Bonus Episode | Libertarians Need to Have More Fun | Guest: Michael Malice

Summary

Kibbe on Liberty: Bonus Episode | Libertarians Need to Have More Fun with Michael Malice

Release Date: June 30, 2025

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In this captivating bonus episode of Kibbe on Liberty, host Matt Kibbe engages in a stimulating conversation with renowned author and commentator Michael Malice. The discussion delves deep into themes of libertarianism, anarchism, cultural perceptions, and the role of humor and community within the libertarian movement. Below is a comprehensive summary of their engaging dialogue, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps to highlight key moments.

1. Introduction and Light-hearted Banter

The episode kicks off with Matt Kibbe welcoming Michael Malice to the show. They immediately dive into a playful exchange about Malice's recent interactions with fellow libertarian Tom Woods.

• Kibbe (00:00): Introduces Michael Malice and hints at the episode's topics, including anarchism and Tom Woods.

• Malice (00:55): Defends his playful ribbing of Tom Woods, emphasizing the importance of having fun: “What's the point of having a stature if you're not going to enjoy yourself?” (00:55).

2. Perceptions of Libertarianism

Kibbe and Malice explore how libertarianism is perceived by the broader public and within political circles. They discuss stereotypes and misconceptions that libertarians often face.

• Malice (03:23): Shares a humorous anecdote about Meghan McCain's view on libertarians: “Republicans cosplaying as cool kids who are polyamorous and go to Burning Man. Unserious people in general.” (03:23).

• Kibbe (03:50): Agrees, noting that such stereotypes may contribute to the challenges libertarians face in gaining broader acceptance.

3. Challenges in Promoting Anarchism

The conversation shifts to anarchism, with Kibbe seeking Malice's insights on effectively communicating anarchist principles to skeptics.

• Kibbe (04:20): Requests Malice’s elevator pitch for anarchism, highlighting the difficulty in presenting it to those with opposing views.

• Malice (04:36): Explains the complexity of pitching anarchism, likening it to describing a "20ft tall" friend and emphasizing that there’s no simple elevator pitch: “There is no elevator pitch... It’s not possible to elevate or pitch to even someone as intellectually curious on his journey.” (04:36).

• Kibbe (05:26): Inquires about strategies to spark curiosity about anarchism.

• Malice (05:35): Discusses meaningful dialogues, citing his conversation with Marisa from PragerU, and stresses the importance of challenging existing narratives: “When you present anarchism, they compare anarchism to utopia... I can offer you an improvement. I’m not offering you perfection.” (05:35).

4. Government Power and Corruption

The duo delves into the inherent issues with government power and its tendency toward corruption.

• Malice (07:09): Critiques the notion of limited government enforcement, comparing it to the unrealistic expectations of sovereign citizens: “It’s like the first amendment explicitly says the right for people to peaceably assemble. No one even pretended to invoke that during COVID.” (07:09).

• Kibbe (07:51): Draws parallels to socialist beliefs, questioning the efficacy of relying on elections to curb governmental overreach: “What are you gonna do when AOC has that power?... We have to keep winning.” (07:51).

5. The Role of Humor and Community in Libertarianism

Malice emphasizes the significance of joy, humor, and community in making libertarianism appealing and relatable.

• Malice (12:39): Advocates for rewarding positive behavior and incorporating fun into the movement: “This is one of the reasons I do make fun of Tom Woods all the time... If it’s going to be a bunch of autistic people talking at you about the Fed, you’re leaving.” (12:39).

• Kibbe (13:14): Highlights the importance of humor in engaging a broader audience.

• Malice (13:30): Reinforces the need for a thriving, joyful community: “It's about relishing and reveling in having people around you that you like and respect.” (13:30).

6. Anecdotes on Ayn Rand’s Personality and Influence

The discussion takes a personal turn as Malice shares stories about Ayn Rand, offering insights into her complex personality and lasting impact on libertarian thought.

• Malice (16:42): Recounts a memorable incident where Ayn Rand rejected a surprise party, illustrating her stringent personality: “She does not approve of surprises. She was sitting there fuming...” (16:42).

• Kibbe (17:53): Comments on Rand’s demeanor, agreeing that she seemed grumpy despite her philosophical contributions.

7. Comparing Ayn Rand and Jordan Peterson

Kibbe and Malice compare Ayn Rand's Objectivism with Jordan Peterson's philosophy, exploring similarities and differences in their messages about personal responsibility and societal contribution.

• Kibbe (15:05): Draws parallels between Rand's emphasis on productive work and Peterson's notions of creating order in one's life: “It’s about there’s something beautiful to be made of your work and your life.” (16:12).

• Malice (16:15): Claims responsibility for getting Peterson to acknowledge a voluntary society as preferable: “And I’m the one who got Peterson to admit that a voluntary society is preferable.” (16:15).

8. The Essence of Libertarian Community

Wrapping up, Kibbe and Malice reflect on the importance of community and mutual respect in fostering a libertarian society.

• Kibbe (18:31): Emphasizes community as a core component of anarchism: “When I think of anarchism, I think of community.”

• Malice (18:46): Agrees, underscoring the vision of a cooperative and self-governed society: “Yes. So anarchy in our lifetime. We are living it right now.” (18:46).

Notable Quotes

• Michael Malice (00:55): “What’s the point of having a stature if you’re not going to enjoy yourself?”

• Michael Malice (03:23): “Republicans cosplaying as cool kids who are polyamorous and go to Burning Man. Unserious people in general.”

• Michael Malice (04:36): “There is no elevator pitch... It’s not possible to elevate or pitch to even someone as intellectually curious on his journey.”

• Michael Malice (07:09): “It’s like the first amendment explicitly says the right for people to peaceably assemble. No one even pretended to invoke that during COVID.”

• Michael Malice (12:39): “If it’s going to be a bunch of autistic people talking at you about the Fed, you’re leaving.”

• Michael Malice (15:30): “She said productive work is man’s highest moral purpose.”

• Michael Malice (16:15): “And I’m the one who got Peterson to admit that a voluntary society is preferable.”

Conclusion

This bonus episode of Kibbe on Liberty offers listeners a thought-provoking exploration of libertarianism and anarchism through the incisive lens of Michael Malice. From dissecting public perceptions and internal dynamics of the libertarian movement to celebrating the roles of humor and community, Kibbe and Malice provide valuable insights into fostering a vibrant, free-thinking society. Their dialogue underscores the necessity of enjoying the journey towards societal freedom while steadfastly challenging oppressive structures.

For those intrigued by the intersection of libertarian philosophy, cultural critique, and personal anecdotes, this episode serves as an enriching resource that both informs and entertains.

Transcript

[Kibbe]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. Michael Malice has stopped by to talk about anarchism, Ayn Rand, Katz, and why Tom woods is such a bad person. Check it out. Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty, Michael.

[Michael Malice]

Thanks.

[Kibbe]

Thanks for dropping by.

[Michael Malice]

My pleasure.

[Kibbe]

So you just got off stage, and apparently you were like a mean girl to our friend Tom Woods. Why would you do such a thing?

[Michael Malice]

Don't set me up for punchlines. It's always fun taking a shot at Tom. I. And Tom will back me up. When I first met Tom, he was very much more uptight than he is now. And I didn't understand that because I thought he was such a impressive person in so many categories that I'm like, you take yourself way too seriously, not because you don't deserve respect, but you're not allowing yourself to have the fun that you've earned by all your accomplishments. And if you look at Trump, who is certainly in many ways less respectable person than Tom, he's having fun often. And what's the point of having a stature if you're not going to enjoy yourself?

[Kibbe]

Even, like, what's the point of being a libertarian if you can't sort of step back and have a little joy in your life? Because we're. We're not, like, winning in any specific way that we could be proud of.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. But I think people are often winning in their personal lives.

[Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Someone just tweeted at me, the most important vote is how you live your life. And I thought that was so profound. And I really love that quote.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. And you live that like you. You love to have fun.

[Michael Malice]

I do. I do. Yes.

[Kibbe]

And not just at Tom's expense.

[Michael Malice]

No, just at Tom's expense. That's my only. That's. I'm an hedonic, and the only way I can have fun is. Is by hurting Tom Woods.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. Well, I guess we can get on board with that strategy. I just watched your conversation on Brett's podcast.

[Michael Malice]

Bret Weinstein.

[Kibbe]

Yeah, Bret Weinstein's podcast. And we just had a conversation, and he's having his libertarian moment. As a guy.

[Michael Malice]

He's becoming an incel. He got his virginity back. That's amazing. I thought he was married. All right. I guess you could be an incel. Be married.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. Can you go backwards? I think. And as a guy that used to be quite critical of libertarians.

[Michael Malice]

He was.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. So he says.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, interesting.

[Kibbe]

I don't even remember that. But, like, as a young progressive, I'm sure he thought that we were ridiculous because we had all.

[Michael Malice]

Can I interrupt you?

[Kibbe]

Sure.

[Michael Malice]

Something germane. I was at my friend's birthday party last week, and it was all libertarians and ancaps. And we were trying to figure out, much like what Brett would have said, what do normal people think of libertarianism? And my life is such that all my friends are such freaks and outliers that when I need to know what a normal person thinks, do you know who I ask?

[Kibbe]

No.

[Michael Malice]

Meghan McCain.

[Kibbe]

Okay.

[Michael Malice]

So I texted Meghan McCain, and I will read you what Meghan McCain said about libertarians. And I said, hold on. Let me get the exact quote from every libertarian's favorite View member. And she said, where's Meghan? Hold on. Here she goes. Republicans cosplaying as cool kids who are polyamorous and go to Burning Man. Unserious people in general. And everyone at the party is like, yeah, yeah, she's right. So I do think Brett probably had that perception.

[Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah. And I think we earned that. And he's. He's trying to figure out exactly what a libertarian is, and he's. He's struggling with this idea that that government power is fundamentally evil. He's there.

[Michael Malice]

He's there. He said that explicitly on the show. He said, every government on earth is malignant.

[Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Which at a certain point, it's like, how many data points do you need?

[Kibbe]

But he's not quite there in terms of a civil society based on cooperation.

[Michael Malice]

Correct.

[Kibbe]

And so I thought what we'd do. I know you got to catch the airport, but I really wanted to talk to you, like, give me your elevator pitch for anarchism. For people that are like, Brett, they're skeptical. Like, oh, we need. We need certain guardrails. We need certain rules. We need to enforce laws. We need to stop crime.

[Michael Malice]

Hold on, let's. Okay, let me be a little difficult, because it's appropriate here. There is no elevator pitch. Because if I came. I mentioned this in, I think, the anarchist handbook. If I came to you and I said, I have a friend who's really tall. How tall? Six foot ten. Okay. That's very tall. But you wouldn't bat an eye. But if I told you I had a friend who's 20ft tall or apricot feet tall, something's not adding up. Is a friend a giraffe? Am I talking about a cartoon character? Magic friend. Right. So when you say things that are too outside someone's context, there's no bridge from where they are to where you are. So it's not possible to elevate or pitch to even someone as intellectually curious on his journey. As Brett Anything close to anarchism, it's going to be a very step by step process.

[Kibbe]

Okay, so how would you get people curious enough to ask more questions about anarchism?

[Michael Malice]

I happened on Prageru. I was talking to Marissa, who was the president of Prager U, and it was really great because there's certain questions that if you ask conservatives, they instantly start talking like, Officer Kamala Harris. It's just word salad. And it happened on the show. It was great. I go, she was talking about how we need government to keep us all safe. And I said, can you give me an example of when government has done so? And she goes, well, you know, the government we have is corrupt. And the founding fathers and no, I don't think Trump's the messiah, but I think a lot of ways changing is good. Well, I go, I asked you for an example and you gave me a Babel like a speech of no relevance. So I think things like that, when you say, and the other thing that's important for people to do is when you present anarchism, they compare anarchism to utopia and compare what we have now to reality. So if you say, when has there been a time when powerful people haven't exploited the law to further their interests? They don't have an answer. But we talk about under anarchism, these people would have less power and they'd be fail safe. What you, you're saying no corruption would exist? You're comparing me to utopia there. So if you're satisfied with it now, all I'm saying is I can offer you an improvement. I'm not offering you perfection. So that, I think, is a big hurdle. Because when you're offering someone a radical alternative, their comparison is not to what we have now, but to some heavenly state of being.

[Kibbe]

The constitutional conservatives that believe that there can be good government, limited enforcing just the laws that we need them to.

[Michael Malice]

Enforce, these are the equivalent of sovereign citizens who think if I just tell the cops the right thing, they're like, oh, you got me. Here's your gun, here's your wallet. I'm gonna drive you home. It's not a thing they think if we just word it the right way. But it's like the first amendment explicitly says the right for people to peaceably assemble. No one even pretended to invoke that during COVID A funeral is the most peaceable assembly there can be. If I say even, let's take an irradical case, put me in a hazmat suit, why can't we all have hazmat suits and go to a funeral? No. That is blatantly unconstitutional. But no one even cared. No one pretended to care. Not even Rand Paul.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. There was no protection, that the judicial branch didn't step in until after the rights had been taken.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Kibbe]

They remind me a little bit of the socialists who keep saying, well, that didn't work, but we just got to try harder to elect better people and if they're good enough. And right now, Trump is expanding the surveillance state, and you make the argument, what are you gonna do when AOC has that power? They're like, I don't know, we'll just elect better guys.

[Michael Malice]

They say, we'll just have to keep winning.

[Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Okay. Why haven't you done that before?

[Kibbe]

Yeah. I have this theory that someday a Democrat might win again. I'm out there. I'm out there.

[Michael Malice]

No, no, but you joke, but I was on Gutfeld a couple months ago, and they were basically saying, the Democratic Party will never win again. And it's just like they have, like, 215 seats in the House and 47 senators. That's a really good starting position. What are you talking about?

[Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

It's crazy.

[Kibbe]

So the way I. So I don't even like using the A word because I think for a lot of people, it means violence and chaos and that. And I always lay it out, as, you know, government is violence. And if you don't believe me, think about war. Think about what happens if you don't pay your taxes. The opposite of violence is cooperation.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Kibbe]

And we want to maximize the voluntary relationships and society so that people can cooperate, do good things.

[Michael Malice]

I don't know, man. I think we could use a little more violence nowadays in certain contexts.

[Kibbe]

Explain.

[Michael Malice]

I can't, because it'll get shut down. But, yeah, I think there's a time and a place that the founding fathers. This country was founded on violence, and I think, at a certain point.

[Kibbe]

Against tyranny.

[Michael Malice]

Sure. Right. But at a certain point when free speech is stifled, free violence is the only alternative.

[Kibbe]

Okay.

[Michael Malice]

Particularly Britain.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. So. So guys like Brett, who. And obviously the cancellation at Evergreen was. Was part of his waking up, but I think. I think lockdowns and Covid. Authoritarianism and also being called, like, a murderer. Yeah. And a racist.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. That's really going to do a number on you.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. There's a lot of people like this. I don't know if you've watched, like, Dave Smith's conversations with Nicole Shanahan. She's now calling herself a Libertarian.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, but so did Bill Maher.

[Kibbe]

Did he? Well, back in the day, I think he still does. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

So I never use the word libertarian. I reject it whenever I can.

[Kibbe]

But do you think people that are flirting with that word are low hanging frank to engage on the more fundamental philosophy?

[Michael Malice]

What do you mean?

[Kibbe]

Like Nicole, I call her Liberty Curious or Elon Liberty Curious.

[Michael Malice]

I don't think Elon's Liberty Curious at all. I am very concerned because you and I were both no spring chickens and we remember very vividly that the faces of libertarianism in the popular consciousness were Penn Jillette and Drew Carey.

[Kibbe]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

And now Penn Jillette is taking photos with selfies with Gavin Newsom and Drew Carey has full blown tds. So another reason why I don't ever identify as libertarian is it attracts people who I do not find to be reliable philosophically. I think Rand had this point, right, that when you have this kind of theory of ideas, what happens when the car hits the wall? And very quickly those ideas for many of these people fall away and they rely on the state and the hammer of the state.

[Unknown]

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[Kibbe]

So very much inspired by how Ayn Rand spread ideas. I mean, she went to Hollywood, she didn't go to Washington.

[Michael Malice]

That's right. Well, Alan Greenspan went to Washington.

[Kibbe]

Yeah, but she wanted to tell stories.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Kibbe]

That's what we're trying to do.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Kibbe]

To the extent that you have a strategy that sort of guides your business and your voice, what is it?

[Michael Malice]

Reward good behavior, punish bad behavior, have a cost for having bad ideas. People don't have consequences. And make sure to be having fun because one of the big reasons Jon Stewart was huge, which majorly led to Obama and the Democrats having super majorities in both houses, which they didn't have in like 30 years, was because he was having all the fun and the Bush administration, which I'm not a fan of, were miserable. So if I'm a normie who is not politically astute or interested, I'm going to go the the of part party. And why wouldn't I?

[Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

So I think it's very important to have as much fun and joy as possible. This is one of the reasons I do make fun of Tom woods all the time. Because if it's going to be a bunch of autistic people talking at you about the Fed, you're leaving.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. So comedy.

[Michael Malice]

Humor. Yeah.

[Kibbe]

Or just.

[Michael Malice]

It doesn't have to be comedy, but it has to be. I'm having a good thriving. Rand talked about this a lot. It's just like your life is a blessing. What are you gonna do with it?

[Kibbe]

It's funny that she had that view of life. Cause she didn't seem to have that much fun. She seemed pissed off.

[Michael Malice]

When she died. I forgot who it was. Said the anger's gone and there was she. I think she dug herself a hole in many ways.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. Although the one thing I agree with her on and you probably. Probably fundamentally.

[Michael Malice]

The one thing.

[Kibbe]

The one thing.

[Michael Malice]

There's only one thing you agree with her on.

[Kibbe]

Cats are libertarians.

[Michael Malice]

What does that even mean?

[Kibbe]

She had, she wrote this very.

[Michael Malice]

I know, I know. Cat fantasy magazine. You know, she didn't have her cats fixed so that the male cats were spraying all over her house.

[Kibbe]

Right, Right. But she, she found joy in having a pet.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Kibbe]

Not a dog, a cat.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. But you control every aspect of that cat's life and it thinks so. Cats are blue pilled people because they think they're free. But every single option they have has been preselected by the elite.

[Kibbe]

So you're not buying my cats are libertarians? No, no.

[Michael Malice]

Unless on the fact that they have no political power and are cute at best, but more often difficult to be around.

[Kibbe]

So what do you think about. So Ayn Rand. And unlike Jordan Peterson, I get this sort of self help based on a sense of life and that you control your own destiny and you shouldn't fear waking up in the morning.

[Michael Malice]

That's right.

[Kibbe]

You have to make your bed that it's a beautiful world if you go out there and own it.

[Michael Malice]

Why was that? Not like Jordan Peterson?

[Kibbe]

Because his punchline is if you don't get out of bed and. And you don't work hard, life is hell, life is miserable, life is suffering.

[Michael Malice]

She would agree with that.

[Kibbe]

Do you think so?

[Michael Malice]

Yes. She said productive work is man's highest moral purpose. So if you're just going to be laying in bed all day. This is not the Randian hero.

[Kibbe]

Right. But in Peterson's telling of the story, it's an abyss. And the best you can do. Work your way through it.

[Michael Malice]

Work your way out of it.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. I don't think he says you can get out of it, though.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, he does. That's why you make the bed. You're starting to create some semblance of order in your life and having purpose.

[Kibbe]

So you think the Peterson framing is similar to sort of an objectivist framing that's like there's something beautiful to be made of your work and your life.

[Michael Malice]

I would bet money he said that. Close to verbatim.

[Kibbe]

Okay.

[Michael Malice]

And I'm the one who got Peterson to admit that a voluntary society is preferable.

[Kibbe]

I didn't know that that was me. Congratulations.

[Michael Malice]

It was great. And then I said, ha, take that, Emma Goldman.

[Kibbe]

But so back to the joy thing, like, and I'll let you go because I know you need to get to the airport. But the problem with Rand is that she was kind of a grumpy person. Person.

[Michael Malice]

Do you want to hear a story about this?

[Kibbe]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

I collect a lot of cool stuff. And in 1957, after Atlas Shard was published, all her friends at a Random House publisher, people work there, got together with her husband, Frank o' Connor, and they like, let's throw her a surprise party to commemorate this great achievement. She's worked at the book for over a decade, so I think it was at the Ritz Carlton, some fancy hotel. Frank tells her we're going to have a nice intimate dinner. She's like, great. She dresses up, opens the door. Surprise. What does Ayn Rand say? I do not approve of surprises. And she's sitting there fuming while all her loved ones are in eggshells. And per Barbara Brandon, her biographer and one time heir, the only thing that slightly caught the tension was that Random House had cigarette boxes made that said, who is John Galt they know at Random House with custom made cigarettes with the sign the dollar on the wrapping paper and handed those out. And I just recently got a box of those cigarettes.

[Kibbe]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Malice]

And they're framed in my house.

[Kibbe]

So that diffused her anger a little. A little.

[Michael Malice]

A little. Did not diffuse it. Mitigated it.

[Kibbe]

That's funny.

[Michael Malice]

That speaks to her personality and that's unfortunate.

[Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

And I bet you she was a little bit on the spectrum. And I'm not kidding.

[Kibbe]

Yeah, well, I'm sure. But you know, part of my mission in life, I still talk about Ayn Rand. And I was turned on to her ideas as a 13 year old reading the liner notes on a Rush album.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Kibbe]

And then I found Anthem.

[Michael Malice]

Yep, same here.

[Kibbe]

And then I got into that stuff and, you know, the caricature of Rand is that it's all rugged individualism. Like, you know, fuck society.

[Michael Malice]

It's not that way at all.

[Kibbe]

No. It's about people, like, putting their necks on the line to build a better society.

[Michael Malice]

But it's also about relishing and reveling in having people around you that you like and respect.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. Yeah. So that. That community is, you know, taking it full circle to. When I think of anarchism, I think of community.

[Michael Malice]

Yes. I think that's fair.

[Kibbe]

Obviously. Gulch. Gulch. That's sort of the vision, right?

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Kibbe]

At least an ideal type of the vision.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Kibbe]

So anarchy in our lifetime.

[Michael Malice]

We're living it right now. We are in an anarchist relationship just.

[Kibbe]

By living free, but just neither of.

[Michael Malice]

Us has authority over the other.

[Kibbe]

Yeah. All right. Yeah, cool.

[Unknown]

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