Ep 363 | The FBI’s Pipe-Bomber Narrative Makes No Sense | Guest: Rep. Thomas Massie

Summary

Podcast Summary: Kibbe on Liberty Ep 363

Title: The FBI’s Pipe-Bomber Narrative Makes No Sense
Host: Matt Kibbe
Guest: Rep. Thomas Massie
Date: December 10, 2025
Network: Blaze Podcast Network

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Overview

In this episode, Matt Kibbe sits down with Congressman Thomas Massie to delve into the recent developments in the investigation of the January 6th pipe bomber. Massie expresses deep skepticism about the FBI's official narrative following the sudden arrest of a suspect, highlighting inconsistencies, unexplored leads, and previous patterns of entrapment and cover-up by federal agencies. The conversation also touches broader issues of government accountability, surveillance, and the politicization of federal law enforcement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unpacking the Arrest Timing and Narrative

• Sudden Arrest After Long Hiatus:
  • The FBI had seemingly let the pipe bomb investigation stall for five years, only identifying a suspect after renewed congressional and investigative journalist pressure.
  • Massie points out how the arrest happened just after coverage and interviews on the topic, suggesting political motivation rather than investigative breakthrough.
  • Quote: “So again, like. And that coincidence to me is... surprising, maybe even a red flag.” (Matt Kibbe, 04:21)

2. Firsthand Congressional Involvement

• Massie’s Unique Perspective:
  • Massie explains his direct involvement: his staff uncovered key video evidence relating to the bomb discovery and he’s been intimately involved in subsequent oversight and investigation.
  • He details interviews with Capitol Police, FBI officials, and committee work scrutinizing the investigation’s handling.
  • Quote: “I'm not a random Congressman who's interested in these news stories... It was my staffer on the Hill who sat down and watched dozens of hours of video and made the discovery of who found the second pipe bomb.” (Thomas Massie, 04:45)

3. Discrepancies and Anomalies in FBI’s Story

• Suspicious Behavior and Resignations:
  • Officer implicated in initial interviews resigned right after being mentioned, raising more suspicion.
  • The person who found the second bomb was “lucky,” discovering it within minutes—circumstances Massie calls improbable.
• Cell Tower Data Mystery:
  • FBI originally claimed essential cell data was “corrupted.” However, after congressional scrutiny, the provider denied this, suggesting FBI misdirection or incompetence.
  • The exclusion of law enforcement, Congress, and unexplained others from key leads undermines trust.
  • Quote: “How does this 60 minute kitchen timer, how's that supposed to set off a bomb 16 hours later?” (Thomas Massie, 08:14)

4. Possible Entrapment & The “Patsy” Narrative

• History of FBI/ATF Entrapment:
  • Kibbe and Massie discuss Grok’s (AI) revelation and their own congressional experience observing federal agencies groom or manipulate vulnerable individuals into criminal plots for conviction statistics.
  • Drawing parallels to the Michigan Governor Whitmer “fednapping” case, overseen by the same FBI official who later managed the J6 investigation.
  • Quote: "They end up with... the dregs. And in this case... two mentally disadvantaged people who got caught up in this ATF sting got tattoos of the logo of the fake gun store...” (Thomas Massie, 28:20)
• Skepticism Toward Suspect Choice:
  • The arrested suspect is described as autistic, low-functioning, and a “My Little Pony” fan, with family ties running contrary to the official MAGA narrative.
  • Purchases of bomb-making materials predated both the election and J6, with some occurring after J6—timeline making little logical sense.
  • Quote: "He must be a national asset at this point because he predicted the election if the motive is that he was upset about the election.” (Thomas Massie, 34:46)
• Patsy/Fall Guy Possibility:
  • Massie suggests the suspect may have been set up, perhaps as a distraction from deeper orchestration or misconduct.

5. Institutional Accountability & Surveillance State

• FBI Politicization & Lack of Reform:
  • Massie and Kibbe agree the Biden-era FBI has become deeply politicized, pointing to officials like Jocelyn Ballantyne, a prosecutor with a partisan history, leading the pipe bomber case.
  • Massie highlights Congressional hypocrisy: senators upset about government spying only focus on their own compensation, ignoring structural surveillance reform.
  • Quote: “They included a half million dollar payout to each of them and standing to sue the government... it’s like they carved eight exemptions out of the law so that they could enrich themselves.” (Thomas Massie, 22:58)
• Resistance to Genuine Reform:
  • Only a select few (Massie names himself, Rand Paul, Mike Lee) actually take concrete steps to restore constitutional checks on surveillance powers.

6. Inconsistencies & Pressure for Transparency

• Unexplained Quick Location of Bombs:
  • Counter-surveillance teams made suspiciously direct beelines for bomb locations, suggesting foreknowledge.
  • Gaps remain about who placed the bombs, video timelines, and police/-FBI cooperation.
• Need for Continued Public Pressure:
  • Massie urges that only public pressure and independent journalism are forcing accuracy and accountability.
  • Quote: “If we... If there isn't constant pressure, something else will come out. But I do have faith... I have faith in the crowdsourcing of this.” (Thomas Massie, 52:16)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On FBI Motivation:
  “Why after, at that point, five years, did they suddenly go reinvestigate an investigation that apparently had been put aside as inconclusive at best?” (Matt Kibbe, 04:30)
• On Excluding Police from the Suspect List:
  “They just ruled out either because they were law enforcement or other persons who wouldn't be of interest. ... They should have done the full investigation, but they didn't.” (Thomas Massie, 09:38)
• On Politicization and Lack of Reform:
  “It’s like they carved eight exemptions out of the law so that they could enrich themselves.” (Thomas Massie, 22:58)
• On Suspect’s Profile:
  “He was pro My Little Pony... and his father has made a max donation to some Democrat.” (Thomas Massie, 17:07)
• On False Confessions and Vulnerable Suspects:
  “There are possible... that you can get a false confession out of somebody who's autistic. ... it is absolutely positive.” (Thomas Massie, 33:10, 32:26)
• On Continued Investigation:
  “They need to explain why the former FBI folks did not follow up some of these leads all the way.” (Thomas Massie, 51:31)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:00 – Discussion of Steve Baker’s reporting impact and Capitol Police resignations.
• 04:45 – Massie’s staff discovers video evidence; context on investigation.
• 06:00 – Massie’s meetings with relevant officers; FBI obstruction and misleading.
• 08:06 – FBI claims “corrupted” cell data—proven false.
• 12:31 – Connections between pipe bomb locations, Capitol Hill Club, and suspicious Metro card use.
• 14:48 – FBI’s history of entrapment in bomb plots.
• 16:10 – Massie’s tweet on three things he’ll “never believe” about the case.
• 22:58 – Congressional carve-out for senators’ surveillance damages.
• 28:20 – ATF and FBI’s use of entrapment; Michigan plot connection.
• 32:01 – Cellular evidence against suspect weak.
• 34:46 – Purchases of bomb materials predating events.
• 38:21 – Discussion of suspect being set up as a "patsy."
• 41:50 – Prosecutor Jocelyn Ballantyne’s continued DOJ employment.
• 50:38 – Bomb placement timing and role of independent journalists.
• 51:31 – Massie calling for more oversight and transparency.

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Conclusion

Congressman Thomas Massie and Matt Kibbe robustly challenge the legitimacy of the FBI’s official pipe bomber narrative, drawing on both evidence and institutional patterns of behavior. The episode underscores the role of persistent independent oversight and investigative journalism in exposing inconsistencies and demanding transparency from federal power. For listeners, the dialogue is a comprehensive, unfiltered look at one of the most controversial unresolved threads of January 6th and broader issues of politicized justice and state surveillance.

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Memorable Sign-off:
“If there isn't constant pressure, something else will come out. But I do have faith... I have faith in the crowdsourcing of this.”
— Thomas Massie (52:16)

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To dive deeper:
Watch Rep. Massie’s full interview with Steve Baker, which features new video analysis and additional revelations.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. Part one of another mega episode with Congressman Thomas Massie, this time about the alleged pipe bomber that the FBI has announced that they caught and the anomalies in the official narrative and why it is that Congressman Massie does not believe that one loner acted alone. Check it out.

Welcome to kibby at liberty.

Congressman, I feel like we keep doing this.

[B]

We gotta quit meeting this way.

[A]

Yeah. The last time we talked was October 29th, and we talked about the Epstein files in particular, and you were optimistic that you were going to get to 218. But everything has changed since then, and I want to get to that. But right now, you've reinserted yourself into the ongoing drama investigation about the January 6th pipe bomber. And you had this conversation with Steve Baker that we at Free the People published because we wanted to sort of document all of the inconsistencies in the official narrative about that. But we have new information now. The FBI has identified, I guess they would call it a suspect in this case. And you tweeted some skepticism about the official narrative.

[B]

Well, before we move on, let's talk about the Steve Baker interview. One of the men that we mentioned in the Steve Baker interview resigned the day after I did that interview. He works for the Capitol Hill police. He was third in command. And then also after I did that Steve Baker interview, another whistleblower reached out to me about that particular.

Officer at the Capitol Hill Police who had resigned. It was a man who had worked with that gentleman before and gave me some reinforcement that he may not be on the up and up.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm sure that's just a coincidence that he would resign the day after.

[B]

Yeah, I don't want to. Allegedly, he did something inappropriate at the Capitol Hill Police.

Unrelated to the pipe bomb, but that's too much to speculate on. But, yeah, was the result of that interview. This former person who worked in the government undercover had had an operation where this Capitol Hill police officer, who was ATF at the time, had inserted himself and botched.

Something they had going on.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So there was some fallout from that. And also, I would say this arrest.

Is a little bit of fallout.

The FBI claims they were tracking somebody for a while, but I think it was Steve Baker's reporting, Barry Loudermilk's committee, and the movement they were making on the cell tower data. And then that interview I did with Steve Baker, I think that may have prompted the FBI to act quicker in this arrest.

[A]

So.

In the announcement that they had found.

The alleged bomber happened maybe a week after that interview or a week after the Blaze story?

[B]

Yeah, a week after the interview.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So again, like. And that coincidence to me is.

Surprising, maybe even a red flag. Like, why after, at that point, five years, did they suddenly go reinvestigate an investigation that apparently had been put aside as inconclusive at best?

[B]

So let me, let me. And also before we jump into this recent arrest, let me give folks the context for my perspective. I'm not a random Congressman who's interested in these news stories. It was my staffer on the Hill who sat down and watched dozens of hours of video and made the discovery of who found the second pipe bomb. And anybody who finds the bomb should obviously be a suspect. The FBI, Biden's FBI, admitted as much to me.

So I have that context of watching those videos. And then I had to work with Kevin McCarthy to get that video released to show how that second pipe bomb was found, because nobody on the planet had ever talked about how that second pipe bomb was found. And I think it, it was an interesting circumstance. The folks that found it should have bought lottery tickets that day. They got so lucky in finding it within 15 minutes of being told to go look for a pipe bomb. And by the way, they didn't go look for a third pipe bomb. Okay, so that's part of the context. Another part of the context is my staffer now works for Kash Patel.

And has because of particular insight into this case. So I have that context.

Also. I talked to one of the counter surveillance officers in my office who found the pipe bomb. I never got to talk to the other counter surveillance officer. I would dearly love to do that.

I talked to his handler in my office, who is the Capitol Hill police guy, third in command, who resigned last week. Okay. He became the handler for the counter surveillance officers when I wanted to talk to them the day of January 6th. He worked for the ATF and was over all things explosive, you know, firearms and whatnot, bombs that day. But he migrated from ATF to Metro Police to Capitol Hill Police, where he was until just last week or the week before. So I have personal conversations with those two folks at Capitol Police. And then I also have personal experience of interviewing the assistant FBI director in charge of the Washington Field office, Jim Jordan, as part of the Judiciary Committee oversight of the DOJ and FBI, called that man in because he led the raid on Mar A Lago. Now, he claims he didn't want to do the raid and he was reluctant, but while the guy was in and sworn in, you know, doing the transcribed interview I asked Jordan, could I pop in and ask some questions? So I popped in and asked him questions about the pipe bomb investigation. And he told me in that interview that when I asked him, why didn't you use cell phone data to geolocate the suspect, he said the data had been corrupted by one of the providers. Now, the Judiciary Committee and Barry Loudermilk's special committee.

Followed up on that lead and the cell phone provider said, no, our data wasn't corrupted.

So that colors my trust of the FBI and this investigation in general. I also asked him a question. How does this 60 minute kitchen timer, how's that supposed to set off a bomb 16 hours later? Because the FBI narrative then and still now is that these bombs were planted on the evening of January 5 and meant to blow up on January 6 and were operable. He didn't have a good answer for that. And that transcript is available online if folks want to go read that. Finally.

Barry Loudermilk's committee, and I was chair of a subcommittee last Congress in Judiciary on regulatory reform in the administrative state. But I did investigation of this pipe bomb. And so Barry Loudermilk's committee and the folks working for me in Judiciary on this project produced about a hundred page report at the beginning of this year and which was the end of Congress. Right. So the new Congress started on January 3rd. I think our report came out on January 2nd. That's when you have to turn in all your homework. And we covered a lot of interesting things like some of the leads that the FBI chose not to follow. And we had questions. Why didn't they follow these leads.

For instance? They had, it looked like they did identify several people that pinged on the cell phones in those locations. But 51 of those cell phones they just ruled out either because they were law enforcement or other persons who wouldn't be of interest. What I'm realizing now is I may have been on that list of 51 because I was in that same circuit where the pipe bombs were laid. I was between the two pipe bombs that night. I got in a car and went and bought takeout food from a restaurant on the wharf and brought it back. So I'm sure I'm one of the pings. But they should have followed every one of those pings. They shouldn't have ruled out congressmen, they shouldn't have ruled out police or anybody else. They should have done the full investigation, but they didn't. And finally.

There'S this interesting lead that I know about because I have access to some of this stuff where they went to. There was an individual in Falls Church, Virginia, former military, who is now like E13, works for the government. And his transit card, his Metro card, was used. It was purchased a year before it was used. It was used only twice. It was used on January 5th in and 20,002 January 6th. It was his childhood friend who he hadn't seen in years. And his childhood friend wanted to come to D.C. and stay with him, end up using his Metro card, goes to the South Capitol Street Metro station, changes, puts on a hat, a hood, a mask, and gets out of the subway. Takes pictures of the location where the. They call it the RNC pipe bomb. It's actually a very specific spot. It's an alleyway between the RNC and the Capitol Hill Club. And there's a dumpster back there. He's back there taking pictures of the area where the pipe bomb was found the next day. And somehow the FBI. He said he was writing a book and he needed some pictures of numbers for the chapter headings or something. The book's never been published. We're five years later, and this guy just sort of disappeared off the planet. So that's a lead the FBI needs to trace. But I've, you know, I've seen pictures of that individual. He's. We'll call him person of interest, too.

And they incidentally he.

Person of interest 3. Who's the owner of the transit card? The MetroCard shared a wall. They weren't just like neighbors. They shared a wall, their doors. You could literally touch both doors at the same time with a Capitol Police officer that.

Steve Baker thinks may have been involved. By the way, a lot of these investigations were just heating up, and then this arrest happens, and now they got to pull the story of this one lead. And interviews that were getting set up may not happen now.

[A]

Explain that. So it looks like the FBI scrambled to come up with a suspect in response to.

Your statements, your interviews, Steve.

[B]

Baker's story, Barry Loudermilk's diligence.

[A]

Barry Loudermilk and other independent journalists are asking a lot of pointed questions about obvious inconsistencies with the narrative. And once they have a suspect, how does that end?

[B]

Well, if we want to do transcribed interviews, it makes it hard to justify because now there's a narrative out there. And why would you go looking for anybody else? They found the guy. After five years, they found him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All they had to do was look at the data they had, just look a little bit harder.

[A]

Thank you for joining me today on.

[C]

Kibbe on Liberty and for being part of our fiercely independent audience. Every week, my organization, Free the People, partners with BlazeTV to bring you this show. My guests bring smart perspectives on everything from current events to timeless philosophical debates. If you like what you hear, go to freethepeople.org kol and support Kibbe on Liberty so we can continue to produce these honest conversations with interesting people. Now, let's get back to it.

[A]

Yeah, I want to read something from Grok, and then I want to go through a tweet that you had. I asked Grok if the FBI had a history of grooming certain types of people.

In bomb plots. And Grok says, not that Grok is always right, but then, then Grok proceeds to list out a bunch of specific cases. Yes, there are numerous documented cases where the FBI has been accused of grooming or entrapment in bombing plots through informants and undercover agents who proposed ideas, provided resources, for example, fake bombs and incentivized, vulnerable individuals, often young, mentally unstable or predisposed, but incapable of acting alone. These post 9, 1111 operations, criticized in reports by Human Rights Watch, the Brennan center and outlets like the Intercept, make up about 30% of terrorism stings conviction rate with an 88% conviction rate despite weak defenses.

And I'm thinking about this in the context of something you tweeted right after this. The suspected pipe bomber was announced. And you have three things, but I'll ask the first one, three things I'll never believe about the January 5th 6th pipe bomb story. The bomber was a lone wolf. And that's everything that you and Steve are talking about. It's not just circumstantial evidence, but video evidence that strongly suggests that the Capitol Hill police were involved.

[B]

Yes, a very, very, very small subset of the Capitol Hill police because what they did was endanger the lives of other Capitol Hill police by throwing gasoline on the fire. Actually providing the spark in a wooded area is maybe a better analogy.

So those three things.

I will, you know, I said I don't believe he acted alone. I, I don't believe the FBI was, was, will this willfully incompetent for, you know, four years under Biden.

And what was the third thing? I said the third one?

[A]

Oh, that he's a. Perpetrators were pro Trump.

[B]

Yeah. No, I don't. I mean, there have been rumors of that, that this suspect was pro Trump, but it just doesn't add up. I mean, he was pro My Little Pony. He was a My Little Pony fan.

And he had parents who had sued the Trump administration. His father had at Least.

And his father has made a max donation to some Democrat. So if there's any tangible evidence other than this alleged testimony of this guy, probably without a lawyer, I don't know if he had a lawyer present for four hours.

Let's talk about the prosecutor in this case, too.

The prosecutor in this case, it's a person that a lot of maga and even just regular conservatives were surprised to find out still has a job at the doj. Her name is Jocelyn Ballantyne or Ballantyne. And she tried to get, well, she prosecuted, tried to prosecute Michael Flynn. And when they decided to drop that, she said, no, we should keep going. And I have special information about that, too, that I received in his gif. He should have never been prosecuted given the classified information that I know about him.

But she was against dropping that case. And then she led the proud boys case, or she was part of that. She's been notoriously involved in trying to keep evidence from defendants.

Also involved in cases where evidence got modified. And she was also notoriously trying to get a confession out of one of these Proud boys. She told him he'd get a lighter sentence if he could implicate K. Trump.

In their. Whatever they were convicted of, which was like a conspiracy, not actually doing anything. Right.

She is the prosecutor who is now in charge of this case against this individual they arrested recently. And the question is why she even have a job at the doj. She tried to set Trump up and she's gone after conservatives. And the president was asked, I think it was Lindell, TV reporter. Her name's Kara. I forget. Casanova or something. She asked the president in this question here this week, you know, why she's still there? And the President said, I don't know. We're looking into that. It's a Democrat hoax.

[A]

Yeah.

As an aside, before I get you off your track, I remember when you actually were able to question Kash Patel about the Epstein files. And I'm characterizing his comments again and again. He seemed to say, I haven't looked at any of that, but I'm trusting my guys to tell me that they're doing their job.

[B]

And his guys are the same guys that worked when, when Biden was there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, you know, I have, I have a problem with trusting the people who are still there. There's not really been enough turnover of the people who implicated themselves with the, with the sort of wanton prosecutions and, and the.

You know, the fervor with which they pursued prosecuting anybody associated with J6.

[A]

So all MAGA, all conservatives, libertarians. At least this libertarian.

Would characterize, certainly the Biden years of the FBI as radically politicized.

And yet it doesn't seem like anything has changed at all.

[B]

They even spied on Republican members of Congress. Yes, when we have FISA coming up for a vote here pretty soon. Reauthorization.

[A]

What is that? That's Arctic frost.

[B]

Yeah, Arctic frost, which is like one of my favorite flavors of Gatorade.

[A]

But here's another rabbit hole. Why is it that all of the senators in Congress, and including our least favorite senator, perhaps at least my least favorite senator, Lindsey Graham.

Outraged by the fact that the federal government was surveilling his phone data, but not willing to do anything about the surveillance state that actually empowered the Alphabet agencies to stalk him. He wants to sue them and take taxpayer money for his damages. But is anybody actually talking about going after the apparatus that they created for that has now been turned back on them?

[B]

So eight senators, including the one you mentioned, discovered not because of any diligence on the part of the Congressional oversight. It wasn't our Judiciary Committee or their Judiciary Committee who found this out. It wasn't Kash Patel or Dan Bongino who told them it was a whistleblower who informed these eight senators that they had been spied on and that the telecoms had received a gag order not to even admit that they had spied on these senators. And these senators were so outraged that they wanted some form of justice for themselves now, so that they inserted. See if you or I, first of all, you or I would never find out that we were spied on because a whistleblower can go to Congress but he can't go to individuals. Right. So we're never going to. Well, when I say I, I guess I could. You know, whistleblowers can and do come to me. But let's, let's use you and everybody watching this. You're never going to find out that you were spied on because a whistleblower can't go to you. But even if you did find out.

The law doesn't really provide for a way for you to have standing or to prove what the damages were. And so the senators discovered this, so they changed the law in this last cr. They included a half million dollar payout to each of them and standing to sue the government. But it's like they carved eight exemptions out of the law so that they could enrich themselves. And that was in the last continuing resolution. And I think I was the only or one of Two Republicans who voted against that continuing resolution. And the others were so outraged, the entire Freedom Caucus. Oh my gosh. We cannot let this stand. So what did they do? Did they vote against the law that gave these eight senators special half million dollar payouts? No, they're afraid of Trump. So they voted for the CR in exchange for a righteous bill to come to the floor the next week that removes this provision for these senators. Now here's the problem with, with the remedy that they achieved. Yeah, we had a vote in the House on taking that away from the senators, but the senators ain't bringing that bill up.

[A]

It'll never happen.

[B]

It'll never happen. And that's, I mean, yeah, I'm sorry to my Freedom Caucus friends, but you caved on that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if you, if you were not going to stand on something like that, that's a problem. But now you got me off track here.

[A]

One more question on that. And I don't want to go back to, but is there anyone besides you and Senator Rand Paul.

Maybe Senator Mike Lee, who would actually want to fix the empowerment of the surveillance state that allowed for that kind of, I would argue, radically unconstitutional surveillance of US Senators?

[B]

Well, I'm not going to mention her name, but we had one brave congresswoman who said, I'm not voting for.

The ndaa National Defense Authorization Act. I think that's the bill she decided to make her stand on. Unless the FBI has to disclose to Congress when they're spying on Congress. Okay, so not a carve out just for eight senators, but protection for all hundred senators and all 435 members of the House. Except they're not going to tell us. The FBI would have to tell the speaker and the chair of the committees. You think if they're spying on Thomas Massie. That Thomas Massie is Mike Johnson, who roundly despises me and you know, backhand insults left and right. He's still sore over the fact that he had to vote for my Epstein Files Transparency Act. Extremely mad about that. You think he's ever gonna tell me that the FBI spying on me? He's never gonna tell me. And by the way, that's not.

[A]

He might encourage them.

[B]

By the way, I don't need to be told. It's my default assumption that they're in my phone.

[A]

Okay, so we're back to the regular scheduled programming. I forget exactly where we were.

[B]

Well, I had tweeted that there's three things I'll never believe. That this was a lone wolf, that the FBI was.

Unwittingly incompetent for four years. I believe it's a cover up. There's multiple choices. You can pick which kind of COVID up you think it is, but it's a cover up of the FBI. And the third thing is, I don't believe it was a Trump supporter. That's the thing. They haven't established the motive yet of this.

Mentally delayed individual that they arrested last week or the week before, by the way, two things. You know, you asked Grok. We don't need to really ask Grok. I have personal experience with a couple of these things where they entrap people who are, you know, barely getting by in life.

Easily misled, and couldn't achieve really anything on their own other than going to 711 and buying a Slurpee or something. Right. They're not going to be able to procure bomb materials and plot and find the locations and the times and all this other stuff. So we had this case when I was on oversight committee of these FBI or, sorry, ATF stings. The ATF would set up these stings and try to entrap people. And one of their stings, they had a fake gun store and they would bring people in, and anybody with half a brain and an ATF agent offers to sell you a machine gun or something with no paperwork. Undercover ATF agent, you're like, all right, this person's glowing. I'm out of here. So what they end up with. And these dragnets are sort of the dregs. And in this case of the fake ATF gun store, they had a logo. I don't know if it was an octopus or something, but they got two people so entrapped that the.

Mentally disadvantaged, I don't know what word is appropriate these days, these two mentally disadvantaged people who got caught up in this ATF sting got tattoos of the logo of the fake gun store on their bodies. Like it's, you know, I was involved in an ATF sting and all I got was this stupid tattoo that's like the next. That's probably the T shirt they wear now and then. Also to tie this closer to this pipe bomb case. Steve Dantuano was the assistant FBI director in charge of Washington field office when J6 happened. He had arrived just a few months before J6, and he was there for about a year and responsible for the pipe bomb investigation. Guess what he did before he came to the Washington field office? He was over the Michigan field office and he oversaw the fednapping.

Scandal on Governor Whitmer. Like he was Literally the guy in charge of that office where they used mentally disadvantaged. I just came up with that term.

[A]

Yeah. Individuals assuming the comments will be corrected by the woke correct crowd.

[B]

I don't care. My kids came up with this word knee nard because in school they weren't allowed to say retarded. Yeah. So they would say that's ninated or you're a ninard.

[A]

My wife calls me a retard all the time. I think it's in term of Endearment. I'm not sure.

[B]

Probably.

So. Anyways, he has a history of that. He's the guy in charge of what happens on January 6 and the investigation following that.

[A]

Same here.

[B]

It does fit. It does fit. As Grok says and as my personal experience overseeing these things in Congress, it does fit the profile. So they've arrested this 30 year old. He would have been 25 year old at the time.

He works. It's data entry for his parents bail bonds business.

His, his.

His grandmother or mother has come out. You know, they always, the family always says they're innocent obviously. Right. But they offered almost kind of the.

You know, what's the plea deal you make when you're not mentally capable of committing the crime knowingly or whatever. They offered that sort of defense in the public. They said, look, our son or our grandson, he's autistic and he's operating at a 16 year old level and he's not capable of this. That was their claim. And I do think that's relevant to know sort of his mental acuity, one of his other jobs, and this is relevant, included being working for DoorDash. Because what the FBI has is some very fuzzy pings of him in the D.C. area or they say they have. Last time I talked to him, the cell phone data was corrupted. But we find out the cell phone data is not corrupted.

[A]

It's magically been uncorrupted.

[B]

Uncorrupted. They found the, you know, the magic key, the Captain Crunch decoder.

[A]

Can you uncorrupt data? I don't actually. It doesn't sound like something you can do, but I'm not technically proficient to know the answer to that.

[B]

Well, it took them four years and 10 months to do it, but they did it. And they, and so they found this individual.

These aren't like locations, GPS locations that are down to a meter. These are like within a few blocks. The kind of resolution they have is within a few blocks. And the pings are borderline in the range of the cell towers. Like they're on the ragged Edge of the field of service of those cell towers.

And so, you know, they're going to have to find something better than that. They're going to have to find some hard evidence. Typically when you get, I think, you know, when you get a confession from somebody, the really good confessions are, did you kill this person? Yeah, I killed him. Where'd you bury the body? Out there in that field on I395. You know, you take that exit over. Okay, go show us. And then you go dig up the body. Like I think there has to be something tangible because it is absolutely positive. There are possible, not positive, absolutely possible that you can get a false confession out of somebody who's autistic. It's, you know, there have been articles written about it.

[A]

That's sort of a standard operating procedure as well, like bullying people into.

[B]

So I hope this interview with this witness that went on or witness, suspect that went on for four hours. I hope it's an audio tape or a videotape that members of Congress at least that I could get access to and form an opinion on this. But we'll see the other. Here's some other inconsistencies with or things that don't quite line up with this suspect.

They say they have checks and credit cards.

Even one of them was a cash purchase. So I'm not sure how they know this individual made a cash purchase of bond making materials. The 1 inch diameter, 8 inch long pipe, the end caps that go over that 9 volt batteries, alligator clips, they literally. They say they have evidence that he's purchased all of those things. By the way, all of those things are in my basement right now, of course. Okay.

Because I've purchased all of those things multiple times.

[A]

Anybody that does home improvements?

[B]

Yeah, if you run the black pipe that is used for gas lines, for instance, if you're hooking up a generator or something. I'm not saying this kid did that sort of work, but these are common materials. But they say they've got him purchasing these things. The thing is.

He must be a national asset at this point because he predicted the election if the motive is that he was upset about the election. So he built these bombs and placed them on J5 so they would go off on J6 and help the insurgents take over the Capitol so that they could overturn the election, which seems to be the narrative right now.

He knew two years in advance to start buying this material because the date on these purchases, almost every purchase, predates the election in November. There are a couple exceptions, but. But the Main exceptions are the purchases that happened on January 21st. So.

We'Re talking about January 5th. He continued, if you saw on the news that your pipe bombs had been discovered, would you go out with your own credit card or checkbook and buy all the same stuff two or three weeks later in the heat of the manhunt? You know this on the news, the FBI is putting out stuff. You're obviously going to be watching for that stuff, whether you're autistic or not. So that. That doesn't make sense. And, you know, my first thought was, okay, he bought him after January 6th. Well, maybe he was going to try, having not succeeded on January 6, maybe planned to blow up something at the inauguration. The problem is the purchases were, I think, January 21st. So, like the day after the inauguration.

The one thing they don't say in the arrest papers is that they don't have a record of him purchasing the material to make the gunpowder.

They may have found that by now, I don't know.

So that's where we are with this. I do not believe he masterminded this plot that he came and that he knew that where the RNC and the DNC were, or even that he looked them up and felt confident he could go to those locations and put those pipe bombs there. Having never been there before, I guess I just don't think he was capable of it. So your choices? I did a poll. Speaking of tweets, I did another tweet. And my question.

These are very scientific. Yeah, obviously they're not scientific, but I typically get 20,000 answers. And a lot of them are, you know, in the constellation of the Internet. These are people clustered around my way of thinking. I understand there's extreme bias here, but I said, do you believe that the person they arrested is a lone wolf? Do you? Or do you think he was involved, but there were more people involved than him, or do you think he's innocent?

This is not how you try cases, right? You don't put them on X and say, do we convict him?

But it was single digits. Think he's a lone wolf. And I do, too.

Once I see the substance of the evidence that the FBI has, I will tell you whether I believe he acted in concert with somebody else or whether he's completely innocent.

There's another choice I didn't list.

Which is.

Maybe he was created to have a false back. Maybe somebody got credit cards in his name and purchased materials in his name to have a cache of this stuff in case they needed it. Maybe somebody called him up and asked him to do a door dash in that neighborhood so that his cell phone would ping. Maybe somebody said, hey, I've got My Little Pony, 1985 edition here on Capitol Hill. It's free if you come pick it up. Now.

Walk around with this backpack, I'll give it to you. There's a lot of. That's another option. I guess you would call that a patsy, a fall guy.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe a rogue agent at some Alphabet agency that was radically politicized, that never imagined that Donald Trump could win reelection.

[B]

Yeah, that's the thing too. I don't think any of these folks. I do. Let me back up because I have to say this something. If we believe today's FBI's story that this case was covered up for four years.

And they're being charitable and alluding to incompetency, but you can't be this incompetent. Right. If you've got these cell phone pings and it's dead to rights, how could you be this incompetent? If you believe today's FBI story, then you need to make some arrests at the FBI. You definitely. If you don't, I think there need to be arrests at the FBI and prosecutions and of the people who were there who covered this up because you can't say it was just bad investigation and you need to be firing everybody who touched this case because they're not going to solve the next case.

If you believe that.

[C]

If you made it this far into the show, it means I must be doing something right. Key Beyond Liberty is just one of the amazing products we create at Free. The people. We tell emotionally compelling stories and produce educational videos for the Liberty Curious. Our award winning documentaries personalize all things liberty. Independence, creativity, hard work, integrity and perseverance. After the show, check out our [e-mail] and if you like what you see, donate to support what we do.

[A]

That's free.

[C]

Freethepeople.org now back to the show.

[A]

You may know this better than me, but there was a lot of talk about cleaning house at the FBI. Certainly Kash Patel's entire.

Pre.

Nomination and confirmation story was we have to clean house. I think he actually argued that we need to shut it down.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Has there been a house cleaning?

[B]

I don't think. Are you aware of anything this Jocelyn Ballantyne or Ballantyne, she's still there at DOJ and she's been. Not only she's there, she's the lead prosecutor against this suspect now. And we already know she's Bi. So that part hasn't been cleaned house.

They didn't say they fired the people that worked on this case. They said they brought in a new. Like, they moved those people off to the side and brought in a new crew, and that's how they made this breakthrough. Here's another possibility that needs to be discussed, because this is the one that Kyle Seraphin, I think, has mentioned as a possibility that the FBI really isn't that incompetent, that they did have this.

Gentleman as a suspect and they found enough information to clear his name already and never went to the trouble of arresting him and doing a press release because there. There was something extenuating, something that exonerated him. That's. That's also a case that, you know, there. There may be a. Not a smoking gun. What's the opposite of a smoking gun? Gun, you know, a rock solid alibi for this individual that they discovered. Yeah, or it could be. I mean, there's another. Here's the thing. This video that I'm making with you is going to be there forever. Right. People will go back and say, oh, Massie thought this. He was wrong. I think in terms of probability, okay, very few things are black and white until I can hold the evidence in my hands. So there's a probability assigned with every one of these outcomes. I'm not saying any of these are certain at all. There's a theory that.

And this would mean that FBI individuals need to be arrested. There's a theory that they identified this guy and they were fairly certain he was the pipe bomber and he didn't match the profile. He's black. His parents, at least, are liberals.

And so they didn't want to disrupt this narrative that they were using to jail all these January 6ers, because if the pipe bombs had been set by a MAGA person, which was the presumption all this time, then that enhanced the prosecutions, and they didn't want to take that away. If that is the case, then where are the arrests? I want to see arrests like today at the FBI. I'm not seeing those arrests, so I don't really put much stock in that probability.

[A]

You know, I'm thinking back to Jimmy Kimmel, why he was temporarily fired and then rehired. But. But he made this categorical statement that the guy that shot Charlie Kirk, that assassinated Charlie Kirk was a MAGA guy. And fast forward to this. And of all the stories about who may have murdered Charlie Kirk, there is no credible story that it was a MAGA guy. Fast forward to this.

The initial story, I don't remember where it came out, but the initial leaked story about the accused pipe bomber was that he was a MAGA guy that was disappointed, felt that the election had been stolen and had magically been purchasing the materials he needed to make bombs even before he knew that the election was stolen. But that must. Where does that leak come from?

[B]

Well, there's a theory behind that which I think is not probable if he didn't have a lawyer present.

But there was one theory that Trump did blanket pardons of all the MAGA people that were present on January 6 and that he would hear and his lawyers had a strategy of qualifying for that pardon. If he claimed that he was upset with the election and that's why he did it.

That'S hard to believe. If his lawyer wasn't present, I don't think this man.

[A]

Do we know if there was a.

[B]

Lawyer present who's operating at the psychological level of a 16 year old old, could have contrived that himself. It may be more likely that somebody, this prosecutor who had him in there without a lawyer said, look.

You know, I don't want this interview to go on forever. I know you want to get back to your family. The easiest way to get this over is just to confess that you were upset about the election. And if you're, you know, autistic and troubled and, and your life's just been rocked and you think that's the easiest way out of there, you may say it. Yeah, I think that's more probable. If there's any merit to the reporting at all, like these are all leaks. Who was in that room?

Not very many people were in that room. And then who was privy to what was said in that room? Not very many people, but they're all government people. So these are all just leaks for the most part. Anything that's not in the affidavit or the arrest warrant.

If it's not in that, we don't know that it's true at all. And the press conference that Patel and Bongino and Bondi and the Metro police that they all did, it was almost completely content free.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. One last thing before I want to move on to better news about the release of the Epstein files. The final question, and this is more guidance for the audience, everyone should go back and watch your full, I think it was hour and 15 minute conversation with Steve Baker where you had new video footage and you're watching Capitol Hill police officers magically not just quickly find the two pipe bombs, but magically go to the third place in front of the Congressional Black Caucus.

That the bomber had been visited the night before. Summarize that quickly. Just because it goes to your second point, there's no way this guy did this alone. If you believe any of this stuff, right, or if you believe your eyes, I should say.

[B]

It defies any reasonable probability to think that they found a pipe bomb the minutes before the breach happened at the Capitol and that this team of counter surveillance officers walked.

They first walked straight to that location that we didn't know about until Steve Baker published the story in the video. Armitas had put it online, but it didn't get much attention. They drive their patrol vehicle to a parking lot, they get out of it and they walk straight to where the pipe bomber had tried to place a bomb the night before and had spent 77 seconds doing something under a Bush. They went straight to that Bush, walked by it, didn't see anything, lingered for 30 seconds a few yards from the Bush, went back to the Bush, went up and craned his neck and looked under the Bush, didn't see anything. Then they go straight to the dnc. It's not like there's a wandering path. It's not like they were looking under other bushes. They looked under exactly two bushes and they were the exact two places that the pipe bomber had been the night before. One where unsuccessfully placed a bomb and the other where the bomb was placed. If we, I mean, we still aren't for sure that that person put those bombs there the night before.

There's dispute even by the person who found the first pipe bomb. Karlyn Younger. She found the first pipe bomb. Barry Loudermilks reached out to do, I think a transcribed interview with her because she works for FirstNet, which got like a $90 million FBI contract shortly after all this.

She found the first pipe bomb. She said she was going to go do her laundry and it was sitting out there.

And then she saw them report in the news, I guess that they had been planted the night before. But she called the FBI tip line and said, no, this was not there when I went by it the first time. It was there later. So, you know, there's some discrepancy there. Like was the pipe bomb placed the night before the one behind the. The Capitol Hill Club that's next to the rnc? There's that discrepancy. But there are a lot of things that just for this to be settled, the FBI needs to this today's FBI Cash Patel and Dan Bongino need to explain.

There need to be some more transcribed interviews with individuals. They need to explain a lot more of the information.

They need to explain why the former FBI folks did not follow up some of these leads all the way.

[A]

Do you think that will happen?

Do you guys have the public to make that happen?

[B]

I don't have the power, but if the public persists, they have the power. It might be a good segue into the Epstein stuff because, I mean, they're trying to memory hole a lot of this. There's obviously still elements at the FBI, whether they're criminally complicit or just embarrassed, they just want. They just want this to go away. And they still work there. And the prosecutor in charge of this case, she still got it out for Trump, and so she's still there. If we. If there isn't constant pressure, something else will come out. But I do have faith. You know, Steve Baker and some of these private sleuths are still tracking down things that raise more questions than they give answers to. And so I have faith in the crowdsourcing of this.

[A]

Okay, what I want to do is probably end this episode and then do a bonus episode on Epstein. So let's end this here. And if you're a loyal viewer, you will want to stay tuned for the next episode.

[C]

Thanks for watching. If you liked the conversation, make sure to like the video, subscribe and also ring the bell for notifications. And if you want to know more about Free the people, go to freethepeople.org.

Sam.