Ep 385 | Grading the Trump Administration on Gun Rights | Guest: Dudley Brown

Summary

Kibbe on Liberty | Ep 385 Grading the Trump Administration on Gun Rights
Guest: Dudley Brown
Release Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, libertarian author and host Matt Kibbe sits down with Dudley Brown, president of the National Association for Gun Rights, to pour some high-proof Tennessee whiskey and deliver a brutally honest assessment of the Trump administration’s record on gun rights. The conversation pulls no punches—jumping from legislative betrayals, true champions of the Second Amendment, and the corrupting culture of DC politics, to the inside game versus grassroots activism. Brown and Kibbe also discuss the upcoming Senate hearing on the intersection of First and Second Amendment rights, the state of gun activism nationwide, and strategies everyday gun owners should pursue to protect their freedoms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Whiskey and Freedom Connection [01:09-02:44]

• Dudley Brown brings a custom-labeled, barrel-proof Jack Daniels bottle to the show. Both host and guest riff on how guns, freedom, and whiskey are connected cultural cues among activists and donors.
  • Brown: "It's weird because there's a nexus of people who are into guns and freedom are actually really into distilled liquors." [02:00]

Report Card: Trump Administration on Gun Rights [02:47–05:40]

• Kibbe sets the framing: Despite perception, Republican administrations are not always champions of gun rights.
• Brown asserts unequivocally that Trump's first term was "abysmal" on guns, only slightly improved in the second term:
  • "The first Trump administration on just plain firearms was abysmal. It was terrible... We were almost the only people saying anything negative publicly about many of their proposals." [03:44]
  • Partial credit is given for repealing the veterans gun ban, but Brown criticizes efforts like national reciprocity as "weak sauce" compared to true constitutional carry.
  • The gold-standard is the Massie/Lee constitutional carry bill: “If you're legally eligible to possess [firearms], you wouldn’t need a permit to go across state lines... That's freedom.” [05:13]

The Champions: Massie, Lee, and Real Activism [05:40–07:09]

• Origins of Massie/Lee constitutional carry: Both have cred for grassroots work passing similar laws in Kentucky.
  • Brown praises Massie and Rand Paul for “sticking their necks out” and using the bully pulpit at the state level.

Endless Defense and Bipartisan Betrayals [07:09–09:26]

• Kibbe laments the cycle of being forced on defense after each mass shooting, with bipartisan calls for new restrictions.
  • Reflects on Trump’s infamous “take the guns first, due process later” line:
    • Kibbe: “I think his support for gun rights was purely political, tepid... He's a New Yorker, and I mean that as a pejorative.” [07:40]
    • Brown: “...He said, 'Take the guns first, due process later.' ...That enabled all these Republicans. Lindsey Graham, of course, was sponsor of the federal red flag law at the time.” [08:15]

The Problem of Pretend Friends [09:26–10:10]

• Kibbe and Brown single out Senator John Cornyn as a prime example of “pretend Second Amendment support”: “He's only good when it doesn't matter.” [09:45]
• Trump personnel: Brown praises new addition Harmeet Dhillon for her constitutional bona fides, trashes Pam Bondi's record.

Never Lie to Gun Owners: The Philosophy of No Compromise [10:10–13:21]

• Brown lays out his two core rules for advocacy:
  1. “I won’t lie to gun owners. I’ll tell you, even if it costs us members.”
  2. “Do no harm. Don’t take a step— even a quarter step—backward, because that’s the best you can get.”
• “That’s what’s been done to gun owners for so long... Let's just draw lines in the sand... If you got the votes, go ahead, but you’re going to pay with your office.” [12:48]

The Corrupting Culture of DC and Institutional Gun Lobbies [13:51–17:12]

• In-depth critique of large DC-based gun groups (e.g., NRA), who act as apologists and lobbyists for politicians rather than issue advocates.
• Brown: “You become the lobbyist for the politicians and that’s screwed up.” [16:13]
• Brown and Kibbe agree: Independent-minded activists are crucial, and sometimes being a “lone wolf” is essential.

Recent GOP Rhetoric and Civil Rights Inconsistencies [17:28–21:35]

• Kibbe blasts Trump and associates for their reaction to the Preddy case: “You can't take a loaded gun to a protest— that's exactly the opposite of what every single gun rights conservative would say.” [17:26]
• Brown notes how this view echoes Jim Crow-era laws, still present in some states.
  • “Regardless of what your views are, even if you’re a leftist, you still have the right to protect yourself.” [19:55]
• Both mock the inconsistency of partisans mouthing whatever their party leader says, and lament the lack of principle from both sides.

The State of the Gun Rights Movement: Grassroots vs. Establishment [21:35–28:41]

• Brown recounts off-the-record admissions by reporters who secretly carry guns—highlighting the taboo among media elites.
• Discussion of the upcoming Senate hearing with Rand Paul and Thomas Massie, focusing on First and Second Amendment intersectionality.
• Brown highlights that with tens of thousands of pages of gun law, virtually every gun owner could be entrapped.

Winning Outside DC: Culture and Legislative Battles [27:28–34:50]

• Explores whether COVID fundamentally shifted voting or political attitudes on guns: Brown is skeptical the surge of new gun owners translated to policy or political change.
• State legislatures are critical battlegrounds: “That’s where you can really make some real leaps... 29 states now have some form of permitless carry.” [29:40]
• Brown warns against encroaching surveillance/policing technologies like red-light cameras.

National Association for Gun Rights: Principles & Strategy [34:50–36:02]

• Brown explains how NAGR is built on a “no compromise” strategy, crediting their fast growth to a mix of libertarians and traditional conservatives.
  • “It’s easier to tame a zealot than animate a corpse.” [34:50]
• They focus on mobilizing people and direct pressure, not K Street lobbying.

The Broader Liberty Coalition & Political Realignment [36:32–46:55]

• Kibbe proposes the idea of an emerging “libertarian populist” coalition made up of “red-pilled” Democrats, free speech absolutists, anti-war types, crypto advocates, and gun owners.
• Brown is hopeful but guarded: coalitions work when they unite around common principles, and Massie’s tough primary will test whether principled stances can survive big money attacks.
  • “When Thomas wins, it’s going to be a good opportunity for him to stand up and say: This is what happens when you stand on principle. You’ll survive, even when millions of dollars is spent against you.” [43:12]
• Both note that decentralized, independent media (especially podcasts) have changed the balance of power: “Cat’s out of the bag, cow’s out of the barn.” [46:24]

Lighter Moments: Whiskey Reviews & Libertarian Pet Preferences [48:58–49:46]

• Kibbe and Brown joke about cat/dog ideological leanings.
• Brown: “Now that I’ve never heard...”
• Kibbe: “Dogs lean commie, cats sort of vegetarian.”

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Notable Quotes

• Dudley Brown: “I won’t lie to gun owners. I’ll tell you, even if it costs us members.” [10:15]
• Matt Kibbe: “I think his support for gun rights was purely political, tepid... He's a New Yorker, and I mean that as a pejorative.” [07:40]
• Dudley Brown: “The first Trump administration on just plain firearms was abysmal. It was terrible...” [03:44]
• Dudley Brown: “Regardless of what your views are, even if you’re a leftist, you still have the right to protect yourself.” [19:55]
• Matt Kibbe: “Because so much is decentralized now and because they can’t censor everybody, they certainly tried...but I think it’s impossible. It’s like whack-a-mole now.” [46:06]
• Dudley Brown: “It’s easier to tame a zealot than animate a corpse.” [34:50]
• Matt Kibbe: “If you want to be loved, buy a puppy.” [48:16]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:47] – Trump administration’s gun rights record
• [05:40] – Origins of Massie/Lee constitutional carry bill
• [07:39] – Rhetorical betrayals: red flag laws & bump stocks
• [08:15] – “Take the guns first, due process later”
• [13:51] – The DC swamp, Beltway gun lobbies, and institutional corruption
• [17:26] – Aftermath of the Alex Preddy shooting & protest rights
• [24:08] – Senate hearing: intersection of First and Second Amendments
• [27:28] – The post-COVID surge in new gun owners
• [29:40] – State victories: permitless carry in 29 states
• [34:50] – NAGR’s “no compromise” strategy & staff philosophy
• [36:32] – Building the libertarian populist coalition
• [43:12] – The significance of Massie’s primary for the liberty movement
• [46:06] – Decentralized media: “cat’s out of the bag, cow’s out of the barn”
• [49:15] – Whiskey review: Jack Daniels Single Barrel, Barrel Proof
• [50:05] – Activist marching orders: holding politicians accountable, supporting constitutional carry

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Actionable Takeaways for Gun Owners

• Hold politicians accountable in elections—refuse to support the “lesser of two evils” narrative. “Don’t ever tell a politician ‘I always vote for Republicans’... you just put a sign on your forehead saying ‘don’t listen to me.’”
• Get involved locally and at the state level. Most pro-gun progress and threats occur outside DC.
• Support constitutional carry at the federal level—push your representatives to cosponsor the Massie/Lee bill.
• Mobilize, don’t compromise. NAGR’s approach emphasizes direct pressure and grassroots organizing.
• Stay informed and connect via gunrights.org and @gunrightsprez on social platforms.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a thorough, no-holds-barred grading of the Trump administration’s spotty record on gun rights, while providing practical wisdom for gun activists and liberty-curious listeners. Brown’s advocacy is defined by independence, refusal to compromise, and an emphasis on direct grassroots action—qualities both he and Kibbe agree are increasingly vital in an era when political parties and institutions repeatedly betray core constitutional freedoms.

Transcript

[Matt Kibbe]

Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. I'm talking to Dudley Brown, the president of the national association for Gun Rights. We're going to drink some Tennessee whiskey. We're going to report balls and strikes what the Trump administration has done for or against gun rights. And we're going to talk about how the Beltway culture always wants to grab your guns. And the only defense against that is vigilance and citizens fighting for what is justly theirs. Check it out. Welcome to kibbe on liberty, Dudley. You come bearing gifts.

[Dudley Brown]

I have.

[Matt Kibbe]

I appreciate that. Tell me about this bottle.

[Dudley Brown]

Well, I'm a whiskey nerd, I think, like you, but had the occasion last year to go to Jack Daniels. I'm not a big Jack Daniels guy, but when you get at their higher end, they do some great stuff and, and got the full tour, then did a couple barrel picks and of course, so we put our label on it and it's picked by our, technically our bourbon picker for our organization. But I.

[Matt Kibbe]

Is that a full time job?

[Dudley Brown]

Well, it kind of is. Well, this is a great bottle. It's a conversation starter, right?

[Matt Kibbe]

Sure.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah. And if you're gonna go meet people who are influential, whether they're YouTubers, whether they're leaders or frankly, big donors, the great way to get in the door is something they're interested in. And it's weird because there's a nexus of people who are into guns and freedom are actually really into distilled liquors. And so.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, you got my attention.

[Dudley Brown]

I thought I did.

[Matt Kibbe]

I thought I would to freedom Post.

[Dudley Brown]

Well, now I'm warning you, it's high proof.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, I'm a big barrel strength guy and this is not your granddaddy's deck, Jack Daniels.

[Dudley Brown]

It is not. It's their barrel proof. But it we picked, I think we did five different barrels. We went through and, and picked this one and I think it was pretty darn good.

[Matt Kibbe]

All right, who did this? That's me. Okay. Good job.

[Dudley Brown]

Colonel Taylor.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, Colonel Taylor. Not, not to be confused with Colonel Taylor.

[Dudley Brown]

Not, not to be concerned with Colonel E.H. taylor. Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, we've talked whiskey and bourbon many times, but since you're in town, I want to get an update on why you're in town. And my thought for today would be to give the Trump administration a report card on where they are on gun rights. And you may have noticed there's a little bit of drama going on, starting with our good friend Thomas Massie, who the pro Trump forces are spending millions of dollars, maybe plus $10 million trying to blast him out of there. But when it comes to your number one issue, gun rights, Thomas is the gold standard. So there's some conflict and I'm a little bit confused. So tell me, tell me what's going on with this administration. I thought Republicans were solid on the Second Amendment.

[Dudley Brown]

All Republicans. A pro gun, Matt. Did you not know that? I mean, right. That's what we're always told.

[Matt Kibbe]

They say that.

[Dudley Brown]

That's what we've been told by the institutional gun lobby for decades. So. And I've been kind of swimming upstream on that for a long time, and now it's starting. Chickens are coming home to roost in many ways. But I will say that the first Trump administration on just plain firearms was abysmal. It was terrible, and it could have gone really badly had there not been some opposition. And we were almost the only people saying anything negative publicly about many of their proposals. And every time they endorsed Red Flag or something to that effect, I will say there's a bit of an improvement in many ways, but it's almost like one step forward, two steps back, too, in the second term. And if I just stick on guns, which is what I'm going to try to do here, even though I clearly care about a lot of issues and personalities involved, but just on guns, it's still pretty weak and it could have been gripped much better. I mean, they did repeal the veterans gun ban, but. But then they push for national reciprocity, which is a really weak sauce. Carry across state lines as long as you can. As long as you can get a permit from whichever state government puts heavy restrictions on you. That's not freedom. Come on. That's not really freedom. Thomas Massie and Senator Mike Lee's bill, National constitutional carry is really the standard. And it would basically just say if you states can't prohibit you from carrying firearms if you're legally eligible to possess them, and so you wouldn't need a permit to go across state lines. In fact, you wouldn't need a permit in California or Illinois or even here in D.C. and so that's, that's freedom.

[Matt Kibbe]

When did this is Massie's legislation originally? Or did they, did they, did Mike Lee introduce it at the same time in the Senate?

[Dudley Brown]

Well, actually, Thomas called me back in 2022, as we knew we were going to take Republicans were going to take the majority, and Thomas was going to be the lead dog on pro gun legislation in the House side. And he was asked, what would you want to pass? And so we were kind of throwing out ideas and what would be a great bill. And, you know, we had a lot of ideas, but we both came back to what we knew, which was constitutional carry. The great part is both Thomas and Senator Rand Paul had worked very diligently as members of Congress to pass the bill in Kentucky in the state legislature. When. When we were trying to pass it and the good old boy network is going to stop us, Thomas and Rand both rogered up and said, yeah, we'll make phone calls. And when you have a US Senator lobbying the state legislature and strong arming people and saying, you need to pass this, it had an effect. And both of them really stuck their neck out. Show me somebody who will do that from their position of higher quotes, higher power. Right. Go back to their state and use the bully pulpit, which is sometimes more important than actually vote here is using a bully pulpit to go and do things.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, I like the concept of big, bold legislation because I feel like, particularly on gun rights, we're always on the defense and there's always death by a thousand cuts and it's Republicans, it's Democrats. Every time there's a shooting, the talking points just recycle. And we go through this thing and, well, maybe bump stocks are a problem. Maybe we need to do something reasonable. On X.

[Free the People Announcer]

On Red Flag.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, on Red Flag. And, you know, rhetorically, I'm going to pick on President Trump a little bit because I don't think. I think his support for gun rights was purely political tepid. Yeah. He's a New Yorker, and I mean that as a pejorative.

[Dudley Brown]

I took it that way, too.

[Matt Kibbe]

And, you know, his instinct going back to the first administration was he said something to the effect, you got to take away the guns first. And I don't even remember the context anymore, but I remember the quote.

[Dudley Brown]

I remember well, when they were in the. Were sitting in the White House with John Cornyn on one side of him and Dianne Feinstein on the other side and said, take the guns first, due process later. And then. And that was in, of course, in response to the Parkland shootings in Florida. And I don't remember him patting Dianne Feinstein's hands and said, don't worry, we're going to get you what you want. And she cackled like a witch and thinking, yeah, I know, I hate you, but you're going to give me what I want. This is the best thing ever. And of course, John Cornyn is the unwitting dupe. Maybe it's not unwitting, but he certainly went along and smiling and we saw that as pretty dark day because that enabled all these Republicans. Lindsey Graham, of course, was sponsor of the federal red flag law at the time. And it also reverberated forward into the Biden administration because just a few years later, what happened, Biden went and pushed for red flag with John Cornyn and Senator Chris Murphy and they pushed this all the way through saying even Trump supported it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. John Cornyn has to be the poster child for a pretend second amendment guy.

[Dudley Brown]

It is, yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

And perhaps feels obligated as a senator from Texas to say those words. But he's never been good. Never been good. Only he's, he's only good when it doesn't matter, is a different way to

[Dudley Brown]

think about it, when it doesn't count. He's there.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, he's 100% there.

[Dudley Brown]

Thanks. Yeah, appreciate that, Senator.

[Matt Kibbe]

But by, by all accounts, all my, my gun rights advocates friends say that Pam Bondi was a problem and she's no longer there. I don't know if the new guy will be back better. And I'm not sure that you can just blame Pam Bondi for this administration's failure to act.

[Dudley Brown]

Well, the good news, I think is that Harmeet Dhillon, who is head of their civil rights division, is a pretty solid constitutionalist. She's actually done some work for us, helped us sue San Jose in previous years and when they tried some weird gun control, not only gun control, but forcing you to join an anti gun group if you wanted to buy a gun, that's how ridiculous it was. And I have a lot more faith in her. And I never had faith in Pam Bondi. Simply fact that what she did in Florida as Attorney General, she was a disaster. And so we were never a fan of hers when she was in the administration. Of course we're trying to work with whoever will work with us in suggesting some changes and if we get some positive changes out of it, great. But in the meantime, I mean, do we have to be honest, Matt, One of my rules is, and I've been a gun lobbyist now for 33 years and my rule is I won't lie to gun owners. I'll tell you, even if it costs us members even it makes people mad. We did that when Trump came in and made some really bad statements early on after the, the shooting in Las Vegas on bump stocks. And we're just not gonna lie. In fact, I even told my board that I said, you know, I know we're gonna make some decisions on how public we go against the administration, but if we don't say anything. I quit. Period. End of sentence. I won't do this. It's not worth it to me. I'm a gun nut. Like, I'm not just a political guy, you know, I, I'm a longtime competitive shooter, machine gun guy. I have a lot of weapons. I've invited you to come out and we can do the podcast from the range. But, but it bothers me that, that they're being lied to. And my second rule is do no harm first. Do no harm. It's don't take a step, a quarter step backward, because that's the best you can get. I always tell gun owners, whenever they say, shouldn't you just cut a deal and compromise? That's what politics is, the art of. It's kind of difficult to tell the sheriff that, hey, that guy stole my ranch, when in fact, you gave him a quarter of it. You know, you can't jail someone for asking for your ranch and then you give them a quarter of it. They didn't steal it. Sorry, you gave it away. And unfortunately, that's what's been done to gun owners for so long. Say, let's just draw lines in the sand and say, if you got the votes, go ahead, but you're going to pay with your, with your office. And it's what happened in 1994, largely when Republicans took over the House for the first time and how many years it was at that point. And it was based on the gun issue and a pale shade of what we were fighting, we're fighting now, but it was the gun issue. And to me, that's the only proper response to politicians, is pay with your office.

[Matt Kibbe]

Thank you for joining me today on

[Free the People Announcer]

Kibbe on Liberty and for being part of our fiercely independent audience. Every week, my organization, Free the People, partners with BlazeTV to bring you this show. My guests bring smart perspectives on everything from current events to timeless philosophical debates. If you like what you hear, go to freethepeople.org kol and support Kibbe on Liberty so we can continue to produce these honest conversations with interesting people. Now, let's get back to it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Talk about the. And I've heard you talk about this before, but talk about the corrupting nature of, you know, the big gun rights associations. You don't need to name names, but I think we know who we're talking about and how they become creatures of Washington, D.C. you know, the cocktail party circuit, and they write the PAC checks and everybody is friends with everybody else and it becomes just a partisan team player kind of thing. Instead of like, this is the issue that we're gonna fight to the death on.

[Dudley Brown]

It does. The worst part is our types and, you know, we're not carbon copies. I know we probably have some policy differences, but. But I think general worldview, you and I are pretty close and I think we have a difficult time because we're very independent. We don't mind being. I know, I know. You don't mind being like the lone wolf and fighting it out.

[Matt Kibbe]

I wouldn't survive in D.C. otherwise.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah, yeah, I don't mind it either. I, you know, I think I maybe even wear it as well, badge of honor. But in politics, there is an important aspect to being a team player in some ways, as long as it's the right team. Right. It's for the principals involved. And so I don't mind saying that. However, the problem is that you get a group who comes and they say they're going to lobby Congress, but what in effect they're doing is they're lobbying for politicians to their members and they go back to their member. They say, politicians say, oh, well, this is the best you're going to get is we're going to negotiate, for instance, the Brady Bill. We're going to require you to do a Brady check before you practice your rights. You have to actually do a full check before you practice a constitutional right and ask government permission every time. And so we're going to require that, but, you know, we'll make it instant. And so they go back and sell it to their members. They say, well, because they don't want to look bad. They don't look like they don't have any juice on the Hill. Right. And that's what Wayne Lapierre did back in the 90s is they went and sold the Brady act as. He didn't want to call it the Brady act. He called it insta check and repackaged it and cut the deal. In fact, he was the one that made a pass. So. And that's how far back I go, is I was involved, like fighting against it at that time. In fact, I was actually working as a contract lobbyist for the state affiliate of the nra. And that is what broke the camel's back. I said, I can't even be involved with this anymore is because they were asking me to kick kiss politician, but not kick it.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Dudley Brown]

So, but you become the lobbyist for the politicians and that's screwed up. Like, you know, you and I are both good friends with a of lot, lot of the same people on the Hill here, and I would venture a guess all of them know that if they do the wrong thing on an issue. Yeah, sorry, you don't have my backup if it's a hot principled issue. You know, sorry, I'm not backing you up, even if you're my friend. And that's the way it should be, is if you're an advocate and, well, one the good guys respect that. The ones who have a problem with it, maybe they weren't that good anyway.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, that's why you're based in Denver and not dc.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

It's a safer place. There's a corrupting force here that Thomas talks about quite a bit.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

Mordor.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah, Mordor.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah. I refer to it as that as well.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. So I want to. And if this again goes back and I'm sort of in a feisty mood about the Trump administration, but the bottom for me on gun rights rhetoric from the Trump administration was after the Alex Preddy shooting, shooting, murder, whatever that was. And I don't even know where we are in the legal proceedings. But when Kash Patel and then President Trump doubled down and said, you can't take a loaded gun to a protest, that's exactly the opposite of what every single gun rights conservative, every single libertarian, anybody that believes in our right to self defense would say. And they just blurt it out as if they hadn't even considered the Second Amendment in the first place.

[Dudley Brown]

Well, they blurted it out, but remember, it was not only first it was Cash Patel, then it was then Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, and then it was the Secretary of the treasury, and then it was the President. And they all said virtually the same thing, almost like they're from the same talking points. It's not like the boss said it. And then they all echoed was in that order. And they all went before the president. Almost like a talking point. Now, I'm not suggesting that necessarily it was a talking point, but it was disturbing and sound more like a Democrat administration than a Republican administration. Certainly. But what I'm going to say tomorrow before Senator Rand Paul's committee on Homeland Security, I'm going to testify that it doesn't matter what your party affiliation or what your views are. It's a civil right path, period, end of sentence. And you don't have to pick one or the other. Nowhere is there in the text, history, tradition of the Bill of Rights is there any precedent for that. And so, Yeah, I call B.S. we're throwing the B.S. flag saying nope. And I suspect I agreed almost nothing with Mr. Preddy. Yeah, and but he had every right to voice his opinion peaceably and every right to have the, have the means of self defense as long as he wasn't a convicted violent felon. And how dare someone say he doesn't. Now there are some states though that still have the old Jim Crow laws in the south that say you can't practice, you can't carry at a point public rally and, or protest and it's all from the civil rights era and fights, you know, post slavery emancipation. And so yeah, those are wrong and I don't, who cares if those laws exist, those should be stripped down as unconstitutional and everybody should reject those. So regardless of what your views are, even if you're a leftist, you still have the right to protect yourself. So and I think that's where the needle administration, they were like, well wait, they're lefties, they don't have the right. I'm like oh sorry.

[Matt Kibbe]

It was, it's bizarre world. And this, this of course happens all the time on all these issues. But the moment that happened, so many loyal Republicans just fell in line and, and mouthed that talking point. He had no right to carry a gun, he didn't have his ID or some sort of ridiculous.

[Dudley Brown]

Keep a list.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, keep a list. And conversely, let's pick on the Democrats. I've been picking on Republicans a little bit here, but the Democrats suddenly discovered the second Amendment seemingly for the first time in my lifetime. I've seldom hear at least modern Democrats defend the second Amendment. And you wish there would be some sort of teachable moment there, but there isn't. And like the next time there's a Democratic president and a Democrats agency shoots somebody in that situation the roles are going to be reversed completely.

[Dudley Brown]

Consistency to me is important and I think we do a disservice if we're inconsistent. The way we just saw it, whether it's Democrats or Republicans, all it does is make those people who are observing who are not very involved in politics, maybe they're not true advocates, but they're looking go oh man, disgruntled, who needs to vote, who needs to be involved in this and frankly, who cares? They're all the same. And that cynicism, frankly is probably well deserved. So I watched it and was so like disgruntled. But of course I was getting reporters, phone calls over and over and over again. It was funny because I got all these reporters who would call me and then they 3 of the like 20 all just like stopped right at the very end and said let's go off the record, I carry all the time. How dare they tell me not, not to. I'm like, okay. And these were not like two of them were not like from what you would call conservative.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, these are, these are reporters that were probably afraid to admit that in the newsroom.

[Dudley Brown]

They almost certainly were.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, I know.

[Dudley Brown]

I, I brought a, I did an interview for Der Spiegel, the biggest magazine in Germany. And a number of years ago and he came out to my range and, and we shot some weapons and actually let him shoot. But I went to take a photo of him and he flipped. Yeah, can't touch that. I would be fired immediately for touching a firearm. Elite, it would be legal for you to touch the firearm. You're not filing the laws. Yeah, like that tells you something, doesn't it?

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah.

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[Matt Kibbe]

Let's talk about this hearing. So Senator Rand Paul. I actually thought it was today because that's when Rand sent the email out, but I didn't read the date. But you're here for that. It's Rand Paul. Thomas Massie, what's, what's the agenda for this hearing other than we're going to go on offense?

[Dudley Brown]

Well, part of it was to talk about, about this, the comments there in, in Minnesota and, and the administration's comments. But it's just talking about the second Amendment and you know, I don't have a lot of time so I'm going to focus on what I think was important. As you said, a learning moment about the first, first and second Amendment and the way they intersect. But I know there can be others who talk about second amendment issues, which is great. I know Thomas is going to testify as well. And actually they almost had a hole with an organization and I suggested you. So it didn't work out. But I said Matt would be great to speak on that, that front. But I think the idea with the committee was let's have a discussion on why it's important that you can exercise more than one right at a Time. And you know, the Fourth Amendment is kind of important too. You can have a second amendment right, but if they can just walk into your home and just start sifting through your guns, I don't know many gun people who couldn't be arrested for having some ridiculous technical problem in their vault. It's that bad. I mean, and I've been doing this for a very long time and I am a certified gun nerd. I think I know a lot about virtually every weapons platform, a lot of them anyway. And, and I keep up with the laws and there is no way to keep up with them. There isn't. It's virtually impossible. And so you can do your very, very best and it's your job and still violate the law. So the fourth Amendment's kind of important in that world, right? If they can walk in, same is true, you know, of a First Amendment right. You know, if all sudden they put all these restrictions, you have 50,000 restrictions in the United States on First Amendment rights. Well, would you want them to be able to come in and look at your camera and say, well, you know, you shared it with in an open. I don't know the technical terms. It could end up in the wrong part of the world and therefore your violation of that law. So we take all of your rights and that, that crap just don't fly and we should defend it when it's our opponents being being manipulated as well.

[Matt Kibbe]

So it's the right time to do it if you actually want to sort of break through for people that sort of fall into their silos and their political talking points. What is your sense along those lines? So we've been talking about inside the beltway, and that's sort of the, I think, the natural grind of government, regardless of who's in power. Of course, the government doesn't like the second Amendment. I get it, they want all the guns, which was precisely the point of the second Amendment. But that's inside the Beltway. Is it more fruitful outside of the beltway and outside of deeply read states, are there other demographics that are like, you know, I should have a right to defend myself?

[Dudley Brown]

Well, the difficult part is this thing. Think back to Covid and we all like, like not to. We'd like to forget that part of

[Matt Kibbe]

the world, but I'm not letting it go.

[Dudley Brown]

That time was just so disgusting. But I know a lot of gun shops who had a line of people walking in the door who bought firearms, who did not look like your average gun owner. And, and some of them were people I Know, in one circumstance, a neighbor, an alternative lifestyle neighbor who said she was buying a gun to protect herself from Trump. And so there were a lot of different motivations that maybe most Americans had not seen. But in the long run, did it change how they voted? Did they, because they felt a need and they're like, oh wow, I actually can't buy a weapon to defend myself. Should I need it? Did that change how they looked at politicians? Oh, dear Lord, no, I don't think any of them did. I mean, if I hate to use anecdote as data.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Dudley Brown]

To quote our good friend Doug Stafford. But it's not data. But I don't see, I don't think I saw that and I don't think, I don't think I saw voting patterns. You would think it would change people's voting patterns, but I don't think it did. And now it still applies to them. And I don't think you should have to take a political test to buy a firearm, practice your second amendment rights. But I will say, you know, the real power is in the legislature. That's the good part, I think, of our system is that it's really geared that Washington D.C. cannot change things very easily, thank God. I don't think we'd have any freedoms left whatsoever if we're easy to change. But the state legislatures was where you can make some changes and I believe it for liberty activists, that's where you can really make some, some, some real leaps. Not only, you know, constitutional carry, we now have it. And we started out with Vermont being the only state, that's what we call it, the Vermont law. But, but now we have 29 states with some form of, of permitless carry. And then, but I mean it's true of even red light camera bands, which I think is a big issue, should be a big issue for anybody. And these flock cameras that are coming out now that are essentially linking television cameras set up all over the place and all feeding into AI and tracking license plates, facial recognition. I mean this is really truly police state stuff. And if this, every city does it, you know, you're going to have to go in state legislatures and even at municipal level and ban them. And even like a very conservative town that I live right next to, Windsor, Colorado, they're very conservative. They just put up a red light camera right in the center of town. Like I would have never guessed that 10 years ago it was a very conservative community. And people are allowing that. And unless activists, you know, oppose them, they're just going to keep doing It. So sometimes that power is down at a very local level. And even though it's tough to keep track of all that, you know, I have about 60 staff members and, and who. That's all they do is work on, on second amendment issues and kind of first right. But I can't keep track of it all. Yeah, it's, it doesn't fit in my head and maybe I'm not that smart. I don't have that much ram. But keeping track of even, even the major issues in Congress is not, not an easy thing. So we try and fight at every state level we can and certainly we've made a long fight for constitutional carry in the states. We're proud of that.

[Matt Kibbe]

So there's a lot of gun owners watching this right now and perhaps they belong to a different organization. Tell us about organization. I know you've alluded to this and if people don't get this by now, you guys prefer brass knuckles to

[Dudley Brown]

Gucci loafers.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah. Warm hugs and Gucci loafers. Tell us about the org and where you're fighting right now.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah, well, the national association for Gun Rights. I was really asked in 2006 to lead a group group that was largely a piece of paper at that time. And my friend and mentor who's very pro gun but not a gun guy, came and asked me to do what I'd done in building Rocky Mountain gunners in Colorado and do it on national level and take it over. And I looked and said no money, probably no hope of ever being paid. Lots of work. Sure, I'm a glutton for punishment mostly because it's a passion. And did. And then we started growing and growing and then we got involved as a very small group in a little race in Kentucky and helped a little known person, Rand Paul, get elected to the U.S. senate, first win the primary and then the general. And he was a very staunch advocate for us from day one. And then of course came connected with Thomas and helped him get elected and became a good friend. So we kind of built the organization on a very liberty leaning pro gun, but no compromise attitude. And we think we use a pretty coherent strategy which we spell out very clearly as an organization. We're now bigger than anyone but the nra and we're. I'm proud of the fact that we have a really great cross section and staff. So we have the Christian right libertarian or Christian right homeschooled or homeschooling or both like traditional conservative. And then we have the Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Thomas Massie Libertarian, some people fit in both categories and those. That's what my staff looks like. And you'd think, oh, they'll never get along. Baloney. Actually, it works great. Yeah, they rub off on each other really well. And you should see the eyes open in both directions in many ways, especially when you do staff events and stuff like that. And over the years that's who we hire. And they're all smarter than me and they're all like dedicated. I'm the old man now, but, but I made. I have some rules. That one is it's easier to tame a zealot than animate a corpse. And so we look for people who are really mobilized and excited and want to fight. And they figured, okay, well I'll make money later in my life and I want to do what I love. And what's better than waking up early in the morning and saying which politician do I get a kid kick today? It's actually kind of fun even at my age.

[Matt Kibbe]

So this is a membership organization.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah, we don't get. We would love to take checks from very large farms, manufacturers. We don't get that as a general rule. We're straight up membership organization and we have a 501C3 that handles our legal aspects and does all our court filings and that's, that's tax deductible. But We're a standard 501 as our main organization. And so we take members and we tell everybody, get on our email list, follow us on one of the social media platforms and see what you think. We think you'll like what you see. We're going to try and get you activated and if that makes sense to you, join as a member and we can kind of mobilize you. That's our main goal, is to mobilize gun owners. We don't think the way to get change here in D.C. is to have Gucci loafers. Well, I'm not wearing loafers. I wear cowboy boots. But you know, Gucci loafered lobbyists on K Street is not the way to win. It's mobilizing people in their district, in their state and having them apply pressure to politicians. And we get pretty good at that.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, lobbyists work for politicians.

[Dudley Brown]

That's right.

[Matt Kibbe]

They don't work for us. That's right. At Kibbe on Liberty, Freedom is a

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[Matt Kibbe]

I want to pitch you on this idea I have. So we're, I mentioned Thomas Massie and I got my badge. This is my second one and we're at $38.8 trillion in debt.

[Dudley Brown]

I think that's not updated. I think it's 39.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, it will be by the time the show is.

[Dudley Brown]

Exactly.

[Matt Kibbe]

And so, so that Thomas has gotten sideways with President Trump and they're spending all these millions of dollars against him. Fingers crossed. I think Thomas is going to make it over the finish line. And while they're going after Thomas, the president seems hell bent on abandoning key parts of the genius of his political coalition. 2024. And you mentioned the First Amendment. There's, there's all these free speech absolutists who red pilled liberals, particularly very high profile comedians and podcasters that actually thought that Democrats believed in free speech and turns out they didn't at all.

[Dudley Brown]

Imagine that.

[Matt Kibbe]

That's one aspect. Maha another huge part of the coalition. Thomas was Maha before Maha was Maha. And they've certainly had their disappointments. Although I think I very much respect the guys on the inside, Jay Bhattacharya and RFK Jr. Who are probably swimming upstream because there's a whole ecosystem, speaking of lobbyists, there's a whole ecosystem of corporate interests and lobbyists and regulatory bureaucrats. And then there's the guys like let's say Elon Musk that actually cared about that number and the whole Doge coalition and people that thought that it made pretty damn good sense to weed all of the waste and fraud and corruption out of the government. And then you had sort of the, and I don't even know where you are on this, but I'm not a forever war guy for both practical and philosophical reasons. And I think, you know, we're now in what looks to be another quagmire. So if you take these concentric circles of these different groups of the coalition, let's add gun rights in there. That's what I'm doing right now, because I haven't mentioned that before. But if you pull those communities together and they're a little frustrated right now, in the center of that is what I would call libertarian populism and promising a lot of the drain, the swamp aspects of, of what was the Trump coalition, that just doesn't seem to be happening. I think there's an upside to the downside. And when Thomas wins his primary, knock on wood, he becomes Bigger and those issues that he represents. And Thomas is good on all those issues, by the way. I think there's a potential to build. Build something really important that it's not in a person, it's not in a politician. It's in a coalition of grassroots citizens who won't give up, should keep pushing and might actually impact something. Do you buy this? Am I being too optimistic?

[Dudley Brown]

Well, I was born during the day, not yesterday. No, I don't mean to be cynical, but parts of me says yeah, I mean we'll be involved in any coalition that wants to. The Venn diagram overlaps and we say, you know, I don't have to agree with everybody on every issue, but the general principles are certainly there. And I believe all those you mentioned are largely overlapping in many ways and certainly in worldview. I'm not on foreign policy. I've moved a lot. Mainly blame Thomas. He's the one who drugged me that direction so. But that's my own personal. In our organization doesn't touch any of that. We pretty much say second Amendment and first because that's the tool you use to protect the second amendment in the modern world. So. But a coalition those are. That's not nothing new. I remember, I think we were in a. In a townhome very close here. I'm pretty sure you were there and when Rand had the first real meeting of all the coalition groups for his presidential race. And I remember very distinctly because he. That he brought up, you know I, I need obviously the libertarian crowd but everybody here is with me. But we also need the guys from the more standard conservative Republican and that's where I came from. And, and I remember him looking over at me and I just grabbed the mic and started talking and said, you guys want me because I'm with you. Not on every little thing, but that's okay. So I do believe Thomas is the. Is an important. Plebiscite is the term. I guess we are really measuring.

[Matt Kibbe]

Don't start using those fancy words. Well, not on this.

[Dudley Brown]

I'm not the intellectual. I am a knuckle dragging Neanderthal who likes to be in the trenches fighting. And so. But, but I do believe it is a. It really is gonna. We're gonna find out where the conservative movement is is and hopefully we're on the right side. I know it's close and it's closer than anybody would have ever wanted. And unfortunately I think that's a testament to low information voters who frankly only listen to one person. But we'll see. Thomas has built a lot of IOUs in that state, and they're from doing the right thing. And he's been consistent all along, so I've never seen him change. So I think when he wins, it's going to be a good opportunity for him to stand up and say, this is what happens when you stand on principle. You'll survive, even when literally a cascade of millions of dollars is spent against you, much of it probably from four foreign governments. And so anybody who's on the edge in D.C. who wants to be good, you can be. You'll survive. And it probably makes you tougher by doing it now. I'm not sure his wife Carolyn wants to be tougher. That's probably a more difficult thing to. To. To manage. I. I don't know. When I've talked to her, she's certainly.

[Matt Kibbe]

Oh, she's pretty tough.

[Dudley Brown]

She's pretty tough. But. Yeah, but like, you and I, we were. We were both at the wedding, and, And. But we had to keep it quiet. Right? I mean, we had to keep it a secret because we were worried about the mega crowd coming. And. And, And I call mega tards. These people are not thinking. They just. They're not really thinking about it. This is America first guy who you're attacking way more than Donald Trump is.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Dudley Brown]

And. And. And you're attacking him for zero reason other than that Donald Trump says he's bad guy. And so. And we were worried about them coming, running cameras. And I remember in the reception, when we sat down, sat there the first 30 minutes, all I did was send tweets and duke it out with all that crowd.

[Matt Kibbe]

The robots.

[Dudley Brown]

The robots who.

[Matt Kibbe]

Well, they are bots. And you bring up something, and I want to spend the rest of our time just talking about this because there's this inside the Beltway culture versus America. And sometimes that manifests like, oh, my Congressman and says that he's doing the right thing. And this always used to be the problem. Like, they would say one thing back in their district, and then they would come back to Washington and do the other thing. Well, it's getting harder and harder to do that. And even when, you know, when Trump appeals to his authority, which is what he does, like, I am maga. Whatever I say, like, if I want to grab your guns, that's what MAGA is. Now, if I tread harder, Daddy. Yeah. If I want to say that the Epstein files are a hoax, that's maga. Now, it's not actually working that well. As powerful as a personality as he is, people have competing sources for information and knowledge and they can. And right now MAGA Inc. Is going after the podcasters and they haven't run the numbers I guess because the podcasters are going after are orders of magnitude bigger than the thing that they think they're protecting. So I tend to be quite white pilled about this. I think I have confidence actually in. I don't like the phrase low information voter because we're all low information. Right. There's so much going on we couldn't like. Unless you're weirdos like us who spend all of our time trying to figure out what's going on.

[Dudley Brown]

They're weird, admit it.

[Matt Kibbe]

And you would almost be crazy and irrational to spend all your time to figure out what Washington was trying to do to you. But because so much is decentralized now and because they can't censor everybody, they certainly tried during Most pronounced in the Biden administration. They've tried to stifle those voices that will speak truth to power. But I think it's impossible. It's like whack a mole now. And the fact that loyal Trumpists are now going after the podcasters is kind of laughable because it's like dude, it's too late. Cat's out of the bag, cows out of the barn. And you have a lot of independent voices that are going to tell you very uncomfortable truths about the person that you thought was on your side.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah, you might have been able to do that before the interwebs but, and before every had so many different news sources but you know, when, when it was truly the big newspapers and the TVs but you can't do that anymore and it just doesn't work. I mean you can manipulate, there's and there's a lot of good manipulators out there but that only lasts for so long before you get called out. So I, I, I don't, I don't know. I've seen an awful lot of self owns by MAGA Inc. Especially the, you know, standing up on in the White House and everybody holding up the files and look at this, the Epstein files, they're coming out. Really?

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah.

[Dudley Brown]

Okay. Really? Yeah. I'm not sure that worked.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah, I would have, I would have hope that those particular individuals would have been the most pissed off about being put in the position of being useful idiots but they just keep soldiering on I guess. It's a business. And this gets back to your business model which is your only job is to represent the issues that your membership cares about why they joined and if it costs you a relationship in inside the Beltway.

[Dudley Brown]

I mean, I like it because I do like some people here who maybe not don't always vote with you, but. But so, you know, if you want friend. Want to be loved by a puppy, you know, politics is a little. A little more brutal. And after doing it for so long,

[Matt Kibbe]

by the way, cats are more ideologically aligned dogs.

[Dudley Brown]

Really?

[Matt Kibbe]

Dogs. Lean commie cats, sort of vegetarian.

[Dudley Brown]

Now that I've never heard.

[Matt Kibbe]

So it's objectively true.

[Dudley Brown]

Okay.

[Matt Kibbe]

The science is settled.

[Dudley Brown]

I'll have to take your word for it. So I travel too much to have either right now.

[Matt Kibbe]

I just offended most of your membership.

[Dudley Brown]

Exactly. They're all dog people.

[Matt Kibbe]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dudley Brown]

You didn't tell me what you think here. You didn't like tell me what you're tasting or what the nose was.

[Matt Kibbe]

By the way. This is amazing. This and for people. I don't know if we said specifically Jack Daniels single barrel. Barrel proof. If. If I.

[Dudley Brown]

130. What's the proof on that? I've forgotten.

[Matt Kibbe]

It's.

[Dudley Brown]

I think it's 134.

[Matt Kibbe]

65. 130 proof. 130. 65.1% alcohol.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah.

[Matt Kibbe]

So it's a big boy.

[Dudley Brown]

It's a big boy.

[Matt Kibbe]

But that's my. That's my preference because you get an extraction of that flavor.

[Dudley Brown]

You do.

[Matt Kibbe]

So this one we're not going to put in Coke if you guys don't like.

[Dudley Brown]

Yeah, no Cokes, no mixers.

[Matt Kibbe]

You'll get kicked out of here if you try that. So cheers to this. This is Cheers.

[Dudley Brown]

Thank you.

[Matt Kibbe]

Beautiful gift. Cheers. Okay, let's wrap up. Give people that care about gun rights, give us some marching orders. What are the OR three battlegrounds? And it could be a state, it could be federal. What are we fighting for and against right now that matters most.

[Dudley Brown]

Well, I'll stay federal just because it's. Right now. You're talking to a lot of different people getting specifics in states like Pennsylvania and North Carolina. But first off is hold politicians accountable, make them pay. Don't listen to this lesser of two evils garbage. I saw your Jerry Garcia quote. That's great. I had an old pastor's quote. He said the lesser of two evils is really the evil of two lessors.

[Matt Kibbe]

I like it.

[Dudley Brown]

I think those apply. So hold them accountable in election. That is the time in which you get to do to them what they did to you in the legislative season. And don't let them. Don't ever do tell a politician. Oh, I always vote for Republicans or I always vote this way because you just put a sign on your forehead said don't listen to me. I mean all they really care about is re election. But you know we want you involved in the fight. So you know gunrights.org is our website. You can find me at unrightsprez on Twitter and of course we have a big Facebook page. We think our email list is really solid. We tell you when the fight is happening and what to do when it makes the most sense. Right now we're pushing for constitutional carry sponsors and the federal bill for Thomas and Senator Mike Lee's bill. Senator Mike Lee just introduced that bill recently. So we're kind of pushing that one fast. Fast is see if we can get half the US Senators on board which should be relatively easy since you got an awful lot of them from states that already have constitutional carry. And how dare you not want that to apply to California or citizens in New Jersey. But those are the big battles as well as paying attention and opposing when really bad things happen and expect it can happen under any administration, under any Republican or Democrat leadership, it doesn't matter. Some of the worst stuff ever passed passed under with a split chamber and Republicans just went along so as not to make too many problems. So we're willing to fight and you know, if you're willing to fight, join with us.

[Matt Kibbe]

So all right, cool. Glad we caught up.

[Dudley Brown]

Okay,

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[Matt Kibbe]

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