Bath | 14

Summary

Kill List: Episode 14 - "Bath"

Overview

In Episode 14 of Kill List, titled "Bath," Wondery and Novel delve into the harrowing true story of Lisa, an ordinary woman whose life spirals into terror after receiving a series of menacing messages. Hosted by tech journalist Carl Miller, the episode explores themes of obsession, control, and systemic failures within law enforcement and support institutions. As Lisa battles to uncover the truth and protect herself, the narrative exposes the dark underbelly of the murder-for-hire industry on the dark web and highlights the profound personal and societal costs of such crimes.

---

1. Settling into Bath and the Onset of Terror

Timestamp: [00:32]

Carl Miller sets the scene in Bath, a serene city in southwest England, where Lisa is finally feeling at home after weeks of moving. However, her sense of security is shattered when she begins receiving ominous text messages.

Notable Quote:

Lisa: "I'd just moved into my new flat, gotten settled on everything, and then all of a sudden I get this text." [00:47]

Initially dismissing the messages as spam, Lisa's skepticism fades as the threats become more personal and sinister.

---

2. Escalating Threats and Initial Police Response

Timestamp: [02:00]

Lisa's situation intensifies as the messages morph from vague threats to explicit demands, including coercion and blackmail. Concerned, she turns to her sister and brother-in-law, Naval, for support. Despite the alarming nature of the threats, the police prove ineffective, advising her to ignore the messages due to their untraceable origin.

Notable Quote:

Lisa: "They just said, you know, it's really strange, but just ignore it. I'm sure it's nothing serious." [02:36]

This lack of action from law enforcement leaves Lisa vulnerable and desperate for answers.

---

3. Discovery of Surveillance Devices

Timestamp: [03:53]

A turning point occurs when Lisa discovers a mysterious device under her sink, resembling a camera. Realizing the gravity of her situation, she contacts a friend who identifies the device as a camera, leading her to suspect that someone close to her is involved.

Notable Quote:

Lisa: "It was sickening because I thought it must be someone close to me." [04:49]

---

4. Suspecting Naval and Confrontation

Timestamp: [11:38]

Lisa's investigation leads her to her brother-in-law, Naval, whom she has trusted for over a decade. Despite his seemingly benign nature and supportive relationship, Lisa uncovers evidence on Naval's laptop that implicates him in her surveillance and harassment.

Notable Quote:

Lisa: "I couldn't make sense of it, so I just texted a friend." [04:46]

Lisa: "I looked through his Internet history and I found...it was really a sinking feeling." [13:10]

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5. Police Inaction and Continued Harassment

Timestamp: [19:46]

Despite presenting substantial evidence against Naval, including footage from the surveillance camera and incriminating internet history, the British police's sluggish response prolongs Lisa's ordeal. This inaction allows the harassment to escalate, with Naval continuing to send threatening messages and even involving her sister, Phoebe.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller: "While the police apparently sit on their hands..." [20:32]

---

6. The Kill List and Dark Web Discoveries

Timestamp: [24:27]

Carl Miller introduces the concept of the "Kill List," a dark web platform facilitating murder-for-hire orders. Through investigating this site, Miller uncovers that Lisa herself becomes a target, with orders not only against her but also her sister Phoebe and Naval.

Notable Quote:

Unknown Voice: "Thanks for picking up the phone...we discovered a kill order on the Hitman for Hire site." [27:37]

This discovery reveals the extent of Naval's manipulation, using the Kill List to fabricate threats and justify his actions.

---

7. Struggles for Justice and Institutional Failures

Timestamp: [35:05]

Lisa's quest for justice is marred by prolonged delays and systemic failures within the UK's criminal justice system. Despite Naval's evident wrongdoing, bureaucratic inertia prevents timely prosecution, leading to further psychological trauma for Lisa.

Notable Quote:

Phoebe: "It was getting ridiculous at this point." [37:52]

Institutional shortcomings extend beyond the police to include inadequate support from mental health services and unresponsive political representatives.

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8. Reaching Out for Support and Continued Disillusionment

Timestamp: [38:48]

Desperate for assistance, Lisa approaches her Member of Parliament, Vera Hobhouse, hoping for advocacy. However, the encounter leaves her disheartened as the MP appears indifferent, further isolating Lisa and exacerbating her mental health struggles.

Notable Quote:

Phoebe: "I went back to my office and sat at my desk and cried." [41:13]

---

9. Conviction and Lingering Injustices

Timestamp: [45:46]

After an exhaustive two-year battle, Naval finally pleads guilty to stalking and related offenses. While this marks a semblance of justice for Lisa, the delayed response means she has already endured significant emotional and psychological distress, highlighting the inefficacies of the system.

Notable Quote:

Phoebe: "This is the right thing. ... I hope he's okay." [49:35]

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of Lisa's story, emphasizing the urgent need for systemic reforms to support victims and ensure timely justice.

---

10. Reflections and Systemic Critique

Timestamp: [53:21]

Producer Caroline Thornham provides an insightful analysis of Lisa's case, comparing it to typical cases and underscoring the extraordinary delays and systemic failures that compounded her suffering.

Notable Quote:

Caroline Thornham: "Lisa's account of this meeting is the one that I find the most difficult to understand...a judge actually found that all of these delays should mitigate in Naval's favor." [51:44]

The narrative underscores how bureaucratic inefficiencies can prolong victims' anguish, making Lisa's eventual conviction a bittersweet resolution.

---

Conclusion

Episode 14 of Kill List presents a compelling and distressing account of Lisa's struggle against personal threats and institutional neglect. Through meticulous storytelling and critical examination of systemic flaws, the episode not only highlights the perils of the dark web's criminal enterprises but also calls attention to the urgent need for more responsive and supportive mechanisms for victims. Lisa's journey serves as a poignant reminder of the human cost behind the statistics and underscores the importance of vigilance, advocacy, and reform in combating such pervasive threats.

---

Credits

Kill List is hosted by Carl Miller, with reporting by Caroline Thornham and production by a dedicated team including Tom Wright, Jay Kotaevich, Anna Sinfield, and others. The episode features original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell, among other contributors.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandery subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandri in the Wandary app or on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's Carl. Before we get going, I just wanted to let you know that this episode contains references to suicide and self harm. There are links in the show notes to Resources in case you're affected by the things we talk about.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Wondering.

[Carl Miller]

It's a bright spring day and Lisa is settling into her new flat in Bath, a small, picturesque city in the southwest of England. And after weeks of moving vans and unpacking, the place is finally starting to feel like home.

[Lisa]

I'd just moved into my new flat, gotten settled on everything, and then all of a sudden I get this text.

[Naval]

At first the text looks like spam.

[Lisa]

It didn't have an actual phone number, it just had words where the number would be.

[Carl Miller]

But when Lisa looks closer, she sees that this text contains a sinister message.

[Lisa]

We have explicit photos and videos of you. We want more from you. Send more photos and videos of you of an explicit nature and we won't send whatever we already have to your family members. I thought it was funny. I thought it was a joke. I was quite confident that they didn't have any real images of me, anything.

[Phoebe]

Explicit like they said they did.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa doesn't pay this message too much attention. It looks like the kind of stupid scam message that we all get every now and then. So she doesn't respond and gets back to organizing the flat. But then.

[Lisa]

About a week later I got another one saying, I know that you've just moved into a new flat. I know things about one of my ex boyfriends that was quite secret and new family members names as well, and was threatening to send things to my family members, which I think that was the first time I kind of took it a bit more seriously.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa's sister lives nearby with her husband, so naturally they're the first people Lisa turns to for help.

[Lisa]

They just said, you know, it's really strange, but just ignore it. I'm sure it's nothing serious.

[Naval]

Over the following weeks, the messages keep coming. There'll be nothing for days. And then a burst of new threats in text messages and then emails. And it's not just Lisa who's getting them.

[Lisa]

It got to the point where emails were sent to my family and it looked like they contained photoshopped images of me, explicit ones. They sent kind of what was assumed to be sex noises as well, and claimed those were recordings of me, but I obviously knew that they weren't.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa tries going to the police. But she says they tell her there's not much they can do. There's no way to trace the messages, so she should just ignore them. Then, as suddenly and unexpectedly as they'd started, the messages stop. About a month after the last message, Lisa's having a shower. She turns off the water and opens the door when she catches sight of something in the corner of her eye.

[Lisa]

Something fell from underneath my sink. It looked like some kind of electric device, like a battery powered device. And I thought it was really strange at first. I thought it might be something to do with the plumbing, but didn't seem likely. It was covered in kind of tape, really strong tape to stick it up under the sink, which was kind of directly facing my shower. I took all the tape off to kind of see what it was. I couldn't make sense of it, so I just texted a friend. I just said, I'm quite concerned. I don't know what this is and it's in my flat. He called me and asked me on a video call, show it up to the camera and show all the parts. And he said, that's a camera.

[Carl Miller]

Doesn't that completely change what you thought was happening?

[Lisa]

Yeah, it was sickening because I thought it must be someone close to me.

[Carl Miller]

My name is Carl Miller. Since 2020, I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered. We broke into a scam murder for Hire website. On the dark web, we could see every order being placed, real money being paid to have real people murdered. The tally of these targets now stands in the hundreds. We call it the Kill List.

[Naval]

So far, we've managed to help law enforcement arrest or Convict More than 30 people all around the world. In covering those stories, I've learned that the Kill List is a window into a world that more often than not concerns violence and threats against women like Lisa. And as she tries to get support for this new and unexpected threat she's facing, Lisa finds that uncovering the identity of her stalker is only half the battle. Because what do you do when out of nowhere someone decides to surveil and threaten you? And not one of the institutions we all rely on seem to take it seriously?

[Carl Miller]

This episode is brought to you by Audible, where you can find audiobooks and exclusive content to provide inspiration, comfort, insight or guidance. Whatever you're looking for. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com list or text list. L I S T to 500. 500.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation, they said yes, yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about? You insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] switch.

[Naval]

$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month.

[Carl Miller]

New customers on first three month plan only.

[Naval]

Taxes and fees extra speeds lower above 40 gigabyte.

[Carl Miller]

From Wandery and novel. I'm Carmilla and this is Kill List. That night, Lisa hardly sleeps. She keeps turning everything over in her mind. She's certain that the camera must be connected to the strange messages. There's no way this can all be a coincidence. And that means that whoever is threatening her is somebody very close. Someone who has access to her new home. The next morning, she calls the police.

[Lisa]

The police asked whether it could be anyone that I knew. I told them it could only really be feasibly two people. My landlord, who had been in my bathroom doing some tiling, something like that, but I knew it wasn't likely. Or my brother in law who'd been around to help quite a bit. I really didn't want it to have been my brother in law because he was literally like a brother to me.

[Naval]

Lisa's brother in law is called Neval. They first met when Lisa was 15 and Neval 17. He just started dating Lisa's sister, who we're going to be calling Phoebe. Naval and Phoebe were childhood sweethearts, the first relationship either of them had ever had. They got married in France in 2019 and Lisa was a bridesmaid at the wedding. When Naval, as is tradition, gave a.

[Carl Miller]

Speech, I'd say a few words about my wonderful, wonderful bride. The strongest woman and the nicest so I've just ever met and so happy to be with her. She is literally the light of my life every day. So Lisa's known Naval for more than a decade. And although their relationship hasn't always been easy, over the years she's started to feel like she can really trust him.

[Lisa]

When I went to him about this for advice, he'd be really understanding and caring and he would, you know, try and hook me a lot. You know, he'd always been really there for me.

[Carl Miller]

During the COVID pandemic, Lisa struggled with the isolation of lockdown. Her sister Phoebe was sticking rigorously to the rules and wouldn't let Lisa come around and visit so Naval would secretly take their dog around to Lisa's flat to help give her some company during the lonely lockdown months. And during those visits, Lisa would confide in Nival about intimate details of her life and he would listen and offer sympathetic advice. So as Lisa contemplates this new possibility, it's incredibly hard for her to believe that Naval is a culprit. He's well liked by her family, he's clever, he's got a PhD in computer science and he's always helping Lisa's parents out with one thing or another. He's nerdy, a little odd, but he seems fundamentally sweet natured and he certainly makes Lisa's sister Phoebe happy. So how can she believe that this clever, sweet man could do something as sick as put a camera in her bathroom to secretly film her a few days later? It's the weekend, a Saturday, and their paranoid questions firing around Lisa's head become too much. She needs answers and she sees an opportunity to get them. Phoebe and Naval are on holiday and won't be back until Sunday. And Lisa has a key to their flat.

[Lisa]

I decided to take the spare key, go round and have a look through his laptop myself, because I knew his password. We were very close, so we had talked about our passwords before. It was the middle of June, nice day. While I was walking there, I was kind of in a daze as everyone was happy and walking to the park and having picnics. I felt so unsafe at the time. I knew someone close to me is trying to do something seriously wrong here.

[Naval]

Lisa lets herself into the flat and grabs Naval's laptop. She sits in the living room and types in the password.

[Lisa]

Didn't really know what I was looking for, but I tried his Amazon account to see what he'd been buying recently. And I found in his recent purchases this Gorilla Glue tape. And it was the same one that I'd found in my sink, a 64 gig memory card. Again, the same one that I'd found. It was really sinking feeling. I looked through his Internet history and I found some searches about how to control WI fi hubs as well.

[Carl Miller]

Exactly the same wifi that's just been installed in Lisa's flat.

[Lisa]

Presumably it could have been to access my Internet searches and get, I don't know, potentially get information on me to blackmail me further.

[Carl Miller]

In a matter of seconds, everything Lisa thought she knew about her relationship with Naval has been completely upended. But now, after so many weeks of anxiety and confusion, she knows the truth.

[Lisa]

It felt triumphant in the sense of just knowing, because at that time I was feeling quite unsafe. And now at that point I knew this is the person that I need to stay far, far away from.

[Naval]

The following Monday morning, a friend is sleeping on Lisa's sofa. She asked him to stay over because she doesn't feel safe.

[Carl Miller]

So it's Lisa's friend who answers the door to find Neval on Lisa's doorstep, asking to come in.

[Lisa]

And my friend just said, I don't think that's a good idea, and closed the door. He continued knocking. Tried calling me and texting me. The text said, I need to speak to you urgently. Please can I just speak to you even if it's through the door. I knew he wasn't going to go away easily so I went to the front door and I opened it and I just said, go away, and closed it again. He carried on knocking.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa's friend goes back to the door and starts shouting at Naval, at which point Naval starts shouting back.

[Lisa]

I just remember him shouting the words, they were going to kill Benji, which is my sisters and his dog.

[Carl Miller]

They were going to kill Benji.

[Phoebe]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

It didn't make any sense. But my friend didn't give him any time to explain himself. He just told him that he was a creep and to go away.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa's not exactly sure how Neval realized that. She discovered the camera, it wasn't broadcasting, only recording. She thinks that his laptop was connected to his other devices. And so when she went into it, Naval got a notification and could see what she was looking at. And having been firmly told to go, he promptly leaves Lisa's flat. About an hour or so later, the doorbell goes again. It's Phoebe, Lisa's sister.

[Lisa]

She came in and she just looked like she'd seen a ghost. She was just completely pale. She just. The first thing she did was apologize to me. She just said, I can't believe he did that. I'm so sorry. Basically, she told me what he'd told her, that he was threatened by a group of people, or two people, to put a camera in my bathroom. Apparently they had video footage of him and my sister and they had pictures of their flat. They knew where they went cycling, they knew where they walked the dog. When he was telling her all of this, he was sobbing and pleading with her to not abandon him and just insisting. He swore he was telling the truth. He didn't do anything. He was threatened. And I asked her, do you believe him? And she said, I don't know, do you? And I just said no. And I could see the disappointment in her face. It really did seem like she wanted to believe him.

[Carl Miller]

Phoebe doesn't know what to make of all of this. On the one hand, the whole story Naval is telling seems completely incredible, but even so, he's her husband. And Phoebe is struggling to come to terms with the idea that any of this could be real. So Phoebe tells Naval to leave and go back to Manchester. For her part, Lisa calls the police again, who send an officer to take a fresh statement.

[Lisa]

She asked, if it comes to it and, you know, it does go to court, would you want a conviction to happen? Would you be comfortable with that? And I felt so guilty for some reason because it was someone that I'd cared for like family for 11 years. At the same time, I did look back at things and realize he had been inappropriate towards me quite a lot in the past.

[Carl Miller]

Like, inappropriate in what way?

[Lisa]

When I'd introduced him to a new boyfriend or something, he'd ask, have you two had sex yet? When I was 15, he would ask me almost every time I saw him, have you lost your virginity yet?

[Carl Miller]

And by the time then you kind of just brush these things off. Did you, like, just. That's what he's like.

[Lisa]

I chalked it down to immaturity.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

And a lot of people in the family did. Whenever he was kind of strange in that way. Obviously it was a bit more sinister than that.

[Carl Miller]

So what did you decide then, when the police told you, do you want to proceed with a prosecution?

[Lisa]

I said yes, because I thought it would be for the best, especially because my sister was kind of undecided and she didn't know what to believe. I thought if they investigate it further, then they can probably get some hard evidence as to whether it was him or not. But by that point, I had already made up my mind anyway.

[Carl Miller]

In a parallel universe, this would be the beginning of the end of Lisa's story. The police would investigate, Naval would be arrested, he'd be told not to contact Lisa again and then put on trial. We've seen that it is possible for the police to respond to threats like this quickly. In the us, France and Germany, we've seen that results can happen fast. But in true British fashion, Lisa's case joins a queue, a very long queue. And despite promising to investigate in the months that follow, she says the police were unable to give her even an update.

[Lisa]

I had to contact them a lot and nothing had been done. I'd asked them, have you looked into it any further? Have you looked at the footage on the camera?

[Carl Miller]

That's mad.

[Lisa]

But nothing had been done.

[Carl Miller]

Whilst the police apparently sit on their hands, the text messages start up again.

[Lisa]

He still continued to send texts and threats, only they got more serious. The text kind of sounded like someone trying to portray a movie criminal. He would kind of imply that he was or this anonymous person was watching my sister's house, watching wherever she went. And I went because he began texting her too, saying things like I saw you outside of your house walking the dog or I saw you and your family in a coffee shop. Be careful, you shouldn't have gone to the police. We'll never leave you alone.

[Carl Miller]

The stalking and harassment then morphs into something even more sinister. Lisa finds a package has been delivered to her home addressed to her with bags of cocaine and mdma.

[Lisa]

I handed it straight over to the police. They tested it and it was positive for drugs.

[Naval]

As Lisa waits for the police to step in and actually do something, the threats are escalating fast. And it's at exactly this moment that someone goes onto the dark web and starts making active attempts to have her killed.

[Unknown]

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[Carl Miller]

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[Unknown]

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[Carl Miller]

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[Carl Miller]

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[Carl Miller]

Two months after she discovered the camera in her bathroom, Lisa receives a message not from me, but from a stranger.

[Lisa]

On Facebook saying they'd come across my name and my details on a Hitman website.

[Carl Miller]

The person tells Lisa someone has been posting her private information on public dark web forums and this good Samaritan is getting in touch to warn Lisa that someone seemed to wish her harm. The person making the threat goes by the alias I hate Lisa.

[Naval]

They post Lisa's full name, her address and mobile phone number, as well as photos of her and her sister Phoebe.

[Unknown]

Horrible, horrible person. Please dox she. Do many crimes but never pay.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa immediately sends the screenshots to the police. Within hours, the officer leading the case is standing in Lisa's living room to take another statement from her.

[Phoebe]

We had a conversation about it and he said that he would be arrested.

[Carl Miller]

The police have been analyzing the camera Lisa found in her bathroom and they found a significant, really substantial piece of evidence footage of Nival setting the camera up alongside footage of Lisa. On the one hand, Lisa is relieved that the police have actually managed to uncover solid evidence linking Nival to the crime. On the other hand, all they've really done is to take the memory card from the camera and review the footage. It was already in the police's possession. All they needed to do was to plug it in. And yet this seemingly simple act has taken nearly three months. A little after 10pm on 13 October 2021, four months after she first reported the crime, Lisa finally gets the news she's been waiting for. The police are on their way back from Manchester and Naval has been arrested. But any reassurance Lisa feels is short lived. Naval has been released on bail pending further investigation. As part of his bail conditions, he's not allowed to contact Lisa or Phoebe or set foot in Bath. He's supposed to stay at his mum's house in Manchester and he'll have a curfew.

[Phoebe]

It was a bit anticlimactic in the sense that he was in police custody for a few hours and then he was back out again. One of the things I did find interesting was he had asked them when they dropped him back home in the car, he'd asked them, if anything happens again, will I be arrested again? Almost as if he were kind of trying to gauge how far he could push. And then interestingly, from, from that point on, when, you know, the police had told him, yeah, you would be arrested.

[Lisa]

Again, nothing else happened, just went silent.

[Carl Miller]

That silence lasts for about a month until Lisa gets a call from another number that she doesn't recognize. Hello? Hi there, Lisa. Thanks for picking up the phone. We haven't spoken before, but my name is Carl Miller. I'm a journalist based in London. Can I have five minutes of your time to talk? The reason I'm calling Lisa, in fact the whole reason we met and that you're hearing this story, is that we discovered a kill order on the Hitman for Hire site. We were investigating and this order targeted Lisa.

[Unknown]

Can you do a job in Bath, UK for this girl? Easiest way, kill or maim. She runs late in the evening at 8 to 9:30pm every two to three day and weekend around 2 to 3pm.

[Carl Miller]

The messages begin in August, the same time that Naval was claiming to have been threatened by shady gangsters. The messages are written in a broken English, like someone's ridiculous idea of how a gangster might write in apartment most of time.

[Unknown]

As long as she is badly hurt or dead, we do not care.

[Carl Miller]

A couple of weeks after the first messages, I Hate Lisa uploads a new kill order. But this time they're not targeting Lisa. They're focusing on her sister Phoebe. But they don't want Phoebe to be hurt.

[Unknown]

No beating or hurting, just intimidation. Needs to feel very threatening so will not mess with us again. I need you to say, are you Phoebe? Do not trust Lisa. We will no longer come after you, Naval or Benji.

[Carl Miller]

Then a few days later, a third order, this time targeting Lisa again. But it's not a kill order. Instead the user wants the hitman to frame her.

[Unknown]

How much to plant drugs in her apartment or on her and get her arrested. I want her to definitely go to prison.

[Carl Miller]

And finally, a month later, in early October 2021, there's a fourth and final order. This time targeting Naval and coming just a week before he was arrested.

[Unknown]

Beat him to an inch of his life. Don't know where he is at the moment, but he should be back at some point.

[Carl Miller]

So there's not just one target, but three. Lisa, Phoebe and Nival. Well, four if you count Benji, the dog, and four different requests. Killing, intimidation, planting drugs and a beating. And given everything Lisa's been through already, when we break this news to her, she's not in the least bit surprised. The way Naval is using the kill list is unlike anything we've seen before. He's committing a crime in order to cover up another crime. He's weaving a web of illusion to try and back up his strange alibi about being threatened by gangsters as the explanation for why he stalked and harassed Lisa. But underpinning that bizarre strategy is a much more sinister motivation.

[Lisa]

I did think it was particularly interesting from those messages. One of them said, I'm a good looking girl and the person could do whatever they wanted to me. It seemed almost like an invitation to sexually assault me, which would fit into his cover story of someone else other than him wanting some kind of perverse footage of me and, you know, sex motive.

[Carl Miller]

With Lisa's permission, my team and I hand the police everything we have about the kill order, including a payment of $479 in Bitcoin that we can trace, which was made to pay for the hit. By tracing the Bitcoin, the police should be able to tie Naval to the kill order. Between Naval's devices, the text messages, the camera footage, and now the kill order and the Bitcoin payment attached to it, the police have everything they need to swiftly investigate this case and bring charges. 12 months pass, naval is interviewed by the police three times. They gather more evidence, including a PDF on how to send anonymous messages, as well as similar search requests on Reddit. And yet no charges are brought. Essentially, from Lisa's perspective, nothing happens. Naval remains out on bail and Lisa feels no closer to getting justice. In fact, the injustices keep piling up. Lisa says that in her view, Naval repeatedly breaks his bail conditions. Not long after his arrest, he sends a text to Lisa's sister Phoebe. He tells Phoebe that he's taken an overdose of sleeping pills.

[Phoebe]

She was pretty cut up about the whole thing, so she called my dad straight away when she got it and he called their family. His mum went up to his bedroom, found him and he was hospitalized, I think just for the night. We hated what had happened, but there was a lot of speculation as to whether he'd taken an overdose to kind of get attention from my sister again because he really wanted to speak to her.

[Carl Miller]

That isn't the only time Nival messages Phoebe throughout this period. It's nothing threatening, per se, a happy birthday here. How are you doing there? But Lisa still finds it hard to understand why he isn't facing consequences for breaching his bail conditions. Meanwhile, Neval carries on with his life as if nothing has happened. He starts a new job as a software engineer at a company in Bristol, a city not far from Bath. He posts photos on LinkedIn, laughing with colleagues at a company away day. He looks like a totally normal guy in his 20s, a little nerdy, but athletic, with long shaggy hair and a big grin.

[Naval]

Six months later, in December 2022, Naval is pictured on holiday on the Spanish island of Tenerife, seemingly in breach of his bail conditions again. When Lisa sees the pictures, she calls the police.

[Phoebe]

And when I had questioned the police about him being on holiday, they had told me, well, the bail conditions, they were partly put in place for his own mental health and his own mental wellbeing. So that was really disheartening. It just didn't seem like at that point he was suffering any consequences.

[Carl Miller]

It's been 18 months since Lisa found the camera in her bathroom and still no end in sight. But 12 weeks later, in April 2023, Lisa gets news that she hopes will change everything. The police tell Lisa that they finished their investigation and are charging Naval with three crimes. Stalking with serious alarm or distress, voyeurism, and sending communications conveying a threatening message. Naval is looking at serious jail time, potentially up to nine years in prison. And when Lisa Googles it, she finds out that once cases land in the hands of the Crown Prosecution Service, it's usually only about 10 weeks before they go to court.

[Phoebe]

I mean, the police were so unbelievably slow. We just thought if it were passed over to some other people, surely anyone else, surely it would be faster. Yeah, at that point, it did feel like progress had been made.

[Carl Miller]

For once in this whole story, it feels like the system is finally on Lisa's side. After waiting for so long, it should now only be a matter of weeks before she comes face to face with Naval in court and finally gets justice.

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[Carl Miller]

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[Carl Miller]

After Lisa learns that the Crown Prosecution Service is taking over her case, she waits to find out when Naval will appear in court. She's hoping a couple of months at the Most. But then 10 weeks pass with no news. Then 10 more weeks pass with no contact from anyone at CPS to explain what's going on. It's been two years now since Lisa found the camera. In her bathroom and her patience finally snaps.

[Phoebe]

I wrote to them and explained the situation. Essentially, the police are telling me it's sitting with you and there aren't any updates and. And it's getting ridiculous at this point.

[Carl Miller]

Naval, meanwhile, has announced on his LinkedIn that he's going traveling in Japan and South Korea, whilst Lisa feels utterly powerless.

[Phoebe]

I feel like to be taken seriously, like you need money or some level of power. For a long time I was walking around with this flimsy little rape alarm. That was it. That was all I had to make me feel safe. So it was, it was nothing. I didn't have the money or the resource or the connections.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa decides to turn to someone who does have connections and power. Her Member of Parliament. This is her local representative in the UK's national legislative body. And this is where Lisa finally gets some luck. Lisa's MP is a woman who has been campaigning tirelessly for the rights of victims of sexual offences.

[Vera Hobhouse]

We are letting survivors down.

[Lisa]

It is shocking.

[Carl Miller]

Her name is Vera Hobhouse and here she is talking at a debate in Parliament about tackling violence against women and girls.

[Lisa]

We absolutely need better training and more resources for prosecutors and judges to punish perpetrators and deliver the justice that victims and survivors so desperately need.

[Carl Miller]

So when Lisa arrives at the constituency office for a scheduled meeting about her case, she hopes that Vera Hobhouse will help.

[Phoebe]

I walked into her office, she was kind of sat at her computer. She didn't really look up or anything. And eventually she kind of turned away from her computer, greeted me and asked me what my reason was for coming in.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa does her best to lay out the whole story, although she's barely gotten the words out. When the questions start coming back and she says, not in the way that she expected.

[Phoebe]

I was really taken aback by how kind of combative questioning she was. She was almost challenging me, I think. She asked me, like, what she was supposed to do about it and I just kind of said, well, you know, I thought you might be able to put some pressure on or something. She told me, well, you know, I'm not the Prime Minister. Like, I don't have power to, to change things. And so she kind of said, like, oh, well, I can write a letter if you want. And that was about it. And at that point she turned away from me and she was just back on her computer typing away. Yeah, I had a 20 minute appointment, I think, and I was in there for about five minutes.

[Carl Miller]

Gosh.

[Phoebe]

I went back to my office and sat at my desk and cried.

[Carl Miller]

Of all the institutional failings Lisa's facing. Her account of this meeting is the one that I find the most difficult to understand. Here we have a politician who's made it her mission to combat misogyny and in particular, sex crimes. And yet Lisa claims she struggled to even get more than five minutes of our MPs time. We put Lisa's frustrations to Vera Hobhouse, who in a written statement told us.

[Vera Hobhouse]

I am very sorry to hear that Lisa left feeling distressed and upset. When cases like Lisa's are investigated by the police and are in the judicial system, there is indeed little that I can do. I always point out to my constituents that I cannot interfere in police or judicial matters, so my constituents expectations are managed. It is, however, within my power to advocate for my constituents to the cps. And this is what I offered Lisa at this time.

[Carl Miller]

To be clear, Lisa's MP did offer to write a letter to the CPS on Lisa's behalf, an offer which, after their meeting, Lisa ultimately chose not to take up.

[Vera Hobhouse]

Lisa left a consent form to allow us to write to the CPS on her behalf. Once she'd sent us all the details of her case, we received no further communication from her, so could take no further action.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa says she feels like no one in a position of power has been taking her or what's happened to her seriously enough and now she just feels trapped.

[Phoebe]

It's hard to put into words, but when things like this happen, that there's so much narrative around being a victim and because it was going on for so long, I was kind of stuck in this limbo of being a victim and I didn't want to be. I was spiraling with my mental health because it just wasn't getting any better. I was just so stuck. No one was taking me seriously. But, yeah, I started self harming quite a lot, which was difficult. Yeah, I was drinking quite heavily at times throughout that period as well, and that kind of numbed the pain. So that would be especially bad because I would wake up with cuts that I didn't even remember giving myself. My perception of myself was just terrible.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa went to her doctor for help with her mental health, but they told her that the NHS could only offer cognitive behavioral therapy, which she says didn't feel like the kind of talking therapy that she needed. She had a couple of private therapy sessions, but couldn't afford to keep them up long term. And in the end it was her dad who helped her through.

[Phoebe]

He told me, you're not a victim like you are so, so much more than this, you can't let what he has done affect you for the rest of your life and affect you in this way. You're gonna do so many more things and be so much better than the way he sees you. So, yeah, that did help make me feel stronger, I suppose, because I think seeing yourself as a victim is a really unhealthy headspace to be in.

[Naval]

We have so many kill list cases where the victim hasn't got justice at all, where people like Lisa just get left in limbo forever watching over their shoulder, confident that they no tried to have them harmed, but sat within a system unwilling or unable to get them the resolution they deserve. But in the end, this is not one of those stories. Despite everything, this is a story where the perpetrator does have to answer for their crimes.

[Carl Miller]

The change in momentum begins with a phone call from the CCPs in autumn 2023. Up until now, Naval has always stuck by this incredible, fantastical story that he stalked Lisa because he was being threatened by gangsters. But on 18 October 2023, to Lisa's astonishment, Nival finally admits what she'd long known and he pleads guilty to all the charges. We haven't spoken to Naval, so we don't know why he decided to finally plead guilty. However, one factor might be that he will get a third off any prison sentence he might receive. And this is the very last chance for him to take that deal. Four weeks later, on a cold November morning, Lisa and Phoebe are ushered through a side entrance of Bristol Crown Court. They walk up the steps to court number 10 and take their seats next to Naval's family.

[Phoebe]

His mum, his two sisters and his brother were there and it felt like we were outnumbered, so we just kind of sat down just a few metres away from them. The reality of the situation kind of started to sink in and there was nothing really to say. We just sat there in silence.

[Carl Miller]

Lisa and Phoebe are shown new seats on the other side of the room. And quickly the judge and the defense barrister enter the court. And then Neval is brought in. It's the first time Lisa's seen him since the day she confronted him about the camera.

[Phoebe]

He looked cold, he looked scared, he was handcuffed, which made it feel really real. I was, for some reason, not very nice to see. I tried not to look at him too much. I kind of. I wanted to know that he was there. I could just about cope with looking at him out the corner of my eye.

[Carl Miller]

The prosecution argument runs as Lisa expects. It takes about 15 minutes to lay out the entire ordeal. But it's the defence's case that Lisa is really interested in. So far, Naval has never offered any real explanation for his actions. And Lisa's ear pricks up when the barrister mentions that Naval had mental health problems.

[Phoebe]

When he started speaking about mental health, I thought, oh, maybe this will explain something, maybe this will explain some kind of. I had no idea personally if he'd been diagnosed with some profound personality disorder, but nothing. It was just generic mental health, which I can safely say we both struggled as a consequence from this with our own mental health. So there was no remorse.

[Carl Miller]

The defence argue that Naval is a first time offender. He has a PhD, a good job, he's got a loving family and he picks up his nieces and nephews from school. There's even a character reference from Naval's new girlfriend. The judge doesn't take these arguments very seriously. He describes Naval's actions as cruel and calculated. He calls out Naval's lies and the way he tried to manipulate his way out of being caught. The judge hands down the sentence. Three years in prison with half of it served on probation. At a minimum, Naval will now spend 18 months behind bars.

[Phoebe]

I just kept thinking to myself, this is the right thing. Think I hate him for what he's done and I never want to see him again. But he's a person at the end of the day and I hope not for good things or bad things to come his way. I just hope he's okay. After the judge had finished speaking, he just stood up so slowly. He just looked devastated and then he was gone and that was it.

[Carl Miller]

So what does justice mean in this case? Nival has been punished, he's gotten jail time. For Lisa, that genuinely means something important. It means that in the end the system validated what she'd been through. On the other hand, Naval will spend less time in prison than Lisa had to endure waiting for him to be convicted. In a sense, the slow, interminable grinding of this dysfunctional system has punished her longer than it has him.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, I mean, this wasn't a whodunit, was it?

[Carl Miller]

That's Caroline Thornham, my producer.

[Caroline Thornham]

Naval's image was on the camera that they found. There was more evidence on his laptop. You know, they worked out who the prime suspect here was very quickly and yet it still took so long. And I think you get some perspective on just how extreme Lisa's situation is when you look at what other cases normally take. When you compare it to the average amount of time it takes for something like this to resolve Lisa's case should have taken a year, and what it took was two and a half years, which is a massive difference. And something that I found in the court documents that really struck me about this is that when it came to sentencing Naval, the judge actually found that all of these delays should mitigate in Naval's favour. Right. When Lisa's also been having to wait this whole time, too.

[Carl Miller]

And despite the fact that he's concocted a ludicrous alibi that he's been threatened and pressured by gangsters. Yeah.

[Caroline Thornham]

If Naval wanted this to be resolved more quickly, maybe he could have, you know, told the truth from the start.

[Carl Miller]

I think we go about our lives, like, thinking these institutions are going to be there for us if, God forbid, we ever need them. But, like, what's really scary, and I think should scare everyone listening to this story, is that in Lisa's case, they really weren't. They really weren't there for her.

[Caroline Thornham]

They really weren't. And Lisa here has run into the reality that so many people face, which is that in our criminal justice system, you know, victims of crimes, and often victims of crimes involving sexual violence in particular, often don't see any justice, or it takes so long, and the conviction rates are often really, really low for so many people. The systems are not there when they need them. And any one of us is just one piece of bad luck away from being in Lisa's shoes. And that's really scary. In amongst all of that and all the systemic failures here and how long Lisa's had to wait to get this justice, the kill order can really feel like a bit of a footnote in this story. But actually, it played a really significant role because Lisa says the kill order allowed the police to upgrade the stalking charge to stalking involving fear of violence. And that's a much more serious offence. So without the kill order and the small payment he made, Naval might not actually have even gone to prison at all.

[Naval]

This case hits me really hard, personally. Lisa's only a bit younger than I am and she lives quite near to where I do in the uk. And really, there was no reason to anticipate that anything like this could happen to her. It's clear both to me and to Caroline that we could easily have been in Lisa's shoes. And what I find most profoundly unsettling about Lisa's story is how not one but a whole host of institutions failed Lisa just at the moment she needed them the most. The police, the nhs, the Crown Prosecution Service, even her own MP for years on end wouldn't give her the support that she needed, leaving her feeling utterly alone during this time, because practically speaking, she was. So for me, this case isn't about the darknet, nor is it about naval it's about Lisa being surrounded by public services failing in their most basic and yet important duties.

[Carl Miller]

On the next episode of Kill List, we return to one of the cases that unsettled me the Most, that of Dr. Ron Ilke and how he tried to evade justice and exert new influence even from behind bars.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You can hear him in there trying to manipulate me and it's just this very like I am the teacher, I am in charge. Let me show you how you've got this all wrong about I was thinking, I was like, oh, this guy really thinks he's some kind of Don Juan who can charm anyone. And I think he might be evil.

[Carl Miller]

If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry in the Wandri app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and Novel. This is Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me Carmilla. The reporter for this episode is Caroline Thornham and it was produced and written by a series producer, Tom Wright. Kill List is also produced by Jay Kotaevich with additional production by Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Amalia Saltland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lina Chang.

[Naval]

Additional research from Chris Montero for Wondery.

[Carl Miller]

Our senior producer is Mandy Gorenstein. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton.

[Naval]

Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for Novel, Sarah.

[Carl Miller]

Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plews is our senior managing producer for Wandering. Original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Daniel Kemperson for Novel, Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for Novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty.