Cold Call | 2

Summary

Kill List: Episode 2 – "Cold Call"

Overview

In the second episode of Kill List titled "Cold Call," host Carl Miller delves deeper into the harrowing investigation of a darknet murder-for-hire website. Faced with a burgeoning list of potential victims, Carl and his team develop a strategic approach to identify and warn those endangered by covert kill orders. This episode chronicles the emotional and logistical challenges involved in reaching out to targets, culminating in a tense confrontation with one of the individuals on the list.

The Pipeline: A Strategic Approach

By July 2020, Carl Miller’s investigation, aided by hacker Chris Montero, had uncovered nearly 600 active users on the Hitman for Hire site, with new kill orders continuously emerging. Recognizing the overwhelming volume, Carl, Chris, and their team of journalists and producers devised a triage system dubbed the "Pipeline." This system prioritized threats based on the immediacy and severity of the danger to individuals.

Carl Miller [06:00]: "Step one we narrowed the cases down to the most dangerous threats. Not everyone who messages the assassination site ends up paying for a hit."

Identifying and Verifying Threats

The first step involved confirming the legitimacy of kill orders by analyzing blockchain data to trace Bitcoin transactions linked to specific targets. Chris Montero played a pivotal role by accessing the backend of the Hitman website, enabling the team to verify payments and identify genuine threats.

Carl Miller [06:51]: "Brenna Smith was our open source intelligence expert. Her job was to make absolutely sure we had the right person and to find a way to contact them."

Brenna Smith, an open-source intelligence expert from Bellingcat, meticulously scoured social media platforms to locate and verify the identities of potential targets. Her dedication underscored the meticulous nature of their investigation.

Crafting the Message: A Sensitive Approach

Acknowledging the gravity of informing individuals about impending threats, Carl collaborated with clinical psychologist Dr. Howard Fine to develop a compassionate communication strategy. The goal was to deliver the unsettling news without causing undue panic, allowing targets to maintain a sense of control over their next steps.

Dr. Howard Fine [07:39]: "The conversation was designed to gradually put them back in the driving seat."

The script emphasized providing information about the dark web presence and setting up a secure time and place for further discussion, ensuring that the revelation was both impactful and sensitive.

The Struggle of Cold Calling

Carl’s attempts to execute the cold calls were fraught with anxiety and frequent rejections. The initial attempts were met with skepticism and outright refusal, highlighting the immense difficulty in convincing individuals of the veracity of his claims.

Carl Miller [09:30]: "The cold call doesn't fucking work. People think it's scams."

Despite these setbacks, Carl persisted, driven by the urgent need to save lives. The breakthrough came when he managed to connect with Elena, a target on the kill list.

A Breakthrough with Elena

After numerous unsuccessful calls, Carl finally reached Elena, a woman in her 60s who was indifferent to the revelation that someone had paid to have her killed. This interaction provided crucial insights into the motivations behind the kill orders.

Elena [27:11]: "I'm having an ugly divorce. It's going on for about three years now. And my husband actually doesn't Want to pay it."

Elena revealed that her estranged husband was likely behind the kill order, motivated by financial disputes arising from their prolonged and contentious divorce. Her calm demeanor contrasted sharply with the severity of the situation, adding layers of complexity to the investigation.

Escalating Threats and New Orders

Just as the team began to gain traction, new kill orders started flooding in, intensifying the urgency of their mission. Nordwald, the alias of the individual placing orders, became increasingly impatient, pressuring the team to fulfill assassination requests swiftly.

Carl Miller [19:46]: "Until Nordwald is caught, Elena's life is in danger."

This escalation underscored the persistent and growing threat posed by the darknet platform, emphasizing that the team’s efforts were racing against time.

Expanding the Team: International Collaboration

Confronted with the global spread of kill orders and the limitations imposed by COVID-19 lockdowns, Carl expanded his team by enlisting freelance journalists from various countries. These journalists were tasked with approaching targets face-to-face, a risky but necessary step to ensure effective communication and safety.

Carl Miller [17:41]: "This is an interesting journalistic assignment."

The inclusion of international collaborators like Franziska in Switzerland, Esperanza in Spain, and Jonathan in Holland highlighted the expansive and collaborative nature of the investigation.

Climactic Confrontation and Emotional Toll

The episode reached its climax when Franziska Engelhardt, the Swiss journalist, successfully coordinated a live call with Elena. The conversation was heart-wrenching as Carl struggled to convey the dire situation without overwhelming her.

Carl Miller [24:32]: "I'm sorry to disturb you like this. My name's Carl and I'm a journalist."

Elena’s revelation about her husband's potential threat and her nonchalant reaction provided a stark example of the varied human responses to imminent danger. The emotional weight of this conversation left Carl feeling more burdened and uncertain about the effectiveness of their efforts.

Conclusion: The Unfolding Crisis

As the episode concludes, the team grapples with the realization that merely warning victims may not be sufficient to ensure their safety. With Nordwald’s threats intensifying and more kill orders being placed, the urgency to apprehend the mastermind behind the operation grows.

Carl Miller [30:35]: "How long will it be before he realizes that he's been scammed? And when he does, will he take matters into his own hands?"

Key Takeaways

• Strategic Triage: The "Pipeline" system effectively prioritized threats, enabling the team to focus on the most imminent dangers.
• Emotional and Ethical Challenges: Delivering life-threatening news imposed significant emotional strain on Carl and his team, highlighting the ethical complexities of such an investigation.
• Global Collaboration: Expanding the team internationally was crucial in addressing the widespread nature of the darknet kill orders.
• Escalating Threats: The increasing volume and pressure from Nordwald underscored the persistent and growing danger posed by the darknet platform.

Notable Quotes

• Carl Miller [06:00]: "I think it should just be threat to life. I don't think we should do it by investigatory potential."
• Brenna Smith [07:04]: "It's kind of a mind fuck looking for these people because I feel like I'm hunting them too when somebody else also wants them to be hunted."
• Carl Miller [09:30]: "People think it's scams."
• Elena [27:11]: "I'm having an ugly divorce. It's going on for about three years now."
• Carl Miller [30:35]: "How long will it be before he realizes that he's been scammed?"

Final Thoughts

Episode 2 of Kill List masterfully intertwines investigative journalism with real-life suspense, showcasing the relentless pursuit of truth in the face of digital menace. Carl Miller’s journey is a testament to the complexities and perils inherent in exposing covert criminal operations, setting the stage for further revelations in subsequent episodes.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandery plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free, join Wandri in the Wandary app, or on Apple podcasts. Oh, I just wanted a quiet life. I know, man. I hear you. I hear you. Okay, well, I've been dreading this moment. Right. Let's do it. All right. I hate cold calling people. I don't know why. Whether it's because I'm British or just awkward, or that I don't like talking to strangers, but I really can't stand it. And this is quite literally the most awkward conversation of my life. I need to tell the person on the other end of the phone that someone is trying to. To kill them something. Hello there. Can I speak to, please? Yes, me. Hold this. Hello? It's me. Who are you? My name is Carl Miller. I'm a journalist. I'm hoping you might be able to help me on a story that I'm working on. Okay. I'm starting with a man in Canada. I can't tell you his name, but someone on the Dark web has paid around $5,500 for his murder. I've already reported the details to the British police along with the other kill orders that we found. They told me they passed the information over to Interpol, the international policing organization. But it's now been six weeks since I've heard from them. Those six weeks of silence have been terrifying. If something were to happen to this man in Canada, I need to know that I've done everything I can to warn him. It's to do with scam sites on the Internet, although it's kind of reasonably sensitive in nature. So I wonder whether I could give you my email address and you can let me know when would be a good time for us to talk. So what is the subject? It's like the scam from the Internet. Yeah. Well, we've been doing an investigation into various scam sites on the Internet. We've come across some information which we believe might relate to you. So we just kind of want to take you through the information to me personally related to my professional. What? Related to you personally? Oh, okay. No, I'm not interested. Thank you. Yeah, not a great start. I was awful. And he's just the first of many more people on the kill list. I have to figure out a way to not only warn them, but to be believed, or more people could end up dead. Imagine a world where stories come alive, where every word paints a vivid picture in your mind. That's the power of audible dive into thrilling tales like the Book of Murder A Prosecutor's Journey Through Love and Death, by former senior deputy District attorney and current ABC News legal analyst Matt Murphy. Experience the gripping narrative of a seasoned prosecutor as he navigates the complexities of love and death in the criminal justice system. And whether you're commuting, working out, or simply relaxing at home, Audible transforms your everyday moments into extraordinary adventures. With thousands of audiobooks at your fingertips, there's always more to imagine when you listen. 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From Wandering A Novel I'm Carl Miller, and this is kill List Episode 2 Cold Call By July 2020, my source, the hacker Chris Montero, had identified nearly 600 active users on the Hitman for Hire site, and there were new kill orders coming in all the time. I needed to bring some kind of order to the list, or I knew it would overwhelm me. But looking around, there's no precedent for how you handle Darknet murder orders. So Chris and I and a team of journalists and producers invented our own workflow, a triage system. We called it the Pipeline. My suggestion for a way of prioritizing I think it should just be threat to life. I don't think we should do it by investigatory potential. Step one we narrowed the cases down to the most dangerous threats. Not everyone who messages the assassination site ends up paying for a hit. So we started with the people who were actually putting up money to kill a specific target. By parsing blockchain data, I have found the actual wallets in question, which I would then use back to trace to the original transactions. Chris could access the back end of the Hitman website. That meant he could see not only the orders, but also the payments. They were nearly always in Bitcoin. Chris would look for a transaction of exactly the same amount at the same time on the public ledger of all bitcoin transactions, known as a blockchain. If it all tallied, we had a confirmed payment, a crime, and a serious threat to life. Step two was to track down the victim. What's our level of, like, confidence? It sounds like we're on the cusp of thinking that this is definitely, definitely her, but there's a few kind of flags in the way.

[Brenna Smith]

I mean, I put it at like 80%.

[Carl Miller]

Brenna Smith was our open source intelligence expert. Her job was to make absolutely sure we had the right person and to find a way to contact them.

[Brenna Smith]

When I looked on Facebook, I was able to find a woman who had similar eyes, but she had a Snapchat filter over it, but it was similar eyes of like, almond shaped, big and brown. And so from there I just kind of obsessively stalked her Facebook and tried to find other instances of her online based on the information I had.

[Carl Miller]

Brenna is one of a team of volunteers who joined us from the open source intelligence outfit Bellingcat. They're magicians at scouring the Internet for information and pulling together often scattered details.

[Brenna Smith]

It's kind of a mind fuck looking for these people because I feel like I'm hunting them too when somebody else also wants them to be hunted.

[Carl Miller]

Step three was to figure out the least damaging way of breaking the news. The man who could help us was clinical psychologist Dr. Howard Fine. When you first drop the information, it's like pulling the carpet from under their feet and then feeling quite lost and disabled. Learning that someone wants you dead is a horrific thing to hear. So I need to do it as sensitively and as gently as I possibly can. The first few sentences shouldn't say that you're on the kill list, but it could be something about the Dark Web. And you know, we're aware that there's some information about you on the Dark Web. Howard helped me write a script. The plan was to keep it vague and set up a time and a place to call back. Somewhere the target felt safe and preferably somewhere they could be alone. That would be when I gave them the details the whole way through. You want to give them a sense of control and for them to set the limits with you. The conversation was designed to gradually put them back in the driving seat. Towards the end, I'd be asking them what they wanted us to do to help them to get to a place of safety, perhaps. And if they wanted to involve law enforcement, what we want to do as much as possible is to manage the immediate sense of risk and then to move on from that and to enable them. We're now giving you control by helping you make decisions. That was the pipeline. Identify the biggest threats, find the targets, prepare the script. All leading up to step four, the cold call. Right. Be brave, Carl. Plus one, six, three. Hello? Am I talking to Kurt? Rick? Hello? Am I talking to. How is that. She's just hung up on me. Call after call. I can't even get through to the person I'm trying to reach. Hi there. I'm looking to speak to an either. I will phone back. You've dialed an incorrect number. Please check the number and try again. That was literally the same number as I just dialed. That's Taiwan dial code. Okay, so plus 886. I mean, I. I literally don't know what I'm in queue for. What is like, am I. Am I going to leave a message? Like, am I. Hello? Hi there. My name is Carmilla. I'm a journalist. My number is. Thanks very much. And the chances of that ever being responded to are absolutely nil. Then there are the calls when someone does pick up. No, I don't want any information. I'm trying to give you information. I don't care. I'm sorry. Okay, well, thanks for your time anyway. Do give me a phone back if you'd like more information. Would we be able to arrange a time to be able to talk to you at greater length about that? Okay, so you. Don't you. After a few more calls like this, my producer starts to get restless. I do think he could have told him he was in more danger than somebody was threatening to harm you. I'm doing my best. If you want to do the next one, I understand. You'd be my guest. I just think you need to put a little more urgency onto them. He suggests we try the first person again, the man in Canada. At least he didn't hang up right away. I don't know. Such a difficult one. I don't. I kind of like. He definitely didn't want to speak to us. Yeah, but I think we should let him know that he's in danger. All right, I'll phone him up one more time and see if he picks up. Hello? Hello there. Can I speak to Mr. This time I'm gonna forget the carefully planned script and get straight to the point. Just. I understand you don't want to work with me on the story. However, I'm actually duty bound to say that the information that we have might relate to you being in danger. So I'm kind of duty bound as a journalist to disclose it to you if you'd like me to. Actually, I don't have time for this. Even. Even if you're asking me for a survey that has something to my relationship to the job or to professional. It's not a survey. I'm a journalist. We've come across information which indicates that you might be in danger. I'm in danger? Yes. Thank you for trying to protect me. Keep me to face my dangers. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Bye. Goodbye. Wow. Leave me to face my dangers. He's not having any of it. I'm very surprised by that. I mean, if someone phoned me up saying you might be in danger, I would want to know what it was regarding. Yeah, even a direct approach isn't enough to convince people. And worse than that, I am rubbish at this. See, this is the cold. The cold call doesn't fucking work. People think it's scams. I've been so worried that delivering this news might cause people to completely freak out or have a panic attack. But instead they all just assumed I was some sort of weird scam artist. Like there's people who call you up asking for your bank details. What I'm saying is just so outlandish that people assume I must have some kind of ulterior motive. The only thing that makes me feel a little better is that these cases are already with the police. I've done that part. I just don't know if it's enough. Maybe I'm not helping anyone. Maybe I should just leave it to the police. But then Chris sends over more orders. This woman has caused a lot of problems for myself and others. Please, could you help me resolve this? For the best cost. Murder needed. Please let me know if you can help with my budget. I would like to know if it's possible to kill him at the cost. Basically, there will be no link to me death as accident. My producers and I spend hours debating what the right thing to do is. The question is, how do we step in their lives? To be honest, I have absolutely no idea right now. Well, there's no good way to do this. It's sort of like getting into the ocean when it's cold. You just have to go right in. We realize there is one thing we haven't tried yet. Something even more direct. Something that can't be ignored. If they won't pick up the phone, if they won't listen to a cold call, there's only one Thing for it, we need to track the targets down and speak to them face to face. We get support from Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. It's a spot for incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list. Uncommon Goods has products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US meaning you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. So for me, I bought a gift for a friend who loves fruit, and the gift are these small woolen things that you put on the top of bananas to apparently keep them fresh for longer. Sounds a bit odd. I mean, definitely uncommon. But I genuinely think he'll love them. And with every purchase you make an Uncommon Goods, they'll give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com list. That's UncommonGoods.com list for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods. We're all out of the ordinary. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Hire high quality Certified [e-mail] the first problem with talking in person to the targets is a big one. It's 2020 and the world is deep into COVID lockdown. The murder orders are spread all over the world, and leaving the country myself is completely out of the question. That's where Alex comes in. Holy shit. What the fuck have I gotten myself into? I'm juggling calls in different time zones to reach out to freelance journalists near the people being targeted. Besides Alex, there's Jonathan in Holland. Quite an interesting journalistic assignment. There's Esperanza in Spain.

[Brenna Smith]

What has she done to provoke that someone wants to kill her.

[Carl Miller]

And Franziska in Switzerland.

[Brenna Smith]

You have no idea. What's the story behind this woman.

[Carl Miller]

The only question is if you guys have a standard approach to this. That is a good question. So let's go through that process. Could you share? I lay out the plan for them. It will be their job to approach the target and see if they're willing to speak to me on a call, having been over it so many times now, I know the words by heart. We kind of don't want it to be so jarring that we say just cold straight off, hi, you're gonna kill this, and wants to kill you. But on the other hand, we also do need to try and convey, you know, a genuine fear for her safety and that we would like to speak to her in a fairly urgent way. That's the kind of balancing act, I suppose, that we have to try and navigate. Then I'll tell the victim about the order. Following the psychologist approved script. We'll give them as much information as we can about our investigation and what it means for them. We need to convey the gravitas at the same time as not doing it in a way which is traumatizing. Man, God, what a world we live in. Then we'll let the targets decide what happens next. We can help them contact local law enforcement or do it ourselves immediately, if they prefer. We also have Howard on standby for counselling if they need it. Looking ahead, the plan is to keep talking with them. We'll give them updates if any new messages appear. And we'll continue to engage with the police and help the investigation in any way we can. It's a vague plan, but it's the best we can come up with in such a short space of time. I have no idea what the freelancers we've hired are going to say. We're asking them to physically step into situations that are at best unknown, at worst, extremely dangerous. We don't know why these people ended up on this list. There's even a chance that the targets themselves could be dangerous.

[Brenna Smith]

Like, why would somebody spend so much money on someone's life? Why would somebody be a target of that caliber?

[Carl Miller]

I know. It's a frightening proposition and one our freelancers have every right to say no to. And yet I think I definitely need to go out there and check it out. If we're gonna help somebody, then it's more than okay. Glad y'all reached out and glad to be a part of it. All right, the new plan is in place, and it's time to test it out. In Switzerland.

[Brenna Smith]

It'S a cold, foggy autumn day, and it's. It's in a neighborhood that does not smell of a lot of money at all.

[Carl Miller]

So, yeah, it's late November 2020. Three weeks since we first saw this particular kid order. Franziska Engelhardt is parked by the side of the road in a Suburb near the airport.

[Brenna Smith]

First, when you told me about the case, I thought, oh, this is definitely going to be in an area where the rich people live. But no, this is absolutely not. So I'm curious of whom I can expect.

[Carl Miller]

I mean, I thought when we thought initially we were getting into this, maybe they were all going to be gangland or organized crime, but it's not. The target is a woman we're going to be calling Elena. And the customer placing the hit goes by the alias Nordwald. Name Elena. Address Switzerland. Car. See pics on Facebook. Bitcoin will follow. We've traced the payment for her murder and know it's around $7,000. It doesn't take long for Jura, the website admin, to respond. Can you please tell us what kind of accident do you think would be more okay? Car accident or maybe robbery gone wrong? Is she suffering of any medical conditions that could help us do the job easier? Maybe heart problems or something. And we can use some untraceable drugs.

[Brenna Smith]

To make it look like natural death.

[Carl Miller]

Hi. A car accident or a robbery go wrong is okay. Can you do the job in the next two weeks? The job will be done in about a week. I will send you updates soon using the order. We know a lot about Elena. We know her age, we know what car she drives. We've seen her holiday photos. She looks at least like a completely ordinary woman. But soon, all being well, we will be face to face with her with a message that in all probability is going to completely change her life. It might even save her life, but only if she believes me. All right, have you got any final thoughts? How are you feeling?

[Brenna Smith]

I'm pretty tense. Like I. I don't know what to expect. Just throw myself into this now and try to be very friendly, like I am very friendly. But I hope she's friendly too. Like, of course these are also concerns. But I'm going there and I'll let you know whether she answered or not.

[Carl Miller]

Well, we'll put all of our numbers in signal. You can try any of them. We're all here.

[Brenna Smith]

Okay, give me me at least 10 minutes.

[Carl Miller]

All right, Good luck.

[Brenna Smith]

Okay.

[Carl Miller]

I stay on the zoom call with my producers waiting. 10 minutes pass, no news. 20 minutes. Still nothing. I go to grab some water. Then a message from Franziska. So our Swiss reporter, after a nail biting, extremely nervous, 20 minute silence, has just texted us to say that she's inside. She's just preparing the audio gear. And we are about to, for the first time, come face to face with one of the targets on the list. This is it. The moment I've been building towards for months now. I scramble to dig out the script I've prepared. Franziska texts that she and Elena are going to join the call. I sit down and there is Elena appearing on my screen. How are you doing?

[Brenna Smith]

Oh, is it. Are you talking? Are you talking to me?

[Carl Miller]

I am. Can you hear me? I recognize her instantly from the photo in the order. It's an uncanny sense of deja vu, actually. Like when you see someone famous unexpectedly and for a moment you think you know them. Elena peers at me through the screen. She's in her 60s, with brown hair and a pair of rimless glasses, sitting on a sofa in her home.

[Brenna Smith]

Yeah, okay.

[Carl Miller]

I'm sorry to disturb you like this. My name's Carl and I'm a journalist. We're all working. This is the moment that everything has been leading up to. And now that it's here, my hands are shaking. How on earth do I tell this woman, someone wants you dead? Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Uncertainty, self doubt, stressing about not knowing where to start. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Wordart. Sorry. Live, laugh lovers in knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download thumbtack. Today I fumble through my script as I try and calmly explain to Elena just what on earth the kill list is. The important thing to say is that they are apparently murder for hire sites, but they're in fact actually scams. I stop for a moment and I wait for Elena's response. She just looks at me. So they never send any hit people out to actually commit any violence. But on the other hand, there are people that don't know that. That use the sites to apparently take out orders.

[Brenna Smith]

Really?

[Carl Miller]

Yes. It all sounds extremely odd, doesn't it?

[Brenna Smith]

Yeah, it does. Yeah.

[Carl Miller]

Elena doesn't seem to understand the gravity of the situation, so I plow on. Sorry, there's no easy way of really saying this. We've come across some information which might mean that someone had put some information regarding you on the site. Elena's face is impassive. I wonder if she's going into shock.

[Brenna Smith]

Yeah, I'm actually not really surprised.

[Carl Miller]

This is not the reaction I'd expected. Really? In what way?

[Brenna Smith]

I'm having an ugly divorce. It's going on for about three years now. And you know, there's money involved, quite a lot of money. And my husband actually doesn't Want to pay it. So I'm not really surprised.

[Carl Miller]

So we have our first suspect, Elena's husband. I start to sketch out more details for Elena. I tell her about the site and that the price paid for her killing has now reached $7,000.

[Brenna Smith]

I mean, 7,000 is nothing. Nobody's gonna kill someone for 7,000.

[Carl Miller]

No, I mean, that's right. But what this person has done, it's a crime. Of course. So what we can do is work with you. If you'd like to disclose this to the police. We wanted to talk to you first so that you can tell us how you want us to handle all this. Are you, like, 100% positive that you think you know who it is?

[Brenna Smith]

Yeah, I can't be anybody else. I mean, I haven't got any enemies, not that I know of. So far, he's. He's quite computer savvy. So I want to put it past him that he knows how things like that work.

[Carl Miller]

Can I just ask how you're feeling throughout all of this? I mean, this is clearly information that doesn't come as news to you.

[Brenna Smith]

No, I don't think he would go that far. But in the beginning, three years ago, he had me followed and all things like that. So in the end, actually, I thought, he's got weapons at home. And I thought, if he's going to do something, he'll do it himself.

[Carl Miller]

What Elena is saying is so monstrous, but she says it so casually. Is he nearby where you and Francesca are now?

[Brenna Smith]

He lives in the next town.

[Carl Miller]

Okay.

[Brenna Smith]

It's about 6, 7 kilometers.

[Carl Miller]

If he wanted to, Elena's estranged husband could be at her door within minutes. Do you feel in danger?

[Brenna Smith]

No, I actually don't feel in danger. You know, I'm not, you know, the kind of. Kind of type. Not really.

[Carl Miller]

Okay. And.

[Brenna Smith]

But if you're gonna forward that stuff to the police, I wouldn't mind, actually.

[Carl Miller]

Okay. So we certainly can. We can just. We'll disclose that all today. Throughout our conversation, Elena remains superhumanly unflappable. She isn't even going to change her plans for the evening.

[Brenna Smith]

I'm going to meet a friend later on, and she will be very interested in hearing that because she lives next to him.

[Carl Miller]

She lives next to him?

[Brenna Smith]

Yeah. Three houses down. Yeah.

[Carl Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Brenna Smith]

So, yeah, gonna be an interesting evening.

[Carl Miller]

We make a plan to pass the order to the local police force right away. Perhaps we can talk whenever convenient over the next week or so. Just to check back in for 15 or 20 minutes.

[Brenna Smith]

Yes. Yeah, sure.

[Carl Miller]

Thank you so much.

[Brenna Smith]

Bye. See You.

[Carl Miller]

After Elena hangs up, I sit and stare at where her face had just been on my screen. Wow. Well, that was honestly one of the most nerve wracking conversations I think I've ever had. Telling someone that someone's trying to kill them is absolutely awful. I was like, stammering and oh God, this is just not a normal job. People do not have to do this kind of thing. For weeks, I've been trying to reach the targets on the kill list, trying to get them to believe me when I say they're in danger. For the first time, I've managed to do it. I'm pretty sure Elena doesn't think I'm a scammer. But on the other hand, she seems incredibly relaxed about the whole situation, despite the fact she knows exactly who could want her dead. So we have a prime suspect. Her estranged husband. There's a clear motive he needs Elaine Edett in order to avoid having to pay out on their divorce. I feel worse now than I did before the call. How long will it be before he realizes that he's been scammed? And when he does, will he take matters into his own hands? And it gets worse. After I finished talking with Elena, I check in with Chris to see if Nord One has sent any new messages. He has. 23rd of November. Okay, last chance. I need about three days to organize the bitcoin. Please confirm that you can do the job in five days after I sent the Bitcoin. 25th of November. Hi, I sent you the bitcoin. Please confirm that you start the job first of December. Hi, I sent you the bitcoin. Please confirm and confirm that you do the job in the next five days. As each day passes, we watch as Nordwan gets more and more frustrated. Just warning the victims doesn't make them safe. Until Nordwand is caught, Elena's life is in danger. If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry in the Wandri app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and Novel. This is episode two of Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carl Miller. It was written by me, Caroline Thornham and Tom Wright. Our lead producer is Caroline Thornham. Our producer is Tom Wright for Wandery. Our story editor is Chris Siegel and our senior producer is Russell F. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sortland. And our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lena Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero and from Anique Mossou, Fouca Postma and Brenna Smith at Bellingcat. Additional reporting by Franziska Engelhardt from podcast Schmieder, Esperanza Escribano, Jonathan Grubert and Alexander Ritchie. A consulting psychologist is Dr. Howard Fine. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolf for novel and Lata Pundia for Wandery. Original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander Additional engineering by Daniel Kemperson for novel. Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Austin Mitchell, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are George Lavender, Marshall Louis and Jen Sargent. When you're done with the first six episodes, I go deeper into the kill list, revealing never before told stories of more victims. New episodes roll out weekly. Thank you for listening.