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- [00:00]
Karl Miller
Wandery subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandri in the Wandary app or on Apple podcasts. Hi, it's Karl here. I just wanted to let you know that this episode includes a description of a sexual assault. A young woman with dyed blue hair approaches the front desk of the FBI office in Phoenix, Arizona. She's 19 years old, and she's got her mother beside her as she gives her name to the woman at the counter enclosed in bulletproof glass.
- [00:46]
Faye
The lady at the desk. Like, she lets the people know there's someone here for. It was the first time I heard it phrased as a murder for hire. It was like a gut punch. My mom and I look at each other, like, did she just call it that? Like, that is just freaking crazy. I was like, in a movie. Not a very happy movie, obviously.
- [01:13]
Karl Miller
The girl with the blue hair, we're calling her Faye. And the reason Faye's here is, is because the day before, her local sheriff called her and her mum down to the station to tell them that someone had paid over $14,000 to have Faye killed. And now the FBI are taking over the case. After a short wait, Faye and her mom are ushered into a small, private room by two FBI agents. It's like they're playing a good cop, bad cop routine. One is mostly taking notes, and the other is quizzing Faye in a way that almost makes her feel like she's a suspect.
- [01:51]
Faye
He was intimidating. He was so intimidating, it was almost like he didn't believe the story or something. And he was very blunt and very harsh with his words.
- [02:03]
Karl Miller
Throughout the interview, the FBI agent asks Fay who she thinks could want her dead. And for Faye, there's only one answer to that question that makes any sense. If you've listened to this show before, you can probably guess who Faye has in mind. It's her ex boyfriend who lives all the way in Beverly Hills, California, hundreds of miles away. They've had a messy breakup, but it's been weeks since she heard from him. His last words on the subject were, consider the matter closed. As the interview wraps up, the FBI agent's demeanor changes.
- [02:40]
Faye
His personality. Just did a whole 180, and he was just like the friendliest guy. He's like, we're gonna get to the bottom of this. You're safe. It's okay.
- [02:53]
Karl Miller
The FBI takes Faye's phone so they can go through all of the messages between her and her ex. A job so large that it takes him several days. They're looking for signs of violence, anything really incriminating. But they need more proof that this guy actually wants to have the murder carried out.
- [03:14]
Faye
They call me back to the FBI office and I'm with my mom and the FBI agent, the same one that was like, super intimidating and scary at first. He lays out the plan.
- [03:29]
Karl Miller
And to Faye, a shy teenager from rural Arizona, that plan sounds completely bonkers.
- [03:37]
Faye
He's like, we are going to pretend to be the hitman. We are going to fake your death.
- [03:53]
Karl Miller
My name is Carl Miller. Since 2020, I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered. Over the course of our first six.
- [04:03]
Scott Burkett
Episodes, you heard about how me and.
- [04:05]
Karl Miller
My team broke into a scam Murder for Hire website on the dark web. As a result of our investigation, we've passed more than 175 kill orders, just like Faye's to law enforcement agencies around the world. More than 30 people have been arrested or convicted so far, with those numbers still climbing. And so we're going to look at individual cases in depth, exploring how the impact of the list ripples out beyond the dark web, transforming people and their lives in profound and irreversible ways. If you've already been listening to Kill List, you might recognize Faye's voice. But there's so much more to this story than you've heard. Fay's case poses a crucial question. When the stakes are so high and you're trying to catch an attempted murderer, is it right to ask the victim to lay the trap?
- [05:08]
Angie Hicks
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- [06:08]
Chris Montero
Why get all your holiday decorations delivered through Instacart? Because maybe you only bought two wreaths but have 12 windows. Or maybe your toddler got very eager with the Advent calendar. Or maybe the inflatable snowman didn't make it through the snowstorm. Or maybe the twinkle lights aren't twinkling. Whatever the reason, this season Instacart's here for hosts and their whole holiday haul. Get decorations from the Home Depot, CVS and more through Instacart and enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.
- [06:53]
Karl Miller
From Wondery and Novel I'm Carmilla and this is Kill List.
- [07:25]
Faye
So like, I'm into like anime, Japanese animation. The characters are cool and I'm not sure exactly what got me into it, but once I was into it, it was all over. That's all I did.
- [07:39]
Karl Miller
Faye has lived in a relatively sheltered environment for most of her life. She was homeschooled with her two sisters and struggled to make local friends, so.
- [07:50]
Scott Burkett
Fei formed her friendships online. On gaming and anime fan sites, they.
- [07:55]
Faye
See you as small and helpless.
- [07:57]
Caroline Thornham
They see you as just a child.
- [08:00]
Angie Hicks
Surprised when they find out that a.
- [08:02]
Chris Montero
Warrior.
- [08:05]
Scott Burkett
One of her favourite fansites is dedicated to the anime show rwby, spelled with a W instead of a U.
- [08:13]
Karl Miller
Its intro with a rousing song by Rooster Teeth shows a girl in a red cloak rising up against a storm and fighting enemy. Faye applied to be one of the page's administrators.
- [08:31]
Scott Burkett
After Faye's admin application is accepted, one of the main admins of the group, a guy called Scott Burkett, immediately welcomes her into the various group chats that the admins have.
- [08:42]
Karl Miller
Scott is 23 years old and comes across as bubbly and smart. Over time, Faye and Scott start talking one on one, first over Facebook, then another app called Discord and then they progress to texts.
- [08:57]
Faye
I was homeschooled and so I didn't have a big social life and so when he started giving me more nice attention, I guess I felt important in someone's life started to fall or get like a little crush.
- [09:18]
Scott Burkett
It doesn't take long for the pair to become a long distance couple. Faye introduces Scott to her family over video calls and everyone likes him. But they can't meet in person yet. It's the height of the pandemic and whilst Faye is in Arizona, Scott lives 500 miles away in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles. But despite the distance, they grow increasingly emotionally entangled. After only two weeks together, Scott tells Faye he's in love with her. It's the first time anyone has ever said that to Faye. It means a lot. Every day they text and call for hours on end. At night they fall asleep while still on video, call with each other.
- [10:06]
Faye
You know, when we woke up, we would be able to say, like, good morning. So, yeah, I became very attached.
- [10:18]
Karl Miller
For a year. That's how their relationship goes. But as soon as Covid restrictions start to lift In October of 2020, they hatch a plan to get Fay out to Beverly Hills.
- [10:30]
Faye
So I saved, and I underestimated how expensive the hotels were because he lived in Beverly Hills. Hotels in that area are freakishly expensive. And so we spoke about it, and ultimately his dad was the one who paid for the hotel for me.
- [10:49]
Karl Miller
On Tuesday, 27th of October, 2020, Fay leaves her house and makes her way to the airport with a healthy dose of butterflies. She's ready to meet her boyfriend for the first time.
- [11:02]
Faye
What if he doesn't like me? Like, what if it's awkward when we're in person? You know, I just kind of went back and forth like, this is gonna be awesome, or this could be an absolute disaster.
- [11:14]
Scott Burkett
For Fey, this is nothing short of a rom com moment. Finally, she's gonna find out just who.
- [11:21]
Karl Miller
Scott Paquette.
- [11:27]
Scott Burkett
When Faye arrives at lax, she heads straight into arrivals with her heart pumping.
- [11:33]
Faye
It was like an adrenaline rush. Oh, my gosh, I'm here. I'm about to see my boyfriend. I'm on the phone with him, and he tells me where he's at, and I find him, and he gets out of the car, and I'm like, so anxious, I don't know what to do. And so I, like, ask him, like, can I hug you? Like, what do I do?
- [11:57]
Karl Miller
After an awkward and much anticipated hug, Scott takes Faye to the hotel his dad is paying for. Because of COVID Faye won't be staying at Scott's house, but instead at the Avalon, a four star boutique hotel in the heart of Beverly Hills. Scott, though, will stay at his parents. Scott helps Faye get checked in.
- [12:20]
Scott Burkett
She keeps one set of keys and Scott takes the other. They head out to get takeaway burgers back to the hotel room. Scott seems like the perfect gentleman. When they were long distance, he was always attentive to Faye's feelings, and the two of them were prepared to take things slow. So far, they've only hugged.
- [12:40]
Faye
Beforehand. I told him that I wasn't ready for anything, like, intimate per se, and he agreed with me. He's like, yeah, of course, Absolutely. You know, it was something we agreed on.
- [12:56]
Scott Burkett
But now with their burgers finished and the two of them alone together, Scott's behavior starts to change.
- [13:05]
Faye
He started trying to be, like, intimate with me and trying to touch me and, you know, all that Junk, you know, he asked me, do you want to do this? And I was just very hesitant and unsure and at first he would back off.
- [13:21]
Scott Burkett
They head out for a walk and things are normal, more or less. But when they get back to the hotel, Scott comes up with Faye to her room. It's important to let Faye explain in her own words exactly what happened next. Just to warn you, it's upsetting to listen to.
- [13:45]
Faye
He would start trying stuff again and a lot was going through my head, like, what do I do? Like, you know, ultimately I agreed to get intimate with him after a lot of pressure, but like during the act I, I told him to stop and he did not. And I felt very stuck. I felt pretty ashamed, like, you know, his freaking dad bought me a hotel room and, you know, he had a key to that hotel room and yeah, I was in a different state. I don't have family in this area, you know, there wasn't anyone I could call.
- [14:31]
Scott Burkett
After Scott leaves, Fay struggles to make sense of what's happened. She's never been intimate with anyone before and she really doesn't know how to categorize exactly what has happened, though she knows that she didn't consent to it. She doesn't call her family. She doesn't call the police either. Instead, she's stuck in a hotel room far from home and only just at the start of a trip that's supposed to be an exciting new experience. So it makes sense that the next morning she carries on as if nothing's happened. Scott picks her up and takes her to his parents large two story home in Beverly Hills surrounded by a big garden and a pool.
- [15:17]
Karl Miller
Because Covid was still rampant at the time, Scott's mum doesn't want Fay inside the house. So they sit in the garden whilst his dad makes breakfast.
- [15:28]
Scott Burkett
That day, they go out to the pier and the mall. In the evening, they get dressed up for dinner at a fancy restaurant. On the surface, everything is fine, but.
- [15:39]
Karl Miller
In the back of Fei's mind, memories of what happened the night before seep through. You get the sense that Faye feels obliged to stay and play along. She has to get through this trip somehow.
- [15:59]
Scott Burkett
After three days of an unbelievably strange and upsetting trip, with her emotions bottled up, Fay says goodbye to Scott as if nothing's wrong and boards her flight. But when she gets home, their communication changes. She starts to feel uncomfortable every time her phone dings with a new message from him. There is no repairing this.
- [16:21]
Faye
It wasn't long after that I had called him and you know, Told him, like, hey, I don't think this is gonna work out. You're a good guy, you know, thank you, but it's just not gonna work out.
- [16:36]
Karl Miller
Did he kind of acknowledge at any point what happened in the hotel?
- [16:42]
Faye
No. No, it was. You know, it didn't seem like a big deal to him. Like, he didn't seem worried about it. And then finally, we were able to break up.
- [16:52]
Karl Miller
Fay asks Scott to give her some space. She wants to move on, and she can't do that if they remain friends. Well, he doesn't. And keeps messaging her. It's nothing threatening, per se, Just some good mornings or stuff about shows he liked. But Scott is continuing to push at Faye's boundaries, and he remains a small voice on her phone, needling her for attention.
- [17:16]
Faye
It became this thing where he would see me online on discord, and he would message me, like, immediately as I got online.
- [17:27]
Scott Burkett
Fey doesn't tell anyone about what happened in the hotel room. She starts dating a friend of her sister's, and the two go out to parties and bonfires together. Six months after her trip with Scott, Fay's chatting with her sister, who's teasing her about her new boyfriend. She asks Faye if she's ever had sex, and that question hits Fay hard. She starts crying, and she tells her sister about Scott, the hotel room, the continued messaging. After she told him to leave her.
- [17:58]
Karl Miller
Alone, Fay's sister launches straight into protective mode. Unlike Fay, she's clear about what she thinks Scott did in that hotel room. A sexual assault. And Faye agrees. So Faye's sister does what any protective sibling would do. She picks up the phone and makes a call to Scott's dad. She tells him that Scott should leave Faye alone for real this time. Not long later, Fay's sister's phone rings. It's Scott.
- [18:32]
Faye
She told him, like, leave her alone. And then he ended that with, I'll leave her alone. Consider this matter closed. I'm sitting here, like, having, like, panic attack. Like, I'm crying. I'm, like, asking my sister, like, why'd you do that? Like, I was very freaked out. That's when I left. Finally, the Facebook page that I had met Scott in. And so then communication was cut officially with Scott.
- [19:02]
Karl Miller
After that, Scott does as he promised and finally stops contacting Faye. It feels like maybe now she can start to process what's happened, to heal and, she hopes, move on with her life. In May 2021, Faye is sitting in her pajamas at her kitchen table when she hears a knock on the door.
- [19:26]
Faye
I hear this person ask for me. And I'm just like, what? Like, I wonder who's here. Like, I peek through the window and there's a cop car in the driveway. Well, my mom comes in after talking to this cop, and she tells me, you know, okay, you need to go wash your face, change your clothes, and then get in the car. I'm like, what's happening? She's like, I can't tell you. You're not in trouble. Everything's okay. We just need to get to the car. We have to go to the sheriff's office, the police station. My stomach is in knots. I'm like, what even. Like, it was just completely beyond me. I had no idea.
- [20:09]
Karl Miller
Fay does what her mum asks and tidies herself up before driving down to the sheriff's office. Shortly after they arrive, they're guided to a private conference room and directed to sit down. And that's where Fay gets the news that will change her life forever.
- [20:27]
Faye
My mom is sitting next to me, and she's like, got her hand on my leg. He's like, there's no easy way to put this. You know, I'll get straight to the point. There's been a serious threat put on your life. Someone we don't know who spent $13,000 in Bitcoin to have you killed. I start shaking, and I'm, like, tearing up. It was so surreal. And at that moment, that second on, I was scared from my life.
- [21:16]
Karl Miller
We get support from Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday. With just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. It's a spot for incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list. Uncommon Goods has products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US Meaning you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. So for me, I bought a gift for a friend who loves fruit and the gift of these small woolen things that you put on the top of bananas to apparently keep them fresh for longer. Sounds a bit odd. I mean, definitely uncommon. But I genuinely think he'll love them. And with every purchase you make and Uncommon Goods, they'll give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com list. That's UncommonGoods.com list for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer on Common Goods. We're all out of the ordinary.
- [22:16]
Chris Montero
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your Jobs will be done well. Roof repair done well. Kitchen sink install done well. Deck upgrades done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Hire high quality Certified pros@angie.com On 29.
- [22:54]
Karl Miller
April 2021, our source, Chris Montero, sent us a kill order. In it, a user who goes by the alias Euler77 describes how they want Faye killed.
- [23:13]
Scott Payne
I'd like it to look like an accident, but robbery gone wrong may work better so long as she's dead. I'd also like for her phone to be retrieved and destroyed irreparably in the process.
- [23:26]
Scott Burkett
The messages go on and on, and what stands out to me when I read the many, many messages between EULA77 and the site admin is how detailed they are.
- [23:37]
Scott Payne
Attached is the most recent full body photo that I have access to, although her profile picture on Facebook and Instagram is the most recent.
- [23:45]
Karl Miller
EULA 77 is meticulous. They know Faye's nicknames like Chaos Pixie and Rye Bread and include links to her social media accounts.
- [23:55]
Scott Payne
I would like proof of her death sent to me. She has a distinctive tattoo on one of her forearms, but I know the image of so a photo of her corpse and a photo of her tattoo for identification would work. I'll refrain from sending a picture of the tattoo to avoid doctrine photos.
- [24:12]
Karl Miller
We immediately pass on everything we have to our contacts at the FBI. All we can do is hope that they keep Faye safe. Back in the police station, Faye is still reeling from the shock of the news. But the local cops seem almost excited about it. Fay says she hears one of them say, nothing like this has ever happened in our town.
- [24:38]
Scott Burkett
But the local force is not running the investigation. The FBI is. They want to speak to Faye tomorrow. And with that, the officer sends them off on a tearful drive home.
- [24:50]
Karl Miller
The next morning, Faye and her mum meet with the FBI. She tells them all about Scott, and after analyzing her phone, they lay out their plan. In order to prove that Scott really wants Faye dead, an undercover agent is going to approach him, pretending to be the hitman and to convince Scott that the whole thing is real. The FBI need Faye to play along. So together with the FBI agents, she heads to a remote park area near the local zoo.
- [25:28]
Faye
The whole walk to where they want to take these pictures, they're making just these jokes. They're making these dark jokes about faking my death. So my mom and I were just like, what? Even is going on.
- [25:43]
Scott Burkett
They find a secluded spot near a river. The photographer asks Faye to lie down in the mud surrounded by dead leaves, sticks, rocks, and shrubs.
- [25:54]
Faye
She's telling me, you know, stick your arm out, make sure your tattoo is visible.
- [26:00]
Karl Miller
The photographer shows the photos of Faye.
- [26:03]
Scott Burkett
In the dirt to her mom. She fights back tears as she reviews.
- [26:07]
Karl Miller
Her daughter's proof of death.
- [26:09]
Scott Burkett
But the FBI agents don't seem to notice.
- [26:12]
Faye
You can see the photographer's, like, shoe in the corner of the picture. And they start making a joke about how it makes it look more real, like, that's the hitman's foot in the picture. And they're like, laughing about it. And I'm just like, I just laid in the mud for you so you can pretend to be my hitman and pretend I'm dead. Like, why are you laughing?
- [26:43]
Karl Miller
Next, they need a photo of Faye clearly alive. They want it to look like the hitman is stalking her as she goes about her life. They offer to get a photographer to do it, but Faye decides to organize the shoot herself. At the supermarket, between the electronics and the kids clothing sections, a shadowy figure stalks Faye as she casually browses the aisles. It's her grandmother who snaps a couple of photos. As Faye pretends to shop, they send the photos off to the FBI.
- [27:20]
Scott Burkett
The second phase of the FBI's plan now rolls into action. They make contact with Scott Burkett directly, not on the Hitman for Hire site, but on WhatsApp. They use the supermarket photos to break the ice, exchange a few messages, and then when they call, Faye's suspicions become realised. The transcript here is read by actors.
- [27:45]
FBI Agent
Hi. You got the pictures?
- [27:47]
Scott Payne
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:49]
FBI Agent
So I'm following up on something that was started a little while ago. I'm just making contact with you.
- [27:58]
Scott Payne
Okay. I was actually surprised to get that through WhatsApp.
- [28:03]
FBI Agent
I know we switch things up every once in a while.
- [28:07]
Karl Miller
The FBI are already confirmed that Scott is the one behind the order. Using the evidence we gave them, they were able to trace the bitcoin wallet used to pay for the hit back to Scott. And with Faye's interview, they have a solid motive for the attempted killing. But what they need is cast iron proof evidence that will stand up in court and prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Scott fully intended to have Faye murdered.
- [28:36]
FBI Agent
Good. All right, so my understanding is what has to get done is this has to get done. We're looking at some kind of accident or robbery to have gone wrong, right?
- [28:49]
Scott Payne
Yeah. That way it doesn't get traced.
- [28:51]
FBI Agent
Okay. What is there any part of it you want to see. Do you want a video of her not breathing? What do you. What do you want to see?
- [29:01]
Scott Payne
Picture of the corpse and a picture of the tattoo to verify.
- [29:06]
FBI Agent
Okay.
- [29:06]
Scott Payne
Just so that way, because there were warnings of, like, hey, make sure it's not photoshopped.
- [29:16]
Karl Miller
So far, so good. But there's one more piece of evidence the FBI needs to prove that Scott is really willing to pay money to have Faye killed.
- [29:26]
Scott Burkett
They already have the bitcoin payments, but now the hitman tells Scott he needs a sweetener to get the job done. Scott agrees and wires the money from a local Western union.
- [29:38]
Karl Miller
With this, Scott's fate is sealed. The FBI don't even need to send him the proof of death photos. They have everything they need to arrest Scott for trying to murder Faye. So the last part of the plan is Scott's alibi.
- [29:52]
Scott Burkett
But it's not just an alibi.
- [29:54]
Karl Miller
It's a trap. On May 21, 2021, the day that Faye is scheduled to be killed, Scott is filmed by a surveillance camera buying alcohol in a grocery store. He thinks this will make it impossible for anyone to believe that he could be involved in Faye's murder. But the FBI are waiting for Scott outside the store, and when he comes out with his bag of booze, he gets a rude awakening.
- [30:25]
Scott Burkett
A Beverly Hills man has been arrested.
- [30:27]
Angie Hicks
In an alleged murder for hire plot to kill a woman he used to date.
- [30:31]
Caroline Thornham
The supposed hitman Burkett hired off. The Dark Web was really an undercover agent. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs for.
- [30:47]
Faye
Caring for your home. Out.
- [30:50]
Caroline Thornham
Indecision, overthinking, second guessing every choice you.
- [30:54]
Faye
Make in plans and guides that make.
- [30:57]
Caroline Thornham
It easy to get home. Projects done out beige on beige on beige. In knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire.
- [31:07]
Faye
Start caring for your home with confidence. Download thumbtack today.
- [31:24]
Karl Miller
When the team took this case, we had a polarized reaction to the way the FBI handled it. On the one hand, they're investigating it in a way that is muscular and really proactive and pursuing the suspect on the other. That approach is also potentially quite a risky one. It begs a question that we've asked ourselves many, many times. When you're trying to prevent a murder, how far is too far? And now that we know more about what the FBI does with our information, I can't help but wonder, just how unusual is it for the authorities to take measures like this, to even go so far as to pose as a hitman and fake the death of one of our targets?
- [32:07]
Caroline Thornham
Yeah, I mean, it's really shocking, isn't it?
- [32:09]
Karl Miller
That's Caroline Thornham, my producer. She's been with me every step of this journey, investigating the kill list. And so she knows these cases inside and out.
- [32:20]
Caroline Thornham
But the undercover element of this case is something that then, you know, crops up in other cases, too. In four that we've seen that we know of, the FBI have used undercover tactics a bit like this in order to try and catch the perpetrator. It seems like this case, which the first one they do this in, was a bit of a blueprint for them.
- [32:37]
Scott Burkett
And we know that we were worried.
- [32:38]
Karl Miller
Because it kind of introduced this new risk. But I suppose the real root question of all of this is, does it work?
- [32:45]
Caroline Thornham
It's interesting. You know, usually the suspects do take the bait. But there was one case we saw where the suspect was hesitant about following through with the hit. She was 19 years old, and she'd had an affair with an older man. When he broke up with her, she then tried to have him killed. But when she was approached by the undercover agent from the FBI, she actually hesitated and tried to back out of the murder.
- [33:09]
Karl Miller
Did that make a difference, legally speaking.
- [33:12]
Scott Burkett
That she didn't try and follow through?
- [33:13]
Caroline Thornham
She was still convicted, but it might have reduced her sentence. She only got three years in prison.
- [33:18]
Scott Burkett
And what about Fay's case, then?
- [33:20]
Karl Miller
In particular, the fact that she participated.
- [33:23]
Scott Burkett
In these proof of death photos?
- [33:25]
Caroline Thornham
As far as we know, this is the only time the FBI have done this with our cases, at least. I can't even imagine what that must have been like for Fay. You know, they're already talking to him as a hitman. Why do they need to go to this extra step? How often are they doing something like this? The special agent who handled Fay's case wouldn't go on the record for us, but it turns out that there's actually quite a few FBI agents out there with experience of posing as hitmen.
- [33:53]
FBI Undercover Agent
I've been the guy that delivered the bomb to somebody who wanted to blow up a family. I've been the guy to provide a gun to the white supremacists who wanted to shoot up a synagogue.
- [34:04]
Caroline Thornham
This is Scott Payne. He worked for the FBI for 23 years, many of which he spent undercover. And crucially, for us, he's also got a lot of experience posing as a hitman.
- [34:14]
FBI Undercover Agent
I mean, look. I mean, you can see me, right? I'm the country guy. I'm six four. I got tattoos. I work out, and I ride motorcycles. I'm in the backwoods with people missing teeth, scratching their Skin and can turn on you in a heartbeat. And I'm like, these are my people. This is what my skill set gets me, you know? But in my experience, the murder for hires are really quick. You know, it's just two, three meets. I'm not coming in there to joke. I'm not coming in to build rapport with you, because I'm coming in as a killer. You're hiring me to kill somebody, and that's what I'm here to do.
- [34:50]
Caroline Thornham
So Scott Payne can help us understand why the FBI takes such extraordinary steps to investigate cases like Fayes. And it turns out it's not as uncommon as you'd think. The FBI actually use undercover agents a lot with cases involving contract killing. And it's especially useful where the perpetrator is hiding behind some kind of online alias. That's because what they need to be able to do, essentially, is match up the Dark Web user with a real life person beyond any reasonable doubt in court. You know, all of their intentions, all of their actions, and this undercover operation allows them to do that.
- [35:29]
FBI Undercover Agent
I mean, it sounds like a great case to me because it sounds like it's pretty airtight. If she's a victim and we've identified her, Faye, and we want to know if Scott is really planning this. You're going to try to build evidence, we're going to try to get more conversation. And if he is actually trying to get her killed, I want to make sure that you think I'm the guy and you're not shopping around. If this Scott guy gets spooked and then goes ghost. Now we don't even know who he really is, or if he's out shopping, or if he's like, screw it, I'm just going to go kill her myself. Those are all things you got to worry about.
- [36:07]
Caroline Thornham
He also thinks it was a good idea to get Fae involved, which for me is the part of this that I've always struggled to get on board with. If you're working on a case where you're going to enlist a victim to sort of play a part, right, in this undercover sting, how do you weigh up how you're gonna do that without it being, you know, potentially really traumatic for them?
- [36:34]
FBI Undercover Agent
That's a tough question, Caroline. I mean, it's a case by case basis. That's all I can tell you. I'm speaking from my own experience. I would just have to weigh it out. If they come back and go, it's just too traumatic. I can't do it. Well, then, okay, every FBI office Has a victim witness coordinator. And if I was running this murder for hire case, I would have that person there. They will give you avenues to contact somebody for help.
- [37:00]
Caroline Thornham
What surprised me the most is that Scott didn't think Faye faking her own death was unusual at all. He told me about a murder for hire case he'd worked. The target was a woman who was involved in human trafficking.
- [37:11]
FBI Undercover Agent
We scooped her up quietly. I said, look, I know you do criminal activity. I know that you move people illegally in the United States all the time. That's not what this case is about. I'm trying to keep you safe because this person wants you killed. But if you call your son and you let them know, all it takes is one set of loose lips to say, oh, she's really working with the FBI, and the whole thing is blown. And we told her, you can't call your kids, you can't call anybody. It has to look like you've been kidnapped. So we had to make it look very real. And, you know, and we put her up in a hotel room, and then we ended up doing the kind of deal where we taped her up, you know, to look like she had been killed and took pictures, and we went to pick up the $50,000 for the supposed murder of this woman.
- [38:00]
Caroline Thornham
It sounds like something out of a movie, you know, being taped up in a hotel room and made up to look like you've been murdered. And I have a lot of empathy for this woman, too, because that must have been terrifying. Just like the experience for fae. Sounds like it was incredibly strange and hard to go through as well.
- [38:18]
Scott Burkett
You know what? I genuinely don't feel morally particularly conflicted.
- [38:23]
Karl Miller
About the FBI using tactics which draws a potential killer into an incriminating conversation. I think the kind of imagination and proactivity that we see here, if it were me, I would much rather that than the kind of languid, feckless, no result investigations that we've seen all too many other times around the world.
- [38:45]
Caroline Thornham
Sure. But I also think that just because they've got a result here doesn't mean we shouldn't, like, pay close attention to what it's like for a victim going through these processes. Because I think that's something we've seen time and time again in the cases that have gone through the courts, Is that even in cases where a victim has got some kind of justice at the end, which is obviously what we would hope for, They've often been let down along the way by processes that are just not set up to be sensitive to what it's like to a person who's already gone through something unbelievably traumatic in the crime and is now being potentially like retraumatized over and over again by the system that's supposed to punish someone or get justice for them. And I think, I don't know, I think I have questions about this because, you know, they didn't even ultimately use the photos where they made Faye fake her in death.
- [39:31]
Karl Miller
The whole thing is horribly traumatic. But what's more traumatic than anything else is there not being an end to this and not ever being able to.
- [39:39]
Scott Burkett
Feel safe because the person that's put.
- [39:41]
Karl Miller
You on the list is still out there somewhere in the world.
- [39:43]
Caroline Thornham
Yeah. I mean, you certainly can't say that the FBI here are being inactive. Right. And I guess it really comes down to fundamentally whether that gets results. So after Scott is arrested by the FBI, he's taken to a detention center pending trial. And this is where his defense defence team really kick into overdrive and where the legal drama begins. I've been going through the documents and they're filled with letters from Scott's family vouching for his character and trying to get him out on bail. There are lots of different family members describing him as a really good person, someone who would drop anything basically to help his nearest and dearest. The evidence that they're using feels at times a bit jarring considering how serious the allegations against him are. For example, in one instance, they say Scott used to give his siblings the biggest slice of cake when they were children.
- [40:36]
Karl Miller
The biggest slice of cake?
- [40:37]
Caroline Thornham
Yeah. It's coming down to cake. And there also is another anecdote from his college years that really feels quite weird to read given what Faye says happened to her. The words here are read by an actor.
- [40:49]
FBI Agent
Scott was friends with a group that maintained an unofficial safety escort patrol for female studies students walking alone late at night. His group would not drink and would stand by near the fraternities so they as a group could walk female students safely to their homes if they were walking alone late at night and wanted to be escorted. The group never dated any of the students they escorted. They were only out to help protect them.
- [41:17]
Scott Burkett
Given the crimes that Scott's been accused.
- [41:19]
Karl Miller
Of, this self appointed late night escort service seems like a particularly weird thing to draw out of his background and.
- [41:28]
Scott Burkett
Put into a legal document.
- [41:30]
Caroline Thornham
It's really quite strange, isn't it? And I know, I mean, when I was a student, if I'd run into a group like this, personally, I would probably avoid them, to be honest. And given all the context here of the case against him and the nature of the allegations, it doesn't feel that convincing to me.
- [41:46]
Scott Burkett
So does all of this then mean that Scott doesn't get bail?
- [41:49]
Caroline Thornham
Well, you would have assumed that, but the defence were fighting really hard to get him out of prison and the prosecution had to fight back very hard as well. It's a close run thing. But then Scott makes a massive and frankly quite unbelievable mistake.
- [42:05]
Karl Miller
What does he do?
- [42:09]
Caroline Thornham
So while Scott is at the detention centre, he. He asks another inmate who's about to be released if they will scrub evidence of his own crime for him. Scott offers this guy $10,000 and writes down detailed instructions on a sheet of A4 paper. For this person, it's like literally chock full of scribbled instructions. He gives this inmate all of the login details for the murder for Hiresight and tells him to send the admin a message suggesting that ULA 77 is actually some other person who'd been hired to frame Scott. He also asks this guy to wipe as much information as possible off the site. But then instead of helping Scott, this inmate goes straight to the prison authorities. He turns Scott in in return for good favor on his own record. And at that point it's pretty much curtains for Scott. Like he's sealed his own fate.
- [43:02]
Karl Miller
Gosh, I mean, that's so self incriminating to leave a written record of instructions for the destruction of evidence.
- [43:08]
Caroline Thornham
Yeah, and I think it speaks to this thing that we see so often with these criminals, right, that on the one hand they're really genuinely dangerous, but at the same time incredibly naive in how they go about it.
- [43:19]
Scott Burkett
And I'm no lawyer, but I can.
- [43:22]
Karl Miller
Imagine that once the authorities learned of this, it doesn't just sink Scott's bail attempts, but actually his entire defence.
- [43:30]
Caroline Thornham
I mean, it certainly hasn't helped his case. At this point he's pretty much out of options. So on April 27, 2022, Scott pleads guilty. He's sentenced to five years in prison and a three year period of supervised release. But even so, to Faye, it's not enough time for what she's had to go through.
- [43:53]
Faye
I don't think I can move on this quickly. Like he's gonna get out and I'm gonna feel unsafe again. It was both a relief that he was finally sentenced and it was finally kind of over. But then also just another thing to anticipate.
- [44:14]
Scott Burkett
Is it clear kind of how to heal yet?
- [44:17]
Faye
Right now I struggle to see that there's any sort of light at the end of the tunnel. Some days it's easier to see, like, okay, well, I'll move on from this. It'll be okay. And then other days I'm just like, you know, it's not ever going to be over. It's always going to be something that affects me.
- [44:47]
Karl Miller
To me, this case stands up as a challenge to every police force in the world that still has one of these, these open cases sat on their desk. This shows that it can be done. Each and every single One of the 175 cases we passed over could be competently investigated. So in many cases, I think police forces that have been befuddled or confused or overwhelmed or intimidated by the darknet element, like, they think it's a darknet, it's too technical. And what on earth do you do? Well, here's what you do. Get the case and take it off.
- [45:21]
Scott Burkett
The darknet, put it onto WhatsApp, put.
- [45:23]
Karl Miller
It onto Western Union. You know, create a direct contact. That's how to investigate these cases. And I do not know why it hasn't been done more often. Next time on Kill List. We're in Berlin for a case where the lines between fact and fiction, delusion and reality become utterly blurred.
- [45:59]
Scott Payne
I'm willing to pay 10,000 for killing.
- [46:02]
FBI Undercover Agent
By stabbing or 12,000 if it is made look like a robbery gone wrong.
- [46:06]
Faye
I'm still in the area of the potential victim just around the corner from his house, really not feeling unsafe. I think he doesn't know anything about the threat.
- [46:19]
Karl Miller
That's bad. That's really bad news. If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondri in the Wandary app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wandary.com survey from Wandery and novel. This is Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carmilla. The reporter for this episode is Caroline Thornham and it was produced and written by Anna Sin Field and our series producer, Tom Wright. Additional production by Amber Singer. Killless is also produced by Jay Kotaevich. Our assistant producer is Amalia Saltland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lina Chang.
- [47:14]
Scott Burkett
Additional research from Chris Montero.
- [47:17]
Karl Miller
For Wandery. Our senior producer is Mandy Gorenstein. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton.
- [47:24]
Scott Burkett
Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for novel.
- [47:29]
Karl Miller
Sarah Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plews is our senior managing producer for Wandery. Original music by Skylar Gerdman. And Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander. Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson. For novel, Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty.