Level up or game over for SUPER MARIO GALAXY?

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Level up or game over for SUPER MARIO GALAXY?

Date: April 2, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode, Simon Mayo
Guest: Hugh Bonneville

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Overview of the Episode

In this week’s packed episode, Mark and Simon delve into a slew of new releases and TV gems, discuss the perils and pitfalls of technology and AI, wade through personal nostalgia and audience correspondence, and serve up their signature blend of banter and insight. They review The Drama (dark social satire starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson), Disney’s Super Mario Galaxy Movie (the latest animated adaptation of the iconic game), the crime thriller Fuse, and the much-anticipated 2026 TV mockumentary—joined by star Hugh Bonneville. Along the way, they dissect generational connections to film, air delightful listener stories, sample the week's box office, and, as always, cap it off with the gloriously groanworthy Laughter Lift.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Banter, Tech Woes & AI Nonsense

[00:00–06:52]

• Simon pokes fun at his lack of tech savvy, Mark ribbing him in return.
• They review their surprisingly sweary attempts to set up HD webcams:
  “But you were doing the swearing. I’m just making that very clear.” (Simon, 03:41)
• Amusing digression into AI errors—ChatGPT wrongly lists Simon and Phil Jupitus as Radio 1’s first openly gay presenters.
  “ChatGPT has absolutely no idea what it’s talking about.” (Simon, 05:16)
  “Is there anything... I mean, it’s clearly just wrong about everything.” (Mark, 05:46)
• Anecdotes about childhood visits to bad movies, the capital of Scotland (“Phil Jupitus”), and the weirdness of AI mishaps.

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Housekeeping, Audience Perks & Sweets Chat

[06:53–12:00]

• Promotion for the show’s subscription tiers, Patreon extras, and bonus Q&A.
• Simon scolds the pink jelly babies (“an abomination”), launching an in-depth discussion on the “contrast effect” in sweets—how less desirable flavours make the good ones better.

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Parenting, Censorship & Movie Memories

[12:00–15:13]

• Listener advice on showing kids PG-13/adult movies. Highlights a crowd-sourced app for age-appropriate recommendations (showmykids.com).
• Mark recalls being snuck into “All the President’s Men” by his dad’s sly gesturing:
  “The adult world is complicated.” (Mark, 15:03)

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Review: The Drama

[15:18–24:26]

• Mark reviews The Drama (dir. Kristoffer Borgli), a “darkly satirical, non rom-com” produced by Ari Aster, starring Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.
• Plot: A newly-engaged couple’s drunken party game uncovers a shocking thought (not deed), derailing their wedding plans.
• Mark’s take: “I thought it was excruciating, but in a good way... It’s a classic bourgeois social satire...” (21:28)
• Memorable quote:
  “If you can possibly go and see this just thinking, ‘I like those actors…’ Don’t find out anything else about it.” (Mark, 18:58)
• Deep discussion on secrets in relationships (citing Gabriel Byrne’s “public, private, and secret” personas).
• Simon posits: “Well, if anything is going to make me watch an Ari Aster film, it’s having Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.” (23:37)

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Box Office Top 10 & Mini-Reviews

[27:12–35:25]

• Usual rundown of UK and US box office, with miniature reviews:
  • Scream 7: “Not a moment too soon” (Mark)
  • How to Make a Killing: “The superior film… Kind Hearts and Coronets.” (Mark)
  • They Will Kill You: “Riotously blood-splattered... popcorn fodder.” (Mark)
  • Ready or Not 2: Here I Come: “Better than we had a right to expect.” (Mark)
  • Reminders of Him: “The Nick Sparks of today... baggy, sentimental, but well-acted.” (Mark)
  • Magic Faraway Tree (new entry): Touching audience emails; praised for heart and fun.
  • Project Hail Mary: Full discussion below.

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Review: Project Hail Mary

[35:25–41:33]

• Listener Phil (science teacher) points out inaccuracies in the ‘science’ of the film versus the book.
  “The intent is clear, but the wording gave me a quiet biological eyebrow raise.” (Phil, 37:14)
• Simon’s verdict: Enjoyed the movie as an experience, but found it “annoyingly goofy” compared to the book, especially after finishing the novel just before viewing—describes the ending as “like an episode of The Muppet Show.”
• Mark’s rebuttal:
  “You went in having had weeks of me telling you how fabulous it was… and you were slightly disappointed. And I think that does tell us something… the circumstances under which you see a film are significant.” (Mark, 40:06)
• General agreement that the film is big-hearted and Gosling is excellent, but tone and context shape our responses.

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Interview: Hugh Bonneville on 2026

[43:27–58:51]

Setup

• Hugh reprises the role of Ian Fletcher (from 2012 and W1A) now as “Director of Integrity” for the oversight team of the (intentionally unnamed and bleeped) 2026 World Cup in Miami.
• The show avoids using “FIFA” or “World Cup” due to legal reasons, leading to a running gag of bleeped names.
  “Every time FIFA or the World cup comes up, it’s bleeped... the executives on the show decided it might be just easier to bleep everything.” (Hugh, 46:15)

The “Pain” of Filming

• Hugh and international cast (Americans, Mexicans, Belgians...) had a hard time nailing the “ums, ahs, ands, and buts”—all precisely scripted for Morton’s Pinter-esque dialogue style:
  “Definitely the hardest job I’ve ever done in terms of learning, because a lot of the dialogue doesn’t make sense...” (Hugh, 49:15)
• Compared to Downton:
  “Downton Abbey as a stately galleon, and this is a jet ski...” (Hugh, 49:15)

What’s It About?

• Like its predecessors, not really about football, but about bureaucracy, management doublespeak, and “ballet” of office politics:
  “It’s about the interaction of characters and the hierarchy within the team—even down to which desk Ian Fletcher sits at.” (Hugh, 53:23)

Memorable Quotes

• “As Ian Fletcher often says, every problem is just a solution waiting to happen.” (Hugh, 58:16)
• On Shadowlands:
  “It’s about love and loss and grief and coming to terms with all those things... If we can’t escape it, it’s going to happen to us.” (Hugh, 57:28)

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Post-Interview Analysis: Mark & Simon

[58:51–66:43]

• Simon relays his history seeing Shadowlands (Nigel Hawthorne, Anthony Hopkins). Mark discusses the perils of stepping into the shoes of an icon (“irreplaceable”).
• Mark defends the show’s disciplined script structure, likening it to Pinter/McDonagh (“every ‘um’ and ‘ah’ is scripted”).
• On not mentioning “FIFA” or “World Cup”:
  “The joke about not being able to say FIFA or World cup is consistently funny.” (Mark, 62:41)
• Both hosts agree 2026 brilliantly satirizes institutional ridiculousness, with broad appeal.

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Review: Super Mario Galaxy Movie

[71:21–78:01]

• Mark reviews the Nintendo/Illumination animated sequel, based on the 2007 Wii classic.
• Cast: Chris Pratt, Charlie Day, Anya Taylor-Joy, Jack Black, plus Benny Safdie, Donald Glover, Brie Larson.
• Mark’s main criticism: heavy fan-service and Easter eggs for gamers, little appeal for general audiences.
  “For anyone... who isn’t immersed in the world, it’s just noise… It was like being banged repeatedly in the face with a candy floss machine.” (Mark, 77:41)
  Admits to drifting off during the film:
  “[My friend] noticed you nodded off during a part of Mario Galaxy. When you woke up, did you feel like you were tripping balls?” (Mark, relaying Van’s text, 76:27)

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Review: Fuse

[78:04–80:22]

• Crime thriller by David Mackenzie (Hell or High Water); stars Aaron Taylor-Johnson as a bomb disposal expert, Sam Worthington, Gugu Mbatha-Raw.
• Plot: WWII bomb discovery in London triggers evacuation and provides cover for a heist.
• Mark: “Solid, if unremarkable fare. Perfectly entertaining Friday fair... probably best viewed from the sofa.” (Mark, 80:22)

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Laughter Lift (Comedic Interlude)

[66:43–68:52]

• Discusses whether the Laughter Lift counts as “elevated comedy.”
• Jokes include puns about “Purgatory” cats, lengthy fart jokes, and Simon's history as a character in Viz magazine.

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Audience Correspondence

[70:04–71:21]

• Orla from Ireland shares a touching tribute to her late friend Alex, who spread cinematic joy during lockdown through the show.
• The hosts reflect on such connections fostered via listener community.

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Closing & Films of the Week

[80:22–end]

• Mark’s Film of the Week: The Drama (“by a country mile”)
• Next week: Interview with Brian Cox (actor, not the scientist).

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Notable Quotes

• “ChatGPT has absolutely no idea what it's talking about.”
  —Simon Mayo, 05:16

• “If you can possibly go and see this just thinking, ‘I like those actors…’ Don’t find out anything else about it.”
  —Mark Kermode on The Drama, 18:58

• “Downton Abbey as a stately galleon, and this is a jet ski… whizzing around the bay at full pelt.”
  —Hugh Bonneville on the pace of 2026, 49:15

• “Every problem is just a solution waiting to happen.”
  —Hugh Bonneville as Ian Fletcher, 58:16

• “It was like being banged repeatedly in the face with a candy floss machine.”
  —Mark Kermode on Super Mario Galaxy, 77:41

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• AI & Tech Banter: [00:00–06:52]
• Jelly Babies/Contrast Effect: [10:12–12:00]
• The Drama Review: [15:18–24:26]
• Box Office Rundown: [27:12–35:25]
• Project Hail Mary Debate: [35:25–41:33]
• Hugh Bonneville Interview—2026: [43:27–58:51]
• Post-Interview Reflection: [58:51–66:43]
• Laughter Lift: [66:43–68:52]
• Super Mario Galaxy Movie Review: [71:21–78:01]
• Fuse Review: [78:04–80:22]
• Film of the Week & Close: [80:22–end]

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Tone & Style

Witty, warm, conversational, often veering from irreverent pop-culture riffs ("banged in the face with a candy floss machine") to thoughtful, poignant asides about family, life, and grief. The hosts’ friendly rivalry and long history shine through—delivering a genuinely engaging ride for both die-hard film fans and casual listeners.

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For more reviews, exclusive content, and brilliant banter, check out Kermode & Mayo’s Take every week.

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark, you know I'm really massive techie, right?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

If you saw me at my local coffee shop in Showbiz North London, you'd probably mistake me for Neo from the Matrix. Without the illegal hacking or sunglasses indoors, obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

What are you talking about? You're having some sort of breakdown? Do you actually even own a computer?

[Simon Mayo]

What I'm talking about, I'm on it now. Talking to you is the transformation my web browsing has been through. Now that I've got NORDVPN on all my devices, I use NORDVPN to keep my online activity safe with encryption, threat protection and dark web alerts to guard against hackers and to secure public WI fi.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, welcome to the future, Simon. I've been doing that for ages. And with one click, NORDVPN can change your device's virtual location so you can access all the things you need when you're abroad.

[Simon Mayo]

Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to nordvpn.com take with our link.

[Mark Kermode]

You'll get an extra four months free on the two year plan and it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description.

[Simon Mayo]

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, a new to MUBI in the UK this March is the brilliant no Other choice from Park Chan Wook. If you're a regular listener of the show, you will have heard me reviewing the film and raving about it. Actually kind of struggling to describe it because it's a black comedy, it's a thriller, it's a social satire, it's about a man whose life starts to fall apart and he takes unreasonable measures to correct things. I was absolutely fascinated by it. I thought it was a terrific film and as I said, it's coming to MUBI in the UK from March 13th.

[Simon Mayo]

You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.comkermodenmayo that's M-U-B-I.com Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[Mark Kermode]

There really is no other choice.

[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[Mark Kermode]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in Questions?

[Mark Kermode]

You can get all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. The only problem with technology. Well, actually there are lots of problems,

[Mark Kermode]

lots of problems with technology.

[Simon Mayo]

But in, in general, because we've upped the standard of the visual side of this audio production.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

By giving ourselves high def cameras. And now that's a terrifying thing. And now I can see that I haven't shaved and I'd forgotten that. So whereas before on the webcam it was. You wouldn't know. So now I just look a shambles.

[Mark Kermode]

So I on the other hand, have showered and shaved, but I still look like a shambles.

[Simon Mayo]

I've shown.

[Mark Kermode]

That's what I've showered.

[Simon Mayo]

I have standards.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, you shower but you haven't shaved. Yeah, but I have showered and shaved.

[Simon Mayo]

That's good.

[Mark Kermode]

And pomaded my hair.

[Simon Mayo]

Beautiful.

[Mark Kermode]

But we've just spent a very sweary half an hour trying to set these two cameras in. You were there too.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, but you were doing the swearing. I'm just making that very clear. Much. You're always very surprised when I say you're quite sweary. But I think the last half hour is proof. And anyway, we're all fine.

[Mark Kermode]

Are we putting. Are we putting that out as an extra?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. All Mark's cussing to the tune of

[Mark Kermode]

All My Loving oh my cousin.

[Simon Mayo]

Here's the thing.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Talk about technology on Blue sky social media platform. Someone called Nick Hilton posted this. He'd. He said he'd use Chat GBT as a search tool.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. But this made him laugh. Okay. So I think I could probably guess what made him look do this. But anyway, what he asked Chat GBT for what this is. This is a lesson in not trusting AI. Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. All right.

[Simon Mayo]

He said, who were the first openly gay radio hosts on Radio 1?

[Mark Kermode]

Please tell me it said us the

[Simon Mayo]

F. And to which the answer from ChatGPT with the the wisdom of the entire Internet loaded into says the first openly gay presenters on Radio 1 were Simon Mayo and Phil Jupiters.

[Mark Kermode]

Excellent.

[Simon Mayo]

And then it says hyphen, but with an important nuance. One, Simon Mayo is not gay, so he doesn't count in this sense. Two, Philip Jupiter is also not gay. I mean, could also add he was never a presenter on Radio 1.

[Mark Kermode]

Other than that.

[Simon Mayo]

But. And I thought, okay, well, you know, that's it. So it contradicts itself in. In its own text.

[Mark Kermode]

That's mad.

[Simon Mayo]

It gives me and Phil as the answers and then says, actually, no, not them. And then it says the commonly accepted answer is actually Chris Evans. Brackett's not gay. And others hosted the Nation, hosted the station early on, but they weren't openly gay. So in other words, ChatGPT has absolutely no idea what it's talking about.

[Mark Kermode]

But I did tell you that last week ChatGPT made my. Made my day by telling me that I was a member of the Panic Brothers. I don't want to be a member of the Panic Brothers. Is there anything.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, it's clearly just wrong about everything. What's the capital of Scotland? It would probably say Phil Jupiters or Phil Jupiters. Phil Jupiters is going to come up later in our various recordings today because he was present at the first Pokemon movie, which I went to taking child one aged about five, and I was sitting next to Phil, who'd taken his child and we were both complaining and I brought newspapers and I wanted. And then of course the lights go down and you can't. So you have to watch this awful, awful picture. But anyway, apparently it's much loved. So, you know, hello to Phil Jupiter's, just in case he's listening. Anyway, you're looking cool and groovy with a guitar over your left hand shoulder.

[Mark Kermode]

There was a bottle of beer over

[Simon Mayo]

your right hand shoulder, but that's been moved.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm in. I'm in Ali's house as I. I've made quite clear we're having our roof done and so I'm, I'm just. So this show in the next world, I've been recording in Ali's house because in our house, it literally sounds like. Like we're in the middle of an air raid as the slates come off.

[Simon Mayo]

What beer was it? Was it a breakfast beer?

[Mark Kermode]

It's this, isn't it? Ned's Wonder. It's a wonder stuff beer.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, well, it's like a promotional freebie.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it's. Ali's a big Wonder stuff fan. So this is Ned's wonder 4.1 alcohol.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, that's not a breakfast beer, really.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a balanced ale with a floral start and a subtle caramel finish.

[Simon Mayo]

Depending on whether the technology works or not, you could. You might want to use that later. You might want to take the top off and just consume it all.

[Mark Kermode]

I'll tell you what I really want to do. I want to put this on the. In front of the web camera. So it looks like this is my holding picture.

[Simon Mayo]

That's right. I mean, it does. That actually does look like you from last week. I think we should say that was. Marcus just held up a picture of

[Mark Kermode]

Elvis quaffing his quiff of King Charles

[Simon Mayo]

III in all his pomp. So on the show a bit later on, what are you doing?

[Mark Kermode]

Honestly, we've got such a packed show. We have reviews of Fuse, which is a London based thriller. We have Super Mario Galaxy movie, which is the latest animated incarnation of Super Mario. We have the drama with Zendaya and our Pats. And from the World of Television, 2026 with our very special guest, yes, young

[Simon Mayo]

Hugh Bonneville reprising his role as Ian Fletcher, who now is director of integrity on the oversight team in Miami for the 2026 World Cup. Except you can't call it the World cup and you can't say FIFA because of contractual reasons. So they're bleeped out. Which is.

[Mark Kermode]

Which is. Which is actually very funny, Hugely entertaining.

[Simon Mayo]

And in take two, Mark, in take

[Mark Kermode]

two we have reviews of. Well, there's a 25th anniversary reissue of Amelie, oh, with Audrey Tattoo, and a documentary, McCartney Hunt for the Lost Base, in which they hunt for Paul McCartney's lost base.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, that could have been about anything, couldn't it?

[Mark Kermode]

Really could.

[Simon Mayo]

Also in take two, you'll get even more of the good stuff, including the five question Film Club. Three questions, your majesty available for you on Patreon. Our intros to Cold War, the Silence of the Lambs, Heathers and the Elephant man, among many others. So head on over to Patreon if you'd like to join the club. Plus you get all the other top quality content ad free. Although some people love the ads. So I'm. You can't say I'm on Patreon, but please can I have these ads? You can't do that because you're either ad free or you're not ad free. That's basically the way it is.

[Mark Kermode]

We could just do a bonus which you get. If you get the Patreon, there is just a bonus which has got the ads in it.

[Simon Mayo]

Maybe we could do a, a take three with all the ads which is just ads.

[Mark Kermode]

It's just us selling any old tat.

[Simon Mayo]

And with the release of Super Mario Galaxy, which Mark mentioned, we asked you for your favorite Nintendo themed films in one frame back, assuming that you have some. And questions in which Mark and I will answer this question, apart from many others, apart from the artistic merit and our pure enjoyment of our favorite films. Do we think these films resonate with us because of the age we were when we first saw them? To which the answer is obviously yes. Did these films capture a fascination with us because of where we were in our life and so caught us just

[Hugh Bonneville]

at the right moment?

[Simon Mayo]

Moment. Anyway, we'll do that more detail a bit later on. Okay. Who's this? Oh, Clive in London. Very long term listed, dear Jelly bean and Sean Bean, with reference to the conversation about jelly babies.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

And the preference for the black, green and yellow ones. This was my preference. Certainly it may be worth noting that. I mean, in the pecking order, I would say the green and black are best and the yellow ones just behind. And then the red and orange fit for nothing.

[Mark Kermode]

And the pink ones you just pass over because they are an abomination.

[Simon Mayo]

It may be worth noting, says Clive, that the pink and red ones make the other ones taste better as described by the contrast effect. Quote. A cognitive and sensory phenomenon where the perceived intensity, sweetness or desirability of a sweet item is enhanced or diminished by a preceding or simultaneous stimulus. A fact that I'm always reminded of whenever I eat Terrell's Vegetable Crisps where the beetroot and carrot is made all the better by the obviously inferior parsnip. Which is definitely true. The only trouble with the beetroot crisps is that you have to remember the following morning that you have been eating beetroot crisps.

[Mark Kermode]

Because.

[Simon Mayo]

Because otherwise you might get a bit of a scare.

[Mark Kermode]

Why?

[Simon Mayo]

You might think there is blood in your stool, Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh my word.

[Simon Mayo]

So it's a problem with beetroot in general, really, that you just have to remember. But that's interesting. So. But the thing is, I would enjoy if they marketed the black, green and yellow without the other ones. I think I would still prefer it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. I mean, I would def. I. I would definitely go. I would definitely go for that. I mean, I. It's. The pink ones are the ones that absolutely do my head in, but the black. The black and green ones are fabulous.

[Simon Mayo]

Gone.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I was just gonna say black jelly baby. I mean, I love all jelly babies except the pink ones. But black jelly babies are something very, very special. And the real. The really sad thing is if you get packet of jelly babies and you open them up and you spray them out, you. There's only ever you about three of the black ones in there. They are. They know that they're the best ones so they ration them. Whereas they just put a ton of the pink ones in.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yeah. Which is very disappointing. But is there a greater pleasure in life than opening a tube of smarties and tipping them all in your mouth at the same time and then throwing away the tube?

[Mark Kermode]

Have you done that?

[Simon Mayo]

I always wanted to do that and my brother also and, and then of course it's a bit reckless when you're a kid, but okay, I think that's very exciting. Shane in Dublin regarding the ongoing conversation of when the right time is to show more teen or adult orientated movies to your kids.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

As the father of two young girls about to turn 8 and 10 this month, I've been wrestling with this for a number of years. I distinctly remember taking my 7 year old brother to see RoboCop 2 certificate 18 by ourselves on ourselves by in 1990 and having the usher ask me a 12 year old hey, are you sure he's old enough? And then waving us in while we emerge with just mild trauma. The psychotic foul mouth child. And it was a highlight. I've tried to protect my kids from repeating my mistakes as I'm an engineer, says Shane. I decided to code my way out of the problem. I built the web app showmykids.com for myself to note down films, music and books I want to introduce children to in the years to come. Right when I think of it, I get to decide what age they should be. And after each birthday the app checks what my kids are now old enough for and sends me an email to remind me to take the time to expand their horizons. It also shows you what other parents are recommending for your kids ages, giving you further ideas for great content, content they might like. Hopefully all whit attainees will find it useful and lead to many more special but age appropriate moments with their kids. That's very Take it down with all things orange, bloated and full of hot air. So that is showmykids.com which is a very good idea. Obviously this is a very personal thing because what's fine for one 8 year old will not be appropriate for another 8 year old. But it's always good to have the wisdom of the crowd, don't you think?

[Mark Kermode]

I've told you a million times that my dad took me and my sister to see all the President's Men because he had a he. He is the root of my Nixon obsession. And we weren't old enough to see it because it was a double A certificate film so you had to be 14. And my dad refused to lie about our ages but what he did was that when we got up to the to the counter. And the woman behind the counter, she said, three tickets for all the President's Men. And she said, are they both over 14? And my dad just went. Just gestured towards us, like, right.

[Simon Mayo]

So the. So the gesture that you're. That you're doing there is a. What do you think? Yeah, what do they look like?

[Mark Kermode]

Obviously they're 14. And so he didn't actually lie. He didn't actually lie. He just implied. And I remember thinking, wow, the adult world is complicated.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, that's very true. Okay, so tell us something that is out and new and interesting.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, let's start on a high note with the drama, which is a darkly satirical. It's got a non rom com. Written and directed by the Norwegian filmmaker Christopher. I think it's Borgli. B O R G L I say Christopher Borgli, who. Who made Dream Scenario. Remember I reviewed Dream Scenario, which is the film in which Nick Cage is this kind of schlubby guy who suddenly starts turning up in everyone's dreams and becomes a sort of superstar as a result of it. And then everything goes blackly horrible and wrong. So that film was produced, like this new film by Aries. Now, you remember how much you and I love Aries.

[Simon Mayo]

No, you love Aries.

[Mark Kermode]

You remember how much fun.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm quite happy not seeing it anymore.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well, you know what? What? The kind of tone of Ari Aster's movies is like. You're not allowed to make that noise any more than I'm.

[Simon Mayo]

Don't tell. Don't tell me that this is another one like that.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, there is a tonal. There is a tonal connection. So the new film, the drama stars Zendaya R. Pat, Robert Pattinson, Mamadou Achie Ache. I beg your pardon? Alana Haim, Haley Gates and Zoe Winters. So Zendaya and Arpatz. Zendaya and Arpatz are Emma and Charlie. They're this young couple. They were like 30 or something, which to me is young. They're approaching their wedding. We meet Charlie. He's writing his wedding speech and he's telling the story of how they met. So we see a little bit of flashback. They met in a coffee shop. He saw her reading a book. He hadn't read it, but he was trying to impress her, so he pretended to have read it. He started talking to her. She didn't hear him because she's deaf in one ear and she had an earpod in the other ear. He found the whole. Meet cute, incredibly charming, fell in love with everything about her, including her Weird laugh. One day, one evening, they go out with the maid of honor and her partner and they are finalizing the food and drink for the wedding. They've all eaten and drunk too much and they start having one of those conversations in which they start playing a game, which is what's the worst thing you've ever done? Which is a foolhardy game for anyone.

[Simon Mayo]

Never ever play games like that.

[Mark Kermode]

Never. Particularly when you've eaten and drunk too much. So one of them says a confession about something to do with a dog. Another one has a confession about cyber bullying. Another one has a confession that they once locked this kid in a cupboard. But when it gets to Emma, who's Zendaya's character, she confesses to doing something. In fact, not even doing it, but having thought of doing something that she then didn't do, that is considered to be so outrageous that it basically derails everything. Here's a clip from the trailer.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

So you're saying Charlie is your first love?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

First love or your first crush?

[Simon Mayo]

Both, I think.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

What, is that insane at 30?

[Simon Mayo]

So I want to say this thing about her laugh, you know how it's

[Mark Kermode]

very cute, but it's also kind of like

[Simon Mayo]

repulsive even.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

Alright, so before we got married, we

[Hugh Bonneville]

did this thing where we said the

[Mark Kermode]

worst thing we've ever done. Okay, I'll tell mine if we all do it.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Promise.

[Mark Kermode]

What did you do? This doll.

[Simon Mayo]

Beer bottles and porn.

[Mark Kermode]

You left in there overnight. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

What's the worst thing I've ever done?

[Ad/Guest Voices]

Okay, I. Are you serious? I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[Simon Mayo]

I order maneuvers.

[Mark Kermode]

Emma.

[Hugh Bonneville]

What the.

[Mark Kermode]

So the maid of honor is shocked. Charlie is so baffled that he starts to wonder whether he actually knows his bride to be. All of them are basically astonished that she could even have thought such a thing, despite the fact that they live in a country where this particular thing, which incidentally she did not do, but she thought of doing, is horrifyingly common. And then the rest of the film is this kind of toe curling black comedy in which the rails come off as the wedding approaches, zooming towards them. The irony of it all being that the person who's at the center of it sort of being vilified for thinking about doing something without doing it, is actually probably the most reasonable of all of the people. I mean, I thought it was. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know what the thing was. Obviously it's not revealed in the trailer. Actually, weirdly enough, just before I went into the film, which I didn't even know who was in it. I only knew that the title was the Drama. And Tim Roby, who's a colleague of mine, said, do you know the twist? And I said, I didn't even know there was a twist. I don't even know what. What sort of film it is. He said, great, because everyone's been telling me what the twist is and I didn't. So I had no idea at all. So if you can possibly go and see this, just thinking, I like those actors. I, you know, maybe I like the director's previous film. Don't find out anything else about it. I thought it was excruciating, but in a good way. Although I remember that you and I, you and I have different versions of what excruciating, you know, because it was Bowie's Afraid, wasn't it? That the more you didn't laugh, the funnier I thought it became. I thought watching people tying themselves up in knots whilst trying to deal with something that didn't happen was profoundly, I mean, entertaining in the worst sense of the word. I mean, on the one hand, it's a classic kind of bourgeois social satire in the manner of something like, you know, Robert Altman's A Wedding, or that Margot at the Wedding, you know, which I. Which again, it's all these forces sort of coalescing around something in which you have to maintain the illusion of politeness even as existential chaos is lurking. I also think, and this may be personal, I think it is rather pointed political satire. There is in fact one moment in which the discussion has become very heated and somebody says, oh, so America is to blame? To which I thought, yes, it is, absolutely. I think others will feel differently. And I think that one of the things that impressed me about the movie is that the way in which you respond both to the revelation and also to the way people respond to the revelation will depend very much on how you yourself view and contextualize the central revelation. I mean, personally, I was on side with Zendaya's character, but the movie is clearly designed to allow you to have a number of different responses. I mean, it helps that the performances are pretty much note perfect. And the script, although the script is outlandish, it never descends into ludicrous caricature. I mean, yes, things get out of hand. If you've watched the trailer, you'll know that things definitely come off. The wheels definitely come off when it gets to the wedding. But, like, Beau is Afraid, I suspect that I found this a lot funnier than you would find it. But I think that you would. You would find that there is a really interesting idea at the center of it, which is, you know, on the one hand it's how much do you know people? How. There's a lot of stuff about. When were you going to tell me this? Well, you know, have you. Do you tell every. Do you tell every detail of your past life to everybody? You know, if you. If you're about to get married, you say, incidentally, there are things in my past that you don't know anything about. And here I am clearing house. And the thing that makes it work so well is that it comes up by mistake at the end of a drunken evening when they are playing a stupid game. And for me, the moment when they started to play the game of what's the worst thing you've ever done? Because bear in mind, I hadn't even seen the trailer. I didn't even know they were going to do that. It was like, stop, stop. Get up now. Get a cab. This will not end well. Particularly if the worst.

[Simon Mayo]

It's not the worst thing you've done, it's the worst thing you thought of doing. Which takes it into a whole new category.

[Mark Kermode]

Precisely because. What was that phrase that you once used? You said there were three sign sides to anybody, which is.

[Simon Mayo]

This was gay. This was Gabriel Byrne. So this is in. In the Gabriel Byrne interview that he did for us, and he talked. This is. So it was something like, you have a public. There's a public side to you, there's a private side to you, and there's a secret side to you. It's something like that.

[Mark Kermode]

That's right. And also there's. There's the question of. Well, you thought about doing it and, and you, and you, You. You started to think you were going to do it and then you didn't do it. At what point does thinking about something. Anyway, whatever. I thought it was a really interesting movie. I thought it was. I was really engaged where I thought the performances were great and I found a lot of it absolutely excruciating, but in a way that I really enjoyed.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, if anything is going to make me watch an Ari Aster film, it's having Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, but it's not an Ari Aster film. It's an. He's a producer. So it is. It is from. As I said, it's from the director of Dream Scenario, but his name is on it. And the moment his name came up, I thought two things. I thought, firstly, that says something tonally and secondly, I really wonder what Simon

[Simon Mayo]

may think of this, but that essentially. So the two of the biggest movies. So we, when Robert Pattinson was on, I think then we talked about how every decision he's made since being in Twilight was to make him less of a movie star.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Whereas you can't get a bigger movie star at the moment than Zendaya. She's just absolutely huge. But maybe Robert Pattinson is now becoming a movie star again.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, but, but the film plays very much like an indie, a 24, you know, that, that kind of film.

[Simon Mayo]

So coming up after the the break, which is a very entertaining thing, unless, of course, you're a subscriber, Mark is going to be doing Super Mario Galaxy Movie Fuse 2026, and our special guest is going to be Hugh Bonneville talking about that TV show. Plus the Laughter Lift, which Mark loves very much indeed. The jokes are going to reach new levels this week.

[Mark Kermode]

Excruciating.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. On the way.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

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[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark Kermod?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

When we first started our journey in Wizardtainment, did you worry that people might not listen or care about what we had to say?

[Mark Kermode]

I did. What if we made fools of ourselves.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, thankfully it turns out people love it specifically when we make fools of ourselves. So we needn't have worried.

[Mark Kermode]

That's good because we're very good at that.

[Simon Mayo]

That said, wouldn't it have been great if there'd been something like Shopify to help us get started? Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started.

[Mark Kermode]

Get the word out like you have a top marketing team behind you and easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your custom customers are scrolling or strolling.

[Simon Mayo]

It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your one pound per month [e-mail] take.

[Mark Kermode]

That's shopify.co.uk take.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so now it's the time to the box office top ten.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Mark.

[Simon Mayo]

Excellent at number ten. Number seven in America. Scream seven.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And it's on its way out and not a moment too soon.

[Simon Mayo]

Number nine. Number 26 over there, how to make a killing.

[Mark Kermode]

So this is in its third week. So this is the last week that it will be troubling the box office. I just hope that everybody goes to see Kind Hearts and Coronets goes to see it. Sees it. It'll be on streaming services and television and you know, that is the superior film. Obviously.

[Simon Mayo]

More on Mark's attitude to that, to this film later in the show.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Yep, number eight. Nothing in America but number eight here. Mother's Pride.

[Mark Kermode]

There it is.

[Simon Mayo]

Maybe the last week, but doing pretty well.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it's, you know, look, it is, it's the Fisherman's Friends of Pubs and it, it is exactly the film that you think it is and that is perfectly fine.

[Simon Mayo]

Number, number seven here. Number five in America. New entry. They will kill you.

[Mark Kermode]

So this is a kind of riotously blood splattered comedy horror adventure romp which, which I enjoyed. I mean I enjoyed. I couldn't remember anything about it almost five minutes afterwards, but whilst I was watching it, I enjoyed it. There is of course the question of Patricia Arquette's accent, which we played a clip from last week and I said to you, what accent do you think that is? It was apparently Irish.

[Simon Mayo]

This is an email from Aman Simon and Mark. Long term list, occasional emergency mailer. I came away more confused than anything else. The main issue is that it never really decides what it wants to be. It flirts with horror, leans into dark comedy at times and tries to inject a bit of stylized, almost Kill Bill type Flair. But none of it properly lands as a horror. It's not scary. There's tension in places, but no real payoff. It certainly didn't pass the six laugh test. And there just aren't enough genuine moments that land. And when it tries to be cool and stylized, it ends up feeling more like a low rent imitation than something with its own identity. It's frustrating because there are glimpses of a better film in there. But it needed a clearer tone, tighter writing and more confidence in what it was trying to be.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, I mean I enjoyed it more than you did. I mean I think, I think it's no masterpiece, as I said. I think it, it clearly takes from a lot of other films. Absolutely. And it doesn't rewrite the rule book in any way. But whilst it was playing I enjoyed it and I was. I think it's kind of Friday night popcorn fodder which I've got with. There is a time and a place for. Well, Friday night obviously.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, obviously. Number six here, Number six over there is ready or not to here I come. Rich Ellis says, I enjoyed every minute. It picks up straight after the original and builds steadily to a wonderfully wild finale. Elijah Wood looks like he's having the time of his life. Samara Weaving and Catherine Newton have completely believable sibling chemistry. Walking that love hate line within. I appreciated that no one suddenly became superhumanly competent and that the self serving characters who'd sold their souls for luxury were fittingly rather stupid. And as someone who had total eclipse of the heart at his wedding, one sequence brought me particular joy with feminists of all hair colors. Down with Nazis and their cosplayers.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it and it's, it, it's, it's better than we had a right to expect considering that the original was, was a while ago and again was a bit of a surprise treat. So yes, I enjoyed number five and

[Simon Mayo]

four over there is reminders of him

[Mark Kermode]

which a reminder that Colleen Hoover is becoming the Nick Sparks of today. And that in itself is no bad thing. I think it's a very baggy sentimental story that is lifted a little bit by the fact that it's got very good performances that kind of, that raise the material. Michael Monroe for example I think is terrific in it at number four in

[Simon Mayo]

the uk, number three in the States. Durandar the Revenge.

[Mark Kermode]

Now I said last week this wasn't press screen. Then I asked if anyone had seen it to send in an email. Do we have an email?

[Simon Mayo]

No. Well, there we are and that's that number three here. Two over there is Hoppers.

[Mark Kermode]

Not the best Pixar, but not the best. Pixar is still pretty good.

[Simon Mayo]

And number two is a new entry and that's the Magic Faraway Tree. So here's some emails.

[Mark Kermode]

Can I just say I like it. I liked it very much. And somebody forwarded me a thing from whatever Twitter is now called. X. Yeah, that apparently Simon Farnaby had said that he listened to the show and he was very pleased that we liked it.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, here is an email from Rosie Grace. Dear Silky and the Angry Pixie. Me and dad went to see the Magic Faraway Tree as our first cinema trip of the year.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, fab.

[Simon Mayo]

Three exclamation marks. And we loved it. Three exclamation marks. I was really nervous because I love the books and something in blighton adaptations I've seen are not really good, but I really love this film. Three exclamation marks. I didn't stick. It didn't stick the closest to the book, but it really captured the spirit of the book. Five exclamation marks. It was so much fun. Me and dad laughed all the way through. Six exclamation marks. My favorite character was definitely Saucepan Man. Yeah, I laughed every time I saw him and when he misheard everything. And I loved the Land of the Sweets. And I could have gone down the slippery slip all day. Forget the lands, I'd have just gone up and down the tree all day. I did miss the squirrels at the bottom of the slippery slip to take the cushions back up to the top. But that's just me being obsessed with gray squirrels and the slippery slip.

[Mark Kermode]

Can I say, although it didn't look

[Simon Mayo]

exactly as I've imagined it, it was a really good film. Brilliant film. I really enjoyed your review. Thank you. Best fishes. I mean wishes. Two crying emoji, laughing faces.

[Mark Kermode]

Rosie Grace, that's fantastic. Thank you, Rosie. And thank you for all the exclamation marks. One of the. One of my favorite kegs in the film, I don't know whether it's in the book, is the Saucepan man. And he says, why are you covered in saucepans? And he goes, because I'm saucepan man. Duh.

[Simon Mayo]

When I did my first adult book, as opposed to a YA book or children's book, the first note from my editor, my very wise editor, was too many exclamation marks.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, really?

[Simon Mayo]

You can have them in children's fiction and ya, but, you know, fewer, please.

[Mark Kermode]

Do you think that in the script for Project Hail Mary Amaze. Amaze. Amaze has exclamation marks.

[Simon Mayo]

I think it absolutely has to. More of that in a moment. Hugh says Medium term List the first time Emailer Excitement was high. The kids gasping at the giant screen, settling into our seats, handing around popcorn. Pure joy. Just under 30 quid for two adults and two kids. The perks of the Northeast. We all loved it. It has that Paddington Wonka sheen and looks marvelous. It's undeniably silly, but engaging. Engaging enough that I genuinely cared how it ended. We've been reading the books to my 5 year old, so this was also her first why doesn't it look like my imagination moment. Thankfully she approved of the design. Some moments were surprisingly moving and the theme of family reconnecting after drifting into tech induced distance is genuinely touching. Claire Foy is wonderful, Andrew Garfield hits exactly the right tone and the rest do what's needed. My two found bits. My my two found bits. A little scary, okay, but their peril threshold is low. We once had to stop the Paw Patrol movie for being too spicy. Ooh, a perfect family film. Go see it. Usual send offs.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

Wow. Okay, and here we this is from Nigel MSc in Mining Geology and 6/10 of the way to a 10 meter front crawl badge in 1986. Which presumably means you didn't make it. Ganid Blyton Yes, I think this was your main reveal from last week. My delight at discovering I wasn't the only child confused by the font on the front of her books. However, I went a step further than Mark and had additional challenges with the why, thus spent many years thinking it was Gnid Bluton. More of that kind of thing later. And number one in the US and number one in the uk. And clearly it's going to be one of the biggest selling movies of the year. If not the biggest. Yes is of course Project Hail Mary, which I have now seen.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh great, great.

[Simon Mayo]

But first of all, Phil from the teachers trenches in the church. Dear Rocky and Adrian, Last Friday I was sitting in a packed screening of Project Hail Mary at my local independent cinema, the island in sunny Litham St. Anne's, accompanied by Child one, when my inner classroom pedant happily clocked in for duty. For context, I am a science teacher of some 26 years, which absolutely does not make me a scient. If it did, I'd be earning far better money doing some actual science rather than explaining it to Year seven on a wet Thursday. Two moments leapt out. Firstly, early on, when the astrophage organism is being examined on Earth on the warship or in the war room, a scientist asks whether it reproduces by mitosis or meiosis. Unless I've been misleading generations of pupils, nothing reproduces by meiosis that produces these haploid Is it gametes? I think it is reproductive cells in animals and plants. So sperm and egg cells. They would be haploid gametes anyway, not a new organism. The intent is clear, but the wording gave me a quiet biological eyebrow raise. Surely the world's best scientists know better than me. Secondly, later aboard the Hail Mary, when Grace analyzes material from Rocky and the system identifies xenon, he dismisses it with with Xenon is a gas, which it is at standard conditions, but in space, at sufficiently low temperatures, xenon can quite happily be solid via a straightforward state change. At this point, I may have murmured a code compliant state change into my popcorn to the mild concern of child one. Having read the book, as is standard practice for science geeks, we know the source material gets the science spot on. Which makes these little moments all the more enjoyable to spot. It feels very much in the spirit of your excellent Wrong hawk, Wrong swimming stroke tradition. And frankly, it's one of the most fun bits of the podcast, apart from the excellent redactors, laughter lift, tickety tonks and old fruits. Loving the show. Steve from Phil in the teachers trenches of the church.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. Wow. Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

So packed. Screening around the corner, which was great. I don't think I'd been around the corner since James Bond just out of COVID Wow. And I quite enjoyed it. Oh, I would say.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay. That's slightly.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. For particular context, I finished the book three hours before I went to see the film.

[Mark Kermode]

Right.

[Simon Mayo]

Which I think is very much part of the way I saw the film. So for me, in the book, the comedy from the main character Grace, makes the science bearable because the science is non stop, as Phil the science teacher has just mentioned. And it's the juxtaposition of the two that makes the story great. I found the film annoyingly goofy. So that when you take out the science. Because obviously that rumination is what we don't get. We so. So for example, when Grace, the Ryan cousin character takes control of the spaceship for the first time. Yeah. It jerks around like it's a kid driving a remote control car. Yeah, that what I just thought. Oh, okay, this is. I just thought it was goofy when it wasn't necessary. So I'm now going to. Unless you censor this later, I'm going to talk about the ending without talking about the ending.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, sure.

[Simon Mayo]

In the book, I thought the ending was very clever. Appropriate and nicely. And nicely worked out and satisfactory in the movie. It felt like an episode of the. Of the Muppet Show. And I thought, oh, okay, that's not quite right.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

So that was, that was. That was my take. So, you know, I enjoyed it as a cinematic experience.

[Mark Kermode]

Good for it.

[Simon Mayo]

And Ryan Gosling is great.

[Mark Kermode]

I haven't read the book. Is the ending of the film substantially different to the book?

[Simon Mayo]

No, no, it's almost exactly the same, but when you.

[Mark Kermode]

But when you saw it on screen, you thought it was like an episode of the Muppet Show. But when you read it in the book, it read differently.

[Simon Mayo]

Yep.

[Mark Kermode]

But narratively the same thing happens.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, narratively the same. That's why. That's why I said I was influenced by the fact I just finished the book.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow. Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

And I thought, you know, I thought it was great and it was well worked, but I was disappointed. I was so. I was.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

I was only disappointed just because everyone has been raving about it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And. And online giving it lots of thumbs down, which is, of course, an in joke, because that's what Rocky thinks is thumbs up.

[Mark Kermode]

Up. Oh, right. Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Fist, My bump and so on. And I love all the in jokes. Amazement. I could have done with more of that, but mainly I think it was the fact that because you get less science, it felt too goofy and.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

That was my take on it.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. I mean, one thing I would say about this is I went in to see it knowing nothing about it at all and with a slightly heavy heart because I just, you know, I. It was a late screening and. And then I loved it. You went in having had weeks of me telling you how fabulous it was and everybody else telling you how fabulous it was and having just read the book and you were slightly disappointed. And I think that does tell us something that we do always need to remember is the circumstances under which you see a film are significant. I would say, for example, in the case of the drama which we just reviewed, part of what I really enjoyed about it was, as Tim Roby said, do you know the twist? I didn't even know there was a twist. I didn't even know there was something that I didn't know. In the. In the Donald Rumsfeld sense, it was the unknown unknowns, you know, so that is important. I. I just. This is what I think is most important about it. It is big hearted and kind, and I think right now we could do with more of that.

[Simon Mayo]

No, absolutely. I absolutely agree with that. But I was just given how meticulous the science is in the book. When the spaceship ship jerks around just because he's driving it badly, I thought, come on, this is. That's you'd never see anything move in space like that. I mean, I know a lot about spaceships and you know the most.

[Mark Kermode]

I know the most about spaceships.

[Simon Mayo]

But anyway, I'm still glad that it's there and Ryan Gosling can do no wrong, clearly.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

[e-mail] will have further discussion on films that have been out for a while in the overflow car park, which is part of Take two. Available ad free on Patreon Patreon. We'll be back with some Hugh Bonneville in just a moment.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

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[Simon Mayo]

Spring Black Friday is on at the Home Depot. Save on grills and patio sets that will be sure to bring your hosting game up a notch. Fire up your feast with help from the Home Depot and save on grills like the next grill 4 burner propane gas grill was 249. Now in special buy for $199 or give everyone the best seat in the yard with the Hampton bay Mayfield park four piece conversation set for only $399. Save on grills and patio sets with low prices guaranteed during Spring Black Friday only at the Home Depot now through April 22nd while supplies last exclusion supplies. See home depot.com pricematch for details. Okay, so it's Hugh Bonneville time known obviously for his stage work at the National Theatre, Royal Shakespeare Company and on the west end Shadowlands until the 9th of May. Plus of course Downton Abbey, Paddington, Notting hill, Mansfield park, glorious 39. Breathe. I mean, these are just some of the highlights, Iris, the Monuments Men, the gold I came by 2012 and now 2026.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Will.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, hey.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yeah,

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, I found you. Yeah.

[Hugh Bonneville]

I wonder where you were.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, no, I'm here. Yes.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Could I ask you to do something for me?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Cool.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yeah, if you're not too busy at the moment.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, yeah, no worries.

[Hugh Bonneville]

You're cool I'm about to go into a meeting in the meeting room.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Hugh Bonneville]

What I was thinking was if you could wait a bit and then bring me in a coffee in about 10 minutes time.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, cool. A coffee?

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yes, you know, from the machine.

[Simon Mayo]

Cool.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Actually, no, five minutes, actually.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Hugh Bonneville]

And that might be better.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, it's better, yeah.

[Hugh Bonneville]

You know, maybe a couple of biscuits or something. Something, you know.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Hugh Bonneville]

I mean, that would be great.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, cool. So what, like into the meeting?

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Hugh Bonneville]

No, you don't have to say anything. You don't have to knock or anything. You just bring it in and then go out again. That's all. Yeah, if that's okay.

[Simon Mayo]

And that is a clip from the new series 2026. Hugh Bonneville stars again as Ian Fletcher. Hugh, hello. How are you, sir?

[Hugh Bonneville]

Very good to talk to you again, Simon.

[Mark Kermode]

It's very.

[Simon Mayo]

It's very nice to see you. I think you were just. I think the last time you were on the show it was for Paddington in Peru and you were surrounded. And you were surrounded by ferns and jungle paraphernalia. So this is a lot. This is a lot calmer this time. So Ian Fletcher, back from 2012 and W1A, as Ian would, would have it, this is the kind of thing he would say, take us on the journey that we're experiencing together on this series.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Well, once, once Ian had risen to the heights of head of values at the. Which unfortunately were eventually outsourced so that he had to depart. He did have a patch with the national obesity institution, but that didn't really go anywhere. So he's now been, after the very sudden departure of the director of integrity at FIFA, he's been parachuted in almost as his predecessor tried to parachute out. And so he's come into really a dead man's shoes, so to speak, and he's got big shoes to fill to try and steer the team, the oversight team, towards the opening ceremony of the 2026 World Football World Cup. Sorry, I should say soccer World cup, because that could get confusing. Bearing in mind that the three host nations are Mexico, Canada and the usa, who, if not yet at war, at least could be, say, sometimes are at loggerhead. So it's a very interesting path for Ian to navig this current climate.

[Simon Mayo]

Now, you mentioned the World cup and you mentioned FIFA. Now, I've seen the two episodes and each time FIFA or the World cup comes up, it's bleeped. From which I concluded that FIFA's lawyers have made it very clear that they don't want this to be the World cup or FIFA.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yes. I think there are certain parameters which I'm not entirely clear about. I mean, it's beyond Ian Fletcher's remit to understand these things, but I think the overmentioning of the institution and indeed the whole tournament can get into murky waters. So I think probably the executives on the show decided it might be just easier to bleep everything.

[Simon Mayo]

Right. So it's FIFA adjacent, it's World cup adjacent, but it's still a world tournament that's based in America, Mexico and Canada.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yes, you can't copyright that. So, yeah, it's a big old football tour tournament that's happening. Opening on June 10th. I think the opening ceremony is on June 10th. So, yeah, with this. The cameras have been following the oversight team over several months leading up to this. This. This great opening ceremony.

[Simon Mayo]

It's a wonderful show and a memory about how painful the previous two have been.

[Mark Kermode]

The joy.

[Simon Mayo]

The joy of it for me is that the. The last one W1A, I had to stop watching because it was too much like real life. Now it's exactly. It's exactly the same stuff, but now with international actors. So tell me about what it was like doing this show, written, of course, by John Morton, who's done and has written and produced all of these, but now working with American actors and Mexican actors, because it feels a very British show which has now gone international.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Absolutely. And I mean, what we were blessed with was a team of actors who loved, luckily 2012 W1A. So they were absolutely up for it and knew. Knew John's style and his, you know, his writing style and his directing style. What they hadn't quite anticipated was quite how hard it is to do because every, um. And is scripted. And the pace of the thing as we sit around these boardroom tape, meeting room tables is quite relentless. Added to which we were filming in probably the hottest part of last summer in a. In a studio that wasn't designed to be a studio. It was a former printing press and. And so air conditioning was a. Was a sort of foreign word, and we were just incredibly hot a lot of the time. So the pressure on those sort of meeting room scenes brought an added dimension. But the cast were. Are wonderful. We became a very tight little team. We have Alexis, who's notionally from Belgium, he's actually French. And then we have a Canadian. We have two Americans and we have a Mexican. And this really does add to the wonderful international, you know, the international joke, if you like, of each country rooting for its Own. Own side.

[Simon Mayo]

Can you compare doing a scene for this show for 2026 and, say, doing Downton or any other TV show that you've done, in terms of learning, learning what you have to say, reacting to the other actors in your scene and just getting.

[Mark Kermode]

Getting through the thing.

[Simon Mayo]

How does this compare with all of the other? This.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Well, it's. It's a very different thing. I mean, in terms of the sort of energy of the thing. I always used to think of Downton Abbey as a stately galleon, and this is a sort of jet ski. You know, it's whizzing around the bay at full pelt. It's probably that. It is the hard. Definitely the hardest job I've ever done in terms of learning, because a lot of the dialogue doesn't make sense and you are learning. You know, there's a difference between yes, no, but, and. But, no, yes. You know, and the little ticks of the ticks of character and the ticks of dialogue that John Morton is so brilliant at skewering, they're really quite hard to get into one's brain. So I was. I was, you know, I've been, for some reason, doing the show on and off for 15 years now, and we. In its three different incarnations, and it doesn't get any easier the older you get, put it that way.

[Simon Mayo]

Because in the edit, it feels like it's almost improv. You know, it feels like parts of it are improvised.

[Hugh Bonneville]

It really does look like that. And it. And that's. That's the. That's the pleasure of watching it back. It's. It's. It's a bit like root canal. When it stops, you think, oh, that's a good job done, you know, but at the time. Time you think, what the heck's going on? And it is painful to film. It really, genuinely is. I mean, it's. I used to have sleepless nights, literally, but when I watch the finished product and it looks so effortless and it looks improvised and it looks natural, then, you know, job done, really. But that's down to the skill of the team and. And John's brilliant editing and his. You know, he's had this. The same editor throughout who just really is able to make it, stitch it all together, even though we. There were plenty of bumps and scrapes along the way. So it's a. It's a. It's. It's been a. It's always a tough one to do, but it's always a pleasure to watch.

[Simon Mayo]

And of course, it's not really about the World cup at all, in the same way that W1A wasn't really about the BBC in 2012, wasn't really about the Olympics. It's about bureaucracy and lofty goals and all that kind of nonsense that we have to sit through. Would that be fair?

[Hugh Bonneville]

Fair? I think it's absolutely fair. I mean, they're both, all three iterations are great backdrops against which you see the playing out of basically management strategies that are destined to go wrong, particularly because your team, you know, has got their own vested interests or indeed wasn't listening when the question was posed, you know, and will you do it by Thursday? And you just know in your heart of hearts that that that's not going to happen. So I think we've all been in those meetings and as I've said before, you know, everyone has been on either a parish church council or, or a FTSE 100 boardroom, you know, will recognize the dynamics of, as you say, big ambitions and, but always having to manage one's expectations, particularly when there are other agendas, you know, afoot. You know, for example, in the opening episode, we're trying to decide where the, one of where the semi finals are going to take place. And there's a lot of, of back and forth about that. And then of course, suddenly it's just decided, you know, from overhead, from above our heads. It's been decided by someone higher up the food chain. So all that work and all that stress and energy is, has been, you know, has not. Has been wasted, in effect. But there are big ideas, you know, there's the whole sustainability thread again of, you know, if we could just use more toilets in the stadiums, they could be carbon neutral and that sort of thing. So there's some lovely absurdities that John Morton is very, very always very good at picking up on the sort of dottiness of life and but actually, you know, let's be honest, you could not have written, I mean, if he'd written an episode in which the football organization gives a peace prize to one of the presidents of one of the countries, they, he would have said, that's too ridiculous. We can't do that.

[Simon Mayo]

And presumably that's why this show will work, Hugh, and I think it will, having seen two episodes, is that although this is a fraught with problems, the World cup is fraught. You know, we all know that about the kind of person Trump is. We know about the, what's happening. You know, we're currently, there's a war in Iran at the moment. We know about the tariffs, but that is very much in the background. That's not really what you're. What you're dealing with and who. Whatever happens in those difficult areas, this show will still work because it's not really about them.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Absolutely.

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Hugh Bonneville]

I mean, there are references to the real world, obviously, and to, you know, iconic footballing characters, you know, are referred to. To. But as you say, it's not really about the real world. It's actually about the interaction of characters and the sort of hierarchy within. Within the team. And it even down to which desk Ian Fletcher sits at. And that becomes a little ballet of its own when he realizes that he's been plonked by his supposedly junior, but actually turns out to be his effective senior. You know, plonking him at a desk that's in the middle of the bullpen, if you like. And so Ian has to navigate his way to a desk, you know, that's got a bit more prominence as far as he's concerned. So it's all those minutiae of office politics. There's, you know, how to use the coffee machine, who gets to use the coffee machine, whose biscuits you're allowed to use, you know, who gets the better biscuits. So I think, you know, we. We could all have fun identifying, you know, those characters.

[Simon Mayo]

Ballet is a. Ballet is a very good word as well, because even the excruciating meetings where you feel as though you want to bash your head against the wall, it is. That's what it is. It's a ballet, isn't it, with being performed by a. By a group of people with various solos chipping in.

[Hugh Bonneville]

That's right. And there. And the. And trying to make it all appear effortless and intentional, where, of course, there's usually various wheels coming off as the machine rolls along, interrupted by a very, you know, willing assistant trying to bring in coffee, it becomes about. It becomes about a battle of who's got the better coffee and whose assistant is better at bringing it in. So, again, all those little details. One, while the main motor of the show is running, I think, you know, delicious little observations about office life and

[Simon Mayo]

office dynamics, what does the Director of Integrity actually do?

[Hugh Bonneville]

Oh, God, basically herds cats. You know, it's his role to try and streamline all the objectives, you know, be it discussing if a problem comes up with a potentially a problem with a Chinese chip in an American football, how. How to swing the PR on that.

[Simon Mayo]

Right.

[Hugh Bonneville]

You know, if. When. When there's a confusion over who is going to be the ambassador, the sort of public figure Public facing ambassador for the tournament and it seems that two people have been contracted and anyone can actually do it. So there's a bit of an issue there. It's trying to. So basically to streamline any wrinkles that appear in the. In the pitch, if you like. The pitch of life.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think we're speaking to you. I think you're. Are you doing Shadowlands at the moment?

[Hugh Bonneville]

I am, yes. Yeah, that's right. At the Old witch.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. So your head is somewhere else, really?

[Hugh Bonneville]

It is rather. Yes, yes. My head is certainly in. In the world of C.S. lewis and Narnia in the evenings and. And then dipping into 2026 at the moment to ahead of its launch.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yeah. I. I saw Nigel Hawthorne in the lead.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Oh, wow.

[Simon Mayo]

A couple of decades ago and interviewed Anthony Hopkins as well when he did it. It's an astonishing. It's an astonishing piece, isn't it?

[Hugh Bonneville]

It's.

[Mark Kermode]

It's.

[Hugh Bonneville]

It's a beautiful piece about love and loss and grief and coming to terms with. With. With all those things that we. We all encounter at some point in our lives. If we can't escape it, it's going to happen to us. And it's a. It's a beautiful story, you know, based on the true story of C.S. lewis falling in love, his beloved contracting a terminal illness and how. How they navigate. How they navigated that. But it's. It's about, you know, challenging one's own faith, one's own resilience, about how you cope with. With loss. And in C.S. lewis's case, it was. It was devastating. He actually wrote a. A book called A Grief Observed, which was a sort of memoir about his own passage through grief, which he published anonymously. And people kept giving it to him, saying, I think this might help you in your. In your journey. And of course, it was his own work. So it's a. It's a. It's a thoughtful and beautiful piece. I wish I'd seen Nigel. In fact, I'm probably glad I didn't see Nigel Hawthorn, because it would have been. I know how brilliant it was.

[Simon Mayo]

He was. He was absolutely wonderful. In the week that we're speaking, Hugh, the hereditary peers have finally been kicked out of the House of Lords. Just wonder what the Earl of Grantham would have made of that.

[Hugh Bonneville]

He said, oh. He'll probably say, oh, well, I missed the steak and kidney puddings, probably.

[Mark Kermode]

If he.

[Hugh Bonneville]

If indeed he ever went to the Lords. I don't think he. We ever saw him do that, but, oh, well, A new era. Well, I'm sure it'll be a vastly improved system now. I can't even remember what's happening now

[Simon Mayo]

in terms of as we look forward to. To 2026 and the fact you described doing it as like having root canal surgery. Dare I mention the 2028 Olympic Games? Because it's kind of coming down the tracks.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Oh, my gosh, I can't imagine that. But, you know, as Ian Fletcher often says, you know, every problem is just a solution waiting to happen. And I'm sure the LA Olympics in 2028 will offer a huge solution to everyone.

[Simon Mayo]

Hugh, it's always a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you very much indeed for your.

[Hugh Bonneville]

You.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank Time Time.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Lovely to chat.

[Simon Mayo]

All the best, Hugh Bonneville. I thought it was fascinating because when he started talking about C S Lewis really came to life. He was really, really. I mean, that's. As he said, that's where his head is, that's what he's doing every night. And that's going to dominate your thoughts. Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

But might I point out that I thought it was almost ungentlemanly of you to say, well, I saw Nigel Hawthorne doing the role and I interviewed Anthony Hopkins about it, which is a bit like, like, so what are you doing?

[Simon Mayo]

Unfortunately, I have. I mean, I would like. I would like to have seen it, but think about just the time. The thing about that interview with Anthony Hopkins that I remember is that there is a bit in. In the movie where C S Lewis breaks down.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. It's one of the most famous scenes from the film.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. And I just asked him about it, wondering whether he had a particular process or, you know, whether he thought of sad things or whatever. And he. I just remember him sort of being utterly disdainful about the question because it's just, you know, it was just acting as far as he was concerned. It was just something that he could do because he is Anthony Hopkins. Yeah. But it is. It is an astonishing scene and it's a great role and I'm sure Hugh Bonneville is perfect in it and as good. Every bit as good as Nigel.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it's just, you know, I remember when I stepped down from. From being film critic at the Observer, I said, if there's one thing that working at the observer taught me me, it was don't step into the shoes of somebody who everybody recognizes as having been probably the very best in the world. So I took over from Philip French and when I left, there was a whole bunch of tributes to Philip French from a number of filmmakers, including Martin Scorsese, who used the word irreplaceable.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, well, next time I won't make that. I think he was fine. I think he was okay.

[Mark Kermode]

He was good.

[Simon Mayo]

He was good about it because it's, it's an extraordinary play. Anyway, he was on to talk about 2026, which is on. On the BBC.

[Mark Kermode]

Y. So.

[Simon Mayo]

And did you enjoy it?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, well, like you, I've seen two to the first two episodes. Like you, I had that really strange experience of W1A, of thinking, I. I almost can't watch this because it is too close to being. I mean, I know people always say that as a joke. You know, it's not a comedy, it's a documentary. But we've, we've said many times on this show about the time in which we were hauled into a meeting in the BBC in which somebody showed us a graph.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Graph.

[Mark Kermode]

And said that on this particular axis we were doing well because we, we scored 32. And we said, out of what? And they said, well, no, that's. That's not how it works. It's just that you've scored 32 and most other shows on this graph are 26. We went, yeah, but 32 out of what? And then it became evident that nobody in the room understood what the graphs

[Simon Mayo]

meant because 32 out of 40 is a pass and 32 out of 100

[Mark Kermode]

is not doing so well. Which was why it was very funny when you said to him, him, what does the director of Integrity do? And he burst out laughing because obviously in. In 2012, he was head of Deliverance of the. He was head of Deliverance of the Olympic Deliverance Commission. And in W1A, he was famously, and I think this will go down in his Head of Values, which is absolutely

[Simon Mayo]

a role which probably does exist.

[Mark Kermode]

Probably does exist. And I suspect that Head of Better exists as well. So it was really interesting hearing him talking about just how almost Pinteresque the dialogue is in terms of the ums, the ers, the ahs, are all absolutely scripted. And I think the phrase he said was that there is a difference between but yes or but yes. And that is exactly what anybody who's ever, you know, studied or watched Pinter knows is that every single pause, every single stumble, none of it is improvised at all. It is down to the very last detail. It is specified. When William Friedkin made a film of a Pinter play, when he did the Birthday Party, he showed the first cut to Pinter, and Pinter said, well, that's not my play. And it Turned out they had switched two words in it, that they then had to go back and re. Switch in order for it to be done. And I think it's. We've always had this thing about the more fun people have making things, often the less fun people have watching them. And I think in the case of this, it is entirely fitting that it was very, very painful to make. Very, very hot and very, very hard to remember the stu. All that pain pays off. On the subject of not mentioning FIFA or the World Cup, I actually think that's one of the funniest jokes. And even whether or not FIFA or the World cup actually had any legal restraint on the use of it. The fact that every time David Tennant. And God bless David Tennant as the narrator, because he is just fantastic as the narrator in this returning narrator, every time he says and then it's bleeped and world and then it's bleeped, I laughed out loud because we all know what it is. And also there is just something about a word beginning with F being bleeped. But it's the joke about not being able to say FIFA or World cup is consistently funny.

[Simon Mayo]

And from my point of view, you know, one of the reasons I'm not particularly looking forward to the World cup is because it's run by FIFA for.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

You know, who are just so. Who are just so appalling. So, yeah. I think as opposed to W1A, where you kind of might wish the organization well, which we do.

[Mark Kermode]

Or which we.

[Simon Mayo]

Olympics at 2012, where you kind of hope that it was going to be great. As it turned out. As it turned out, it was absolutely fantastic. Here you're just thinking, well, the basic organization you're defending is appalling.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

So who knows where that fits. But I think on the basis of two episodes, it's going to be another, you know, another wonderful and painful experience.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, I'm enjoying it very much. He's absolutely right. That of course, it's really. It's not to do with football. But then, of course, FIFA isn't really to do with football, is it? To do with a whole bunch of other things. I think I was very. I was delighted when Will turned up because I didn't know that Will was coming back. So. Yeah. No, yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And he missed it. Does Ms. Jason Watkins? I do think he's fantastic. He's obvious. I don't think he's in this series. He's certainly not in the first two episodes. But, you know, it is. It is a very good cast. When you were talking about Harold Pinter and changing two words and not recognize it in his own work, I went. I remembered the interview that I did with Martin McDona for Banshees of. In a sharing.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And how he famously, you know, he won't. He won't allow anything to change because he says, I'm the best screenwriter on set. So even if Colin Farrell was to say, could we change this? The answer is no. And if you write to him saying, you know, we're. We're putting on one of your plays for a school, can we change it? The answer is no, you can't. I have written it like this, and this is how you will perform it for a purpose.

[Mark Kermode]

And also, I mean, I have to say, the. The writing here is very good. I laugh out loud at VP optics and narrative just because it's one of those brilliant phrases. The. The thing when. When they accidentally kickstart the power of the poop campaign, which is just. Which is just ludicrous enough to be possible. The meetings in which people just talk endlessly about nothing at all. And then the. This isn't spoiling anything. There's a whole thing about climate and about how hot it is and whether or not it is safe during this heat. And they start trying to fudge a graph by turning a line into a zone. And then Hugh Bonneville's character suddenly gets this whole speech about how this could be the moment that will reframe the narrative and reinvent the story. And you go, yeah, we've all been in those meetings. It is funny, however, how with W1A, I know exactly what you mean. There was times when it wasn't funny because it was too close to home for me. The nice thing about this is it's far enough away from home and I have enough contempt for the organization that it is involved in to just find it funny.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. One of our neighbors who's very high up in one of the most eminent museums in the UK, always said how much he loved W1A because it was just like working in museums, you know, so that it's funny because it's true. That's. And that's what it is. And people recognize it.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so. And that. So that is new. And that'll be on BBC and it'll be on iplayer time now, as if that wasn't funny enough to furiously press the up button and step into the best love part of the show, the laughter lift, which starts, unusually, with an email from Jeff in Mexico, Mark has a particular disdain for the phrase elevated horror. Yet surely the laughter lift is elevated comedy. Discuss.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey.

[Simon Mayo]

Though we could be going down.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, and in many ways we are.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Hey, Mark, a dogmatic theology joke for you first this week. I know how you love those. Where do you find a cat that's half good and half bad?

[Mark Kermode]

In Schrodinger's. No, I don't know.

[Simon Mayo]

Purgatory.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh,

[Simon Mayo]

I thought he was going to be Schrodinger, but it's not.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark, I went to the doctors a couple of weeks ago with a bit of an embarrassing condition. Doctor, I said I. I can't help. I can't stop letting one go. Every time I float an air biscuit, they're silent with absolutely no smell. But I've let out 20 trouser trumpets in the past five minutes. She gave me some pills and told me to come back the following week, which I did.

[Mark Kermode]

Don't.

[Simon Mayo]

Doctor, I've been taking these pills as directed for my excessive cheese cutting. The Fizzlers are still 100 silent, but now they absolutely reek. Great, says the doctor. We've cleared your sinuses. I booked you in for hearing test next week. It's a long. A long setup.

[Mark Kermode]

It was for that. It was. But I just enjoyed all the euphemisms for farting. Well done.

[Simon Mayo]

Some of which I'd never come across before.

[Mark Kermode]

You've obviously not never read Viz magazine.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I was a. I was a strip in Viz magazine, so it wasn't.

[Mark Kermode]

Were you?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. Simon Mayonnaise or something like that.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, yeah, I was. I was. Mark Commode's movie Bloopers.

[Simon Mayo]

What's still to come? Mark?

[Mark Kermode]

Reviews of the Super Mario Galaxy movie, which is exactly what it sounds like, and Fuse, which is a thriller.

[Simon Mayo]

On the way,

[Hugh Bonneville]

You tell yourself no

[Simon Mayo]

one wants your college era band tees.

[Hugh Bonneville]

But on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back.

[Simon Mayo]

Sell them easily on Depop.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style. Style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

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[Simon Mayo]

Okay, got an email here from Orla who's in Ireland, which is a little vague, but there's no specific place. It's just Orla in Ireland. All the thanks for the email, Mark and Simon, a longtime listener, first time writing in I was introduced to your show during lockdown by a friend whose film knowledge rivaled that of Mark's and who loved sharing it with anyone who would listen. Also, like Mark, he had a real instinct for cinematography and storytelling, and while we couldn't get to the cinema during lockdown, we worked our way through your back catalog of recommendations, which was the perfect tonic. His passion for life went far beyond film. It showed up in music, art, brewing, boating, and in the way he brought people along with him. He was endlessly curious and made everything feel like an adventure, living life to the last drop. His name was Alex and he passed away last week. I just wanted to share this because your show was part of our friendship and those memories. They say those who shine brightest sometimes burn out quickest, but his warmth is still very much with us. Thanks as ever for what you do. All well, thank you very much indeed for telling us about Alex. We really appreciate that email correspondence at Kerman Abed okay, there is something else that is out and I'm not sure that I want to go and see it.

[Mark Kermode]

The Super Mario Galaxy movie, which is the animated sequel to the Super Mario Brothers movie, which was Based on the 2007 video game Super Mario Galaxy and the sequel and stuff. So if you remember, when I reviewed the 2023 Super Mario movie, I kind of. I liked it enough, not least because I am old enough to remember the live action 1990s Super Mario, the Bob Hoskins one, which, although you remember that, right?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yes, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean financially successful but absolutely awful in every way. And so the animated version was better. I mean it wasn't great by any means at all. I mean it was peppy and nippy and empty and very bright and shiny and obviously closer to the game than the live action version. Version feature the voices of Chris Pratt, Charlie Day, Anya Taylor, Joy, Jack Black, Keegan, Michael Key, all of whom return in this new movie with new cast members including Benny Safdie, Donald Glover and Bre Larson. So the other one was it was okay. What it wasn't was anything above okay, but okay was Enormously far above the previous installment in the series. So, as with the previous movie, the new Super Mario Galaxy movie is produced by Nintendo and Illumination. And because it is made by Illumination, that means it starts with an Illumination gag with Minions in it. Okay, so it started. Well, there's a Minions gag at the beginning, and I laughed. And I laugh because I find the Minions hilariously funny. And also because I understood the gag, because the gag made sense, which is more than can be said of the rest of the movie that followed. Now, for clarity, I'm going to tell you the official plot synopsis. Okay. Of the film, because there's literally no way that I can make any sense of this. So Mario and Luigi, the Twin Plumbers, apply their let's go attitude to solve everyday problems all over their new home of the Mushroom Kingdom. As they support Princess Peach and work to reform a miniaturized, imprisoned Bowser, they meet a new companion, Yoshi. Princess Peach's birthday party sparks a galactic adventure, sending the brothers into space to stop Bowser Jr's wicked ambitions and save Rosalina. Got that?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. It sounds. Sounds good. Great, good.

[Mark Kermode]

Here's a clip.

[Simon Mayo]

My Koopas, your king has returned. The Bowser name shall be feared once more.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, no. Everyone calm down.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

Toad, pack our things.

[Hugh Bonneville]

Let's go.

[Simon Mayo]

Let's go.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, Princess, you're going to regret that. So that kind of over cranked, hyperkinetic thing is pretty much the tone of the whole thing. And I remember talking about the previous animation saying, look, it's not the Lego Movie and it's not the Minions movie, but it's okay. But the thing about the Lego's, the Lego Movie, for example, is the Lego Movie was good for everybody. I mean, I think the amazing thing about it was when we heard it was happening, it was just like, how is that going to work? And then it was. It was absolutely great. The previous film had Easter egg jokes for people who are immersed in this world, which isn't me, but that's fine. In the case of this, they have leaned right into those jokes. And I only know this because people I know who would understand those Easter egg jokes have told me that they were there. Not least my friend Van, who's a film critic, who I saw the film with, who does know all those things, and then said, after the screening, said a whole bunch of words to me that literally meant nothing to me at all. So it's leaning towards a younger audience. Absolutely. And that's fine. Although I've seen films aimed at younger Audiences that I've got something out of. I mean, for example, the Magic Far Away Tree. Right now, this is PG for mild violence and threat, but it's loads and loads of sort of fan service, Easter egg stuff. Now, okay, that's fine. But I think that for any of these movies to be actually good, they have to do that stuff and work for those people, but they also have to work for the broader audience. And I have to tell you flatly that in the case of the broader audience being me, it didn't at all. And it didn't at all to the point that I confess and I. I'm ashamed of this because it's not something I'm proud of at all, but it's something that happens to older critics. I started to drift off because it just became noise. And my friend Van sent me a text, which I got, which I'm.

[Hugh Bonneville]

I'll.

[Mark Kermode]

I'll read to you. And you. You may have to bleep a word in it, I'm not entirely sure. But it said this. It said, hey, Mark, I have to ask, because I noticed you nodded off during a part of Mario Galaxy.

[Simon Mayo]

Wow.

[Mark Kermode]

But when you woke up, did you feel like you were tripping balls? And that, I think, was Van's way of saying, on the one hand I noticed that you were just resting your eyes, and on the other hand, when you were not resting your eyes, what did you make of all that madness? And I think the issue here is that it's. If you're going to do this properly, you do it in a way that makes sense to people who aren't immersed in the. And I understand the thing about Fanzo is, boy, I'm a horror fan. I know about horror fans talking to horror fans, and I understand that there is a market for that. I also understand that it's a big, shiny, you know, glimmery, explosive animation movie that. For the. For the particularly ill discerning or undiscerning, you know, it'll tick all the boxes and it'll probably do very well. It's not good. And certainly if you're not in. In any part of that, that. It is like that thing. As I said, I've used the phrase before about being shouted to sleep. And it was the middle of the day as well, so it wasn't even like. It was kind of at. At that. At that critical period. I just found it really spectacularly unengaging. Which is not to say that there aren't people who are going to get stuff out of it. If you get all the Easter eggs. If you're in that world, if you. Or if you just want shiny, bangy, crashy stuff, stuff, that's fine. And there were a couple of moments when I did chuckle, but I confess, it just was like being banged repeatedly in the face with a candy floss machine. It's kind of fun every now and then, but not for the length of a Movie.

[Simon Mayo]

[e-mail] what else is out?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, a completely different film, Fuse, which is a Sky Movies crime thriller written by Ben Hopkins, playing in cinemas, but also on sky and Now. And honestly, I presume that sky and now will be its primary platforms because it does look oddly televisual, despite being directed by David McKenzie, who's the Scottish filmmaker whose CV includes young Adam Hallen, Foe, Startup Hell or High Water, which I think you and I both love, and most recently Relay, which was that kind of twisty thriller with Riz Ahmed and which I. Which I really liked. So Sam Worthington was in that. Sam Worthington's Back Here, co starring with Alan, Aaron Taylor Johnson, Theo James Gugu and Butter Raw, who we really, really like, have liked since, you know, back in the days of Bell. So Aaron Taylor Johnson is a bomb disposal expert who is called in when an unexploded World War II bomb is uncovered on a busy construction site in the center of London. So they find this bomb, they have to lock everything down, have to evacuate everything, and they have to turn the power off, which, as anyone who's seen Die Hard knows, is the perfect cover for the kind of heist which can play out furtively in the middle of a lockdown down when they turn the electricity off. Here's a clip from the trailer we're on.

[Simon Mayo]

An old bomb's been discovered on a building site nearby.

[Hugh Bonneville]

This area is being evacuated.

[Mark Kermode]

We're in.

[Simon Mayo]

Mom, look at this.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

We need to investigate.

[Simon Mayo]

We think people could still be there. Cops are here. Go, go, go, go, go, go.

[Mark Kermode]

Stick to the plan.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

It appears that a massive bank job on Edgeware Road.

[Mark Kermode]

And you've got a bad feeling about it for very good reason. So look, this is. It's lively, watchable, fair. It's got plot twists which are outlandish as the range of accents that are employed by the. The various cast on screen. It's one of those films in which double crosses turn into triple crosses and everyone is pulling the wool over somebody's eyes. And, and, and there's lots of moments in which it's, oh, you didn't see that coming. Maybe some of it. You did, maybe some of it didn't. It is so solid, if unremarkable fare. It's perfectly entertaining. Friday Fair, although my own feeling was I can't imagine many people rushing to the cinema to watch it. I think it is something that's probably best viewed from the sofa, but as such it's perfectly decent and I enjoyed it.

[Simon Mayo]

And that is it for this week. This has been the Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Don Redactor Simon Paul. If you're not following the POD already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcasts, come and join us on Patreon for all the good stuff. Mark, what is your Film of the week?

[Mark Kermode]

By a country mile, My film of the week is the drama Back next

[Simon Mayo]

week with Brian Cox, the actor, not the scientist. We'll be talking about his new film, Glenn Rothen. I shall bestow a year's Ultra membership to science teacher Phil, who wrote to us about Project Hail Mary about his science teacher quibbles with the film Phil, you have a year's Ultra membership. You can get in touch correspondence.com thank you for for listening.

[Ad/Guest Voices]

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