do it. Rebuilding the wizard of the Kremlin, plus his interview with John Waters and a public service announcement. The laughter lift will be Back again and we can only apologize. Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s.

[B]

You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself.

[A]

We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy.

[B]

Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse.

[A]

We investigate orgasm cults.

[B]

A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life.

[A]

And of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble.

[C]

My name is Molly McLaughlin.

[A]

I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims.

[C]

She was defrauding the elderly and her tagline was, the only thing I'm guilty of is being sha mazing.

[A]

Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous.

[B]

Don't sexy Lotharios often behave abominably towards women? Yes, but they don't always behead them or split from the Catholic Church. History's Greatest Fails is the show where

[A]

we find out why losers make history.

[B]

Hosted by me, Dan Jones, and me, Elizabeth Day.

[A]

We're old friends and fellow history graduates. And in this podcast, we're going to dig into failures of historical proportions. Listen to History's Greatest Fails on the this Is History podcast feed or watch on YouTube. Okay, Our guest today is the Pope of Trash. Cult filmmaker John Waters started out in the late 60s making low budget, outrageous films such as Mondo Trasho, Pink Flamingo, Multiple Maniacs, Female Trouble. He then went on to more mainstream success with films like Hairspray, Crybaby, Serial Mama, Dirty Shame. Mark spoke to him ahead of a new season at the BFI in London. Trash, the wildest films you've ever seen. Celebrating filmmakers and movies that revel in trash cinemas. Low budget underground weirdness on the big screen in all their trashy glory. And how was the line when you spoke to him?

[B]

Well, yeah, let me just set something up here. I mean, I've interviewed John. John Waters before, but when you interview online, he sort of sits in this chair surrounded by these posters and he doesn't use headphones. And we were doing the interview on the Miracle of Zoom. And what that meant was occasionally we couldn't hear each other very well. So you'll hear in the interview. At one point, I asked him specifically about Plan 9 from outer space, and he starts giving an answer that seems to be not about Plan 9 from outer space. He's talking about Glenn or Glenda, which is a previous film that Edward made. The other thing, if you're watching this on video, I had said at the beginning, are we doing this on video? Do I need to turn the lights on? They said, no, no, we're not going to use the video we have used. Which is why it looks like John Waters is in this fabulously lit throne of Trash and I appear to be in a cave because I hadn't turned the lights.

[A]

Okay, all right. Okay. So prepare yourselves for birdsong.

[B]

Yes, folks, this isn't any cheap X rated movie or any fifth rate porno play. This is the show you want.

[C]

Lady Divine's Cavalcade of Perversions, the sleaziest show on earth. Not actors, not paid imposters, but real,

[B]

actual folks filth who have been carefully

[C]

screened in order to present to you

[B]

the most flagrant violation of natural law known to man. You want to see them?

[A]

And we've got them.

[B]

Every possible thing you can think of. Come on, ladies, come right up this way. Come see Lady Divine's Cavalcade. Come on. John Waters, welcome to the show.

[C]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Tell me firstly, something about the BFI season celebrating Trash. What can we expect in that season?

[C]

You can expect a good time, no pretension, and looking back on a time that's very hard to imagine because in some ways it's incredibly politically incorrect, but it's so ludicrous that all you can do is marvel. I don't use the word camp, but some of these movies are so bad. They're great, but most of them are just so great. They're amazing and they were made to have the exact tone they have today. It just took 50 years to catch on, so people could understand that.

[B]

Take me back to the time when Trash was something that was edgy, that was genuinely transgressive, which is so different to nowadays, in which it seems to be tailor made. Take me back to that time. What was it like?

[C]

Well, many of these films, like Herschel Gordon Lewis and Russ Meyer, were not meant to be funny in any way. They were as real exploitation films, not in art theaters would never go near these films. Movies today, that's where they play. But no to then they were exploitation films and they were shown in the really the poorest neighborhoods and the lowest kind of audience appeal. And they wanted gore, they wanted sex, and especially in drive ins. Whenever you saw she Honked Her Horn, that was a big deal. And so I think it's come a long way. None of these were made to Be funny. People thought people were watching sexy, watching Faster Pussycat. They didn't think it was funny. People were screaming and puking and blood feeds. They thought they were scared. They didn't think it was funny. So these films were not made to be ironic.

[B]

It's funny because obviously here in the UK we never had the drive in market and we always had a much more restrictive censorship market. What kind of people were going to the drive ins?

[C]

What you had was known as the nasties, which all these films probably would have been included. I, I had a long run with the nasties. It took the London censor board almost 20 or 25 years to finally agree to show Pink Flamingos uncut. And there's a really good article you can find online that explains every single one of the cuts and how they eventually were absorbed by real America.

[B]

All right, well, tell us about what frame of mind you were in when you were making Pink Flamingos and Multiple Maniacs. What kind of world were you making those films in?

[C]

I was making the films to make myself and my friends laugh. And my friends were very mixed. They were black and white, gay and straight, rich and poor. And those people didn't hang around together. We were in the. We weren't hippies, we were yippies. We went. We didn't believe in peace and violence. We were, we were for comic terrorism where you made the audience laugh by, by making these movies that were in, in a way an act of terrorism against the tyranny of good taste. I think every one of these movies in this series could fit under that. And the audiences delighted in that. They delighted in the rule breaking, they delighted in the censorship things falling each time. You got to remember when many of these movies came out, frontal nudity wasn't even illegal, much less sex. That came way later.

[B]

I remember that there was a famous quote about Pink Flamingos. I may be misquoting, but it was used to have this on a poster on the wall behind you in your office. It said something on the lines of who are these people? Where do they come from?

[C]

Another quote. But it was for female trouble, not pink. And it was feed at the time, a very, very middle brow critic. And it said, who are these people? Where do they come from? Where do they go when the sun goes down? Isn't there a law or something? That was the ad for. We put that in the ad for female trouble. But Pink Flamingos had the same thing. They said Variety said, beyond a doubt, one of the most repulsive films and disgusting films and film history and Last year they apologized and picked it as one of the top 100 comedy films of all times, which included Charlie Chaplin and the Marx Brothers. So times change, values change. And Pink Flamingos got named of a national registry as a great American film. How could that be? What I try to picture that screening was it when Cracker do my that they said, yes, this is the film that really should represent this government. It's great, great irony to me, but I take the award with, with real seriousness and proud.

[B]

But also the hilarious thing about that line that you just quoted is that was a joke about porno chic. That at the same time that people were throwing their arms up about your films, there was a kind of weird porno chic in America, wasn't there?

[C]

There was, but we got the great ad for Pink Flamingos that we used from Judith Christ. It was a major. A critic at the time said, goes beyond pornography the nearest American film to the allegiant dog. So she got it. She got it that it was trying to break the rules and taboos at the same time in delighting. We were in on the joke and so was the audience.

[B]

So, John, what kind of people were coming to see those films when they first came out?

[C]

Hipsters. Whatever you would call hipsters then. Gays, Gay people that didn't get along with other gay people. Hippies that didn't get along with other hippies. The radical lab, pretty much, but all in different ways, not the normal ones. And the word spread, and the word spread and people would bring people back to see it. You have to remember this was before the Internet or anything. So midnight movies was the only place that these kind of moviegoers could hook up. And everybody came stoned. I mean, there was open pot smoking in every midnight screening completely and people yelling out, the audience dressed as the costumes. And it would start once a week and then spread to two a week. And in Los Angeles, in one theater, it eventually played 10 years, at least one night a week. That's pretty good legs, as variety calls a long run.

[B]

Do you think the essence of cult movie making is that you're not trying to make a cult movie, you're just trying to make a movie that you like.

[C]

Well, if you are trying to make a cult movie, it almost always fails. All the films that come out today, that said, they're very John Waters esque, I usually hate those movies because they're trying too hard. You can never try too hard, or you try so hard that you don't realize they're funny. The greatest Ones like Ed Wood. He didn't think he was being funny when he made those movies, but yet Herschel Gordon Lewis, who made Blood Feast, he knew that he was not appealing to intellectuals, but he certainly laughed at how extreme he could be with the gore. He invented the gore movies. The same thing that Spielberg used in Ryan's. I would say, Shaving Ryan's Privates. But that's the porn title, whatever the title was. I forget.

[B]

There's. There's a. An interesting thing about Ed Wood, which is that when that ridiculous, you know, Golden Turkey Awards thing, the Michael Medford thing, they voted it the worst movie of all time. Categorically not the worst movie of all time. And. And actually a. Quite an interesting film.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And the world, of course, tackling a subject that no one had until Psycho. Psycho was the next movie that attacked especially killer trans. That was the first one that introduced it because Anthony Perkins, at the end, they had to explain to the audience in Psycho what trans even meant. So he was definitely ahead of his time. But there were things in it that really made me laugh. He would just have random sample shots of crowds walking in New York and said, people coming, people going. As if every single person was thinking about getting in drag. That's how he seemed to treat the subject, that every single person was a drag queen, really deep down.

[B]

And how important is it to understand that when he was making Glen or Glenda and when he was making Plan nine, he was trying to make the best movie possible?

[C]

Absolutely. He was not trying to be funny. He didn't know what the word camp meant, and he wouldn't abuse it if he did. It was made to be a successful horror film in his mind, to be a film that could play grind houses, which they were called at the time, but it was a huge market. They were incredibly successful, all those kind of movies. The movies in this series, many of them were very successful financially.

[B]

And, John, how do you feel about the fact that, as you kind of alluded to, you've gone from being the person who was thought to be, you know, bringing society down to being now one of the most revered and in your own particular district, beloved? And I mean, you are. You're a national treasure now.

[C]

I'm so respectable, like a puke. They even had that on the wall, I think, at my Academy Awards museum show. It's true. The films are worse now, actually. If you take political correctness and all this stuff, the lines are even worse. But more people see them now than they ever did. Criterion releases them all the class Possible accolades on had been given to me. And I take that with great honor. I don't find that funny. I don't feel like. Not like Janis Joplin when she famous scene in her documentary when she went back to her high school reunion, which she was famous to just prove. And they were all still mean to her. I don't care about the people from my past that put me down because of that. Now it's not a lazar. I never cared about them. Men even mentioned my. My movies were always crowded. Even when they got all bad reviews, the audience was in on it. And they knew because they hated at the time, the critics were either us or them. They were called straight. That didn't mean gay or heterosexual. It meant you smoked pot or you didn't, you were hippies or you weren't. And the critics hated this kind of new movement. They found most of them really did. There were a few supporters like Kevin Thomas at the LA Times, a few reporters at Variety. There were some. Vincent Canby. The New York Times, to this day, even when it was re. Released, never has reviewed Pink Flamingos. It was not all the news that spit the print. But Vincent Canby did write about it as a phenomenon and said I had faulty toilet training with my mother. Threw down the paper and said, you absolutely did not leave me out of it.

[A]

John Waters talking to Mark. There'll be more in just a moment. Question for you, Mark.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When people of the left complain about political correctness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is that okay? Because he complained twice about political.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And normally people who do that. Oh, okay. Well, political correctness is there kind of. To make the world.

[B]

I know. Well, I should say two things. The first thing is I like John Waters very much. I don't agree with everything John Waters says. And the second thing is that his, his, his whole sort of ethos, which is just, you know, overturn the statues, just kick against everything. I think is. You know, you and I have discussed in the past the private eye thing about just, just go for everyone and, and don't discriminate. And that's very much a John Waters thing. I mean, you know, as. As I said, I mean, I've talked about this before. I have issues with Pink Flamingos, but. But I think.

[A]

Which we'll get to, I think.

[B]

Yeah, but I think the most remarkable thing is the fact that John Waters has gone from being this, you know, the scourge of society to a national treasure whose films have now been absolutely part of the mainstream establishment, despite the fact that he remains singly and solely himself.

[A]

I hadn't heard the term yippies before, but I've looked it up and it is someone who was part of the Youth International party from the 1960s, a radical countercultural revolutionary. So that. That's right kind of describes exactly where we are. More with John Waters and Mark in just a moment. It's time to bring on the blooms at the Home Depot with Spring Garden Deals. Find savings on hanging baskets and flowers to brighten your backyard or any space that needs instant color. Then get everything you need to plant and protect them, with low prices guaranteed on soil and mulch. Dig into Spring garden deals for four days at the Home Depot now through May 10th. Exclusion supply.

[C]

See homedepot.com pricematch for details.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing.

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own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get [e-mail], own the dream. Okay, so now we get more with John Waters talking to Mark and was he talking about toilet training? Mark?

[B]

Was that talking about the fact that a newspaper review of Pink Flamingos had said that he had clearly had poor toilet training as a child, which his mother replied, no, you did not leave me out of it.

[A]

All right, well, here's part two.

[B]

You were in the documentary recently about Scala. So over here, Scala was something of a kind of a life raft for those of us who are interested in different kinds of movie making. I saw, I saw Pink Flamingos there.

[C]

I, I saw Scholar at full tilt. Cult craziness. It was absolutely a cathedral to cult movies. It was an exciting time. If you didn't go there and you were alive at the time, I don't. You must have been pretty square because it was the coolest place in the world.

[B]

But you said in the documentary that you thought some of the, some of the crowds at Scala put the American crowds to shame, that you thought we were, we were wilder than you lot,

[C]

it seemed to be. And it was also encouraged in that theater. Maybe, maybe the management was more permissible than some of the other managements at the time because many of the midnight theaters played normal art movies in the day. They didn't have audiences coming dressed as the characters in Truffaut movies that would be funny, but they don't do that. So I think that some of the managements of the theater were thrilled at the grosses but horrified by the audiences.

[B]

How does it feel that these films are now going to be part of a season at the British Film Institute, which is a, you know, thoroughly upstanding cathedral to art. And suddenly these movies are right there being celebrated by such a revered institution.

[C]

I always already had a great tribute, one man retrospective at the British Film Institute about all my films in the past. So I feel like I beat him to it. I was a great, great honor that it doesn't get much better than that. So the British Film Institute has been very supportive of my work from the beginning. But to be included in this festival and see all these movies playing in a hollowed place. But the British Film Institute has always had a great sense of humor about weird films and uncommercial movies. I don't think it's surprising that they're showing it, but I think it's a great honor and I'm proud to be with most every one of those directors maybe met.

[B]

What are some of your favorites that are playing in the season?

[C]

Well, I love Paul Marcy's movie, but you know, I have to stick up.

[B]

He.

[C]

He won't allow it be called Andy Warhol's trash. I mean Andy is the first person that that really branded name of a director. He was like Walt Disney. So I give Andy a little more credit than Paul does, but I think it's a great movie and I think Joe d' Alessandro is one of the greatest underground male stars ever. I think he is the top, top one. And he stole. I've been doing well. I had dinner with him last year and I George Kuchar. The Kuchar brothers are really a huge influence on me. Mike is still alive. I saw George right before he died. We were friends right up to the end. His ludicrous. He did Douglas Sir Colors and stuff before anybody did really. And really early 60s. He was the first person to ever show a turd on film. He There's a shot of a turd in a toilet before Pink Flamingo. So he beat me to that. The movies are crazy. They had the kind of stars we had, but yet they're incredibly. They're not outsider art. Because the Kuchar brothers knew what they were doing and they did right up till now.

[B]

Do you see the influence of those films in mainstream movies now?

[C]

Yes, all underground movies. I mean even after the Warhol films, when Midnight Cowboy was being made. They tried to hire the Warhol people to bring him in. Yes, I think the influence is from my films is that everything is okay for humor. Pretty much. You can bring in anything. Certainly. Divine made all drag queens hip from then on. They all had an edge. When I was young, drag queens were so square. They wanted to be Miss America or they were mother and stuff. Now all drag queens are made to. To make people nervous, which I. I like. I think all the thing. When all these movies were made, we watched the censorship laws fall. Fall. The very first thing. Ingmar Bergman was shown in Baltimore as a sex film. It was played in sex theaters. Monica, see her naked. There was. I even have an ad for the concession stand where you could order a Monica hot fudge sundae because that was how they were promoting it, which is pretty amazing. It's not what Bergman had in mind, but the censorship laws. First you could see a women's rear end, then breasts, then a man's ass, then a D. And then that's sort of the order it went in. And nowadays you can have a $800 million Hollywood movie that shows all those things and get away. There's nothing left you can't show. That's why we did the end of Pink Flamingos. There wasn't a law against that. There is a law against that today in porno, but we didn't do it for scatological reasons. And the few people in my entire life that told me that scene turned them on. I ran from those people.

[B]

Is there anything in any of those movies? I suspect that you're somebody who never regrets anything. But is there anything in any of those films that you regret?

[C]

Oh, there's lines that make me cringe and desperate living. But then it comes to the point. Are villains allowed to say horrible things? Well, why not? I mean, I think it's probably even a more villainous thing to say today. But, yes, I can say the F word on American network television now, but I can't say the word fat on public television. It's a different F word. Things have changed. You can give out needles to junkies on the street today and by being like a nurse or something. But if you light a cigarette, you get the death penalty in America. So everything has changed. But there's always some rules to make fun of.

[B]

Do you think that cinema can still be subversive? Are there films nowadays that have the subversive powers that those films had when they were in their heyday?

[C]

Certainly they are. I love Casper Noe's Movies. Bruno Dumont, I loved Eddington. I like. There's some. So many great films that are still breaking boundaries everywhere. They just have to think of a new way to do it.

[B]

Because when you were saying all these, There are things that are. Now we're able to do that we couldn't do before, but there are other things that we're not able to do. Do you think that culture itself is in a. An exciting phase or a moribund phase?

[C]

I think for the first, I hate the extreme left and the extreme right. I'm in the radical middle right now because neither the right or the left have any humor and they have trigger words. Both sides now, they both are politically correct on their side. So to me, I believe in the freedom of speech. I believe I should be able to yell fire in a crowded theater, even though that is a harmful thing to do. We have to put up with the worst of free speech to have free speech. And I think, just don't go. Don't listen to it. So turn off the television. Don't go to the movie theater. Don't read the book. I don't understand really censoring almost anything.

[B]

And what inspires you nowadays, what inspires

[C]

me is to continue laughing and making fun of the rules that liberals and myself live by. I still find everything. I went recently to a restaurant in San Francisco, and they had a sign out front saying, meat slaughtered only by gay farmers. And they were not kidding. And I was astounded by that. You know, what, are you insane? But so to me, that's what I'm saying. Even the rules of my side I find equally as ludicrous as the rules I rejected from my parents. And it seems the liberals now have more rules than my parents did.

[B]

Do you think it's strange at all that. I mean, whenever I speak to people about you and your films, the thing. I mean, I remember the first time I saw Pink Flamingos, and my response was partly, who are these people? Where do they come from? And then over the years, I've interviewed you a couple of times, and I'm a great, you know, cult movie enthusiast. And you have sort of become, you know, somebody that we. That we love and we revere and that we feel, you know, in the. In safe, in the company of.

[C]

When you did not, in the beginning, feel that.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[C]

Some people did okay. And all I needed was two or three. And I always say you only need three people to have a success besides your mother and the people you're sleeping with. The second, the person who said, you need one more person. When you have that third person, your career begins.

[B]

Okay, what's. What's the best movie you've seen recently, John?

[C]

Well, my 10 best list is every year in New York Magazine. This year it was. Eddington was my favorite, and the. And the sequel to Final Destination Number Two was second.

[B]

And for anyone who's going to the BFI season, who, who hasn't experienced the kind of movies that are playing there before, just prepare the way for them. What should they go in with? An open mind, a sense of humor. What do they need?

[C]

Well, they definitely need a sense of humor, but I don't think they would ever go. And an open mind. Who would go to a trash film festival. If you're a religious, touchy conservative, I don't know why you'd go if you haven't seen any of them. I'd start with Faster Pussycat, Kill. Kill, because I gave Russ Meyer a quote for that, saying, not only is it the best movie ever made, it's the best movie that ever will be made. There's no better blurb than that. That's when I stop blurbs. I don't do them anymore.

[B]

John, thank you very much.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Trash.

[A]

The wildest films you've ever seen. The season is at the BFI South bank in London, and it runs April 30. Some of your favorite John Waters stuff is in take two for one frame back. I have to say, free speech fundamentalists drive me absolutely crazy. And someone who thinks they have a right to shout fire in a crazy, genuine, just. It makes me think, what are you talking about?

[B]

That is absolutely the. The flashpoint, isn't it? And it's funny because I don't believe that either. I don't believe that you should have the right to shout fire in a movie theater. And. And so this is what I said about, you know, I don't agree with everything John Ward says, but nor do I feel that, you know, that I need to. I mean, also, it is a weird thing because we've had this discussion many times before about Pink Flamingos. I mean, I have real problems with Pink Flamingos with one particular scene in Pink Flamingos, not the notorious scene at the end. And I think that actually part and parcel of this is. Is that is the whole question about extreme extremity and shock for the sake of it. There is a radical side to it, but there is also a side to it that can be conservative. I thought it was very funny when he said that he was a radical moderate or Radical middle of the road. Think about. I'm as annoyed with the extreme left as I am with the extreme right. But yeah, no, I mean, and also I should say I've interviewed John Waters several times over the years and it's always been exactly like that. He says exactly what comes into his head, and I agree with about 60% of it. And I've told you the famous story with. When I interviewed him at Cannes with the reissue of Pink Flamingos, and there's a scene in Pink Flamingos involves a chicken, which I really objected to. And I said, the thing is, I can't ever forgive you for that scene. He said, oh, don't be ridiculous. He said, every people saw that scene and then they went straight out and ate a chicken sandwich. And I went, well, I didn't, because I, you know, I'm a vegetarian. He went, yeah, okay, right. But he, but it's not like you. You keep chickens as pets. And I went, well, actually, John, I do. And he paused and he went, all right, to you, I apologize. Everyone else can kiss my butt.

[A]

Okay, that, that comes up actually when we, when we get to one frame back. So we'll discuss more later. Correspondence@kevin amer.com Tell us something that's out

[B]

and interesting rebuilding, which is the complete antithesis of everything that John Water's just been talking about. So this is a really beautifully low key, restorative neo western drama from writer director Max Walker Silverman, who made the 2022 Sundance hit a love song. Ensemble cast includes Lili Latorre, Megan Fahey, Carly Rice, and Oscar winner Amy Madigan. Remember Amy Madigan, okay? Who I think is fab alongside leading man. How does he find time in his schedule to do this? Josh o', Connor, the hardest working man in indie film showbiz. So Josh o' Connor plays Dusty, who's a rancher whose home and livelihood have been destroyed by wildfires, which is an all too common story in the U.S. number of different things, you know, climate change, all the rest of it. That wildfires are becoming an increasing problem. And we've talked about documentaries about wildfires. This is, this is a really major issue. So he winds up in a trailer in a temporary FEMA camp where others who have lost their homes and their lives, and not their lives, their livelihoods, are now sheltering. Dusty is split from his wife. He now seems to be something of an isolated loner, but fate has brought him to this point where some form of accounting or reconciliation is due, not only with his wife, but also with his young daughter from whom he appears to have been estranged. He doesn't appear to have been around very much, but now he has to be around, even to the point of reading her favorite bedtime stories. Here's a clip

[C]

around here.

[B]

That night, he cried himself to sleep thinking about all the places he would never see again. Suddenly he was back on the Chisolm Trail, saving the princess from the Black Knight and hang gliding over the Grand Canyon. When he looked down, expecting to see the magic boots, all he saw was your own bare feet. In that moment, he realized it wasn't the boots that were magic, it was him. The thing I like about that clip is it does tell you a lot about the film tonally. I mean, there's a touch of Nomadland about it. There's a, you know, the sense of people who've become displaced or dispossessed finding an unlikely sense of community. I mean, he doesn't want to be in that trailer camp, but when he's there, he meets other people who all have their own stories and who all turn out to be basically decent, kind, helpful people. And we've had quite a lot of correspondence over the past few years, I suppose, and people saying, look, you can say what you like about America, particularly at the moment with everything. Don't confuse that with the American people. And this is a story about the worst situations bringing out the best in people. It's shot amid these Colorado locations that are, on the one hand, they're like the end of the world, but on the other hand, they're also strangely beautiful. In fact, there is a line in it in which Dusty says to his daughter, he says, it's pretty, ain't it? And you could say that this is like a typical American indie film in which not much happens against some spectacular scenery. And I confess that when I went in, because I knew a little bit about the film, I sort of thought that might be what it is. What I wasn't expecting was just how much it got under my skin, that it's quiet advocacy of endurance and friendship and kindness. And these people just being decent to each other really made me feel uplifted. I mean, part of it is down to Josh o', Connor, and I think that he is an amazing actor. He has the ability to hold the attention whilst doing very, very little, which is a really, really. You remember there was that famous thing about Michael Caine talking about the difference between stage acting and screen acting, which is screen acting, you move everything right down. And I know that's almost become a cliche. But the fact is there are some people who can do it and some people who can't. The people who can do it, you know that Josh o' Connor is going to be employed as a screen actor for the rest of his life because he can do it. But it's also just good to see a film that manages to celebrate all the best aspects of coming to terms with pain, coming to terms with loss, without descending into cheesy cliche. And I mean, compare this, for example, to Glenn Rothen. You could say, well, you know, they're both very soft hearted films about the good in people in these circumstances, yet they are completely, I mean, stylistically the opposite ends of the track. And for me, this is when film really speaks to me. I mean, I went into this with a heavy heart and I came out of it feeling genuinely uplifted and not a little surprised by that and ready to love my fellow man and woman anew. It is a good film in the, in every sense of the word. Good.

[A]

It's a boring title, don't you think? It sounds like an architecture magazine. Yeah.

[B]

And rebuilding and partly Simon. That's why I went in. Yes, with a heavy heart because it's a boring title and an uninspiring premise. But I promise you, the film is neither of those things.

[A]

You mentioned Josh o' Connor being the king of indie cinema.

[B]

He's also.

[A]

Because he's in the new Spielberg film film. Oh, you can basically do anything.

[B]

I know, but isn't. But hooray for somebody at this point in their career.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Still, you know, doing like, I think when we spoke to him the last time we spoke to him and he'd made that really sort of strange little quirky indie movie about the, you know, the, the, the, the guy digging up and stealing buried treasure. You know, I mean, it's just. Yeah. Good for him. He's a good guy.

[A]

So I think I'm just checking the notes. Yes, it is actually that time again, Mark. It's the bit that everyone tunes in for because we're broadcasting on medium wave, obviously.

[B]

And it's the bit that they look

[A]

at their clocks and they go, Yep, it's that time again. It's laughter lift.

[B]

Good. I feel good about that.

[A]

Yes, I do too. Here we go. However, Mark, I do have some bad news.

[B]

Oh, dear. Okay.

[A]

I thought I'd make, make dinner last night, but I ruined it. I burnt the Hawaiian pizza.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I should have cooked it at aloha temperature.

[B]

Okay, that's good. I, I like that joke. It's Very good.

[A]

I was in a woke pub in Showbiz North London at the weekend and a man walked in and put a Sony walkman from Japan, a Blaupunkt car stereo from Germany, a Bang and Olufsen hi fi from Denmark, and a generic branded boombox from China on the bar. And the barman said to him, I'm sorry, sir, we don't allow jokes based on stereotypes from different countries in here. Okay, slightly more hard work. But Mark, did you know that wolves have been re established in Denmark?

[B]

I didn't know that. Have they?

[A]

Sadly, I fell foul of them on a recent visit and I got bitten. The family in Russian, me straight to the hospital or hop, as they say in Danish. Nurse. I said, I've been bitten by a wolf. Where? Said she. No, no, it was just a normal one.

[B]

Werewolf. Werewolf. Why are we talking like this? I don't know. You started it.

[A]

What's still to come?

[B]

Mark, wizard of the Kremlin with one of the most unexpected pieces of casting I've seen in a long.

[C]

Time.

[A]

Fabio Sementilli. Big heart, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche.

[C]

He was like a wizard behind the chair.

[A]

The killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it.

[C]

You can't figure it out.

[B]

There was rampant speculation about everything, but

[A]

every wild theory was wrong because the truth was even more unbelievable.

[B]

What?

[C]

Is anyone hearing what I'm hearing?

[A]

And even more heartbreaking, the uncertainty of

[B]

not knowing is a form of agony.

[A]

From Sony Music Entertainment and novel. This is Cut Color Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast. To start listening today, subscribers to the binge can listen to all episodes all at once, ad free. Okay, I've got an email here from Alison Tsang. Greetings from Clergy Kids Narthex, which we established. You might or might not remember an annex of Clergy Corner, but with better cushions. And greetings specifically from your very occasional leprosy correspondent. Okay, okay. Not related to any film in particular that's out this week, but I thought Mark, particularly with his Methodist heritage, might appreciate this beautifully written piece about cinema in the Church Times this week. So basically, it's a long piece. There's a link to it in the show notes, but anyway, it's about cinema as a place of sacred encounter.

[B]

Okay, very good.

[A]

I found this love letter to cinema and the place of spiritual spirituality within it really moving. Whether a believer in organized religion or not, it speaks to Something in our nature about needing to belong and find sacred spaces. For reference, the venerable Dr. Rachel man is a brilliant priest based in Manchester and one of the Church of England's first transgender priests. She knows a bit, therefore, about feeling on the outside. Anyway, I hope you liked reading it as much as I did, especially the Roger ebook quote. Alison, thank you very much. These. So it's a long article. So as I said, if you want the whole thing, it's a link in our show notes. Here's the quote, here's the bit, here's just like one line, one paragraph. All I know is from the article is that when I was little, I fell head over heels in love with cinema. And I have lost, I've never lost my sense of awe and wonder when the lights dim and the music or sound effects begin and the world's greatest magic lantern act unfolds on screen. The great critic Robert Ebert said, no good movie is too long. No bad movie is short enough. Even when I've come home disappointed or angry with what I've seen at the flicks, I always enter the screening room with hope and expectation. Anyway, so the piece is by the federal Dr. Rachel Mann, Archdeacon of Bolton and Salford. It's in the Church Times. There's a link in the show notes. Thought you might be interested. Alison, thank you very much indeed.

[B]

I am interested in that. I am interested. I mean, firstly, I. I agree with the thing about the, you know, the cinema is the place of communal worship and all the rest of it. I also, I mean, I. I love that, that thing about you always go. You always go in with a sense of expectation. And I have always said that as a critic, if you ever lost, that you should stop. And that's why, partly when I. When I was talking the other day about Super Mario Galaxy and I said at one point, I nodded off. And I'm not proud of. I'm not proud of that at all, because I don't think that you should. You should be in, you know, in that state of detachment. I really don't.

[A]

My editor, my books editor at transworld, the most magical part of the process, or one of the most magical parts of the process, as you're very well aware, is when you get the first copy of the book, usually sent on its own. You get a box of them later, but you get a padded envelope with one copy of your book with the COVID and the edited words and all that kind of stuff. And he said, if I. If I ever lose the thrill of taking and seeing that first book after all the work, then it's time to stop. Which is kind of like the publishing equivalent to what you just said.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. In my case, if I ever lose the abject sense of buttock clenching terror when the book finally arrives, I should stop.

[A]

Correspondence at kevin and mayor.com. what else is out?

[B]

Yes. So wizard of the Kremlin, which is. Is a movie that contains what? Do you know anything about this film?

[A]

Absolutely nothing.

[B]

Okay, so let me, let me take you back. Many years ago, Meg Ryan is a helicopter pilot.

[A]

Yes, I remember.

[B]

You go, no, she's not. More recently, Russell Crowe is Herman Guring. And you go, really? And then you see the film and you go, wow. Okay, you ready for this?

[A]

Yes, go on.

[B]

Jude Law is. Who do you think?

[A]

Well, it's called the wizard of the Kremlin. So Vladimir Putin.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, okay, There you go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The title kind of gave it away, really.

[B]

I know, but did you expect to sit to hit? Jude Law is Vladimir Putin.

[A]

No, I don't think. No, I don't think so. But I hope he gets away with it.

[B]

Okay, so this is the new film by Olivier Sias, who is the French writer, director behind Clean Clouds of Sils. Maria personal shopper, of course, was, I think maybe probably the one that people know best. It is a darkly satirical political thriller slash existential drama. And it's based on a novel by, and forgive my pronunciation, Giuliano d', Empoli, which from a few years ago now, which has been adapted by essayists and author journalist Emmanuel Carrera. Had you heard of the novel or read the novel or anything at all?

[A]

No.

[B]

No, me neither. And I went back and looked it up and apparently it was acclaimed. Apparently was why it was translated into English language. I think it came out in English language. 2024 was very sort of well received. So the story of the wizard of the Kremlin follows the fictional character of Vadim Baranov, who is apparently a character inspired by the real life Vladislav Surkov. He's telling his story, the story of how he went from being an idealist artist and theater director caught up in the upheavals and the new freedoms of 90s Russia, to becoming a Kremlin insider spin doctor stooge who is right there, right there beside Putin during his rise to power. A rise which sees him turn from a dull apparatchik into the ruthless, you know, vampire dictator that we all now know and loathe. Here is a trailer. Here is a clip from the trailer. He's a spy.

[A]

KGB Vladimir Putin Vadim Baranov was a visionary director. He became known as the new Rasputin.

[C]

I want to be part of my

[A]

time, not just a witness. Stop making up stories, start creating reality. We need to invent something new. Brush needs a different brand of politician. He's young, athletic.

[B]

What interests me is power. So, as I said, you get Jude Law as Putin and as the central character, the new Rasputin, Paul Dano. Now, I am a fan of his. As you know, I've talked about Love and Mercy, which I think is a brilliant film. And I watched it again when Brian Wilson died, and I think his portrayal of Brian Wilson is really, really astonishing. I'm a very big fan of his. I was very, very cross when Quentin Tarantino said that ridiculous thing about, oh, yeah, he's such weak sauce and blah, blah, what a fool. So basically he is that central character who tells his story to Jeffrey Wright's role and after the pair meet over a mutual love of Yevgeny Zamyatin, who is the author of the 1920s novel. And this is all new to me. I don't claim for one minute to have known any of this author of the 1920s novel we, which is said to have Inspired George Orwell's 1984. I didn't know any of this at all. I saw it in the film, I went back, I looked it up. Film also features Alicia Vikander, of whom I'm a big fan. Will Keane, Tom Storridge alongside Jude Law as Putin. Now, now, it was really strange seeing this. Completely cold, knowing nothing at all. And I confess that when it was Jude Law is Putin, I was like, yeah, no, he isn't. Honestly, the thing I thought watching it is this is like watching Anthony Hopkins nailing Nixon in that Oliver Stone film. Because despite the fact that Jude Law looks nothing like Putin, he absolutely gets the physical gestures spot on. I mean, there is something really creepy and uncanny about just how well he gets the walk, the handshakes, those tiny microaggressions that Putin does that we've now watched on the news. I mean, it is remarkable. He moves just like Putin, which sounds like. Moves like Jaggi moves like Putin, which would be an absolute banging disco hit. And in a way that was positively uncanny. The problem, therefore, is that it's a shame that Paul Dano's performance, and as I said, I'm a big fan of his, is pretty one dimensional and essentially turns the wizard into something of a kind of two dimensional sort of semi robotic character. I mean, all his lines are delivered in this same monotone with a little hint of an accent, and I'm not even doing a good impression of it. You heard a little bit of it in the clip and it's weird because that performance feels wrong and artificial. And so actually also that voice is used for the narration, which kind of undermines films. So you've got on the one hand this weirdly hollow performance by an actor who I really like, who I thought would be great, and then you've got this. I mean, I'm, you know, I like Jude Law as an actor, but I just. Honestly, Jude Law is. Vladimir Putin is just the. No, he isn't. And then you watch this and it's the physicality, honestly, it's remarkable. As for Alicia Vikander, she does her best with a frankly kind of underwritten and sort of throwaway role about the woman with whom Vadi Baranov falls in love and then she leaves him for a flashier lifestyle. And the film itself, I think, is often quite inert and a little bit on the plodding side. But the Jude Law performance, I just went, okay, I, you know. Yeah, you got that. You, you absolutely nailed that.

[A]

Intriguing and worth watching just because of that, by the sound of it. Okay, correspondenceover.com is our email and it's also where you can send your video and audio clips if that's what you want to do for our what's on? And first of all, here's Matt. Hello, Simon and Mark. It's Matt from the award winning All Saints Elton Theatre Company. This season we've got two fantastic musicals that are based on films, both of which are on at the Met in Bury. We're performing the classic Singing in the rain from the 17th to the 20th of June. Then our youth group take to the Stage with Shrek Jr from the 9th to the 11th of July. Tickets are available from themet.org.uk thanks, bye. A very chirpy, yeah, performance.

[B]

Thumbs up for the presentation. Well done.

[A]

And when I said, first of all, it's Matt, that's the only one we've got.

[B]

So first and last word, I think it's really good to hear somebody giving it a bit of, you know, pep,

[A]

bit of zing, but a zing, bit of zap. Okay, send your watts on correspondencecodemo.com thank you very much indeed for all the ones that we have received. And that's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor, Simon, Paul, if you're not following the pod already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcasts, your investments may go up as well as down. Please come and join us on Patreon for all the good stuff, including this week's Take Ultra. Mark, what is your Film of the Week?

[B]

Well, you said boring title, uninspiring setup, surprisingly uplifting film. Rebuilding is my Film of the Week

[A]

and I am going to bestow a year's Ultra membership to our Correspondent of the Week, who I would say is Josie from South West London, who went to the Parent and baby screening at the Barbican and let us know of how to go and see a film in the middle of London for six quid. And so well done to the Barbican for all of that. Josie will be in touch. Thank you very much indeed for listening. There'll be another take along alongside this one, of course. Inevitably.

[C]

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[B]

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