Ep 341 | Supporting Female Athletes Shouldn’t Be Controversial | Guest: Jennifer Sey

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 341 | Supporting Female Athletes Shouldn’t Be Controversial | Guest: Jennifer Sey

Introduction

In Episode 341 of Kibbe on Liberty, host Matt Kibbe welcomes Jennifer Sey, the founder of XXXY Athletics, to discuss her athletic brand and her steadfast belief that “boys are different than girls.” Filmed live at Freedom Fest on July 23, 2025, this episode delves into the controversies surrounding gender distinctions in sports and the broader cultural implications.

Defending Gender Differences in Athletics

Jennifer Sey introduces her brand, XXXY Athletics, which champions the idea that biological differences between boys and girls should be respected, especially in sports. She states, “[...] boys cannot become girls. I know that’s hard to wrap your head around the thing we all believed 10 years ago” ([01:15]).

Sey emphasizes that while 80% of people agree with her stance, the remaining 20% have significant influence over institutions like media and sports governing bodies. “80% of people do agree with us on those very simple facts. And yet the 20% that does not have captured all of the institutions” ([01:15]).

The Riley Gaines Case Study

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Riley Gaines, a swimmer at the University of Kentucky who transitioned from male to female. Jennifer recounts Riley’s experiences, highlighting the challenges she faced, such as being removed from her running club and enduring online harassment. “[...] she was kicked out of her running club. She was told not to wear their jersey. The day before the marathon, she was stalked online” ([02:49]).

Matt questions the fairness of Riley’s treatment during competitions. “[...] when two people tie that some bureaucrat says, well, you get the prize?” ([11:52]). Jennifer clarifies NCAA rules, indicating that typically both athletes would share the podium, suggesting that Riley’s situation was handled improperly ([12:04]).

Simone Biles Controversy

The conversation shifts to Simone Biles, the renowned gymnast, and her involvement in the Riley Gaines incident. Jennifer explains that while Biles is celebrated for her athletic prowess—“she has seven Olympic medals” ([15:38])—her response to Riley Gaines was problematic. Biles publicly criticized Riley, calling her a “murderer” and a “fascist” for supporting traditional gender categories in sports ([17:15]).

Jennifer believes Biles’ actions were influenced by external pressures from the “woke trans mob,” leading to backlash from both sides and forcing Biles' sponsors to issue a poor apology ([16:56]). This incident, according to Jennifer, serves as a cultural tipping point that highlights the deep divisions over gender identity in sports.

Marketing and Branding Strategies of XXXY Athletics

Jennifer details the progression of her brand, now a year and a few months old, which has already garnered significant media attention. “[...] it’s doing exactly what I wanted it to do, which is it gives people who are maybe a little afraid to speak out in their hometown at their daughter’s soccer game. It gives them a way to do it” ([06:08]).

She explains that XXXY Athletics uses apparel to provoke conversations and provide a sense of community for like-minded individuals. The brand’s flagship product, a high-quality T-shirt with the slogan “Real girls rock. Real women rock,” serves as a unifying statement for supporters ([37:31]).

Guerrilla Marketing and Community Building

Drawing parallels to classic brands like Levi’s, Jennifer emphasizes the importance of authenticity and community in marketing. She shares her experience at a Spartan Race, where attendees proudly wore XXXY Athletics gear, reflecting the brand’s growing influence. “[...] people want to wear the logo to say what they believe. My friend Jamie Reed, who was a whistleblower [...], she saw people wearing our T-shirt, and she knew she had friends there” ([35:29]).

Matt adds that such grassroots interactions are crucial for building a loyal customer base. The brand’s presence at events traditionally not associated with libertarian or conservative thought, like music festivals and obstacle races, demonstrates its expanding reach ([36:40]).

Cultural Impact and Future Plans

Jennifer aspires for XXXY Athletics to become a mainstream athletic brand that competes with giants like Nike and Lululemon. She emphasizes that the brand is not just a business but a movement aimed at restoring what she calls “common sense” in gender distinctions. “[...] it's becoming a uniform of common sense” ([35:27]).

Looking ahead, Jennifer plans to continue participating in relevant sporting events and expand the brand’s influence through strategic marketing. She believes that as more people wear XXXY Athletics apparel, the cultural conversation will shift towards broader acceptance of her stance on gender differences. “I want to influence the cultural conversation. I want to make it cool to stand up and say girls and women deserve their own sports and spaces” ([37:02]).

Conclusion

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Matt and Jennifer, underscoring the importance of dialogue and community in advancing their shared values. Jennifer reiterates the significance of maintaining spaces where biological women can compete and feel safe, advocating for third categories where necessary. “[...] girls and women need to feel comfortable and safe. I mean, that's my priority, certainly” ([27:43]).

This engaging and thought-provoking episode of Kibbe on Liberty offers listeners a deep dive into the contentious debate over gender in sports, the strategies behind building a like-minded community, and the broader implications for cultural change.

Notable Quotes:

• Jennifer Sey on societal agreement: “80% of people do agree with us on those very simple facts. And yet the 20% that does not has captured all of the institutions” ([01:15]).

• On Riley Gaines’ harassment: “She was kicked out of her running club. She was told not to wear their jersey” ([02:49]).

• Discussing cultural tipping points: “I think that she humiliation of women. I really do think that's part of it” ([13:06]).

• On brand mission: “We want to make high quality products. It’s made ethically. We don’t make anything in China” ([35:33]).

• Jennifer’s vision: “I want to influence the cultural conversation. I want to make it cool to stand up and say girls and women deserve their own sports and spaces” ([37:02]).

Listen to the full episode on Blaze Podcast Network’s Kibbe on Liberty to gain more insights into the ongoing discussions surrounding gender, sports, and cultural dynamics.

Transcript

[Matt Kibbe]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. I am live at Freedom Fest with my friend Jennifer Seay. She's a regular on this show and we're going to talk about her new athletic brand, XXXY Athletics. And she is going to defend the radical position that boys are different than girls. If you can handle it, check it.

[Unknown]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty.

[Matt Kibbe]

Jennifer. Hey.

[Jennifer Seay]

Hi, Matt.

[Matt Kibbe]

How are you?

[Jennifer Seay]

Good.

[Matt Kibbe]

I think yours will be the most controversial PODC that I do here at Freedom Fest because you insist on this crazy idea that boys are different than girls. How can you possibly believe that?

[Jennifer Seay]

I know I'm going out on a limb and boys cannot become girls. I know that's hard to wrap your head around the thing we all believed 10 years ago, but, yeah, I'm building a brand around that very simple idea, which should be the easiest thing in the world to say, but somehow kicks up all kind of dust and controversy. And you know, the irony though, Matt, is 80% of people do agree with us on those very simple facts. And yet the 20% that does not have captured all of the institutions. And so media, universities, sport governing bodies, they all sort of tout this fiction that if you say you're a woman, you are.

[Matt Kibbe]

It's kind of bizarre to me, and I'm sure you've dug into where that pressure campaign came from, but it strikes me as. As a marketing strategy. You're trying to market a brand that's, that's, that's. That argues that women are women and men are men, which I don't even believe. It's an 8020 issue, I'm assuming.

[Jennifer Seay]

I mean, 8020 is what they say, but, I mean, I assume at some point we'll get to 95. Five, I think. You know, I mean, I think there'll always be holdouts that believe you are what you say you are.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah, but. Yeah, but, but the, but the blowback you get from that, that minority, that very aggressive minority, has to be like a marketer's dream, right?

[Jennifer Seay]

Well, we avail ourselves of that opportunity every time there is a conflict in the world around this. And that means, you know, a Young man named A.B. hernandez wins multiple state championships in Calif. Every time something happens, Simone Biles says something crazy and calls Riley Gaines all kinds of names for thinking men and women are different. More people of that 80% that are mostly silent, a few more lean in and decide, no one's going to do this for us. We have to do it. But the blowback is real. I mean, we work with a lot of young athletes. We recently started working with this woman. She's a marathoner. Not like Olympic level, but really, really fast. Like, you know, I think she just ran marathon Boston in 2:45. That's pretty fast. We did a series of interviews with her beforehand about the fact that Boston qualified a few males in the women's division, males who say they're females. She was kicked out of her running club. She was told not to wear their jersey. The day before the marathon, she was stalked online. Her location was stalked in her training runs on Strava. So it's. They're pretty brutal. The tactics of the other side. Now she's withstood it and it's just made her stronger and madder. She's like the nicest, most soft spoken person in the world. And they're like, you know, you're a murderer, fascist. Killing trans people. Because she said the women's category should be for women.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, I guess. I guess Riley Gaines went first, is maybe not first, but in the public eye. She was the first one.

[Jennifer Seay]

I think that's right. One thing I do like to point out, because I think they deserve a lot of credit are the real people that went first were what are called the TERFs, because people are very fond of saying, where are the feminists? Well, Those are the TERFs.

[Matt Kibbe]

So I know this term from Dave Chappelle.

[Jennifer Seay]

Right, okay. So the left wing, radical feminist. The term has now become almost like a joke, like we all wear it proudly. It's supposed to be an insult, but they started to talk about this decades ago, honestly. And you know, in the UK they're further along than us. There's a law that just passed. The Supreme Court just determined that in order to be considered a woman in the eyes of the law, you actually have to be born a woman. So that impacts women's spaces better, women's shelters, prisons, etc. I mean, it's crazy that you need the Supreme Court to tell us that, but that was the TERFs that drove that. J.K. rowling, famously a TERF. These are very left leaning women who saw this coming a mile away. Full credit. But I would say Riley thrust the issue into the public eye and she's obviously a conservative woman. So I think what's amazing is we're all working together because we understand what biological reality is. But yeah, Riley is the face of the movement for sure.

[Matt Kibbe]

And so let's just talk about the brands because I didn't check about the last time we talked, but I think you were just launching the brand the last time we spoke, and things are farther along.

[Jennifer Seay]

Things are much farther along. We're about a year and a few months in, which is still, as you know, baby brand. It's definitely early days of startup land, but it's going really, really well. You know, somebody wrote about us recently that we were the increasingly influential pro woman brand. I'll take it. Somebody else wrote transphobic brand. That was a headline in the. In the San Francisco Chronicle. So we're in the headlines. That's what I care about. And people are. It's doing exactly what I wanted it to do, which is it gives people who are maybe a little afraid to speak out in their hometown at their daughter's soccer game. It gives them a way to do it. Wear the T shirt prompts a conversation. And you have the hard conversations, and you learn most people agree with you, and that gives that other person confidence to wear it. Because I think this will be won by the people, not through legislation.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. And I shouldn't discount just how difficult it probably is that the local level of raising the question, because you'll immediately be called a bigot or worse, which.

[Jennifer Seay]

Is not that fun.

[Matt Kibbe]

No, it's not fun, particularly.

[Jennifer Seay]

I mean, people like you and I don't care anymore. But it's hard the first time. I mean, I spent the first six months or maybe even a year during COVID of being called a racist, trying to defend why I was not. I don't bother doing that anymore because, you know, you can't. They don't make any sense. They don't want to argue on the merits. They just call you names. But I can see why people want to avoid being called that name.

[Matt Kibbe]

Right. You remind me what a troublemaker you are, because this is how I met you.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's a nice troublemaker.

[Matt Kibbe]

How dare you suggest that children should be allowed to go to school?

[Jennifer Seay]

Wasn't that mean and locked down and murderous of me?

[Matt Kibbe]

So you just go from one fight to another?

[Jennifer Seay]

Well, I figure once you're canceled, I mean, you know, honestly, after my Covid debacle, I did Start interviewing in 2023. I mean, I'd worked in corporate America and leadership positions for 30 years, and I was told repeatedly, if you want to work here, you have to apologize for what you've done in the summer of 2023.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

Everyone knew that everything I said was right at that point. Point. But that wasn't the point. It was that I'd been disobedient and I didn't follow the script. That's what I'd be Really apologizing for. So, of course, I did not agree to that. That's part of the reason I decided to start the brand. Once you're ousted, you might as well keep going.

[Matt Kibbe]

And that's your expertise in your business. And Riley Gaines was your first brand ambassador.

[Jennifer Seay]

She's been with us since the beginning. Yeah. And we've had a few others, but she's obviously the most well known and she's been an amazing supporter. I mean, she's all in on the cause, so she wants to help in any way she can.

[Matt Kibbe]

I want to talk about Simone Biles, but for people that don't know Riley's story, remind us.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah. Riley Gaines was a swimmer at the University of Kentucky. 12 time all American student, scholar, all the prizes you could win. She had gone to the Olympic trials very young. Gosh, I can't remember what year it must have been. 2020. Maybe before that, maybe it was 2016. So very accomplished swimmer. In 2022, at the NCAA Finals, she swam against a young man named Will Thomas. She did not know who it was at first, and then there was whispering amongst the swimmers that he had swam for the University of Pennsylvania for three years. In the men's category, Will Thomas, he was a male swimmer of no repute, ranked somewhere between 400th and 500th across variety events. He quote, unquote, transitioned and shot up to the top six in a range of women's events and chose to go by Leah Thomas. At this point, it's worth noting that when he transitioned, he also was allowed to use the women's locker room at University of Pennsylvania. He paraded around, essentially harassing the other women in the locker room. Not a good person. And so in her. In one of her finals races, she tied with Will Thomas for fifth place. He's well over six feet tall. Riley's an average height, size, woman small. When we were five, five. Anyway, when she. When it was time to do the medal ceremony, the NCAA representative told her, you'll have to stand down, Riley. Will is. Well, Leah. They said, Leah is going to accept the medal even though you tied. Because they wanted the photo op. They wanted the woke photo op. And in the moment, Riley was a very young woman. I think she was bewildered and I think allowed that to happen. But very quickly she came to realize after the competition that the adults in the room were not going to do the right thing. And so she started speaking out almost immediately after that happened.

[Unknown]

Thank you for joining me today on Kibbe on Liberty and for being part of our Fiercely Independent audience. Every week, my organization, Free the People, partners with BlazeTV to bring you this show. My guests bring smart perspectives on everything from current events to timeless philosophical debates. If you like what you hear, go to freethepeople.org kol and support Kibbe on Liberty so we can continue to produce these honest conversations with interesting people. Now, let's get back to it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Just the idea that two people forget the rest of the story. But is it normal for when two people tie that some bureaucrat says, well, you get the prize?

[Jennifer Seay]

I don't believe so.

[Matt Kibbe]

I've never heard of such a thing.

[Jennifer Seay]

I've never competed in the ncaa. I competed in usoc Olympic committee governed competitions. And no ties meant there were two people on that place. Sometimes that eliminates the next one. It's like if you have a tie on fifth and there's no six, but no, you share the podium.

[Matt Kibbe]

So fast forward. So this is Riley's story and obviously she's been outspoken and she's testified before Congress and she's been widely demonized by, by the, the. What, what do you call the anti turfs. What's.

[Jennifer Seay]

What's loser in.

[Matt Kibbe]

In polite company? Is there, Is there a. Is there a.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's a good question. I'm freezing Matt on the spot. I don't know. I call them crazy. I mean, it's the left, by and large. It's the Democrats.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

It's the progressive left.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. Sort of the radical trans community.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's what's so crazy. They consider themselves progressive. They consider this, the feminist view, to be more inclusive of quote, unquote, all women, even the ones with penises. It's the most retrograde, misogynistic view because essentially they're saying, we're going to let these guys have what they want. These guys are insisting on coming into our spaces. They're wearing the lipstick and the outfits and that's what they want. They want to compete in girls sports and they want to come into women's locker rooms. So we're going to just stand down and put our own rights and safety and opportunity aside. They don't see it, though. The left doesn't see it that way. I just view it as totally retrograde, sexist, misogynist position of prioritizing boys wants over girls rights.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And I'm old enough to remember when feminism was a thing in the progressive world. This is kind of where you come from, right?

[Jennifer Seay]

I mean, I still consider myself a feminist. I mean, I've said this at various. I'm kind of politically Homeless. But I would still on a very basic. I think feminism means. I think women deserve the right to vote, own a home, have their own credit card without their husband, you know, signing off on it.

[Matt Kibbe]

See, just more radical.

[Jennifer Seay]

It's crazy stuff coming from you. Up until the early 70s, those things weren't true, of course.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

So I'm still. I'm not letting these new crazy, fandangled feminists have the title. I'm keeping it.

[Matt Kibbe]

So, Simone Biles.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And this won't be a headline by the time we run this show, but it's interesting in the broader context. Very celebrated gymnast, best in the world ever. Yeah, tell us about her. Because I only know a little bit about her.

[Jennifer Seay]

I've been a huge Simone fan and supporter. I was a former gymnast, as you know, national team, et cetera. She is. I mean, there's no question. She is the goat. She is the best that has ever been. The number of skills, the level of difficulty. I think she has five skills named after her. The level of difficulty that she competes at, the skills that she does. It's like it's gonna take 20 years for other athletes to catch up. It's kind of mind blowing. She has seven Olympic medals. No, 11 Olympic medals, seven of them gold. She has 30 world championship medals. It's pretty mind blowing. I think she had a 10 year run where she never lost a competition she entered. Think about that. I mean, Michael Jordan, so I didn't.

[Matt Kibbe]

Know nearly half of that.

[Jennifer Seay]

So she's that good.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

And her career has been somewhat fraught with some controversy. And I think generally she's handled herself with great poise. The other thing she's done in the sport, which I think is really cool, is the sport has typically been a little girls sport. And I think that is actually part of what makes. It makes these young girls a target for abuse, sexual and emotional and physical. And it was always the story, well, you can't. You're done at 17. Well, she just won the Olympics at 27, so I think that's badass too.

[Matt Kibbe]

And. And she spoke out against abuse. Is that. Is that correct?

[Jennifer Seay]

Well, she did. It's a little bit of a nuanced story. So she was abused, sexually abused by Larry Nassar, who was the team doctor for Team USA Gymnastics. She spoke out. She testified before Congress after he'd already gone to prison. So she did not. She was not part of putting him away. She didn't come forward until after he was sentenced. I'll let people make of that what they were.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And culturally, like, the pressure of the woke trans mob must have had something to do with her decision to come out and take shots at Riley Gaines.

[Jennifer Seay]

It was bizarre because she. First of all, she doesn't tweet much. Like, if you look at her timeline, it's mostly retweets of sports stuff. I mean, I think we can all glean that she's left and a Democrat, but it's not like she's that aggressive about it. I mean, she's not Megan Rapinoe.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

So it was weird. I mean, some people were speculating it wasn't her. I think it was her. I think it was a rash decision, an impetuous decision, and she just lashed out, and she thought everyone would agree with her because everyone always agrees with. With her. Right. And everyone she knows agrees with her.

[Matt Kibbe]

She's in an echo chamber where she just thought that would be an easy shot to take.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah. And it would be fun. And she'd beat up on the conservative gal, and everybody would be like, yeah, go, Simone. But I think what she didn't realize and what was also very clear from the tweets is she's not following this issue very closely because she made a suggestion that the other side finds unacceptable. I'll explain. So, first of all, she thought, I'll just bash on the conservative. And of course, no. And people were outraged on the left and the right. We all support Riley because she's brave and she's articulate and thoughtful, and she doesn't make this more complicated than it needs to be. She's fierce, and so people clap back. I think Simone was probably pretty shocked. I think her handlers were even more shocked. She represents very big mainstream brands. United Airlines Athleta, it's an apparel company by the Gap Athletic Apparel Company and Uber Eats. And I think the PR ladies got real nervous that they were gonna get Bud lighted, and they probably got the, you know, together like, holy shit, what are we gonna do about this? And they wrote and published three days later, a terrible apology because they don't want to lose the endorsement deals.

[Matt Kibbe]

You know, wasn't even an apology. It was tortured.

[Jennifer Seay]

It wasn't. But this is what I. Let me go back again. Because one of the things Simone said in her inciting original tweets is that Riley should use her platform to advocate for a third trans category, which is a tell, because they don't want that. Part of it is not part they want. They only accept being men in women's sports for the validation of identity. And I actually think Part of it is that you humiliation of women. I really do think that's part of it. They consider it othering to have a third category, separate but equal. In fact, USA Swimming tried a third category and guess how many people showed up? 0.0trans people. So that just to me indicates she is so not familiar with the debate going on. But yes, a very mealy mouthed, sort of pathetic AI written, legally vetted statement came out. But I think Riley won this contest.

[Matt Kibbe]

That's fascinating. So it strikes me as a cultural tipping point.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's what I think too. I think the fact that she thinks, and her handlers more importantly think she had to apologize is a huge tipping point.

[Unknown]

If you've made it this far into the show, it means I must be doing something right. T Beyond Liberty is just one of the amazing products we create at Free the people. We tell emotionally compelling stories and produce educational videos for the Liberty Curious. Our award winning documentaries personalize all things liberty, independence, creativity, hard work, integrity and perseverance. After the show, check out our [e-mail] and if you like what you see, donate to support what we do.

[Matt Kibbe]

That's free.

[Unknown]

Freethepeople.org now back to the show.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, we actually did a show on the Bud Light disaster and it's quite similar. And I wonder why, you know, a brand that big, why would the PR guys let her have her own X account?

[Jennifer Seay]

Like, you mean for Simone? Yeah, that's a good question, don't you think? I think some people that are well known, they like it. Yeah, I think they just do it and they weren't always that famous. I mean, Simone's been famous a long time, but certainly she's more famous now. Yeah, I mean she has like 2 million expo. I think she has 12 million Instagram followers. I mean she's pretty, she has a huge fan base.

[Matt Kibbe]

I, I guess the reason, like why would. I don't know. But you're probably telling me that like she, she didn't really go political before this in a way that was alienating.

[Jennifer Seay]

I don't think she has, I mean my understanding I could be wrong is she was asked to endorse Kamala and did not. I think she sends little signals across the bow that she definitely is of the left. But I think the real insight here is I think she's kind of a mean girl.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

And there's past, there's past history with it. But she went after another gymnast from the 21 Olympics, I think named Mikayla Skinner. And I think Mikayla is A closet conservative. You can sort of glean it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

She'd gotten in trouble during COVID for not masking. That's a tell. Not masking.

[Matt Kibbe]

That was a test.

[Jennifer Seay]

I mean, and Simone went after her and Mikayla basically begged for her to let up because. Because the harassment she was getting online was so intense. I think she can be a bit of a bully and a mean girl.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, there was a. I forget what it was, but there was kind of a shot at Riley's looks in the tweet.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yes, that was the second tweet. So there were two. The first one said, you're sick, you're a sore loser, you're a bully, basically. The second one said, why don't you pick on people your own size? Which would ironically be a man, which is body shaming, which is at odds with the Athleta whole brand mission, which is all about body positivity. And Simone has very publicly talked about. I mean, she's clearly a very muscular build and she's talked about the shaming she's gotten and how she was given this body for a reason and she's going to use it and so then to go after another woman. But she also acknowledged, I think or implied in the tweet that men are stronger. So she kind of got in her own way.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And this, of course is a gold mine for a rising athletic brand that wants to support women.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah. I mean, it puts the issue front and center in the public square because it's not just on Twitter. There were articles in People magazine and Us magazine and all of these outlets that would never write about this issue. And they had to treat it in a somewhat balanced way because Simone apologized to Riley. You know, so if these other publications write about it, it's to slam our side. But they couldn't do it that way because Simone apologized. There was an op ed in USA Today by a sports journalist, sports journalist named Nancy Armour that basically, basically was like this. It was terrible. You know, Simone is awesome. And didn't she show Riley she's a hero? She's as brave as we all knew she was. It was so bad, she said, there's no evidence that trans identified. This is my language. Trans identified males have any advantage in sports. They published that. That's false. There's plenty of evidence. But point being, it was written about in USA Today and People magazine and Us magazine can't get more mainstream than that.

[Matt Kibbe]

So you're, you're obviously your products are here.

[Jennifer Seay]

Some of them.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, you're right down the street from us on media Row. But are you going to. Where do you do on the ground? Guerrilla marketing. Do you go to sports events and do this?

[Jennifer Seay]

We were just at a Spartan race. Do you know what the Spartan race is?

[Matt Kibbe]

No.

[Jennifer Seay]

Do you know what tough mudder is? No, you don't have to. I didn't know what Spartan race was either. Spartan races are around the country. They just did one in Colorado Springs and it's like these like crazy obstacle courses with long runs and they have a big military fan base and they do these races all around the country. You like run through mud and do a thousand pull ups and then run five miles. I'm sort of, I'm never doing one.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, Sounds like a lot of fun.

[Jennifer Seay]

People like it. My team all did it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

So we were just there and those were our people for sure. So we're going to do more Spartan races. We choose carefully. You know, not, not all sporting events are. We're. We're going to, we're not going to find our people at all the sporting events. But Spartan is definitely for us. CrossFit, I think, is for us. So we just got to pick the right ones. I mean, the fact is secretly most people are our people, but they aren't willing to say it yet.

[Matt Kibbe]

The question is, are they going to wear it on a shirt?

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah, exactly. Are they going to say it out loud and proud? And I am not in the business of convincing someone they should. Those people who are afraid are going to come around eventually. So we go where the people who are not afraid to say it are.

[Matt Kibbe]

And that's sort of the process of cultural influence, making it safe for people who are at the margin but not willing to pay the price for their opinions.

[Jennifer Seay]

Well said. I have nothing to add to that. That's right.

[Matt Kibbe]

Okay.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, I guess we're done now.

[Jennifer Seay]

I think. I mean, that was my whole sort of thinking with this brand is I knew most people had to agree with us. No one actually thinks that if a guy puts on a dress that he's suddenly a woman. No one thinks that. I mean, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And the reason no one had any issue with this stuff 20 years ago is because the men who like to do that didn't actually demand that you call them women. They were fine. They knew they were male. You know, that's the difference though is this like demand that we accept this lunatic idea that a man who, who says he's a woman is a woman and can go into women's prisons, batter, women's shelters, anything. So we just have to rest the culture back. And I think the language from the other side has been infiltrating the culture for the last 10 to 20 years. And we were kind of asleep at the wheel. So I'm a bit of a hardliner now. On language.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, it's funny enough, and you may agree with me or not, but I have trans friends who feel totally screwed over by the radical trans movement and insisting that men can compete in women's sports because it creates a level of hate and negative attention for people that just want to live their lives.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yes, that is definitely a view. I know there. I mean, I talked with one of your friends yesterday, I think, and I think we disagree a bit on, on where to go next because of how aggressive the community has become. I'm just like, no, I am here. I am going to stand up for the safety and privacy of women and girls. First bathrooms, locker rooms, all of it. And you're right, 20 years ago, I mean, I had several trans identified people. Both directions that worked for me. It was. But the demand to be in women's spaces, it's just gotten so crazy that I feel like I need to just hold the line and rest the culture back. And we can have third spaces and bathrooms and all of that, but girls and women need to feel comfortable and safe. I mean, that's my priority, certainly.

[Unknown]

At Kibbe. On Liberty. Freedom is a lifestyle 24 7, something you live and breathe and wear every day. If that describes you, you need the very best liberty swag in the market today. Just like this shirt I happen to be wearing. Go to freethepeople.org kol and check out our exciting merch. You too can love Liberty and look cool.

[Matt Kibbe]

So you did a main stage conversation with chef Andrew Gruel. I'm a big fan of his food porn. I'm a big fan of his take on the food industrial complex. And you were both talking about building a brand. And in some ways you're quite similar because you're both influencers too. You're out there, you're expressing these opinions and that's part of how. Well, it's a huge part of how you're marketing your product. But at the same time, you insist that you're not an alternative brand, you're just a brand. Explain. Explain that.

[Jennifer Seay]

I represent the whole parallel economy. I think it's a way for the big established legacy brands and businesses to turn us into second class citizens. And I know there's a lot of Brands and businesses in my. In our camp that accept it and embrace it. It's like this rebellious, you know, and I reject it. We're not a second. We're not illegitimate in any way. It's a legitimate business. 80% of people agree with us. You're the illegitimate business. If you're talking about, you know, some women have penises, that's an illegitimate viewpoint. So I just, I want to be a big athletic brand that competes with the big brands, you know, the Nikes and the Lululemons and the beyond Yogas and the aloes of the world, the vioris of the world. And I think if we accept second class status, we can't be that.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, I may have mentioned it to you before, but there was a book that had a huge influence on me when I was a grassroots organizer called Radical Marketing. And it. It was all about guerrilla marketing without doing paid media campaigns. This is an old book. So social media really wasn't a thing yet.

[Jennifer Seay]

And that was newer then. Everything was traditional. I mean, when I started in marketing, you made two TV ads a year. You hit play and you hoped for the best. It was a lot easier.

[Matt Kibbe]

But two of the examples that I love just because of my weird passions. One was a story about how the Grateful Dead marketed their music and their concerts by basically allowing their fans to record the concerts and then share the.

[Jennifer Seay]

Tapes at the Dead shows. They sell the tapes.

[Matt Kibbe]

You can't sell them, but you can trade them. And they were insistent on this culture and they became like a Fortune 50 company.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's really cool. I hadn't really thought about that.

[Matt Kibbe]

And the other was the now mega brand Sam Adams beer. And when I. For. What's his name? David Koch, I think was the founder's name, I forget what it was. But he would just go to bar to bar. And this is back when a beer with actual flavor was not a thing. And he would go to bar to bar and market his brand face to face. And it's sort of where this term grew marketing came from.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it definitely. Over the course of my time, I mean, I started my first agency agent ad agency job I think was 1994. So I've been doing this well, and it was definitely not a thing. And then you had a moment where you had like guerrilla marketing departments.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

You also had digital marketing departments. Like the main marketing was TV ads and radio ads. And then you had these like satellite arms.

[Matt Kibbe]

A department of guerrilla ARP marketing seems like an oxymoron, but yeah, that's true.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's funny, but even the idea that digital marketing was a separate thing is sort of funny at this point. It's all digital marketing, so now it's all one group. But, yeah, it was definitely new. When I was at Levi's, we did a ton of grassroots marketing, mostly revolving around music and music festivals, and that was a huge part of making the brand cool again.

[Matt Kibbe]

But I bring it up because I was using it as someone that was trying to build a social movement.

[Jennifer Seay]

Sure.

[Matt Kibbe]

And the power of building a community around your brand that not only buys your stuff, but they're like, I'm part of this. This is my brand.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah. No, you make a good point. I'll use Levi's as an example. While I was there, when I started as the Chief marketing officer in 2013, the brand had seen some pretty hard times. And really what had happened was Gen Xers. Are you X like me? Your ex? Right, Cusp. Sure, you're a little cusp. I'm firmly planted in the X. I.

[Matt Kibbe]

Am the last year of being a boomer, and it really pisses me off. You could just say, I do not have a boomer mindset. I identify as Gen X.

[Jennifer Seay]

You can. That's fine. I accept that I'm firmly in Gen X. So Gen X was the generation that just embraced and loved Levi's. And then over the years, the brand, I mean, I'm simplifying dramatically, failed to attract new, younger consumers. So all of a sudden, Gen X'ers are 50. So the average age of this brand is 50. That's not good for a brand, for your shelf life and your longevity. So we had to make it young and we had to make it cool again. But we had to do it by leaning into what the brand means and the values of the brand. Anyway, one of the big wins outside of music and all that and redoing the fits, was we had a logo T shirt. It was just a white T shirt with a red bat wing. The bat wing is the Levi. And that T shirt, like fire. It was, like, insane. I think we sold, you know, 7,800,000 million dollars worth of that T shirt in a year or two years. But I think it's because the brand came to have meaning and people wanted to proudly wear it. To say, this is what I stand for. Originality and authenticity may or may not be true, but that's what they believed. So what we're finding, and it's really unusual for a new brand to have that kind of logo power our number one selling item. I'm not wearing it right now. It's a black shirt with a green logo and a black hat with a green logo. And it's like it's becoming a uniform of common sense.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, that's the one I have.

[Jennifer Seay]

It's a cool one.

[Matt Kibbe]

And it's also just a really beautiful shirt. Like the.

[Jennifer Seay]

It's a high quality shirt.

[Matt Kibbe]

The colors and the quality shirt, like, it's. It's actually worth wearing.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah, it's a. We make the highest quality product. I don't. This is not a gimmick for me. I want to make high quality products. Product. It's made ethically. We don't make anything in China, so. Yeah. I mean, it's not a cheap T shirt.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

You're investing.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah, we're investing in the product. And if you buy it, it's gonna last and it's gonna fit you well. And anyway, but that's the unit. We think it's. So people want to wear the logo to say what they believe. My friend Jamie Reed, who was a whistleblower. I don't know if you know who Jamie is. She's awesome. She worked in a clinic, a youth gender medicine clinic in St. Louis, and she blew the whistle, I think. First person from the medical community. She said she was testifying somewhere and she was nervous, and she looked out in the crowd and there were people wearing our T shirt, and she knew she had friends there.

[Matt Kibbe]

I forget where it was. I was at a music festival, and there was a guy wearing the hat. So I went up and struck up a conversation.

[Jennifer Seay]

She's in. Jen, you help us find our people, which is cool. It makes me so happy.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And it's.

[Jennifer Seay]

What did you guys talk about?

[Matt Kibbe]

Just how he found the brand and all of that. And, you know, music festivals are not necessarily a bastion of libertarian and conservative thought. So we're not speaking too loudly.

[Jennifer Seay]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

But you're saying, I know that. I know that shirt.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's so cool. That makes sense. Me happy. Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And that's. That's like. That's cultural impact, right?

[Jennifer Seay]

I believe so. I think people ask me, what is it you want to accomplish? I want to influence the cultural conversation. I want to make it cool to stand up and say girls and women deserve their own sports and spaces. But I also want this to be a growing and profitable business, and I can't actually do the advocacy unless the business is growing and profitable, so I want to do both. And ultimately, I think we're the only. Only athletic brand, possibly the only brand truly empowering female athletes to use their voices.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

What's the shirt? Is it badass women or women are badass?

[Jennifer Seay]

Oh, the one I wore the other day. Real girls rock. Real women rock.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Seay]

That's a little bit of a wink. I don't get in as much trouble. It's just the people who know that. I mean, real women. Actual real women.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everybody listening to this needs to go buy something. Where do they go?

[Jennifer Seay]

They should go buy something. Xx xyathletics.com or we have a cute, fun vanity URL, which is thetruthfits.com Nice.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, good to catch up.

[Jennifer Seay]

Nice to see you, Matt. Always.

[Matt Kibbe]

Real girls rock.

[Jennifer Seay]

Real girls. And real women. Real men rock, too.

[Matt Kibbe]

My wife's not so sure. Thank you.

[Jennifer Seay]

Fair enough. Thank you.

[Unknown]

Thanks for watching. If you liked the conversation, make sure to like the video, subscribe and also ring the bell for notifications. And if you want to know more about free the people, go to freethepeople.org.