Ep 339 | Steve Forbes Grades Trump's First Four Months | Guest: Steve Forbes

Summary

Kibbe on Liberty - Episode 339 Summary

Title: Steve Forbes Grades Trump's First Four Months
Host: Matt Kibbe
Guest: Steve Forbes
Release Date: July 2, 2025

In Episode 339 of Kibbe on Liberty, host Matt Kibbe welcomes economist and libertarian thinker Steve Forbes to evaluate the Trump administration's economic performance during its first four months. The conversation delves into various facets of economic policy, including deregulation, tax reforms, tariffs, federal spending, healthcare, and energy policy. Below is a detailed summary of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn from the episode.

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1. Economic Resilience and Deregulation

Steve Forbes begins by commending the Trump administration's efforts in fostering economic resilience despite regulatory burdens.

Steve Forbes (02:35): "The economy has great resilience despite all the abuses we put on it. And what is needed, people are ready to go ahead is what are the rules of the road."

He highlights the administration's focus on attacking regulations, which he equates to a form of taxation. Forbes points out the disproportionate impact of regulations on manufacturing, citing that large manufacturers face approximately $25,000 in regulatory costs per employee compared to $5,000 in taxes.

Steve Forbes (03:10): "Regulations cost about $25,000 per employee versus $5,000 of taxes."

Forbes underscores the necessity of deregulation to enhance manufacturing competitiveness, especially against countries like China, which do not impose similar regulatory costs.

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2. Tax Policy and the Big Beautiful Bill

The discussion shifts to tax reforms encapsulated in what's referred to as the "Big Beautiful Bill." Forbes expresses skepticism about the bill's capacity to stimulate significant economic growth due to its reliance on extending existing tax rates without introducing substantial changes.

Steve Forbes (07:15): "Because that's existing policy with the tariffs. And tariff is another word for tax... you need to have more juice in there. I want reductions in personal tax rates, reductions in the corporate tax."

Forbes advocates for deeper tax cuts, particularly in personal and corporate tax rates, to foster investment and entrepreneurship. He criticizes the bill for attempting to balance tax reductions with potential new taxes, such as taxing remittances, which he deems counterproductive.

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3. Tariffs and Trade Negotiations

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the administration's tariff policy. Forbes categorizes tariffs as new forms of taxation that burden American consumers and impede economic growth.

Steve Forbes (08:43): "The tax burden is going up... You need to debate it."

He draws parallels to historical instances, such as the National Recovery Administration of the 1930s, to caution against the long-term implications of imposing tariffs without congressional approval. Forbes predicts that the Supreme Court may eventually strike down the 10% tariff as unconstitutional.

Steve Forbes (09:50): "I'm hoping the Supreme Court saved us from these tariffs and we get back to the pro-growth stuff."

Forbes advocates for resolving tariffs through genuine trade negotiations rather than using them as leverage, emphasizing the need for zero tariffs to establish a true free trade area.

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4. Federal Spending and Fiscal Responsibility

Addressing federal spending, Forbes references Milton Friedman's viewpoint that taxation rates should align with spending levels. He criticizes the administration for lacking spending restraint despite promises.

Steve Forbes (16:24): "If you reduce two of the brackets from 22 and 24% to 15, you take care of it."

Forbes acknowledges minor government efficiency cuts but stresses the importance of substantial reductions in federal spending to maintain a balanced budget. He emphasizes that sustainable fiscal policies are crucial for economic prosperity.

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5. Health Care and Medicaid Reform

Forbes critiques the expansion of Medicaid under Obamacare, labeling it the most expensive and least effective health insurance program globally. He calls for Medicaid reforms to return control to the states, advocating for block grants that allow states to experiment with welfare reforms.

Steve Forbes (20:08): "Medicaid was originally designed to help people with disabilities... doctors don't like."

He recommends transforming healthcare into a consumer-driven market, akin to education savings accounts, where individuals have more control over their healthcare expenditures.

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6. Energy Policy and Deregulation

The conversation touches on energy policy, where Forbes supports deregulation as a means to reduce dependence on foreign energy sources. He criticizes existing regulations, such as the Jones Act, which hinder the production of American-made ships necessary for liquefied natural gas (LNG) exports.

Steve Forbes (22:25): "Get rid of the Jones Act, we'll start having yards again that can turn out ships."

Forbes argues that deregulation in the energy sector would not only foster domestic production but also enhance national security by reducing reliance on foreign energy imports.

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7. Recommendations to President Trump

In the concluding segment, Forbes provides strategic advice to President Trump on reinforcing economic growth:

1. Resolve Tariff Issues: Focus on reaching fair trade agreements without implementing punitive tariffs.
2. Strengthen Tax Cuts: Implement substantial reductions in income and corporate tax rates to stimulate investment.
3. Reform the Federal Reserve: Acknowledge and address the Federal Reserve's flawed understanding of inflation, advocating for a stable currency system.
4. Continue Deregulation: Persist in removing unnecessary regulations to boost productivity and competitiveness.

Steve Forbes (25:17): "Strengthen your tax cut bill big time... Continue on deregulation which is almost, almost more important than spending cuts."

He emphasizes the importance of long-term planning, particularly for private accounts in Social Security, to secure the retirement future of younger generations.

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Conclusion

The episode presents a critical evaluation of the Trump administration's initial economic policies from a libertarian perspective. Steve Forbes underscores the importance of deregulation, substantial tax cuts, responsible fiscal management, healthcare reform, and sensible energy policies to foster a resilient and prosperous American economy. The discussion encapsulates a call for pragmatic and sustainable economic strategies that prioritize individual freedom and market efficiency over governmental intervention.

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Notable Quotes:

• Steve Forbes (02:35): "The economy has great resilience despite all the abuses we put on it."
• Steve Forbes (07:15): "I see that as something still in the making."
• Steve Forbes (08:43): "The tax burden is going up... You need to debate it."
• Steve Forbes (16:24): "If you reduce two of the brackets from 22 and 24% to 15, you take care of it."
• Steve Forbes (20:08): "Medicaid was originally designed to help people with disabilities... doctors don't like."
• Steve Forbes (22:25): "Get rid of the Jones Act, we'll start having yards again that can turn out ships."
• Steve Forbes (25:17): "Strengthen your tax cut bill big time... Continue on deregulation which is almost, almost more important than spending cuts."

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the conversation between Matt Kibbe and Steve Forbes, providing valuable insights into the economic discourse surrounding the Trump administration's policies.

Transcript

[Matt Kibbe]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. I'm talking to my old friend Steve Forbes about the Trump administration's economic scorecard in the first four months, the good, the bad, the ugly, and what we need to do to get America back on track. Check it out. Welcome to Kibby on Liberty. Steve, how's it going?

[Steve Forbes]

Better than the world.

[Matt Kibbe]

Better than the world.

[Steve Forbes]

So it's nice to be here among people who are not enamored with government.

[Matt Kibbe]

I feel like you may be like original gangster freedom fest guy. Like, have you ever missed one as far as you remember?

[Steve Forbes]

I have missed some in the past, either conflicts or illness, and I missed the first couple of them. But when I saw the agenda for one, I decided, hey, there's some interesting stuff here.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Steve Forbes]

And the government hasn't raided it yet. So subversive ideas can be mouth and you don't have to look over your shoulder.

[Matt Kibbe]

There is something satisfying gathering with friends because I live in Washington D.C. so I'm surrounded by hostile forces, big government forces. So it feels good to be here.

[Steve Forbes]

You're like a missionary among the heathens.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

So I was thinking back to 96 and 2000 and the Steve Ford Forbes for President agenda. The gold standard, if you will, of sort of limited government free market policies, from fundamental tax reform to dealing with inflation by getting back to the gold standard and an uncorrupted currency to school choice. I wonder, I feel like you're the right person to grade the first four months of of the Trump administration on economic policy, tax policy, spending policy, the T word, tariffs. What's your general take first, like, how is the economy doing?

[Steve Forbes]

The economy has great resilience despite all the abuses we put on it. And what is needed, people are ready to go ahead is what are the rules of the road. And so in terms of what the Trump administration is doing, one of the most important things which is not glamorous is attacking regulations. As you know, regulations are a form of taxation and they've imposed a huge burden on the economy, especially in recent years. The previous administration just went bonkers on it. And one of the targets has been manufacturing for 20 years. Number I saw was over 1/3 2,400 large major regulations have been imposed on manufacturing, as somebody pointed out, as if factories are these dark satanic mills of the days of old. No, it's all about control and manipulation. And that's why, for example, thanks to regulation, we have dishwashers that can't wash dishes in less than a day. And why they want to make air conditions unable to cool anymore and making you buy EVs, banning gas stoves, all the things in modern life that you might like. There again. And so it's been calculated, just talking about manufacturing, that at a small, typical, large, typical manufacturer regulations cost about $25,000 per employee versus $5,000 of taxes. Ponder that for a moment. And for smaller manufacturers, it can be $50,000 per employee versus 5,000 in taxes. So you look at that and then you look at our friends in China. There's no way that they have regulations that are costing their manufacturing employees $50,000 a year. So we've put a 25, $50,000 burden on our own manufacturing. It's not if we can't manufacture. As we know, a lot of foreign manufacturing, auto manufacturers went south starting in the 80s and guess what? They make great cars. They even export cars with a foreign name plate coming from the United States of America. So deregulation is critical and I hope they relentlessly pursue that. They've got to reduce taxes. We'll see what happens in the big beautiful bill. The bill will pass. The question is what will be in it. What I wish they'd add to it, it is. I know there's going to be a lot of stuff in there, so I'm not going to be happy with some of it like taxing remittances and junk like that. But why not reduce the capital gains tax? That's good for investment, entrepreneurship and it instantly raises revenues for those who worry about government revenue. And why not reduce individual income tax rates? Our friends in the blue states worry about. They don't have a deduction for taxes, state and local taxes. Well, if you reduce two of the brackets from 22 and 24% to 15, you take care of it. So you have a lower, lower rates, which is good for getting ahead. And you also deal with the problems of deductions. So in terms of the tax thing, I see that as something still in the making. And in terms of what I worry about, that gets attention from time to time is the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve does not understand inflation. There are two kinds of inflation. One is what you might call non monetary, which is prices changing because of say a storm or an earthquake or a lockdown, which artificially raises prices. You put say a 10% sales tax on and $100 item suddenly becomes 110. That's not traditional inflation. That is just imposed costs by either weather factors or the government. And the Fed can't do anything about those. But traditional inflation, which is reducing the value of the dollar that the Fed can deal with. But name me one central banker in the world that talks about stable currencies. Money measures value like a clock measures time. We all know fixed weights and measures are great for markets. If you don't have. With money, you get the kind of slowdowns, distortions that we have today.

[Matt Kibbe]

So a couple questions on that. The substance of the tax bill. The tax provisions in the big beautiful bill, there's some new bells and whistles, but fundamentally it's an extension of the 2017 taxes because they expire under the reconciliation rules that they were playing with. As important as it is to not raise taxes by not extending the existing tax rates, my sense is that that doesn't give us a growth bump.

[Steve Forbes]

No, because that's a, that's existing policy with the tariffs. And tariff is another word for tax, excise tax, sales tax, whatever name you want to give to it, it is a tax. As Warren Buffett said, the toothpairy does not pay that tax.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Steve Forbes]

And so you need, you need, especially if the president wants this 10% base tariff, you need a big, not beautiful tax cut, but a super beautiful tax bill tax cut. And this is what I worry about. Got to renew 2017. We don't need a 3 to $5,000 tax increase on families, but also we got to have more juice in there. The economy is going to retain its mojo. That's why, again, I want reductions in personal tax rates, reductions in the corporate tax. I'd like to eliminate it, but because, as you know, businesses are tax collectors. Again, it doesn't come from the clouds. So, yes, they've got. I'm a little annoyed that our friends in Congress don't get that they have to do something. They have to supersize. You know, we go to the fast food, but they got a supersize exercise. This tax cut.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Ren's Paul has been quite lonely being a voice of opposition to the Trump tariff paradigm. And they want it both ways. They're like, this is not a tax increase. It's not a tax on consumers. But they claim that there'll be all this magic revenue that comes in to offset.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, there's one of the, one of the dangers of having a general tariff, it's in effect, a new tax. And so that's a tax burden on the American people. And when politicians say, oh, we'll put in this tax, but we'll reduce other taxes, clutch onto your wallet because it's soon going to be empty. Yeah, the tax burden is going up. I live in New Jersey, decades ago they imposed an income tax under the guise of reducing our super high property taxes. Well, today we have the highest property taxes for 40 years later in the country and a dreadful state income tax which maxes out at almost 11%. So that's a new tax and that should be debated. And I do think though that this is where Trump sometimes it's good to be lucky even if you don't realize it because I think the Supreme Court will throw out the 10% tariff. That is a permanent tax. It's not an emergency. And so therefore Congress can pass tax increases, not presidents, by signing an executive order. Back in the 1930s we had this thing called the National Recovery Administration which was the most status fascistic piece of legislation we've ever had in our history where every industry was controlled in prices and wages and working how you set up your company and everything. Eventually the Supreme Court threw it out unanimously and Roosevelt was furious, tried to pack the court, but it saved his presidency because the economy was going to do even worse under him than Hoover. And the Supreme Court saved him. Well, what I'm hoping happens here is the Supreme Court saved us from these tariffs and we get back to the pro growth stuff. Yeah, if you want a tariff, get it through Congress. Good luck with that.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, so this sort of echoes of the sales tax versus flat tax debate that we used to have because the President has Trump eliminating the income tax and the IRS in exchange for a tariff based system. Those numbers don't actually add up.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, that gets to a rather painful for them truth and that is yes, in the 1800s we had tariffs, but we didn't have the income tax. We, we didn't have the payroll taxes, we didn't have the corporate tax and a lot of the other stuff they've put on since. Even in 1929, Matt, when we had the most sophisticated economy in the world, the Federal government was 3% of GDP. State government's about 10 today. Pick a number. 35, 36 when you add it up. And so it's a totally different environment now. If we were starting all over, maybe you could make a case. But again, if something has been around like the regime we have today to try to change it overnight and not think there's going to be massive disruptions. No, that's not the way the real world works. And they should have learned from COVID When you have the lockdowns, it's not like turning the light switch on or off. You've disrupted very sophisticated things around the world. And so people go on and do other things things. Companies may pull up stakes. Some country may be still in the COVID mode, another one, Sweden may be in the non Covid. So all the synchronization you had in the past gets thrown out and it takes time to put it back together again.

[Matt Kibbe]

So I've come up with a compromise and I got Senator Rand Paul to agree to this compromise. If we could return to government as a percentage of GDP, that was true under President McKinnon McKinley, I think you would come on board and say, well, okay, we can, we can accept some tariffs.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, but try getting back to that might be hard. McKinley era. Especially when they say, oh, that means Social Security goes out the window, your Medicare goes out the window and I'll be entitled to. One of the things is that Republicans haven't learned how to navigate this. You can't come across as trying to take something away. That's when, when I ran, I always said for younger people, you bring in a new system, don't scare people who are on it, you give them a choice. But for younger people, they have a new system where instead of tax on society, you're creating capital. When you put money aside for your future retirement and you get to choose the age at which you wish to retire.

[Matt Kibbe]

Instead of Washington politicians, we've lost that sort of obvious solution of freeing young people from just debt and an unsecure retirement future. Nobody really talks about that within the GOP anymore.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, I think they have to relearn how you fight these things. You go on offense. Just take this whole broujah about Medicaid. Why should somebody who's healthy, in his 20s and 30s not work a terrible 20 hours a week to qualify for benefits, food stamps and things like that. People say, yeah you should, you're getting a freebie. And as you know, Medicaid was originally designed to help people with disabilities, help poor mothers and the like. And they expanded it under Obamacare with the notion of having a government run system. So let's get back to basics. But by the way, on Medicaid, it's the most expensive health insurance program in the world with the most dreadful outcomes in the world doctors don't like. So how can you spend all that money and have something that is so dysfunctional?

[Matt Kibbe]

You know, it was just a couple years ago when every Republican said they wanted to fight fully repeal Obamacare. The core of which there were other elements obviously, but the core of which was this dramatic expansion in Medicaid that undermined the care for the most vulnerable population that you're talking about. And now you can count on maybe two hands the number of Republicans that are willing to say we need to fully repeal the expansion under Obamacare. They just don't want to do it.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, that gets to another thing. All of this green stuff, they got to get that expunged now because we've seen when something is around for a while, good luck in getting rid of it.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah, you can change it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Ethanol.

[Steve Forbes]

Good luck in getting rid of that. As Ronald Reagan said, the closest thing to immortality is a government program. And so the sooner and I hope in the big beautiful bill when they finally pass it, they do really tear out all of these green new tax credits and spending and things like that. And they end up destroying jobs because they're wasting resources. We get nothing out of it. Be one thing, oh, they're spending too much to give us something. We're spending too much and getting negative return.

[Matt Kibbe]

Thank you for joining me today on.

[Unnamed Participant]

Kibbe on Liberty and for being part of our fiercely independent audience. Every week my organization Free the People partners with BlazeTV to bring you this show. My guests bring smart perspectives on everything from current events to timeless philosophical debates. If you like what you hear, go to freethepeople.org kol and support Kibbe on Liberty so we can continue to produce these honest conversations with interesting people. Now let's get back to it.

[Matt Kibbe]

The let's talk about the spending in the big beautiful bill and more importantly, the lack of spending restraint in the big beautiful bill. I think it's Milton Friedman who argues that the ultimate rate of taxation is the rate of spending.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, he made and you're right, that shows how far Euro goes his observation. But he said he'd rather have a 1 trillion dollar federal budget that was grossly out of balance. So 800 billion of red ink and a $2 trillion budget that is balanced. Yes, because the 2 trillion is 2 trillion resources from free people. 1 trillion one taking resources from the people. So how you finance it is one thing, but it's taking resources reduce taking resources away from free people.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

So Rand Paul and Thomas Massie and just a handful of others have been pushing back on the spending provisions in the big beautiful bill because we just didn't do the things we were promising. The good news is the House finally did some nominal doge department of government efficiency cuts. I think it was about 9 billion which of course is a drop in the bucket of a But at least.

[Steve Forbes]

It'S a start and sets a precedent. And the key thing that's coming up is this 9.2 billion bill to rescind that spending. And even though the nominal dollars are low, it does affect real spending, not baseline spending. All the games they play with, those are real dollars. We'll see if the GOP can pass that. And if they pass the small one, then you can go for bigger things. Especially if you have a more prosperous economy. Then the fear factor, oh, I'm going to lose something or if something happens, I'm not going to have any safety nets dissipates. When you have a prosperous economy, then you can make, if you have the backbone to do it, make the big start making big moves. And for instance, in health care, we should be doing in health care what we're doing in education. In education you have education savings accounts, which is beautiful in the sense that the parents control the money. Not a bureaucracy, you control it. Mom and dad in health care we need the more the equivalent where you control the spending. And with companies now having high deductible plans where you're paying more out of pocket than you ever did before, you want to know what it's going to cost. And so that's the beginnings of a consumer market. That's the only way you save health care. It's insane. Today we have the agency overseeing Medicare and Medicaid issuing 11,000 pages of rules regs each year, which a free market would do and do flexibly, sensibly, adjusting to circumstance that you can never do with 11,000 pages of, you know, I don't even get into it.

[Matt Kibbe]

One of the upsides of the lockdowns, and particularly what they did to children in schools is that parents for the first time not only noticed how, how much the system didn't care care about their kids, it was about the teachers, not the kids. And then they got a chance to look at their curriculum through zoom school. And they have ignited a revolution, a parent based revolution, as my friend Corey DeAngelis would say. And universal school choice is passing in state after state. Apparently there's an element in the big beautiful bill on this. But this is not primarily a federal thing, it's a state thing. So that that is happening and it's a, it's a model that could be applied to health care and all sorts of things.

[Steve Forbes]

Absolutely. And one of the things they should do with Medicaid is block grant the money to the states. So you have what happened in the 90s, a state like Wisconsin, which led the way in welfare reform. Liberal state like Wisconsin set the template for federal welfare reform. Work requirements among them and it works. And so you want to have states seeing what works and what doesn't work. And again, with the patients having more say about where the money goes. Then you get a system where the provider and the customer, the patient are directly connected instead of today where it's all third party and a hospital knows its revenue is dependent not on satisfying you, but on how well they negotiate with Medicare, Medicaid, private insurers and the like. And the proof of it is the lousiest mat. Lousiest motel in America wouldn't dare put you in a room with another guest, a sick guest with a curtain in between.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yes, yes.

[Matt Kibbe]

If you want to understand the health care system, spend a couple days in that room and it's a wake up call. So back to deregulation, I think, and you could say this of the first Trump administration, one of the things they did well, they were able to do is to tear out red tape. Now, of course, the Biden administration came back and doubled down on that.

[Steve Forbes]

But that's an important point you make. Deregulation, which has no glamour to it whatsoever. No one would have associated with Donald Trump. They actually did serious deregulation. They actually did try to remove rules from the rule book.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yes.

[Steve Forbes]

And so suddenly we had precedence. This can be done. This should be done.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And by all accounts, they're doing it again. And I think one of the really optimistic aspects is what they're doing on energy policy. Like if you actually want America to be less dependent on foreign energy, you want us to have affordable energy, you might make it more legal to produce energy in this country.

[Steve Forbes]

Well, that's one of the most bizarre things, was when Biden or whoever was manipulating him banned the export of liquify natural gas, which set us back several years. And those worried about national security, China is an energy importer. And whether it's directly or indirectly they will be importing our natural gas for supplying it. The Europeans are desperate to have an alternative to Putin for their energy. And but then we got to get away from. They have a requirement in the bill, I think that by 2030 1% of LNG must be in American made ships. We can't make those ships today thanks to the Jones Act. And so take that out and you start loosening things up here. Get rid of the Jones act, we'll start having yards again that can turn out ships. Right now, if you're comparing one ship model with another, cost four to five times to do it in an American yard, then in a Korean or Japanese yard.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

There's, there's so many things like the Jones act that I wish the Trump administration would go after first. Because the, the, the logic of tariffs in their mind is that we're, you know, we're getting screwed by our competitors. And if we just impose tariffs, we can rebuild America's manufacturing base. That's not going to work. But what could work is freeing them up.

[Steve Forbes]

Why you rebuild the manufacturing base is lower taxation, which they've made some steps on. They got to do more and deregulation so they actually can spend time not just turning out stuff, but putting in practice the learning curve. So that's why I forget what organization said, wait two years, you can buy a dishwasher again, that can do it in an hour. And instead when you have all these regs, manufacturers have to try to comport to the regs, which hurts productivity. And so instead of getting ever and ever better and cheaper household products equipment, we end up going backwards, more expensive. And the washing machine today should be able to do it in 30 minutes. Probably cost $500. Look at flat spot screen TVs. The prices they were 20 years ago, probably 20,000. And what you can get in the store today for a few hundred dollars.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

The power. So I know you got a bunch of other stuff you have to do. My last question is, you have 10 minutes with President Trump and it's just you, it's not the handlers. And he wants to know where he should be doing on the economy. What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? What do you tell the president.

[Steve Forbes]

Recognizing you'll never get invited to play golf with him again. You should go forward, get this tariff thing resolved. Trade negotiations are tough. They take time. But pursue them like you're doing with deregulation. Not glamorous. It takes time. But do it so we don't have these extra cost disruptions there. That would be a huge benefit. Strengthen your tax cut bill big time. How about a flat tax? But we'll let's intermediate step. Let's go for big cuts in the income tax rates. That's the key thing, tax rates. And on the Federal Reserve recognize they have a broken model which believes that prosperity cause inflation and they're going to be an enemy of yours. Not by design, but by the way they operate. And maybe you don't say it in public, but just look at the gold price, see what they're actually doing, whether they know what they're doing or not. So those would be three key things. And then say, continue on deregulation which is almost, almost more important than spending cuts in terms of allowing the production of resources.

[Matt Kibbe]

So do you think, final question when it comes to tariffs and by the.

[Steve Forbes]

Way, plan for the long term for private accounts for your young people.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yes.

[Steve Forbes]

In Social Security.

[Matt Kibbe]

So when it comes to tariffs, there seems to be different wings in the Trump camp. Some who actually believe that we can tariff our way back to prosperity. So the ideological wing, well, we tried that in 1929.

[Steve Forbes]

It didn't work out so well.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, it didn't work out at all as I recall.

[Steve Forbes]

Yeah, 25% unemployment is not a sign of success.

[Matt Kibbe]

But then there's other people that believe that, that the tariff thing is the art of the deal and that he's using potential tariffs as a cudgel to bring potential trading partners back to the table and to reduce tariffs. Do you, do you sit in one camp or the other in terms of where the Trump administration is actually coming from?

[Steve Forbes]

Well, it'll get them to the table but then you have to know what they ask is, and again, it's not just tariffs, it's all the non tariff barriers. And stop then talking about a 10% permanent tariff. That to me is a contradiction to zero tariffs. Vietnam, for example, critical country for us for a whole host of reasons gets hit with a 46% tariff in advance for the moment, but hanging over. And the Vietnamese have indicated we'll go for zero. You get rid of all your tariffs on us, we get rid of all your 00, which Trump as president of pass has indicated he's in favor of. Take him up on it and say tomorrow zip across the board. And that would be set a great example for others so we can have a true free trade area. But they, I don't know the state of negotiations, but I don't think they're there yet with the Vietnamese. I haven't heard any rumors of a Vietnamese trade deal yet. They're desperate for it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, thank, thank you, Steve. I know you gotta get going.

[Steve Forbes]

Thank you, Matt. Keep up the good fight.

[Unnamed Participant]

Thanks for watching. If you liked the conversation, make make sure to like the video, subscribe and also ring the bell for notifications. And if you want to know more about Free the people, go to freethepeople.org.