Ep 336 | Both Parties Want an Immigration War | Guest: Steven Olikara

Summary

Episode Overview

In Episode 336 of Kibbe on Liberty, hosted by Matt Kibbe from the Blaze Podcast Network, libertarian author and economist Matt Kibbe engages in a thought-provoking discussion with Steven Olakara, a progressive populist. The episode, titled "Both Parties Want an Immigration War," delves into the intricate dynamics of American politics, the pervasive influence of money, and the pressing need to bridge the ever-widening political divide.

---

Introduction and Personal Connections (00:00 - 02:10)

The conversation kicks off with Matt welcoming Steven Olakara and highlighting their shared interest in fostering honest and respectful political discourse. Both hosts express their deep-rooted connections to rock culture, illustrating a shared affinity that transcends political lines.

Matt Kibbe shares, “I think there should be a punk element to libertarianism, just standing up against the man, questioning authority always. And if we're doing that, I think I'm going to draw more people into libertarianism” (02:07).

Steven Olakara echoes this sentiment, noting the anti-establishment nature of punk rock and its alignment with libertarian values: “I would just, I mean, I guess you agree it's a punk rock movement in politics” (02:39).

---

The Division Industrial Complex (03:05 - 07:33)

The core of the episode revolves around the concept of the Division Industrial Complex, a term Steven introduces to describe how political factions exploit societal divisions to amass power and profits. They discuss the historical context, referencing James Madison and George Washington's warnings against extreme factionalism as a threat to American liberty.

Steven Olakara articulates, “Some of these key Founding Fathers really thought that extreme partisanship and toxic polarization would be a direct threat to liberty in America” (06:21). He underscores the importance of cross-partisan dialogue, emphasizing that diverse and honest conversations are essential for a healthy democracy.

---

Political Party Dynamics and Corruption (12:07 - 21:16)

Matt and Steven delve into the dysfunction within political parties, highlighting how both the Democratic and Republican establishments prioritize maintaining power over genuine democratic engagement. Steven recounts his experience running for the U.S. Senate in Wisconsin, where he advocated for ending legalized bribery and enforcing term limits, only to face systemic barriers imposed by the Democratic establishment.

Steven Olakara reflects, “Term limits are sexy... We had a really wide, in many ways it was the coalition of my dreams that I always sought to create” (16:53). He criticizes the Democratic Party’s reluctance to embrace genuine democratic reforms, drawing parallels to the Republican Party’s suppression of Ron Paul’s candidacy.

---

Immigration Debate (30:54 - 41:30)

A significant portion of the discussion centers on immigration, with both hosts expressing concern over how both political parties manipulate immigration issues for their agendas. Matt outlines his libertarian stance, advocating for a predictable system that rewards legal immigration while preventing illegal entry.

Matt Kibbe states, “Both parties want immigration to become political pawns” (31:36). Steven complements this by critiquing the Democrats’ hesitancy to implement comprehensive immigration reforms, arguing that the Division Industrial Complex thrives on keeping immigration a contentious and lucrative issue.

---

Influence of Money and Lobbying (44:02 - 51:20)

The conversation shifts to the pervasive influence of money in politics, with Steven proposing concrete reforms to dismantle the Division Industrial Complex. He advocates for banning lobbyists from funding members of Congress and reassigning committee seats based on expertise rather than financial contributions.

Steven Olakara emphasizes, “There are a number of reforms I think that could be helpful... banning lobbyists from funding members of Congress” (50:58). Matt concurs, highlighting the systemic corruption that allows military contractors and Big Pharma to manipulate policy for their gain.

---

Call for Political Reforms (51:20 - 57:09)

Both hosts passionately argue for sweeping political reforms to restore integrity and functionality in American governance. Steven outlines strategies such as redistributing media power across the nation and implementing strict rules against fundraising during congressional sessions.

Matt Kibbe shares his frustration, “How do we break the back of crony capitalism without moving money and power out of Washington” (48:50). Steven responds by suggesting the decentralization of power and media, coupled with stringent anti-corruption measures, as pathways to meaningful change.

---

Bridge Building Across Divides (57:09 - 64:19)

In the concluding segment, Matt and Steven explore the potential for collaboration between libertarians and progressives to foster a more unified and effective political landscape. They discuss initiatives like Bridge Entertainment Labs, which Steven is spearheading to promote cross-partisan understanding through storytelling and media.

Steven Olakara highlights current projects, “We worked with Alex Garland and the cast... talking about the importance of listening to people who are different than them” (63:08). Matt envisions a future where diverse political factions can find common ground on issues like defense and government accountability.

---

Notable Quotes

• Matt Kibbe: “I think there should be a punk element to libertarianism, just standing up against the man, questioning authority always” (02:07).

• Steven Olakara: “Some of these key Founding Fathers really thought that extreme partisanship and toxic polarization would be a direct threat to liberty in America” (06:21).

• Matt Kibbe: “Both parties want immigration to become political pawns” (31:36).

• Steven Olakara: “We need to have a system that is predictable and rewards that” (32:28).

• Matt Kibbe: “How do we break the back of crony capitalism without moving money and power out of Washington” (48:50).

---

Conclusion

Episode 336 of Kibbe on Liberty offers a compelling examination of the forces fragmenting American politics. Through the insightful dialogue between Matt Kibbe and Steven Olakara, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how entrenched interests and partisan agendas perpetuate division, particularly around critical issues like immigration. The episode not only highlights the problems but also presents actionable solutions aimed at fostering unity and integrity within the political system. By advocating for transparency, reduced influence of money in politics, and cross-partisan collaboration, Matt and Steven pave the way for a more cohesive and functional American democracy.

Transcript

[Matt Kibbe]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. I'm speaking with my friend Steven Olakara who is a progressive populist about the division industrial complex and how the political machine keeps the two sides fighting with each other while they grow their power and their money. Check it out. Welcome to Kibby on Liberty. Stephen, how's it going?

[Steven Olakara]

Great to see you. This is a cool spot. I described this as well, American history meets rock and roll meets libertarian hipsterism. I mean, I love this.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, I have my little temple to Jerry Garcia over there.

[Steven Olakara]

I see that. Okay, nice.

[Matt Kibbe]

And my favorite progressive metal band, Rush is over here. So. So we do have a little bit of rock and roll happening.

[Steven Olakara]

And I grew up on rock and roll. Do you feel like there is a connection between libertarianism and rock culture?

[Matt Kibbe]

I mean, the drummer from Rush was an actual libertarian and he would write these lyrics when I was like 13. This is when I was turned onto this stuff. So for me there was a very explicit link because the lyrics that I was into led me to all of the books I read that turned me into like a full fledged secret handshake card carrying libertarian.

[Steven Olakara]

Nice.

[Matt Kibbe]

So I think, yeah, like that. And there should be a punk element to libertarianism, just standing up against the man, questioning authority always. And if we're doing that, I think I'm going to draw more people into libertarianism.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, yeah, I feel that. I mean, there's an anti establishment nature to punk rock that appealed to me in the 1990s when I started playing guitar. And then on top of that, this mental, this attitude of self expression, like be your most unique self. And I think in the libertarian movement you are constantly fighting the binaries in our politics. So it really is. I would just, I mean, I guess you agree it's a punk rock movement in politics.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. And I live in D.C. so you have to be comfortable being very lonely. Yes, but that's okay. Like I. What I always say is if I have to be standing alone, that's okay. But I'm always more interested in being part of a community. But it has to be based on the principles that I espouse, which is live your life as long as you don't hurt people or take their stuff.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, that's right.

[Matt Kibbe]

So what kind of music are you into?

[Steven Olakara]

Well, I grew up on 90s rock like Nirvana, Green Day, Weezer. Really got me started on guitar and drums, which I picked up. Guitar was third grade onwards and then drums was fourth grade and really changed my life. Got really deep into jazz music when I was in middle school and high school. I had a 70s era funk band that would play James Brown, Earth, Wind and Fire, Sly and the Family Stone, Tower of Power, and then had a hip hop band that sounded like the Roots. A punk rock band called Ferocious Green, highly influenced by Green Day, and a Radiohead esque band. I had an Eastern European folk band a lot.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, you're all over the place.

[Steven Olakara]

All over the place.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, I love it a lot. Not all of those, but a lot of those influences I'm really into. Yeah, I'm the weirdo that likes electronic Radiohead better than guitar Radiohead.

[Steven Olakara]

I like them both.

[Matt Kibbe]

And I'm sure that's, that's, that's a sinful thing to say, but. So you and I were. We were just at this gathering called the Civic Collaboratory. We're not allowed to talk about what happens there, but you and I have been part of this group which, which leans pretty progressive. Yeah, I always call myself the token libertarian at this gathering that, that began when I debated the founder many years ago. And we, we found that we were actually agreeing on some things. And Eric Liu has actually been on this show. He was one of the first progressives brave enough to come on and have a conversation with me. And when I started this show, I actually aspired to have a real ideological balance to the extent that that was possible. I wanted people from the right, I wanted people from the left. It hasn't really worked out that way because to convince somebody that knowingly disagrees with me requires a level of trust. Do I trust you to have an honest conversation? Do I trust my audience enough to allow me to talk to someone that they probably don't agree with very much? Does that person trust their audience or is everyone going to feel betrayed at the end? Like, the complexities of this are kind of a microcosm of where we are today. And I wanted to bring you on. I think you probably lean a lot more left than I do. I'm not sure that's true, but just based on your political activism history, I think that's probably true. And I want you to talk me off the ledge.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Because I'm pretty black pilled about the possibility of the tribes coming together for peace talks. I think it's gotten really, really weird since Trump got elected the first time and certainly since COVID and lockdowns and that kind of stuff. It seems like people are just on different planets now. I'd like to believe that neighbors could still talk, but in my bubble, it doesn't seem that's true anymore.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah. Well, first, let's talk about why it's important we do talk. Going back to the Founding Fathers, James Madison in the Federalist Papers talks about the violence of faction. And George Washington, in his farewell address warns us of extreme factionalism. And when you would have that occur in American politics, sort of predicting what would happen in a two party system, it would create fertile ground for authoritarian tendencies to rise and facilitate foreign corruption and influence. So in other words, some of these key Founding Fathers, like Washington, Madison, I would argue Jefferson as well, really thought that extreme partisanship and toxic polarization would be a direct threat to liberty in America. So that's one reason to care about whether or not we can talk to each other across our political lines. On top of that, in a country as diverse as ours, I think you're a lot happier as a human being if we're able to talk to people who are different than you in a honest way, as you were describing earlier, Matt. And by the way, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm really grateful to be here.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, we'll see how it goes. Maybe this will devolve into an ugly fight.

[Steven Olakara]

I think it is fun to have these conversations. I enjoy it. I think one reason I feel a calling to be on podcasts like this and other political talk programs is because I want to bring that joy to as many people as I can. There's a lot of research that even shows that having political talk across difference is healthier for your immune system. People like Arthur Brooks have pointed to this in his book Love youe Enemies. So there are many reasons to do it. Most of all, if you care about making progress on a topic, it matters to be able to build coalitions across the political divide. So it really matters to do this. Now, you mentioned being, I guess, a little bit less hopeful than I am on the prospects for our tribes to kind of get together. And when you see the kind of images we've seen in Los Angeles recently with the, with the protests, riots going up against the ICE agents there, and the federalization of the National Guard there, those are the kind of images that seem eerily similar to the film that came out, the Alex Garland film that came out last year called Civil War, which imagines what a second American Civil War would look like. And I do think that we are living in a cold civil war. So I'm pretty.

[Matt Kibbe]

This is the. It's fictional, right?

[Steven Olakara]

It's fictional.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, I watched it. It was. Yeah, it was scary and compelling.

[Steven Olakara]

Yes, exactly, exactly. So I think we are living in a cold civil war right now. It's getting hot at certain moments like we're describing in la, but also I would say the burning or keying of Tesla cars over the last few months is another example of where a cold civil war is getting a little bit hot. And there are other examples too. Obviously there was an attempted assassination on President Trump. So I'm clear eyed about all of these things that we're seeing. And yet I think when you look at what's happening in local communities on a human to human level, people are not only much better than we realize about having conversations across difference, but actually want to. I see such a high demand for it, but often a dearth of skills to do so. I think part of what's happening right now is we have what I call a division industrial complex that weaponizes are real political differences, which are fine and I would say even encouraged to have in a country like America, but it weaponizes those differences into feeling fearful all the time and it convinces us to hate each other and believe that progress isn't possible. That division industrial complex is a multi billion dollar industry that involves not only political elites and political parties, but also the social media companies and political media as well. And that industrial complex, I think mimics a lot of the behavior of the military industrial complex as well as the pharmaceutical industrial complex, and it needs to be disrupted. So I think the reason I feel hopeful is because I see demand on the ground. I'm pretty clear about what we need to reform and change in these systems. And if we can pursue those changes, which I can get into more detail, it's political reforms, it's change. I think we need to take on the algorithms at some of these social media companies. There are a few clear solutions that we can pursue. Then I think we can have a much healthier political discourse in America, which it's not uniform. It's a healthier discourse where we can have healthier conflict and we don't have all these conversations that split up family members and friend circles, which is happening all across the country right now. So I think we can have a healthier politics when we can reunite with our family and friends and have these conversations.

[Unknown]

Thank you for joining me today on Kibbe on Liberty and for being part of our fiercely independent audience. Every week, my organization, Free the People, partners with BlazeTV to bring you this show. My guests bring smart perspectives on everything from current events to timeless philosophical debates. If you like what you hear, go to freethepeople.org kol and support Kibbe on Liberty. So we can continue to produce these honest conversations with interesting people. Now, let's get back to it.

[Matt Kibbe]

There is this dichotomy and I've worked with many groups, mostly libertarian and people left of center, starting with living room conversations. Joan there recruited me very early on. Maybe I've told you this story, but back when I was Mr. Tea Party and she was Mrs. What was the group she founded? The original.

[Steven Olakara]

It was a progressive group.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, it was a very iconic progressive group and I've forgotten the name of it.

[Steven Olakara]

Was it MoveOn?

[Matt Kibbe]

MoveOn? It was MoveOn.org which has in fact moved on. But. But she and I discovered that we agreed on some really important criminal justice reforms and she was brave enough to work with me and I was very comfortable working with anyone that I agreed with on something and that started conversations. And there's this dichotomy. Like when I'm looking across the table from you, I'm going to try to find connection. If people are watching this and we're performing and we're supposed to debate with each other, we're not even going to try to connect, we're going to try to score points.

[Steven Olakara]

Right.

[Matt Kibbe]

And I love this phrase, the division industrial complex and comparing it to the military industrial complex, because I actually, I think it's pretty much pieces of the same apparatus because if we're divided, we're probably not noticing what we should be focused on. But I want to get into that and I want to get into what's going on in LA and pick your brain on this. But give people a little bit of your resume because you've founded more than one organization that's been working on this particular question.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, that's right. Well, coming out of college, I, you know, a little bit of my political background too, because you kind of hinted at this earlier. I first got involved because I was a musician and a radio DJ in Milwaukee and I see Obama give his 2004 convention speech and he talks about how we're not just red states and blue states, we're the United States. And that to me is a compelling vision for American democracy. So I got involved initially through the Obama wave and I quickly saw just how difficult it would be to implement that vision. But that ultimately led to founding a national organization called Future Caucus, which is the largest cross partisan organization of young elected leaders in the country. The idea being that if we can develop and connect and cultivate this next generation of leaders in Congress and state legislatures, they might be able to come together on a set of issues that are not about left versus right, but rather future versus the past. And we found so many issues, including, like you already referenced, criminal justice reform. Clean energy is another great one that we found a lot of commonality on economic innovation and having a skilled workforce. So there are a lot of great issues there. And that organization grew and now I think nearly 2,000 young elected officials are a part of it. And we're passing great legislation on a monthly basis probably. And it really got me thinking, how do we actually change what's in the zeitgeist of our country? So I did run for a U.S. senate in Wisconsin, which was a great experience. I sometimes like to joke. I actually at the end of the campaign got to see the smoke filled rooms and live to tell the tale. And now I'm very open in telling those tales.

[Matt Kibbe]

This was the Ron Johnson seat.

[Steven Olakara]

Yes, the Ron Johnson seat in Wisconsin. And then to really change.

[Matt Kibbe]

Let me ask you about this because I knew you ran. I have no idea what your platform was. And I know that there was sort of an anointed leader in the Democratic primary. What was your big issue and what was the big difference between you and the guy that won the nomination? On the Democratic side, my number one.

[Steven Olakara]

Issue was ending legalized bribery in Congress, ending the system of money in politics that is corrupting elected officials, that's causing them not to do their jobs. Instead of spending their daytime hours doing legislating, they're actually across the street raising money from lobbyists and big money special interests.

[Matt Kibbe]

So corporate fundraising more so than insider trading.

[Steven Olakara]

Also, I was the only candidate to call for banning insider trading. I was also proudly the only candidate, Democrat or Republican, to call for term limits on members of Congress too. So I ran a very independent.

[Matt Kibbe]

Can you run as a Democrat on term limits?

[Steven Olakara]

I did actually. We had T shirts that said term limits are sexy. And we had a lot of support, especially among young people for that. So I ran a populist campaign. You know, we had the endorsement of people like Andrew Yang in that campaign as well. And a lot of actually key. We had a really kind of motley crew of people that came together in our campaign. We had some former Bernie organizers, we had former Trump voters, we had people who obviously supported Andrew Yang. The Yang gang really got behind us. So it was a really wide, in many ways it was the coalition of my dreams that I always sought to create and to do that in the middle of the country in Wisconsin was, was really great. And I, I felt definitely what the high moment of the campaign was our U.S. senate debate, when we finally had the platform to get our ideas out there. And I'll never forget going to a badger game, football game, soon after that. And there is a woman there who like, couldn't wait to come and talk with us. And she said, you know, I'm a longtime Republican in northern Wisconsin, but I watched the Democratic debate and you were the only person up there making sense and you're going to be the first Democrat that I vote for in life. So I loved being able to elevate some of the political reform ideas to people in a grassroots populist kind of way. And, you know, I came away even more hopeful that that kind of message can really resonate.

[Matt Kibbe]

Did you feel like you mentioned Bernie and Andrew Yang, who in a lot of ways both of them, when they were running, felt pretty disenfranchised from the Democratic machine. Did you have that experience?

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And you know, I think right now there's a conversation in the Democratic Party about neutrality because David Hogg, as a DNC vice chair, is talking about supporting some candidates who he calls do nothing Democrats. And so the Democratic Party is saying neutrality, we all have to be neutral. But that's not entirely consistent. The Democratic Party is only neutral when it comes to non establishment candidates. When it comes to supporting establishment candidates, that neutrality is out the window very quickly. And so we did have an establishment candidate that they had decided to support from the beginning. And I would say there are a lot of parallels kind of with the, with this past presidential election where there are people like Dean Phillips saying, like Biden is not going to run. But Dean Phillips was blacklisted in the Democratic Party. And in our race, I, and I wasn't the only one saying that that establishment candidate is not going to win a general election. And so yeah, the party establishment can prop someone up to win a primary, but in a state as politically diverse as Wisconsin, you need a bridge building kind of candidate. And so the net result was that establishment candidate was the only Democrat in a swing U.S. senate or gubernatorial race in 2022 to lose. And it just shows that the party elites can't expect to defy the will of the people and say, we're going to make choices on your behalf and expect that to win. And it actually deals with a deeper cultural issue with the Democratic Party. And why, to be honest, I'm more of an independent populist now as a result of what I've seen happen in the Democratic establishment over the last couple of years, which is this basic culture that says, we know what's best for you as opposed to we want to hear from you. And that is a party culture that I do not subscribe to and I want to have nothing to do with. You know, and it was honestly the kind of culture that I think Democrats rebelled against Republicans 20 years ago. The Family Values Republican Party said, we. We know how. We want to tell you how to live your lives. And you had a lot of progressives saying, like, no, we want to be free to live lives the way we want to. And now you're seeing that culture has infected the Democratic Party. So, yeah, I came away definitely disenchanted by the establishment, and I'm not the only one. That's why the Democrats are losing elections.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. I mean, having tried to do insurgent movements within the Republican Party, having tried to work with the Libertarian Party, I gotta tell you that the game is rigged.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And in my lifetime, there's been sort of key moments on the Republican side, much like the Democratic side. What the DNC did to Bernie is almost precisely what the RNC did to Ron Paul when he was running. Even at a point where Ron Paul obviously wasn't going to win the nomination. They just didn't want him on the stage, period. So you have this, and I think small P. Populism. I call myself a libertarian populist. I think that's the right side of history because the other side is the machine, and it's a collusion of government power and corporate power, and I hate it. But the question is, can you break it? And what does a truly Democratic politics even look like?

[Steven Olakara]

You know what's so funny about this, like, squashing and even sort of censoring of ideas that goes on. Both parties are guilty of this is in our race, we would always see at these grassroots events that were lighting it up like we would get the most applause out of all the candidates, and you could really feel the energy. So naturally, we wanted to have a debate, to be able to really get the ideas out to a statewide audience. And all the other campaigns in the party were making an extra effort to make sure there were no debates. And just the moment that there is a debate and. And there's no filter, it's just you and a camera in the audience. You could immediately see that kind of electricity come out. Even some of the establishment Democratic pundits the next day came out and said, like, Ole Cara was the winner of the debate. He had the strongest performance. Where did he come from? That kind of thing. And Then, just as those sparks are flying, the Democratic establishment effectively ended the race 10 days before the election. They said, we don't want to wait to hear what the people have to say. We're going to violate our bylaws and endorse the establishment candidate. And. And I got phone calls from a number of senior Democratic leaders calling to apologize to me. Why they're not only breaking their bylaws, but breaking their promise that they had made to me to be neutral in the primary. And so this parallels the examples that you're sharing, too, that there's this fear of what people think, and if you just let ideas breathe a little bit, if you let people express their voices, that. That's the kind of democracy I believe in.

[Matt Kibbe]

It's. It's kind of ironic that the Democratic.

[Steven Olakara]

Party is anti Democratic.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, definitely.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. And I like. And I'm not playing with words, but I want to define my terms. Like, I would consider myself radically Democratic. And by that, I don't mean just the idea that 50% plus one wins and then gets to do whatever they want to the other 49.9%. I think that's a very vulgar and potentially dangerous version of democracy. But I like the sort of democracy. This isn't a perfect analogy, but I like the democracy that is Spotify, where I can listen to my weird, very fringy end of the tail of the Internet versions of music that I like. But if someone wants to listen to Taylor Swift, you know, more power to him.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Just don't make. Just don't make me do it.

[Steven Olakara]

That's a good analogy. Yeah, I like that. I like that.

[Matt Kibbe]

And our politics today is you either get Taylor Swift or. What's the most obnoxious country musician? Logan? Most obnoxious country musician. Okay, never mind. My metaphors died. But it would be like forcing everybody to choose one of those two things. And this is sort of the dilemma, because ultimately, as we get closer to elections, and I think even Andrew Yang ultimately endorsed the Democrat in the presidential election. Right, right.

[Steven Olakara]

He did.

[Matt Kibbe]

Because they make it so that you have to choose their candidate or that really bad guy on the other side and that we go through this cycle every two, four years, and it's pretty disheartening for anybody that imagines that we could give people in democratic America choices that they would actually be proud of.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah. I think the fear of giving people choice among the establishment is worth kind of analyzing as a psychological phenomenon, because I've seen Democrats make, including in our primary choices that were prioritizing control over winning, you know, because in like, in our case, when I was getting those phone calls apologizing why they're breaking all their promises to me and everyone from the outside is like, well, it's kind of like the Bernie moment. And when, you know, when Pete Buttigieg dropped out and Amy Klobuchar dropped out and endorse Biden, even though he was, Bernie was on his way to potentially win that, that primary. A similar dynamic happened in our primary where suddenly all these candidates started dropping like flies. This all happened in like one week, basically. And so then all the attention turned to us saying, like, are you going to drop out as well? I got all those phone calls and I shared with them these party leaders. Are you aware of X, Y and Z with this establishment candidate? Because it will be an issue in the general election? And they said, yes, we are. So they are aware that these problems exist. And, and, and then the other reason was the money. They said, well, we can raise, you know, a little bit more money in the next 10 days. And I said, aren't you concerned about disrespecting voters and not making them feel like they can make their voices heard? And they said, well, it's more important that we can just like raise this money over the next 10 days. And so it's prioritizing money over people's voices being heard. So I think part of the psychological phenomenon here is, you know, what you know and you, and especially in politics, you're afraid of what you don't know. And among these party leaders, they've got into those positions by succeeding under a certain system and maximizing it for their own benefit. And so anything that comes off as a different message or a different system, like I support open primaries to address the kind of duopoly problem you were referencing earlier, I think it's just different. They don't know how to win under those circumstances, so they want nothing to do with it. Meanwhile, if you actually pull this stuff among Americans to make voters have more of a say in their, you know, in their leaders, not to have these fake elections, but have real elections, people want to be part of that. So I think it's an interesting dynamic, you know, psychologically.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. And I'll say this, that I'm, I'm just going to make a wild guess that you're not a huge Donald Trump guy. But he is the first candidate, I think in this, this breakup of the top down party leadership, he's the first guy to sort of take over a party, at least since Maybe since Abe Lincoln and now he is the party. So it was impossible to run against him in his last primary, but he broke the system and the Democrats seem still hell bent on preventing a real primary.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, I mean this next one will be really interesting leading into 2028 will start in 2027 and the positioning is happening now. It can be the first truly open Democratic primary since 2007 and 2008, where not the establishment candidate Barack Obama emerged and defeated the Clinton machine, which was in my view one of the greatest political victories in my lifetime. On par with Trump winning the 2016 Republican primary against establishment there. So we don't know yet if the Democrats will have an open primary. I still think the people in charge are still too fearful to have an open primary. And even though the moment is perfect for it, like there's clearly no field clearing candidate, it's wide open. Democrats are in the wilderness now, which usually means a new voice, a new movement can emerge. It's all set up for them, and yet there's a good chance they still shoot themselves in the foot.

[Unknown]

If you made it this far into the show, it means I must be doing something right. Key Beyond Liberty is just one of the amazing products we create at Free the People. We tell emotionally compelling stories and produce educational videos for the Liberty Curious. Our award winning documentaries personalize all things liberty. Independence, creativity, hard work, integrity and perseverance. After the show, check out our [e-mail] and if you like what you see, donate to support what we do. That's freethepeople.org now back to the show.

[Matt Kibbe]

Let's start a fight about immigration and I'll lay out my position that I've had probably my entire life. I've certainly thought more about it as I get older and I watch all of these problems emerging with illegal immigration and the way that I believe both parties view immigrants, legal and illegal essentially as political pawns. And I say that because there's all sorts the same divisions in the Republican Party. You have sort of a pro immigrant wing and a anti illegal immigrant wing and then a wing that actually just never wants another immigrant to come to this country.

[Steven Olakara]

Yes, I've met that wing before.

[Matt Kibbe]

But there's also like, you know, I remember Bernie calling immigration a Koch brothers scheme. So you have this element of, of populist skepticism that immigrants somehow undermine American workers. And that is not just the U.S. i think anti immigrant sentiment is almost everywhere and it's a fundamental problem. But the position I've always had is that if you want to come to this country and work and follow the rules, should have a system that is predictable and rewards that. But I don't think. I don't think the Democrats want to do that. What's your take?

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, I think I'll talk about the Democrats and then I'll talk about my own point of view on this. I think the Democrats are too concerned with walking on immigration eggshells and not offending groups instead of trying to have a sensible, humane policy at the border and in our immigration system. And as a result, we have not been able to get a comprehensive bill passed. I mean, even right now, in recent years, I would say there has been enough bipartisan votes to pass the DREAM act to make sure that there is an orderly, humane process for people who are dreamers, who came here due to no fault of their own, but they are undocumented and are for all intents and purposes, American citizens. But often Democrats have prevented that kind of legislation from moving because they don't want. It's all or nothing. Instead of getting a piece that can pass and make our system in our country a little bit better, it's getting this whole behemoth of a bill passed. So that's been a problem, too, too. I really think that, you know, the way I look at this debate is there is this kind of mushy bipartisanship that's been attempted, like the Marco Rubio bipartisan bill from a few years ago, which I guess he left because he started getting phone calls from the far right and the John McCain space. I actually think the interesting immigration consensus is on the other populist end of, of the spectrum. And the way I think about it is the sort of progressive heart in me is saying that we need to have a human system. There are people who are fleeing extremely dangerous countries who are seeking asylum. I've worked with individuals from countries like Sudan and Yemen who come here escaping Al Qaeda, escaping terrorist groups, and they're seeking asylum, and they've now successfully gotten their visas and now green cards are contributing members of American society. Now, that is something I believe in. And at the same time, I don't think it's that humane to be having millions of people living in the shadows in this country. So there needs to be a system to really prevent and ultimately stop illegal immigration, or people on the Democratic side would say undocumented immigration. And in order to do that, yes, there needs to be some smart border security. I don't think a wall actually is the smartest solution. You need now technology and Other forms to actually deter people. But I also think in terms of employers right now, I think there's more we can be doing to disincentivize employers from hiring undocumented immigrants. And so my kind of view on this is like both left and right at the same time that has an orderly process for people to become legal immigrants here. And by the way, the legal immigration system to make sure we're attracting the best entrepreneurs to our country, people who want to go to grad school here and actually stay here and create jobs. Obviously my family and my diaspora, the Indian diaspora, can definitely relate to that part of the story. It's really smart for our country to be able to compete in the 21st century. And at the same time, we need to prevent illegal immigration from happening.

[Matt Kibbe]

So a libertarian twist on this, and here's a deep cut.

[Steven Olakara]

I'm ready.

[Matt Kibbe]

In the 1990s, I think it was, my organization actually worked with Congressman Mike Pence to pass, to draft a. We never passed it, a guest worker program, knowing that, you know, one of the main pressures on the southern border are workers that are coming to this country to fill jobs that are available.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

But they get stuck here because they don't want to risk getting caught at the border and not being able to feed their families. And the idea was basically to have a private system that could link potential employers with potential employees, making sure the job is available to an American first, if that's a goal. And that would have taken a lot of pressure off the border to take it even a couple steps further. I feel like the war on drugs has created so much of the chaos in Latin America and the war on terror, the never ending wars, the regime change wars, the neoconservative, let's make Afghanistan this perfect democracy just like our own. Naive, stupid and dangerous. In my mind, you take a lot of pressure on immigrants fleeing the chaos and the violence. If we would think a lot about. About what we're doing to undermine their ability to live safely there. No one talks about that stuff. Instead, we make these potential immigrants political pawns. So let's fast forward to la because.

[Steven Olakara]

I think, Can I just add briefly that I think that to your point about immigrants and immigration becoming sort of a. Not just like a litmus test, but I think part of the division industrial complex in the sense that there are far more incentives to create, to keep immigration as an issue on the ballot as opposed to constructively resolving it, because both sides make way too much money on immigration as an issue. You know, obviously Trump made his Initial brand out of building the wall and anti immigration. And likewise, Democrats want to be seen as the party of immigrants and want to be able to vilify the right for being anti immigrant. And so both sides just fundraise way too much money on this for it to be resolved. But. Sorry, go ahead.

[Matt Kibbe]

No, that's a perfect tee up for what I was going to say about what I think is happening in la. And I have not stayed glued to X to see the latest outrage. But from my perspective, and tell me where I'm wrong, Gavin Newsom seems to want this fight. Like, man, is he on social media, working it and hoping that the Trump administration and ICE cross the line so that he can be the winner in this battle, even though real people are getting, getting hurt in the process. I think the Mayor of Los Angeles is in the same boat. She wants this fight. I think they're both responsible for not dealing with public safety in a way that doesn't give the Trump administration an opportunity to bring. I guess they brought in a National Guard. They're talking about bringing in the Marines.

[Steven Olakara]

They're talking about it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Which is insane.

[Steven Olakara]

Right.

[Matt Kibbe]

And not very federalist at all. But at the same time, I don't know if you've noticed this from the Republican point of view. A lot of pro Trump influencers on X who have been critical of Rand Paul and Thomas Massie for criticizing the Big Beautiful bill. One of the more questionable provisions in the Big Beautiful bill is a massive increase in spending on border security that now becomes an entitlement. And it's not just about border security, it's also about targeting illegals, mass deportation, as they say. So now the call on the right is we must pass the Big beautiful bill because see what's happening in la.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Cynical and manipulative.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah. In the words of one of the protesters in LA who is smelling the tear gas, he said it smells like fascism. And what you're describing, and what you might call the blatantly bloated bill, the, the, you know, that Trump is putting out there is, is sort of creating a, a sort of an ICE regime that I think is, is authoritarian in nature. And like you mentioned, the threat of Marines is, you know, this is going back to images of the Alex Garland film Civil War. I mean, that's, this is the early kind of versions of that. Yeah, I think.

[Matt Kibbe]

But I think both sides want the war.

[Steven Olakara]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. So.

[Matt Kibbe]

Because it keeps us divided.

[Steven Olakara]

The only thing. Exactly. And I think the only thing I'll add to that is, is, yeah, not only Gavin Newsom, but I think Trump also strategically chose LA because if you think about it, there are undocumented immigrants in many, many cities. Why start with the LA here? And part of it is because if you think about the emotions and associations on the political right, think California, Los Angeles, illegal immigrants, Gavin Newsom, Karen Bass. These are all words and triggers and figures that makes you on the political right say, I hate this and this is the America I want nothing to do with. And so when you spin up that kind of tribalism, you justify in your own mind that, yeah, let's throw the National Guard on, on these people. Not very conservative or small government or federalistic, to your point, but we're gonna do that anyway. So it's like the ends justify the means. So this is the ultimate example right now of the Division Industrial complex. Both sides want this war. And obviously, to your point about Gavin Newsom is positioning him for 20, 28. And the only thing that doesn't get talked about enough is how, you know, people are hurt by the system. I mean, we're all kind of victims of the Division Industrial complex. In the LA story, it's people who are there on the ground. There is an orderly process that could happen that is not happening. And what's so interesting is I don't see anyone in the legacy or establishment media highlighting this point that you've raised here, which is both sides want the war, both sides are making money off of it. And if that story were told more, then I think ordinary citizens who are not, not on the few streets of LA where this is happening. By the way, most people I hear from in LA are saying they're, you know, they're not seeing these images. So it's like really blown up. But for people who are not directly involved who see this news, they're not aware of how the game is being played. I think it's our job right now to lift the veil on what's happening and say, this is how the game is being played. So you can call out these leaders on both sides for taking you for granted as a voter and for manipulating your emotions to fuel their political pocketbooks.

[Unknown]

At Kibbe on Liberty. Freedom is a lifestyle 24 7, something you live and breathe and wear every day. If that describes you, you need the very best liberty swag in the morning market today, just like this shirt I happen to be wearing. Go to freethepeople.org kol and check out our exciting merch. You too can love liberty and look cool.

[Matt Kibbe]

You may not agree with this either. And I'm going to put my Alex Jones hat on right now just to freak you out a little bit. But it does seem, first of all, when things get violent, there's a bright line, I think, between peaceful protest and civil disobedience and violence, and both in moral terms, but more important perhaps for their end strategic terms. And when I think violence is being fomented and I think when people see those images, they're like, what the fuck's going on in la? This seems crazy. The same way I believe that there were, There were bad actors on January 6, which I was very critical of, and they lost whatever narrative they were trying to create. They lost when it got violent.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

So I think the violence needs to be denounced. And again, picking on the governor and the mayor, they're not very keen on denouncing the violent aspects of their side.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think there's an instigation of violence being used for political purposes, which, by the way, is a big part of the plot of. Andor if any of your viewers have tuned into that show. I mean, exact. I mean, very similar, I would say. Have you, have you watched the show?

[Matt Kibbe]

I have not watched that one, but I have super fans that. That have kept me generally up to speed.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, essentially the authoritarian regime there is trying to instigate violent protesters to justify an even more authoritarian crackdown on people in this one planet. And yeah, so I think it's very cynical, but I think for people who are tuning in right now, it's important to get at the root of the issue. So we're talking about the Division industrial complex. Well, one way to cut off part of the incentive for a war is by making it less profitable. And that gets into where the money flows in our political system. The reason why the military industrial complex is so effective and who I was maybe naive enough to think that Elon Musk coming in with Doge and with the kind of mandate that Trump had in this election to say that we're actually going to take out waste, fraud and abuse from the Pentagon, I believed for a moment that might be possible. Now, call me crazy. Obviously, the Defense Department's only increasing in budget. And why is that, though? It's because these military contractors have so much power and money and they can directly buy these members of Congress through lobbyist contributions. So my point in making that comparison is that similarly for the division industrial complex, we have to stop those flows of money. There are a number of reforms I think that could be helpful there. That deal with fundraising and how these politicians raise money. But when money is the most important determinant or indicator of not just whether or not you win, but whether the party gets behind you, then it should be no surprise that the Gavin Newsoms of the world or Trumps of the world are doing whatever they can to maximize for money.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. So I've become pretty red pilled on corporate influence and I think that's been a bit of a blind spot on my side. And I say that as someone that has been highly critical of crony capitalists as long as I've been in town. But the way that I saw how Big Pharma was intertwined with the government agencies that were supposedly regulating their products was just kind of shocking to me. But I wonder, and this may be where someone more progressive like you and someone more libertarian like, I can't really find common ground because I don't know how to break the back of crony capitalism without moving money and power out of Washington. Because as long as it's a game of Thrones, the big guys are going to win the game.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Because they have a seat at the table.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And it, you know, it can, you know, it could be military contractors, it could be Big Pharma. Fill in any of those blanks. It could be Palantir pushing their latest surveillance system on, on Americans. As long as we've centralized power in Washington D.C. i don't know how to stop that.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, well, I think one, there is, I think a general mindset we can have of distributing power across America and there are non governmental ways to look at doing that. Like for example, media, the political media could be more spread out across America. It shouldn't be that all these newspaper reporters who I've ever spoken with all Live in Brooklyn, New York and some of them in Washington D.C. the storytelling, the stories of America need to be told by Americans across America, not in these concentrated power regions. And then on top of that, there have been discussions about federal agencies being more distributed throughout America, even more than it is right now. And I think that's, that's really interesting. But I also think that one of the simplest things that we can do to address this problem is to ban lobbyists from funding members of Congress. And that can be done through a rules change in the House and Senate rules. So it doesn't even take legislation necessarily. And another thing you could do just through rules is by not giving up committee seats to the highest bidders right now. And I found this on the campaign trail. Many voters are shocked and Outraged to hear that committee assignments have a price tag associated with them. The more powerful the committee, like financial services, the greater amount of money you have to pay to your party to get those seats. Well, the party leadership right now can say we're not doing that. We're going to do this radical thing where we're going to appoint you to committees based on your expertise and experience as opposed to how much money you've raised from.

[Matt Kibbe]

Thomas Massie talks about this quite explicitly and he'll give you price tags for how much it costs to be on Ways and Means. The Republicans at least don't even hide it. But that is definitely happening across the board.

[Steven Olakara]

And so that is exactly. And so I think that is an example of where left and right can find a kind of post partisan.

[Matt Kibbe]

But you would need the people that rigged the game to, to unrig it and that. I don't know how we get them.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, yeah. I mean that's interesting. But let me make one more point about legalized bribery and the growth of government. Because when you have these entrenched incumbent interests that are able to write legislation. And again, this is another peeling the curtain back moment for a lot of people. When I say write legislation, I mean lobbyists were handing over legislative text to members of Congress. And part of the reason that happens is that the congressional staffers don't have time, sometimes don't have expertise to be actually writing the bill. So the lobbyists are doing it for them. Well, they're going to be expanding the size of government for those particular industries, subsidies and all kinds of things. So I think there's can be a really interesting alignment here of small government libertarians and conservatives and clean government, good government progressives who come together and say we want the kind of reforms we're talking about. Now your question is how do we actually do that? And I'm clear eyed about this and I've fought these battles and I have the scars to show for them. So I know it's not easy, but I do think it takes a combination of channeling the anti corruption fervor that's already in the populist movements in America right now, with simple ideas and language that can connect these two together. So for example, when the Democrats took over the house after the 2018 election, they introduced HR1, which was not, you know, it was like a Christmas tree of liberal good government things. And they had this somewhat convoluted public financing scheme to address money in politics. I support some of those things, but not all of those things. But I think something much more simple, like 98% of Americans would say we don't want lobbyists funding members of Congress. I think on top of that, you could say we don't want members of Congress to fundraise during business hours. You know, they're doing a day job on the taxpayer bill, on the taxpayer's dime. And in fact, I'd go even further and say that not to fundraise while Congress is in session. And so members of Congress can focus on doing their job as opposed to fundraising all the time. I think those types of ideas can both tap into the energy that's out there and is simple enough to understand that you create enough public demand. And I think we saw a parallel example with insider trading. If you go back like 15 years, very few people in the country knew that insider trading was happening on Capitol Hill. Now, it's an issue that I would say most people I talk to have heard of. There are actual bills introduced, you know, by some bipartisan efforts. It hasn't passed yet, but it's gotten much, much closer. So I think this is an example where I think raising the volume on how we can clean up government without getting rid of the Slavia's contributions can change the politics on it.

[Matt Kibbe]

I think let's find a couple common ground things where the lunar government crowd skeptical of government power, libertarians can coalesce with the good government crowd. And maybe defense is one great place. And I've been disappointed. The Democrats that I used to really respect on foreign policy have not been as consistent as they used to be. And I'll call out Bernie Sanders, who used to give speeches on the authorization of use of military force. That sounded just like Ron Paul. Yeah, it was the same speech.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

But hopefully we could agree that we should audit the Pentagon. Hopefully we could agree that we'd actually be more safe if we limited how many adventures our government could get involved in across the world. Is the progressive left still there?

[Steven Olakara]

Not nearly as much as it used to be. I come out of the tradition in Wisconsin of Russ Feingold, who was not only one of the most progressive, but also one of the most libertarian members of the U.S. senate. And he got that libertarian track record both from trying to be a budget hawk, but also for being one of the only people to oppose the Iraq war and opposed the Patriot Act. And so progressives used to be more there. Our politics have transformed, particularly over the last 10 years where now as Trump was coming into office, he was talking more about anti war positions than the Democrats were. And I Think it's part of this political realignment where the political establishments are much more. In the Democratic Party now. That includes the foreign policy establishment that has generally been more in favor of foreign adventurism and foreign military intervention. And I still think there are a few progressives out there who have. During our U.S. senate campaign, the Ukraine conflict started.

[Matt Kibbe]

Did you have Liz Cheney come out and campaign for you?

[Steven Olakara]

No, I did not and would not have let her either. I think that was one of the biggest blunders of the Kamala Harris presidential campaign.

[Matt Kibbe]

Amazing. Amazing.

[Steven Olakara]

I mean, I think. And Dick Cheney, they not only.

[Matt Kibbe]

Right.

[Steven Olakara]

You know, it's one thing for someone to, you know, you get endorsed by all kinds of people. So Dick Cheney endorses your campaign. Okay, whatever. But if you start, like, elevating that, like, as a badge of honor, as one of your core credentials, that you have the Cheney doctrine behind your Democratic campaign for president, you deserve to lose. Like, that's not a campaign I want to be a part of because I oppose that foreign policy. And so when the Ukraine conflict was starting, I was definitely the most forthright and the only one using the term anti war during that campaign and saying that we need to be really careful about escalating this into yet another major conflict. So I. And I'm not. I'm not the only one. I would say Ro Khanna, progressive Democrat from California, has been pretty good on some of these issues. And I agree, Bernie Sanders was pretty good on these issues. And, you know, anyone, whether you're a libertarian or progressive, talking about what the authorization for the use of force is, is usually someone you want to be paying attention to when it comes to foreign and military policy.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. To bring this full circle and close it out. When I first started these conversations with progressive friends, I was watching this really cool dynamic in Congress where my favorite legislators, Rand Paul, Thomas Massie, Mike Lee to a great extent as well, were finding the Ro Khannas. And, you know, Ron Wyden was there sometimes, particularly on privacy and surveillance. And you had what looked like a strange bedfellows coalition, which wasn't strange at all because they actually fundamentally agreed on that issue. And those partnerships don't seem to happen so much anymore. But maybe starting today, we can seed that again.

[Steven Olakara]

Yeah, Well, I think the Democratic Party just needs, like, culturally and politically needs to be less elite in order to get there, because as part, I'm a strong believer that culture precedes politics. So if you really want to know what's going on politically and why Democrats are and Republicans are Adopting opposite positions from what they used to 10 years ago. You got to look at it culturally and I think, you know what, what would change the progressive Democrats opinion as it comes to foreign intervention wars. And I think it's being less elite and less cozy with elite interests and reclaiming its culture as a working class party, a middle America kind of party. I think that would create the cultural space for some of these positions to change.

[Matt Kibbe]

Culture is upstream of politics, as Andrew Breitbart used to say. And you said the same thing.

[Steven Olakara]

And Breitbart, you know, you guys are like this.

[Matt Kibbe]

But final thing, and this is an opportunity to brag about some of your work. But we reconnected recently because we are both producing films and documentary documentaries and other cultural engagement. What's the project you're most proud of?

[Steven Olakara]

Well, just to set the context, a couple of years ago, a few leaders in the bridging divide, building social cohesion in America space decided that there's this movement all across the country that are having amazing conversations at the local, local level. They're building connection in America, but it's not really in the cultural conversation yet. And how do you do that at scale? And we know that storytelling and entertainment is one of the biggest levers to shape culture in America. There's a lot of research that shows that modeling pro bridge building behavior in films and TV shows and popular culture has an impact on people. They call that vicarious contact theory, where you and your own community, you might not be exposed to a bunch of different people, but you can on screen. And that still has a positive impact. And so that led to building the first ever entertainment office for this bridge building movement in America called and we call Bridge Entertainment Labs. So that's a organization, organization that I'm running. And you're right, we get to advise, work with, consult with filmmakers and both documentaries as well as narrative features. In fact, last year we were brought in to Civil War. The film studio A24 got to meet with Alex Garland and the cast, including Kirsten Dunst, and talk about what are some of the solutions to toxic polarization to avoid a second American civil war. So I was really proud of the campaign that we had coming out of that film because you had suddenly these actors talking about the importance of listening to people who are different than them, which was cool. But this year we premiered a film. We worked with the Barry Levinson and his co director Robert May on a film called Bucks County USA that premiered at Sundance, which explores the school board battles in Bucks County, Pennsylvania and how they're at each other's throats on so many issues, but how they're also striving to have conversations as well. So that film has been great. And then right now we're also consulting on a, on a Disney and Pixar film that'll come out in a couple of years. So we're excited about that too.

[Matt Kibbe]

Oh, very cool. Very cool. So if people want to find your work, give us a full minute of shameless self promotion.

[Steven Olakara]

All right, well, easiest way is just follow me on social mediatevenolikara. Bridge Entertainment labs is bridge entertainmentlabs.org and I should mention another big thing that I'm working on too is trying one I'm a senior fellow at the Schwarzenegger Institute working with Arnold Schwarzenegger on terminating polarization, which is very important in highlighting that this bridge building kind of leadership is an example of strength, that true leaders are people who can bring people together instead of vilifying and profiting on the Division industrial complex. And then I do political commentary too. Have been showing up a lot on the Hills Rising show, so you can check that show out on YouTube.

[Matt Kibbe]

Cool. Robbie Suave has been on this show.

[Steven Olakara]

A number of times. Yeah, I've enjoyed sparring with him. He's been a lot of fun to talk with.

[Matt Kibbe]

Us libertarians were so irascible, but we did a full hour without killing each other.

[Steven Olakara]

Yes, we did. We did.

[Matt Kibbe]

Let that be example for everybody else.

[Steven Olakara]

Thank you. Honored to be here.

[Matt Kibbe]

Thank you. Thanks for watching. If you liked the conversation, make sure.

[Unknown]

To like the video, subscribe and also ring the bell for notifications. And if you want to know more about Free the people, go to freethepeople.org.