Kibbe on Liberty Ep 349: "Trump’s Tariffs Are Really About Executive Power"

Host: Matt Kibbe (A), Free the People
Guest: Phil Magness (B), Independent Institute
Date: September 10, 2025

Episode Overview

Matt Kibbe welcomes economic historian Phil Magness for an incisive discussion on the recent court decision overturning Trump's tariffs. More than a policy quarrel about trade, the episode explores deeper themes of executive power, the cyclical abuse of "emergency powers," and the mounting influence of authoritarian impulses on both the right and left. Magness connects the logic of COVID-19 lockdowns to the justifications for new tariffs, warning that unchecked executive authority—regardless of party—poses a long-term threat to constitutional government and free markets.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Phil Magness’s Work and Libertarian Traditions

• Phil’s New Role: Magness updates listeners on his leadership in research at the Independent Institute ([00:59]).
• Taste Test: Echoing Kibbe’s show's tradition, they share a special Friedrich Hayek edition American rye whiskey, reflecting on how even “pro-America” products rely on international supply chains ([01:44]-[03:05]).

2. Roots of Executive Overreach: COVID, Emergency Powers, and Authoritarian Drift

• COVID Lockdowns as Precedent: Discussion revisits the start of the pandemic, highlighting how emergency powers invoked since 9/11 enabled lockdowns with minimal public debate ([03:05]-[04:38]).
  • "The original enabling acts... were passed after 9/11... Suddenly we got another type of pandemic. Every governor in America was basically handed a power by the president to declare lockdowns." – Phil Magness, [03:42]
• Hayekian Critique: Kibbe frames his skepticism of pandemic central planning through Hayek’s insights on the impossibility of top-down knowledge ([04:43]-[05:05]).
  • "A central pandemic plan is no different than a central economic plan in many regards." – Phil Magness, [05:11]
• Public Choice Perspective: Even if government had the right knowledge, Magness notes, “they would not have the incentives necessarily to act in our interest instead of theirs” ([06:58]-[07:52]).

3. Authoritarianism Across the Spectrum: "New Right" and Post-Liberal Thought

• Curtis Yarvin & the "New Right": Magness exposes the philosophical roots of the new nationalist right—suspicious of democracy, skeptical of markets, and pining for strongman politics ([09:24]-[15:33]).
  • "They actually don't like the American founding. Yarvin rants and raves against that." – Phil Magness, [09:24]
  • Notable Quote:
    "Covid came along and they saw, ah, this is our aha moment. We can shut America off from the rest of the world..." – Phil Magness, [10:05]
• National Conservatism and Protectionism: They trace the ongoing influence of Thomas Carlyle and Henry Clay on this faction, connecting it to contemporary dismissals of libertarian economists.

4. Trade Policy Gone Wild: Trump’s Tariffs and Executive Power Expansion

• The Legal Break: Unlike previous presidents, Trump sidestepped established trade law procedures to use the IEEPA (“International Emergency Economic Powers Act”), which was designed for foreign sanctions, as a tool for sweeping, global tariffs ([19:36]-[22:02]).
  • "No president had ever claimed the power to rewrite the entire US Tariff schedule." – Phil Magness, [19:47]
• Why This Matters: The IEEPA’s broad, vague language allowed tariffs without the usual procedural limits, congressional oversight, or justification. This move, far from targeted, functioned as an executive power grab ([21:29]-[22:02]).
• Legal Challenge: Recent court rulings found this use of IEEPA unconstitutional and an example of illegal delegation, but appeals have delayed a final outcome ([22:47]-[26:25]).
  • "This is an illegal and probably unconstitutional claim of IEEPA's powers by emergency decree." – Phil Magness, [22:47]

5. Economic and Political Fallout: Who Actually Pays For Tariffs?

• Tariffs as a Domestic Tax: Countering Trump adviser claims that tariffs are taxes on foreigners, Magness explains that U.S. importers pay, costs are passed on to U.S. consumers, and revenues offsetting tax cuts are functionally tax increases ([28:14]-[31:04]).
  • "I've got news for them, but you just acquired some scotch whiskey... I now have a $56 tariff bill that Trump has ordered to be collected on mail order packages." – Phil Magness, [30:47]
• Retaliation and Economic Entanglement: U.S. industries are deeply tied to global supply chains. Trade wars backfire—e.g., bourbon cask and rye whiskey trade with Canada and Scotland becomes collateral damage ([33:31]-[35:19]).
  • "It's all intertwined and it's hard to get people to appreciate that American companies can't create American jobs unless they have access to products from other countries." – Matt Kibbe, [35:19]-[36:02]

6. Cranks, Navarro, and the Intellectual Weakness of Trump’s Protectionism

• Peter Navarro’s Influence: Navarro is painted as ideologically suspect (“degrowther,” anti-market, formerly a Democrat), with a penchant for “command and control” industrial policy reminiscent of Perón or Mussolini ([36:58]-[39:34]).
  • "He's a particularly cranky advocate of the kind of industrial policy that you would see in fascist economies." – Matt Kibbe, [37:19]
• Diminishing Role of Market-Oriented Voices: Kibbe mourns the disappearance of pro-market economists from Trump’s inner circle. Instead, marginal or academically suspect advisors shape policy ([41:20]-[43:11]).
  • "Trump in his gut for some reason loves tariffs... But what he has done in the second term is he surrounded himself by the cranks and crackpots..." – Phil Magness, [39:34]

7. Legal Prognosis & Long-Term Implications

• Supreme Court Outlook: Given recent Supreme Court precedent on executive overreach (student loans, EPA), originalist justices should decisively rule against Trump’s approach, but the final outcome is uncertain ([50:25]-[54:00]).
  • "Any conservative judge should look at that and say... this is so far out of skew, out of boundaries of what the US Constitution permits, that why is this even a case?" – Phil Magness, [50:25]
• Danger of Executive Precedent: The gravest concern isn’t tariffs themselves, but the door this opens: if unchecked, future presidents (from either party) could declare any issue (climate, guns, inequality) an "emergency" and wield sweeping powers with little accountability ([54:00]-[57:56]).
  • "If Trump's legacy is an expansion of executive power, what are you going to do when AOC is president?" – Matt Kibbe, [54:41]

8. National Conservative Thought Leaders: Orrin Cass and the Return of Smoot-Hawley

• Orrin Cass and Revisionist History: Cass’s advocacy for high tariffs and protectionism echoes economic rationales discredited since the Great Depression ([58:14]-[63:28]).
  • "This wrecks the entire United States economy... that was considered for the last 90 years to be the death knell of the Henry Clay American system ideology. Well, here we are 90 years later... we need to go back to that." – Phil Magness, [61:30]-[63:28]
• Political Repercussions: Smoot-Hawley destroyed the Republican Party for a generation—an eerie parallel for today’s GOP ([63:28]-[64:08]).

9. A Glimmer of Hope and Lessons from History

• Hope for Free Market Voices: Kibbe and Magness hope that a broad, liberty-oriented coalition will reassert itself if the Supreme Court strikes down the current tariff regime, freeing the GOP to focus on positive deregulation and tax reform ([64:55]-[66:37]).

  • "The greatest gift that the Supreme Court could give to the Trump administration is to cut off the tariff agenda, to stop it in its tracks." – Phil Magness, [65:45]

• A Toast to Resistance: The episode closes with a salute to the Whiskey Rebellion, as a symbol of resistance to government overreach ([66:55]-[67:24]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• "A central pandemic plan is no different than a central economic plan in many regards."
  — Phil Magness, [05:11]

• "They actually don't like the American founding. Yarvin rants and raves against that."
  — Phil Magness, [09:24]

• "No president had ever claimed the power to rewrite the entire US Tariff schedule... he says, I'm going to use the IEEPA... to put a tariff on every single country on earth."
  — Phil Magness, [19:47], [20:14]

• "I've got news for them, but you just acquired some scotch whiskey... I now have a $56 tariff bill that Trump has ordered to be collected on mail order packages."
  — Phil Magness, [30:47]

• "Trump in his gut for some reason loves tariffs... but what he has done in the second term is he surrounded himself by the cranks and crackpots..."
  — Phil Magness, [39:34]

• "If Trump's legacy is an expansion of executive power, what are you going to do when AOC is president?"
  — Matt Kibbe, [54:41]

• "The greatest gift that the Supreme Court could give to the Trump administration is to cut off the tariff agenda."
  — Phil Magness, [65:45]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:59] — Phil Magness’s new role and research focus at the Independent Institute
• [03:05] — COVID lockdowns, emergency powers, and loss of constitutional limits
• [09:24] — Curtis Yarvin, post-liberal new right, and origins of right-authoritarian thought
• [17:01] — Trump’s targeted tariffs versus expansion via IEEPA
• [22:47] — Legal challenges and unconstitutional delegation of Congress’s tariff power
• [28:14] — Tariffs in the “big beautiful bill” and impacts on consumers
• [33:31] — Interdependence of international trade: bourbon, scotch, and whiskey barrels
• [36:58] — Peter Navarro and the intellectual vacuum in protectionist advocacy
• [50:25] — Supreme Court prospects and the constitutional stakes
• [54:00] — The real issue: unchecked executive emergency powers
• [58:14] — Orrin Cass, intellectual roots of protectionism, Smoot-Hawley parallels
• [63:28] — Political consequences of protectionism in U.S. history
• [65:45] — Why ending the tariffs in court could save the administration and economy

Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

With a blend of humor, skepticism, and economic rigor, Kibbe and Magness champion constitutional limits and economic sanity over populist-authoritarian excess on both the left and right. The episode closes on a sober, if hopeful, note, saluting the American tradition of challenging government overreach—whether it comes disguised as protectionism or pandemic-era emergency measures.

Useful for the Liberty-Curious & Political Observers

This robust episode provides listeners with a historical, legal, and economic context for today’s trade and governmental power debates, while warning of the dangers in expanding executive powers “even when it’s your guy”—because sooner or later, executive precedent will be wielded by the opposition. A must-listen (or read) for anyone worried about the future of constitutional government, market freedom, and the new ideological currents shaping America’s right.