Cedar City | 13

Summary

Kill List: Cedar City | Episode 13 Summary

Release Date: December 10, 2024
Host: Carl Miller
Produced by Wondery | Novel

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Introduction

In Episode 13 of Kill List, titled "Cedar City," host Carl Miller delves into a harrowing true story that intertwines obsession, family turmoil, and the dark corridors of the internet. This episode uncovers the chilling narrative of Chris Pence, a father of sixteen, whose actions spiral into a murder-for-hire plot targeting his children's biological parents.

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The Pence Family Dynamics

The story begins in the Pence family home near Cedar City, Utah, where Chris Pence, a 40-year-old IT security expert working remotely for Microsoft, leads a large evangelical Christian family. With sixteen children ranging from infants to college-age teenagers, Chris epitomizes the archetypal devoted father. Each morning starts with Bible study, emphasizing the Pence belief that children are "a Blessing" (00:00).

Notable Quote:
“In the Pence family, children are, as Chris likes to say, a Blessing.” – Carl Miller (00:00)

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The Adoption of Christina and Francisco’s Children

The pivotal moment unfolds during a family RV trip in October 2018 when the Pences encounter Christina and Francisco, a struggling couple from Massachusetts seeking help for their children. Christina reaches out through a homeschooling Facebook group, revealing alarming household issues, including Francisco’s alleged inappropriate behavior and financial instability (16:41).

Key Details:

• Initial Arrangement: Temporary foster placement for up to five children.
• Permanent Adoption: In December 2019, fearing their children would be split up by authorities, Christina and Francisco agree to permanently adopt their children through the Pences.

Notable Quote:
“We plan on being their lifelong family. We are committed to our adopted children the same as our biological children.” – Michelle Pence (20:00)

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Rising Tensions and FBI Involvement

Post-adoption, the Pences relocate to Texas, where the integration of the adoptive children proves tumultuous. Michelle Pence expresses frustration over behavioral issues through a blog, highlighting increasing household stress (25:13). Concurrently, Christina and Francisco’s agitation grows as they follow the Pences to Texas, seeking renewed contact and custody of their children.

Events Leading to FBI Intervention:

• Christina and Francisco’s persistent efforts to regain custody lead to heightened tensions.
• In May 2021, Christina and Francisco relocate to rural upstate New York, distancing themselves physically but maintaining attempts to reconnect with the Pences.

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The FBI Raid and Interrogation

The tension culminates in a clandestine FBI raid on the Pence household (06:19). Agent Brian Dakar interrogates Chris Pence in a seemingly cordial manner before revealing evidence linking him to a murder-for-hire website through a confiscated kill list (31:19).

Notable Interrogation Moments:

• Friendly Approach: Agents engage in small talk to lower Chris’s guard.

  Quote:
  “He’s obviously an amazing father. We need you to help us.” – Agent Brian Dakar (31:19)

• Confession: Faced with irrefutable evidence, Chris admits to paying $16,000 to eliminate Christina and Francisco to prevent the return of his adopted children (35:34).

Notable Quote:
“So what you’re telling me is that you paid $15,000 on the murder for hire website to have Francisco Christina killed.” – Agent Brian Dakar (35:34)

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Unraveling the Truth: Allegations vs. Reality

Following Chris’s confession, producer Caroline Thornham investigates the veracity of the abuse allegations against Christina and Francisco. She uncovers conflicting narratives:

• Christina and Francisco’s Defense: They deny any abuse, attributing disciplinary actions to religiously motivated “biblical spanking” and asserting that allegations stemmed from Francisco’s pornography issues (42:05).

  Quote:
  “We never would have expected this from the man we thought we knew and chose to entrust our children to.” – Christina (39:55)

• Pences’ Accusations: Chris contends that Francisco’s pornography addiction and inappropriate behavior justified extreme measures to protect their adopted children (43:29).

Key Findings:

• Lack of Concrete Evidence: While Francisco acknowledged a pornography addiction, no definitive court judgment substantiated the abuse claims.
• Complex Family Interactions: Both families exhibit poor communication and mutual distrust, exacerbating the emotional strain on the children involved.

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Consequences and Aftermath

Chris Pence pledges guilty and receives a seven-year prison sentence (50:38). Despite his family's unwavering support, the ripple effects of his actions leave unresolved tensions and psychological scars on all parties involved.

Impact on the Children:

• Adopted Children: Continue living with the Pences, grappling with the knowledge that their biological parents were targeted for murder.
• Biological Parents: Christina and Francisco remain active, attempting to maintain a connection with their children through limited contact.

Notable Quote:
“On the next episode of Kill List, a young woman in Bath, England, discovers that someone somewhere is watching her, and it’s up to her to work out just who her stalker could be.” – Pilot Teaser (54:47)

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Conclusion and Reflection

"Cedar City" presents a deeply unsettling case where religious devotion, familial love, and internet-fueled obsession collide with tragic consequences. The episode raises critical questions about the lengths one might go to protect family, the effectiveness of law enforcement methods, and the lasting impact of such actions on innocent lives. As Caroline Thornham aptly summarizes, the true cost of Chris Pence’s choices reverberates through both families, leaving an indelible mark that challenges our understanding of morality and justice.

Closing Reflection:
“This situation could be even darker and more complex than law enforcement first thought.” – Carl Miller (38:15)

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Key Takeaways

• Hidden Dangers of the Dark Web: The episode underscores the perilous nature of anonymous online platforms facilitating heinous crimes.
• Complexities of Family Dynamics: It highlights how blended families and adoption can sometimes lead to fraught relationships and unintended consequences.
• Investigative Depth: Through meticulous journalism, the episode reveals the multifaceted layers of truth, bias, and human emotion inherent in such tragic narratives.

For listeners intrigued by this case and eager to explore more gripping true stories, Kill List continues to unravel the darkest corners of human intent and action.

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Note: All allegations of abuse by Christina and Francisco remain unproven in court, and both parties deny wrongdoing. This summary is based on episode content and does not reflect any legal resolutions beyond Chris Pence’s confession and sentencing.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandery subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandri in the Wandary app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, it's Carl. A quick warning before we start that this episode includes allegations of child abuse. Eleven miles southwest of Cedar City, Utah, the Pent family home sits as a dot of white against the arid and unchanging landscape. The three story seven bedroom house lies in a shallow valley. The backdrop is a mountain range of iron red rock. It's just before dawn and for Christopher Pence, the day begins much like any other. Chris is 40 years old and looks like your typical all American dad with curly brown hair and square glasses. He looks like he is an IT security expert. He works remotely for Microsoft from his home office. Barefoot, Chris leaves his wife Michelle and pads down the hallway to wake up some of his children, including his daughter Serenity. Today is Serenity's 11th birthday, but even so, for her and all the Pence children old enough, the day begins with Bible study. In the Pence family, children are, as Chris likes to say, a Blessing. They have 16 children in total, from a tiny baby through to college age teenagers. Chris settles onto the floor of the living room with his children gathered around him. They begin with a prayer before turning to the scripture. It's still dark outside as they read. The moment of quiet reflection lasts for 20 minutes and then it is interrupted by a loud and sudden bang and suddenly the house is lit up. When Chris looks out the window, he can see a fleet of SUVs parked around the drive. He walks past the school room where his children do their lessons and unlocks the deadbolt that fastens the front door. Chris peers out into the cold darkness of the early door. No fewer than 14 people stare back at him, bulletproof vests under their FBI jackets, pistols and rifles drawn. They're coming in whether Chris Pence lets them or not. My name is Carl Miller. Since 2020, I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered. We broke into a scam Murder for Hire website on the dark web and it allowed us to see every order being placed, real money being paid to have real people murdered. The tally of these targets is now in the hundreds. We call it the kill list. So far we've managed to help law enforcement arrest or Convict More than 30 people all around the world. In doing so, we've learned that the kill list is a window into the lives of people caught up in situations you just wouldn't believe. This story stands out though, as one where the Murder order itself is not the strangest nor the darkest part. The people at the heart of this case aren't the targets, but a group of five children caught in the middle of an extraordinary feud between two warring families. This episode is brought to you by Audible, where you can find audiobooks and exclusive content to provide inspiration, comfort, insight or guidance. Whatever you're looking for. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com list or text list. L I S T to 500. 500.

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[Carl Miller]

From Wandery and novel. I'm Carmilla and this is Kill List.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay? So there you go. I appreciate everything. Chris, please get in. Relax.

[Carl Miller]

Within 15 minutes of the FBI's arrival, Chris Pence has been escorted outside and into the back seats of an unmarked suv. With him is Special Agent Brian Dakar.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Are you warm?

[Chris Pence]

You're getting there.

[Carl Miller]

We've managed to get hold of the tapes, so what you're hearing now is a live FBI interrogation.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

I appreciate you being so understanding.

[Chris Pence]

Yeah, I'd love to know what's going on.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Oh, yeah. No, no. We're gonna get all your questions answered.

[Carl Miller]

Inside the house, Chris's family have been rounded up and taken to the living room whilst a team of agents carry out their search. And yet, despite the early morning raid, the drawn guns, and the search warrant, Chris Pence is not under arrest.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Just to be very clear, right. We do this to everybody. We don't want any confusion. You're not under arrest at all. That's not what we're doing. We're just. We're here to talk. You're under no obligation to talk to us. We would appreciate your help. Okay. In just trying to figure out.

[Carl Miller]

As they begin to talk, the whole tone is bizarrely friendly. By the time a second FBI agent Chris Anderson opens the door to join them, he finds the two men chatting away like a couple of dads at the school gates.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

I was just telling what this cruise guy went. He's from. Originally from, like, the Seattle area.

[Carl Miller]

After some more small talk, the agents discreetly turn the conversation towards a subject they really want to discuss.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

With Chris, what we're dealing with in this here is that there's just some. There's some suspicious activity on the Internet. And our obligation is to investigate that and figure out what is going on with it.

[Carl Miller]

Then they start to ask questions about the Dark web.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Yeah. You're aware of it? Have you ever been on the dark web?

[Chris Pence]

No.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Never?

[Chris Pence]

No.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay, so if not the dark Web, like, we're all adults here. Okay? It's regrown men in the car here. So. But. So, like, when I ask you this, like, what's. Tell me about the worst website you've ever been on.

[Carl Miller]

Tell me about the word. What's the worst website you've ever been on? It's an excruciating question.

[Chris Pence]

Uh, I've looked at porn before.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Porn, okay. That's not a crime to look at porn. Right. Did you do that on the regular Internet?

[Chris Pence]

Embarrassed or ashamed about it?

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Well, no. Yeah, but like I said, we're all adults here. I don't know an adult that hasn't seen porn. Okay, so let's get that. Let's get that out of the way. I don't know an adult that hasn't seen porn. Okay. Do you do that on the regular Internet?

[Chris Pence]

Yes.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay. What kind of porn are you looking at?

[Chris Pence]

I'm not sure. Where is this going?

[Carl Miller]

I'm not sure where this is going. The whole atmosphere is deeply uncomfortable. First the agents act like they're Chris buddies. Now they're asking him about his porn habits. And with no real explanation about what on earth is going on. But I can tell you exactly what's going on. Just under two months earlier, we passed the FBI a kill order. And that kill order led the FBI straight to Chris Pence.

[Chris Pence]

Good day, admin. I have a couple targets, husband and wife, that I'm meeting removed. However, it is known that they and I don't quite see eye to eye on something.

[Carl Miller]

The user requests that the killing look like a robbery gone wrong.

[Chris Pence]

They most likely will have three children in the car with them. I am really trying to avoid them from being hurt.

[Carl Miller]

Then they settle on a price. $16,000. 8,000 per person, which is quickly transferred. The targets are a married couple living in Albany, New York. The user supplies photos, an address, and their names. Christina and Franzisco. The FBI took our information on the kill order and traced the Bitcoin wallet account back to Crispence. But the FBI are worried that with so many people in Chris Pence's house, he might be able to argue that it wasn't him who placed the kill order. The FBI say that without a confession, there isn't enough evidence to arrest Chris. So this strange, meandering conversation with Chris, it's all to get to the bottom of what connects him to this couple, Cristina and Francisco, two and a half thousand miles away on the other side of the country. And to make sense of why he wants them dead. The two FBI agents quickly changed the subject again, away from Chris Pence's porn habits and to his unorthodox family situation.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

You know, I was just doing the math on this. You have a lot. I was just doing. I was thinking this in my head. Those are all your biological children too?

[Chris Pence]

No, we adopted five.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

You adopted five? So they're all still. All five are their brothers and sisters?

[Chris Pence]

Yeah.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Wow, that's amazing. You adopted five kids from one family. Oh, my.

[Chris Pence]

Seems like you guys are cohesive now.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

I mean, I tell you, it's amazing. You obviously are a wonderful provider for this family, and I haven't had a chance to really talk to your wife or anyone else, but I imagine that the love you have for these kids is.

[Carl Miller]

Is as if they're your own.

[Chris Pence]

They are.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Yeah, there it is. Perfect. Yeah, there it is.

[Carl Miller]

This seemingly innocent, almost wayward approach to questioning isn't an accident because it will pull this conversation towards answering the case's biggest mystery, the reason why Chris Pence might have wanted to attempt a double murder. The FBI suspect that what connects Chris Pence to the couple in Albany, the couple they suspect him of trying to murder, is that they are the biological parents of his five adopted children.

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[Carl Miller]

Need a moment of respite.

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[Carl Miller]

It's got it all.

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[Carl Miller]

We get support from Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. It's a spot for incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list. Uncommon Goods has products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US Meaning you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. So for me, I bought a gift for a friend who loves fruit, and the gift are these small woolen things that you put on the top of bananas to apparently keep them fresh for longer. Sounds a bit odd. I mean, definitely uncommon, but I genuinely think he'll love them. And with every purchase you make and Uncommon Goods, they'll give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com list that's UncommonGoods.com L I S T for 15 off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods. We're all out of the ordinary. Chris Pence has 16 children in total. 11 biological kids with his wife Michelle, and five children, all adopted from one couple. The FBI steers the conversation to these two people, Cristina and Francisco. Agent Dakar asks Chris how he met them and their kids.

[Chris Pence]

No, they're. We met them in Massachusetts.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

You met them in Massachusetts?

[Chris Pence]

Yeah.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Did you live there?

[Chris Pence]

No.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Oh.

[Chris Pence]

So do you want the long story or the short version?

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Give me the long one. This is. This is. Yeah, go ahead.

[Chris Pence]

So we had a child and decided to take the paternity leave and go on a six week vacation.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay.

[Carl Miller]

It all starts with a road trip the Pence family took in October 2018 in their RV. Back then, they were living in Washington state and they were celebrating the birth of their 10th child. The reason that Chris and Michelle have so many children is because of their faith as evangelical Christians. Chris says that as a younger man, he wanted to be an investment banker. He was motivated by money, but it made him miserable. And God revealed to him that every new child was a blessing from heaven and that the real meaning of life was to lead his family. The Pence family were driving through Massachusetts when Chris's wife Michelle got a message online. It was from Christina, who found Michelle through a Facebook group they were both members of, for moms who homeschool their children.

[Chris Pence]

We were traveling around and a lady reached out saying that she needed help with her child children and she was In Massachusetts. And we just happened to be driving through Massachusetts at the time. So we said, well, we can stop and pray with you, but we're on vacation and so we're not planning on staying a whole lot longer. So we stopped, we prayed with them. The mom basically said, look, I need somewhere for my kids to go. They're not a safe here.

[Carl Miller]

According to Chris, out of the blue, he and his wife have been asked by a total stranger if they will help rescue their children by taking them away.

[Chris Pence]

She didn't think the children were safe with her husband because of sexual tendencies by the father. By the father?

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Towards the children?

[Chris Pence]

No.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay.

[Chris Pence]

No. Just towards women in general.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay. So he had some behaviors. Sexual behaviors, I guess. Not towards the show. Okay. Okay.

[Chris Pence]

She said they weren't safe with her husband.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

They weren't safe with her husband.

[Chris Pence]

That's what she said.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

She didn't give any reasons for that.

[Chris Pence]

She mentioned that he looked at porn.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

He looked at porn.

[Chris Pence]

That's what she said.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

We all do though. We just talked about that.

[Chris Pence]

But that's the reason she gave for them not being safe.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay. Maybe he was exposing them to porn. You don't know.

[Chris Pence]

I don't know.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay.

[Carl Miller]

Beyond the father's alleged issues with porn, there were other problems too. The family were not wealthy and their housing situation was extremely insecure. They were a family of eight people, two adults and six children living in an rv. Winter was fast approaching and they had not been able to find any secure housing.

[Chris Pence]

So we said, are you sure? Yes. Well, okay, tell you what, we'll go to Rhode island, we'll stay there a couple days, we'll come back and if this is still something you're interested in, we'll talk about it even further. So we went to Rhode island, came back and she said, yeah, look, this is the best thing for my children. Can you just take them and go?

[Carl Miller]

I really struggle to make sense of this situation. The Pence's are being asked to take a group of children from a couple of strangers after only exchanging a handful of online messages without apparently any contact at all with the authorities and with only the vaguest of explanations for why the children should leave their parents. What we do know is that Chris and Michelle were looking to adopt for a while. They put up an advert online a few years earlier. Chris wife Michelle had her own experiences of the care system and she wanted to give a set of siblings a childhood she'd never had. Her words from her adverts are read by Nectar.

[Michelle Pence]

I was a foster child myself. I Understand the struggles and pitfalls of going through the system and never being adopted. My sibling group was also split up, which was harder on me than losing my mother. We plan on being their lifelong family. We are committed to our adopted children the same as our biological children.

[Carl Miller]

Their online advert stated the pences could take a sibling set of up to five children, But Christina and Francisco had six. So the initial arrangement was for the pences to take all but the eldest boy for six months, Then they would return to their birth parents. It was meant to be a temporary placement, Not a permanent adoption. Finally, they gave the mother, Christina, One last chance to change her mind.

[Chris Pence]

Just asked. I said, look, we know Washington is a long way away from Massachusetts. Are you sure you want to do this? And they said, yes, this is the best thing. So we left. We got to Massachusetts with 10 children and left there with 15.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

You left on the same trip?

[Chris Pence]

Yeah.

[Carl Miller]

There's a moment here that we know must have happened, but we aren't able to see a moment. That must have been just so incredibly difficult. The children, these two girls and three boys who all seemed to be aged between one and 10, would have packed up their things and hopped into the rv and then driven away with the pences, Leaving their old family behind. I can't imagine what that experience must have been like for the children to suddenly be taken away like that. Chris tells the FBI a story that gives us a clue. With their five new children in tow, along with the 10 they already had, the pences carried on their holiday. The new enlarged family took a visit to mount Vernon in Virginia, George Washington's home and plantation.

[Chris Pence]

One of the workers there said, wow, this is a lot of children. Are they all one family? Yeah, they're. We're all one family. And the second oldest daughter we picked up said, no, there's 10 of them and five of us. And they took us from our parents in Massachusetts.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Hmm.

[Chris Pence]

Okay. All right, let's keep moving.

[Carl Miller]

At the end of the vacation, the five children came back to Washington with the pences. They were homeschooled just like the other pence children and just as they had been with their birth parents. So there were no public school teachers on either end of this exchange who would notice that five children had disappeared from one classroom and suddenly arrived in another. After six months, the birth parents, Cristina and Francisco, asked for the arrangement to be extended. And the pencers agreed. And what had started as a short term fostering situation Began to spool out into a seemingly indefinite limbo. When the authorities in Massachusetts Got wind of the situation. They reached out to the Pencers. The department of children and family services were already investigating the birth parents, Christina and Francisco, regarding their remaining eldest child. And they wanted to find out where the other five were.

[Chris Pence]

DCS came to us and said, we understand you have these five children.

[Carl Miller]

The Pences asked Christina what was going on.

[Chris Pence]

So then she said, it's not safe because we said, hey, look, DCS is talking to us about the children. And so she asked, well, would you consider adopting them?

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Okay.

[Chris Pence]

So we said, sure.

[Carl Miller]

The birth parents, Cristina and Francisco, were scared that if the kids came back to Massachusetts as they'd originally planned, the local authorities would have put them into foster care and split them up. And so, as they saw it, the only way of keeping hold of the children in some way was to allow them to be permanently adopted by the Pences. Adopting the kids was not straightforward, emotionally or practically. The authorities seem not to have been comfortable with the whole arrangement. But Cristina and Francisco would not risk the children being split in the care system if they let them return to Massachusetts very rapidly. An agreement was reached, and in December 2019, 14 months after their first meeting, the Pence's legally adopted the five children. With the already large family having now grown permanently larger, they needed to find somewhere new to live. So the Pences moved to a new home in Texas. But things did not go smoothly, and the Pence's quickly realized that their adopted children were struggling to adapt to their new life. Chris wife Michelle was stressed, and she vented her frustrations on a blog. Her words are read by an actor.

[Michelle Pence]

Keeping everyone busy has been an essential around here because the children miss their parents like crazy.

[Carl Miller]

She seemed frustrated to realize how different her new children were from her own and overwhelmed by the behavioral problems that followed the children's abrupt separation from their birth parents. She wrote about the newfound disharmony in her house and epic meltdowns.

[Michelle Pence]

Never have we had anyone struggle with sharing, and now it's a huge problem. Never have we had anyone seeking to undermine anyone else or using the level of sharp words and unkind attitudes that we see here now. Never have we seen anyone give an eye roll before this experience. Not to mention the screeching and yelling and whining that accompanies the above.

[Carl Miller]

However, this would not just be a question of five children coming to terms with their new life with the Pences, because pretty much as soon as the adoption was finalized, the birth parents, Christina and Francisco followed the Pences to Texas to try and be closer to the children they'd just given away. We have Cristina and Francisco's pictures from the kill order. Francisco is in his early 30s. He looks fresh faced, with glasses and a mohawk of dark hair sitting in the center of his otherwise shaved head. Cristina looks a little older. She has a round face, brown hair and a warm smile. Like the Pence's, they're also devoutly Christian. Christina signs off her emails. Daughter of the King of Kings in Texas. They moved about an hour and a half away from the Pencers new home. Now, exactly what happened next is contested, but here's the Pence's version of things. The birth parents were legally entitled to two visits per year over a period of five days together with the Pencers, they'd have days out together like trips to the zoo. But according to Chris, things did not go smoothly. For starters, the adopted children learned that Cristina and Francisco had decided to have two more children. According to Chris, this causes adopted kids to become upset and confused. Why would their biological parents give them up if they were going to have more? And the relationship between the Pence's and the birth parents was not just becoming more fractious, but also more intense.

[Chris Pence]

They were under the suspicion that they'd be able to move in with us and we one big happy family and we had to basically state, can't be like that.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

They wanted to move in with you. Wow.

[Chris Pence]

That's what it seemed like. They were really looking forward to moving their trailer down to our property, which we said no, they're really looking forward to moving within a block of us and going to the same church. We said it's not gonna work.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

It sounds like they, they were looking for a solution to have their cake and eat it too, get their kids away from the state in a protected, you know, custody situation with you guys, but still be able to be the parents.

[Chris Pence]

It sounds like that's what it sounded like.

[Carl Miller]

Chris claims that during these annual visits he was becoming increasingly concerned that Christina and Francisco were trying to drive a wedge between them and their adopted children.

[Chris Pence]

The birth parents were telling the adopted children that Michelle and I, the adopted parents, were not allowing the birth parents to come over.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Oh, oh, so she was feeding the kids.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

So he's got his problems and she's feeding the kids information that is supposed to look bad for you.

[Chris Pence]

It's certainly not helpful for the family.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

I can see where the friction is.

[Carl Miller]

Chris tells the FBI that things came to a head at a meeting at a Whataburger restaurant in Mineola, Texas.

[Chris Pence]

Ended up with them having a List of demands that they wanted of us.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

They provided you with a list of demands. Okay.

[Chris Pence]

Demands.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Hey, help us. Help us. We're in a really bad spot. We need you to adopt our kids and take care of them. But now we have demands.

[Chris Pence]

Yep. And we know that these demands don't have any legal standing, but they're demands.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Yep. Here we go. I'm getting frustrated for you.

[Carl Miller]

The Pences wanted to get away from Christina and Francisco. So after only a year of living in Texas, they packed up to Cedar City, Utah. They've got no connection to the area. Chris Pence just found the house online. Michelle gave birth to their 11th biological child, taking the total to 16. And they did not give Cristina and Francisco their new address, only a PO box that they could write to. So in May 2021, three months before the kill order was placed, Cristina and Francisco moved back to the east coast, to their present home in rural upstate New York. So far, everything Chris Pence is saying is pointing towards a strained relationship with his adopted children's birth parents. But it doesn't explain why a very religious father of 16 would resort to murder. For their part, the FBI have been carefully lulling Chris into a false sense of security. They've been peppering him with seemingly innocent, seemingly sympathetic questions that have helped to create a shared narrative about who he is. That he's a good dad with a beautiful home who would do anything for his children. But now Agent Dakar is ready to hit him with what they really know.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

You've been. You've been very helpful telling us everything about your family and your life. It's just. It gives us such a clear picture. The only problem I'm having is that I know that you've been on the dark web, okay? I know that you've been on some websites you shouldn't be on. In fact, I know you've been on a murder for hire website.

[Carl Miller]

He shows Chris the messages, the bitcoin wallet information, the IP Address, and the fact that all of it traces back to Chris.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

So we know that you run the murder for hire website. Okay. I understand why after talking to you. Yeah. Everything you're dealing with, everything that you're doing, you are the protector of these kids, okay? You are the savior of these kids, and you do this for the family. And it's clear to me. I didn't understand why before, but it's very clear to me that you would do anything for these children.

[Carl Miller]

He then pulls out something else. A baby book full of photos of Cristina and Francisco that were given to one of the younger children to help them know where they came from. And Agent Dakar focuses on one photo in particular.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

This picture here. That picture there is not on the Internet anywhere. We can't find it. And that's the picture that was submitted to the Murder for Hire website by you. You see where that's cropped out? Look at that. So I know that you took a photo of a photo and you submitted it to the Murder for Hire website. I know. I know all of this. Okay? That's why we're here today. Okay. All right? So what I need you to just do for me is help me understand what got you to that point. What got you to the point where you felt like you needed to have them killed. Because you told me there was friction. And I understand that. And I get it. I understand where you're coming from, okay? And you're obviously an amazing father. Okay? They pushed you to this. They pushed you and pushed you for years and years. They pushed you. Here's the good news. They're not dead. Okay? They're not dead. We got the site. What we want now are the people pulling the trigger. Those are the fish we're after. We want the big fish, the dangerous people. Chris, you're not a dangerous guy. You're just a father who loves his family. That's what you are. We need you to help us. Help us understand and then help us find these guys are pulling the trigger. I'm looking for the guy that is going around killing people. Give me a second.

[Chris Pence]

Take your time. On more than.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Sorry.

[Chris Pence]

On more than one occasion, the children have been abused through discipline. Truth. By the birth parents. And I know they're doing it to their other ones right now. Um.

[Carl Miller]

Chris goes on to make specific allegations involving the names of specific children, which we won't play you to protect their privacy. And pretty much immediately, he admits that he paid to have the birth parents Christina and Francisco killed.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

So what you're telling me is that you paid $15,000 on the murder for Hire website to have Francisco Christina killed.

[Carl Miller]

Now, it's important to stress that none of these allegations of abuse have ever been tested in court, nor have Christina or Francisco been charged with any crime. And they deny abusing their children. We'll be getting into that in more detail later on for the FBI. The crucial thing is that Chris has confessed to the murder plot, and now they've got what they came for. He's swiftly arrested, read his rights, and handcuffed. As he sits on the back seat, he considers what he's done and what now lies ahead of him.

[Chris Pence]

Have I ruined my life? It is a hard road. It's not going to be peaches and cream, but you'll get through it. And I think there's a pretty good chance that you still have some quality of life ahead of you. Okay, thank you for whatever that's worth.

[Carl Miller]

Before they leave to go to jail and then caught, the FBI, ask Cross Chris if he wants to talk to his wife Michelle.

[Chris Pence]

Would you like that or what would you prefer? I don't know. Probably not. I'd have nothing to say.

[Carl Miller]

But then, just before he's taken away, Agent Dakar runs back with a message.

[Special Agent Brian Dakar]

Hey, Chris, couple things. I just spoke to Michelle. A couple things. First, she asked if she could give you at least a message. And it's as simple as, of course they're upset. She's come from her. She's very upset, of course. But your family, they're going to stand by you and you're going to get through it together.

[Carl Miller]

In spite of everything he's done, Chris Pence's family are standing by him. And based on what he's told the FBI, it seems like this situation could be even darker and more complex than law enforcement first thought. But this is a man who has every reason to lie here to make his actions seem more morally defensible. Which raises the question, did Francisco and Cristina really abuse their children?

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[Carl Miller]

This is not the first time we've heard allegations of child abuse on the kill list. And when allegations like this are made, it's important to take them seriously. But we also have to bear in mind that Chris Pence has every reason to try and make his crime seem more justifiable.

[Caroline Thornham]

This is definitely one of, if not the most complicated cases we've ever seen.

[Carl Miller]

That's Caroline Thornham, my producer. She's been investigating the evidence to try and find out the answer to two really key questions. Number one, what is the truth, if any, behind the allegation that Cristina and Francisco abused their children? And number two, were they trying to get their children back.

[Caroline Thornham]

One of the things that's really troubling as a journalist here is that we only have one side of the story to go off. So the first thing I did was reach out to the birth parents, Christina and Francisco, to see if they might be willing to give us their side of the story. And it wasn't long before I was on the phone talking directly with Christina.

[Christina]

So when the agent called us and let us know that you might be contacting us, I decided to write up a little thing because I don't want to say too much, I don't want to regret what I say. But I do have a couple of comments that I would be comfortable being quoted on, so I could read it to you if you want.

[Caroline Thornham]

Christina, read me the statement. It's a little hard to hear, so I'll read her statement for clarity. We never would have expected this from the man we thought we knew and chose to entrust our children to. We don't expect to understand why he chose to do what he's confessed to doing, but we choose forgiveness and we pray for him and for God's will in the whole legal process. Our hearts go out to his family for all the ways this changes their lives. Our desire is for open communication and trust going forward with the adoptive mother and family. There was no intent to regain custody. Our goal in conversation was always to restore open communication and trust. Now, this statement only gets us so far in answering the questions we have. So my colleagues and I have been digging through the court documents, and we've also been talking with Christina over email to try and get her in Francisco's side of things. So one of the things that makes this case so confusing is that there are so many children between these two families. When it comes to Christina and Francisco, there are eight children that we need to be focusing on here. There's the five children who ultimately went to live with the pencers, the eldest boy who stayed behind, so that makes six. And then two more babies that were born afterwards. So the first thing I'm thinking, what was the home life like for the first six children before the pensives got involved, and what's the evidence, if any, that they were being abused? Firstly, the pencers allege that Christina and Francisco would beat their children with rods. Now, Christina denies that this was abusive. She says that they would engage in what's described as biblical spanking, which involved spanking the children with a rod as a form of discipline. Christina told us that she believes this is mandated by the proverbs okay, well.

[Carl Miller]

Christina's referring to the authority of scripture, but what about the authority of the law?

[Caroline Thornham]

So, in Massachusetts, just like everywhere else in the US it's legal for parents to use corporal punishment. However, the force used has to be reasonable, and it has to be done in a way that doesn't cause physical harm, gross degradation, or severe mental distress. Christina says that this biblical spanking was done with a goal of correcting the child in love, not in anger. But that is a hard line to draw sometimes as a parent and proved challenging for my husband.

[Carl Miller]

Okay, well, whatever you think about corporal punishment, then the idea of hitting a child with a rod in anger, as Christina said, well, that's actually definitely troubling, isn't it? But what about other allegations, Caroline, or further abuse? Things like sexual abuse?

[Caroline Thornham]

Yes. Francisco says the Pencers accused him of engaging in sexually predatory behavior by watching the children in the shower. Christina, the birth mother, denies that there was anything untoward about that and says that Francisco supervised the children in the shower for safety, but not in any way inappropriately.

[Carl Miller]

What about the issues around Francisco and pornography? Chris Pence. He told the FBI, didn't he, that that was a factor in why the children needed to leave them in the first place?

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, and we learned quite a lot about this in the court documents. So, crucially, we got hold of the notes from an interview the FBI conducted with Francisco. So Francisco told the FBI that he had a pornography addiction and would watch it compulsively on his phone, at his home, or in his car. And sometimes he would masturbate in parking lots. He told the FBI that he once accidentally looked at child sexual abuse material, which he claims had been posted on an unrelated Facebook page group. And he sometimes intentionally watched porn, containing bestiality. All of this led to allegations by the Department of Children and Family Services in Massachusetts that Francisco had been exposing his children to porn. But Francisco maintained that he only watched it in places where the children couldn't see.

[Carl Miller]

So did the Department of Children and Family Services ever step in then, on the basis allegations, to actually do an investigation?

[Caroline Thornham]

Yes, they did. These investigations centered on Cristina and Francisco's eldest child. So that's the one who stayed behind when his siblings left with the Pences. He was taken into foster care for 18 months. And later, when Christina gave birth to her seventh child, the baby was immediately taken into care for a week. Now, ultimately, both children were returned, and Christina maintains that she and Francisco have never abused the children. She says that despite all these interventions and investigations, the allegations weren't proven and that she and Francisco ultimately were vindicated. We haven't been able to independently corroborate that. Christina says she has no documentation that she can share with us to show what the authorities concluded. And DCF wouldn't talk to us either, which, given how sensitive this all is, is hardly surprising.

[Carl Miller]

So there's a lot of allegations and also actually a lot of facts there that are really unsettling. And it's hard to believe that the authorities would do something so extreme as to take away a newborn baby unless there were really very serious concerns indeed. But at the same time, there's no definitive investigation, is there, or a judgment that we can point to that can actually help us say what did happen and what didn't and by whom and when?

[Caroline Thornham]

No. Exactly. But even if we don't have all the answers, this seems to be a family with a lot of issues that make you really worry about the welfare of the kids and what they've potentially been exposed to here.

[Carl Miller]

What about this idea that Christina and Francisco were also trying to get their kids back?

[Caroline Thornham]

So, according to Chris Pence, this is the key trigger for why he placed Christina and Francisco on the kill list. He says that beyond all the allegations of abuse, he feared that his adopted children would be returned to their birth parents and that the kill order was a misguided attempt to stop that from happening. For her part, Christina denies trying to get the children back or ever trying to move in with the Pences. She says that they never took any steps to try and retake custody of the kids, so there was no legal process underway. However, both Cristina and Francisco said things that might have given the Pences the impression that they were going to try. So during one of the annual visits, Francisco asked one of the children if they wanted to come back and live with him and Christina, Something Christina says was a mistake. And as the conversation around visitations became more and more fractious, Christina did offer to take the children back. She also told the penises that she and Francisco would have a case to do so via the courts, but that they wouldn't go down that route as long as the Pences communicated more openly and honestly with them.

[Carl Miller]

I can't help but wonder that neither side is telling the full truth here. I mean, they're each claiming the other side is wrong. They're both claiming to be acting in the children's best interests, but they're also both making decisions that seem really questionable.

[Caroline Thornham]

I think the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. I mean, like any conflict, both sides have a narrative and their own version of events. They've both got good reasons to spin the truth. Right? Chris Pence wants to mitigate his crime, and Christina and Francisco want to see their children again. They haven't seen them since May 2021, four months before Chris Pence was arrested. So, as journalists, we have to try and pick our way through these competing motives. And to me, it boils down to this. On the one hand, we can see that there really were concerns about the children's welfare, right? And those concerns were not just expressed by the Pences. On the other hand, I don't think the children were at imminent risk of being returned to their birth parents. Like, there was no legal process underway, and the children were thousands of miles away in a remote location which Christina and Francisco didn't even have the address for. So for me, the idea that Chris Pence did this because he was scared his children might get returned to their birth parents just doesn't make sense. Instead, I think the core trigger here is anger. We know that the adoption created a lot of stress in the Pence family home and that Chris and Michelle believed those problems were being exacerbated by their children's ongoing contact with the birth parents. And as this dispute ratcheted up, Christina says Chris Pence would often leave her emails unanswered. When she asked him why, he told her it was because they made him so angry that he needed to take time to calm down. And that anger, to me, far better explains Chris Pence's actions than any of the other things we've heard in this story. To me, it seems very rich for Chris Pence to, like, sit there and say that he was acting with the children's best interests at heart, when literally in the order messages, he acknowledges the possibility that, you know, Christina and Francisco could be killed in a situation which could cause their other children harm. Like, he's not even thinking about their welfare at all. So how can he possibly claim that he's some kind of great patriarchal protector here?

[Carl Miller]

I mean, and ultimately, this was something that Chris Pence was trying to do, to give satisfaction to Chris Pence, like, not to protect those kids.

[Caroline Thornham]

There is no possible world where the best option for these children is having their biological parents murdered. Like, to have not thought about the horrendous emotional psychological toll it would take on the kids, let alone, you know, the horrific act of against their parents. It just seems so shortsighted and blinkered and like somebody who was not thinking clearly. Chris Pence, to me, brewed A kind of anger inside him that evolved over time into a hatred. And that hatred ultimately gave way to this fantasy about having Christina and Francisco killed.

[Carl Miller]

So what happened to Chris Pence in the end, like, did his explanation, the one that we think anyway, was so problematic, I mean, did that actually help mitigate the sentence?

[Caroline Thornham]

In the end, it didn't make a big difference. He pled guilty, and in the end he was sentenced to seven years in prison. Now, that's substantially below the 10 year maximum, but still a hefty sentence.

[Carl Miller]

I think the most remarkable thing to me, Caroline, is that the kill list is almost like the neatest part of this whole story. I mean, Chris has admitted to it, he's been convicted for it. His family is standing by him after that conviction. And Christina has says that she's forgiven him for doing it. But has the actual source of the conflict changed?

[Caroline Thornham]

Well, the five children remain with the Pences, and Cristina and Francisco are pushing to have their visitations reinstated. In the meantime, they're still trying to involve themselves in the adopted children's lives, and the only way they have of contacting them right now is via an email. The children still live with Michelle Pence, so Christina sends out a regular newsletter to her children, and we've seen one of them. The email is full of pictures of the three remaining children. The eldest boy who stayed behind and who's now a teenager, as well as the two toddlers who were born after the other ones were given away. The words from the email are read by an.

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[Caroline Thornham]

The pictures paint this portrait of a kind of idyllic family life, right? The kids are being showered with love and cuddles. They're playing with baby chicks, dressing up in costumes.

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[Caroline Thornham]

And I can't help but think about what that must be like to receive for the adopted children. You know, there's a couple of ways of interpreting this email and you know, that are both valid. On the one hand, it shows a family who love their children and who I think are motivated by a sincere desire to have contact with the five children they gave away. And it's possible the children find that comforting. But on the other hand, I can also see how receiving an email like this could be upsetting one of the Photos shows that Christina is pregnant again, expecting her ninth child. And it must be difficult for the adopted children to see siblings they hardly know being showered with love after they themselves were given away. What's clear is that Christina is signalling very clearly to her adopted children that she wants to be deeply involved in their lives. And that also means being involved with the pencils.

[Carl Miller]

So what we have then is a situation that is completely irreconcilable. We have two sides who want utterly different things, but also two sides who are never really going to be able to escape each other. I mean, they were brought together almost by chance, but now they're never going to be able to fully separate for the rest of their lives. And it's that connection that the full implications of this story, and I think of the Kill List, will be fully felt. You're gonna have Cristina and Francisco, who, amazingly, will still have some sort of contact in the years ahead with the man who tried to have them killed. They might even meet him in the future face to face. But then also, and this is where the impact, I think, will last the longest, you have the children in the middle of all of this, children who are going to have to live their whole lives now with this knowledge that their adoptive father tried to have their biological parents murdered. And it seems clear to me that this story isn't over. It's not even close to being over. And it won't be until the questions at the heart of all of this have at least some sort of answer. Who is really acting in the best interests of the children? What do those children want? And how are they ever going to come to terms with the choices their parents have made? On the next episode of Kill List, a young woman in Bath, England, discovers that someone somewhere is watching her, and it's up to her to work out just who her stalker could be.

[Caroline Thornham]

He still continued to send texts and threats, saying things like, you shouldn't have gone to the police. We'll never leave you alone. I felt so unsafe and I knew someone close to me is trying to do something seriously wrong here.

[Carl Miller]

If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wandri app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and novel. This is Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carmilla. The reporter for this episode is Caroline Thornham, and it was produced and written by our series producer, Tom Wright. Kill List is also produced by Jake Otajevic with additional production by Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Amalia Saltland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and and Lena Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero. For Wondery. Our senior producer is Mandy Gorenstein. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for novel. Sarah Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plews is our senior managing producer for Wandery. Original music by Skyler Gerdemann and Martin Linnebel. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Gareth Young Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson for novel, Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty.