Ryan Gosling on PROJECT HAIL MARY

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take

Episode: Ryan Gosling on PROJECT HAIL MARY
Date: March 12, 2026
Hosts: Mark Kermode & Simon Mayo
Podcast by: Sony Music Entertainment

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Overview

This episode focuses on the highly anticipated new sci-fi film "Project Hail Mary," based on Andy Weir's novel. Mark Kermode interviews star Ryan Gosling about his role and the making of the movie. The episode also features reviews of new releases ("Scarlet," "How to Make a Killing," "One Last Deal"), a rundown of the UK and US box office, listener correspondence, the ever-popular “Laughter Lift,” and ongoing playful banter about recurring podcast in-jokes and pop culture references.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ongoing Podcast Banter and In-Jokes (03:00–08:45)

• Mark and Simon riff on the confusion over similarly-named actors (Sarsgaard/Skarsgard/Sarsteds), highlighting the persistent running joke, which, according to them, is intentionally silly:
  • "We both understand that Peter Sarsgaard and Stellan Skarsgard, who have names that are not the same... are not related. It was a joke." (Mark, 06:22)
• The two also extend the joke to other surnames and British music, referencing The Beatles, The Jam, and more.
• Listener corrections and YouTube comments regarding previous episodes are addressed with humor and meta-commentary.

2. Reviews: New Releases

Scarlet – Animated Feature (14:33–21:23)

• Reviewed by Mark; directed by Mamoru Soda, this is a gender-swapped, meta reimagining of "Hamlet."
• Animation combines old-school 2D with modern CG; visually impressive but narratively muddled.
• Mark’s take: “Even the most charitable assessment of it is it is not up there with the director's best work. There are things in it that are arresting but it is kind of all over the place.” (20:38)
• Addresses broader themes: vengeance, forgiveness, and the cycle of violence.

How to Make a Killing – "Kind Hearts and Coronets" Remake (56:26–62:30)

• Mark reviews the Americanized remake starring Glen Powell.
• Remake described as “likable and at times entertaining, which is fine until you start thinking that it's a sort of, you know, remake... of a film that was really funny and really dark all at the same time. And this isn't in the same ballpark.” (61:05)
• Strong suggestion: Watch the original "Kind Hearts and Coronets" instead.

One Last Deal – Football Agent Chamber Drama (68:36–75:46)

• One-man stage-play feel, starring a prominent British soap star.
• Mark critiques the film’s visual style (“overwrought”), its closeness to the lead (“like spending 90 minutes up the nose of the lead actor”), and the contrived “acting showcase.”
• Remarkably, the actor is described as a “national treasure” but their career is recounted with barbed humour, referencing past controversies.
• Mark's final verdict: “It's 88 minutes long. It felt much longer,” and predicts a quick move to streaming services.

3. Feature Interview: Ryan Gosling on "Project Hail Mary" (42:07–52:41)

Introduction & Context (42:07–43:21)

• “Project Hail Mary” directed by Phil Lord and Christopher Miller, based on Andy Weir’s novel.
• Gosling plays Ryland Grace, a lone astronaut on a desperate mission to save Earth, forming an unlikely friendship with an alien named Rocky.

Gosling on Adapting the Book & Themes (44:12–45:25)

• Received the manuscript during the pandemic; saw it as “the most ambitious thing I’ve ever read or will ever do just felt like a Hail Mary in its own right.”
• “Andy has a really unique way of having something feel escapist... but also being a reminder of what we’re capable of as human beings. We make the impossible possible all the time. It’s kind of our thing.” (Ryan Gosling, 44:18)

Friendship & Humanity (“Silent Running” Comparison) (45:25–46:17)

• Mark draws parallels to the emotional heart of “Silent Running.”
• Gosling agrees: “It’s as human as it is alien. And it’s as intimate as it is vast and epic. You know, it’s really got this balance to it that’s hard to achieve, and it’s special.” (45:54)

Rocky and Practical Effects (46:35–48:55)

• Gosling details the technical and emotional development of Rocky, the alien.
• On creating authenticity: “It took like five puppeteers at all times... it was very impractical in lots of different ways. But so is their relationship, right?” (46:42)
• He credits puppeteer James Ortiz with helping bring warmth and improvisational life to Rocky.

Sandra Hüller’s Singing Scene (49:09–50:54)

• Mark praises Sandra Hüller, revealing a karaoke scene that becomes the “anthem of the film.”
• “She just smashed it out of the park. And that became, I think, one of the best scenes in the film... when you work with Sandra, you get all the things that you hope to get, but then you get all of these unexpected gifts.” (Ryan Gosling, 50:54)

On Sci-Fi Favorites and The Abyss (51:01–52:05)

• Gosling admits to loving “The Abyss,” drawing inspiration for “Project Hail Mary”: “I thought of that a lot while I was making this film... wanted to take the costume design in a similar direction.” (51:10)
• The underwater sacrifice/declaration-of-love scene in “The Abyss” becomes a touchstone for the kind of intense emotional moment Gosling aspires to.

Would He Go to Space for Real? (52:21–52:32)

• “Not at all. I want to pretend to go. I want to talk to people who’ve gone, but I don’t want to go. No, I like to pretend. I like to stay here and, and look up.” — Ryan Gosling (52:21)

Science Credibility (54:49)

• Mark asked Brian Cox about the science in “Project Hail Mary”: “He said, surprisingly well.”

Mark’s Unofficial Review (54:56)

• Mark strongly praised the film’s emotional impact: "It really made me happy. And frankly, things that really make you happy at the moment are in, you know, desperate need." (54:56)
• Full review to come in next week's episode.

4. UK & US Box Office Roundup (23:31–39:18)

• Peaky Blinders: The Immortal Man (23:31): Discussion on its standalone nature, limited release prior to Netflix.
• Sinners (#10), Secret Agent, Crime 101, Epic Elvis Presley in Concert, Goat, Mother's Pride, The Bride, Wuthering Heights (inverted commas!), Seven, and Hoppers.
• "Hoppers" (Operation Beaver in Sweden): Mixed listener and host reactions; emotional resonance for some, less so for others.

5. Listener Correspondence & Miscellany

• Long running jokes about celebrity relations, film trivia, and actor misattributions.
• Returning gags: "Lang may your lum reek," DIY etymology ("gardyloo"), and “sex with cars” references from “Crash.”
• Film industry transparency: “Why do we, the public, get to know what a film costs at all? Why do studios tell us how much they spent…?” (10:32)
• Praise for fun, engaging correspondence contributions; “Correspondent of the Week” award to friendly Edinburgh tour guide Jen (78:05).

6. The Laughter Lift (62:30–64:00)

• Simon and Mark’s signature pun-filled comedy segment, featuring a Doctor Who/Daleks joke:
  • “What do the Daleks say when they get on the 44A bus in Honiton? Exeter mate. Exeter mate. Exeter mate.” (63:00)
• Further groan-worthy but good-natured gags follow.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Skarsgard Joke:
  “Just to be absolutely clear, we both understand that Peter Sarsgaard and Stellan Skarsgard... are not related. It was a joke.” — Mark (06:22)
• On "Project Hail Mary’s" Themes:
  “Andy has a really unique way of having something feel escapist... but also being a reminder of what we’re capable of as human beings. We make the impossible possible all the time.” — Ryan Gosling (44:18)
• On Practical Effects & Rocky:
  “It took like five puppeteers at all times... it was very impractical in lots of different ways. But so is their relationship, right?” — Ryan Gosling (46:42)
• On Sandra Hüller Singing:
  “She just smashed it out of the park. And that became, I think, one of the best scenes in the film... the anthem of the film.” — Ryan Gosling (50:54)
• On Sci-Fi Favorites:
  “You know what film I really like, which is The Abyss. I thought of that a lot while I was making this film.” — Ryan Gosling (51:01)
• On Space Travel:
  “Not at all. I want to pretend to go... I like to stay here and, and look up.” — Ryan Gosling (52:21)
• On "How to Make a Killing":
  “If you know nothing about Kind Hearts and Coronets, go and watch Kind Hearts and Coronets. You might find this perfectly fine. Right, but you really should be watching another film.” — Mark (62:19)
• On "One Last Deal":
  “He is given the opportunity to take an overdose of acting pills. I mean, there is so much acting going on in the film. He has actually described this as kind of my Hamlet." — Mark (73:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------|------------| | Sarsgaard/Skarsgard Banter | 03:00–08:45| | Scarlet Review | 14:33–21:23| | Box Office Rundown | 23:31–39:18| | Interview Introduction & Context | 42:07–43:21| | Ryan Gosling Interview | 44:02–52:41| | Mark & Simon Decompress Post-Interview | 52:41–54:56| | How to Make a Killing Review | 56:26–62:30| | Laughter Lift | 62:30–64:00| | One Last Deal Review | 68:36–75:46|

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Recurring Themes & Tone

• Warmth and quick-witted, gently irreverent banter permeate the episode, often with self-aware callbacks and meta-commentary on both listener interactions and the often-perplexing world of film.
• Film as both escapism and reflection: Gosling and the hosts often point to cinema’s capacity for hope, empathy, and grappling with large-scale anxieties—even within glossy genre fare.
• Generous engagement with listeners: from direct email readings to interactive challenges and the “Correspondence of the Week” prize.

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Final Thoughts

For listeners who haven't tuned in, this episode offers an entertaining yet insightful breakdown of one of the year’s biggest sci-fi releases, filled with candid and sometimes eccentric host dialogue, film industry in-jokes, and the thoughtful presence of Ryan Gosling. Whether you’re here for the reviews, running gags, blockbuster insights, or Mark and Simon’s company, it’s a classic example of why "Kermode & Mayo's Take" remains a staple for film fans.

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Film of the Week:
“Scarlet” — For its striking visuals, despite a somewhat messy narrative (Mark Kermode, 78:05).

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Contact: [e-mail]
For additional content: extratakes.com

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

Hey, Mark, you know I'm really massive techie, right?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

If you saw me at my local coffee shop in Showbiz North London, you'd probably mistake me for Neo from the Matrix. Without the illegal hacking or sunglasses indoors, obviously.

[Mark Kermode]

What are you talking about? You're having some sort of breakdown? Do you actually even own a computer?

[Simon Mayo]

What I'm talking about, I'm on it now. Talking to you is the transformation my web browsing has been through. Now that I've got NORDVPN on all my devices, I use NORDVPN to keep my online activity safe with encryption, threat protection and dark web alerts to guard against hackers and to secure public WI fi.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, welcome to the future, Simon. I've been doing that for ages. And with one click, NORDVPN can change your device's virtual location so you can access all the things you need when you're abroad.

[Simon Mayo]

Unwrap a huge discount on NordVPN by heading to nordvpn.com take with our link.

[Mark Kermode]

You'll get an extra four months free on the two year plan and it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Check the link in the description.

[Simon Mayo]

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, a new to MUBI in the UK this March is the brilliant no Other choice from Park Chan Wook. If you're a regular listener of the show, you will have heard me reviewing the film and raving about it. Actually kind of struggling to describe it because it's a black comedy, it's a thriller, it's a social satire, it's about a man whose life starts to fall apart and he takes unreasonable measures to correct things. I was absolutely fascinated by it. I thought it was a terrific film and as I said, it's coming to MUBI in the UK from March 13th.

[Simon Mayo]

You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.comkermodenmayo that's M-U-B-I.com Kermit and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[Mark Kermode]

There really is no other choice.

[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus

[Mark Kermode]

reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film

[Simon Mayo]

and non film questions answered as best we can in Questions?

[Mark Kermode]

You can get all that extra stuff via Apple Podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3. That's your key.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm sorry, what is that?

[Simon Mayo]

Taxman.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, I see. Sorry. Fine. Figure out what you would. It's the beginning of Taxman. Yes, you're right. Well, equally, you could say it's the beginning of Start by the Jam, because Start is Tax Man.

[Simon Mayo]

It is, it is.

[Mark Kermode]

Just I don't think there's any.

[Simon Mayo]

But I don't think there's any kind of embarrassment about that, you know, thinking, yeah, it's on homage, your honor.

[Mark Kermode]

But what's that. What's the phrase is, you know, talent borrows, genius steals. And there is something about Start just going, okay, I'll just do. We'll just do tax. We'll just change the words, you know.

[Simon Mayo]

That's very good. Yeah, they're both. They are both fantastic. And the most wonderful thing about Taxman is wondering. Because obviously I wasn't listening to American radio at the time as they go through. Aha, Mr. Wilson. Aha. Mr. Heath.

[Mark Kermode]

Mr. Heath, who are these.

[Simon Mayo]

Who are these people that the Beatles are singing of? Mr. Heath, come on. Anyway, here we are again doing another thing, and Mark has a few things to say.

[Mark Kermode]

Look, I just want to begin by saying so the good lady professor, her indoors was doing the field trip, and a colleague of hers said, I heard your review of the Bride. I just need to tell you that you do know that Peter Salsgard is not related to Stellan Skarsgard. And I laughed. And then I realized that he was actually correcting me. And I went, I can't believe you're actually correcting me on that. It was a joke. And then I went to the YouTube page and I discovered an absolute welter of comments beneath the bride review of people explaining to us that Peter Sarsgaard is not related to Stellan Skarsgard. To which I would just like to say. Yes, I know.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, that was the point.

[Mark Kermode]

That was the point. We also. Can we play the clip from the review that prompted this welter of comments? Meanwhile, Pete Skarsgard, who, of course, you've had the whole conversation about, you know. Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Who's Maggie Gyllenhaal's other half.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And of course is the son of Stellan Skarsgard.

[Simon Mayo]

They're all part of one of them.

[Mark Kermode]

They're all part of the same family. They all love it. They all love it. So the clue there is that we're laughing as we say, they're all part of one family.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. And after that, I bring in Peter Sarstedt.

[Mark Kermode]

Peter Sarsted, who's saying, where do you go to, my lovely.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, in like, 1968 or something like that. But the cue that. The clue there being. It sounds like they're roughly related.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Also the clue there being that they are laughing. Now, I refer back to a previous conversation that you had with Peter Salzgard for regular listeners, in which.

[Simon Mayo]

So, yes. So this is for the fantastic September 5th, which I really thought was exceptional film. And he was great in it. And he said. And we put this on the show.

[Mark Kermode]

He.

[Simon Mayo]

He said he has given up correcting people when they come up to him and say, for example, I saw your dad in that film. Isn't he great? And he just goes, yes, he really is. And he just goes along with the one big happy family because he can't be bothered to correct people anymore. Which we said a number of times. Hence the joke. Hence the fact that this has come up an awful lot. So if you're going to lose your mind over it and then Type something onto YouTube, you might as well just check out the facts first.

[Mark Kermode]

So just to be absolutely clear, we both understand that Peter Sarsgaard and Stellan Skarsgard, who have names that are not the same, and all the other Skarsgards are not related. It was a joke. I mean, honestly, I know there are a number of running jokes in the show that every now and then we can't remember where they start, but in this particular case, we can remember exactly where it started. I once had an arrangement, you know, Mark Cousins, the filmmaker, and Mark Cousins and I, people used to do this all the time. They used to come up to me and go, I loved you on Movie Drone. I got. Not me, Mark Cousins. And Mark Cousins said that people would come up to him and go, I liked your documentary on the Exorcist. He'd go, not me, Mark. And after a while, we just had an agreement, which was if they said something nice, we would just say, yes, that was me. And if they said something bad, we'd go, that wasn't me, that was the other person. But anyway, so just. Just to be absolutely clear, yes, we do understand that people with different surnames that are not the same name come from different countries. Come from different countries. Are not related. That was the point of the joke.

[Simon Mayo]

Also, check out the. That Sam the Picnic film Pillion, when Alexander, where it comes up again and we talk and we'll mention Peter Sarsga. He said, yes, we. I met up with Peter and we had a good laugh about it because they just get it all the time. Time.

[Mark Kermode]

Somebody actually wrote on the YouTube. You'd think that people doing a program this. This important would. Would know the difference.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, because.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, you would think that, wouldn't you?

[Simon Mayo]

You'd think the people posting online might have checked things through. Anyway, that's all.

[Mark Kermode]

Welcome to the show.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. Also Robin Sarsted, who was Peter Sarstedt's brother. He did a song called I. I'll buy you one more frozen orange juice. He was also in the 60s known as Eden Cain and he as Eden Kane. And he's also Eden Kane is. So actually he's. I think he's Stellan Scars.

[Mark Kermode]

He's related.

[Simon Mayo]

Father.

[Mark Kermode]

He's related to Killer Kane, isn't he?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, something like that. And Killer Queen.

[Mark Kermode]

I think they're all Killer Queen. That's right. Killer Queen was his mother. Killer Kane was his dad.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, it's.

[Mark Kermode]

It's all.

[Simon Mayo]

It's. Let's call the whole thing off anyway. So keep up, people.

[Mark Kermode]

Keep up.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. What's coming up in this air pod?

[Mark Kermode]

We've got loads of reviews. We have a review of the anime film Scarlet, which is the new film. Well, it's a new anime film. I'll tell you about it when we get to it. One Last Deal, which is a film about a football agent trying to make One Last Deal and How to Make a Killing, which is kind of a remake of Kind Hearts and Coronet.

[Simon Mayo]

And we have a special guest, Mark. Tell us more, because I didn't do the interview for this because I was in Copenhagen.

[Mark Kermode]

You were in Copenhagen airport. So I got to interview Ryan Gosling about Project Hail Mary, which is a film that I like very, very much because it's a science fiction movie that owns a certain debt to silent running. Look, I shown you this. Look I've got right here and think this is my silent running drone thing. Anyway, so, yes, I am talking to Ryan Gosling about Project Hail Mary, which opens next week.

[Simon Mayo]

And in take two, what's going on there?

[Mark Kermode]

Reminders of him, which is a new romantic movie. And Lord of the Flies, which is on Iplayer. All of it is on Iplayer. It's been there for a few weeks now, but I binge watch the entire thing in. In one Go.

[Simon Mayo]

And also in take two, you get even more of all the good stuff, including five question Film Club.

[Mark Kermode]

Three questions, your majesty.

[Simon Mayo]

Last week it was with Nail and I, and since kicking it off last month, we've had the Red Shoes, Fargo, Heathers, Blue Ruin, Jean Dielman, the Elephant man. The week this week's choices were Misery, Jason and the Argonauts or Silence of the Lambs. Mark will provide answers to the five questions.

[Mark Kermode]

Three questions, your majesty.

[Simon Mayo]

We ask every week to give you a little introduction to the film. Plus, as Mark mentioned, one last deal is out this week. So we're asking for different movies featuring the world of sports representation.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a niche degree.

[Simon Mayo]

Is that agents? I suppose that's agents, yeah, agents. Agents in movies, normally.

[Mark Kermode]

Jerry Maguire, you know, that sort of thing.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. And in questions, we answer the question. This is a. This is a genuinely good question, I think. Why do we, the public, get to know what a film costs at all? Why do studios tell us how much they spent making a feature when this would be considered commercially sensitive in most other industries? Okay, very good.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a very good question. Sebastian, this.

[Simon Mayo]

So, our first email, it's going back to the long running Claire Foy and her dad David thing. Excellent. So I think this starts with a British Airways High Life magazine interview with Claire. By the way, I was reading the VNA magazine. Yes. As it arrived, and there was a very entertaining piece on Wallace and Gromit written by your good self.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you very much. Yes, I really enjoyed writing that piece. I used to write for High Life magazine as well, actually.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, that's what I think.

[Mark Kermode]

That's what I lost that.

[Simon Mayo]

So this is an interview with Claire Foyer from BA Highlife magazine.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Her parents, now retired, are both proud and amused by her work. Her dad even emails into his favorite film podcast, Kermit and Mayer's take, to suggest that they have his daughter on as a guest. Oh, God. She puts her head in her hands when I mentioned this. Dad, what are you doing? You do realize this is my job. SHE LAUGHS I actually took him to an event that I knew Mark Kermit would be at so they could meet, but then he tried to act cool, like, oh, hi. Anyway, so then David Foy, Claire's dad, has been in touch. Dear Biggles and Alby, it seems to me even BA are mentioning your seminal podcast. As usual, Claire has distorted the facts to suit the story. See, that's what actors do. Still all publicity. I didn't realize that when I met Mark I was being cool. Perhaps I should have asked for an autograph. Have either of you seen the Institute? This is, I think, the point of the email on mgm. I recently read the Stephen King book and was surprised to see a new adaptation. I enjoyed both, even though the plot was changed. It's a bit dystopian, but it's difficult to tell Dystopia from real life these days. It is, which is certainly true. David, thank you very much indeed. I haven't. So I've.

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

MGM plus is, like one streamer too many. Yeah, I mean, I've got lots because obviously it's part of the job, but when it came along, I thought, okay, well, that looks like quite a good show. But no, I'm not gonna share again because it's like hundreds of pounds just to keep up with this stuff. But anyway, you know, it's a Stephen King product, so it's going to be good, isn't it?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, I'm.

[Mark Kermode]

I haven't seen it. I don't have MGM Plus. I feel the same way as you. It's like, you know, you sit down in front of the television, you can't remember which streamer, what was on, and in the end you just go to now tv. But so if you.

[Simon Mayo]

If you are an MGM plus person, could you. Can you get in touch? Is it, you know, is it worth it? You know, if you've got everything else, do you actually need MGM Plus?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, no, I know.

[Simon Mayo]

I think sky are now including Disney Plus.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, really?

[Simon Mayo]

In their package. I think so, anyway.

[Mark Kermode]

And Sky. Sky are related to Stellan Skarsgard, aren't they? Yes, yes. They're all part of the same family, I think.

[Simon Mayo]

I think. I think sky was just like a nickname that Stellan had when he was at school.

[Mark Kermode]

That's right.

[Simon Mayo]

And that's the kind of inspiration. So he's put some of his many other siblings.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

In charge. I think that's correct. [e-mail]. why did you go below the line and look? Anyway? That's the. That's.

[Mark Kermode]

I know, I know, I know, but. Yeah, but there is a whole feature which is based on going below the line and looking on this show. So I was kind of doing research and also, as I said, it was like when this person who's a friend of mine, somebody I know very well is a very smart person, genuinely corrected me. I was like, hang on, you just what? Seriously? And then I. And then I looked below the line and then I felt dirty.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Not for the first time. So tell us About a movie that's out and cool and interesting.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, Scarlet, which is new anime from Mamoru Soda, who made the Girl who Leapt Through Time, and Belle, which I really, really liked, and Mariah, which was Oscar nominated. So this is a gender swapped reimagining of the story of Hamlet. I mean, at the moment we've got Hamlet and Hamnet still playing in cinemas and now this. In this it is the titular princess rather than a prince, who swears vengeance on her uncle for killing her father and marrying her mother. So the story begins in 16th century Denmark, but soon moves to this otherworldly setting after Scarlet is poisoned by Claudius and wakes up in this world which is a kind of purgatory. It's somewhere between this world and the next. Here the living and the dead seem to coexist as do past and future, as she discovers when her path crosses with that of a modern day paramedic. It's all very, very meta. I'm going to play you a clip. The clip is not in the English language. I'm just going to tell you what you're going to hear. You're going to hear Scarlet saying, I will take revenge. Then the king says, chosen warriors, pledge your loyalty to me. Do not fear, fight. Capture the princess. And Scarlett says, my uncle took everything from me. My father, my people, my homeland. I will find him and take my revenge. And then a third voice says, wait, don't you want to know? At that moment I heard the king's whisper. Here is the clip. So the king's whisper was the king's last words before execution, his last words to his daughter, which she couldn't hear over the side of the crowd, but this character has heard and the last thing he said, and this is kind of crucial, it's not a plot spoiler is forgive. So, but forgive what? Forgive who? You know, in what context. And that really is the subject of the film, which is the battle between vengeance. Because the whole thing with, as we all know, we've talked about, is Hamlet dithering about whether or not he can carry out the vengeance that the ghost of his, the ghost of the deceased father has told him that he needs to enact or whether, you know, an act of grace is better and more importantly, whether an act of grace sometime in the past can affect the future and the fact that we're all going to end up fighting wars forever and ever and ever. So these are big themes, these are big subjects, these are kind of quite big metaphysical issues, but told in a way which is fairly populous the film took over four years to make and it combines old school 2D animation with modern CG. And this is most notable in there are several scenes in which you've got astonishingly rendered and often quite jaw dropping, almost photorealist. Backdrops of raging oceans, vast deserts, huge sort of crumbled societies. And then the characters themselves who are more conventionally 2D animated, certainly in the way that they move. There's also this absolutely massive lightning breathing dragon which appears at various intervals and honestly deserves to be seen in something like imax because even the screening room that I saw it in, which is a fairly small screening room, is pretty awe inspiring. So visually it is kind of breathtaking, eye catching. If you're a 2D purist, you might blanch at the use of CG. And when the film premiered in, I think it was Venice. And it got like a ten minute standing ovation. But then one always has to say everything gets a 10 minute standing ovation nowadays at festivals. And then when it opened in the real world outside of the festival circuit, the response was much more muted. In Japan, I think it, it went top three but didn't go number one, which is remarkable for something of this scale. And its box office has been soft to very disappointing. And then in the US it hasn't actually fared much better. And I was trying to figure out why. I think part of the problem is that the narrative, which despite the fact that this is the retelling of a fairly familiar story, albeit a very changed version of that, it does manage to get quite muddled, particularly in the thing about the otherworld, because it's like, okay, what is this otherworld? How come there are people who are in it that are dead and people in it who are clearly alive? And what's the deal with the dragon? Which is really impressive, but just I'm not entirely sure what the dragon is. And how come there's only one character from the future, because if time really doesn't matter, surely everyone would be from different periods. And I'm. I'm thinking that whilst I'm thinking these things, there is a fundamental flaw in the storytelling. The fact that I'm even raising these issues because heaven knows, I mean, I was referring to Silent Running. Some of the best stories don't make any sense, but you're swept up in them and that does. There's a certain sense of detachment, the general feeling from. Because I read some reviews of it from people who were sort of, you know, hardcore anime fans. They thought that it was kind of messy Narratively and stylistically. I mean, I have to say, I had, I. I had gone in knowing that the film hadn't. Hadn't kind of struck the nerve that they wanted it to. And so therefore I had slightly lowered expectations. And sometimes that is the best way to see a film, because I did enjoy it. I did think it was visually very, very impressive. And there are certain things in it, particularly the whole thing about forgiveness and revenge and the idea that it may be possible to stop a cycle of war by simply turning your back on the vengeful part of, you know, of human nature. I thought that was kind of interesting. Then again, I am the person who liked Goro Miyazaki's Earthsea, which you remember, I reviewed when it came out and that was received very, very sniffly. So much so, in fact, Hayao Miyazaki, who is the director's father, walked out of a screening of it. He said he was going out for a smoke, but he didn't talk to his son about it for ages and then said afterwards his comment was, you shouldn't make a picture based on your emotions. So I don't have a great track record of being particularly purist about this stuff, but I. I enjoyed it more than I thought I was going to, having gone in with lowered expectations. But I do think that even the most charitable assessment of it is it is not up there with the director's best work. There are things in it that are arresting but is kind of all over the place.

[Simon Mayo]

Still to come, how to Make a Killing, One Last Deal and the box office top 10. Also, the laughter lift and Mark's chat with Ryan Gosling. Hey, Mark Kermod.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

When we first started our journey in Wizardtainment, did you worry that people might not listen or care about what we had to say?

[Mark Kermode]

I did. What if we made fools of ourselves?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, thankfully it turns out people love it, specifically when we make fools of ourselves. So we needn't have worried.

[Mark Kermode]

That's good, because we're very good at that.

[Simon Mayo]

That said, wouldn't it have been great if there'd been something like Shopify to help us get started? Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just getting started.

[Mark Kermode]

Get the word out like you have a top marketing team behind you and easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling.

[Simon Mayo]

It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify. Today, sign up for your one pound per month trial at shopify.co.uk take that's

[Mark Kermode]

shopify.co.uk take

[Simon Mayo]

Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, she's horny and she's in charge.

[Simon Mayo]

She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy.

[Mark Kermode]

Brooklyn is their first kid.

[Simon Mayo]

He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults.

[Mark Kermode]

A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life.

[Simon Mayo]

And of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin.

[Mark Kermode]

I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly and her

[Ryan Gosling]

tagline was, the only thing I'm guilty

[Mark Kermode]

of is being shamazing.

[Simon Mayo]

Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous. So here we go with the UK and US box office for this week in the UK at number. I mean, who knows Peaky Blinders, the Immortal Man. This is obviously, as you said last week, a limited release and then it's going to turn up on Netflix.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Which is, which is why the who knows thing, because. Because we don't know, because they don't return box office figures. There you go.

[Simon Mayo]

Gene says, I was quite surprised about two things. Yeah. Firstly, that Mark had never watched Peaky Blinders, and secondly, that even so you didn't feel in any way that it detracted from the story. But I wondered, did it cross your mind as the film started, did a man get to be there? Why is he suffering alone? I can heartily recommend the Peaky Blinders series. It will shed light on all. On that all important question, to say nothing of the performances of the actors really is worth a watch. Treat yourself, says Gene.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I mean, to reply to that, yes, I am going to watch Peaky Blinders. As I said in the review, after having seen the film, I thought, I really, really want to watch the series. But actually I thought one of the things to the film's credit was, yes, I mean, you know, how did he get it? But, but the, the film just sets up this. I mean, I have, as I said, everyone's got a basic knowledge of Peaky Blinders because it's in the culture. You just know vaguely what it's about. And I thought it did a really good job of just, just assuming you'll keep up from here. So I know terrible Things have happened and some of the, one of those things is revealed during the course of the, the thing. But that's all you need to know. Terrible things have happened. He is now isolated. Fine. Okay, on we go. And I think it's absolute proof that you really don't need to explain everything. The, the ability to, for the audience to keep up. I remember William Friedkin once said that the thing that annoyed him most about filmmaking was when the film was behind the audience because the audience is smart enough. And so. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, it's testament to the fact that, I mean, I suppose they had to make it as a standalone piece.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

So it sounds as though they got the balance absolutely right, that it makes you want to go back and watch the TV series if you haven't. But if you haven't, it works anyway, you know. Yeah, completely.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, precisely. So, so I thought that was very impressive.

[Simon Mayo]

Number 10, a new entry again, Sinners.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, about that. Yes. Which is, you know, this is obviously because there's been all this awards interest and we are coming up to the Oscars. We're going to do a morning after OSC broadcast. So first thing on broadcast podcast. Sorry. So first thing on Monday morning, you and I will be talking about the Oscars because I'm staying up all night in a, in a premiere in, in London in order to watch it and then that will be available very, very, very shortly afterwards.

[Simon Mayo]

So sinners at number 10. The secret agent is at number nine. Number 26 in America.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I thought it was fabulous. I, I, one of the best things about it is how it moves between genres so effortlessly and it's got a great central performance. I, I, I, I think it's a really brilliant film. I encourage everybody to go and see it in cinema.

[Simon Mayo]

Number eight here, six in the States is crime 100. Excuse me, crime 101.

[Mark Kermode]

I mentioned freaking before and I said, you know, crime 101 is a great heist movie and it sort of looks back to those films from the 1970s that I really, really love. But I think it also does something to, to reinvent the genre. I thought it was, I thought it was terrific. And I, I interviewed the director on stage and we had a bit of a geek out about all those films from the 70s that we really love.

[Simon Mayo]

Seven here, seven over there. Epic. Elvis Presley in concert.

[Mark Kermode]

I think the best thing about this is that I think you liked it as much as I did because you're not a hardcore Elvis devotee, but I think you really had a good time with it, didn't you?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. I mean, in a way exactly the same as Peaky Blindness. You can come to it at whatever stage of. Even if you don't like Elvis or even if you just like some of his stuff, you go and watch this movie and you go, okay, Right? That's what it's about. And how brilliantly made. And I think. I thought it was extraordinary.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And the musicianship is amazing. And we read out a message that Sanjeev had sent us, and Sanj is really kind of, you know, the. The. The. The most hardcore of Elvis fans, I think any. Whatever your relationship with Elvis is, go see this and go see it on the biggest screen possible.

[Simon Mayo]

Number six here, number three in the States, is Goat.

[Mark Kermode]

It's just kind of passable animation, but no more than that.

[Simon Mayo]

This isn't in the American box office top 10, but I don't think they expected it to be. But look at that. A new entry at number five, Mother's Pride.

[Mark Kermode]

Mother's Pride. Mother's Pride. A film which, you know from. From the people who brought you Fisherman's Friends.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

I believe you have an email about this.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, but I'm just. They'll be pleased with that. When they. I mean, Martin Clunes was on the show last week.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, listen, that's a very decent showing. And. And I don't think it's a film that's going to have international legs. No, I mean, I think it is. It is. It is very much a. Very much a British product. Don't you think?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. It's not for Weddings and it's not the Full Monty. And it. It is just going to be of.

[Mark Kermode]

It's the Miles Monty.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes, the mild Monty is good. Rob says, I wasn't intending to see this, partly due to Mark's lukewarm review, but saw it by chance as I turned up a week early to what I thought I was going to see. And this was on anyway. I loved it. Yes, it's corny and predictable, but was heartwarming and funny in several places. Very enjoyable and a perfect afternoon film.

[Mark Kermode]

Good.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, that's what it is, as long as everybody knows what they're going to see. They've seen the trailer and they thought, okay, that I'll have some of that.

[Mark Kermode]

But also when they said it's a perfect afternoon film that you. That you stumbled into by mistake. Right. And you said. When I reviewed it, you said that. That. That thing that I. I mean, goes down nicely with a cup of tea and a bicky, you know, Mrs. And that is absolutely the definition of a perfect afternoon film.

[Simon Mayo]

And a lot of people agree. Cause it's at number five.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, good for it.

[Simon Mayo]

Number four here and number four over there is the bride.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. So the bride, exclamation mark, has had a rough ride. It's both in terms of critical response and box office. I have now seen it twice because the good lady professor was doing. Taking the. The Exeter students on the field trip, the London part of the field trip. And part of that was to go see film at the BFI imax, which is this massive screen, and I'm part of sheepdogging them around. So I went along and saw it again and I enjoyed it all over again the second time around. I mean, it is a hot, hot mess. But I thought it was really good fun. One thing I would like to say is, as I was doing my below the line stuff, which I apologize, there was some stuff on the YouTube thing saying, well, you know, Maggie Gyllenhaal's disowned this version of the film and it's been completely messed up by the studio. No, that's not the case. What happened was that there were test screenings of the film. Maggie Gyllenhaal talked about this, and there were certain things that the studio did ask for. One of them was to tone down some of the sexual violence. But this is a quote from Maggie Gyllenhaal. The fantasy of the test screenings being a horrible thing is inaccurate. Me and Pam, the producer, we love each other, we're partners, so try to make whatever you want, but you can talk to us. We'll tell you what it's like. For instance, in the beginning, in the early screening in New Jersey, I hadn't framed Mary Shelley at all. Many people were like, we don't know who that is. You don't have to know much about Mary Shelley in order to watch the movie. All you need to know is that she wrote Frankenstein. So I was like, cool, let's make it super clear. Let's just tell them. So I loved the test screenings. Honestly, they were super vulnerable. So vulnerable, so scary, so living on the edge. But I was like, okay, let's go. So the idea that Maggie Gyllenhaal has disowned this version and this is the studio, is completely fallacious. All she did was go through the test screening process and took notes from it. And she did, indeed. The one area of clashing was the. The thing about the sexual violence and just how dark the dark, like the black vomit thing could be. But that's it. It's her film anyway.

[Simon Mayo]

Email from Peter. In Folkestone, I saw the Bride on the opening day. The look, design, sound, choreography and style of the 1930s update is AM Oscar winning. But the script. What a monster. I felt like I was watching a patchwork of drafts stitched together to make the final cut of the film. Why didn't the cops that pulled the monsters over recognize these two quite distinctive people when they were America's most wanted criminals? Yet a cinema full of people did recognize them at the beginning of the film. Why did the mob chasing them just stop so they could perform a dance sequence? How did they escape from a room surrounded by police? Even after being shot, the script and characters didn't seem to make sense. It was a patchwork of scenes with no unifying thread or consequences. Even the final scene undoes every previous consequence in the film. It looked and sounded amazing, but a surgeon needs to take a knife to that script. Peter, thank you. This is from Nick in Leeds. Dear pretty Penny and Frank, I watched the Bride last night and terribly behaved Saturday matinee crowd aside, loved the film. I thought it was stuffed to the neck bolts with rare originality and zing. The two lead performances crackled. The period setting was del and as a study of loneliness, it ached with the pain of being different whilst being a clarion call for the dispossessed. It wasn't exactly subtle with its messaging, but as a society, I think we are long past subtlety and need the sort of short, sharp shocks this film provides. I think Shelley would be proud she is in this one after all. At one point, viewers of a delicate nature should be warned. This is to watch out for the most gruesome curb stomp scene since American History X, which I have to say is one of the worst things I've ever seen in a movie, ever. Yeah, and would definitely put me off. But it's an interesting point from Nick. He says that we're long past subtlety. There is, you know, subtlety is getting us nowhere. It needs to be short, sharp. One more point before you come back. Christian Mole in Chiselhurst. It was immediate. It was immensely entertaining and anarchic viewing. Buckley's performance couldn't be more different from the Hamnet grief fest if it tried. Whilst Bale was also excellent. However, whilst Mark made a reference to the film's feminist leanings, in retrospect, Ida's character, similar to Bella in Poor Things, a film which seems to share a lot of its DNA, feels like a bit of the Next stage of evolution from the manic pixie Dream Girl male fantasy. Slightly depressingly, we were the only two people in the screen. And a screening of Mother's Pride, which finished at the same time, seemed to have attracted a sizable audience.

[Mark Kermode]

They.

[Simon Mayo]

There really is no accounting for taste. The trailer for Mother's Pride told me all I wanted to, or rather didn't want to know about the film. That comes from being a big unbeard, and this comes from being a big unbearded Real Ale fan. Well, different audiences maybe, but they're. The emails on the.

[Mark Kermode]

What's good about that is. I mean, I do think that thing about it's. The film has proved very, very divisive. And as I said, it had some really, really, really major critical maulings. But. And I agree that it is. It is all over the place I said it. It is a hot mess of a movie. But I think those three emails pretty much sum it up. You'll either go with it or you won't. And even if you, if, if you, if you love it, you'll still think there are things. I mean, I know that. I know what I mean about the script. I kind of. Those things. But how do you get out of that. That scene when you're surrounded by the police and then they suddenly run away and the dance numbers. The dance number thing is it just suddenly turns into a musical. Suddenly in the middle of nowhere, it turns into a musical and they do Putting on the Ritz. They literally do Putting on the Ritz. And I kind of. And then it ends with Monster Mash. So I like that level of anarchy about it. And that was. That brings me back to what I said about. It's very much the film that Maggie Gyllenhaal was making because no group of executives sat down and said, let's make this. Because this will tick all the boxes. Because it doesn't.

[Simon Mayo]

When they, when they did their song and dance number, did they then sit down and make some nice shaker furniture?

[Mark Kermode]

They did, yes. Yeah, there's. Absolutely. Yeah. Because they're all part of the extended. Because, of course, Amanda Wright said Fred is the cousin of Peter Starstead.

[Simon Mayo]

That's right. Because it begins with an S and sounds exactly.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly the case.

[Simon Mayo]

Wuthering Heights is at number three here, number five over there.

[Mark Kermode]

I feel like Wuthering Heights should have an exclamation mark. It's actually got inverted commas. Yeah, it's got. So the bride, exclamation mark. Wuthering Heights, inverted commas. I think The Bride is a better film than Wuthering Heights, but obviously it's had nothing like the populist success of Wuthering Heights. Wuthering Heights is. We'll come to this in questions on the question of box office and how much we know about box office. But Wuthering Heights is. Is paying its way in a way that the Bride won't scream.

[Simon Mayo]

Seven is at number two here and there. Number one here and there is Hoppers. So just a couple of emails here. Gavin Parry Jones, Tim and may it concern Patreon subscriber here. First time emailer. I took the daughter to see Hoppers over the weekend. As with any kids film film, the rules that we all follow are somewhat relaxed. I need not have worried. The film had them engrossed from the start. But it's the parents I want to mention here. Get out of a film. What you put in. The laughing at times very loud, the awe and sniffling at the end of the film means us adults got more than we bargained for. It won't be easy for kids films this year, what with Toy Story 5 on the way, but Hoppers might be the one to beat this year. And Ashley in Melmo, just over the bridge from that there Copenhagen, just got out of seeing Hoppers, or Operation Beaver, as it's called in Sweden. Okay, thank you. And after hearing Pete Doctor on your show talk about the film so enthusiastically a few weeks back, I'll admit I went in with a bit of optimism. Knowing doctor's previous work, particularly up, and with my 6 year old daughter Ella, very keen to see, felt like the sort of family cinema trip that should be a safe bet. How wrong I was. For me, the film felt like a blend of the worst bits of Up, Avatar and A Bug's Life. UP has some fantastic moments, but its weaker stretches are not great. I don't think Avatar is a particularly good film overall and A Bug's Life has always struck me as one of Pixar's weaker efforts. Unfortunately, Hoppers felt like a strange mashup of those elements without the strengths that make any of them work. Ashley and Mellow though.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I mean my feeling was it's, it's Pixar and therefore there's a certain guarantee baked into that. Yeah, I didn't think it was one of their classics because I think that narratively doesn't have the classic simplicity of their very best work. But I did enjoy it. It's nice to hear that somebody was kind of very emotionally moved by it because they do. You know, the Pixar movies do have a way of getting under the skin of the grown ups, which is one of the things that makes them kind of. So I don't think by any means it's one of Pixar's best works, but I do think that I've never seen a Pixar film that didn't have enough in it to warrant going to see it.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, Hoppers is the UK number one and the US number one. Still to come. Mark, we'll talk about one last deal, how to make a killing. You get the Laughter lift and you get Ryan Gosling.

[Mark Kermode]

I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago. And you can all go listen to it ad free by subscribing to the Binge Podcast channel.

[Simon Mayo]

What podcast? Corinne? Tell us.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, it's called Blink Jake Handle Story.

[Simon Mayo]

I created it about a man named

[Mark Kermode]

Jake who I met who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story and it's very unique.

[Simon Mayo]

Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world.

[Mark Kermode]

So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen and subscribers to the binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on the Binge Podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com welcome to crime Scene, the

[Ryan Gosling]

new weekly show from the Binge where

[Mark Kermode]

we tell you the stories behind the

[Ryan Gosling]

world's most unforgettable crimes.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm Jonathan Hirsch.

[Ryan Gosling]

You may know me as the host

[Simon Mayo]

of My Fugitive dad or Dear Franklin Jones Watch you. I'm an executive producer of the Binge, the True Crime Podcast Network where we

[Mark Kermode]

bring you a new series on the

[Ryan Gosling]

1st of every month for Crime Scene.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm joined by my producer and co

[Simon Mayo]

host Cooper Maul, the reporter and voice

[Ryan Gosling]

behind Fatal Beauty and the Crimes of Margo Freshwater.

[Mark Kermode]

We know there are a lot of true crime podcasts out there.

[Ryan Gosling]

I think what makes Crime Scene different is that Cooper and I have boots on the ground. We're investigative storytellers and so so many

[Mark Kermode]

of the stories that come across our

[Ryan Gosling]

desk we haven't been able to share

[Simon Mayo]

with you until now.

[Ryan Gosling]

So if you're one of the millions

[Simon Mayo]

of people who have flocked to the

[Mark Kermode]

binge for riveting storytelling, deeply investigated true

[Ryan Gosling]

crime series, think of this as all

[Mark Kermode]

the things that you love about those shows in a single episode.

[Simon Mayo]

Join us every week in the Crime

[Ryan Gosling]

Scene office wherever you listen to or watch your shows.

[Mark Kermode]

This is Crime Scene available now.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, it's Ryan Gosling time. Began his acting career when he was 13 on the Disney channels, the all new Mickey Mouse Club. And since then he's. I bet you didn't mention that in the interview, did you?

[Mark Kermode]

He's come a long way since then, isn't he?

[Simon Mayo]

So since then. Blue Valentine. All good things drive the ides of my crazy stupid love the place beyond the pines Only God forgives the big short, the nice guys La La Land Song to song Blade Runner 2049, first man fracture, half Nelson, Lars and the Real Girl, the Notebook, Barbie and the Fall Guy.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow. But I spoke to him about Project Hail Mary, which is his new film, which is a science fiction film from Phil Lord and Christopher Miller. It's based on a book by Andy Weir, who is the guy who wrote the Martian, which of course was made into a film that we've got both liked very, very much. And the story is basically he is a lone astronaut out in space on a Hail Mary mission to save the Earth. And on his mission he ends up meeting an extraterrestrial called Rocky, not least because he looks like he is made of rocks. And I just love the film partly cause it's very much for me in the mode of silent running. It's a very, very sort of emotional science fiction film. So you'll hear my conversation with Ryan Gosling after this clip from Project Hail Mary. The sun is dying. I have 347 other biologists and 21 countries mobilizing as we speak.

[Ryan Gosling]

I am a teacher at Grover Cleveland Middle.

[Mark Kermode]

You have a doctorate in molecular biology. If we do nothing, everything on this

[Simon Mayo]

planet will go extinct. I'm not an astronaut.

[Ryan Gosling]

I get sick of on an elevator. Oh, perfect. There's no elevator on the ship. This is captain ryland grace reporting from the hail mary. What is that?

[Mark Kermode]

Ryan, welcome to the show.

[Ryan Gosling]

Thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

Let me begin by saying I came out of the film with a huge smile on my face, which is really what I needed at the time. So firstly, thank you for that.

[Ryan Gosling]

Thank you for saying that.

[Mark Kermode]

So your relationship with the book goes right back to manuscript stage. Why did you love it so much?

[Ryan Gosling]

I mean, it's brilliant. It was obvious, I think, for so many reasons, but also it was. You know, Andy has a really unique way of having something feel escapist in a way, but also actually being a reminder of what we're capable of as human beings. And it felt like this opportunity to pivot away from fearing the future and maybe seeing it as something not to be afraid of, but rather just to figure out and that we're capable of as human beings. We make the impossible possible all the time. It's kind of our thing. And so there's something there, especially in the time that I received it, which is during the pandemic and theaters were closing and film sets were closing. For him to send me the most ambitious thing I've ever read or will ever do just felt like a Hail Mary in its own right.

[Mark Kermode]

I saw it on the IMAX screen and obviously it's visually wonderful. But the thing that I like most is the thing that you take away from it is it's not. Not really about all that stuff. It's about the story of friendship. And it reminded me of a movie that I love called Silent Running, which is a science fiction film from the 1970s, which I have got a great sentimental attachment to.

[Ryan Gosling]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

And I think this isn't really a science fiction film. It has science fiction, but it is about friendship. Isn't

[Ryan Gosling]

really is. It's a sort of like on a cosmic scale. But it's very intimate. And it's as. Yeah, it's as human as it is alien. And it's as intimate as it is vast and epic. You know, it's really got this balance to it that's hard to achieve and it's special.

[Mark Kermode]

Your director said it raises the question of can men be friends? And the answer is yes, but only if the future of humanity depends on it. You agree with them?

[Ryan Gosling]

I guess. I don't disagree. I don't know. That's such a Phil point of view.

[Mark Kermode]

Tell me about working with Rocky and the person who is the person behind Rocky.

[Ryan Gosling]

James Ortiz.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Ryan Gosling]

There's layers of meta ness to this process that I won't bore you with. But one of the important ones is that it was very difficult to do this practically. It would have been much easier and much cheaper to shoot it with a tennis ball or do it all in post. To design Rocky to make him practical, it took like five puppeteers at all times in order to work him and to get him into these spaces. The sets that we designed were so authentic. I mean, I don't think anyone told our production Designer that this thing didn't have to actually go to space. So it was, like, very impractical in lots of different ways. But so is their relationship, right? They don't share the same. They can't live in the same atmosphere, and they don't speak each other's language. And it's all hard earned. So as hard earned as it was in the story, so it was in the film. And. And then the sort of more important layer of all of that is Rocky's voice. You know, a lot of the film was about finding a voice for him and getting to know him and, like, developing this relationship. And what was happening behind the scenes was James Ortiz, who came in to be the puppeteer, was very graciously offering to read lines with me off camera. So I wasn't just completely acting alone, because I think I spent like 100 days alone on camera or something. So he was like, as a fellow actor and just a good person was like, hey, I'll act with you. I'll give you someone to talk to. And then he just became Rocky's voice. And he also took such ownership of the character became to a point where he was like, rocky would never do that. He would never say that. He would never go over there. He would do this. And then he could improvise for hours as Rocky, way off the script. Cause sometimes we were locked in these sets for hours at a time and on harnesses or in spacesuits or behind glass. So he just. I was discovering Rocky as I was discovering James. And that whole thing is very real, and you can feel it on camera.

[Mark Kermode]

Sandra Hiller, who I've loved since the days of Requiem, I have never, ever seen her do karaoke before. And that was one of the great joys of the film, was seeing that she is the most brilliant actor.

[Ryan Gosling]

She is the most brilliant actor. She had to be Strad. I think, in all of the cases of this film was like, it had to be who it is, right? It had to be Kristen Phil. I knew it had to be them. And I actually was doing some award show stuff at the time that we were trying to cast this. And I was seeing Sandra at a lot of these events. And it just. She's. That she is this character, you know, because she's so brilliant and serious about what she does. But there's such a warmth there and humor, and she just. She has all of the things. What we didn't know is that she had this voice. And we were sharing. We were on an aircraft carrier, and her dressing room Was down the hall from mine, and I heard her singing. And I came down the hall and I said, you can sing like that? And she was like, yeah. And I said, will you sing in the film? And she said, I don't think so. And I said, please sing in the film. You know, I know that you have to sing in this film. You have to. And she was like, well, let me think about it. So she came in with this one song, which was Harry Styles, Sign of the Times. She said, this is the only song I'll sing, but I'll sing this song. And we were like, could you pick something that might be easier to clear or. You know. And she said, no, it has to be there. She just smashed it out of the park. And that became, I think, one of the best scenes in the film. I know it is. And then the heart of the whole. Really, the anthem of the film.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Ryan Gosling]

So it's just to say it's a long story and you can cut it all out. But she's. That's what you get when you work with Sandra. You know, you get all the things that you kind of hope to get, but then you get all of these unexpected gifts.

[Mark Kermode]

Are you a big science fiction fan?

[Ryan Gosling]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

What are your favorites?

[Ryan Gosling]

I like. You know what film I really like, which is the Abyss.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Gosling]

I thought of that a lot while I was making this film. You know, I thought, like, I wanted to take the costume design in a lot of. In a similar direction where it felt very practical and, like, because we were going to the edges of the universe, that we would have something that was like. We had to actually design the helmet so that it was similar to that.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Ryan Gosling]

There's a scene in that movie when they have to. She makes the decision to drown and that he'll revive her on the other end. And this is where you. They finally let themselves show each other how much they care about one another. That I think, is a perfect piece of movie.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a really interesting. I mean, I haven't heard anyone mention the Abyss for a long time. Cause it kind of gets forgotten.

[Ryan Gosling]

It does. But I think it's a really special movie. That whole first context. It's a great film.

[Mark Kermode]

Let me ask you a final thing quickly. So you've been in space more than once. We have Star wars coming up next. I remember when I was a kid watching movies about going into space and thinking, that is what I want to do more than anything. Is there any part of you that thinks. Thinks. I'd actually really like to do that properly.

[Ryan Gosling]

Not at all.

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Ryan Gosling]

I want to pretend to go. I want to talk to people who've gone, but I don't want to go. No, I, I like to pretend. I like to stay here and, and look up.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well, congratulations on the film. I said it's really, it's really charming and, you know, sent me out with a big smile and frankly, that's what we need at the moment.

[Ryan Gosling]

So thanks a lot.

[Simon Mayo]

You love Ryan, Ryan loves you. It was a, it was a fascinating conversation. I thought when you asked him about science fiction, he was, it was almost going to be, you know, that moment when Donald Trump was asked for his favorite verse in the Bible.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, yes. He never read it.

[Simon Mayo]

He didn't want to mention them because he just loves all of it. But then he came up with the Abyss.

[Mark Kermode]

The Abyss, yeah. Which is a really, that was a really interesting reference point because as I said, I mean, people don't talk about the abyss. I mean, James Cameron's career has got so many big movies in it, but people don't talk about the Abyss. And they had the whole kind of trouble with the ending, but it was, it was fascinating. It would not have occurred to me, but when he mentioned it, it made the, it absolutely made sense. So, yeah, it was a, it was a very, very astute choice.

[Simon Mayo]

I think he's just, he's very thoughtful. He doesn't give off pat answers, does he? And I think the last time I spoke to him was for first man, when he again, he was in space being Neil Armstrong and married to Claire Foy. Hello to Claire's parents, obviously, particularly.

[Mark Kermode]

And to all the Skars gods who are all part of the same family.

[Simon Mayo]

That's right. But I'm, I am absolutely intrigued by this because I interviewed Andy Weir when the book came out.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

And was really intrigued by it. Child One, in fact, was telling me just a couple of days ago when I was over there that the, the audiobook which is narrated by Ray Porter, is one of the great audiobooks and won lots of awards when it came out a few years ago. So that's worth looking at. So are you gonna. Is the review next week for this?

[Mark Kermode]

The review will be next week. I will tell you this, that when we were in the waiting room to do the interview, which is very much like in Notting Hill, you know, I'm the person from Horse and Hounds, you know, you're Hugh Grant, basically, that's what you're saying. I'm Hugh. I'm Hugh Grant. That's right. In My dreams. But in the. In the holding pen with me before we go and do the interview was Brian Cox. Not Brian Cox, but Brian Cox. You know, the universe is amazing. And I've met him a few times before because obviously he was the advisor on Danny Boyle's Sunshine and he's a really lovely guy. And I did say to him, just tell me me, how does the science of project Hail Mary hold up? And he said, surprisingly well. So really okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Which was good to hear, which is very reassuring. So you'll review Project Film next week? Next week, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. But I mean, I will tell you in advance, I wasn't just saying that to blow smoke as the phrase that Heather, who works on the show just used earlier on. I just. It really made me happy. And frankly, things that really make you happy at the moment are in, you know, desperate need.

[Simon Mayo]

I think there was one line that Ryan said in answer to one of your questions. I think this is right. He said he spent 100 days alone on camera.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Because basically it is him, his character alone for reasons which be explained during the course of the film. And then he makes contact with this creature who is Rocky, who is the puppet. And that was one of the.

[Simon Mayo]

That's an astonishing trial for any actor to do.

[Mark Kermode]

But that is one of the reasons why it reminded me of Silent Running, because for most of Silent Running, it is Bruce Dern alone on that ship. In fact, the tagline for Silent Running was the loneliest journey of all. And I think there is something about loneliness and space which gets right to the heart of what is so awe inspiring about the idea of space travel, you know. So anyway, like I said, I'm preempting myself. I'll review it next week. But. But I did like it very, very much.

[Simon Mayo]

All right, okay, so that's coming up on next week's take one. All right. The fabulous laughter lift is on the way. An exceptional addition I think, this week. But before we get there, what else is out?

[Mark Kermode]

How to make a killing. You remember some years ago, the Coen brothers made the absolutely ridiculous decision to remake one of the greatest and darkest Ealing comedies of all time, the Last Lady Killers, and move the story to America. All star cast headed up by a Lister, Tom Hanks. Right. And the results were not pretty. So now writer, writer John Patton Ford has made the equally foolish decision to remake one of the greatest and darkest alien comedies of all time, Kind Hearts and Coronets. Moving the story to America and featuring an all star cast, this time headed up by a Lister Glen Powell. And the results are not as ugly as you might have expected. So, I mean, technically, it's not really a remake. It's inspired by. I mean. I mean, obviously, Karnhartz and Coronets itself is based on Roy Horneman's novel Israel the Autobiography of a Criminal, which was the inspiration for the film and also for a Broadway musical. But the basic setup is the same. A man who is the distant heir to a fortune sets about killing off the relatives between him and succession. Here is a clip from the trailer of how to Make a Killing.

[Ryan Gosling]

Since the day I was born My mother told me we were different yes, she had been disowned by her family.

[Mark Kermode]

Family.

[Simon Mayo]

But someday I would become the sole heir.

[Mark Kermode]

I just had to wait for all

[Simon Mayo]

of them to die. There were seven of them.

[Ryan Gosling]

Seven rich.

[Simon Mayo]

Between myself and $28 billion.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, call me when you kill them all. So that voice at the end. Call me when you kill them all. That's the voice of flirty femme fatale Julia, played by Margaret Qualley, who our main character, played by Glenn Powell, has had a thing about since childhood and has her own. Own fatal agenda. So in the Ealing, you've seen kind hearts and chorus, right? I mean, comedy, like, years ago.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, but it's kind of. It's. It's just in the blood, isn't it? Everyone's sort of seen it, but famously, Alec Guinness played eight members of the Gascoigne family, and that was kind of the gimmick. None of those gimmicks here. Glenn Powell is Beckett Redfellow. We meet him in a prison cell just before his execution. A priest comes to visit him, and he's in very good spirits. And he starts to recount his story. His story that he was the son of Mary, who was dispossessed by her wealthy family after becoming pregnant, you know, by the wrong sort of chap. In adulthood. He then realizes that the only way, I mean, his mother's wish, was that he gets what's coming to him, that he gets his due. Don't let anybody stop that. And then he realizes that the only way to do this is to kill off the relative standing between him and his inheritance, starting with his obnoxious cousin Taylor. And after the first murder, he finds it surprisingly easy. He suffers very little remorse. In fact, he goes to Taylor's funeral, meets his dad, who feels sorry for our hero, and then offers him a job in the family finance firm. So he starts to make money. He starts to make his way up the greasy pole. And the. And the killings continue. Now, apparently the script for this was on the Blacklist. We, we mentioned this quite a lot. This is basically a list of the best unproduced screenplays. So this was a way back, back in 2014. John S. Baird was signed on to direct it in 2019, with Shia LaBeouf and Mel Gibson starring, apparently. And it's impossible to imagine what that unlikely pairing would have brought to this project, which was then retitled Huntingdon. But this version, now helmed by Ford, the thing that it mainly has coming for it is that its central star is incredibly likable. Glenn Powell cemented his credentials in Richard Linklater's Hitman, you remember that? Which he basically plays this unlikable schlub who somehow comes to wow audiences. You like that film, right? And it was, it was. It's an interesting.

[Simon Mayo]

Richard came on the show to talk about it.

[Mark Kermode]

He did, he did. And so, you know how's. Got this kind of megawatt smile that makes people really like him. And then of course, in Edgar Wright's the Running man, he's the main guy. And again, he plays this guy. He's very unlikable. He's got anger management issues, and, and he's very unreliable, but it's him. And so therefore you like him. So here he's this social climbing serial killer with no moral qualms, but he wins us over because it's him. And I honestly can't imagine a film starring Shia LaBeouf and Mel Gibson bringing any of that to the screen. So the result of this is likable and at times entertaining, which is fine until you start thinking that it's a sort of, you know, remake. Loose. Remake. Well, not that loose of a film that was really funny and really dark all at the same time. And this isn't in the same ballpark. I remember really well that when the Cohen's Lady Killers came out, I was on a program that used to exist, Newsnight Review. And it was on after Newsnight, and it would be a panel of people talking about film. And Tom Paulin was on it. And Tom Paulin had found the Coen Brothers Lady Killers really funny money. But crucially, he didn't know anything about the original. He hadn't seen it. So if you know nothing about Kind Hearts and Coronets, although I think we've established that most people sort of do,

[Simon Mayo]

I'm not sure that that's true anymore.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, fine. All right. Well, in that case, to give it the benefit of the doubt, if you've never. If you don't know Kind Hearts and Coronets, you might find this passably distracting and entertaining, but you would be so much better off watching the original, because whatever is right with this, it can only walk in the vast overpowering shadow of a film that is so infinitely better than this that it's impossible to get that out of your head. Also, it is worth mentioning Margaret Qualley has got two registers. The brilliant one and the one that's not brilliant, which is the Driveway Dolls. Sadly, this is in the note not brilliant category. But then in her defense, I think her role is not very well written. So if you know nothing about Kind hearts and Coronets, go and watch Kind Hearts and Coronets. You might find this perfectly fine. Right, but you really should be watching another film.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so that's how to make a killing Correspondence at Kevin&Mer.com. and speaking of timeless comedy, it's the laughter. Listen, lift. Staying with a little bit of science fiction here. Hey Mark, what do the Daleks say when they get on the 44A bus in Honiton?

[Mark Kermode]

I don't know. What do the Daleks say when they get in the 44 bus in Honiton?

[Simon Mayo]

Exeter mate. Exeter mate. Exeter mate. That's.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, it's good. It's very poor. That's very, very poor.

[Simon Mayo]

If you got a better Doctor who and Exeter joke. Anyway, if you think that's poor, you wait for this, okay? Hey Mark, I was walking home in showbiz North London last night. I saw a massive cheesecake, a mad looking enormous trifle and a funny looking Battenberg. Yes, you're right. The streets were strangely deserted.

[Mark Kermode]

Hey,

[Simon Mayo]

this one will go down badly. I went to the doctors this week, Mark, with a suspicious looking mole. I mean, you know exactly as I was told to by my doctor. And the doctor said they all look like that. Mr. Mo, please put him back in the garden where you found him. I mean, how. Telegraph indicator.

[Mark Kermode]

Here we go.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, extimate was good and then strangely deserted also worked. Anyway, what are you doing next, Mark?

[Mark Kermode]

Still to come, review of one last deal.

[Simon Mayo]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boys Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi?

[Mark Kermode]

It's not a battle. So glad the Saja boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share.

[Simon Mayo]

No, it's our honor.

[Mark Kermode]

It is a larger honor. No, really, stop.

[Simon Mayo]

You can really feel the Respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.

[Mark Kermode]

Participating McDonald's while supplies last.

[Simon Mayo]

Susan Galbraith was a housewife in Mayfield, Kentucky. But after a murder in town, Susan took it upon herself to find witnesses who could point to a killer.

[Mark Kermode]

She thought she was going to be

[Simon Mayo]

a hero, but that's not what happened.

[Ryan Gosling]

The lies, a lot of lies.

[Simon Mayo]

What were Susan's real motives?

[Mark Kermode]

She wasn't in it to help them find the killer.

[Simon Mayo]

Why then did the cops take her seriously? It was known that she was getting funds from them. Susan's son is wrestling with his mother's legacy to this day. I mean, my mom was.

[Ryan Gosling]

I used the word diabolical.

[Simon Mayo]

And perhaps the biggest question of all is, is did she help convict an innocent man?

[Mark Kermode]

I do feel like that they got the wrong people.

[Simon Mayo]

From Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard. This is my mother's Lies, available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to the binge can listen to all episodes all at once ad free.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

An email here from Simon and leon C to correspondencecodemo.com Dear Crash and Crash. No, not that one. The weird one. I just listened to your great extra show about women in film and heard again Mark berating Simon for mentioning the sex with cars thing. I think it's light, light hearted banter.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, light hearted bant.

[Simon Mayo]

It reminded me that when Crash, the weird one came out, JG Ballard was asked probably frequently, what is this sex with cars thing all about? It's a bit weird. To which he would point out, have you heard men talk about cars? To which I would say, not particularly down with the Nazis. Whatever uniform or suit they're trying to distract us with, with weirdness, openness and compassion.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, I guess you, I guess, you know, there is that men and motors, Top Gear kind of of, well, hey, can you hear the throb of the engine? Yeah, kind of stuff. I just have never been, just never really, you know, you can love driving a car without being a part of all that nonsense.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I know, but I think it's, you know, it's the whole thing with the, with the Ballard and cars thing is it's to do with the culture around them. It's not to do with, I mean you, you and I don't feel like that about them, but you are aware of the fact that other people do. And also as far as the battle thing is concerned, it's, it's to do with people in hermetically sealed bubble. You know, people Moving around in hermetically sealed bubbles, not actually kind of interacting in any other way. And it's to do with, it's to do with a bunch of other things.

[Simon Mayo]

Jen, your friendly Edinburgh tour guide says. Dear Gardy and Lou, forgive me for correcting the good doctor, but as an Edinburgh tour guide who daily talks about gardiloo, alas this is not the origin of the word loo. We actually don't know the origin of the word loo. One theory is Waterloo, as many chamber pots were made in Waterloo and stamped with the name name or it's from the French lieu meaning place, as a subtle way of indicating the need to

[Mark Kermode]

go to the toilet.

[Simon Mayo]

Gardiloo is another theory, but unlikely. In Edinburgh, when we heard guardyloo from above, we would reply in Scots hold ye hand to indicate to the person to wait and give those beneath them time to get out of the line of fire. Technically you could only do Gardiloo at 7am and 10pm, but given that hold your hand exists, people probably ignore the this time constraint. Jen signs off Lang may yalum reek, which obviously means long may your chimney smoke. Jen, you're friendly Edinburgh tour guide, very good.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I'm, I'm. Yes, it does, thank you for correcting me. I'm sorry, that's one of those things that I'm, I, I had always taken to be true and I am very, very happy to be corrected on that. So thank you for that.

[Simon Mayo]

Langmay alum reek. I like that.

[Mark Kermode]

That's very good. Long may your chimney smoke. Very good.

[Simon Mayo]

Good Jen, thank you very much. Correspondence code.com. right, let's. Oh, one last deal.

[Mark Kermode]

Should we do that? One last deal. So this is the new film from Bren Downey whose CV includes the the Tom Holland medieval flop Pilgrimage and the straight to shudder supernatural horror the Cellar. So the script by Peter Howlett, about whom I could find nothing online, this, I think this is only IMDb credit. The script does read very much like a kind of, of like a one man stage play. So plays out in one room one day, one character on screen who makes phone calls, fields emails, watches tv. This is old school football agent Jimmy Banks. Now we know he's old school because he's wearing kind of pantomime trousers and comedy braces, you know, and goodness me, yeah, he's dressed like an old school, you know, football manager and he swears a lot. Indeed, the film is rated 18 for very strong language. So Jimmy is recovering addict who's estranged from his wife and daughter. He's desperately trying to close a deal on his player client who is awaiting a verdict in a rape case. If the client is found not guilty, the money will flow in. If he is found guilty, everything will fall apart. So the entire film, as I said, plays out in this office with him fielding phone calls from the client who wants the deal closed and also from another potential client who he is trying to snare to sign up to a foreign team is a clip.

[Simon Mayo]

You're making the payment up front?

[Ryan Gosling]

Most of it.

[Simon Mayo]

Some in add ons. How do you want to proceed?

[Ryan Gosling]

Well, if me and you could come

[Simon Mayo]

to some sort of common ground, I'll get Roberto on the call and then

[Mark Kermode]

you can complete it.

[Simon Mayo]

He'll then send you the offer by email.

[Ryan Gosling]

Listen, let's get this done today, all right?

[Simon Mayo]

Let's get these sheets lodged. I don't want no one getting wind of it. 100 cap cash and 20 add ons.

[Ryan Gosling]

So no foreplay. Okay, 80 cash.

[Simon Mayo]

30 add ons. 90 and 30. 90 and 10.

[Mark Kermode]

19, 20.

[Ryan Gosling]

What does it feel like to have

[Simon Mayo]

the biggest balls out of all the CEOs in the Premier League?

[Mark Kermode]

Uncomfortable in women's underwear. So also on the phone. Oh, he's lawyer. Lawyer. And I said more importantly, his daughter whose birthday's forgotten and who wants him to help out. Help her out. And her mum, his ex. And they know that he's got money stashed away from a dodgy property deal that he had he hid in the divorce settlement. Then there's also on the phone a blackmailer whose voice altered identity is so shockingly obvious that Jimmy must be the only person in the room who doesn't realize who it is. The blackmailer has got evidence that Jimmy's client is guilty. And moreover, they know that Jimmy has the money to pay them off, even though he says he doesn't. So at the center of all this is a very beloved British soap star and presenter who recently won a BAFTA for best Male Comedy Performance and is now widely considered to be a national treasure. Which is a remarkable comeback for somebody who spent decades starring in increasingly dismal Brit pics and leaning into this kind of football hooligan hardman act, the zenith of which saw him fronting. And people do need to be reminded of this, a Zoo magazine advice column in which he advised people the way this column was and he fronted it and they would ring him up and he would, would, he would tell them, you know, what he thought and then they would write this up as a column. He didn't physically write it but he would narrate it. And so it was. A heartbroken reader wrote in and said, you know, I've broken up with my girlfriend. What. What should I do? And the column that appeared under this gentleman's byline said, I'd suggest going out on the rampage with the boys, getting on the booze and smashing anything that moves. Then when some bird falls for you, you can turn the tables and break her heart. Part, of course, the other option is to cut your ex's face and then no one will want her. Now, unsurprisingly, this led to a huge backlash and the actor in question said, oh, I didn't intend that. I, you know, they shouldn't. And there was a whole bunch of just nonsense about it. So he had later spent a long time insisting that his hard man act was just an act. And he was a really, really lovely guy. And to prove the point, but what a lovely guy he was. He spent the next several years threatening to break my nose because I laughed at him. And that went on for absolutely years. So very good way of demonstrating you're actually really, really lovely is to threaten physical violence against people who find you ridiculous. The main grievance seems to be that this actor is not given credit for the fact that decades ago he had a fairly promising stage career, which was a career that you then torch with all these awful Brit pics. And he's desperate to be seriously as an actor. And in this film, he is the only actor on screen and he is given the opportunity to take an overdose of acting pills. I mean, there is so much acting going on in the film. He has actually described this as kind of my Hamlet, and I think that is the best way of describing it. So in cinemas at the moment, you have Scarlet, you have Hamnet, you have Hamlet, and you have one last deal. I mean, I have to say that it is an expansion. To quote an old critic referring to another movie actor. He runs the gamut of emotions from A to B. He gets to play both sober and drunk, both sweary and very sweary and sweaty and very sweaty. He also gets to play ukulele very badly and to sing a chorus of Lime in the Coconut, which you can barely hear over the sound of Nielsen spinning in his grave. And then there is an impromptu dance sequence which I think is probably, you know, an audition for strictly. Most importantly, there is an awful lot of very close up mouth acting. You know, lots of emotions registered through the bearing of teeth and the stretching and scratching of a beard. He also has an annoying thing which is that the character, before they do any major phone call, takes three quick breaths. In fact, this was so central to the character that the film was originally called Three Quick Breaths and then it ended up being called One Last Deal. Crucially, he also gets, during the course of the thing to realize how terrible violence against women is, which honestly is a subject which I think neither the film nor the actor have got any handle on whatsoever. The visual style is overwrought. I mean, the whole thing is. It is like spending 90 minutes it up the nose of the lead actor. It's close up, Extreme close up, Very extreme, close up. And then occasionally just a little bit further away so that you can see that actually the art directors, the production designers have done quite a good job of, you know, evoking the office. It's 88 minutes long. It felt much longer than that. And it'll be coming soon to a streaming service near you.

[Simon Mayo]

Correspondence at kevin and mayer.com should you seen the film film and wish to comment or even if you just want to comment. Dear Fly Girl and Fly Boy says Simon Barofsky renouf in the New Forest. So he's probably, you probably know him. Do you know Simon?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, we were having a drink with Stellan Skarsgard.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Peter Starstead, Amanda Seyfried.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, Simon says, Dear Fly Girl and Flyboy. The year was 1980. I was seven. My father's birthday was on New Year's Day. And this year my parents were going to a party at a hotel run by their friends as as the hoteliers had a child the same age as me. I came along to be babysat upstairs by the older teenage brother. Said brother then proceeded to load up a VHS copy of Romero's dawn of the Dead. I was transfixed and terrified. The experience of discovering real horror and a zombie apocalypse for the first time would have a life changing effect on me. Me bear in mind that Simon was seven. The immediate effect, of course, was a month of nightmares. But over time, through movies like Jaws, the Thing, Nightmare on Elm street and the Lost Boys, my love of horror grew to the point of obsession. Just ask anyone who has ever tried to tell me that the infected in the 28 franchise are zombies brackets in capital letters. They are not. Except that down with anyway. And then Simon signs off. Down with illegal wars. Up with humans like the good Dr. Singular, Kim Newman and the Fright Fest and Fangoria Cruise for continuing to shine a light on independent horror. I'm clearly excluded from this. That's fine. And I am over it already. But, Simon, thank you. But in general, it's not a good idea to show seven year olds no dawn of the Dead.

[Mark Kermode]

No, it absolutely is not.

[Simon Mayo]

No, that's, that's the general point. Simon, thank you very much indeed. That is it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team was Jen, Eric, Josh, Heather and Dom. The redactor is Simon Paul. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcast, come and join us on Patreon for all the great stuff, magnificent stuff and wonderful stuff. Mark, what is your film of the week?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, it's not the best of weeks, but I think on the strength of the visuals, it's scarlet.

[Simon Mayo]

Thank you very much indeed for listening. I am going to bestow a year's ultra membership to our correspondent of the week, who I think I'll give it to Jen, our friendly Edinburgh tour guide guide for just telling us more about Gardiloo and all that stuff. Jen, thank you very much indeed. If you'd like to get in touch with the show, it's correspondenceobenamer.com Take Two has landed where this one has in a very healthy and fecund field. So please.

[Mark Kermode]

That's a word that's not used enough.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, I'm gonna try and say it a bit more often then. Anyway, thank you for listening.

[Mark Kermode]

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