Convincing Mark Kermode Pirates of the Caribbean is Good

Summary

Kermode on Film

Episode: Convincing Mark Kermode Pirates of the Caribbean is Good
Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Mark Kermode
Guest: Jack Howard
Location: The Sun Pub, London

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Episode Overview

This episode pivots deliberately away from the expected Oscars discussion—both hosts agree the awards are quickly forgotten—to a lively critique of blockbuster director Gore Verbinski, his latest indie pivot Good Luck, Have Fun, Don't Die, and, crucially, a spirited debate over the legacy and merits of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. The episode is a wide-ranging, conversational deep-dive into what distinguishes authentic indie creative expression from corporate “faux-indie” filmmaking, the pitfalls of nostalgia, and Blockbuster era auteurs versus contemporary franchise machinery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Skip the Oscars?

• Ephemeral Relevance: Kermode and Howard dismiss the Oscars as fleeting, quickly forgotten ("by Tuesday, everyone's forgotten" — [01:37], Mark Kermode). Even recent winners are a blur for them.
• Example: Jack can't remember last year’s Best Actor until prompted, and jokes about how little these things seem to matter a day later ([02:06]).

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Gore Verbinski’s Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die: The “Faux-Indie” Problem

The Setup

• Gore Verbinski, known for The Ring remake and Pirates trilogy, returns with a much smaller, time-loop indie Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die, starring Sam Rockwell ([03:19]).
• Film’s premise: A time-traveler assembles people in a diner, trying repeatedly to save the world from AI takeover ([03:30]).

Jack’s Initial Reaction

• Enthusiasm for time-loop mechanics and films à la Palm Springs ([03:58], Jack Howard).
• Disappointed by overlong backstories, lack of payoff, and a sense that promised weirdness never delivers ([04:45]).

Mark’s Core Critique (“Corporate Faux-Indie”)

• “Unhinged” Gore Verbinski? Kermode laughs off marketing calling Verbinski “completely unhinged,” countering, “He’s hinged. He’s bracketed...solidly insulated...the most locked down corporate director you could imagine.” ([06:09–06:10], Mark Kermode)
• Accuses the film of echoing “an idea of an indie film” but seen through a corporate studio filter ([06:44]).
• References to 12 Monkeys, Groundhog Day, and Everything Everywhere All at Once — all films Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die borrows from, but lacks authenticity ([08:16]).
• “It looked like a corporate idea of what a crazy mixed up movie looks like.” ([08:17], Mark Kermode)

Jack on Authenticity

• Contrasts with Everything Everywhere All at Once: “It feels authentic...People who aren’t emulating it, they’ve lived it...It’s like the way Bo Burnham’s Inside could only be made by Bo Burnham” ([08:47], Jack Howard).
• Feels Verbinski’s new indie attempts are “mutton dressed as lamb” — a wannabe youth aesthetic from an older, out-of-touch filmmaker ([10:10], Jack Howard; [10:30], Mark Kermode).

The Problem with the Film’s Ending and Themes

• Late escalation to generic Marvel-style action set-piece undermines any edgy/indie ambition ([11:43]).
• AI-as-villain plot feels dated; “This is already out of date. This has already all happened.” ([11:59], Mark Kermode)
• Riffing on other blockbusters’ endings, notably Into the Spider-Verse ([12:22]).

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The Gore Verbinski Debate: Blockbuster Craftsman or Corporate Hack?

Jack’s Defense: Childhood Nostalgia and Craft

• Grew up loving Pirates of the Caribbean (“In 2003, I was 11...that has been part of my life forever.” — [13:31], Jack Howard).
• Initially dismissed them, but revisiting realized: “They are the kind of big blockbuster movies I miss now...there was a voice and there was a style...” ([13:49], Jack Howard).
• Praises the first film (Curse of the Black Pearl) for filmmaking prowess missing in today’s studio blockbusters ([14:41]).

Mark’s Rebuke: Insufferable Formula & Depp’s Performance

• Finds the series, especially Johnny Depp’s Jack Sparrow, “insufferable”—an endless karaoke schtick gone wild ([15:21], Mark Kermode).
• Depp’s schtick: “It’s like being in a room with a drunk karaoke singer” ([15:21], Mark Kermode).
• Criticizes Verbinski’s lack of directorial control, suggesting Depp just ran wild ([15:45]).

Jack’s Rebuttal: Subversive Success

• Notes Depp’s Jack Sparrow was originally meant to be a “Han Solo” type, but Depp’s spin turned Disney off—yet the result “has aged really, really well, especially the first film” ([17:17]; [14:41], Jack Howard).

Mark’s Challenge: What Else Has Verbinski Done?

• Presses Jack to name other great Verbinski films. Jack only lists Pirates and partially Lone Ranger, admitting the rest of the director’s filmography is uneven ([22:06], Mark Kermode; [22:14], Jack Howard).
• Both agree Rango is Verbinski’s best (and perhaps only fully successful) non-live-action effort ([23:51], Mark Kermode; [23:53], Jack Howard).

On Blockbuster Direction in General

• Jack: “I have a lot of admiration for directors who can helm movies of a huge scale...I think that making movies on that kind of scale is probably more difficult than I can even imagine.” ([33:01], Jack Howard)
• Mark quotes Terry Gilliam: “A film in production is like a ship on the brink of mutiny and your job as the captain...is to bring it into port without loss of life or money. And if you can make art at the same time, well done.” ([33:44], Mark Kermode)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gore Verbinski’s Directorial Personality:
  “He’s hinged. He’s bracketed. ... He’s double glazed. He’s solidly insulated. He is like the most locked down corporate director you could possibly imagine.”
  — Mark Kermode ([06:10])

• On Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die:
  “It looked like a corporate idea of what a crazy mixed up movie looks like.”
  — Mark Kermode ([08:17])

• On Authenticity in Filmmaking:
  “It feels like filmmakers who grew up on the internet making a feature film...It is authentic.”
  — Jack Howard ([08:47])

• Summary Judgment:
  “Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die is mutton dressed as lamb or skateboarding Larry Clark.”
  — Mark Kermode ([10:41])

• Pirates & Depp:
  “It’s like being in a room with a drunk karaoke singer. And I speak as someone who used to really love Johnny Depp.”
  — Mark Kermode ([15:21])

• On Directing Blockbusters:
  “I have a lot of admiration for directors who can helm movies of a huge scale...”
  — Jack Howard ([33:01])

• Terry Gilliam Wisdom:
  “A film in production is like a ship on the brink of mutiny and your job as the captain is to bring it into port without loss of life or money. And if you can make art at the same time, well done.”
  — Terry Gilliam, relayed by Mark Kermode ([33:44])

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Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Theme | |-----------|---------------| | 00:33–03:16 | Oscars apathy explained; intro to episode’s real focus | | 03:19–06:44 | Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die: plot summary, comparisons & initial reactions | | 06:44–08:47 | Kermode’s critique: “faux-indie” vs. authentic indie voice | | 08:47–10:41 | Defining authenticity; “mutton dressed as lamb”; generational tension | | 11:43–12:53 | Thematic and structural flaws in Good Luck…—derivativeness, AI tropes | | 13:05–15:45 | Pirates nostalgia vs. critical dismissal; the Depp debate | | 16:50–17:17 | Oscars trivia: Depp’s “supporting” nomination | | 22:06–24:00 | What else has Verbinski done? Focus on Rango | | 28:24–30:33 | Big studio filmmaking—challenge & shift after Lone Ranger flopped | | 33:01–33:44 | Respect for blockbuster directors; Terry Gilliam’s ship analogy | | 33:44–34:46 | Closing thoughts; preview of next episode |

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Final Thoughts

• Jack’s Position: Verbinski is not a visionary auteur, but a skilled blockbuster craftsman—the kind of “safe pair of hands” missing from many current big studio efforts. He’s nostalgic for that era and feels Pirates particularly ages well.
• Mark’s Position: Verbinski epitomizes the corporate hack—derivative, safe, and unable to achieve true creative chaos or indie spirit. Even his “indie” outing feels corporatized and tired.

Both agree: Whatever you think of Gore Verbinski, directing huge movies is a distinct (if underappreciated) skill, and Good Luck, Have Fun, Don’t Die sharply illustrates the limits of corporate attempts to mimic authentic indie innovation.

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Next episode tease:
The duo will return soon to discuss Project Hail Mary, the Ryan Gosling sci-fi epic directed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Mark Kermode]

hi, this is Mark Kermode. Thanks for downloading this Kermode on Film podcast or if you're watching us on the YouTube channel. Welcome back to the lavish surroundings of the Sun Pub in the heart of London's busy West End, where once again, we're very grateful to the sun for giving us this room. The pub's actually closed.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, they've opened it just for us.

[Mark Kermode]

Especially for us to sit here and talk rubbish. Jack, what particular brand of rubbish are we talking about today? Jack Howard in Silio. You know this.

[Jack Howard]

Anyway, yeah, sure, we were going to be talking about the Oscars because it's. We're recording this on Monday and the Oscars were last night. But do you even care?

[Mark Kermode]

Can you remember what one. No one can. As we've said before, that's the whole thing, the way Oscars work. 24 hours later, it's yesterday's news.

[Jack Howard]

So we don't want to talk about it because it's been talked about to death and who cares? So we've decided we want to talk about good luck, have fun, don't Die, which is probably a film that most of you haven't seen.

[Mark Kermode]

But.

[Jack Howard]

But we're interested in talking about the idea of directors that helmed huge blockbuster movies and then moving on to small independent films. And what does that mean?

[Mark Kermode]

What does that mean? So I want to begin by saying it's the Monday after the Oscars, Sunday night, okay? And we had two things that we might be talking about. One of them we said was, let's talk about the Oscars. But by the time you're listening to this, it'll be Tuesday. And my theory is that by Tuesday, everyone's. Everyone's forgotten.

[Jack Howard]

No one cares anymore.

[Mark Kermode]

We've had this conversation before, but it's like, it's like if we say, who won the Oscar last year, what won Best Picture? And everyone Goes, I can't remember because it's gone really quickly.

[Jack Howard]

We were having this conversation before we started recording, and you were like, who won Best Actor last year? And I paused, and I still haven't thought about who else.

[Mark Kermode]

Adrien Brody.

[Jack Howard]

It was Adrian Brody.

[Mark Kermode]

And the only reason I remember it is because just before we started recording, Jack said, I'm just going to take this bit of chewing gum out. And I went like, Adrien Brody. And that's what reminded me that he won the thing.

[Jack Howard]

How could we forget, with the longest

[Mark Kermode]

Oscar, the longest, most boring Oscar speech in the whole thing. But there is an Oscar element to the conversation which we're about to have.

[Jack Howard]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Which is about the film. Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die. Okay. That is what it's called. Yes. One of those. So I'm not a fan of Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die. And I have a very particular reason for that. But one of the films that it has been compared to, not least by me, is Everything Everywhere all at Once. And I remember really clearly when you saw Everything Everywhere all at Once, because you saw it a long time before I did. And you said, this movie is brilliant. It's going to win Best Picture. And I went, no, it isn't.

[Jack Howard]

So, okay, never doubt me.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I absolutely won't. So good luck, have fun, don't die for anyone who hasn't seen it. And let's face it, that will be quite a lot of people, because it didn't do great business.

[Jack Howard]

No.

[Mark Kermode]

Give us a thumbnail sketch of the. Of the setup of the film.

[Jack Howard]

So it's a new film from Gore Verbinski, who you may know from directing the American remake of the Ring. He also did the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy. Trilogy.

[Mark Kermode]

Trilogy. Well done.

[Jack Howard]

And it's a new film starring Sam Rockwell where he comes back in time and tries to collect a group of people in a diner that are going to save the world from AI. And it is. Yeah, it's a wacky adventure. My opinion on it is I wish I liked it more than I did, because when I saw the trailer, I was like, ooh, that's a bit of me.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so tell me what it was in the trailer that. That made you think that's a bit of me.

[Jack Howard]

Well, firstly, I'm a big time travel nut. Like, if anything's got that kind of element to it and it looks like it's doing it well, you've got me. And this looks like it was having fun with that. It was, you know, I like a groundhog Day kind of, you know, reinterpretation and doing that in a sort of wilder way. I really liked a film from a few years ago called Palm Springs, which I thought was a great addition to that kind of time loop story.

[Mark Kermode]

I think you like that more than I did because I really. Well, I thought it was fine, but it is Groundhog Day.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, but. Yeah, but I really, really enjoyed it, and I like all that stuff. There's been, like, a weird resurgence in them in the last five years or so, but when I saw Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die, I was like, oh, it's. The promise of the premise hasn't really kicked in.

[Mark Kermode]

Like, it's exactly it.

[Jack Howard]

There's a lot of flashbacks and a lot of, like, quite needless, drawn out backstories on characters. And then when it gets weirder, I was like, okay, here we go. And then the film ended.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. So here's my main issue. Okay. And I. I want to know whether you. Whether your lack of total enthusiasm about it has anything in, you know, to do with mine. So, firstly, I love Sam Rockwell. Who doesn't? Yeah, exactly. And it's. It's a good cast and the premise sounds kind of. Okay, fine. So he comes back from the future to this diner where there's a group of people, and he has to find the perfect combination of people who will stop the future from happening. The future in which AI and everything takes over. Because he comes back and he says, I'm here from the future to tell you that it does not work out well. He also says, we're going to have another go tonight and most of you will die. And. But I've been doing this. This is like the 85th time he's done it or the 86th time he's done it. So that's. That's the Groundhog Day things. Okay, fine. That's an interesting setup. So my problems are. They begin very early on. One of the things it said in the trailer is from a completely unhinged Gore Verbinski. Now, those are two phrases that do not sit together. Completely unhinged and Gore Verbinski. Because Gore Verbinski is a lot of things, but completely unhinged is not one of them. In my mind, Gore Verbinski is.

[Jack Howard]

He's hinged.

[Mark Kermode]

He's hinged. He's hinged. He's bracketed. He is, you know, he's tongue and grooved. He's, you know, he's double glazed. He's solidly insulated. He is like the most locked down corporate director you could possibly Imagine. And I think that the main problems that I have with Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die, and I understand this can cut both ways. It reminded me of a bunch of films I like better. Like 12 Monkeys is very specifically referenced.

[Jack Howard]

Oh.

[Mark Kermode]

So clearly there's a lot of that in it. But people say, well, yeah, but, you know, you like horror movies that nod to other horror movies. What's the difference between, you know, an homage and a ripoff? And so the first thing is that it reminded me of a lot of movies that I really, really love, because 12 Monkeys is a big thing for me. I love that film. The second thing is I think that Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die, even in its title, is a very corporate idea of what a indie film looks like. Now, I know that in terms of the amount of money it cost, it was tiny, particularly comparison with Gore for Minsky's other projects. You mentioned the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Gore for Minsky has made a load of really big studio pictures that have made a load of money. So, okay, from a financial point of view, you could argue that. Okay, well, it's kind of stripped down in anarchic, but it absolutely felt like, um, I remember, you know, when I was younger and like punk started, and then very quickly there would be like, oh, you know, this is Plastic Bertrand. It'd be like, okay, this is. This is a version of what the punk aesthetic should be. But we've, you know, we've kind of locked it all down. And I remember when I, when I saw this, I thought the thing about Everything Everywhere all at Once is it genuinely was the anarchic film that you said it was. And I describe as very pleased with this. On the Kermoda Mayo show, I described Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die. Is Everything Everywhere all it twice. And I enjoyed that joke so much that I actually repeated it three times because I was so proud of it.

[Jack Howard]

You should be. It's a good one.

[Mark Kermode]

Thank you. But I felt that it looked like a corporate idea of what a crazy mixed up movie looks like.

[Jack Howard]

I think that you are certainly onto something. I don't know if I'd be as harsh, but I think that the difference is, is that Everything Everywhere all at Once was made by the Daniels, who come from music video backgrounds, they come from Internet videos. And it feels like filmmakers who grew up on the Internet making a feature film.

[Mark Kermode]

Now we should say that you are one of those filmmakers on the Internet.

[Jack Howard]

So it feels authentic when you watch Everything Everywhere all at once. It feels like People who aren't. They're not emulating it, they've lived it. And this is the kind of experience that they're bringing to making feature films now. And it felt. It's like the way that Bo Burnham's Inside could only be made by Bo Burnham because it's authentically using the Internet language to do something more heightened.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. And also when you talk about music videos, people like Michel Gondry came through from music video. Spike Jones has, you know, foot in that world. I remember many years ago, in a previous century, probably writing an article for Direction magazine about advertising directors moving into feature films and music video directors moving into feature films and what they. What they bring and what they don't bring. The standard thought back then was if you work in advertising, you understand how to explain a plot because a pack shot is an exposition thing. But if you work in pop videos, you're not so great at narrative because pop videos are far more just kind of expressive. Well, actually, over the years, that then turned into. Well, maybe that is actually a benefit that somebody who's not tied to arcane narrative forms. And as a. You came out of. As so many cutting edge contemporary directors have done, actually, particularly in the horror genre.

[Jack Howard]

Correct. Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Came out of what you came out of, which was not just Internet shorts, but comic Internet shorts. And I think that that is exactly what Gore Verbinski doesn't have.

[Jack Howard]

I think you. That's exactly right. I think that when I watch Good Luck, have Fun, Don't Die, it feels like somebody who's older trying to do some older trying to do something that feels young. Yeah. And it's that phrase mutton dressed as lamb. It just doesn't. It doesn't quite. I, like, couldn't put my finger on it when I was watching it. I was like, there's something about this that does.

[Mark Kermode]

I can't believe you just use mutton dressed as lamb. Wow.

[Jack Howard]

It's a phrase my mom would use a lot.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

That's what Good luck, have fun, don't die is.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, that is exactly right. It is. That is an absolute. Yeah. It's like I once interviewed Larry Clark, you know, the guy who made kids who I always thought was a creep. And. And I remember saying to him, you know, you're an old guy. You know. You know, how do you get down with the kids? You go, well, you know, I was skateboarding with them. I thought, of course you were. Of course you were. That's exactly right. Yes. So good luck, have fun, don't die is mutton dressed as lamb or skateboarding Larry Clark.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, it feels like somebody who's trying to do an impress of a young independent.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

Feature film. Rather than it feeling like an authentic like, which is what everything everywhere was like, it felt like somebody who had that. It never been done on that kind of scale before with those kinds of. That kind of language from the Internet. And this didn't. This felt like it was promising that. And then didn't really do it. And everything was quite refined and, and almost a bit like. Like it just felt all a bit compressed and a bit structured and it didn't feel like it was anarchic at all.

[Mark Kermode]

And then in the, in the third act, or actually in the case of that film, the seventh act, it tries

[Jack Howard]

to go a little bit bonkers, but

[Mark Kermode]

it just does this. It's like, oh, it's the. We're in the end of a Marvel movie. Just kind of a big action sequence in which a huge, big supercomputer throws people around the room for 10 minutes.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

The other thing I thought was, okay, you're making this edgy, cutting edge movie now about, hey, AI is not great. You go, this is already out of date. This is. This is already all happened. And incidentally, if that is what it's about, why is a USB being involved? It was like. It was, Sorry, have you been anywhere near a computer interface recently?

[Jack Howard]

It also just felt a little bit like a ripoff of the end of into the Spider Verse where it was like, I've got this McGobin thing and it needs to go in there. Don't ask questions. It just needs to go in, which is great. And into the Spider Verse, but feels very like, yeah, just. You're right. It just, it reminds you of all the other stuff that you've seen before that has done it already and done it better. And yeah, my overall feeling was I wish I liked it more. And I didn't get.

[Mark Kermode]

Why do you wish you liked it more? Because, well, I guess what I'm saying

[Jack Howard]

is I wish it was better.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes.

[Jack Howard]

Because I think that the concept and the. And the conceit of it all is really fun and could have been a really, really like. Like a great time at the cinema. But I came away being like, but

[Mark Kermode]

here's the point of disagreement. For me, the fatal flaw in that film is it is un film de Gore Verbinski. And I just want you to tell me, because you said just before we started doing this, he said, I quite like Gore Verbinski. And I just want you to explain how

[Jack Howard]

you set me up for disaster there.

[Mark Kermode]

No, no, tell me. Look, why Gore Verbinski is not the most corporate boring director in the world?

[Jack Howard]

I can't tell you that. I can't tell you that. But what I can tell you is that in 2003 I was 11 and that's when the first Pirates of the Caribbean came out. And so that has been part of my life forever. And I had a period of time where I fell out of love with those movies and thought they were stupid, which is what you believe. And then I come back round again the way you do with things that you liked from childhood and rewatch them and thought, especially for big blockbuster movies. They are the kind of big blockbuster movies I kind of miss now. I think there is so much filmmaking prowess in especially the Curse of the Black Pearl, the first one that is missing from that kind of large scale blockbuster movie now. So I watch it almost nostalgically being like, oh yeah, they, they used to make these kind of movies with like there was a voice and there was a style and almost like filmmaking was. It was a skill that people would use and it didn't feel like very by the book. And, and these movies to me have aged really, really well, especially the first parts of the Caribbean movie. I think it's helmed for a movie of that scale with real class.

[Mark Kermode]

Is it two or three that begins with a comedic scene of Child hanging?

[Jack Howard]

It's not a comedic scene, it's a very dark scene. And it's the third one. It's not comedic at all. You're misremembering that.

[Mark Kermode]

No, I'm remembering it. I'm just remembering. I mean, I remember it not being funny because it's a scene of Child hanging.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

And just thinking, I'm sorry, it's so

[Jack Howard]

a bit out of place, isn't it?

[Mark Kermode]

What are you doing?

[Jack Howard]

They start singing Yoho A Pirate's Life for me in like a slow, like sort of minor key whilst to fight back. And, and it's just.

[Mark Kermode]

I'm sorry, what? Where are we now?

[Jack Howard]

And then there's just this bit where they go, Cutler Becket, they've started to sing. And Cutler Becket goes finally. And I don't know why he wants them to be singing.

[Mark Kermode]

I mean, I'll tell you this, this is honest, right when I went to see the first parts of the COVID I can't stand any of them. I just find them insufferable. I find Johnny Depp's performance insufferable. And people say, oh, but you know Johnny Depp's performance is the really interesting thing. Is it, though, he's like. It's like being in a room with a drunk karaoke singer. And I speak as somebody who actually used to really love Johnny Depp. I mean, you know, nowadays I think he's become just a.

[Jack Howard]

It's an interesting topic to discuss now because it's kind of mixed in with a lot of other bullshit.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. But also he just. He just became ridiculous. He just became somebody. I mean, in Pirates of the Caribbean, he's doing, you know, the Keith Richards impression, and then he then starts doing that in the rest of his life and, you know, in the tattoos and the hats and the guitar on stage at Glastonbury, and they're just behaving like a bozo. You just want to go. Because I interviewed him years, years years ago when he just done. May have been what's eating Gilbert Graham. He was very, very early on, and he was, you know, quiet and sensitive and, you know, and he was. And I thought he was a really brilliant physical actor. I love his performance in Edward. I think it's absolutely great. I love in Edward of Hands. I think he's amazing. I'm not crazy about Benny and June because that just feels like too much, like, okay, fine, you're doing. You're doing that. Let's stop doing that. But I thought he was a very decent actor. And it always seemed to me that in the case of Pirates of the Caribbean, Gore Verbinski just didn't have the. The bottle to say, can you stop doing that? Because it's Johnny Depp and he's, oh, you know, I am Jack Sparrow doing this thing. And it's like, for heaven's sake, it's like the old Michael Bolton thing, you know, if you go there on line two, where are you gonna go in the middle eight? You've got nowhere to go to.

[Jack Howard]

The interesting thing I find about. I mean, firstly, it's kind of relevant, speaking of the Oscars, because that first performance from Johnny Depp was Oscar nominated for Best supporting Actor.

[Mark Kermode]

Was.

[Jack Howard]

And supporting? Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

Was he supporting actor?

[Jack Howard]

I believe so.

[Mark Kermode]

Again, no one can remember because no one cares.

[Jack Howard]

I could be wrong.

[Mark Kermode]

But the interesting thing, you've been supporting, not Orlando Bland.

[Jack Howard]

Well, think that the. I think that is a. It's an ensemble film, isn't it? Parts of the Caribbean. He's not the main character. He doesn't have an arc. But Elizabeth doesn't have an arc.

[Mark Kermode]

But Keira Knightley's character does.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. And so. And so does Will Turner as well. Like, he learns to accept his pirate side.

[Mark Kermode]

Oi yoyoi. Okay, fine.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. Anyway, so the interesting thing I think about that, and it's been talked about a lot and written about a lot, is that the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, Jack Sparrow, was written to be like Han Solo, to be like a cool, like, rogue pirate. And then Jack Sparrow has been played by Johnny Depp as a drunk Keith Richards. And Disney went, what is he doing? Stop him from doing this. We hate this. And I'm with them. And Johnny, you're with the corporate.

[Mark Kermode]

I am. I'm with the corporates. I am. It's right. Stop him from doing that.

[Jack Howard]

And then Johnny Depp said, if you don't let me do this, I'll walk or whatever.

[Mark Kermode]

You don't let me do this, I'll just go like that.

[Jack Howard]

Is that your Jack Sparrow impression?

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

Is that the impression you've got?

[Mark Kermode]

Right. Do me your Jack Sparrow impression.

[Jack Howard]

Okay. I think of a phrase that he uses. Okay.

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[Jack Howard]

I'm thinking about the scene when he goes over to the to the two idiot guards in the first one and they're like, oi, you don't have permission to be here, mate. And he goes, I'm sorry, it's Such a. Such a pretty boat. Ship. How's that? Is that pretty good?

[Mark Kermode]

Not really, no. I wouldn't have recognized that.

[Jack Howard]

Okay.

[Mark Kermode]

Started in comedy shorts on YouTube. I can't do a decent Jack Sparrow.

[Jack Howard]

Let me try another one. Let me try another one.

[Mark Kermode]

He's somewhere between Keith Richards and David Bowie.

[Jack Howard]

Isn't.

[Mark Kermode]

There's a lot of that going on and there's a lot of hair. There's a lot of irrelevant hand work. You. There's a lot of hand acting with Jack Sparrow. This is the thing. Like, if he's. If he's coming, if he's going near a goblet, it'll be.

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A lot of

[Jack Howard]

lives are. I'm gone.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah, but. But that's it. The film's two and a half hours long. You're going to do that for the whole film. And then he does it for the whole series. And then number four starts with a version of him in hell in which there's 50 of him all doing that.

[Jack Howard]

It's the third one.

[Mark Kermode]

Is that the third.

[Jack Howard]

That's the third one when he's in the locker. Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay, so the second one begins with it. Scene of child hanging. And the third one begins with fond.

[Jack Howard]

No, the third one starts with the child hanging and then has 50 Johnny Depp. And has 50 Johnny Depp's. And as a huge woman who's the goddess of the sea, which I still think is stupid. But my point being that originally Johnny Depp's character, Jack Sparrow, was. Was written to be like Han Solo and was performed in contrast to that. Then in the sequels they went, well, we're just gonna write him like that now. And so there's all that contrast.

[Mark Kermode]

Oh, I see.

[Jack Howard]

Is gone.

[Mark Kermode]

So your argument is that the first one is better because there was tension.

[Jack Howard]

I agree.

[Mark Kermode]

But by the time they get the second one, they've leaned into the gag.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. So basically at the beginning of the second one, it starts with, like, him escaping in a coffin. And like, you, like, there's a bird that knocks on the top of the coffin and he shoots. The bird comes out and goes, sorry, mate. And then it all becomes a bit like, I'm a bit goofy and I get away with stuff. And Whereas in the first one, he's. He's supposed to be a bit of a. Like, it was written to be a rogue who's, like, cool and gets things. But he played it like. He played it like an idiot and like, oh, I didn't mean to do that escape plan like that. But it just happens Work out. Whereas in the, in the follow up ones you start doing things with the tribe where he runs away with all the, with like the, the spike on his back and he like jumps between two mountains and it's. It all becomes a bit goofier after that.

[Mark Kermode]

In a rare break from tradition, I'm gonna give you that. I'm gonna give you that.

[Jack Howard]

However I can relax.

[Mark Kermode]

However. Right, so you've got some admiration for Gore Verbinski. Right. Run me through the other Gore Verbinski films that are any good.

[Jack Howard]

That's. No, that's it. I've stopped. I've stopped there. Okay. Because. Because he obviously made the Lone Ranger, which was supposed to be another parts of the Caribbean. Like it was supposed to be another franchise.

[Mark Kermode]

Most expensive movie starring celebrity cannibal Armie Hammer. The first you need to say allegedly and I say no, I know.

[Jack Howard]

You convinced me. It's what this is what the text messages say. We've been through this on a previous podcast. That was the first premiere I ever went to.

[Mark Kermode]

The Lone Ranger.

[Jack Howard]

Lone Ranger, Wow. Instead of, instead of a red carpet, it was. It was a cow. It was cal. Like patterned. I met Jerry Bruckheimer. He's quite a small man.

[Mark Kermode]

He's tiny man. He's got a lot of tiny man energy, isn't he? He's very. He's very. He's very, very, very small and lots of small man.

[Jack Howard]

And it's such a bad film.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

So the train sequence at the end is amazing.

[Mark Kermode]

Okay.

[Jack Howard]

It's so well done.

[Mark Kermode]

Individual sequences is what Gore Verbinski does.

[Jack Howard]

I think he's very, very good at doing big blockbuster filmmaking. Yes. Which I really admire.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

I think it's really difficult to do.

[Mark Kermode]

He knows how to do a big romping set piece.

[Jack Howard]

Yes.

[Mark Kermode]

He has got no sense of narrative whatsoever. Have you ever seen the cure for wellness?

[Jack Howard]

Has anyone?

[Mark Kermode]

Lord in heaven. Well, yes, I have. I mean, that is. It's like the thing when Michael Bay bears his soul by making. And you go, no, no. I actually prefer the horrible, hideous corporates. I don't want to look into your soul. The cure for wellness is a. Is a film. The twist of which is there's no twist.

[Jack Howard]

Right.

[Mark Kermode]

It does exactly what you think it's going to do at the beginning and then it stops. The best thing Gore Verbinski has ever done is Rango.

[Jack Howard]

I do really, really like Rango.

[Mark Kermode]

I think that that is interesting that he is at his best when he's not dealing with live action, but with animation.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I Think what I'm kind of getting at is that I think the Gore Verbinski could have been. Because I think Sam Raimi's gone off the rails. Like, I haven't. I will caveat that by saying I haven't seen his new film. What's that one called? The one where.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, I really liked it.

[Jack Howard]

Yes, Send help.

[Mark Kermode]

Definitely back on the Road.

[Jack Howard]

Okay, so I've been hearing great things about that. I haven't seen that yet, but I think that Post Spider Man 3, maybe you can give Drag Me to Hell.

[Mark Kermode]

I Drag Me to Hell.

[Jack Howard]

But I think that he then did return to Oz or whatever, like Oz the Great and Powerful. And he did one of the Doctor Strange movies that was really bad. I just think that Sam Raimi went off the rails a little bit. But I think Gore Verbinski could have

[Mark Kermode]

been like, okay, the difference is Sam Raimi was on the rails and then went off the rails. Gore Verbinski was never on them. The first time I am aware of Go for Binsky is that it was remake of the Ring. Yeah. Well, Ring it. Ring. You see? Yeah. And it's just. Okay. I really like that film the first time around. And now I have to watch it again in the English language with all the really scary stuff taken out of it. And you're it. It was just there was that period when there was all those J horror hits that were being remade.

[Jack Howard]

Grudge.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. Well, Grudge is slightly interesting case because the original director is involved and you know, actually then Hideo Nakata gets involved later on. But it's a thing about they were great the first time round. Why are you doing this? Because one thing that horror. Horror fans don't care about is what language a film is.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

Horror fans want to see the original as the director intended, in the original language. So I was the whole thing, as I remember seeing Ringu the first time I saw it and I was at the Edinburgh Film Festival and there was that. And I think Audition might have been around about the same time. Which is what Audition is one of the most mad, unhinged, genuinely properly unhinged films I've ever seen. And then they were being, you know, corporately packaged up and. Because obviously Naomi Watts gave a huge boost to her career out of that film, but I never liked that at all.

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[Jack Howard]

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[Mark Kermode]

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[Mark Kermode]

I thought that the only thing that he has, he did that made me think, oh, okay, fine. There is a proper creative spark here is Rango. And the reason that that's interesting to me is that that thing with animation, you are in control of a world in a way that you aren't with live action. And all the best live action directors have a way of embracing the chaos of live action direction. And I don't think he has any of that. I think he, I think he works like somebody who's trying to make an animation all the time. Yes. And Sam Raimi started out with Evil dead, Evil Dead 2, you know, he was making really brilliantly insane movies and then he ended up doing Spider man, which is the weirdest thing because the guy who'd made this film, it was prosecuted on the Obscene Publications act here in the uk, which they won the case at Snaresbr suddenly ends up helming the biggest blockbuster of living memory, the film that is so big that the BBFC actually have to change their certification in order to allow younger people to see.

[Jack Howard]

One of my favorite fun facts.

[Mark Kermode]

Isn't that great?

[Jack Howard]

First 12 a spider man. So what I'm saying is though, that what Sam Raimi did is he became big blockbuster director who was still a good filmmaker. Like I think especially Spider Man 1 and Spider Man 2 are.

[Mark Kermode]

Spider Man 2 is a masterpiece in terms of the, the individual talent making a huge blockbuster behemoth, but making it a Sam Raimi movie. Yes, I thought that that's, that's the

[Jack Howard]

best of all the Doc Ock sequence. I mean, it's just a bit out of Evil Dead, but with more money. Yes, but there's so much in that film. I mean, I've not seen Spider man swinging scenes that are better, even if the visual effects now are a bit ropey. But what I'm saying is that Gore Verbinski, I think was a safe pair of hands to helm huge blockbuster movies. And I Think because he made Lone Ranger, that didn't make any money. And we. Because he made a cure for wellness. And no one saw that.

[Mark Kermode]

No one saw.

[Jack Howard]

He's now got no choice but to make good luck, have fun, don't die, and pose as if he's going. I really want to make these kind of like, cool, anarchic kind of indie movies when I think he'd be better served doing a Marvel movie. I think he'd be better served making an Avengers movie. And he'd be able to do it really well because he'd be making stuff mostly in a computer, in animation, and doing it in a really interesting, cool way. And I think that even if you look at the individual set pieces of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies that you don't like, even in the later ones, the third one hands him as operatic. Operatic score while two boats are swirling around what looks like a huge sinkhole. Amazing. Maybe in context, it's really silly, but amazing. And I think that if you let him be who he is, which is maybe corporate, big blockbuster director, he could probably do it really well.

[Mark Kermode]

Do you think that? Because obviously Lone Ranger is really the thing that blew a hole in the side of his career, isn't it?

[Jack Howard]

Yeah.

[Mark Kermode]

And Lone Ranger is one of the few examples I can think of in recent movie making history, comparatively recent movie making history, in which a really tanking movie has actually properly harmed somebody's career. Because loads of people make movies that don't take him and then they move on to the next thing. But it really did seem to do him serious damage.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah. I can't believe how long ago it was. I think it was like 2013. So, yeah, it feels like. I mean, obviously he's made movies from then to now, but that. But it doesn't feel like it.

[Mark Kermode]

And it was. It was huge. And it cost a lot of money. And, you know, and it was.

[Jack Howard]

And it was like John Carter times where, I mean, I think it was like 2009. So Disney were on a real bad run for a while where they were trying to make their new franchises work, and they weren't working.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah.

[Jack Howard]

And they were. Let's just buy Star Wars.

[Mark Kermode]

You see, I. I am fascinated by this, by your. Your suggestion. Okay. What he should be doing is just helming those things. And I agree with you. You. You. That is what he should be doing. What he shouldn't be doing is, you know, wearing a pair of jeans and a T shirt and going, how my kind of wild and crazy guy. He's made this amazing Time traveling movie, which is basically just ripping off all these other movies that I like. I mean, every single move, whether it's Terminator or whether they're all in there, and there isn't a single original idea in that film's head.

[Jack Howard]

Isn't it so clear that it was supposed to be a television show?

[Mark Kermode]

Yes, because it started off as a TV pilot, didn't it? Then they couldn't get it. They couldn't get so clear that every

[Jack Howard]

chapter is supposed to be its own episode, each character.

[Mark Kermode]

But also because, as I understand, the way it was done was it was written as a TV pilot. And then it didn't happen. Didn't happen. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. And finally it happened because whoever it was that was producing it at that point said, we need to do it now because if we wait another six months, this idea is going. Is going to have passed its sell by date. To which the answer is, is yet? No, that happened two years ago.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Kermode]

Because that whole. I remember when the Mission Impossible movie came in which the baddie is A.I. yeah, right. And I remember having conversation with Simon Mayer in which he said, this is it. We're going to get a welter of these now, aren't we? In which the baddie is AI and there was. There was indeed.

[Jack Howard]

Like it hadn't happened in 1969.

[Mark Kermode]

I know.

[Jack Howard]

2001 a space.

[Mark Kermode]

Obviously, now you're worried about that now.

[Jack Howard]

Sorry, I think 1960. 68. I think I misspoke.

[Mark Kermode]

68 is. 68 is 2001 Space Odyssey. Well done writing yourself. I love the fact that when Doug Trumbull made Silent Running, he said because Doug Trumbull had done special effects for Kubrick on 2001, although Kubrick is the person who ends up getting the Oscar for it, which is an absolute travesty. But Doug Trumbull says that the reason that he makes this incredibly sentimental science fiction film, Silent Running, which is very connected to Project Hail Mary, which we're going to talk about on our next podcast. I've got stuff that I want to talk to you about with that film. He said the reason he did it was Having worked on 2001 for several years, a film in which the most sympathetic character is a computer that attempts to kill everyone. He just wanted to make a movie with some nice drones in it. Bruce Dern being nice to plants.

[Jack Howard]

So in conclusion.

[Mark Kermode]

In conclusion, I think that Gore Verbinski is a corporate hack. I think that you think that Gore Verbinski is a good, good corporate hack.

[Jack Howard]

Yeah, I, I, I haven't, I have a lot of admiration for, for directors who can helm movies of a huge scale. Which is why I like, you know, when Chris McQuarrie talks about making the Mission Impossible movies and you know, when, you know, I like watching like Christopher Nolan talking about how he makes movies on that kind of scale. Because I think that making movies on that kind of scale is like, I think it's probably more difficult than I can even imagine. Like the, the, all the moving parts, just the logistics. So to be able to like do do that with craft and to, to make it coherent I think is something to be admired when it's done really, really well. Because there's a lot of big blockbuster movies, especially now, that I think are made by people who aren't ready to do it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yes. And I would draw that to a conclusion by quoting Terry Gilliam because so much of good luck, have fun, don't die does quote Terry Gilliam and specifically quote 12 monkeys. Terry Gilliam was always the person who could do the problem solving and make art at the same time. And 12 Monkeys is a perfect example of that. But I remember Terry Gilliam saying to me once, a film in production is like a ship on the brink of mutiny and your job as the captain of that ship is to bring it into port without loss of life or money. And if you can make art at the same time, well done. Well, there we go. I hope you enjoyed that in depth conversation about the career of Gore Verbinski

[Jack Howard]

all over the place.

[Mark Kermode]

If you enjoyed it, remember, if you're watching on YouTube, subscribe, you know, smash the like button, do all that stuff. He's got it. He's got it.

[Jack Howard]

He's got it.

[Mark Kermode]

Yeah. If you're listening on the podcast, you don't do already, subscribe. If you want to hear more conversation with me and Simon Mayo Kermoda. Mayo's take is available wherever you get your podcasts. And Jack, you and I are going to be back very short shortly to talk about.

[Jack Howard]

We're going to be talking about Project Hail Mary, the new sci fi epic starring Ryan Gosling, directed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller. That'll be out in a week or two, so subscribe. Look forward to that. We're going to be having a very in depth conversation about what it means. What does it mean?

[Mark Kermode]

The scouting reports in Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile. Get unlimited wireless for 25amonth forever. And keep your phone. It's a veteran move. Unlock the [e-mail] Unlock 25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Mobile Unlimited wireless plan. For offer details, visit boostmobile.com hello, this is Simon Mayo. And this is Mark kermode.

[Jack Howard]

He's the UK's best and most trusted film critic.

[Mark Kermode]

He's a best selling writer, broadcaster and national treasure.

[Jack Howard]

Far too kind. Kermode and Mayo's Take has all the reviews you need and star guests such

[Mark Kermode]

as Sir Ian McKellen. Nice to be with you.

[Jack Howard]

Emma Stone.

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[Mark Kermode]

to be a part of. Ewan McGregor.

[Jack Howard]

I'm very good.

[Mark Kermode]

You doing Kate Planchette? What was that word you used? Cattywampus.

[Jack Howard]

Kerma de Mayo's Take.

[Mark Kermode]

All the film you need. Available wherever you get your podcasts.