Don't Fall for Hantavirus Fearmongering | Guest: Dr. Mary Talley Bowden | Ep 387

Summary

Kibbe on Liberty Ep 387 – Don’t Fall for Hantavirus Fearmongering
Guest: Dr. Mary Talley Bowden | Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features libertarian thinker and host Matt Kibbe in conversation with Dr. Mary Talley Bowden, a Houston-based ENT, sleep medicine specialist, and author of the new book Dangerous: The Virus, the Treatment, and the Lies. Together, they discuss Dr. Bowden’s frontline experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic, the systematic failures and perverse incentives of the “medical-industrial complex”, institutional censorship, the fight for medical freedom, vaccine mandates, and the current wave of media hysteria around hantavirus. The conversation also dives into the need for independent, patient-focused healthcare and practical steps listeners can take to reclaim autonomy in medicine.

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Key Topics & Insights

Dr. Bowden’s Background and Independent Practice

• Direct Specialty Care Model:

  • Dr. Bowden trained at Stanford, runs her own ENT and sleep clinic in Houston, and deliberately opted out of insurance, government, and hospital contracts. Her practice is entirely direct pay—a decision made for autonomy and driven by the corruption and constraints she saw in the third-party payment system.

    “I want a quality encounter with my patients. It’s not rushed, and it’s very transparent.” [04:49]

• Patient-Doctor Relationship:

  • Modern medicine’s reverence for credentialed experts has discouraged patients from asking questions and participating in their own care. Dr. Bowden sees patient empowerment through technology and research as crucial, though it requires humility from providers.

    “I’m surprised if I see a patient and they haven’t done research beforehand. I’m actually surprised now.” [08:14]

COVID-19: Censorship, Treatments & Systemic Corruption

• Early Response and Independence:

  • When the pandemic began, Bowden leveraged her practice’s flexibility and new COVID testing to serve patients effectively—only to find herself in opposition to most of the healthcare system, which largely refused early treatment and deferred to hospital care.

    “Primary care doctors just closed their doors and, like firefighters running from the fire, wouldn’t treat the patients… That didn’t sit well with me.” [10:09]

• Treatment Evolution and Suppression:

  • Tried various treatments: breathing therapies, antibiotics, steroids, hydroxychloroquine (briefly, until blocked by Texas State Board of Pharmacy), monoclonal antibodies (until government restricted access) and ultimately ivermectin.

    “I was nervous about [ivermectin]... once I was assured it was safe, I started using it because I had nothing else… and it turned out worked great.” [12:18]

• Hospital Pushback & Media Demonization:

  • After posting patient testimonials against vaccine mandates on social media, Bowden’s privileges at Houston Methodist Hospital were suspended with little warning, sparking national media coverage and significant reputational and legal troubles.

    “Next thing I know, they’ve suspended my privileges… I found out through a reporter.” [13:15]

• Financial and Political Incentives:

  • Bowden suspects perverse financial incentives drove the aggressive pushback against dissent:

    “I sued [Houston Methodist] to get their financial information because I suspected—who’s paying for this? What’s going on?… It’s just untraceable.” [16:47]

  • Cites COVID 19 Community Corps and federal grant money for narrative enforcement.

Monoclonal Antibodies & Big Pharma

• Effectiveness and Sudden Shortage:

  • Early success with monoclonal antibodies; supply later nationalized and rationed, coinciding with vaccine mandate rollouts. Bowden attributes this move to pressure individuals toward vaccination and to politically/financially motivated decision-making.

    “They took them away during the third and largest peak of the pandemic… they took away the most effective treatment we had.” [21:32]

• Ivermectin: Safety and Stigma:

  • Bowden investigates and confirms its safety profile:

    “It’s won a Nobel Prize… the LD50… was hundreds of times higher than what we were prescribing. I could not find a single study [of dangerous overdose].” [23:59-24:51]

  • Despite five states passing laws to make access easier, pharmacists remain hesitant due to systemic pressures.

    “We’re having a hard time finding pharmacists willing to do that despite the new laws.” [25:27]

Hantavirus Fearmongering

• Media Hysteria Pattern:

  • Bowden draws parallels between current media panic over hantavirus and previous cycles with COVID, monkeypox, and bird flu. She doubts it will take hold, given declining public interest.

    “I went on Google Trends… the general public, they were interested in hantavirus, but it’s just dropped.” [34:25-34:49]

• Ivermectin and Hantavirus?

  • No approved studies, but based on mechanisms of action, Bowden would include it in her own treatment if ill with hantavirus.

Vaccine Injury, Mandates, and Regulatory Capture

• Documenting Vaccine Injury:

  • Bowden reports that 7% of her new patients during COVID vaccine rollout sought care explicitly for vaccine injury—rashes, neurological symptoms, heart problems, POTS, brain fog, and potentially increased cancer rates.

    “These are not maybes… There’s no other explanation.” [29:09]

• Systemic Regulatory Failures:

  • Over 4,500 peer-reviewed studies, insurance/disability data, and regulatory failures are cited. Bowden and Kibbe agree that vaccine risks have been minimized or buried for political and financial reasons, and that regulatory ‘capture’ is endemic.

    “We have more than enough evidence to pull these shots. Any other medication would have been pulled a long time ago based on the data.” [32:06]

• Practicing Under Siege:

  • Bowden details ongoing legal and professional battles over her stance and advocacy—lawsuits, targeted board complaints, and free speech challenges.

    “I’m still fighting the medical board. …They decided they’re going to go after me for interest… I’m still fighting that.” [37:35]

Solutions & Calls to Action

• Opt Out, Build Alternatives:

  • Bowden prescribes individual and collective withdrawal from the corrupted healthcare system: seek independent doctors, utilize direct care networks, and vote/push for state-level reforms, including bans on mRNA technology where appropriate.

    “The most expeditious way is to opt out… Find a doctor who’s independent.” [40:50]

• Advocacy and Education:

  • She encourages being as vocal as possible to build a protective constituency and erode official narratives through patient/community education.

    “Be as loud as possible because I do think that’s protective… the best thing we can do is educating other people.” [42:32]

• Personal Responsibility & Prevention:

  • Emphasizes healthy lifestyle choices as foundational for health and independence from the mainstream medical system.

• The Right to Try—and the Right Not To:

  • Kibbe and Bowden discuss the paradox of supporting patient autonomy both for access to experimental therapies and for refusing mandated interventions.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “I want a quality encounter with my patients. It’s not rushed, and it’s very transparent.” – Dr. Bowden [04:49]
• “Treating medicine and doctors as if they were miracle workers instead of technicians, the same way you would treat your mechanic… has been part of the institutional corruption in medicine.” – Kibbe [07:43]
• “There’s no other explanation [for these injuries].” – Dr. Bowden [29:09]
• “We have more than enough evidence to pull these shots. Any other medication would have been pulled a long time ago based on the data.” – Dr. Bowden [32:06]
• “The most expeditious way is to opt out… Find a doctor who’s independent.” – Dr. Bowden [40:50]
• “Be as loud as possible because I do think that’s protective.” – Dr. Bowden [42:32]

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:27 – Dr. Bowden introduces her book and pandemic background
• 02:37-07:14 – Credentials, practice model, criticism of traditional care
• 09:45-14:09 – Firsthand experience treating COVID, hospital backlash, media scandal
• 16:40 – Legal fight for hospital financial transparency
• 20:11-21:46 – Government control of monoclonal antibodies, therapy withdrawal
• 23:59-24:51 – Deep dive: Ivermectin’s safety
• 29:09-33:35 – Vaccine injury, regulatory inaction, and systemic cover-up
• 34:25 – Hantavirus media panic compared to COVID and other “theatrics”
• 37:35-40:26 – Ongoing persecution and legal battles against Bowden
• 40:50-42:32 – Personal and strategic solutions for system reform
• 44:36 – Favorite story from Bowden’s book: resistance to new drugs in practice
• 46:29 – Initial red flags & skepticism of the COVID vaccine approval process
• 48:49 – “Right to try” paradox and medical ethics
• 51:21 – Pediatricians and the ethics/legality of care refusal

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Further Resources & Organizations

• Dr. Bowden’s Book:
  • Dangerous: The Virus, the Treatment, and the Lies (Post Hill Press) [Available for order at Amazon and publisher]
• Substack & Podcast:
  • “Dangerous Misinformation”
• Independent Medical Alliance:
  • Senior Fellow; helps patients find independent doctors
• Vaccine Safety Research Foundation:
  • Campaign to repeal the 1986 Vaccine Injury Act (with support from Paul Gosar and Rand Paul)

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For Listeners

Kibbe and Dr. Bowden urge listeners to:

• Re-examine narratives from major media and health authorities.
• Take charge of their health with information, skepticism, and healthy behaviors.
• Support and seek out independent medical professionals.
• Advocate for policy changes at the state and federal levels.
• Stay informed and vocal on issues of medical autonomy and free speech.

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This summary preserves the open, critical, and practical tone of the episode and highlights the core insights and actionables for listeners seeking liberty in healthcare decisions.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Keeping on Liberty. I'm talking with Dr. Mary Talley Bowden about her new book Dangerous the Virus, the Treatments and the Lies about her personal fight to treat patients and fight against vaccine mandates and why we need to get the medical industrial complex out of the way between the relationship between a doctor and a patient. Check it out. Welcome to kibbe on liberty. Hey Mary, how are you?

[B]

I'm great. How are you?

[A]

I'm good. You have a new book coming out and I definitely want to talk about that because I feel like we're living in Groundhog Day where everything they did to us during COVID is kind of a scripted theater piece and they're going to try to do it to us again and again and again. We have to talk about hantavirus, but why don't we start with. Well, first of all, tell me what your book is called and when is it coming out.

[B]

It comes out in one week. It comes out May 19th. It's called Dangerous the Virus, the Treatment and the Lies. And it's basically a tell all, a memoir of what I went through during the pandemic and hopefully a warning call to what could come next because as you said this, they're really trying to drum up what we went through during the COVID pandemic. I don't think they'll succeed though because they tried this with monkeypox and they tried it with bird flu and that, you know, both of those went away. And I am certain this will go away as well.

[A]

Yeah. But so let's, and let's, I want to get into all of that. But before we talk about your personal history, which my sense is that the book is really about that like the hero's journey you went through trying to deal with the medical industrial complex and the one size fits all, top down command and control system. But talk a little bit about your credentials and your practice and what you do.

[B]

Yeah, so I'm an ear, nose and throat and sleep medicine specialist. I'm in Houston, Texas. I'm a solo physician, trained at Stanford. I finished my training in 2003 after a residency. I joined a private practice and worked for seven or eight years. I started having children and I ended up having four boys in five years. And so I took some time off from work and I wasn't even sure I was going to go back. But then I finally decided I would return to medicine, but I wanted to do it on my own terms. So I decided, decided to do a different practice model where I don't contract with insurance companies. I don't contract with the government, I don't contract with hospitals. And basically, it's called direct specialty care. It's basically pay for the service when you come. And that practice, I started it six months before the pandemic. But because I. Because my practice was modeled the way it was, it really allowed me to treat patients the way I saw fit during the pandemic. So that independence was crucial when the pandemic hit.

[A]

As someone that's worked a lot on healthcare reform over the years, this idea of being independent of all of the bigs, like big hospitals, big pharma, big insurance, and moving towards a direct concierge model where you can. You can actually work directly with your patients to solve problems. It sounds radical, but to me, after all of these years of hoping that we would fix the system from the top down, it strikes me as the only path forward is to give patients a choice after they deal with the hospital system and realize that that's not a solution.

[B]

Yeah, when I started it, I weighed this opinion out. Should I do this to a forum, an ears and throat forum? And everybody thought was out of my mind for trying to do it without taking insurance. But, yeah, I was a solo physician. Solo physicians have no leveraging power with insurance companies, which means you just gotta crank out the volume to keep afloat. And I didn't want to do that. So I approached it with, yeah, I didn't need the money because, you know, my husband was providing. I just wanted to be a happy doctor. And so I took the risk. And I actually probably would make more money if I took insurance at this point, but I don't care. Like, I just want. I want a quality encounter with my patients. It's not rushed, and it's very transparent because in the insurance model, it just used to drive me crazy. You know, as an ear, nose, and throat doctor, we do this simple exam in the. In the office where we do an endoscopic view of the nose, and it takes an extra 10 minutes. You have to numb up the patient. You have to use a piece of equipment that your primary care doctor doesn't have. And so you do charge extra for it to the insurance companies. But half the time, the patient would get some outrageous bill in the mail because we charged the insurance company for this and they wouldn't pay for it. It's really bread and butter part of the ear, nose, and throat exam. It's hard to justify going to an ENT doctor without doing this exam in a lot of instances. So that just used to drive Me crazy. And now it's just if I need to do the exam, I do the exam. It's part of the visit. It's no extra charge, but it's just a lot easier. And I just like that. Transparency.

[A]

Yeah. The third party payment system is kind of a fundamental corruption of medical markets because insurance is playing games and then you have government reimbursements and, and if you're outside the system, you just get completely clobbered. And again, what you're doing is kind of the only way out of that, as far as I can tell.

[B]

Right. And for the people watching, there's a network of physicians that is growing in popularity and availability called direct primary care. And I'm not DPC or direct primary care, but it's basically like affordable concierge care. And the feature fees are generally the same that you might pay if you joined a gym, but you get much more access to your doctor and you get more time with your doctor. So I think that's the way to go if you're looking to do something outside of the traditional model.

[A]

Yeah. And it also demystifies medicine and doctors in a way that I think is fundamentally important. And I've seen you talk about this before, that your patients, because of technology and AI and decentralization of knowledge, are more educated. But I know Dr. Marty McCary used to talk about this. I don't know if he does anymore, he's got his hands full right now. But he used to talk about the sort of treating medicine and doctors as if they were miracle workers instead of technicians, the same way you would treat your mechanic. And I think that in and of itself, not being willing to ask doctors questions, not questioning their decisions, has been part of the institutional corruption in medicine. Do you agree with that or am I going too far?

[B]

No, definitely. I mean, 20 years ago patients didn't have access to the information before the Internet. I mean, you'd have to have a textbook to really know anything about medicine. And that has changed dramatically. I mean, I assume all. I'm surprised if I see a patient and they haven't done research beforehand. I'm actually surprised now. But it's got. It takes humility on part of the doctor to realize that they are not in control as much as they used to be. And that's part of the problem.

[A]

And all of this leads up to, I think, a deconstructing of what has to be the most catastrophic failure of top down medicine, the pandemic industrial complex. I don't even know what to call it because it was this big blob of sort of zombie like behavior that imposed a one size fits all solution combination of lockdowns and vaccines. And all of that was wrong. And it led to such human loss. And you're in the front lines and I don't even think, as I've heard you tell your story before, you weren't even thinking about this machine before you ran into it headlong. But let's get into that story. How did you get in so much trouble with, with the medical industrial complex?

[B]

Yeah, I kind of stumbled into the whole thing inadvertently. I remember when the pandemic came out thinking, oh, that's not going to affect me. I'm the small, quiet practice solo physician. It's pretty quiet. And I thought, you know, when you see things in the news, you think, oh, this just won't affect me. But what happened was I was using a lab called Microgen DX for my patients with chronic sinusitis. And they had a PCR test to check for bacterial and fungal infections of the sinuses. And they came out with a PCR saliva test for Covid, which was great because it was contact free. People didn't have to have stuff jammed up their nose. And we were able to get the results back the next day, which put us on the map because early on LabCorp was the only lab in town doing testing and it was taking two weeks to get the results back. And people were quarantined, forced to quarantine until they got their results back. So because we had this rapid turnaround saliva test, people started just flocking to us. And initially I didn't treat people. I would give them the results and tell them to go see their primary care doctor. But that as we saw, the primary care doctors just closed their doors and like firefighters running from the fire, they wouldn't treat the patients and they would tell them to wait until you can't breathe and go to the hospital. And, and that didn't sit well with me. So initially I used common sense, I used breathing treatments, I treated for secondary infection with antibiotics, I used steroids, I did try hydroxychloroquine early on and the Texas State Board of Pharmacy shut us down. They prohibited us from prescribing it for a time being. And then monoclonal antibodies came out and those worked really well. And initially I could get as many doses as I wanted to and things were great. And then the government took away monoclonal antibodies and so I started using Ivermectin and I was, I remember I was Nervous about it because the monoclonal antibodies worked so well, and ivermectin was already getting sort of a bad stigma to it. And so I. Yeah, I was skeptical about it, but I really dug into the safety data, and once I was assured it was safe, then I started using it because I had nothing else to use after they took away the monoclonal antibodies and the ivermectin turned out worked great. So, I mean, all in all, I ended up treating over 6,000 COVID patients during the pandemic. I mean, I've never. Never treated anything. Any disease that much in my career. I had privileges at Houston Methodist Hospital, and they were the first in the country to mandate the shots. They did this on April 1, 2021, and that was actually five months before Biden. They basically paved the way for the rest of the country. And I was actually working with them. I had a good relationship. We were collaborating on research. And. But when I started, you know, because we were doing testing, I saw that the shots weren't working. And so I reached out to them and I said, hey, I'm seeing all these breakthrough cases. What's. What's the deal? Are y' all seeing that? And I got gaslit. They said, well, we think it just lowers the severity. And then they went quiet on me. I had patients coming to me very distraught about the mandates. And so I just started speaking out on social media. And at the time, I really. I had zero following. I mean, I'd get, like, one. Like, maybe if I posted something. And I. On one day, though, I posted the same thing 25 times. I just said, vaccine mandates are wrong. And then I include a patient testimonial. And that caught their attention. And the next thing I know, they've suspended. Suspended my privileges for spreading dangerous misinformation. And I found out through a reporter at the Houston Chronicle. So I got a text message telling me, basically asking me to confirm, is it true that Methodist suspended your privileges? And I just did a double take. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. Then I go on the Internet, and they're tweeting about it. And next thing I know, I've got CNN and NBC and Washington Post all going crazy on me. And so that's really what started it all. Just basically saying, vaccine mandates are wrong. On Twitter.

[A]

There's no shortage of hot takes out there. What's actually rare is rigorous thinking, People who follow the data wherever it leads, regardless of which side it makes uncomfortable. That's exactly what Anthony Davies and James Harrigan do on the Words and Numbers podcast. And Free the People is proud to announce their launch on our channels. New episodes will drop every Thursday. Check freethepeople.org on social media re the people or find Words and Numbers anywhere you listen to podcasts. Go give your brain something it actually wants. Did you end up. Did you ever discover that you were suppressed in the Twitter files the way that someone like Jay Bhattacharya was for expressing those opinions? Or did that not overlap at the same time?

[B]

I, you know, it would not surprise me if I was. I was kicked off of x for five months and that was in 2022. I actually had my account restored on Christmas morning, 2022, after a five month ban. So I don't know, I haven't. No one's come to me saying your name was in there, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[A]

Well, I guess a ban is a pretty straightforward form of censorship in that sense. So it's fascinating to think about this because the overreaction by the hospital that you're associated with and how that magically became a story with you being demonized in corporate media, it makes me a little bit suspicious. And I don't know if you've dug into this at all, but there's all. As we learn during COVID and lockdowns and vaccine mandates, there's all sorts of perverse financial incentives for hospitals and doctors and certainly pharmaceutical companies to discredit anything. That's not the profitable thing. And if you can, it's a great business model to get the federal government to mandate that you have to use their product. How much of this was perverse financial incentives, the war against you, and how much of it was just sort of sclerotic? We just follow the rules and do what we're told. That happens in medicine as well.

[B]

Yeah. The first thing I did after they came after me, I resigned and I held a press conference and I hired a lawyer and I sued them to try to get their financial information because I suspected, yeah, who's paying for this? What's going on? And unfortunately, I lost that legal battle. They're a nonprofit. They're supposedly required to disclose financial information upon request, but they found a way around that and they have something crazy like 22 different eins. So they have all these different entities that they're hiding their money in. So it would. It just, it's just untraceable. Right. So, yeah, that I strongly suspect that there's financial incentives. You know, Biden doled out $11.5 billion to different social media influencers and church groups and sports groups. This is called the COVID 19 Community Corps. And it was actually launched the exact same day that Houston Methodists declared they were mandating the shot. Coincidence, right? I mean, it had to be hand in hand. And I also think that Methodist was chosen. I think they purposely started mandates in Texas because they knew if they could get away with mandates in Texas, they could get away with them anywhere. And sure enough, we complied. We have a governor who is very tied in with the medical complex. He's in a wheelchair. And people who have chronic severe illnesses are often very tied into the system. Very loyal. So I can kind of get it. But I think he was pressured and coerced and succumbed to the pressure. And that explains how mandate started in Houston, Texas. And we are the largest medical center in the world. We bring in people from all over. So it dilutes the typical Texas independent values that you might think of. And health care is. I have this theory that healthcare is slowly turning Texas blue for that reason.

[A]

Yeah, I want to go back to. And along these lines, I want to go back to the monoclonal antibodies fiasco and. And just remind people how politicized and corrupt the system is, because by this point, the governor of Florida, unlike the governor of Texas, had gotten pretty good. Desantis wasn't always perfect by any means on the question of lockdowns and vaccine mandates. But by the time monoclonal antibodies were widely understood to be an important therapy on this, suddenly the Biden administration essentially nationalized the supply of monoclonal antibodies. And personally, this happened right when my wife, Terry, got Covid. And I was just livid that I couldn't get this treatment. And it was all because of politics and politics, both partisan politics, but also perhaps doing the bidding of Big Pharma, because God help us if a therapy works and you don't have to have these expensive shots that are mandated by the government. Like, when did you discover monoclonals? And did you lose access at that moment that I'm talking about?

[B]

Yeah. I was an early proponent and user of monoclonal antibodies. I think we actually even participated in a trial, just not maybe 10 patients. It wasn't a big trial, and I found them incredibly effective and no safety issues. And people would say, yeah, I woke up the next morning, I felt tremendously better. And initially we could get as many doses as we wanted. It was very easy. And then the government took over distribution, and they did this. If you look at the timing of how all that happened. I believe that it was. They were taken away in, you know, to get people to take the shot, because right after they took them away, they mandated the COVID shot. But, yeah, I. It's funny, I look back on my text messages, and one of the most frequent texts I had at that time was asking my nurses, do we have any monoclonal antibodies? Do we have any. You know, because people, the demand kept up, and this. The. This. It also, they took them away during the third and largest peak of the pandemic. So the fall of 2021 was when everything really hit the fan and patients were hospitalized at the highest rate that we'd had during the pandemic. Despite having the COVID shot. Right. The COVID shot had already come out and been out for eight, nine months. But it obviously wasn't working because we had this massive surge of patients at that time. And unfortunately, they took away the most effective treatment we had.

[A]

Thank you for joining me today on Kibbe on Liberty and for being part of our fiercely independent audience. Every week, my organization, Free the People, partners with BlazeTV to bring you this show. My guests bring smart perspectives on everything from current events to timeless philosophical debates. If you like what you hear, go to freethepeople.org kol and support Kibbe on Liberty so we can continue to pursue these honest conversations with interesting people. Now, let's get back to it. Do you think it was partisan politics because Ron DeSantis was getting positive press for finding this or at least promoting this therapy? Or was it the bidding of big pharma and how much they invest in politics?

[B]

Well, I think it was tied in with the COVID shot and trying to get a shot in everybody's arm. And they knew people knew they could get the monoclonal antibodies and not have to worry about the shot. In fact, you weren't allowed to get the shot for three months after getting the monoclonal antibodies. And I think Desantis was just reacting to that in a positive way. I had friends telling me I should do the same, but they are prohibitively expensive to buy your own. But they're like, you should buy your own doses of these monoclonals. But he. I think he was reacting to that. The other thing that happened at this time is the FDA went after ivermectin. This is late August 2021. They put out the horse tweet where you had the attractive health care worker nuzzling the horse and says, seriously, y', all, you're not a horse. You're not a cow. Stop it. And that tweet went viral and, you know, became so much harder for me to prescribe Ivermectin to get access to. To my patients for Ivermectin. And that's right when they took away the monoclonal antibodies. And right after that, they mandated the shots.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like clockwork, isn't it?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So you. Well, let's talk about the adverse effects of the shots. But first, the question is, ivermectin, is this a dangerous, unproven drug?

[B]

No, no. It's won a Nobel Prize in medicine. Like I said, I dug into the safety very deeply. I went to the FDA's website and I found the toxicity data. So every drug that is approved by the fda, you can research the toxicity data that they have to submit to the FDA to get approval. And one of the numbers that I looked at is called the LD50, or lethal dose 50. It literally means what amount of drug would kill 50% of lab animals. It's a benchmark number we use to determine toxicity. And what I found was that the LD50 of ivermectin was hundreds of times higher than what we were prescribing then. I did a literature search, and I tried to find examples of accidental or intentional overdose with Ivermectin. I could not find a single study, so I knew it was super safe.

[A]

Yeah. And I noticed this. I'm jumping around a little bit, but. But there are a handful of states that have made it legal over the counter, is that correct?

[B]

Yes, five states. And it's not technically over the counter. It's still hard to access, unfortunately, but Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Idaho, and Tennessee. And it looks like South Carolina will probably be the sixth state. The law basically says that a pharmacist can dispense it without a doctor's prescription. But unfortunately, we're having a hard time finding pharmacists with willing to do that despite the new laws.

[A]

Because they'll be punished by the system if they don't comply.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, it says the laws say they are protected from liability, but for some reason, they're still very reluctant to do it.

[A]

And I definitely want to get into vaccine damage. But this, I think, brings us to a little bit of what I've seen about the hantavirus. This is not a new virus, and it's very different than Covid, and maybe you could get into that. But is it also true that ivermectin might be a promising treatment for that?

[B]

Well, there's no studies saying it would help. There are no studies saying it wouldn't help. But it does have multiple mechanisms of action of inhibiting this type of RNA virus. It also has multiple mechanisms of action for inhibiting the cytokine storm, which can cause so much damage after the viral infection, which happens in both the hantavirus and Covid. So, you know, we were using Ivermectin worked best the earlier you used it, but it still worked even in the late stages of the disease because it has these anti inflammatory properties. So you know, my argument is if I had hantavirus, I would throw the kitchen sink at it. And one of the things I would throw at it is Ivermectin.

[A]

And again, like it's, there's, there's no evidence that it's unsafe. Whatever happened, it was, it was CDC or FDA that did the horse tweet the fda.

[B]

And we sued them over that and actually won. And so basically they, and they had it on their website too, basically telling patients not to take it for Covid and telling doctors not to prescribe it for Covid. And they're not allowed to do that. So they're allowed to approve medications, but they're not allowed to, to direct patients on how to take them and they're not allowed to direct doctors on how to prescribe them. So we did sue them and they took down their misinformation from their website and from the Internet. But unfortunately the stigma still stands with Ivermectin. And you know, if I were running the fda, I would put out a statement about the safety, trying to educate people about it and I would make it over the counter for the whole country because people are basically just buying it from the feed store or they're buying it from India and it's completely unnecessary.

[A]

So you had tried to make it available to your patients. What happened? Because I read something you posted, even just today or yesterday.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, is there just always. Every step of the way I thought I had a source that was reliable. And when I looked at the fine print, I realized that it was not up to snuff, it was not up to quality. So I'm now looking for a new source and I'm going to, I have to partner with a pharmacist. I think I've gotten that ironed out. But it's just, it's just one thing after another. It's a very inexpensive medicine. It should not be this complicated.

[A]

Yeah, I mean it gets back to the sort of institutional corruption of the System, which is a nice segue to talking about vaccine damage. Something that apparently, until recently, we weren't allowed to talk about. And I assume you write about this in your book, but you saw a lot of vaccine damage, and a lot of your practice was treating people that have been damaged by the vaccine. Tell the story.

[B]

Yeah, so I, you know, I checked the patients, my new patients in the. In the first two years after the rollout of these shots, 7% of my new patients were coming to see me with injuries from these shots. And these are people that were previously healthy. They get the shot, and then all of a sudden these major issues develop. These are not, you know, these are not maybes. These are. There's no other explanation. They get all sorts of tests to rule out other explanations, and nothing comes up. And I've seen things like really severe rashes, recurrent hives. In fact, I saw a patient this morning who's had recurrent hives since she got her Pfizer shots. And no other skin issues before. I've seen severe neurological problems. So, for example, I have a patient who's, I think, 55 years old. She got the shots in her right arm, and her right arm has not stopped shaking for five years since that happened. And she can't fix it. I've seen people with tremors all over their body following the shots. I've seen people with pots, which is when your blood pressure and pulse just erratically fluctuate for no reason at all. See a lot of people with brain fog and chronic fatigue who were previously healthy. Definitely seen people with heart problems after the shots. And then I think now we're going to have to worry about cancer. They've been sitting on cancer data since 2022, but they did come out with some recent data from 2023, which is very concerning, showing a market increase in cancer in patients under 50, which is our big concern

[A]

at Kibbe on Liberty. Freedom is a lifestyle24.7, something you live and breathe and wear every day. If that describes you, you need the very best Liberty swag in the market today, just like this shirt I happen to be wearing. Go to freethepeople.org and check out our exciting merch. You too can love Liberty and look cool. So my sense, I know you've been critical of. All of the regulatory agencies under RFK Jr. S leadership about not doing enough, but I wonder if you know where we are right now in terms of getting actual data and getting the government to tell us what's actually going on on this, because I believe RFK Jr just said something about this and I don't actually know what's going on.

[B]

Well, unless something has happened the last 24 hours, I'm not aware of any new developments with HHS. But yeah, we have 4,551 peer review published studies. You can find those on React 19's website, all concerning harms of the COVID shots. We have at least 10 studies showing that the vials were contaminated with excess levels of DNA, which is just not allowed under normal circumstances. But for some reason, these shots are getting a pass. We have life insurance and disability data that showed a huge surge in working class Americans filing for disability in that third quarter, 2021, when the shots were coming out, when shots were mandated. We have more than enough evidence to pull these shots like any other shot. Any other medication would have been pulled a long time ago based on the data. I think the sticking point is Trump and I. You know, prior to Robert Kennedy coming into office as HHS secretary, he was fully on our side. In fact, I think I'm certain he rose to power because of what he spoke out against during COVID But now that he's in office, he's apparently not allowed to talk about it. Maha won't talk about it. The entire pandemic has been swept under the rug.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious to me that you're right, that Trump is the problem and he's been cutting these deals with big Pharma and I think he's as a business guy that wrongly sort of views his presidency as about making business deals. He continues to prop up big Pharma and, you know, I'm sure it's purely coincidental that Moderna is developing a MRNA henta virus vaccine as this new hysteria sort of builds. And, you know, hopefully by the time the show runs, we'll have moved on to the next crisis, but I don't think so. I think they're digging their heels in on this one.

[B]

I woke up this morning and my feed was flooded with new updates on Hantavirus and it was super annoying. But when I went on Google Trends, it doesn't seem like the rest of the world, the general public, they were interested in hantavirus, but it's all of a sudden just dropped. The interest is dropping, which is good. I hope it continues that way.

[A]

Yeah, the biggest red pill I took during the COVID fights, and I was approaching it not as a doctor like you, but as an economist and thinking about the human consequences of actually shutting down the economy and locking everybody up in their homes. And I knew without thinking too hard that that would be catastrophic for people. And it turns out that they weren't going to lock down everybody. And the laptop class could still get their Uber eats and hope that truck drivers still got the food to where it needed to be. But as I dug into it, I started to learn about the sort of intertwined, perverse incentives between pharmaceutical companies and the regulators themselves. Like, there's a profit motive for guys like Anthony Fauci to push for vaccine mandates. And I had no idea that people developing medical therapeutics were so entwined with government until I had to dig into it. I had to find out what was going on.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't give the FDA a second thought until. Until the pandemic. It was just not on my radar. I trusted for the most part. I mean, there were some. I. I had seen some drugs come and go during my career, so. But under normal circumstances, FDA would sweep in and, you know, when things started going wrong, they would generally do the right thing and take them off the market. This is nothing that we've seen before. And, yeah, there's a revolving door between the government and these drug companies. So once they leave the government, they go to the drug companies, and it's a big, tangled mess.

[A]

Yeah, RFK Jr calls it corporate capture. We libertarians call it regulatory capture. But it's basically the same thing where. Where profit motives corrupt the system and they basically buy the system. And by the way, those same interests are the ones that are holding up corporate media. That's where all their ad revenue comes from. So I think it's not surprising to see all of the scare stories, because I think it's their bread and butter as well.

[B]

Exactly. And the media is complicit in it because the media depends on the advertising.

[A]

So I'm guessing you're not popular with any of these guys, and you've been developing this narrative and you've been on a lot of big programs. The medical industrial complex is not done with you yet. Is that right? They're still going after you?

[B]

Yeah, I'm still in the thick of it. I'm still fighting the medical board. I'm still fighting Houston Methodist, with Methodist. I sued them. I gave up on trying to get their financials, and so then I sued them for defamation, and I lost that, but I lost some of technicality. And my lawyer had a stroke in the middle of the whole thing, and I think he just made an error because he was sick. And I ended up having to pay their legal Fees. So I sent them a check for that, which was $166,000. And then they decided they wanted interest, but we had already negotiated that we wouldn't pay, that I wouldn't pay the interest because there were circumstances out of my control, the lawyer having a stroke and their lawyer disappearing. So we reached an agreement on that, and they cashed my check. But then I tweeted something mean about them, and so they decided they're going to go after me for interest. So I'm still fighting that. And then with the medical board, there was during the. When things were going crazy in the fall of 2021, there was a patient trying to get Ivermectin who was in the hospital. And his. The hospital refused. This was Texas Hughley Hospital in Fort Worth. And he. They were just. They had tried everything, and they were talking hospice, but they would not let him have Ivermectin. So the wife sued and asked me to testify. And we won the lawsuit. And the court ordered the hospital to give me emergency temporary privileges without delay. Well, they wouldn't do it. I submitted two full applications, and they kept stalling. But the lawyer told me that we finally, they had to go back to the judge. And the lawyer came back and said, we're good. You can send the nurse. So I sent the nurse. She's greeted by the police. They don't let her in. She leaves. There's not a big stage seen. But they turned me in the medical board because they did not officially grant me privileges despite the. And I'm still fighting that. I'm fighting on principle. And then I'm also suing the medical board in a different case. I'm joined three other doctors because we're suing over free speech. We're suing six medical boards, and then the umbrella agency, the Federation of State Medical Board Boards, because they sent out an edict in the fall of 2021 basically telling the medical boards to go after doctors for spreading mis. Misinformation. So two of the doctors on my lawsuit have lost their licenses, and I, fortunately, still have mine. But all of us were basically targeted for our free speech.

[A]

So what? How would you fix this system besides just fighting it with lawsuits? And I know you're parts of organizations that are looking for more medical freedom for doctor dissidents like yourself, but how do you fix the system? Do we just opt out of it? And is that enough, or is there other things we should be doing?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the most expeditious way is to opt out of it as Much as you can, you know, don't go to, I mean there's, there's going to be unavoidable encounters, right? If you get in a car wreck and you get cancer or, you know, but you know, for their day to day things, don't, don't opt into that system. Stay out, stay out of that system. Find a doctor who's independent. You know, bigger picture. I think the federal level is super hard to fight. I think it's easier on the state level. There are, I think there are eight states that are trying to ban mRNA, which, you know, I think if we keep fighting we can eventually get there. And then if we can get one state on board, then we can see more states. But I'm still very passionate about pulling these shots off the market because 20% of healthcare providers are still pushing them on people. Seven million children have gotten these shots this year. Pregnant women are still getting them. And there's just zero upside to this. I mean, I can't even remember the last time I treated a COVID patient. I mean there's no mortal threat to us anymore at all with this virus and people should not be undergoing this risk, particularly children and pregnant women should not be subjected to this risk from these shots.

[A]

So you've written this book and I think some of the stories you just told me are probably laid out in more detail than that. But what's your goal? Do you find that your dissidence is. It's safer the louder you are because there's a constituency that is waking up to your message.

[B]

That has been my strategy from the get go. Be as loud as possible because I do think that's protective. Right? You either completely shut down or you, or you hit it full force. And I do think more and more people are on board. They may not, we may not be aware of it, but you do see a general decline in patients getting these Covid shots. You do see an uptick in lack of trust in the public health agencies. And I'm hoping, yeah, we just, we just need to keep the best thing we can do or the most thing that we have power over is educating other people about what's going on. Because I don't think the government's going to help us.

[A]

The malfeasance and malpractice of big medicine has created and has earned this a distrust in the system itself, a distrust in vaccines generally. You're probably more skeptical about your doctor's advice. You're more worried about going to the hospital. That's a double edged sword I think because people might rationally forego the things that they should be doing. What do we do about that?

[B]

Yes. I mean, I suffer from that, too. I am reluctant to go get those screening tests that I'm due for. I just want to be away from that completely. You know, there's a lot more information out there to educate yourself. I tell people, just take care of. There's so much in your power to take care of your health. I mean, managing your weight, getting enough sleep, exercising, eating healthy. I mean, those are. Those make so much more impact on your health than a doctor could ever do. So start with that. Step one.

[A]

So what story in the book don't I know about to ask you that you find to be an important part?

[B]

I think my favorite is when I was at Stanford, and it's five years of residency, and I tell people it felt like a prison sentence because you have no control over your free time. You have no control of when you can eat. It's. And the hours are just massive. You're chronically tired. So it's the last. It was a day before my graduation, and one of my toughest attendings. And attending is like our teacher, right? And he comes into the little residence office, and he has his dog with him. His dog was with him at all times. His little golden retriever. And, you know, the attendings rarely go into the resident's office. It's like our little cave. And so when an attending comes in, it's a big deal. So it was memorable. And he was like, I want to give y' all some parting advice. And the first thing he said was, when you are out in private practice, try to find out who the best people are to refer other patients your refer your patients to you, because you'll get judged on those experiences. If you send a patient to a bad doctor, it. It looks bad on you. But the second thing he said was really be careful about prescribing the latest drug to come out on the market. Don't be the first to prescribe it. Wait and give it time. And for some reason, that just stuck with me. And it ended up changing my life. Right. 20. Not for. It took 20 years, but it changed my life in ways that I never imagined. And I recently reconnected with that doctor, and he's reading my book now, and I'm waiting for his reaction. I don't even know what happened to him during the pandemic, if he's on my side. But when I reached out to him, he was friendly. So I, you know, I Think he's open minded to it.

[A]

That'll be, that'll be interesting. I know you told Tucker Carlson that you're, you had some initial skepticism about the vaccine just because of how quickly, quickly they got it to market it. It seems like an obvious red flag.

[B]

Right? Right, Yeah. I mean, there's so many red flags. And then they told us it only stays in your arm. I don't know if you've ever put a nicotine patch on your skin, but that goes all throughout your body and that's not even an injection. So, yeah, lots of red flags from. And that, that's the primary one. I actually, I looked at the study too, that they did because, and that, that was sort of the clinching point for me because the way they did their study didn't make sense to me. They, they would give people either the shot or the placebo, and then the investigator got to decide whether or not the patient should be tested for Covid. But in my opinion, they should have just, they should have just systematically check the patients every week to see if they were testing positive. Because that's how we were treating, we were treating patients as you have Covid even if you don't have symptoms. Right. That was the mantra. But they didn't test the product that way. They only tested the patient if the investigator thought it was worthy of testing them, which did not make sense.

[A]

So I wonder what you think about this. I'm a 20 year stage 4 cancer survivor, completely healthy now, but as a result of. I worked on Capitol Hill, I worked on healthcare policy, I've worked on FDA policy, I'm an economist by training, so I've always been quite vocal about the right to try. I always thought it was absurd that a person with a literal death sentence couldn't try an experimental therapy, an experimental drug. It might have been the COVID vaccine. So I'm a huge fan of right to try. But the other side of that coin is the right not to be forced to try. Where do you fall on this balance between patient autonomy and the experts thinking they know something better?

[B]

Yeah, I'm huge proponent of right to try. I know that there's a contingency out there that thinks, or a group out there that thinks that we shouldn't pull the shots off the market because that denies that right of try premise. But my counter to that is it's all potential harm and there's no benefit to it at all. And you just don't make those available to patients. And there's a right to try law in Texas, but it doesn't apply to drugs that are being used off label. It's only for investigational drugs that haven't met full FDA approval.

[A]

So Ivermectin doesn't qualify. That's absurd.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah. But I interrupted.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean. Yeah, I definitely believe in patient autonomy, especially in a situation where, I mean, it's like my patient in the hospital who was dying and they were talking hospice, but they won't let him try Ivermectin. That's just beyond absurd. Right. But it's. Yeah. I don't know. The. In terms of. If you're. If you're. I don't know if your point was that we shouldn't take the shots off because that denies it.

[A]

That wasn't. And I think you could convince me on this point. I haven't thought about it deeply, but the fact that it was mandated and the fact that we now have very clear evidence that the health costs are so much higher than the potential benefits, at very least, they should be forced to admit that publicly after having so fully endorsed something that turned out to be dangerous. No, that wasn't my point. My point is more about the absurdity of not allowing people who are being told to go to hospice to try something like Ivermectin. It's so immoral. It's hard to articulate.

[B]

Yeah. And cancer patients are not telling their oncologists that they're on Ivermectin. I can tell you, because a lot of them will get berated or worse, fired by their doctor if they tell them they're taking Ivermectin. But I can guarantee you it's happening way more than the oncologist would like to admit or realize.

[A]

Yeah. You had told a story about a doctor refusing to treat a patient that wasn't vaccinated. What does the Hippocratic oath say about that? Do you have a responsibility to treat patients, or are you free to not treat patients?

[B]

Yeah, it definitely raises some ethical questions. I think, technically, they are definitely getting away with it. There's been a sweeping uptick in pediatricians now refusing and kicking out patients who won't vaccinate their children the way the pediatrician wants them to do it. And I think legally they are allowed to do that, but ethically, you know, it destroys the premise of a patient autonomy. And are they. Are these patients truly getting informed consent? I highly doubt it. Because when you go to the pediatrician's office, they're not telling you that. Okay, well, if something goes Wrong. You have absolutely zero recourse because the pharmaceutical companies are protected from any kind of liability thanks to the 1986 Vaccine Protection Injury Act. Right. Patients are not made aware of that. There's no other recourse. Patients are not told that none of the vaccines were tested against a true saline placebo. So, you know, it's one thing if you give people informed consent with accurate information and then maybe you choose not to engage with them because they're not taking advice, but when you're not even giving them informed consent and then you kick them out, that's just completely egregious.

[A]

Another red pill from my research is discovering that the vaccine schedule, particularly for infants, is in and of itself politicized, corrupted by corporate interests and, and probably doesn't like right or wrong. It doesn't necessarily reflect a medical consensus. It reflects something else.

[B]

Yeah, we certainly, when I was going through training during medical school and residency, that whole thing was glossed over. We were basically told it's safe and effective, safe and effective. And there wasn't much more to it than that. And shame on me, I never questioned it. Now I didn't give that as an ear, nose and throat doctor, I wasn't giving out the vaccines, but I just, you know, I trusted the people that were teaching me, unfortunately.

[A]

Yeah, well, we're all learning the hard way, but at least we're learning. So tell us where everybody watching this if they want to know more. First question is where do they buy the book? Is it everywhere? Is anyone banning your book?

[B]

Not yet. It's, you can pre order it on Amazon and you can, it's, the publisher is Post Hill Press and if you order directly from them, I'm sure they would appreciate that. And then in terms of following me, I'm very active on X. And then I have a substack called Dangerous Misinformation. I also have a podcast that comes out usually once a week which is on all the major, you know, YouTube and rumble and all that.

[A]

And are there any organizations that you're associated with that you think produce good information on this stuff?

[B]

Yes. So I'm a senior fellow with the Independent Medical Alliance. That's a great resource for finding like minded independent doctors. And then I'm on the board of directors of the Vaccine Safety Research foundation and we have a campaign going trying to collect signatures to have that 1986 Vaccine Injury act repealed. There actually are two bills. There's one in the, in the House and one in the Senate. On a federal level, Representative Paul Gosar from Arizona is authoring the one in the House, and then Senator Rand Paul is authoring the one in the Senate that would repeal the 1986 Vaccine Injury Act. So if you go to their website, you can sign your name to that petition.

[A]

Okay, Mary, I really appreciate your time and good luck on launch day. By the time people see this, the book will be out so they can buy it immediately and hopefully you sell a million copies. Turn people on to this. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thanks for watching. If you liked the conversation, make sure to like the video, subscribe and also ring the bell for notifications. And if you want to know more about Free the people, go to freethepeople.org.