THREE FILMS OF THE WEEK? Is that even allowed? + Olivia Colman

Summary

Kermode & Mayo’s Take – Episode Summary

Podcast: Kermode & Mayo’s Take
Date: May 14, 2026
Episode: "THREE FILMS OF THE WEEK? Is that even allowed? + Olivia Colman"

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Overview

In one of their most jam-packed episodes, Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo dive into an exceptional array of new film releases—so many, in fact, that Mark cheekily reserves “film of the week” for THREE movies. With their signature wit and camaraderie, the duo offer in-depth reviews of Obsession, Normal, and The Christophers, answer lively listener correspondence, and share a rich, warm interview with Olivia Colman and director Sophie Hyde about their new film Jimpa. The conversation covers film, grief, kindness, queer identity, and the power of good cinema to bring people together.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Kermode Heads to Cannes

[04:04]

• Mark is excitedly off to Cannes for the premiere of the director’s cut of Ken Russell’s The Devils, finally seeing the light after years in limbo.
• Fun details around the festival’s traditions—talk of high heels “protests,” black tie requirements, and Mark’s lack of formalwear.
  • “I do think that I should go wearing heels. I think that would...I've got size 14 ft, all the women barefoot and all the men in high heels. That would be fun.” (Mark, 07:20)

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2. Featured Film Reviews

A. Obsession

[09:16]

• Written & directed by Curry Barker, a filmmaker with a comedy background (like the Filippo Brothers and Jordan Peele), now turning to horror.
• Plot: Bear (Michael Johnson), a shy music shop employee, harbors a secret crush on his friend Nikki. Instead of confessing, he gets her a magical “One Wish Willow.” When he selfishly wishes for Nikki to love him more than anyone—things spiral with terrifying results.
  • “It’s not a million miles away from spiking someone’s drink—there’s something really sinister about...imposing your will on someone else.” (Mark, 12:32)
  • The film uses the “monkey’s paw” horror trope—be careful what you wish for—and explores coercion and control.
  • Mark praises the “really, really scary smiling in it,” likening it to Ringu and Pearl, and admires the creepy, glossy smile performances.
  • “There's a great central performance by Indian Averette, who plays Nikki, and she is amazing in the film.” (Mark, 15:05)
• Tone: Nasty, tense, “twisted as anything”—not for the squeamish (Simon quips he’ll watch with “the lights on”).

B. Normal

[68:09]

• Star: Bob Odenkirk. Director: Ben Wheatley.
• Setup: In this “dark comedy actioner,” an ordinary-seeming sheriff (Odenkirk) fills in at the quirky town of Normal, Minnesota. The town has raised a suspiciously large sum for a new town hall, everyone’s strangely nice, and there’s a legendary moose.
  • “Basically there’s a touch of Fargo about it and a touch of Hot Fuzz.” (Mark, 68:09)
  • The plot takes a wild turn after a snowstorm and power outage turns things violent and chaotic—very much in Ben Wheatley’s “visceral, physical” directorial style.
• Highlights:
  • Henry Winkler as the mayor, a “laid back” town with dark secrets.
  • Mark loves Odenkirk’s “doer, miserableist, resting face that we've all come to love.”
  • “You get all the deadpan stuff that I like and then you get all the Ben Wheatley chaos that I like. It just romped along...properly a popcorn movie.” (Mark, 74:39)

C. The Christophers

[51:48; 56:49]

• Director: Steven Soderbergh | Writer: Ed Solomon
• Plot: Michaela Coel plays Laurie, a disenchanted artist/forger recruited to help siblings uncork a family legacy involving their aging father (Sir Ian McKellen), a once-famed painter with a trove of valuable works.
  • “It’s a melancholy odd couple movie—a very late in life coming of age story. You could even say.” (Mark, 52:17)
• Performance:
  • Mark raves about the electric dynamic between Coel and McKellen, with Soderbergh’s “dancing camera” making what could be a stagey premise “cinematic and fresh.”
  • The supporting cast includes Jessica Gunning and James Corden as hilariously “cannibal” children.
  • “It is the most Sir Ian McKellen role I think he’s ever played…he’s fantastic.” (Mark, 56:49)
• Themes: explores authenticity, family resentment, legacy, and the difference between art and forgery.
• Both hosts think it’s a strong awards-bait performance for McKellen: “He probably will [win] for this—it’s his turn.” (Simon, 60:13)

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3. Interview: Olivia Colman & Sophie Hyde (Jimpa)

[35:47]

Format: Olivia joins from Canada, Sophie from Australia; interview conducted by Simon Mayo.

What is Jimpa?

• Title is a portmanteau: John Lithgow’s character is Jim, a grandpa—thus, "Jimpa."
• Personal and intergenerational narrative about a mother (Colman), her nonbinary teen (Ord Hyde-Cater), and her gay father (Lithgow), grappling with identity, legacy, disagreement, and the pursuit of kindness.
  • “It’s a kind of intergenerational story about three members of a family and then the extended family around them.” (Sophie Hyde, 36:09)
• Deeply autobiographical for Hyde—wishes she could have had her late father and child in the same room to talk about queerness.

Themes Explored:

• Robust kindness vs. avoidance
  • “I think kindness is a really specific word...It’s not about just being sweet to everybody. It’s saying, like, can I think differently about this? Could I choose a different path?” (Sophie Hyde, 41:31)
• Family collaboration (Ord is Hyde's real-life child); authenticity of experience in the narrative.
• Getting the film released proved “surprisingly difficult, even with the best people in it,” Hyde notes (47:28).
• Love for John Lithgow (“a giant personality, this giant, like, thespian…very exciting”), and how filming resonated emotionally for Colman, who’d recently lost her own father (46:46).
• Light moment: “Who puts tofu in risotto?” “That’s all kinds of wrong.” (Simon, 48:33 / Colman, 48:36)
• Hyde on her dad: “He would be so delighted to know who these guys are in it...I’m pretty sure he would also say to me, like, why didn’t you do a more exciting bit of my life where I could be a bit sexier?” (Sophie Hyde, 48:47)
• Colman’s dad: “He’d have loved it. He’d have sat there and cried all the way through.” (Colman, 49:19)

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4. Box Office Top 10 & Listener Responses

[19:03–30:55]

• Fun, affectionate debate over box office entries.
  • Sheep Detectives: Listeners laud it as surprisingly heartfelt, dealing with grief (“I was fighting tears in the final five minutes”—Johnny in Austin, 28:46; “It’s about grief and remembrance...it was a scene which had me silently sobbing”—Chris, 26:46).
  • Devil Wears Prada 2: “The main problem...is there is no devil. Meryl Streep’s Miranda is now the slightly edgy aunt you might want to hang out with.”—Coco (30:36)
  • Billie Eilish: Hit Me Hard and Soft: Praise for concert atmosphere and connection with fans.

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5. Additional Listener Correspondence & Notable Moments

• Freytag’s Pyramid Explained

  • Tom Della (Grantham teacher) sends in classic story structure breakdown, using Toy Story as example. (65:28+)
  • “So that is obviously taught...Exposition, initial incident, rising action, climax, falling action, resolution, denouement.” (Simon, 67:54)

• Laughter Lift

  • Simon attempts (and fails) at some groanworthy puns:
    • “We got 30 off a two man tent at Millets...it was the winter of our discount tents.” (Simon, 62:07)
  • Mark snorts at Simon’s “twin” joke (“That’s the first time that’s happened in the laughter lift.”—Mark, 62:13)

• Podcast Family

  • Running banter about intros, outro, and exclusive Take Two and Ultra Patreon offerings.
  • Simon jokingly bestows “correspondent of the week” to Tom Della (76:20).

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “If you’re a horror fan, it’s great. It’s got the Fright Fest seal of approval and it’s really easy to see why.” (Mark, 16:31)
• “The reason it works...is that underneath it is a very real story about coercion, about control.” (Mark, 12:32)
• “It could have felt stagey in other directors’ hands, but that only occurs to you afterwards.” (Simon, 59:34)
• “Kindness...is a very robust choice. It’s not about just being sweet to everybody.” (Sophie Hyde, 41:31)
• “Just remember this film when it comes to voting—when it comes to the end of the year and decision time.” (Simon, 60:13)
• “My film of the week is The Christophers and Normal and Obsession—the normal Christophers obsession.” (Mark, 75:10)

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• [04:04] Cannes/Devils/Kermode’s high-heel stance
• [09:16] Obsession Review
• [19:03] Box Office Top 10
• [35:47] Olivia Colman & Sophie Hyde (Jimpa) Interview
• [51:48] The Christophers Review
• [68:09] Normal Review
• [62:07] The Laughter Lift (Simon’s worst/best puns)
• [65:28] Tom Della’s literary lesson

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Tone & Style

• Warm, gently irreverent, but thoughtful.
• Mark is geekily erudite and obsessed with detail; Simon is gently needling, arch, and set up/satirical with fantastic timing.

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Takeaway — Why Listen?

This episode is a triple feature—Kermode & Mayo at their best—spanning taut and twisted horror, small-town satire, and awards-hopeful drama, wrapped around a smart discussion about kindness and collaboration in filmmaking with Olivia Colman and Sophie Hyde. For film lovers balancing popcorn nights with meaningful stories, and for anyone who relishes intelligent, genuinely funny film chat, it’s a sweepingly good week.

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Host Films of the Week:

• Mark: "The Christophers and Normal and Obsession—the normal Christophers obsession."
• Simon: "How fantastic to have three...what a week."

Transcript

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

Which one was that?

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

So I don't have to buy a new SIM card when I get there?

[Mark Kermode]

Nope. There's no queuing at a dodgy airport kiosk. A Saily ESIM only needs to be installed once and then you use the same one for each country you visit.

[Simon Mayo]

Great. Does it let me skip all the other queues too?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, funnily enough, with Sali Ultra you can enjoy VIP travel perks like airport lounge access, fast track services, priority support, advanced online security and much more.

[Simon Mayo]

You'll be telling me we've got a voucher code next.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh yes, and don't forget to apply the code. Take to T A K E at checkout to get a 15% discount.

[Simon Mayo]

Howdy, partner.

[Mark Kermode]

Hello, Simon Mayo.

[Simon Mayo]

I was just thinking the other day about the good old days.

[Mark Kermode]

What? The good old days in the Wild West. What's with the howdy partner thing?

[Simon Mayo]

Well, I was just thinking that when we started out in the radio. Yeah, we were lucky because we had each other to bounce off. But most people don't have that support from a partner when they're starting out in business and they can get overwhelmed easily.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, very true. But they could try Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names like Mattel and Heinz to brands just getting started.

[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Simon Mayo]

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a Vanguardista and get an extra episode every Thursday, including bonus reviews, extra viewing suggestions, viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas, plus your film and non film questions answered as best we can in questions you can get

[Mark Kermode]

all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head to extratakes.com for non fruit related devices.

[Simon Mayo]

There's never been a better time to become a Vanguardista. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're already a Vanguardista, we salute you. I heard your stomach rumble there. You need to have breakfast.

[Mark Kermode]

Sorry, are we. Have we started?

[Simon Mayo]

I expect so.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, did we start with you going 1, 2, 3, 4, 5?

[Simon Mayo]

No, we started with your stomach.

[Mark Kermode]

My stomach. Okay, fine, thank you very much.

[Simon Mayo]

Have you had breakfast?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I've had coffee.

[Simon Mayo]

That doesn't count as breakfast.

[Mark Kermode]

Don't really. Do you know this? You know I don't do breakfast.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, you. You do, but a little bit later.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, exactly. It's called tea. All right.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. All right. Well, here we are in the same room. That's the only way that I noticed this thing.

[Mark Kermode]

Had I been staying in your house, ye then maybe I would have had breakfast because you could have forced it upon me. But as you know, what happens is yesterday I rang you say, Simon, I don't suppose there's any chance that I can stay in your house?

[Simon Mayo]

It turned out there wasn't.

[Mark Kermode]

You said no, it's got an Australian in it.

[Simon Mayo]

Australian from California.

[Mark Kermode]

So how. How can they be an Australian from California?

[Simon Mayo]

Originally from Australia, moved to California.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay, fine.

[Simon Mayo]

Does that make sense?

[Mark Kermode]

Yep. Then that kills that joke stone dead. In that case, fine. Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

What was the joke?

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, no, it's just I thought that would, that would be, you know.

[Simon Mayo]

Why are we in a room anyway?

[Mark Kermode]

Why are we here? We. Because I'm. After we record the show here, we're gonna do take one now we're gonna do take two. Yes. Then we're gonna take Ultra.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes. Live.

[Mark Kermode]

Live. Live.

[Simon Mayo]

Just like this.

[Mark Kermode]

Just like this. And then I'm going to fly, fly like the wind from here to Gatwick Airport to go to Nice. Because I'm going to can. And I'm going to. Can use the C word. Yes, I know the C word. And I'm going to can because it is the premier tomorrow night. What is tonight? Wednesday, Thursday. So by the time you're listening to this tonight of the director's cut of Ken Russell's the Devils, which is finally being released. And as you know, I was kind of involved in. In finding some of the missing scenes and we've been trying to get it released for ages. Anyway, it's finally happening. So the premiere is tomorrow night in the salbon. Well, at 9:15 in the evening or the Morning in the evening. You could do 9, 15 in the morning for the premiere.

[Simon Mayo]

But they can. They do shows all the time.

[Mark Kermode]

They do, yeah, they show.

[Simon Mayo]

So in your carrier bag, you're on

[Mark Kermode]

bag, you're up out there.

[Simon Mayo]

What do you take to go to a thing at Cannes?

[Mark Kermode]

I've got my suit because you have to wear black tie, apparently. But I don't have black tie.

[Simon Mayo]

High heels. Do you have to have high heels still?

[Mark Kermode]

There was a whole year in which there was a whole. The protest because they would make. They said that women had to wear high heels. And so all. I know, just ridiculous.

[Simon Mayo]

How about. It's like. That sounds like something from the 50s.

[Mark Kermode]

I know. And so the way that the. That all the women protested was they all went up barefoot. They literally. Even if they had heels, they took them off and walked up the carpet barefoot as a protest. Which was quite right. So, yes, I'm gonna do that. And then that's going to finish round about midnight and then I'm on the first flight out on Friday.

[Simon Mayo]

So are you ignoring the nightlife of Cannes?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

What about having a dip in the sea?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

Why not?

[Mark Kermode]

Have you been to Cannes?

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Have you been to Cannes when the festival's on?

[Simon Mayo]

Not that festival. I mean, when another festival has been on.

[Mark Kermode]

What other festival?

[Simon Mayo]

Tv. Selling tv. We were selling the Itch TV show and the.

[Mark Kermode]

Didn't know this.

[Simon Mayo]

The places were full of, you know, representatives of TV companies around the world. So you go and sit next to some O and you say, this is a very good show. And they go, really?

[Mark Kermode]

Why?

[Simon Mayo]

I go, well, because of all these reasons. Okay, thanks.

[Mark Kermode]

Next, you know, did you have any meetings on yachts? They were all.

[Simon Mayo]

The meetings were as short as Wes street and going to see Karma, which by the time this goes out might have become hugely important.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But did you have any yacht meetings or were they all in tents or in cubicles?

[Simon Mayo]

They were all in. In hotel lounges. Okay. You know, that kind of thing.

[Mark Kermode]

And whilst you were there.

[Simon Mayo]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Did you go swimming?

[Simon Mayo]

I think so. Because the weather was really, really nice and we were staying in a nice hotel and they had their own beach, so we went down. And the hotel had their own beach?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, yes. Which hotel were you staying in?

[Simon Mayo]

I've got no idea.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well, the hotel I'm staying in doesn't have its own beach.

[Simon Mayo]

Really? Well, you should have a word.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. With it.

[Simon Mayo]

With the devils.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And they're gonna. They're gonna say, yeah, you're here for one night. Stop, you know.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

That's fun.

[Simon Mayo]

That's very exciting.

[Mark Kermode]

It's very exciting.

[Simon Mayo]

You're off to.

[Mark Kermode]

So I'm going to get up and I'm going to say, ladies and gentlemen, here it is. You know, Ken would have been thrilled. The director's cut of Devils. And I'm going to watch it because they've done, you know, they've, they've remastered the whole thing. And then I'm going to.

[Simon Mayo]

You should stand up again and protest like you did that time Mark dragged out of the film he's introduced. It's not like that. It shouldn't be like that. How dare you. Out you go. And take your heels with you.

[Mark Kermode]

Actually, I do think that I should go wearing heels. I think that would. I've got size 14ft, all the women

[Simon Mayo]

barefoot and all the men in high heels. That would be fun. Well, until we get to that moment where Mark is taking off and disappearing to his showbiz lifestyle, thank you. You have to do some work and you need to talk enticingly about the films you're going to review.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, we've got an absolutely packed show. We've got reviews of the Christophers. Sir Ian McKellen was on the show last week. Fabulous interview. So that's out this week. We have Obsession, which is a new horror movie which I can guarantee you're not going to enjoy.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, I won't see it.

[Mark Kermode]

You won't see it, exactly.

[Simon Mayo]

But why not?

[Mark Kermode]

I'll do it when we get to the review. Okay. Body Horror and Normal, which is the new Bob Odenkirk movie directed by Ben Wheatley. And also our very special guest.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, yes, guests. In fact, Olivia Colman must be about the most fated. Well, one of the most fated UK actors at the moment. Yes, you would think.

[Mark Kermode]

And you asked a killer question about was it harder to work with your daughter or the Oscar and BAFTA winning Olivia Colman.

[Simon Mayo]

All this is to come. Sophie Hyde is the director and it's one of those things where it reminded me a little bit uncomfortably of COVID because I'm sitting in my room in North London and Olivia's in Canada and Sophie Hyde was in Adelaide in Australia. So we were spanning the continents. But it's a very interesting conversation. And that movie is Chimpa, which. And so you'll hear that chat in this take.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, and then we're gonna have to put the review in take two because we've got too much in take one.

[Simon Mayo]

And I think we're also putting it on YouTube so that.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, we will do exactly.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Sophie Hyde]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And also in take two, a review of Northern Soul Still Burning, which is a documentary about Northern Soul music.

[Simon Mayo]

That's a good title.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, very good.

[Simon Mayo]

All very entertaining. I think maybe correspondencerman.com tell us about a film that, that is out that we might be interested in.

[Mark Kermode]

So obsession, okay, 18 for strong violence and gore, and that's why you're probably not going to enjoy it. So Indiewire, talking about Obsession, said it was proof that the cragga fication of the Craig Ification of 2020's horror is in full effect. And what they meant was that this is the latest horror film from someone who, like the Filippo Brothers, who made Talk to Me and Bring Her Back, and Zach Kreger, who made Weapons, which you really liked. And Barbarian, made their name in comedy, often online comedy shorts, and then went on to make really sharp, really nasty horror movies. Bear in mind that, you know, you could go back to Jordan Peele and get out because obviously he has a background in comedy as well. So there is this definite sort of train of people coming into horror through. Through comedy and then doing really interesting stuff. So Fright Fest have been doing screenings of Obsession, which I knew in advance. So I kind of knew.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

It's got the Fright Festival, you know, stamp of approval. Written and directed by Curry Barker, who made a splash in a sketch comedy duo called that's a Bad Idea, was making short comedy and horror shorts for YouTube. Made his feature directorial debut with a found footage horror film called Milk and Cereal. Now this Obsession. So this follows Bear, played by Michael Johnson, who is this sort of shy, retiring guy who works in a music shop. And he's got a massive but unstated crush on his friend and workmate Nikki. She's his closest friend, but he wants to let her know that he wants her to be more than just a friend. And actually we meet him at the beginning, practicing the speech in which he says to her, look, you know, you mean more to me. And then it cuts away and actually he's just practicing it and his best friend is going, that's rubbish. You know, that's absolute rubbish. You're not gonna get anywhere with that. He can't get up the courage to tell her that he loves her. Instead, she loses a crystal necklace and he goes into a crystal store, you know, a sort of hokum store to buy one. He can't find the right one. What he does find instead is this thing called a one wish willow.

[Simon Mayo]

And it's a box that sounds like trouble.

[Mark Kermode]

Sounds like trouble with a willow in the middle of it. And when you take it out, it makes a funny noise and you break it in half and you make a wish. Okay. And he says, yeah. And of course, as is the way with horror films, you know, it looks like it's like a novelty. It's a kind of retro thing. But on the other hand, the thing might work. So he buys it for her to give it to her. And it's kind of, you know. Cause it's cute. But then he doesn't give it to her. What he does is as she gets out of the car, as he's dropping her off, he breaks it in half himself. And he says, I wish that Nicky would love me more than anybody else in the world. Which happens with very bad results. Here's a clip. One wish. Will you only get one wish? I wish Nikki Freeman loved me more than anyone in the entire world.

[Simon Mayo]

I love you.

[Olivia Colman]

Song, song, song, song.

[Simon Mayo]

So much

[Sophie Hyde]

a love only the branch

[Olivia Colman]

of a willow tree could conjure.

[Mark Kermode]

It's weird how you two are dating all of a sudden.

[Sophie Hyde]

Like super dating. I think Nikki is going through something

[Mark Kermode]

like.

[Simon Mayo]

What?

[Sophie Hyde]

Is she okay?

[Simon Mayo]

No.

[Mark Kermode]

Jeez. What? Coughs Bullets you put on her.

[Simon Mayo]

They have shops like that in Boscastle.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, do they?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, where you go in. They offer you.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Things like that for a lot of money to go. I'm not buying that.

[Mark Kermode]

There's also the. The Museum of Witchcraft in Boscastle.

[Simon Mayo]

That's the one I'm thinking of.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Oh, fine.

[Simon Mayo]

That's where it is.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay. Well, it's. I mean, on the one hand, there's sort of. There is a tradition in movies, like, you know, in big. It's the thing about. Oh, the fairground thing. You know, you make the wish and it will actually come true. And then what do you then do with it? Well, apparently the writer director was first got the idea for this. He was watching an episode of the Simpsons, and it was an episod of the Simpsons that refers to the monkey's paw. So the monkey's paw, as you'll know because you're a big Stephen King fan, that's one of the kind of the urtext tales of horror, which is basically, be careful what you wish for, because your wish may come true. And in this particular case, that is absolutely what happens. That he wishes for something and then it does come true. Now, on the one hand, that's a kind of, you know, that's an outlandish fantasy. The reason it works, however, is that underneath it is a very real story about coercion about control. I mean, the fact is he makes this wish that then effectively imposes his will on somebody else. I mean, it's not a million miles away from spiking somebody's drink. There is something really sinister about the fact that he has done this. And from then on what happens is that she becomes more and more cracked because what's happened is that her free will has effectively been overtaken. That bit you heard at the end of that, of the laughter, the laughter and the smiling in this film is really, really scary. Remember there was those horror movies, the smile movies, in which you smile and really bad things happen. And I talked about Mia Goth at the end of Pearl in which there's just this one shot of her smiling and it holds it, and it holds it for three minutes and the smile becomes really, really terrifying. This has got really, really, really scary smiling in it. And then it's got the kind of. The moments of what's described, as I said in the bbfc, as, you know, violence and strong gore. That of the grisly moments of Bring Her Back. And I thought it was really, really well done. There's a bit of Ringu in the people moving in a strange way going on there. There's a little bit of Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. But most of all, there is this whole really weird story about imposing your will on somebody else and then having to deal with the effect of that performances.

[Simon Mayo]

Does a wish count as that?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, I mean, that's the point. It's like it's a horror tr. With all horror films, they only actually work if they make some kind of sense. And the monkey's paw thing is always. It is literally be careful what you wish for. And that is something which people say in the real world, not just meaning wish for. It means be careful what you long for. Because the thing is, you might get the thing that you long for and that may not be something that you actually necessarily want. There is a great central performance by Indian Averette, who plays Nikki, and she is amazing in the film. But I thought the whole thing was really well done. And I came out afterwards in a character, a colleague of mine from. Oh, actually Boyd said. Boyd Hilton. And he said that was really wasn't it. And I said, yeah, it was really, really. It was really, just really, really, really messed up. But we had a great time. But it was as twisted as anything. And it's, It's. Yeah, it's. It's full on. And I really liked it. And it's. There are things in it that are really, really, really.

[Simon Mayo]

Is it body horror?

[Mark Kermode]

Some horrible things happen to bodies, but I wouldn't describe it as body horror. I say it's closer to a possession movie.

[Simon Mayo]

I don't think it's gonna happen.

[Mark Kermode]

There's no cars in it.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, okay. Well, I mean that, but, but better to have sex with a car than someone who's possessed by the devil. But what if the car's obsessed with it? I don't know.

[Mark Kermode]

You're not going to see it. But honestly, if you're a horror fan, it's great. Like I said, I. I knew it had the Fright Fest seal of approval and it's really easy to see why.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. If you see correspondence kermodemade.com Also, should I go and see it? If it turns up on a streamer, I might. With the lights on, that kind of thing. Do you think you won't?

[Mark Kermode]

You'll watch the first half hour of it thinking why on earth did Kermode fuss about this? And then you'll watch the second hour through your hands.

[Simon Mayo]

So it's hard. More hardcore than weapons.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a different kind of horror, but. Yes, but yes.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, but it's really, it's really. Okay, bottom of page five now.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

Still to come after the break.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm not, I'm not on page five. I've got it on the thing. You read it. You read my bit.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. Bob Odenkirk in a Ben Wheatley directed film called Normal. Yeah, the Christophers which stars last week's guest, Sariyah McKellen. Simon says. And can we have two national treasures on the show in the space of two weeks? Yes, we can. Because also we speak to Olivia Colman who is with director Sophie Hyde talking about the new movie which is called Chimpa.

[Mark Kermode]

And when you say Simon says, does that mean I have to do it?

[Simon Mayo]

That's right. You lose all self control and it's a bit like the last movie.

[Mark Kermode]

It's a bit like Obsession.

[Simon Mayo]

Simon says. Read the script in just a moment. Make every get together chill this Memorial Day. Get up to an extra thousand dollars off select top brand appliances like LG

[Mark Kermode]

plus get free delivery at the Home Depot.

[Simon Mayo]

Tackle pool towels and camp laundry with a large capac capacity washer. And host in style with the fridge serving craft ice, mini craft ice cubed ice and crushed ice. Shop appliance Savings now through June 3rd at the Home Depot offer valid May 14th through June 3rd US only free delivery on appliance purchases of $998 or more.

[Mark Kermode]

See store online for details. You thought this was your run Club era. Turns out it was more of a

[Simon Mayo]

thinking about Run Club era. The good news?

[Mark Kermode]

Someone's marathon training is about to start. Sell your workout gear on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll

[Simon Mayo]

take care of the rest. They get their race day fit and

[Mark Kermode]

you get a payout for trying. Someone on Depop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Depop, where taste recognizes taste.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, box office top 10 time before we get there. Legends, which is on Netflix, which obviously doesn't turn up in the movie box

[Mark Kermode]

office top 10 because it's on telly.

[Simon Mayo]

But we have been talking about it. What with it? You reviewing it?

[Mark Kermode]

Yep. And you speak into that Steve Coogan, that one.

[Simon Mayo]

Someone who appears to be called Paperless Writer. Either that or they work for a company called Paperless Writer. Anyway, it's on YouTube. Thank you. Mr. Paperless was right. Who knows. Already watched the first episode and this one looks like a keeper. Despite the lightness and genuine, genuinely funny lines, this is serious stuff. And the actors are all fantastic. Luckily, in the us Netflix drops all seasons episodes at once, so I can watch this as quickly as I want. And as gripping as it is, I don't see this six hour season taking me more than a weekend to get through. It's that riveting.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

How many episodes have dropped here? Eight.

[Mark Kermode]

All of them.

[Simon Mayo]

All of them. So we're just the same as America then? In that case. So thank you, Paperless Writer. But it is one of those shows you think, okay, better watch the next.

[Olivia Colman]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Loved it. Loved it. But I watched four because that's what they sent us as a preview, thinking that that was everything. And I got to the end of four and as you said, it is. You can't leave Bulldog Basil there. Correct.

[Simon Mayo]

So into the 10 now the Magic Faraway Tree is at 10.

[Mark Kermode]

Lovely. Seven weeks in the top 10. Very good. Great.

[Simon Mayo]

Family film number nine, Iron Maiden, Burning Ambition.

[Mark Kermode]

So there were two music docs out last week. This and the Billie Eilish film. I did the Billie Eilish film. So I haven't seen Burning Ambition. Do we have any emails?

[Simon Mayo]

No, but you. But I'm in it.

[Mark Kermode]

You're in it?

[Simon Mayo]

I'm in the Iron Maiden documentary.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, really?

[Simon Mayo]

What do you do? Introduce them on Top of the Pops?

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay, fine. How do you know that if you haven't seen it?

[Simon Mayo]

Because I've been told by. By Nikki Chapman, who works at Magic, which is a companion radio station to Greatest Hits.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

And I see her every evening because she's about to go in just as I'm leaving. And her other half is the manager of Iron Maiden.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, okay, fine.

[Simon Mayo]

So she said we went to the, we went to the, to the opening.

[Mark Kermode]

Went to the premiere which was in Leicester Square. Because it was.

[Simon Mayo]

And I turned up and.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh yeah. So what do you say? And now Pot pickers, Iron Maiden.

[Simon Mayo]

To be honest, it'll probably be something like.

[Mark Kermode]

Something like that.

[Olivia Colman]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

I feel as though I should have got paid though.

[Mark Kermode]

You feel like you should have got told.

[Simon Mayo]

If I'm in the Iron Maid, I'm in a top top 10 movie. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

I was watching that film Lynch Oz. I'm in that. I didn't know that I was in that. You should be paid. Well, apparently not.

[Simon Mayo]

They can't just use you like that.

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

And they're taking away all your self control.

[Mark Kermode]

There was an episode, there's an edition of Sight and Sound recently that had interviews with, with actors. I did two of them. They were, they were, they were transcriptions of the interviews I did on stage with Daniel Day Lewis and Jesse Buckley. No idea.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, they need to pay you.

[Mark Kermode]

Well, apparently not.

[Simon Mayo]

Get your agent to get in touch. Okay. Iron Maiden at number nine. Hokum is at number eight, which I enjoyed.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean I thought it worked well. And I think that's, that's horror. That is much more in your wheelhouse.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Wheel Park. Wheelhouse, Caravan park.

[Simon Mayo]

Just go down the park. I quite like that though.

[Mark Kermode]

Let's use Wheel park now. From now on.

[Simon Mayo]

It kind of works and everyone knows exactly what you're saying. Project Hail Mary 7 here. Hokomi is also number 8 in America. And Project Hail Mary is 7 here and 7 there. Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Amazement. Amazed. We both like it. I like it more than you do.

[Simon Mayo]

And both. And at number six here. And they're the Super Mario Galaxy movie number five here. But number one in America is Mortal

[Mark Kermode]

Kombat 2, which I enjoyed and I, I, I, I thought it was a step up from the previous Mortal Kombat which was a step up from the previous Mortal Kombat. But I thought this was really enjoyable and I like Carl Urban in it very much.

[Simon Mayo]

Sammo via our YouTube channel. Is the movie great? I don't know. Not really. Is the movie fun? Yes, it definitely is. My biggest gripe is that it' apparent who can do martial arts and who cannot. The Liu Kang Kung Lao film was absolute martial arts film bliss. I wanted more of that. Kano steals the show again. I wish Urban As Johnny Cage was as awesome as Linden ashby was in 1995's Mortal Kombat, I still thought he was fun. The biggest issue I had with Cage was he's still supposed to be an awesome fighter. And I feel like In Mortal Kombat 2, Johnny Cage is 99% comedy and 1% fighting. I'm 41, but I remember when, even with the gore at the time, Mortal Kombat was geared towards kids and young people. Mortal Kombat gore and games have gotten so graphic now. I don't even think kids experience Mortal Kombat or care.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well, I haven't played Mortal Kombat. I've only seen the films. But I did enjoy this film.

[Simon Mayo]

You still don't play computer games?

[Mark Kermode]

No, I mean, I think I'm a bit late to start. And just to be absolutely clear, nothing against them. I think they're great works of art. I've talked to Charlie Brooker about it. I've watched. You know, my kids grew up playing them and love them. It's just not a skill that I have.

[Simon Mayo]

And number four, number five over there, Billie Eilish. Hit Me hard and soft. The tour brackets concert, which is directed

[Mark Kermode]

by Billie Eilish and James Cameron, who says at the beginning it's gonna say Billie Eilish and then James Cameron in tiny letters and then at the end it says directed by James Cameron and Billie Eilish. But it's. I mean, it's a great concert film and I'm a big fan of the. Of everything she does. I mean, I just think.

[Simon Mayo]

Are you a fan of the 3D mark?

[Mark Kermode]

I'm not, but it's in 3D and honestly, I kind of forgot about it. They seem to have slightly tweaked the. How difficult it is to sit the glasses on your glasses. Cause I've got quite heavy glasses frames, but I put them on and honestly, I forgot about it.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. David Hopkins says dear Bad Guy and Bird of a feather, having been lucky enough to attend the Hit Me Hard and Soft tour. Oh, wow. What a treat it was to enjoy it again in this amazing mashup of concert film and documentary. And what a joyful alliance between James Cameron. Three Oscars and Billie Eilish just the two. One of the grand old men of Hollywood still looking to push back technical boundaries. 3D that actually adds to the experience. And a young performer still only testing what seems like her limitless potential. Other concert films tend towards lionizing the performer, but this one emphasizes the communion between Billie and her fans. It was Remarkable how much this was replicated in the communal place of a cinema theater. David, thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

Good.

[Simon Mayo]

Number three here. Number four over there is the Sheep

[Mark Kermode]

Detectives, which I'm actually slightly surprised it hasn't gone into number one, because I thought it was going to. We were talking about it last week when it came out. This is going to be big. I mean, it's obviously done well, but it's not. It hasn't.

[Simon Mayo]

Maybe if it wasn't up against Michael and Deborah. Wes Prada.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Then it would be number one. But, I mean, I thought it was great. I went in not knowing anything about it, thinking, how on earth is this going to work? And then, amazingly, it works. It's really charming.

[Simon Mayo]

Chris says, dear you and you. On seeing the trailer for the Sheep Detectives, I expected a silly whodunit which was solved by sheep by the end. I didn't care who'd done it or why, because that wasn't the story. It's a story about grief, Grief and remembrance. At the heart of it are sheep who want to forget, so the pain goes away. But then the importance of remembering the deceased and honoring them is mentioned. It was a scene which had me silently sobbing. Having suddenly lost two friends recently, The Sheep Detectives is a film that's probably not for young kids, but ideal for older ones and adults, helping those affected navigate through grief and for those experiencing it for the first time understand it. It's got an important message at its heart, but also has great laughs right from the opening logo, the chicken, and the description which will be causing chuckles in Clergy Corner. Many thanks to the friends I've made through listening to your show, who've given me the support, given me their support. And to my dear friends, you'll never be forgotten. Thank you, Chris. Anthony.

[Mark Kermode]

So you're absolutely right, incidentally, that you're absolutely right about that.

[Simon Mayo]

Anthony in Huntingdonshire. Who knew? I like the comparison that it is akin to Babe versus Knives Out. But more than that, it's a gentle introduction for a younger audience into the genre of the whodunit. There is only minimal threat, although I concur with Mark that one scene is very sinister for a PG and practically no injury detail. Regardless of the intended audience. I'd like to commend the film on how well crafted, how well crafted it is to fit the genre. There were enough clues so that the audience could deduce the perpetrator just before the reveal, but it wasn't so blindingly obvious as not to be a puzzle with red herrings aplenty creating the necessary diversions along the way and Johnny in Austin. Greetings from deep Too deep in the heart of Texas. I write to you about sheep. What a strange, strange movie to choose as the first to write to you about. After a decade of listening. This evening my wife and 16 year old daughter dragged me to a screening of the Sheep Detectives. I knew little about it going in and didn't care to know more. I was expecting an animated feature at the level of, oh, let's say trolls. And I was busy planning how to entertain myself with pacing. The popcorn consumption. First observation. Walking in, sprinkling of kids, as in two or three. It was a theater packed with middle aged adults. Second observation. I was fighting tears in the final five minutes. And then there's an explanation which I skip over. Final observation. Adults all around me were quietly clapping as the film ended. It was as if we all let out a collective, much needed sigh of appreciation at an experience of human, or at least sheepish decency. Yes, it's a strange smoothie of a movie, but there's something deeply normal and simple in its spirit. The Texans around me needed it, as did I, in a Time and Land giving into its grotesque streak. It was a small but true pleasure to see so many celebrate an outcast winter lamb being accepted into the herd. It felt relieving and right to celebrate care. The film had multiple such moments of goodness in its bumpy, strange ride. The applause didn't last too long and everyone dispersed in oversized trucks to continue to confront, endure or embrace whatever it is we are becoming over here. But for one strange, strange moment, we saw and applauded decency. It was a really weird movie. Sheepishly Johnny and Austin.

[Mark Kermode]

It's a fantastic email. What a wonderful experience. And I think those emails collectively demonstrate why it was that I thought the film would go in at number one.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, you would see it if you lived in the middle of Austin. Have you ever been to Austin?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

It's a, you know, Texas is weird. Austin is absolutely fabulous. Okay, we should go and do the show in Austin and Johnny, Johnny can be the only person in the audience. But it's, you know, it's why south by Southwest is. It's just absolutely fantastic.

[Mark Kermode]

I'd say there was a moment when you said it's absolutely. I thought, where's, where's Mayo going? Are we crossing the Rubicon?

[Simon Mayo]

That would be a strange thing. Anyway, number three over there. Number two, here is Michael. Lots on this, but nothing worth reading out. And number one, although there is some in, as you might imagine, Imagine take. And the take.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh. Intake Ultra. Okay, fine. Okay, great. Okay, good.

[Simon Mayo]

And number one here and number two in America is the Devil Wears Prada too.

[Mark Kermode]

Which is, you know, it's fine, but it's. It's a lot of plot and not much else.

[Simon Mayo]

Coco says the main problem with DWP2 is there. So actually I should say the full title because it makes sense.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Dear, Dear Pry and Mark or Pre and Mark Primark.

[Mark Kermode]

It's a joke about Primark.

[Simon Mayo]

There you go. Is I say Pre Mark. Anyway, the main.

[Mark Kermode]

You don't. You don't. The good lady ceramicist. Oy. I'm off to Pre Mark. Pre. Mark.

[Simon Mayo]

The main problem with Devil Wears Prada 2 is there is no devil. Meryl Streep's Miranda is now the slightly edgy aunt you might want to hang out with. Mark was right. I can remember parts of the original. Not so much this time. Shoehorning in shots of what I am sure are famous designers. Looked a bit desperate. Love the show. Thank you, Coco.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Simon Mayo]

So that's the number one. We are. There's lots more in this when we get to the overflow car park in take two, which is available via Patreon. You are moments away from my chat with Sophie Hyde, the director and Olivia Coleman, the star of Jim Pa.

[Mark Kermode]

Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney Plus. Let's go get ready for a new case.

[Sophie Hyde]

We're gonna crack this case and prove we're the greatest partners of all time. New friends, you are Gary Destiny. And your last name, The Snake Dream Team.

[Simon Mayo]

Habitats.

[Mark Kermode]

Zootopia has a secret reptile population. You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home. You're clearly working at Zootopia 2. Now available on Disney. Rated PG.

[Sophie Hyde]

I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies. Just because we finished rewatching the Office Office does not mean we're going anywhere. Every Wednesday we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the Office and our friendship with brand new guests. Plus, you can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. So follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Simon Mayo]

By the way, Mark, have you heard more than once Vanguard Easters. Vanguard Easters get Not only Take one. So I've taken the corporate shilling here. I've swallowed the Sony shilling. Vanguard Easters get. Not only take one ad free but our weekly extra show Take two ad free and if you sign up on our Patreon as an Ultra, you get all of that. Plus our fortnightly extra show, Take Ultra. We open with golden era hip hop. Answer emails involve involving breaking bad, bell ringing and film cliches that should frankly be illegal. Paul lovingly over the UK box office April office for April in Grossly Remarkable. And then brave the comment section in Hot Takes and Cold Comfort where things get loud, strange and occasionally unhinged. We finish, as ever, with one last thing where we have to recommend something. And Matt said and Mark says, oh, I've forgotten.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I've remembered this.

[Simon Mayo]

Have you got something?

[Mark Kermode]

I've got.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, that's great. That's Take Ultra for Ultras only. Head on over there if you'd like to join the club. Kaching, thank you very much indeed indeed.

[Mark Kermode]

You didn't say Hot Takes in Cold Comfort where people basically call Mark names,

[Simon Mayo]

which is another alternative title. It's. It's a warning to those who go below the belt. Below the line, which is the same thing. Don't go below the belt. Don't go below the line.

[Mark Kermode]

They're both in the same wheel park, I think. So we are literally collectively losing our minds, aren't we?

[Simon Mayo]

Losing something.

[Mark Kermode]

Just drifting. Senility.

[Simon Mayo]

Right. Okay, let's talk movie and actors and directors. Okay, so we're going to speak to superstar actor Olivia Colman and film director Sophie Hyde. They have made a movie called jimpa. Now it's. Which is J I M P A. So obviously the first question should have been explain the title. Which I don't and they don't. So therefore you. You would listen through the whole of the interview without knowing why it's called jimpa. So I'll explain. Now, it is called this because John Lithgow's character is called Jim and he's a grandpa. But like many grandpas have decided, I don't want to be that. I want to be called something different. I get called Bestafar because that's what it is. Bestafar, because that's what it is in Danish. He decides that he's going to be called jimpa.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

Hence the title of the movie. That's the title. Explanation. You'll hear from Sophie Hyde and Olivia Colman after this clip from the film.

[Sophie Hyde]

Hi.

[Mark Kermode]

Who is it?

[Simon Mayo]

Me.

[Mark Kermode]

You should say your name.

[Simon Mayo]

Not just hello. Don't know who it is or what

[Sophie Hyde]

you want other than otherwise you do like self identifying.

[Mark Kermode]

You hypocrite.

[Olivia Colman]

Hello, it's me, your daughter, Hannah.

[Mark Kermode]

That's it.

[Olivia Colman]

Just a daughter and A filmmaker and a mother and a woman. Is that better?

[Simon Mayo]

Impressive.

[Olivia Colman]

So Miriam gave me her key today because someone didn't leave one behind for me. Who else has a key to the apartment?

[Simon Mayo]

No one like my boss. My home is my temple.

[Olivia Colman]

And what happens if you have another stroke?

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, God, if I have another stroke? Even if you're here, go out and have a coffee. No, I'm deadly serious. That is a clip from jimpa. I'm delighted to say that I've been joined on one continent by Olivia Colman, who stars in the movie, and on another continent by Sophie Hyde, who's the director. Sophie and Olivia, welcome to the show.

[Olivia Colman]

Show.

[Sophie Hyde]

Hi.

[Olivia Colman]

Thanks very much.

[Sophie Hyde]

Hi.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so we have three different time zones, three different continents, but we are talking about one film, and the film is jimpa. It's directed by Sophie. In my experience. No, no offense, Olivia, but in my experience, directors are always better at explaining their movie because it's their movie.

[Olivia Colman]

Absolutely.

[Simon Mayo]

Introduce us to. To jimpa.

[Sophie Hyde]

No, that's a lot of pressure.

[Mark Kermode]

I.

[Sophie Hyde]

It's a film about someone played by Olivia Colman, who takes their teenager to visit their g. Grandfather in Amsterdam from Australia. And that teenager decides they want to stay and live in Amsterdam with him and have a big queer life. And. And Olivia's character just isn't sure if. If she wants that, but doesn't really want to say no. So it's a kind of intergenerational story about three members of a family and then kind of the extended family around them.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. You always make personal and intimate films, Sophie. This one is particularly autobiographical. Tell us how long you've wanted to tell a story sort of revolving around your father.

[Sophie Hyde]

I always thought there was a story in my dad, and he would have liked to have thought so as well. It was actually just after he died, which was 2018, and I had been with him in a hospital room and had quite an amazing experience of talking to him about his life. But I also went back to my own teenage or. And they were very young at the time, only 12 actually, and they just started to, like, become really involved in, like, speaking publicly about their queerness. And they were just starting to grapple with these ideas. And my dad was a very out and eccentric gay man. And I kind of. I honestly, I just longed to put them in a room together. I just wished for them to be able to speak to each other. And so that was the kind of impetus for. For the beginning of the film, is a grandparent and a grandchild talking about what it means to be Queer. And then I didn't know it would stay so kind of closely connected to our lives as, you know, our family. That was a kind of surprise to me. Usually you try and have a little bit more of a veneer over your films and, like, pretend they're not so much about you.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, and at what stage did you think of Olivia Cole Coleman?

[Sophie Hyde]

I mean, when I took that idea to my co writer, Matt, he said, I'm interested in this, but I really am interested in the character in the. In the middle, the person who. Who is the parent of the teenager and the child of the grandfather. I really want to know what's going on for her. And so that was where we kind of started writing from. As soon as we'd written, we were always like, who could this be? Olivia Colman. But it was sort of a joke, like, we'll never get Olivia Colman. We couldn't get her to play this role. So right at the start.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, so, Olivia, how were you introduced to Hannah, your character and the script, which became this movie, I believe?

[Olivia Colman]

Well, it's my agents who sent the script to me and said, would you like to meet Sophie? I just worked with a director that works very differently to me, and I felt a bit sort of disheartened. And they said, you got to meet Sophie. I think you'd really get on well. She works like you work. And so we met on a zoom, and I instantly went, oh, yeah. Oh, no, I like this. This feels. This feels lovely. I was slightly anxious about going away from home. I'm not good at that. So when I first arrived in Australia, Sophie had laid on as much as possible to make it as nice as possible. We went to see wild animals and that were being cared for in a sanctuary, and we had beautiful food. She laid it on thick, and it was great.

[Simon Mayo]

So what were you getting from Sophie just on the basis of that, the script plus the zoom, what were you getting from Sophie that you. That you weren't getting in this previous project that had left you, by the sound of it, somewhat disillusioned?

[Olivia Colman]

Well, Sophie has a history of working with actors in a way which is collaborative and you feel trusted and, you know, not like a warm prop. Some directors, I don't know, just don't understand that you bring anything to it. And Sophie was the opposite of that, you know, And I always do a little bit of homework and ask people, what's it like working with whoever I'm about to work with. And I don't always listen. And that's when I went slightly wrong the one before, but this. Everything pointed to a happy, collaborative experience. And that's. I think it's important, you know, we're not saving lives. We need to enjoy what we're doing.

[Simon Mayo]

And yeah, early on, Olivia, your character Hannah is talking about her parents breaking makeup. And. And you say they chose kindness rather than conflict, which is a theme which kind of runs through a lot of the film. Can. I'll come to Sophie in just a moment. But can you explain the significance of that in the story?

[Olivia Colman]

I mean, Sophie will definitely explain this better than me. It. But I felt that from Sophie as well and everyone on the film. And I was also maybe. Is that possible? But it is possible. Sophie can attest to the fact that it's possible. And that did happen with her family and it happened on set as well. And I love the point. There was a point when Hannah goes, I'm gonna leave now. Please don't take this as an act of aggression. And this is very. Sorry, Sophie.

[Simon Mayo]

Sophie, can you explain that quote just a little bit?

[Sophie Hyde]

I mean, some of that quote comes from like some humor, which is an idea that you have a character who's. Who's non confrontational and she wants to make a film that's non confrontational as well. And the kind of. The humor of that, you know, to see that and to watch a character who on the one hand you think, oh, that's very. You know, that's a very kind of like lofty aim. Like, that's a great aim to, to seek this out. Or is it repression? You kind of have this. This ability to kind of look at somebody in multiple ways. But I think kindness is a really specific word, and I don't think it's always as nice and as soft and as gentle as we kind of, you know, use it. I think it's a very robust choice to choose kindness. It's not about just being like, sweet to everybody. It's saying, like, can I think differently about this? Could I choose a different path? And Matt and I, when we were writing the film, we were constantly like, okay, what happens if. When we think they're going to get angry at each other or they're going to do something that will kind of up the drama. What if they do choose kindness? So we were really exploring that concept of whether that was possible and, and whether you can have disagreement, like loving disagreement within that as well.

[Simon Mayo]

Robust kindness.

[Olivia Colman]

You could have asked Sophie first. You see, that was much better done.

[Mark Kermode]

You know, I think it's both.

[Simon Mayo]

Both sides of the Same of the same robust kindness.

[Olivia Colman]

Simon, well done.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, okay. No, I should remember that. So. So Francis, who is the non binary team to which Olivia Colman's Hannah is the mother in the film, as you mentioned, Sophie is your non binary teen Awed. Was that a collaboration that started even before the collaboration with Olivia? I haven't even mentioned John Lithgow yet. But was that inevitably the first of the collaborations here?

[Sophie Hyde]

It was one of the first collaborations because Ord and I have been in conversation about kind of creative ideas for their life. You know, if you have a filmmaker as a pair parent, that's kind of what you get in part. And Aud is a very kind of switched on, engaged human. So they were constantly asking me to kind of consider my life and the way that I was and that kind of fed into the creativity. So they were really a part of the conversation. I didn't necessarily know that they were going to be in the film. That was like, that kind of was something that we needed to wait and see how that fit in and whether they were the right age, whether it would work with the others, like, and then it felt like that was the right choice at a point. But for sure, creatively they were part of it. They were early stages in the kind of writing and conversation, but they were like, when we started writing, they were 14 and then the character 16. And by the time we shot, I think they were. They turned 19 on set. So, you know, things changed a lot.

[Simon Mayo]

And would you say, Sophie, is it, is it tougher to direct your own child or the Oscar winning, BAFTA winning, Emmy winning Olivia Colman?

[Sophie Hyde]

I mean, Olivia is like, you're lucky

[Olivia Colman]

on the other side of the world.

[Sophie Hyde]

You're just like, you're like, what can you say? Like it's a pleasure, like to direct both of them in different ways. It's tough to direct your own child because I hold a lot of responsibility for them and I don't want them to hold too much responsibility. There's another thing going on. But also I really felt in safe hands with Aud and with Olivia, just, you know, the instinct. And I always felt that there was something new being brought to like every moment of that. So I felt always a great ego with that.

[Simon Mayo]

And when did John Lithgow come into the picture? Because he, he plays the, the, the gay father of Olivia Colmans Hannah. What an extraordinary presence he is. He's just such a wonderful actor. You, you must have felt once you had Ord plus Olivia plus John. There you go. That's the movie Sorted.

[Sophie Hyde]

I mean, it's incredible. Like, the three of them are like a fabulous sort of triangle of difference, I think that kind of really complement each other. I do think of it kind of as an ensemble, too. So we had these other great actors who could come in and round something out, and I felt like everyone was getting a chance to play in different ways in the scene, which was really thrilling. Like, the. The best thing being a filmmaker is being with and watching actors, like, find each other and, like, bounce off each other. So, I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, you're right. John just walks in and he's like this giant personality, this giant, like, thespian, you know, it's very exciting.

[Simon Mayo]

Olivia, had you worked with John before?

[Olivia Colman]

No, and, my God, it was just lovely. And I'd, not long before, lost my dad. And there was a scene where we had to dance together and I used to dance with my dad and John, who feels like he's seven foot tall and he goes, oh, my darling, and just gave me a huge, big hug. And he's just the most beautiful, loving human being. And. And everybody. Kate, Dan, Eamon. We had the best time.

[Simon Mayo]

And Sophie with a cut with Olivia and John there in the cast. Known around the world. Was this an easy movie to get released or was it surprisingly difficult?

[Sophie Hyde]

Oh, surprisingly difficult. But I think that's the case for a lot of films now, as particularly at this moment. It was. I mean, it's not easy to finance an indie film even with the best people in it. Do you know this one we put together because of these guys coming on and then it's been beautifully like. It is getting everywhere, but it's not like one of those things that's like, snap your fingers and there it is in 100, you know, cinemas. A city kind of thing. No, it's been.

[Olivia Colman]

It's.

[Sophie Hyde]

It's taken its time. It's been a slow kind of process of releasing it around the world. World.

[Simon Mayo]

Because of the subject matter, because it's dealing with queer issues.

[Sophie Hyde]

I think it's many reasons. I. I think it's. It's just. Film is like. There's less, there's more films around, they're harder to get seen. Yeah, I think people are nervous about backing this kind of content, for sure. I think this is a very volatile moment and it's not a volatile film. So it's like, how do we. How do you kind of push that in the world? It's not even kind of engaging in the big dramatic argument about queerness. It's sort of people just living their lives and trying to be loving and kind to each other.

[Olivia Colman]

Turning on the news is so miserable. You think you want to watch something which is about kindness and it's funny and it's. I don't know, it feels like the perfect antidote from my point of view. I would watch it twice a day.

[Simon Mayo]

Olivia, there was one thing in your conversation towards the end of the film, and I think you did let us all down. And I think the film didn't answer this question. I adequately. Who does put tofu in risotto?

[Sophie Hyde]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Always a bad choice.

[Olivia Colman]

Such a bad choice. You know, I know I'm. I'm open to tofu. Not in a. That's all kinds of wrong.

[Sophie Hyde]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, I think so. Sophie, what would your father have made of the film?

[Sophie Hyde]

He would be so delighted to know who these guys are in it and that it's being seen and the kind of conversations that are happening around it. I'm pretty sure he would also say to me, like, why didn't you do a more exciting bit of mine life where I could be a bit sexier?

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

I mean, John takes his clothes off all the way through the movie. How much more sexy does he want it to be?

[Sophie Hyde]

Very sexy. It's true. Maybe he would just be totally thrilled.

[Olivia Colman]

Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Olivia, just. What would. Just out of interest, what would your father have made of this film as well?

[Olivia Colman]

He'd have loved it. And he just sat there and cried all the way through. He definitely from that generation, you know, where potentially boys don't cry. He was not one of those. He'd have. Oh, it was lovely.

[Simon Mayo]

I appreciate your time. Sophie, it's time for bed. Olivia, you're just. You just got up. Thank you very much indeed for your time. Olivia, what are you working on now, if I may be so rude?

[Olivia Colman]

I'm doing a Sarah Tream script called Cry Wolf in Kinne Media, which is not nearly as jolly as chimpanzees.

[Simon Mayo]

So, Sophie, what do you work on next?

[Sophie Hyde]

I might. I've got a couple of things, but I'm really exploring this regenerative oyster reef along the South Australian coast and sort of making a fiction film that also looks at the kind of destruction and regeneration of that reef, weirdly.

[Simon Mayo]

All right, well, we look. We look forward to that. Olivia Colman in Canada, Sophie Hyde in Australia. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us about jimpa.

[Olivia Colman]

Thank you. Thanks, Simon.

[Simon Mayo]

If you get the opportunity to have Olivia on the show, then you take it with both hands and you did.

[Mark Kermode]

You got two Laughs with questions. Well done.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, well, you know, I think they were. One was end of the day, probably had a glass of wine. Olivia was just, she was vulnerable first

[Mark Kermode]

thing in the morning. So probably had a glass of wine. Yeah. Yeah.

[Simon Mayo]

Well, you know what, you know what Coleman's like.

[Mark Kermode]

I should say that during that interview when she, she said she talked about the director with whom she had not had a great. I think we figured it out. I'm not going to say, but I think we figured out who that was.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah. Who'd have thought it was Brian Jenkinson? He's such a well loved person. There you go. So, so embarrassing. Anyway, so because we're super packed.

[Mark Kermode]

We are super packed.

[Simon Mayo]

Mark's review of jimpa. JIMPA is going to be in date too also. So, you know, if you're not a subscriber, we'll put it on YouTube as well. So everything is available because we've still

[Mark Kermode]

got two more movies to get through. We is running out of time.

[Simon Mayo]

Also in take two, one frame back is all about favorite Olivia Coleman roles of which there are so many. And you go, wow, I'd forgotten she did. Oh, and I forgot. Oh, and she did that as well. Okay, so lot so thanks to Olivia and Sophie for being on this week's show. Last week I was down Seren McKellen's pub the way you are. Yes. And that's all all up and available for you to to watch. But the Christophers is actually out this week.

[Mark Kermode]

It is so latest from Steven Soderbergh and we do this every single time, right? Steven Soderbergh, the prolific multi hyphenate between behind Sex Lives of Videotape, the Ocean's Remake series, Aaron Brockovich, which Julia Roberts was fated, Traffic Contagion, Magic Mike then went on to be a stage show. He retired from directing in 2013 and since retiring from directing, he's made Lucky Logan Unsane, High Flying Bird, the Laundromat, Let Them All Talk, no Sudden Move, Kimmy Magic Mike's Last Dance Present Blackbird and the Christmas.

[Simon Mayo]

That's my kind of retirement.

[Mark Kermode]

Exactly. So he's really not trying. This is written by Ed Solomon, who is probably best known as a writer on the Bill and Ted movies, but more importantly worked with Soderbergh on no Sudden Move. This is a very different beast. Although interestingly in your interview with Sir Ian McKellen, he did say you shouldn't say too much about the plot because there is a thriller element, there is a kind of mystery element. And I'm probably going to say more about the plot than he would because I think a certain amount of it's in the trailer anyway. So it's described in Wikipedia, incidentally as a black comedy. It's also a kind of melancholy odd couple movie. I think you could even say it is arguably a very late in life coming of age story. So Michaela co obviously brilliant person behind I will destroy you is Laurie. She is this disenchanted artist come forger who is enlisted by these two siblings, Barnaby and Sally Sklar, to take part in a deception involving their aging artist father, played by Sir Ian McKellen. So he was once fated as an artist. He was, you know, was. And then he sort of fell out of fashion. Maybe he was canceled, maybe he was forgotten. He now makes a living recording these paid for cameo videos. You know the ones in which you go and say, oh hello, the one.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, Farage does that.

[Mark Kermode]

Farage does that and famously said a really. Well, look where that. Got it.

[Simon Mayo]

Look where.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, yeah, let's not go down there. Anyway, so they think Barnaby and Sally think that he has some unfinished Christophers, which is a series of paintings that he did up in his attic. And when he dies, which he will inevitably do in the not too distant future, cause he's getting on in life, those paintings will be very valuable. And what they want is for Laurie to get a job as his assistant to find the paintings and if necessary, finish them. Because they know that that's something that she can do. She doesn't want to do it, but they basically strong arm her into doing it because they know things about her that they don't want to come out. So she says, oh, okay. So she takes the job and then begins a sort of cat and mouse in her relationship with this aging, slightly cantankerous artist for whom she is. She clearly has a love hate relationship with his past. Here's a quick clip. Oh, my side walk so long. That was a off to an industry

[Simon Mayo]

who needed someone to say it to them.

[Sophie Hyde]

It was a move that gave you

[Olivia Colman]

cover to pretend it was you, you

[Mark Kermode]

who was in control of his own downfall. No, but no, I done with them, Laurie. Yeah, because they were done with you. Well, as I mean as I said, when Seren McKellen said, you know, well, let's not say too much about the plot, but I think that is basically set up because the whole of the rest of the movie then is the relationship between them and you know, will she follow through on the deception? How will she get on with him? What does she actually want? What does he actually want? And it is clear that there is some kind of backstory in her head about him and why it is that he may or may not be important in her life. In your interview, Sir Ian McKellen said. You said, was this role written for you? And he said, well, I heard that it was written for Mikayla and me, and I can certainly believe it in her case. And I just kind of accept it in my case. I can't imagine anybody else playing these roles. I mean, it is the Most Sir Ian McKellen role I think he's ever played. In a good way. In a really good way. I'm not saying that is a bad thing at all. And he's fantastic. One of the reasons he's fantastic is because obviously he has a background in theater, and there's a lot of handheld long takes. Steven Soderbergh shoots himself, okay? So he operates the camera. He does it under a pseudonym. I think he's Peter Adams. He also edits under a pseudonym. But so it's him doing the things. And it looks to me like what they've done for a lot of the scenes is they've done one long continuous take. And Sir Ian McKellen was saying that he'll do 1, 1, 2, 3 takes, tops. That's it. And he was saying, that's really good, because as opposed to, for example, working with Peter Jackson, in which, you know, there'll be 20, 30 takes, because you've got to get everything completely right in terms of the choreography of the special effects. And the way this works is that it keeps it fresh. I did feel that what you were watching was a really fresh performance. It didn't feel like something that they had 38 runs at. And with actors of this caliber, when you've got Siria McKellar and Michaela Colt together sparking off each other, of course you're gonna get it in, like, a couple of takes. That's absolutely fine.

[Simon Mayo]

And it could have felt stagey in. But that's exactly what it isn't.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. Which is precisely the point about Steven Soderbergh doing the camera. Because actually, when you consider that essentially it's a drama in which a large part of it is two people talking in a room or two people kind of arguing in a house, that doesn't sound very cinematic. But Soderbergh has got such a cinematic. I mean, he, like, the guy lives and breathes cinema. And there is something about the way that the camera sort of dances around them and it is a dance, essentially, that it makes it feel like it's. Like it's a really cinematic experience. I mean, I'm a big fan of Soderbergh's, not least because I think his work ethic is absolutely terrific, but because I think that what he does is he understands what makes something enticing to watch.

[Olivia Colman]

And.

[Mark Kermode]

And in these two performers, he has two performers who have extraordinarily expressive faces. Okay. And one of the things about Michaela Cole's character is that you know that there is a backstory in it. But you know what the backstory is long before anything in the script tells you what the backstory is. And the reason is because she's got one of those faces that just tells the story and the combina. I mean, I'm not saying this is just like an act. She's worked at it. She's a brilliant actor, and that's why she can do it. But it's those things about those little micro expressions that. The tiny, tiny responses. And when you've got the two of them together and they're both working at that level, you just think, this is great, and I really enjoyed it. I think it is about something as well. I think it is about. There is a real melancholia at the heart of it. I mean, on the one hand, it's about art and why we need art and do we need art and what makes art good, and what's the difference between a real thing and a forgery? And as I said, in both the cases, there's this sort of, what is going on with their relations to these paintings? And actually, when all that starts being explained, you go, I know. I knew all of this stuff because I could tell it from the way that you were behaving. Also, kind of interesting that in terms of the horrible children. How does he refer to the horrible children? He says something like the parasites or the cannibals or.

[Simon Mayo]

He's fantastically dismissive, fantastically dismissive of his kids.

[Mark Kermode]

The kids are played by Jessica Gunning, who is a scary stalker from Baby Reindeer, and James Corden. And I have to say, I think they both do a very good job of playing them. But the interesting thing is they're his kids. They didn't just turn into. They didn't come out, just those people. So there is a whole thing as well in the drama, which is this is what. He has generated this kind of level of resentment because he is so cantankerous, or at least has become so cantankerous anyway. I really enjoyed it. Did you like it?

[Simon Mayo]

I thought it was probably one of my favorites so far. I mean, I just thought it was wonderful. In other. In other hands, other directors hands. Other. You think it would feel a bit lumpy and a bit stagey, but that only occurs to you afterwards.

[Mark Kermode]

I think the one thing I was slightly surprised by is the release date because this is not awards corridor now. The Oscars have just happened. And didn't it look to you like. Oh, I mean, I was thinking of like some of the Roger Michelle movies like Venus or something, but I was thinking it's just weird because it's the kind of thing that you think you would release coming up to Christmas because it's so obviously got award special.

[Simon Mayo]

I did mention in the interview, I think that. Because that Serena has never won a BAFTA and he's never won an Oscar and which. Which seems incredible, therefore he probably will for this because as you often say, it's his turn.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, it is.

[Simon Mayo]

But also not just his turn. This is a great performance film. So I think unless the people. I mean, I. I'm a BAFTA voter, but. So I won't forget this. And you would just think, okay, just remember this film when it comes to voting, when it comes to the end of the year or when it comes to decision time.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, well, it's May, so you're gonna have to remember that in January.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, well, I think even I might remember the Christophers and to vote for Ian and for Michelle because I thought it was really, really terrific stuff.

[Mark Kermode]

Me too.

[Simon Mayo]

So that's very good [e-mail]. please let us know what you think once you've actually gone to see it. But now. Oh, gosh, this is going to be so good as we. I mean, I don't. I'm just saying that every week. It's never true. It's never, never true. And it won't be true this week either because it's the laughter lift. Here we go anyway, Mark, here we go. Face to face comedy. That's what this is. Okay, I don't know about you, but I cannot bear door to door salesmen and saleswomen can. You hate them. They get right on my blooming nerves. I had one come around the other day asking me if I thought, if I thought about my funeral arrangements and would I like to buy a coffin. And I said, that's the last thing I need. Hey, that must have been from 1954.

[Mark Kermode]

But what, what's the door to door bit of that? I mean, it's just.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway Anyway, have you ever. It's a bit of a non sequitur. Have you ever dated a twin?

[Mark Kermode]

No.

[Simon Mayo]

I used to court one in my younger days. People used to say, how can you tell them apart? And I always said, oh, it's easy. Allison's always got nicely painted pink fingernails and Terry's got a big bushy ginger beard quite like that one. Anyway, it's very chilly at the moment,

[Mark Kermode]

so I just snorted. Yeah, that's the first time that's happened in the laughter lift.

[Simon Mayo]

That's true. It's a very attractive feature. So chilly at the moment, isn't it? It reminds me of years ago, me and the good lady ceramicist therm doors were down on our luck and we got 30 off a two man tent at Millets and we slept in it from the very November through to March. It was the winter of our discount tents. Thank you.

[Mark Kermode]

That Simon Paul, is a joke from the side of that. That. That army surplus store in wherever it is now is the winter of our discount tents. I cannot believe you passed that off as a laughter lift entry.

[Simon Mayo]

But he's the other side of the glass so he can't actually correspond.

[Mark Kermode]

Seriously, Seriously.

[Simon Mayo]

Anyway, that went down very well, but at least we got a snort.

[Mark Kermode]

It was called Lawrence Corner, wasn't it?

[Simon Mayo]

No idea. Mark, what's to come? Well, Mark says my reviews of normal and the other thing. That's it, it's just normal.

[Mark Kermode]

Normal after this.

[Sophie Hyde]

Chronic migraine 15 or more headache days

[Mark Kermode]

a month, each lasting four hours or more can make me feel like a

[Sophie Hyde]

spectator in my own life. Botox Anabachulinum Toxic A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment prescription.

[Simon Mayo]

Botox is injected by your doctor.

[Mark Kermode]

Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty

[Simon Mayo]

swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness.

[Mark Kermode]

Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle

[Simon Mayo]

or nerve conditions including als, Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome and medications including botulinum toxins as these

[Mark Kermode]

may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor.

[Sophie Hyde]

Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

[Mark Kermode]

Don't sexy Lotharias often behave abominably towards women?

[Olivia Colman]

Yes, but they don't always behead them

[Sophie Hyde]

or split from the Catholic chur.

[Simon Mayo]

History's Greatest Fails is the show where we find out why losers make history. Hosted by me, Dan Jones, and me, Elizabeth Day. We're old friends and fellow history graduates,

[Sophie Hyde]

and in this podcast, we're going to dig into failures of historical proportions.

[Simon Mayo]

Listen to History's Greatest Fails on the this Is History podcast feed or watch on YouTube. Okay, just before we move on, interesting email here from Tom Della, secondary English teacher at the King's School in Grantham.

[Mark Kermode]

Hello?

[Simon Mayo]

All right, Tom.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, Grantham, Tom says.

[Simon Mayo]

Dear Woody and Buzz, I am a secretary school teacher in Grantham, Lincolnshire, and your global brand of witterttainment has kept me sane when commuting to work at the crack of dawn and driving home after a long day of teaching with the sun setting. A big shout out to teachers across the land and students working hard for their staff. Sats, GCSEs, and A levels, and also Scottish hires, which he doesn't mention, but I'm just adding that in. I was listening to your award winning Wayland Yutani Corporation podcast last week.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm glad. That's cool.

[Simon Mayo]

In which you discussed the term denouement. Kudos to Simon for reaching to his bookshelf for the answer, which I did because it was right next to me, as opposed to now, when it is not. Denouement is a term taught in secondary school English classrooms up and down the land, usually within a structure known as Freitag's pyramid.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Simon Mayo]

He was German novelist and playwright from the 1800s. Teachers use. Teachers use his structure to help students understand the plot structure of the text that we are reading, but also to help students create a structure of their own when they're writing stories. In creative writing. In teaching to this to students. The universal example of a plot which adheres to this structure is Toy Story 1, which I know is a movie series dear to your hearts. So here is a helpful diagram. Charlotte, she'll hold up for you. Mark.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, I've got it on my screen.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay. And a very teacherly but concisely precise explanation. 1. Exposition. We arrive in the setting of Andy's bedroom and learn the toys come to life. Woody is Andy's favorite toy. This is the status quo, the balanced norm. Two initial incident, conflict. Buzz Lightyear arrives and threatens Woody's position Challenging the status quo.

[Mark Kermode]

3.

[Simon Mayo]

Rising action. Woody's jealousy leads to Buzz being knocked out of the window and both toys become lost and end up in Sid's dangerous house next to door. 4. Climax. Buzz realizes he is just a toy and with Woody, works together in a high speed chase to get back to Andy. 5. Falling action. Woody and Buzz reunite with the other toys and resolve their initial conflict. 6. Denouement. They become friends and share Andy's attention as the toys settle into a new balance. New status quo. I refuse to use the term the new normal. A heartfelt thank you for all that you do. And the redactor. Perfect. He just types your podcast brings such joy and comfort to your church members. Keeping on during these turbulent times. From Tom Della. So there you go. So that is obviously taught. That's Freitag's pyramid.

[Mark Kermode]

It's very good. I'm reminded of a thing that Kurt Vonnegut used to do, which was a line description of how plots go. And he said how it works is like this. The person starts here, okay? And then something happens to them which takes them up to here. And then something really bad happens which takes them down to here, and then they retribute and it ends and they end up above where they started. He said that's one plot. And the other plot is they start here and then their dog dies and

[Simon Mayo]

it goes all the way down and you trace the exact line. Exactly. Exposition, initial, incident, rising, action, climax, falling, action, resolution, denouement.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good. There you go.

[Simon Mayo]

Look it up. There's lots of that. Anyway, Tom, thank you very much indeed. What else is out, please?

[Mark Kermode]

Well, on the subject of the new. Yes. Normal.

[Simon Mayo]

Oh, is it new?

[Mark Kermode]

It is, it's new. And it's called Normal. So after Nobody and Nobody 2 for Nobody 2, I interviewed Bob Odenkirk for this very show in that Bob Odenkirk played, you know, kind of apparently ordinary Joe who was in fact a killing machine. Now we have another dark comedy actioner in which Bob Odenkirk plays an apparently ordinary Joe who in fact turns out to be. To be quite the person. So this is written again by John Wick creator Derek Kolstad, who apparently wrote the original script or a version of the original script for this before doing the Nobody films on which he and Odenkirk collaborated. And then Odenkirk now gets a story or a co writing credit on this. So I think he had a lot of input into it. So basically there's a touch of Fargo about it and there's a Touch of hot fuzz about it. So Bob Odenkirk is Ulysses, who is this sort of stand in sheriff who goes to the inappropriately named town of Norman Normal, Minnesota. They need a new show. They need somebody to stand in until they get the new sheriff in. So he's just filling in. One of the first things that happens is he sees a moose. And everyone says, oh, the moose is really important. You know, it's a really famous moose around here. It's a figure of some legend. He also sees a sign which says that they have recently raised 16.8 million for the town hall. And he goes, wow, you know, how did you raise 16.8 million? Somebody says, well, the community really came together on that one. So the townsfolk have got. Got this kind of, you know, homespun, you know, mom's apple pie thing kind of cutesiness. But they're also like the townsfolk in Blazing Saddles that they are. You know, there's a side to them. However, as with hot fuzz. And this is the hot fuzz connection behind the apparent, oh, you know, it's a nice town. There's a whole other thing going on for the greater good into which our central character stumbles. Here is a scene in which he is welcomed into the town by the mayor, played by none other than Henry Winkler.

[Simon Mayo]

Okay, good.

[Mark Kermode]

I want to thank you for coming. Of course.

[Simon Mayo]

So let me get this straight. Did I hear

[Mark Kermode]

you saw the moose? I did. I got a picture of it. God damn. I am the only one in this town who has never seen that moose. And I keep an eye out for it. You know, in Native American culture, the moose is a symbol of endurance and survival. So what do you think of our little town?

[Sophie Hyde]

It's charming.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. You know, I hear that you are a very laid back kind of guy. Not a crack the whip sort.

[Simon Mayo]

Is the moose loose about the house? Lord Rockingham's 11.

[Mark Kermode]

Very good. Well done for getting that in. So essentially, when he says, you're not a crack the whip guy, he's basically saying, you know, ah, you might be the guy we're looking for. Somebody who's willing to play along with whatever it is that's going on in this town that enables him to raise 16.8 million for the town hall. And then there is a snowstorm and a power outage, and suddenly our central character finds himself in the middle of exploding events in which it's every man for himself. So I interviewed Bob Odenkirk on stage just earlier on this week, and he said, this Interesting thing, which was, he said, of all the characters these played, I mean, obviously Saul Goodman and the central character in the Nobody films, he said, this is the one that is most like him. Because in Nobody, the gag is that the guy is a sort of retired super spy who's got all these abilities, but in this, he's just full of flaws and full of weaknesses. So when everything starts kicking off, you do get the impression that he actually might get and then he actually might not survive. And that is true. The film is directed by Ben Wheatley. Now, I'm a big Ben Wheatley fan, and it relates, I think, most specifically to a Ben Wheatley film which a lot of people have forgotten about, called Free Fire, which is this kind of sort of shoot up in a warehouse in which Ben Wheatley said this interesting thing. He said, the problem with most movies which have violence in them is that they forget the things that actually make the audience wince. And he was talking about.

[Simon Mayo]

Wasn't talking about the John Denver soundtrack, was he?

[Mark Kermode]

The John Denver soundtrack. Well done for remembering that.

[Simon Mayo]

I interviewed him for it. So.

[Mark Kermode]

Wow.

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah, there was a period when every film had John Denver because his music had suddenly become available in copyright.

[Mark Kermode]

But no, but he was talking about the kind of comic thing about, you know, when an anvil falls and somebody's going to go, dang. And he said, and it's that thing about, you know, if you get your fingernail banged, and that's the thing that really hurts. And in the case of this, when it all explodes, and that is actually the phrase that Bob Odenkirk used. It goes along and then suddenly everything explodes. It works really well because Ben Wheatley understands the mechanics of how to make those seque. On the one hand, there's a lot of kind of slapstick about it, and there is that sort of dang cartoon thing, but there is also the. You feel the wax and you feel, you know, the bangs and the dangs and the dings because of the way that he directs. Cause he's a really, really sort of visceral, physical director. And the result is. I thought it was riotously entertaining. I love Bob Odenkirk. Anyway. He's got that kind of doer, you know, sort of miserableist, resting face that we've all come to love. I mean, I love Better Call Saul Obvious. I think you did, too, didn't you?

[Simon Mayo]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And he's just a great screen presence. And it's amazing that he has gone from that into basically developing this career in action movies. But this worked particularly well, for me, because it, you know, it starts, it plays up, it's got the setup, then there's a sort of where is this going? And then it all goes full on Ben Wheatley. And it was just really enjoyable. And right now it was interesting. Olivia Colman was saying this. Just, you know, you turn on the news and, and, and we, you know, we need a movie that celebrates kindness. In the case of jimpa, I think we also need a movie that celebrates a bunch of people throwing axes at each other and blowing cars up. And frankly, that's what you get in Normal. You get all the deadpan stuff that I like and then you get all the Ben Wheatley chaos that I like and I. It just romped along. And I say this in a really, really good way. It is properly a popcorn movie, but it's got its feet on the ground because Ben Wheatley knows how to do physical and Bob Odenkirk knows how to do with this character because there's interesting stuff going on and it's got Henry Winkler in it, who's just great in everything.

[Simon Mayo]

And a loose moose about the loose

[Mark Kermode]

moose about the hoose.

[Simon Mayo]

That's it for this week. This has been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Scarlett and Dom the redactor, Simon Poole. And if you're not following the pod already, please do so. Wherever you get your podcast, come and join us on Patreon. Mark, what is your film of the week?

[Mark Kermode]

This is really, really difficult because I like all three movies that we've had that. So I'm going to say my film of the week is the Christophers and Normal and Obsession. The normal Christopher's Obsession.

[Simon Mayo]

I'm not sure that counts, but anyway, very good. How fantastic to have three.

[Mark Kermode]

What a week.

[Simon Mayo]

What a week. Three films of the week. We'll be back.

[Mark Kermode]

And remember, Jinpa coming up, review in take two.

[Simon Mayo]

We'll be back next week with Leo Woodall talking about his new movie which is called Tuna, as in T u n e R. It's not about fish. I think I'll bestow a year's ultra membership to our correspondent of the week. Well, why don't we give it to Tom Della in Grantham. That's Grantham in Lincolnshire for telling. For explaining about Freyberg's pyramid or whatever it was. If you'd like a little bit more after take one, head over to take two where we dive into invented words for feelings you didn't know you had gently pedant our way through the misuse of the word fulsome, although I might disagree with that. Argue about lo fi cinema and CGI access. Wrestle with empathy on screen debate. Opera versus Musicals? Shed unexpected tears over Monsters, Inc. And ask. Parody can kill an entire genre. There's folk horror, folk wisdom and folk from Exeter, Birmingham, Brittany, and beyond in Take two kaching available now for subscribers, Head over to Patreon and join in the fun.

[Sophie Hyde]

Day or night, Verbo Care is here 247 to help make every part of your stay seamless.

[Simon Mayo]

If anything comes up or you simply

[Sophie Hyde]

need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out.

[Simon Mayo]

From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly,

[Mark Kermode]

because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.