Big Lake | 16

Summary

Kill List Episode Summary: "Big Lake | 16"

Release Date: December 31, 2024

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Introduction

In "Big Lake | 16," part of the gripping true-crime series Kill List by Wondery and Novel, host Carl Miller delves deep into the harrowing story of Alexis Stern, a young woman from Big Lake, Minnesota, who becomes the target of a sinister plot orchestrated through the dark web's murder-for-hire services. This episode unpacks the complexities of Alexis's troubled relationship, the ensuing threats against her life, and the frustratingly slow response of law enforcement.

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The Relationship: A Promising Start Turned Sour

The episode begins by painting a picture of Alexis Stern's seemingly ordinary life in the small town of Big Lake. At 15, Alexis is an aspiring writer, weaving tales of darkness even as she remains isolated from her community. Her life takes a dramatic turn when she meets Adrian Fry, a 19-year-old British online boyfriend.

Key Moments:

• First Meeting: After months of online dating, Adrian visits Big Lake, and their first in-person meeting is described by Alexis:

  [06:24] Alexis Stern: "I had just gone on break and I was walking up towards the front of the store. I was walking behind this guy and I was like, he looks really familiar."

• Intensifying Relationship: Their relationship quickly deepens despite the 4,000-mile distance. However, the initial excitement soon gives way to tension as Adrian's need for constant contact becomes overwhelming.

  [08:13] Alexis Stern: "He was texting me when he was at work, when I got home from school or he got home from work, we would talk. And it got to the point I had absolutely no free time to myself. I was always talking to him, Skyping him."

• Growing Strain: Trust issues emerge, highlighted by mutual accusations of infidelity, leading Alexis to contemplate ending the relationship.

  [09:13] Alexis Stern: "I tried mentioning the idea to Adrian that maybe we should take a break or break up. And he completely freaked out, saying that I was going to make a mistake..."

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The Threat: Dark Web and the Kill List

As Alexis grapples with her deteriorating relationship, a more sinister threat looms. Carl Miller introduces his role in uncovering a secret "kill list" on the dark web, where real money is paid for real murders.

Key Developments:

• Adrian's Behavior: Adrian's erratic behavior escalates, leading Alexis to suspect him of being involved in a plot against her life.

  [18:20] Alexis Stern: "Buy a gun, and that immediately threw me off. I was like, what do you mean?"

• Kill Order: Alexis receives alarming messages indicating that someone has placed a hit on her through the dark web alias "mastermind365."

  [20:33] Alexis Stern: "You sat me down and you said that someone had put a hit out on me on the dark web."

• Lack of Law Enforcement Action: Despite presenting compelling circumstantial evidence linking Adrian to the threat, authorities struggle to take decisive action due to jurisdictional challenges and insufficient concrete evidence.

  [25:21] Carl Miller: "So what is the actual evidence at play against Adrian here? Has he been falsely accused by Alexis, or is he responsible for planning her murder?"

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Investigation Challenges and Unresolved Questions

The episode highlights the frustrating inertia of law enforcement in handling cases that span international borders and involve the dark web's clandestine operations.

Insights from Experts:

• Producer Caroline Thornham discusses the patterns observed in similar cases, noting that most perpetrators are ex-partners seeking control:

  [27:40] Caroline Thornham: "...the most common motive we've ever seen on the kill list, which is a desire to control someone."

• Circumstantial Evidence: While Alexis believes the timing and language of the kill list messages implicate Adrian, authorities find the evidence too circumstantial to prosecute.

  [29:44] Carl Miller: "But striking coincidence is only what it is too. There's no really strong evidence that actually links Adrian in that way to the murder order."

• Jurisdictional Hurdles: Attempts to collaborate with UK authorities yielded little progress, leaving the case unresolved and Adrian unprosecuted.

  [34:34] Caroline Thornham: "It's a jurisdictional issue, because Adrian is based in the UK and Alexis is based in America."

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Aftermath and Ongoing Fear

Despite the lack of legal resolution, the psychological toll on Alexis is profound. She remains in a state of fear, constantly vigilant and altering her life to avoid potential threats.

Personal Struggles:

• Relocation for Safety: Alexis and her family take drastic measures to protect themselves, including relocating and enhancing their security measures.

  [23:34] Alexis Stern: "Yeah, I'm not dead, but I'm not living either. I'm just in a stasis, hoping maybe something will happen."

• Continued Harassment: Adrian's sporadic, aggressive communication exacerbates Alexis's anxiety, blurring the lines between their past relationship and the present threat.

  [26:15] Alexis Stern: "Just one photo. It's going to take you, like, five seconds. I was like, no, I don't want to."

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Conclusion: A Quest for Closure

"Big Lake | 16" encapsulates the tragic intersection of personal relationships and the lurking dangers of the dark web. Alexis Stern's story is emblematic of the broader issues surrounding online relationships, cyber threats, and the complexities of international law enforcement. As Alexis seeks closure and attempts to rebuild her life, the episode leaves listeners pondering the elusive nature of justice in the digital age.

Final Reflections:

[38:13] Alexis Stern: "Like I lived through someone wanting to put a hit on me. Not a lot of people can say."

The episode underscores the necessity for more robust investigative frameworks to address the evolving threats posed by the dark web, ensuring that victims like Alexis receive the protection and resolution they desperately need.

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Notable Quotes

• Alexis Stern:

  • "[08:13]... It was always an us, never just a me."
  • "[09:13]... I'm a really big empath. I feel like I really connect to people's emotions a lot more."
  • "[17:16]... I was done."
  • "[23:34]... I'm just in a stasis, hoping maybe something will happen."
  • "[38:13]... Not a lot of people can say."

• Caroline Thornham (Producer):

  • "[27:40]... it's a desire to control someone."
  • "[27:54]... it's a striking coincidence."

• Carl Miller (Host):

  • "[24:52]... there's so many unanswered questions here."
  • "[35:20]... this is something that's going to hang over Alexis and over Adrian indefinitely."

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Looking Ahead

In the next episode, Kill List explores another unresolved mystery in the Spanish town of Pontevedra, where Ana Garcia seeks justice for a suspected assassination attempt. The series continues to shed light on the dark corners of the internet and the real-world consequences of virtual threats.

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Credits:

• Host: Carl Miller
• Reporter: Caroline Thornham
• Production: Anna Sin Fields, Tom Wright, Jay Kotajevic, Amalia Sallund
• Researchers: Megan Oyinka, Lena Chang, Chris Monteiro
• Sound Design: Daniel Kempson
• Music: Skylar Gerdman, Martin Linabel
• Executive Producers: Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien, Craig Strachan, Marshall Louis, Erin O'Flaherty

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Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wondry plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Kill List early and ad free. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. In a large cream coloured house perched on a suburban street is a childhood bedroom with a door firmly shut. Sitting at her desk writing stories about the trials of teenage girlhood, is 15 year old Alexis Stern.

[Alexis Stern]

I've realized that the worst pain comes from the person you do anything for. I think that's the morbid humor of life, the fact that it gives you something sweet and wonderful but then it goes sour and poisons you the longer you have it because you hope the sweetness returns.

[Carl Miller]

Alexis lives in Big Lake, a small Minnesotan town in the United States Midwest. There's a McDonald's, a Subway and a string of gas stations and you might have guessed it, a big lake at the center of it. But Alexis doesn't venture out much. She prefers to stay at home writing self published novels or hanging out with friends on the Internet. It's 2016 and recently Alexis met someone new online, a British 19 year old named Adrian Fry. After being introduced by some mutual friends, they start texting every day and spending hours getting to know each other. Over video calls, Alexis tells him about the novel she's been writing about a possessed secret agent and the dark web. She says she's always been drawn to darkness. Adrian seems almost naive in comparison. Alexis says he doesn't drink, he's soft spoken and he never even heard of the dark web or the illegal things that happen on there. She says he rants and raves about American gun lords. All in all he comes across as a bit of inert but gentle and he really likes her. Their relationship quickly intensifies and they officially become a couple. But they have a 4,000 mile long problem. So shortly after Alexis's 16th birthday, after around six months of talking, they decide it's finally time to meet in person. It's exciting, but there's nerves too, because how well do you really know someone you've only met online? And how much can you trust them? My name is Carl Miller. Since 2020 I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered. We broke into a murder for hire website on the Dark we we could see every order being placed, real money being paid to have real people murdered. The tally of these targets now stands in the hundreds. We call it the kill list. If your name is on this list, it means someone wants you dead and is determined to make the murder happen. So far we've managed to help law enforcement arrest or Convict More than 30 people all around the world. But things don't always work out that way. There's other cases too, like this one, where the victim is left living in fear. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Another worthwhile listen is Amy Tinterra's thrilling and twisting whodunnit. Listen for the Lie. This laugh out loud, funny tale follows Lucy, a woman who needs to clear her own name after a true crime podcast decides to probe into the worst night of her conveniently can't remember Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com wondrypod and discover all the years best waiting for you.

[Caroline Thornham]

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[Carl Miller]

From Wandery and Novel. I'm Carmilla and this is Kill List. Alexis is halfway through her shift at Walmart when her British boyfriend Adrian arrives in Big Lake for the first time. And despite all the planning that had gone into the week, it started as these things sometimes do in a Walmart parking lot.

[Alexis Stern]

I had just gone on break and I was walking up towards the front of the store. I was walking behind this guy and I was like, he looks really familiar.

[Carl Miller]

The man in front of Alexis has short brown hair combed over to the side, clean shaven and wearing rectangular glasses. He looks sweetly nerdy and a little lost.

[Alexis Stern]

I was like, adrian. Lo and behold, Adrian turned around and it took us a second we just kind of looked at each other. I was like, how romantic. We meet at Walmart on my break.

[Carl Miller]

It's an awkward start. Alexis says neither her nor Adrian had ever been in a relationship before, so every new interaction is a negotiation. Do you hug right away? Is a kiss too full on? Even after six months of dating online, already they settle on a hug? One thing Alexis isn't ready to do, though, is tell her parents. So Adrian has booked a hotel just out of town. Which means for their first week together as a couple, Alexis and Adrian fly under the radar. And it's exciting. A week of secretive firsts, first kisses, first meals, out together, first obligatory hometown tour, first night spent together, first love. It's hard to say. Adrian and Alexis are not used to grown up relationships, and it's not totally clear what they really want from each other. It's relatively easy playing out the role of boyfriend and girlfriend when you're only in the same town for a week. But when Adrian goes home, something begins to change. Alexis says he needs constant contact. And she starts feeling exhausted by the responsibility of holding down a long distance relationship.

[Alexis Stern]

He was texting me when he was at work, when I got home from school or he got home from work, we would talk. And it got to the point I had absolutely no free time to myself. I was always talking to him, Skyping him. It was always an us, never just a me.

[Carl Miller]

And all this time they're spending together isn't actually fun anymore. Alexis claims they fight and bargain over ways they've wronged each other. And at the core of all of this seems to be a deep seated sense of jealousy and possession. According to Alexis, Adrian got mad at her for hanging out with a friend who had a crush on her. But then, she says he told her that he'd had a sleepover with a friend who had a crush on him. None of which inspires any sense of trust or honesty. So Alexis says whatever had been holding them together over such a long distance began to fall apart.

[Alexis Stern]

I tried mentioning the idea to Adrian that maybe we should take a break or break up. And he completely freaked out, saying that I was going to make a mistake, that I was the only girl he ever really cared about, saying that he was never going to find anyone else, he's going to be alone for the rest of his life.

[Carl Miller]

Something about Adrian's pleas tugs at Alexis. She'd always been attracted to outcasts, partly because she's one too, but also because she likes to fix their problems and make them feel seen and surely she thinks, isn't that what a girlfriend is for? She says Adrian's made it clear that love to him is her standing by him through thick and thin, through argument, through betrayals. He seems relentless about it, and Alexis relents.

[Alexis Stern]

I'm a really big empath. I feel like I really connect to people's emotions a lot more. And it was confusing, and I was like, you know what? We'll give it another go, see what happens.

[Carl Miller]

About a year on from his first trip, Adrian flies out to Big Lake. Again, Alexis doubts yes, but it's summer and the weather is nice. This time, Alexis puts him up in her best friend's family home because despite dating him for about a year and a half, she still hasn't told her parents about her British boyfriend.

[Alexis Stern]

I was a horrible child.

[Carl Miller]

Their week together is much like their last. They drive around, hang out with friends, and eat out at restaurants because, you.

[Alexis Stern]

Know, he's in America. He wants to get those free refills, since I know you guys don't really have that over there.

[Carl Miller]

Free refills aside, the trip doesn't have the same sheen that Adrian's first visit did. The exciting firsts have been replaced by trust issues and intense, repressed emotions.

[Alexis Stern]

I was trying to convince myself that I wanted to be with Adrian, and I tried really hard to try and look past all those things because I knew how much it would hurt him if we broke up.

[Carl Miller]

But when Adrian returns home again, Alexis says things get worse again. According to Alexis, he told her that he made out with a married woman from work and nearly slept with her.

[Alexis Stern]

I was like, okay, I get you were drunk, but that's not an excuse. If you're going to be sleeping around behind my back, then let's just end it right now.

[Carl Miller]

After reading so many young adult novels, it's not the kind of love Alexis has come to expect. In fact, by this point, it's just hard work. But Alexis feels guilty for wanting to end things and can never quite find the courage to stand her ground. When Adrian tells her he wants to stay together instead for the best part of the year, they continue to video call. Alexis says that some nights they just stare at their screens in silence for hours on end. Frankly, it's boring. And the only exciting thing to talk about is Adrian's next big trip to Big Lake. Alexis says she makes excuses to avoid talking to him, and when they do, she says she even tells him not to come. But it doesn't seem like Adrian's listening. He really wants to see her, and Alexis doesn't want to hurt him by firmly saying otherwise. More than that, Alexis says he keeps describing the beautiful life they could have together, how she should move to England to be with him soon. It sounds nice, this fantasy life. And Alexis decides it's only right to give him a chance in person. Maybe then she'll start to see their relationship in the way he does. So with both parties ignoring the parade of red flags in front of them, Adrian books his third trip to Big Lake, and Alexis finally talks to her parents.

[Alexis Stern]

This time I told my parents, and I was upfront with them because, as I said, my mom already kind of had a hunch of what was going on. So I told her. I was like, look, you were right. I lied to you. I'm kind of in this relationship with this guy. It's been almost two years by this point. I don't know if I want to be with him. I want to give it another go to see if anything will happen. So my mom said that he could stay at our house in Big Lake.

[Carl Miller]

Alexis drives to the airport to pick up Adrian. It's a big moment, a real make or break. Will they be able to rekindle the excitement of the first trip? Or will she wish they were still separated by 4,000 miles of ocean?

[Alexis Stern]

I realized the moment I picked him up that I never wanted him to show up the third time. It was like the confirmation I needed at that point. I was like, crap. Like, I'm stuck with you for a week now, and I don't even want to be with you.

[Carl Miller]

In a car, they drive back to Alexis's, where Adrian finally meets her family for the first time and is shown to his room, which is, to Alexis's relief, on a different floor than hers. That evening, while Adrian sleeps off his jetlag, Alexis starts thinking about how she's going to break up with him. Should she wait until the end of the trip and pretend everything is okay? That just seems impossible, especially since he's staying in her house. Alexis decides it's better to rip the band aid off right away. So the following day, she sits him down.

[Alexis Stern]

I was like, adrian, I want to break up. If you want, you can stay at my house. But I'm like, I don't want to be with you anymore. And he was saying that I was making a mistake, that I wasn't thinking properly. And again, trying to play that guilt trip with me. I was so upset with him that I went up to my room. I had, like, a mental breakdown.

[Carl Miller]

After gathering herself, Alexis leaves the house with Adrian still in it to get some air.

[Alexis Stern]

And then afterwards, I had to go face Adrian again. He was telling me we weren't broken up, that it was invalid. It didn't count. It took him maybe by the third day to finally accept that we were broken up, but he still wanted to act like a couple. He wanted to hold my hand when we walked. I was like, no, we're broken up. I honestly don't even want to touch you. I eventually did cave because he was begging me and wouldn't take no for an answer. He was like, you know what? Fine, whatever. I'll hold your hand, but I'm not kissing you. And then he also would ask for, like, sexual favors after we had broken up, and I told him I didn't want to. But again, he played the guilt trip, victimized himself, saying, it'll just be this one time. So I was like, you know what? If it'll make you shut up, fine. Something I regret. I wish I would have stood my ground especially for that, as I didn't want to do it.

[Carl Miller]

While Alexis said that Adrian could continue to stay in her house, she is secretly hoping he'll just pack his bags and get on an early flight home. But she says he stays until the bitter end, and they pass the time by visiting local attractions at the zoo and the mall. It must have been an impossibly awkward week. So I can't imagine Alexis relief when it was finally time to drop him off at the airport and to close amicably but firmly this chapter of her life.

[Alexis Stern]

We said our goodbyes, we hugged, we didn't kiss. And I thought I would feel some sort of sadness, some regret, some remorse. I felt relief that he was finally leaving. And that's when I knew for sure that I was completely over him and us and anything in between. I was done.

[Carl Miller]

Adrian flies back to England, but they keep in touch with the odd message and video call. Some days it's just pleasantries, two friends with a complicated history catching up on life and work. Other days, Alexis says their conversations are barbed and bitter.

[Alexis Stern]

He was like Jekyll and Hyde. One minute he'd be fine being my friend, and next he would go off on me saying I was a cheating whore, saying that I ruined his life, that he hoped I never succeeded with my writing, a whole bunch of stuff.

[Carl Miller]

Then Adrian's anger allegedly morphs into something more dangerous. According to Alexis. He tells her that he's looking to.

[Alexis Stern]

Buy a gun, and that immediately threw me off. I was like, what do you mean? You want to get a Gun. He literally would vent to me saying how you hated guns, how you thought we needed stricter gun laws, and now you want one. Like, that did not add up to me at all. And that was, like, a really big flag for me that something wasn't right.

[Carl Miller]

Four months after Adrian's visit, it's clear to Alexis that her and Adrian are in completely different places. While he's allegedly talking about wanting to buy a gun, apparently for protection against something or someone she's dating again. And when she tells Adrian about the new man in her life, she says he loses it. A few days after Alexis told Adrian about her new boyfriend, she gets a call from the police. They tell her she needs to come into the station right away and that her parents are going to meet her there.

[Alexis Stern]

And I was thinking, well, crap, did I do something wrong? Like, am I in trouble?

[Carl Miller]

Alexis jumps in the car. While she makes a short drive to the police station, she racks her brains for possible reasons behind their urgent call. She can't make heads or tails of it. Why would her parents be there? Why would the police want anything to do with her in the first place?

[Alexis Stern]

Is someone hurt? Like, am I gonna get arrested?

[Carl Miller]

When she arrives at the station, she's met by an officer who breaks the ice with one chilling question.

[Alexis Stern]

First thing the cop asked me is, what have you done lately to piss someone?

[Carl Miller]

Having arrived at Big Lake police station, an officer takes Alexis into a private room with recording equipment laid out on a table.

[Alexis Stern]

You sat me down and you said that someone had put a hit out on me on the dark web.

[Carl Miller]

I can see on your website that the services you offer are murder, assault, and arson. The order was placed under the alias mastermind365. At first, they didn't want Alexis killed. They had another plan in mind. I was wondering if the hitman on this website also do other jobs. A kidnapping is the job that I had in mind. I would also like to ask whether the hitman would provide a location to keep the target during the kidnapping or if I would need to provide a location myself. Thank you for your assistance. But a week later, they wrote another message requesting a change to their order. Hello, Admin. I have changed my mind since I previously spoke to you. I would not like this person to be kidnapped. Instead, I would just like this person to be shot and killed. Where, how, and what with does not bother me at all. I would just write this person dead.

[Alexis Stern]

And I laughed. I was like, are you kidding me right now? I had just turned 18, and this is what I get. Someone Wants me dead. The cop, he told me that he wasn't supposed to show me this for whatever reason. And he showed me that it was a picture of me, a description of what I looked like, my home address, and where I worked.

[Carl Miller]

In total, mastermind365 had paid $5,600 for the kidnapping. Then murder plot. The officer asks Alexis if there's anyone she can think of who might have posted the order.

[Alexis Stern]

I was like, I don't know, it could be this person, this person, this person. And I was giving him all these names, and I was like, wait a minute. I was like, it could be this guy, it could be Adrian.

[Carl Miller]

Alexis and her family are understandably terrified that whoever is behind the order could try and find some other way to have her harmed. Panicked and scared, they decide to skip town and hit the road.

[Alexis Stern]

We found someone to take our dogs. When we packed up, we left for a couple days. Just out of the blue, my dad packed his gun. We brought our guns with for safety. When we were staying in the hotel room, my dad had put a chair in front of the door, under the door handle, so it would give us enough time at least if something were to happen. We paid with everything with cash so we couldn't be traced if we were being watched.

[Carl Miller]

The Stern family starts doing whatever they can to protect themselves. They take self defense classes. Alexis buys a pink and purple dagger. Her parents ban her from driving alone.

[Alexis Stern]

Yeah, I'm not dead, but I'm not living either. I'm just in a stasis, hoping maybe something will happen. And I wasn't gonna deal with that. I needed my freedom back because I felt like I was stuck. I didn't wanna be stuck anymore.

[Carl Miller]

Now, I didn't have anything to do with this case back when it happened. This case took place years before I started trying to reach the targets on the kill list. It was Chris Monteiro, the Dark Web investigator and hacker I've been working with, who tipped off the police about the threat against Alexa. And at first, they seemed to jump into action. But then the tempo of the investigation began to ebb. Maybe due to resources, maybe jurisdiction, maybe both. The police ultimately decided they couldn't pursue the investigation themselves. And so they handed it over to the FBI. And after that, the case becomes a bit of a hot potato. Over the next 18 months, Alexis seems to have had an endless cycle of case handlers, until eventually she was passed off to an entirely different agency, the Department of Homeland Security. But still, no arrest, no big leads, no interviews. It must have been infuriating.

[Alexis Stern]

It seemed like it was going nowhere. That was. They said it was a priority and that they were trying to help me out. But they flagged Adrian because I told him this is who I thought it was. I was pretty sure that it was him. And they said they flagged him, but there really wasn't much they could do. It's like, okay, so am I just going to live in fear, hoping that he doesn't actually come here and try and finish the job himself? So I guess I kind of just dropped off the face of the earth.

[Carl Miller]

One night whilst having dinner with her family, Alexis glances at her phone.

[Alexis Stern]

We're talking. All of a sudden, I have a text message from Adrian on WhatsApp. And so he messaged me asking if we could video chat or that if he just wanted to know if I was okay and he wanted pictures.

[Carl Miller]

Alexis texts the agent who's handling her case, asking for advice. She's not spoken to Adrian for a couple of weeks, and all of a sudden, in what must be the middle of the night for him, Alexis says he's texting, asking to see her face. The case handler tells her not to send any photos or do any video calls. So Alexis tells Adrian she's on a break from social media, which is why she's not been responding to his messages. But she alleges Adrian gets insistent.

[Alexis Stern]

Just one photo. It's going to take you, like, five seconds. It's not going to take that long. I was like, no, I don't want to. At that moment, I was like, that's just way too weird.

[Carl Miller]

Feeling unnerved by Adrian's insistence, Alexis calls up her agent.

[Alexis Stern]

It sounds like he's wanting proof that I'm alive.

[Carl Miller]

Now Alexis is convinced that Adrian's behind the kill order. She says as much to the authorities. And yet there's one crucial detail to this story. No one has ever been arrested for trying to kill Alexis. As far as the authorities are concerned, this case is completely unsolved. So what is the actual evidence at play against Adrian here? Has he been falsely accused by Alexis, or is he responsible for planning her murder?

[Alexis Stern]

Foreign.

[Carl Miller]

There'S two key pieces of evidence that, at least in Alexa's mind, really point the finger at Adrian. The first is the timing. So whoever mastermind365 is, they upgraded the hit order from a kidnapping to a murder at almost the exact moment when Alexis told Adrian that she had a new boyfriend.

[Caroline Thornham]

It's certainly no surprise to me that this is a really key piece of evidence in Alexis's mind. Right.

[Carl Miller]

That's Caroline Thornham, my producer, who's been with me throughout this whole investigation into the kill list.

[Caroline Thornham]

I think what is interesting to me is, like, why would you start off wanting somebody kidnapped and then want them killed? Alexis's account of their relationship presents Adrian as somebody who is continually not interested in really how she feels about them being together. You know, even at the point where she's literally trying to break up with him. According to Alexis, Adrian is trying to overrule that and talk her out of it and persuade her to do things his way. And Alexis is obviously thinking that Adrien was upset about their breakup and also upset about the fact that she was seeing somebody new.

[Carl Miller]

And if she's right, she's pointing to the most common motive we've ever seen on the kill list, which is a desire to control someone. And when that fails, a desire that no one else can have that person anymore.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, I mean, if you just look at the spreadsheet that we have, that has a record of what arrests have been made that we know of, you know, where we're now, we've now seen a perpetrator identified and we literally have a column of what the perpetrator's relationship is to the victim. And in the vast majority of those, they're an ex partner. So the fact that this order is a kidnapping, then a killing, and the timing lines up with Alexis's situation, it would make you think, wouldn't it? I would say, at the very least, it's a striking coincidence.

[Carl Miller]

But striking coincidence is only what it is too. You know, there's no really strong evidence that actually links Adrian in that way to the murder order.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, exactly. All of this, I think, is interesting in the context of Alexis's theory. But ultimately, you know, none of that is going to stand up in a course of law. It's totally circumstantial and it's not anywhere near enough on its own to prove this.

[Carl Miller]

The second key piece of evidence are the actual messages themselves. As Alexis has read them all, she thinks she can recognise Adrian in The messages that mastermind365 has sent.

[Alexis Stern]

The language that mastermind365 used, the spelling, everything just lined up perfectly with how Adrian would talk or type.

[Caroline Thornham]

There's a couple of small details that she really focuses on, like the order saying thank you all as one word with no space between it. She says that's a regular feature of how Adrian would write to her.

[Alexis Stern]

As soon as I saw the messages, I knew 100% who it was. I Had no doubt in my mind at that point.

[Carl Miller]

It's a beguiling thing to do, isn't it, to think that you can identify someone by how they type, really, in.

[Caroline Thornham]

A way that's sort of a kind of microcosm of some of the issues that are at play here across their whole relationship.

[Carl Miller]

Right.

[Caroline Thornham]

Because how do you know someone from the messages you've seen online from them? You know, how well do Alexis and Adrian really know each other? They've called and spoken and messaged every day, and then, on the other hand, they've only met a small handful of times in person. And it begs this question of how well can you know somebody online like this? Because Alexis has communicated with Adrian so intensely for a period of years now, yet if he did this, that's something she would never have thought he was capable of before. And you have this disjoint between knowing somebody really well and then or miss them being like a stranger to you.

[Carl Miller]

That's probably one of the features of online relationships, that even though they have only met each other a few times, they would have seen thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of each other's written text. Like, if anyone would be able to tell Adrian by the writing style, it's Alexis.

[Caroline Thornham]

And I also think that it must be tricky if you're in her position and you don't have many enemies, you don't have much else to go on. Right. You're making theories about things because you have so many unanswered questions. What we've learned from our experiences is just how often you can can be wrong with that, too. I remember a case in Germany where I was looking at somebody who I knew was the partner of the victim and questioning whether they might be behind it. And actually, it turned out it was someone completely different. And my assumption there was totally wrong. At the same time, I can see from Alexis's perspective why she would at least be suspicious of Adrian. But what is Adrian's answer to all of this? What is his version of events if he disagrees with Alexis's account?

[Carl Miller]

We have tried to contact Adrian, but he's never responded to us. But to be clear, he says that the allegations that Alexis makes are preposterous and flatly untrue. We know this because Adrian did an interview with the daily mail in December 2019, where he denied the claims Alexis made against him in the press. Here are his words read by an actor. I can't believe what I'm hearing and what she's accusing me of. I'm traumatized and hurt. She would even think that it could be me. I would never think of killing anyone. I've never so much as harmed a fly. I once really loved Alexis, and we parted on bad terms because I wanted the relationship to survive. Of course I was heartbroken. That's just normal when couples break up. But that doesn't mean I wanted her killed. None of the things that Alexis has pointed out is concrete evidence against me. It's just flimsy nonsense. Sometimes I write thank you as one word, and sometimes two. I have bad grammar, but that doesn't mean I'm guilty of ordering somebody's murder. He also says that he just simply didn't have the money to make that kind of payment to a site, that it wasn't possible that he could have gathered together that cash.

[Caroline Thornham]

So that's Adrian's version of events. But it feels like there's a lot of things within that that a police investigation would have been able to get to the bottom of. You know, did he have enough money? You know, has he ever been on the darknet? And did he buy the bitcoin that was involved in this order?

[Carl Miller]

We don't know what the police did, but we do know that the investigation never produced any kind of outcome. So officially, the case is completely unsolved.

[Caroline Thornham]

In the course of our investigation, I made police contact in the uk, including a unit in Bath. And so, with the hope of getting some kind of answer for Alexis, I took the mastermind365 file and I sent them to the police officer I'd been dealing with. Really, I had no response as to whether they were even able to investigate them, whether they had looked into them and had found there was nothing there or really any sense of any real interest in pursuing it.

[Carl Miller]

Why hasn't that happened?

[Caroline Thornham]

I mean, there's a couple of theories, one of which is that it's a jurisdictional issue, because Adrian is based in the UK and Alexis is based in America. And for an investigation to turn up the kind of concrete evidence that would be needed to prove this one way or the other, that gets very difficult when you're dealing with stuff abroad.

[Carl Miller]

I think it's worth reflecting also that these cases are probably still solvable. Like, we know now how these investigations work, and we know that a lot of the evidence that police bring into the courtroom are technical, and those technical pieces of information probably are still out there somewhere, whether that's in a bank, whether that's on the blockchain, or whether that's on a server somewhere. I still think it's possible for police forces to actually still get to the bottom of this? I haven't completely given up hope.

[Caroline Thornham]

I think you're right to a point there, Carl. But also, as much as I would like to think that Alexis's case would be properly investigated now that there's even more proof just how legitimate this information is and how real the intentions of the people paying money on this site are, you know, that's actually not the reality that we've seen for most of these victims. We've reported something like over 170 cases to the police and only seen 30 arrests or so that we can count. And there are many more Alexises still out there right now whose cases still don't seem to be any closer to a resolution either. And so long as there are unanswered questions here, you know, this is something that's going to hang over Alexis and over Adrian indefinitely. Right? When we spoke to Alexis, she told us that she's still nervous, just even about the idea of talking to us and opening this whole thing up again.

[Alexis Stern]

To be honest with you, I have been thinking a lot about the interview. I was extremely nervous about today because the idea of getting justice and having at least something be done would be absolutely amazing. But the fact that there's so many, and it's not just me, there's hundreds of people that are going through this.

[Carl Miller]

So what are we left with then, at the end of this story? On the one hand, Alexis believes there are grounds to suspect that Adrian tried to have her killed. On the other, in the eyes of the law, Adrian is entirely innocent. He's never been arrested, nor have the allegations Alexis makes against him ever been tested in court. He vehemently denies being involved, and there's no hard evidence tying him in any way to the crime. So what this case shows me at least, is a mess that gets left behind when the police fail to get to the bottom of the case. What's left is a cloud of suspicion that never fully dissipates. And that need for closure must surely be as important for Adrian as it is for Alexis. If he's innocent, he deserves to be fully exonerated. And Alexis deserves to know beyond any doubt who tried to have her killed. In that context, it would be easy for Alexis to crumble. If someone tried to kill me and the police didn't figure out who it was, I wouldn't have words of how scared, how confused, probably how angry I would be as well. But in spite of everything, Alexis isn't that. She's trying to move on with her life. She plans to write a book about what happened. And with all that suffering and worry and vulnerability that this has brought into Alexis life, she's also come out the other end, perhaps wiser, perhaps more resilient than she was before.

[Alexis Stern]

Like I lived through someone wanting to put a hit on on me. Not a lot of people can say.

[Carl Miller]

In the next episode of Kill List, we dive into one of our biggest outstanding mysteries. In the Spanish seaside town of Pontevedra, Ana Garcia lives round the corner from the man the police suspect tried to have her killed. Why, after all these years, can Anna still not get justice?

[Caroline Thornham]

When I'm driving, I'm looking through the mirror which car is coming in which direction? I get scared and write down the license plate of the car that approached me.

[Carl Miller]

His defense is going to be very difficult. He could set very little to avoid the blame. If you like Kill Lists, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and Novel this is Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carl Miller. The reporter for this episode is Caroline Thornham and it was produced and written by Anna Sin Fields and our series producer, Tom Wright. Kill List is also produced by Jay Kotajevic and our assistant producer is Amalia Sallund. Our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lena Chang. Additional research from Chris Monteiro For Wondery. Our senior producer is Mandy Goranson. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolf for Novel, Sarah Mathurs is our managing producer and Callum Plews is our senior managing producer for Wandering. Original music by Skylar Gerdman and Martin Linabel. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Daniel Kempson for Novel. Willard Foxton is creative Director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for Novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty.