Knoxville | 10

Summary

Kill List Podcast Summary: The Complex Case of Ann Replogle

Introduction

In this gripping episode of Kill List, hosted by Carl Miller from Wondery and Novel, listeners are taken deep into the shadowy world of the dark web's murder-for-hire sites. This episode, released on November 19, 2024, centers around a chilling case where a seemingly ordinary life is threatened by a meticulously planned assassination.

The Kill List and Ann's Case

The episode opens with the unsettling discovery made by Carl and his team: a secret "kill list" on a dark web platform, targeting hundreds of innocent individuals. Among these targets is Ann Replogle, a 56-year-old retired teacher from Knoxville, Tennessee. On the morning of April 20, 2021, Ann plans a routine 10-minute drive to her local animal hospital, oblivious to the deadly intent behind her daily trip.

Carl introduces the case vividly:

"In a few hours time, 56-year old retired teacher Ann Replogle is going to step out of her large house and she'll set off on the 10-minute drive to her local animal hospital. It's not the kind of trip she would ever expect to be fraught with danger, but someone wants Ann to die on that drive and they want it to look like a random act of violence."
— Carl Miller, [00:00]

Investigation and Urgent Action

Upon identifying the threat against Ann, Carl and his team spring into action. They contact the FBI to relay their findings, racing against the clock to prevent the planned murder. The tension escalates as they navigate the complexities of alerting law enforcement without tipping off the perpetrator, known by the alias Boniface.

A pivotal moment occurs when the FBI confirms intervention:

"We've made contact with the would-be victims. They are safe, there is a deputy with them and we have agents on the way to interview them."
— FBI Operator, [08:06]

The Revelation: Nelson Replogle as the Perpetrator

As the investigation unfolds, startling evidence emerges pointing to Nelson Replogle, Ann's husband, as the orchestrator behind the kill order. Despite being a respected former teacher with no apparent motives, Nelson becomes the prime suspect. The episode delves into the perplexing question: Why would Nelson, a man seemingly devoid of enemies, attempt to have his wife killed?

Carl reflects on the paradox:

"It's hard to read the messages of somebody plotting someone else's death sometimes graphically, incredibly specifically, and remain neutral."
— Carl Miller, [34:18]

Background and Motives

Through meticulous research, the podcast explores Nelson and Ann's long-standing relationship, highlighting Nelson's dedication as a teacher and his involvement in community activities. However, cracks begin to appear in his façade, especially following the COVID-19 pandemic.

Caroline Thornham uncovers critical information:

"We give the FBI agent all of the information we have, including one crucial clue that could help unmask Boniface. We've got a transaction, a bitcoin amount and a wallet."
— Carl Miller, [09:06]

Mental Health and COVID Impact

A turning point in understanding Nelson's actions comes with the revelation of his mental health struggles. The podcast discusses how Nelson's battle with depression and anxiety was exacerbated by a severe COVID-19 infection in 2020. This illness seemingly altered his personality, leading to erratic behaviors such as acquiring firearms and engaging in secretive activities, including affairs.

Dr. Julie Gallagher, a forensic psychologist, provides expert insight:

"An onset of mania is typically well in the 20s. So it's interesting. It may not exactly map onto our known mental illnesses. Right. We may find out there's some type of mood disorder that's triggered by Covid, but we don't know yet."
— Dr. Julie Gallagher, [29:26]

Legal Proceedings

Nelson's arrest leads to a complex legal battle. His defense argues that his COVID-induced mental health crisis should mitigate his culpability, suggesting he should be released with time served. Conversely, the prosecution presents a timeline indicating pre-existing behavioral issues and financial motives, such as a $100,000 life insurance policy on Ann.

Ultimately, the judge sentences Nelson to seven years in prison, acknowledging some mitigation but holding him accountable for his actions:

"Nelson gets charged with one count of murder for hire. And because of his bipolar diagnosis, Nelson's family argue he should get released with time served... the prosecution wants Nelson to go to jail for seven to nine years."
— Caroline Thornham, [24:44]

Reflections and Conclusions

The episode concludes with profound reflections on the moral ambiguities of the case. Carl and Caroline grapple with the difficulty of categorizing Nelson solely as a villain, considering his prior reputation and the potential impact of his mental health struggles. They emphasize the human element, focusing on Ann's resilience and the complexities of her continued relationship with Nelson despite his betrayal.

Carl muses on the ethical dilemmas:

"It's extremely complicated feeling because we like to feel when we step into these cases, like we are actually incontrovertibly and without doubt helping the person who's being targeted. It feels much weirder, and it's much harder when we don't really know what Ann wants and we don't know whether she would have wanted us to intervene in the way that we did."
— Carl Miller, [35:00]

Conclusion

This episode of Kill List masterfully weaves a narrative that challenges listeners to reconsider notions of good and evil, responsibility, and the profound effects of mental health crises. By placing the victim at the center and exploring the perpetrator's complexities, the podcast offers a nuanced perspective on a harrowing true story of obsession, control, and the fragile line between guilt and victimhood.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandery subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandri in the Wandary app or on Apple Podcasts. It's early in the morning on the 20th of April 2021. We're in a quiet cul de sac in a northern suburb of Knoxville, Tennessee. In a few hours time, 56 year old retired teacher Ann Repligal is going to step out of her large house and she'll set off on the 10 minute drive to her local animal hospital. It's not the kind of trip she would ever expect to be fraught with danger, but someone wants Anne to die on that drive and they want it to look like a random act of violence.

[Ann Replogle]

Order Name Ann Replaggle would like it.

[Caroline Thornham]

To be a road rage or carjacking gone wrong.

[Nelson Replogle]

Don't take the target out at home.

[Caroline Thornham]

We'll be on road from address to Tazewell Pike Animal Clinic between 8:15 and 9:00am Vehicle is maroon Honda CRV.

[Carl Miller]

These are the dark fantasies of the person who wants Anne dead. A person who goes by the alias Boniface. Whoever Boniface is, they know Anne well enough to track her whereabouts and her schedule down to the very minute. The kind of person close enough in fact, to know exactly when she might be vulnerable. My name is Carl Miller. Since 2020 I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered. We brought broke into a murder for hire website on the dark web. The site is a scam, but the users don't know that. We could see every order being placed, real money being paid to have real people murdered. The tally of these targets now stands in the hundreds. We call it the kill list. If your name is on this list, it means someone wants you dead and is determined to make the murder happen. So far we've managed to help law enforcement arrest or Convict More than 30 people all around the world. This series is about the lives impacted by the kill list and in this episode we dive into a case where the line between guilt and victimhood is blurred and we start to question just how responsible the perpetrator really is.

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[Ann Replogle]

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[Carl Miller]

From Wandery and Novel I'm Car Miller, and this is Kill List. Every case we work on is different. Each one brings its own challenges and its own fears. This case starts as a race against time. The morning that we take on this kill order is the same day that Boniface has requested Ann be killed. In four hours, Anne is going to wake up, get in her car, and set off on a drive where someone wants her debt. I'd like to speak to Anne myself to warn her of the danger she's in. But if I call Anne, there's a big chance she won't believe me. And worse, I'm worried about tipping off Boniface. If Boniface knows Ann's movement, and they do, then there's every chance they could be someone somewhere very close to her. They could even be inside the house with her. And this is my biggest fear. Because if Boniface learns that we're onto them, they might panic. They might realize they've been duped or that they're about to get caught. And that can have deadly consequences. We've seen it before. When a user realizes the murder isn't going to happen as planned, they can take matters into their own hands. My team and I contact the FBI in every way we can think of, but for them, it's the early hours of the morning. There's no guarantee that anyone will see our messages in time. So with just two hours before Ann leaves the house, my producer Caroline phones the FBI tips line in Knoxville to make sure someone gets the message before it's too late.

[Nelson Replogle]

Thank you for calling the FBI. Can I have your first and last name, please?

[Carl Miller]

The operator asks loads of questions about the order, our investigation, and most of all the targets.

[Nelson Replogle]

Okay, okay. And the threats were made to who?

[Caroline Thornham]

It's the murder of a woman named Ann Replogal and I have an address for her. It's quite an urgent case because they would like it to happen today.

[Carl Miller]

Once the information is with the FBI, all we can do is wait and hope that they get to Anne in time. It's incredibly nerve wracking and that weight of responsibility, it really gnaws at you knowing that the life of this woman you've never met is resting in this really weird way in your hands. And she has no idea. The minutes crawl by until finally we receive an update from an FBI agent in Knoxville.

[FBI Operator]

We've made contact with would be victims. They are safe, there is a deputy with them and we have agents on the way to interview them.

[Carl Miller]

Now those are the most magical words that I think you can ever hear in those circumstances. But now there's even more questions because we need to help the agents figure out who is behind the order. To be honest, this one screams someone in the house. To be honest, I think someone very close to me. Yeah, someone very close to. That's why we were also just really afraid of actually approaching the victim ourselves because we just didn't know how to do that in a way that we would have a high confidence that there wasn't going to be. The perpetrator stood right next to them.

[FBI Operator]

Yeah, it's entirely possible. That's exactly what I thought first as well, some sort of domestic issue.

[Carl Miller]

We give the FBI agent all of the information we have, including one crucial clue that could help unmask Boniface. We've got a transaction, a bitcoin amount and a wallet.

[FBI Operator]

Okay, can you email that to me? Is that possible or can you put.

[Carl Miller]

It in the chat?

[FBI Operator]

I don't care how you do it.

[Caroline Thornham]

I can email that straight after this.

[FBI Operator]

Okay, perfect. Thank you so much. I'll tell you what I'm gonna do is first off I'm gonna see if we can track down the bitcoin and then get somebody in handcuffs and hopefully I'll be talking to you guys very soon.

[Carl Miller]

What started as a very stressful morning in London has now within hours resulted in police officers knocking on Anne's front door. In Knoxville, there are some local cops, but also a couple of agents from the FBI who are interviewing Ann. They explain the kill order to her and she Seems completely shocked. She has no idea who could possibly want her debt. But in another room, agents are talking to Ann's husband, Nelson. They've intentionally separated him and Ann to make sure neither of them are under duress. Nelson seems similarly taken aback by the news of the hit. But he also says something I think is pretty weird. He says he can't think why anyone would want Anne dead because, and I quote, all she does is sit around and knit all day. Now, we can't put ourselves in Nelson's shoes on what must be just the weirdest day of his life. But still, it's an odd thing to say. On the other hand, what Nelson's saying kind of makes sense. On the face of it, Anne doesn't seem like the kind of woman who would make enemies. She's a retired teacher, not a gang leader. At the moment, that's what the FBI are trying to figure out using the information we gave them. What we'd handed over was the bitcoin wallet. It's basically a unique code of numbers and letters identifying the wallet used to make the payment for the kill order. And that turns up three key pieces of evidence. One is a photo ID that was used to register with the crypto exchange. The second is the IP address that was used to log in. And the third is a bank account actually used to pay for the Bitcoin. These three pieces of evidence together all point to the same individual, Someone Anne thought she could trust with her life.

[Nelson Replogle]

We've uncovered documents that show a former Thorn Apple Kellogg teacher accused of hiring someone to try and kill his wife.

[Carl Miller]

At the center is this man, Nelson.

[Caroline Thornham]

Replogle, a former West Michigan schoolteacher who's.

[Carl Miller]

Now accused of trying to pay someone.

[Caroline Thornham]

Bitcoin to kill his wife.

[Carl Miller]

And so, within 24 hours of us first seeing the kill order, Anne's husband is placed in handcuffs and led away. Given how much evidence there is against Nelson from this point on, the case very quickly stops being a whodunit and becomes much more of a why done it? Why would Nelson try and kill his wife? We get support from Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday. With just the right gift from Uncommon Goods, it's a spot for incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list. Uncommon Goods has products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US Meaning you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. So, for me, I bought a gift for a friend who loves fruit, and the gift are these small woolen things that you put on the top of bananas to apparently Keep them fresh for longer. Sounds a bit odd. I mean, definitely uncommon, but I genuinely think he'll love them. And with every purchase you make an Uncommon goods, they'll give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com list. That's UncommonGoods.com list for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer on common goods. We're all out of the ordinary.

[Ann Replogle]

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[Carl Miller]

From the very start, a core principle of how we decided to investigate the kill list has been to put the victim at the center of what we do. We always want the victim to shape our investigation, and we want to offer to help them in whatever way best suits them. So I'm hoping that now that we know Anne is safe, we might be able to make contact with her directly. We ask the FBI agent to put in a good word with Ann, and 10 days later, they reach out with Anne's response.

[FBI Operator]

The victim here in Knoxville, you guys had mentioned wanting to talk with her, and if we could make that at least known to her that who you were and what your involvement was. So a couple strange things have happened, though, with her. I don't know what team she's on anymore, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure where her allegiances lie at this point.

[Carl Miller]

There's lots of reasons why somebody might not want to talk to us, very understandable ones. But the piece of information that we got from the FBI, which was really surprising, is that Anne had decided to stand by Nelson and support him in spite of the fact that he had tried to have her killed. So why would she do that? It's an incredibly thorny question.

[Caroline Thornham]

To untangle the truth here is actually way stranger than you could possibly imagine.

[Carl Miller]

My producer, Caroline Thornham, has been investigating.

[Caroline Thornham]

It seems like the reason Nelson tried to kill his wife might have actually had something to do with a deadly virus, which seems to have totally changed him from the man he was before all this happened. So although Anne wouldn't talk to us, Nelson's lawyer did send us something. It's this really fascinating document that's put together by his lawyer and his family in his defense. And it contains letters from his family and all these different people who knew Nelson and the man he was before he got arrested. And what I've learned from it is that if you really want to understand what happened to Nelson, you've got to go back to the very first time Anne laid eyes on him. It's 1987, and Anne is an elementary school teacher, 23 years old. She's living in the small town of Hastings, Michigan, home to about 7,000 people and surrounded by grassland, lakes, and rivers. One day, Ann's friend invites her over to their house, and this is where she runs into Nelson for the first time. They hit it off immediately. Just over a year later, they're married. Nelson follows Ann into teaching, and soon they adopt two children, Nicholas and Alexis. Alexis describes Nelson as a really kind, thoughtful, and reliable father. He's always there when she needs something, and he's very, very practical. Alexis was also a student at Nelson's school, and she says her fondest memory of him was how he'd give up his lunch breaks to help struggling students catch up, not just on his class, but on all of their lessons. He was also a dedicated sports coach, coaching the school baseball and football teams. It seems like his students really valued him. They even wrote him letters, which he kept.

[Nelson Replogle]

Dear Mr. Replogle, I believe that when we corresponded briefly in my college years, you told me to call you Nelson. That memory didn't come to me until after the salutation of this card.

[Caroline Thornham]

That's one of Nelson's former students, Dave Stewart.

[Nelson Replogle]

I've been prompted at a conference to write to my favorite teacher. I find it a bad task. Favorite teacher is not a title I strive for anymore in my practice, and I never got the impression it's what you were after either. You just wanted to be as good as you could be. I'm teaching AP World History now, and when I look at how I do it, I see your influence. High expectations, no nonsense. Expecting excellence and effort in my students. So thank you, Nelson, for being a great teacher to me in Cedar Springs, Michigan. My classroom is a part of your legacy.

[Caroline Thornham]

It's clear that for some people, Nelson had a truly positive impact on their lives. But it's also fair to say that he could be a bit prickly. A pastor at his old school described Nelson as someone who was not, quote, overly loving or someone with a bubbly personality. And his brother refers to him as having ups and downs in his life. You get the feeling that Nelson was a part of the furniture, hardworking, respected, but also not super friendly. And having lived in Michigan for so long, he must have been very settled. But in 2018, Anne and Nelson decided to move to Knoxville, Tennessee. At this point, they'd retired from teaching and their kids had grown up. So life was maybe getting a little slower for Nelson. He needed to find friends in a new community and ways to keep himself busy. So as a history buff, Nelson got into the local Civil War reenactment scene. On the face of things, he was settling into his new life in Knoxville. That is, until he was arrested. It didn't take long for word to spread back home to Michigan. Dave Stewart, Nelson's former student, remembers when the news got around.

[Nelson Replogle]

My mom was the one who sent me an article that was describing his arrest. I just remember that being deeply disorienting. Like, I just didn't really understand at all. How could this have happened? You know, how did he go from this person that I knew to this person that is allegedly committing this crime? So truly, every conversation that I had about this, you know, with family, with old classmates, like, this came up at our 20 year reunion. And it was just kind of like, oh, my goodness, did you see this about Mr. Replicable? And, you know, all of us kind of wondering, there's got to be more to the story. I can tell even right now, talking about, I'm still super confused because I think that he's way more than just this being what he's known for. Like, I. I just want this to not be the final sentence in his story.

[Carl Miller]

Okay, so there's this picture being painted of Nelson then as a man who's sober and serious and well meaning and inspires a kind of fierce loyalty from lots of these people who say that he's had such a beneficial footprint on their lives. You know, how does that square with the actions that we now know that Nelson took?

[Caroline Thornham]

So there's something important about Nelson that you need to know. It's something he probably didn't share with a lot of other people. But it turns out that Nelson actually had a long history of struggling with his mental health. He suffered from depression and anxiety and had a history of suicidal thoughts. And the reason that fact is so important is because of what happens next. In 2020, the pandemic hit. And in November, Nelson, his wife Anne, and their daughter Alexis or got sick at the same time. Ann and Alexis recovered quickly, but it seemed like the illness hit Nelson hard. He had asthma, and he was struggling with basic things, like just getting from the bedroom to the bathroom. At one point, it was so bad that he went to the hospital. And it seems like at this point, Nelson was really afraid. Like he told his daughter, take care of your mother. Don't let her alone. It took him months to recover. And even once Nelson was feeling better physically, he told his daughter Alexis that Covid had changed him. Nelson said he used to experience a lot of anxiety, but now that had gone, and instead he was left with the most powerful depression he'd ever experienced in his life.

[Carl Miller]

That's really unsettling, extremely unsettling. It sounds like what you're beginning to point to is that Covid is beginning to like trans figure Nelson's personality itself, that he's actually, in a way, becoming a different person throughout this illness.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yes. And there's other signs that something is going on. For instance, he got a pair of snakeskin cowboy boots and a matching belt buckle and a hat, and he started listening to old country songs on repeat, Got really interested in his own appearance, started lifting weights and going for long walks at night on his own. He also got a concealed carry permit and started carrying guns and knives everywhere with him. And he signed up to some dating sites. He would actually tell Anne he was going to Civil War reenactment meetings, when really he'd be going to meet up with other women. All of this is going on from December to April 2021, and that's when he tries to kill Ann.

[Carl Miller]

So hang on, hang on. Is the idea here that Covid somehow set off a series of processes, somehow in Nelson that changed him sufficiently to mean that that is why he tried to have his wife killed?

[Caroline Thornham]

That's what the defense are arguing. Nelson's family believe that Covid actually triggered an episode of bipolar disorder.

[Carl Miller]

What does Nelson himself actually say about all of this?

[Caroline Thornham]

Nelson doesn't say much. He says he doesn't know why he tried to kill his wife and that his mind was fogged. He also says he considered pulling out, but that he ultimately didn't do anything to stop it. But we don't just have to rely on him and his family. Nelson was analyzed by a forensic psychologist, too, and they supported what the family is saying. The psychologist found he was exhibiting symptoms consistent with a bipolar diagnosis. And she says that it's plausible that it could have been triggered by Covid. The psychologist's report raised A lot of questions for the prosecution. So they went back and looked at the evidence, too. And it seems like maybe Nelson was hiding more from Ann than she ever realized.

[Carl Miller]

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[Caroline Thornham]

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[Carl Miller]

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[Caroline Thornham]

After his arrest, Nelson gets charged with one count of murder for hire. And because of his bipolar diagnosis, Nelson's family argue he should get released with time served, meaning he would be let out of prison immediately. But the prosecution wants Nelson to go to jail for seven to nine years. And a big difference for that discrepancy between what the family and the prosecution think Nelson deserves comes down to a fundamental difference of opinion about what really happened. So the first thing the prosecution says is that Nelson's family's timeline of events is wrong.

[Carl Miller]

Oh, really?

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah. So the family's timeline all hinges on this idea that everything changed after Nelson got Covid. But the prosecution say that Nelson started having affairs before his COVID infection.

[Carl Miller]

Oh, wow.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah. In fact, he'd signed up to Ashley Madison as well as an older singles website called our time in October 2020. So that's actually a month before he got sick. He was using the name Chris James, and he started chatting with a woman called Kendall Storm. They broke off communications after Storm started a relationship with somebody else.

[Carl Miller]

Okay, so Nelson's already having affairs before the COVID strikes.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yes. Then after he gets sick and recovers, he starts messaging Kendall Storm again. They text, they email, and then they meet up in person. They meet up three times in February. Twice in Cookeville, Tennessee, and once in a hotel in Nashville.

[Carl Miller]

So that's three Civil war reenactments in one month.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, that's probably what Anne, Nelson's wife, was thinking. And then Kendall Storm breaks off communication with Nelson, or as she knows him, Chris James, at the beginning of March. So we're one month now before Nelson tries to kill Anne. Kendall tells Nelson that she's seeing someone else. The prosecution say Nelson was not inclined to let her go.

[Carl Miller]

What did he do?

[Caroline Thornham]

On the 8th of March, he sends Kendall a handwritten letter saying that he knows her home address. Then she receives another letter with five songs Nelson had written about her. The letter also said that Nelson had seen Storm's boyfriend's truck in her driveway. That detail is Particularly sinister because the truck wouldn't have been visible from the road. So that means Nelson must have been hanging around outside the house without her knowledge.

[Carl Miller]

Are you pointing to this as a kind of motive, actually for killing anne?

[Caroline Thornham]

So the FBI put forward two viable motives. Firstly, Anne has a $100,000 life insurance policy, and Nelson is the person who's going to get all of that if she dies. And secondly, Nelson wanted to, and I'm going to quote them here, eliminate any impediment to his engagement in relations with persons other than his wife.

[Carl Miller]

This is really interesting. The prosecution is actually going after the timeline, which they're saying doesn't point to the personality change in the COVID infection as really being the reason why Nelson's behaving in the way that he is.

[Caroline Thornham]

There's no direct evidence to back up the prosecution's theory that Nelson did this for the life insurance money. We haven't seen any indication that Nelson was in financial trouble. It's hard to know. Sometimes people write down their motive, but Nelson didn't. There's nothing in the order messages that gives us any kind of clue. Nobody knows what was in his head.

[Carl Miller]

Okay, well, it sounds like we've got here two totally different explanations for what happened.

[Caroline Thornham]

It's interesting because if you look at the two different narratives in detail, it's not like they're totally inconsistent. For example, even if Nelson was already having affairs, both sides seem to agree that his behaviour got a lot weirder in the months after he was infected with COVID And the prosecution's narrative really shows in detail that in the weeks leading up to the kill order, Nelson did seem to be having some kind of breakdown. I mean, he was using these pseudonyms, exhibiting really erratic behavior, sending unsolicited songs he'd written to a woman who didn't want anything to do with him. And all of this apparently was being hidden from Anne and the rest of the family. It seems like Anne only started to piece together what had been going on after Nelson was arrested when she found credit card bills for hotel rooms.

[Carl Miller]

It does seem bizarre to me in a way that Covid can cause such an extreme reaction in someone.

[Caroline Thornham]

I was wondering the same things as you. I wanted to speak to someone with more experience and expertise who could tell us if that's even possible. I couldn't speak to Nelson's forensic psychologist, and there are only a small number of people in the state of Tennessee who are qualified to assess people psychologically for court. Thankfully, one of them did agree to speak with me. Dr. Julie Gallagher, the former president of the American Academy of Forensic Psychology.

[Dr. Julie Gallagher]

In this case, my understanding is the individual was diagnosed with bipolar 2 disorder. And in bipolar 2 disorder, the person has the depressive episodes, but then has hypomanic episodes. So that's kind of a lessened maniac. It typically lasts for no more than four days at a time. And it's the same symptoms, but not to the same degree of severity. So you wouldn't expect them to interfere with their daily functioning at the same level, and they would not become psychotic. Almost by definition, individuals having a hypomanic episode do not have psychosis. As well, someone with hypomania typically would not qualify for an insanity defense. Those symptoms just aren't that level of severity that they would undermine the person's ability to understand the nature of what they were doing. I will say I have looked at the literature on Covid and mania, but there are a number of case reports, interestingly, of onset of mania in individuals during or after a COVID infection. And interestingly, they were mostly in individuals in their 50s and 60s. An onset of mania is typically well in the 20s. So it's interesting. It may not exactly map onto our known mental illnesses. Right. We may find out there's some type of mood disorder that's triggered by Covid, but we don't know yet.

[Carl Miller]

So we can't rule in Covid personality change theory, but we can't rule it out either.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, Dr. Gallagher seemed to be taking it very seriously as a factor here potentially. And I thought her caveats were actually really interesting about that. Like maybe the thing that we're seeing as diverging from the pattern of his diagnosis. Hypomania aren't necessarily a cause for more suspicion because they could actually be a symptom of COVID.

[Carl Miller]

So how does this all interplay with the actual legal judgments which were made?

[Caroline Thornham]

Well, the judge sided with the prosecution. In the end, the judge sentences Nelson to seven years, followed by a three year period of supervised release, during which he would have to take part in mental health treatment as well.

[Carl Miller]

Okay, so he could have been given nine years. He is given seven years. So clearly the judge does recognize some mitigation. But ultimately, this is the judge siding with the prosecution. So this, I suppose, in one sense then does settle the question of legal culpability, but it doesn't change maybe the question of emotional culpability in the sense that the family, including Anne, who was the most wronged party here by miles, they all seem to stand by Nelson, don't they?

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah, I mean, this is something I actually asked Dr. Gallagher about, and she told me I needed to speak to a philosopher or a priest. But I think having spoken to his former students, having spoken to Dr. Gallagher, the psychologist, I can at least understand why Anne has made that choice. Because we're still grappling with this question of Nelson's culpability, you know, not his legal culpability, but, you know, whether we think he was as himself when he made this choice to make this order. And if we have this many questions and we don't even know this man, I can't even imagine what it must feel like to grapple with this. If it's the person that you've loved and had by your side for 30 years, I can so see why you would so desperately want to believe that the person that you married wasn't deceiving you this whole time, and they really were the person that you fell in love with and that's been your partner. And to hold onto that hope and try and work through this as extreme as the circumstances are and from the outside, I really hope. I hope Anne is right. You know, we don't know, but I hope she is.

[Carl Miller]

There's a really strong temptation in the whole way in which our investigation works and the characters that we encounter to divide them all up into these neat categories of good and bad. And it's tempting, isn't it? Because the people that we've encountered, that we've come face to face with often, you know, are the worst epitomes of human evil that I think I've ever had to encounter.

[Caroline Thornham]

Yeah. It's hard to read the messages of somebody plotting someone else's death sometimes graphically, incredibly specifically, and remain neutral.

[Carl Miller]

It is. And I don't remain neutral if I'm honest here either, because I think we cannot avoid what Nelson tried to do. He tried to have his wife killed secretly and urgently, and that's never going to go away. This is just massively conflicting because, like, on the one hand, you cannot diminish, like, how terrible what Nelson tried to do was. On the second, it's really hard to know just how responsible he is for it. That feels very, very uncertain. And in the light of all of that, we've also got a family sticking by Nelson, refusing to define him by that particular act, and, in fact, actually remembering who Nelson was before.

[Caroline Thornham]

And really, we need to think about Anne here. She's the person at the center of this all. And in other cases, you know, we've been able to speak to victims and we know that they're happy that we did what we did and passed the kill order to the police. It seems like this is a much more ambiguous situation, and maybe Anne doesn't think it was a good thing. You know, maybe she'd rather we didn't act the way we did.

[Carl Miller]

It's extremely complicated feeling because we like to feel when we step into these cases, like we are actually incontrovertibly and without doubt helping the person who's being targeted. It feels much weirder, and it's much harder when we don't really know what Ann wants and we don't know whether she would have wanted us to intervene in the way that we did. We've seen in other cases that people can move on even when we step in these lives. And the way that we do rips apart relationships and rips apart routines and assumptions and everything else. But people do move on. They can move on. They rebuild. And in many other cases, that's rebuilding, obviously, without the perpetrator, without the person that's targeting them. Maybe in this case it isn't, and Anne and Nelson rebuild together. But in any case, I hope that this is something which, in the years ahead, Ann heals from. I really do. In the next episode of Kill List, one of the cases that's closest to my heart. In the small, idyllic city of Sun Prairie, Wisconsin, a custody battle is raging between two cottage sweethearts, one that will end in an attempted murder.

[Nelson Replogle]

I had the kids and she was just banging on the front door, banging on all the windows, screaming bloody murder out in the front yard because I wouldn't drop them off at her house. The police were gonna come after me. The schools are coming after me, everyone's coming after me, and there's nothing I can do to stop it. And I was terrified of it.

[Carl Miller]

If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondri app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and novel. This is Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carl Miller. The reporter for this episode is Caroline Thornham, and it was produced and written by our series producer, Tom Wright. Kill List is also produced by Jay Kotajevich, with additional production by Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Amalia Saltland, and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lina Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero for Wandery, our senior producer is Mandy Gorenstein. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for novel. Sarah Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plews is our senior managing producer for Wandery. Original music by Skyler Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Daniel Kempson for novel. Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty. Day.