Podcast Summary: Kibbe on Liberty – Ep 337 | The Deep State Is a Deadly Virus ft. Debbie Lerman
Introduction
In Episode 337 of "Kibbe on Liberty," hosted by Matt Kibbe from the Blaze Podcast Network, libertarian author and economist Matt Kibbe engages in a profound conversation with Debbie Lerman, the author of “The Deep State Goes Viral.” Released on June 18, 2025, this episode delves into the intricate collusion between big government and big business, the emergence of a censorship industrial complex, and the utilization of emergencies as tools to solidify deep state control.
Debbie Lerman’s Thesis: COVID-19 as a National Security Event
Debbie Lerman presents a compelling thesis that challenges the mainstream narrative surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic. According to Lerman, “The COVID event was not a public health event. It was a national security event run on a global scale by a global conglomerate,” which she terms the Global Biodefense Public-Private Partnership (Lerman, [03:44]). This conglomerate encompasses military and intelligence agencies from NATO and allied nations, major pharmaceutical and consulting firms, Silicon Valley, and both traditional and digital media outlets. Lerman argues that this alliance aims to amass unparalleled power, control, and wealth.
Key Quote:
“The COVID event was not a public health event. It was a national security event run on a global scale by a global conglomerate.” – Debbie Lerman [03:44]
Red Pill Moments: Awakening to Institutional Perversions
Both Matt Kibbe and Debbie Lerman recount their "red pill" moments—realizations that exposed the deep-seated corruption and collusion within powerful institutions. Kibbe shares his early skepticism about lockdowns and their economic repercussions, noting, “I thought there was no public health benefit to that. It was all harm, no good” ([02:48]). Lerman describes her critical turning point upon recognizing mainstream liberal voices, like Paul Krugman, opposing lockdown measures ([08:26]).
Key Quote:
“If everybody's lying, everybody I trust... then something is really, really, really wrong.” – Debbie Lerman [08:00]
Historical Context: From Operation Paperclip to Modern Biodefense
The conversation traces the origins of biodefense research post-World War II, highlighting Operation Paperclip, where Nazi scientists were integrated into U.S. biodefense programs ([13:12]). Lerman emphasizes the ongoing use of bioweapons across various conflicts, despite international moratoriums, pointing out the persistent loopholes that allow continued development and deployment ([13:47]).
Key Quote:
“We imported a bunch of Nazi scientists... Who were working on what could go wrong.” – Matt Kibbe [13:47]
The Five Eyes Alliance and Global Coordination
One of the pivotal topics is the Five Eyes intelligence alliance comprising the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Lerman explains how this alliance facilitates synchronized global responses to biothreats, as evidenced during the COVID-19 pandemic ([31:25]). This coordination extends to censorship efforts and the suppression of dissenting medical opinions, such as the promotion of vaccines over treatments like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.
Key Quote:
“Why would Australia and the United States be doing the exact same thing at the same time?” – Debbie Lerman [31:25]
Censorship Industrial Complex: A Non-Partisan Threat
Lerman and Kibbe discuss how the censorship industrial complex, originally intended to combat misinformation related to terrorism, has been repurposed to suppress a wide range of dissenting voices under the guise of public health ([44:48]). They argue that this machinery operates beyond partisan politics, maintaining a continuous state of control irrespective of the administration in power.
Key Quote:
“It's a machine. So. And I'm not trying to be critical or anything. [...] it's a continuum running through.” – Debbie Lerman [36:46]
Legal Mechanisms of Control: PREP Act and States of Emergency
A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the PREP Act and the strategic use of states of emergency to bypass legal and regulatory frameworks. Lerman details how the PREP Act allows for the unregulated distribution of medical countermeasures, labeling them as military operations rather than public health initiatives ([85:45]).
Key Quote:
“So what's the alternative? First understanding what is happening.” – Matt Kibbe [39:51]
Vaccine Passports and Surveillance: The Next Frontier
Lerman identifies vaccine passports as a critical tool for global surveillance and control, orchestrated by entities like the WHO and tech companies. She warns that these measures are precursors to more invasive control mechanisms, aligning with the broader goals of the global biodefense conglomerate ([63:16]).
Key Quote:
“Vaccine passports for me is where it's at. And that's a much better entryway into what's happening now.” – Debbie Lerman [65:11]
Technological Control vs. Libertarian Optimism
The dialogue touches upon the dual nature of technology as both a liberating force and a means of authoritarian control. While acknowledging the potential of decentralized technologies like blockchain, Lerman remains skeptical about their effectiveness against the deeply entrenched surveillance systems ([77:50]).
Key Quote:
“It's all the money is laundered again and again and again.” – Matt Kibbe [18:48]
Brownstone and Independent Journalism: Building a Resistance Narrative
Debbie Lerman shares her journey with Brownstone, an independent media platform that became instrumental in amplifying her research and writings. Her collaboration with Jeffrey Tucker at Brownstone facilitated the publication of her critical analyses, including her first exposure to institutional propaganda through Deborah Birx's “Silent Invasion” ([88:39]).
Key Quote:
“I knew that Deborah Birx was not a public health operator, that she had come from someplace else, which I then realized was the National Security Council.” – Debbie Lerman [91:36]
Conclusion: Embracing the Black Pill to Ignite Change
Both hosts acknowledge the daunting nature of the challenges posed by the deep state and the censorship industrial complex. Lerman advocates for a collective awakening—what she terms the "black pill"—to resist and dismantle the intertwined powers of government and corporations. They emphasize the necessity of transcending partisan divisions to address the systemic threats to liberty and autonomy.
Final Quote:
“We cannot vote our way out of this.” – Matt Kibbe [39:51]
Additional Resources
- Book Mentioned: The Deep State Goes Viral by Debbie Lerman
- Organizations: freethepeople.org
- Related Works:
- Wuhan Cover Up by Bobby Kennedy
- Silent Invasion by Deborah Birx
Connect with Debbie Lerman:
- Substack: Debbie Lerman’s Substack (Insert actual link)
- Amazon: The Deep State Goes Viral on Amazon (Insert actual link)
Note: This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from Episode 337 of "Kibbe on Liberty." For a comprehensive understanding, listeners are encouraged to tune into the full episode.