First Contact | 3

Summary

Kill List: Episode 3 - "First Contact"

Introduction

In Episode 3 of Kill List, titled "First Contact," host Carl Miller delves deeper into his harrowing investigation into a clandestine murder-for-hire website operating on the dark web. As Carl uncovers more targets and faces increasing obstacles, the episode highlights the emotional and logistical challenges of protecting innocent lives against unseen threats.

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Urgent Warnings and Immediate Threats

The episode opens with Carl informing Elena, a woman in Switzerland, about the latest payment made for her assassination. This call occurs late at night, emphasizing the urgency and seriousness of the threat.

• Carl Miller [00:00]: "It's approaching midnight and I'm on the phone to Elena. It's seven days since I first warned her about the threat to her life."

Elena initially appears skeptical but gradually acknowledges the gravity of her situation as multiple payments accumulate, totaling approximately $33,000—an amount Carl describes as "a legitimately serious amount of money to have someone killed" [02:19].

Expanding the Kill List: Anna's Story

Simultaneously, Carl tracks another target, Anna, a fishmonger from a small Spanish village. Anna's confrontation with the threat unfolds as follows:

• Carl Miller [07:04]: "Another one of the targets is a woman called Anna. She lives in the northwest of Spain and someone paid $24,000 to have her killed. I prefer a car accident. A week is good."

Anna's situation becomes urgent when her safety is compromised, and she agrees to collaborate with Carl and Esperanza Escribano, a journalist from Barcelona. Their attempt to seek help from local authorities initially meets ridicule:

• Esperanza Escribano [13:07]: "What is this? What are you telling us?"

This interaction highlights the disbelief and systemic issues within law enforcement when faced with cyber-related crimes and violence against women.

Personalizing the Threat: Bruno's Involvement

Elena's backstory is meticulously explored, revealing her tumultuous relationship with her estranged husband, Bruno. Their marriage was fraught with jealousy, especially concerning Elena's daughter, leading to escalating threats and violent confrontations.

• Elena [24:10]: "Now, I can't actually translate that. It says, du elen te drek sau. Can you imagine what that means? Well, it's something which you pick, you horrible pig."

Bruno's aggressive behavior culminates in the discovery of a room stocked with weapons:

• Carl Miller [37:23]: "They found... weapons and munitions. It looks like he was actually thinking about doing it himself."

This revelation underscores the imminent danger Elena faces and the lengths Bruno was prepared to go to eliminate her.

Challenges with Law Enforcement

Carl's attempts to collaborate with Swiss police are met with frustration and misunderstanding. The police erroneously suspect Carl of orchestrating the kill list:

• Elena [28:10]: "That website was set up by you journalists to get a story."

This accusation strains the relationship between Carl and law enforcement, making it increasingly difficult to navigate the investigation and protect the victims.

Escalation and Continued Threats

As the investigation progresses, the kill list proliferates with new targets from around the globe, including individuals in Arkansas, the Hague, Canberra, and Nancy, France. Each new target brings unique challenges and heightened risks:

• Carl Miller [42:06]: "We tried to reach a man in Arkansas... There’s a woman in the Hague... two targets in Canberra, Australia..."

The diversity of the targets amplifies the complexity of the case, stretching Carl's resources and emotional resilience.

Moral Dilemmas and Emotional Toll

Carl grapples with the ethical implications of his actions, recognizing the thin line between saving lives and potentially endangering them through his involvement:

• Carl Miller [38:29]: "There's simply no safe way for us to be doing what we're trying to do. And yet doing nothing is not an option either. And that feels like a sort of moral trap that I don't know how to get out of."

This internal conflict is compounded by the relentless pressure and sleepless nights, highlighting the human cost of uncovering such dark networks.

Breakthrough and Arrest

A turning point occurs when Spanish authorities arrest an individual connected to the threats against Anna. However, the relief is short-lived as further threats emerge:

• Anna [35:12]: "Yesterday I was working at the market and this week got a call and a voice of a woman said, watch your back, I'm coming for you."

Additionally, Elena receives distressing news about Bruno's arrest and his confession:

• Carl Miller [36:38]: "When Bruno was interrogated, he confessed... why he did it and he thought his existence was in danger because, you know, I wanted that money, you know, because of the divorce and everything."

Despite the arrest, the realization that Bruno had planned the attack himself adds a new layer of fear and uncertainty:

• Elena [37:43]: "They found that he had rented a room where he had weapons and munitions. It looks like he was actually thinking about doing it himself."

Heightened Stakes and Global Implications

As the kill list expands internationally, Carl's team faces mounting pressure to act swiftly. The lack of support from law enforcement forces them to operate independently, often feeling isolated and overwhelmed:

• Carl Miller [42:45]: "We're checking in, answering questions, providing updates. None of this was ever what I intended. This has become so much bigger, so much more unwieldy than I could ever have anticipated."

The episode closes with Carl reaching out for help, emphasizing the dire need for global law enforcement collaboration to combat the pervasive threat of the kill list.

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Notable Quotes

• Carl Miller [02:19]: "I'm terrified that at any moment, Elena's husband could turn up at her flat and kill her himself."
• Esperanza Escribano [09:54]: "I was desperate. It was like my life is now reduced to this."
• Carl Miller [28:49]: "It's either shockingly irresponsible or it's actually a deliberate maneuver to have Elena distrust us."
• Carl Miller [38:29]: "There's simply no safe way for us to be doing what we're trying to do. And yet doing nothing is not an option either."
• Carl Miller [35:55]: "This clearly isn't over."

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Conclusion

"First Contact" intensifies the narrative of Kill List, portraying the relentless pursuit to save lives against a backdrop of bureaucratic indifference and personal vendettas. Carl Miller's dedication underscores the complexities and moral ambiguities inherent in combating cyber-enabled violence. As the kill list continues to grow, the episode leaves listeners on edge, anticipating the next steps in this perilous journey to protect the innocent.

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Credits

Kill List Episode 3 "First Contact" is brought to you by Wondery and Novel, featuring contributions from Caroline Thornham, Tom Wright, and additional research from various dedicated individuals. Original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell enhances the gripping narrative.

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For those eager to delve deeper into Carl Miller's investigation, all episodes of Kill List are available for binge listening on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform. Subscribe to Wondery+ for early access and an ad-free experience.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandery plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandri in the Wandary app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi there. It's Cole here. I'm so sorry to phone you this late. It's approaching midnight and I'm on the phone to Elena. It's seven days since I first warned her about the threat to her life. And the reason we wanted to is just that we kind of had some information today that we didn't think could wait. So, again, I'm so sorry to phone you this late and to leave you waiting there. Elena lives in Switzerland, and just a few days ago, we were strangers. The first time we spoke, I told Elena that someone had paid around $7,000 in Bitcoin for her murder on the dark Web. Now I'm calling with an update. Yesterday another payment was made.

[Elena]

Another payment was made.

[Carl Miller]

Another payment. Yeah. So the person using the website has made a number of payments now. Six in total, but the last one was made yesterday. It's a payment of. This might not mean much to you. 0.156 Bitcoin, which overall takes the amount paid up to 1.7, which is about $33,000.

[Elena]

$33,000.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. We just wanted to make sure you had that information and check that you're okay. And to tell you that we're obviously going to continue to talk to the police there in Switzerland and make sure they have this information as well. Y.

[Elena]

You know, heavy.

[Carl Miller]

I mean, this is obviously really concerning stuff. I think if without huge disruption to your life, you can stay somewhere where your husband might find it more difficult to reach you, I definitely think that that would probably be better, and I imagine that you would feel safer there as well. I offer to pay for her to go immediately to a hotel. No, I think it would be okay.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I mean, he won't reach me.

[Elena]

He's not going to do anything. You know, just put the contract on you, didn't he?

[Carl Miller]

You know, there's no. What? There's no other hitman coming for you, as we. As we've said before. So that the danger or the concern is really your husband. It's not anyone else. We're going to phone the police now, and we can always talk to you. And I'm sorry that every time we phone, it's just to give you more horrible news, really. But we just, you know, want to keep you informed as everything we're seeing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

So I will hear from you again?

[Carl Miller]

Yes.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Carl Miller]

All right, Good night. Bye. Bye. Bye. Can you Fucking imagine being told this. I'm still shaking with adrenaline after that call, so I stay on the line to speak with my producer. It's night, and you're by yourself in a flat, one town away from your armed husband, who you've learned yesterday has just put more money on trying to kill you. I would be out of the fucking country. I mean, I wouldn't be. I wouldn't just be in my daughter's house. I would have moved my family out of the country while this was happening. $33,000. Closer to 34. This one actually is like a legitimately serious amount of money to have someone killed with. I'm terrified that at any moment, Elena's husband could turn up at her flat and kill her himself. And that's only one of a long list of other worries I'm facing. At exactly the same time as we're trying to keep Elena safe, we're tracking down another target on the kill list. A fishmonger from a small village on the Spanish coast. Another case, another threat. And another person to reach. But our investigation isn't just getting bigger. It's growing more complicated. More languages, legal systems, more police forces to navigate. And that complexity brings jeopardy. We're having to make more and more life and death decisions where still one wrong step could spell disaster.

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[Carl Miller]

From Wandery and Novel. I'm Carl Miller. This is kill list Episode 3 First Contact. Day after day, new kill orders keep on coming. It's relentless. The target needs to be killed.

[Elena]

He is a white, 5 foot 5.

[Carl Miller]

Male I'm looking to hire for the murder of a woman. I can send you 214 Bitcoin tomorrow. Do you accept? One of the targets is a woman called Anna. She lives in the northwest of Spain and someone paid $24,000 to have her killed. I prefer a car accident. A week is good. So the same week that I was trying to reach Elena in Switzerland, I also needed to find someone on the ground in Spain.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I got an email from a friend.

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza Escribano is a journalist from Barcelona.

[Esperanza Escribano]

And he told me, hey, I know a team of journalists that is working on something to do with security problems on the Internet. Would you be interested? So I said, yeah, why not?

[Carl Miller]

So on 25 November 2020, Esperanza got on a plane. By 5am the next morning, as the sun was beginning just to rise over the trees, she was driving a rental car through the north Spanish countryside.

[Esperanza Escribano]

The landscape is very, very green and wet, mountains and rivers. I felt I was at that moment maybe the only person who could warn Anna.

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza knew she needed to find Anna quickly. The hit was placed only yesterday. And given that Anna lives in a small village, the person who wants her dead could be just around the corner. According to the order messages Anna leaves to go to work at the fish markets in a nearby town at 5:40 in the morning. So that's where Esperanza went.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Okay, so I'm in the market.

[Carl Miller]

Inside, rows of fish were stacked up in piles of ice. A few early Christmas decorations glinted in the gloomy November light. Esperanza weaved up and down the stalls, scrutinizing every face.

[Esperanza Escribano]

And I thought, no, no, they don't look like Anna.

[Carl Miller]

She started asking around the market.

[Esperanza Escribano]

So nobody knows Kerry here? I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I'm so lost.

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza stepped outside to smoke a shaky cigarette.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I was desperate. It was like my life is now reduced to this. I mean, my only mission, my only goal in this life is to find this woman and I can't find her.

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza drove to Anna's house. Nobody answered the door. So she walked next door and spoke with one of the neighbours, who at first was suspicious and wouldn't give her Anna's number.

[Esperanza Escribano]

And I was like, okay, I understand. That is a life or death issue. Could you call her and ask her to call me, please?

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza had just pulled up at a petrol station down the road to get fuel when her phone rang. It was Anna. She was safe.

[Esperanza Escribano]

And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. After almost 12 hours, that felt like years. And she was laughing like, okay, like, this is very weird. But I think I sounded, I don't know, reliable in a way.

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza told us that Anna had agreed to meet in a village a few miles over. So now, for the second time in two days, I had to come face to face with someone on the kill list and deliver possibly the worst news of their life. Hi.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Hi.

[Carl Miller]

Hi there. Can you hear me?

[Esperanza Escribano]

Yes.

[Carl Miller]

Well, Anna, firstly, thanks for finding time to speak to us. It's nice to see you. When I first saw Anna over the video call, she was sitting with Esperanza at a table outside a bar. The sun had set, and Anna looked at me through the screen with warm brown eyes. She gave me a nervous smile.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I'm translating on the go because it's already a weird situation.

[Carl Miller]

Thank you. There's really no easy way for me to say this, and I'm sorry to be. I broke the news about the hit, and then I had to wait for Esperanza to translate it. I watched as Ana slowly received my message. She kept looking between Esperanza and the screen.

[Esperanza Escribano]

She says she's freaking out and she's laughing, but just because she's nervous.

[Carl Miller]

Anna was clearly in shock, but she did believe me. And not only that, she already had an idea of who it might be that put her on the kill list. But she couldn't be certain. We made a plan. Ana and Esperanza would drive together to the police station in the nearest city. It's a tall, ugly office building situated on a narrow street in the center of the town. They'd phone me from there so I could then tell the police about the kill order.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Anna is parking, and we're gonna enter the police station.

[Carl Miller]

At the front desk, Esperanza did her best to explain what was going.

[Esperanza Escribano]

On. I knew what I was going to explain could seem a movie from Hollywood, so I decided to be very serious and explain it with the seriousness it required.

[Carl Miller]

They told the officer this was life.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Or death, and they looked at me like Eh, what the fuck? What is this? What are you telling us?

[Carl Miller]

They were told to sit in a waiting room and an officer would be out to see them soon.

[Esperanza Escribano]

We entered this very old fashioned waiting room full of banners with different campaigns against gender violence. And that's when we heard the police inside talking about the case. The Dark Web. Whoa. The Dark Web hired someone to kill her. What is this? It's a science fiction movie. And they were laughing, laughing.

[Carl Miller]

I can't believe it. Esperanza said.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I felt so insulted and I was really, really angry.

[Carl Miller]

A police officer finally came out and told Anna, an Esperanza, their case would have to be transferred to Spain's national police force, the Guardia Seville. They're kind of a military police force or gendarmerie like you get in France.

[Esperanza Escribano]

And I said, well, don't worry, we will just go to the Civil Guard because I don't rely on these people anymore. I can't trust someone who was laughing at us.

[Carl Miller]

Esprance and Anna stormed out of the police station. Back in the car, Anna's anger began to curdle into bitter resignation. Either there's a death, she said, or nothing happens. As I encounter more cases, I see a common thread amongst the people who are on the kill list. Many, if not most of them, are women. So as we go to the police, I'm increasingly worried that what we're reporting is not one, but two kinds of crime the police won't take seriously. On the one hand, a cybercrime involving Bitcoin and the Darknet. On the other, violence against women. Anna told her story in front of male police officers surrounded by posters about gender violence. She told them about a credible threat to her life. And they just laughed. We get support from Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday. With just the right gift from Uncommon Goods, it's a spot for incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list. Uncommon Goods has products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US Meaning you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. So for me, I bought a gift for a friend who loves fruit, and the gift are these small woolen things that you put on the top of bananas to apparently keep them fresh for longer. Sounds a bit odd. I mean, definitely uncommon, but I genuinely think he'll love them. And with every purchase you make and Uncommon Goods, they'll give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com list. That's UncommonGoods.com L I S T for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon goods. We're all out of the ordinary.

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[Carl Miller]

In Switzerland, things are not going much better. The police have taken our information and they did check on Elena, but since then they've told us almost nothing about the investigation. And so the only way we can learn more is via Elena herself. But at least in this case, we have a clear suspect. Her estranged husband. Switzerland has some of the most restrictive privacy laws in the world, so we're going to be calling Elena's husband Bruno.

[Elena]

He's my second husband.

[Carl Miller]

In 1992, Elena was in her late 30s, divorced and working as a secretary. She'd grown up in the Swiss countryside and lived an adventurous life working in London and post war Berlin. Now she was looking for love again.

[Elena]

Thirty years ago, when you wanted to meet someone, you had in the papers. Those, I don't know the word for it.

[Carl Miller]

Like classified ads.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Miller]

Good sense of humor and like, stuff like that. Interest in boats, clean.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Carl Miller]

Elena was browsing the classified ads in her local paper when one caught her eye. It belonged to Bruno, an ex army officer.

[Elena]

I wrote to him and then he called me and that's how it started.

[Carl Miller]

You don't remember what his advert actually said?

[Elena]

No, I can't remember. That's been too long. Now.

[Carl Miller]

Elena does remember speaking on the phone with him, though.

[Elena]

I thought he was actually quite funny. Had, you know, a lot to talk about. He was quite younger than I am, so I thought that very interesting as well.

[Carl Miller]

They met up, but on first impressions, Elena wasn't exactly bowled over.

[Elena]

I wouldn't say he's handsome, but not that bad looking. He can be very charming if he wants to be.

[Carl Miller]

Bruno was smart, he was successful. He'd been in the army and worked as an engineer. He'd even started his own company. The two of them hit it off. They started dating and eventually moved into a large house together where Bruno could run his business on the first two floors. After three years of dating, they got married. But even in those early days, things weren't always smooth sailing.

[Elena]

We always had problems when it didn't work out like he wanted it to work out. My reaction was always, you know, just to keep quiet for a couple of days, maybe a week. And then everything went back to before.

[Carl Miller]

The way Elena describes it, these arguments could be over the smallest of things, like directions when they were driving. The details of the argument were always secondary to the real Bruno always needed to be right. Elena doesn't like confrontation, so she would find herself retreating until Bruno's stormy moods had passed. Then things would settle down again until the next argument. For years, that routine worked, and a lot of the time they were happy together. Bruno's business was a success, and they were building a house and traveled regularly to exciting places like the Maldives. But there was one real sticking point in their relationship.

[Elena]

I thought he was jealous of the kids, especially my daughter.

[Carl Miller]

Elena had two children from her previous marriage, twins, a boy and a girl. They were young when Bruno entered the picture, but as they grew older, Bruno would argue with Elena's daughter. She reminded Bruno of Elena's romantic past, and that made him jealous. Elena's daughter was also more forthright than her mum and wouldn't back down in an argument. Bruno did not like to be challenged, certainly not by a young woman.

[Elena]

I was always in between, you know, between the two of them. That was actually my biggest problem. And, I mean, for the last, I don't know, 10 years, I was taking medications against depression.

[Carl Miller]

The stress worn Elena, but she kept quiet. And when the kids grew up and moved out, things got easier and the calm periods grew longer. But the tension was always there, ready to bubble over. And one Friday afternoon, it did. Elena's daughter had asked Bruno for money to help buy her first home. Bruno complained that she was entitled, and in the ensuing argument, he gave Elena an ultimatum.

[Elena]

He said, I've got to decide.

[Carl Miller]

Him or her, your husband or your daughter. He must have understood in a way that was a kind of impossible decision for you.

[Elena]

I think he just didn't care. And he. I suppose he thought that it was going to be like any other time. You know, stop talking for a week, and then everything is going to be okay again.

[Carl Miller]

For Elena, this moment crystallized something she'd been feeling for a long time, but perhaps had admitted even to herself. She wasn't happy in the marriage and she needed to leave it. Elena got in touch with a divorce lawyer. She moved upstairs to the room where her daughter had lived growing up and started looking for her own place. Elena Says that that was the moment when Bruno realised she was genuinely serious about leaving him.

[Elena]

It's something he never thought could or would happen to him, because actually, his whole life, everything always went very smooth and business is doing well and everything was always okay when I filed for divorce. Then he got really bad.

[Carl Miller]

Elena says that Bruno told mutual friends he couldn't understand why she'd left. Yet at exactly the same time, he started sending her aggressive WhatsApp messages, full of accusations and insults.

[Elena]

Okay, yeah, here's a nice one. Here's a nice one. It says. Now, I can't actually translate that. It says, du elen te drek sau. Can you imagine what that means? Well, it's something which you pick, you horrible pig.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Something like this, in this way.

[Elena]

He says, For 25 years, I've been living actually off him and been lazy and haven't been working and only profited off him. Then he says, believe me, you and your. And your slut daughter will get nothing.

[Carl Miller]

What do you think he's really trying to do here? So you said it was partly about money. Is he just really angry with you.

[Elena]

Or, you know, through that divorce and the court involved, he's going to have to give me quite some money, and that's something he just doesn't like to do.

[Carl Miller]

The texts grew even more sinister when Bruno messaged Elena with detailed descriptions of where she'd been and what she'd been doing.

[Elena]

He must have been organizing someone who followed me. He said, you know, private investigators doesn't cost that much anymore.

[Carl Miller]

Another time, Elena was at the hairdressers in the old neighborhood where she and Bruno had lived together. She was sitting in front of the mirror when her hairdresser caught sight of something outside.

[Elena]

She says, your husband's coming. And I was looking out the window, and really he came walking straight up to my car.

[Carl Miller]

At the time, Elena still had the logo of Bruno's business on the back of her car. Bruno walked over to it holding a bottle of black spray paint.

[Elena]

He sprayed my back window where the logo was all black. My daughter actually said I should go to the police. You know, I said, that's not worth it.

[Carl Miller]

After that incident at the hairdresser's, Elena didn't see or hear from Bruno for several months. Until one night in October 2020, a few weeks before I first told her about the kill order, Elena was out having dinner with some friends at a restaurant.

[Elena]

He walked in with two other people, and as he was sitting there, he was showing me the middle finger. And as he walked Out. Later on, he looked at me and he just made the movement with his hand, like cutting my throat.

[Carl Miller]

Elena draws her hands across her neck.

[Elena]

Then he just walked out. I was stunned.

[Carl Miller]

That dinner was on October 14, and Nordvan's first message to the assassination site was just four days before. A week after I reported the new payments to Elena and the police, I'm still waiting for an update. There's been no news about whether law enforcement are any closer to catching the person responsible, whether that's Bruno or someone else. And Elena told me something that makes me question whether they're really doing everything they can to keep her safe. She says the police told her that they have a theory as to who could really be behind the assassination site.

[Elena]

That website was set up by you journalists to get a story.

[Carl Miller]

Wow. So the Swiss police believe I am running the assassination site. I mean, I'm just totally speechless. I mean, in what world is it okay for the police to be sharing a baseless hunch with the person who is in the middle of all of this? It's either shockingly irresponsible or it's actually a deliberate maneuver to have Elena distrust us. I could never have done that to you. And setting up an assassination site is illegal, so there's no. There's no way we could have done it.

[Elena]

Oh, God. I didn't really believe it.

[Carl Miller]

That is a crazy part of an even madder story. Against all my expectations, the interactions we're having with the police are starting to seem adversarial. And with that, I have a growing sense that our small, fragile team now sits in the middle of all of these different hostile forces. In one direction, we have the shadowy cybercriminals running the site. In another, we have the murderous customers taking out the orders. But now a third, the police, who either don't believe us or think we're somehow wrapped up in all of this. It feels like we've entered a very lonely place. If we can't change how the police see us, we're never going to protect Elena, Anna, or any of the other targets on the list.

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[Carl Miller]

After they were laughed out of the first police station, Esperanz and Anna drove to The Guardia Seville across town. Hola.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Hola.

[Carl Miller]

Esperanza once again explained to the officer at the front desk why she and Anna had come. But this time nobody laughed at her.

[Esperanza Escribano]

We felt finally relieved. I mean, you're going to these places with a high vulnerability and finally they're saying, I believe you. And wow, that's crucial.

[Carl Miller]

Hi, everyone. Can everyone hear me?

[Esperanza Escribano]

Yes, they can.

[Carl Miller]

Okay, great. So can you. Is it worth me introducing myself?

[Esperanza Escribano]

Yes, I think.

[Carl Miller]

All right. Well, it's an hour or so later and I've just joined a video call. From my screen I can see Esperanza, Anna and an officer from the Civil Guard all squeezed into a tiny office at the police station. It's my turn to try and explain. Okay, let's start off by describing the website. So it's on the darknet. I lay out the whole story. The site, the messages, the payments. There is also a payment of roughly $13,000 in Bitcoin, which we're very confident represents the payment for the hit. So money has changed hands as well as the messages. The officer tells us he'll pass our information to the Cyber Investigations Unit. He tells us to expect follow up calls from the police. I'm relieved we aren't being laughed at, but I think back to the UK police. We'll be in touch. Can mean a lot of things. The next day when I check in with Anna and Esperanza again, Anna says she also has reservations about the police.

[Esperanza Escribano]

She thinks the Civil Guard only listened to us because I was with her, because I'm a journalist from a prestigious media and they only listen to us because she had that support.

[Carl Miller]

So does Anna want us to continue kind of providing this support so to continue putting pressure on the police if we can, and helping them if we can, to try and get a serious investigation set up here?

[Esperanza Escribano]

Yes. And right now what I think is that we have to go with all our weapons.

[Carl Miller]

We agree to keep in touch. Now at least Anna knows about the danger she's in. I'm really moved by how quickly she's been willing to trust me. Having Esperanza there physically has made all the difference. In the days that follow, I wait to hear whether the police have made any arrests, but nothing comes. There are no new messages in Anna's or Elena's orders. In January 2021, after weeks of nerves, I finally get Anna. Hello. Hola.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Hola.

[Carl Miller]

Hola. With Esperanza translating, Anna tells me that one morning, just three days before Christmas, a police unit tore through the peaceful quiet of a tiny Spanish Village looking for one man.

[Esperanza Escribano]

All the special forces of the police came to arrest him. Like going through the roof with this super big guns. And then they took him to the police station.

[Carl Miller]

The Spanish police have finally made their move. For the first time since the killers landed in my lap, I can feel the knot in my chest begin to loosen. But Anna is not feeling my sense of relief.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I didn't understand why, because it's been four years since we don't talk anymore.

[Carl Miller]

For legal reasons, I can't tell you the name of the person who was arrested. The case against them has not yet concluded. But I can tell you that it's not anyone Anna suspected. It had been four years since Anna last heard from the person who was arrested. She'd never even considered them. And it doesn't stop there.

[Esperanza Escribano]

So yesterday I was working at the market and this week got a call and a voice of a woman said, watch your back, I'm coming for you.

[Carl Miller]

Watch your back, I'm coming for you. Let's just go back to what on earth is actually happening here. Because normally with an arrest of the person trying to kill someone, our job is complete, you know, hooray, we're heroes. But then Anna gets another threatening phone call. So this clearly isn't over.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I feel like things are not going better, but worse. And I'm just tired of this.

[Carl Miller]

Hiya.

[Elena]

Hi, Carl.

[Carl Miller]

How are you doing?

[Elena]

So.

[Carl Miller]

So when I speak to Elena, I hope for better news. Thanks for having us in again. I'm sorry this is all dragging on so unbelievably long.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's going to take a lot longer.

[Carl Miller]

Really?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Carl Miller]

Elena had some shocking news about her estranged husband, Bruno.

[Elena]

They had him in custody and they said at least for three months.

[Carl Miller]

Really? On the 11th of December, the police arrested him three weeks after we'd first disclosed the kill order to them. When Bruno was interrogated, he confessed. Elena tells me the police have given her the interview transcripts.

[Elena]

They were asking him why he did it and he thought his existence was in danger because, you know, I wanted that money, you know, because of the divorce and everything.

[Carl Miller]

That must have been horrible for you to read.

[Elena]

Yeah, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. That's why I had to stop. I haven't read anything since then because it made me really sick and I just couldn't, you know, I just couldn't take it.

[Carl Miller]

Elena tells me that although there has been a confession, the proceedings are dragging on. The Swiss courts move slowly. It could still be years until the case is adjudicated. We're about to say goodbye when Elena remembers a detail about the police investigation. She wants me to know they found.

[Elena]

That he had rented a room where he had weapons and munitions. It looks like he was actually thinking about doing it himself.

[Carl Miller]

My God, where is this room in relation to where you are?

[Elena]

Oh, quite near, actually.

[Carl Miller]

Oh my God, that is absolutely terrifying.

[Elena]

I think he was planning it and then in the end he decided it was too dangerous. They would suspect him, you know, if something happened to me. So in the end he decided not to do it himself.

[Carl Miller]

ELENA hangs up But I need to talk to someone about what I've just heard, so I stay on the line with my producer. That was the single scariest fact of the kill list. Like, I thought I was gonna be sick. Actually, when she said that, I felt so bad. I genuinely think we saved her life. Psychologically, I think he was ready to kill her. I think it was just a practical question for him at that stage with the room and the guns. The police report that Elena sends me lays out what they found in that room. The list goes on for more than six pages. Camouflage Balaclava, black rubber marigold gloves, 110 litre rubbish sack, pepper spray times two. Gas mask, GPS tracker, telescopic baton, flick knife, ammunition, Various submachine gun, KH9 9mm Remington Model 870 Tactical with flashlight Creco rifle, Model 300. Glock 439 millimeter pistol, Walther Modal PP 9 millimeter Uzi 9 millimeter machine pistol Sigmundal P220 pistol, Sig Sauer P228 pistol, Kalashnikov AK47 Smith & Wesson.44 Magnum.29 Pratic. Shortly after reading this list, my nightmares start. They're always set in the same place. The hallway of the house where I grew up. I'm crouched behind a painted wooden door which seems thin and weak, and someone is hurling themselves against it. I don't know what he looks like, but I know it's Bruno. And with each crash the door frame strains, the hinges warp and buckle. As the door gives way, my eyes burst open into the darkness of my bedroom. I'd managed to intervene this time, but looking at that list of weapons, it's terrifyingly clear that things could have ended very, very differently. There's no guarantee we'll be so lucky next time. The kill list present two deadly and contradictory pressures. On the one hand, every case is urgent. At any moment, the person placing the order could decide to take matters into their own hands. They've clearly been fantasy about A murder and the kill order could just be one way they're going about it. But on the other hand, we're stepping into scenarios where the only thing we know is that they're dangerous. One wrong move and we could accidentally tip the potential killer off and cause the target or our local reporter to be harmed or worse. It seems to me there is simply no safe way for us to be doing what we're trying to do. And yet doing nothing is not an option either. And that feels like a sort of moral trap that I don't know how to get out of. All I can do is keep going. My team and I work with journalists in Colombia to make contact with a target in Bogota.

[Esperanza Escribano]

I honestly didn't think that he would answer this fast. It completely caught us off guard.

[Carl Miller]

We tried to reach a man in Arkansas in the U.S. okay, I'm here. I feel like my heart's about to jump out of my chest. There's a woman in the Hague, in the Netherlands. Ich herb vat informatickeche over Internet scams. And two targets in Canberra, Australia, just gearing up to phone Australia to speak to a couple that's been on the list in Nancy, France. We approach a woman who tells us she thinks her ex boyfriend is behind the hit.

[Unknown]

They broke up in October 2019.

[Esperanza Escribano]

Since then, he's been threatening her and.

[Carl Miller]

Harassing her with the police. I'm part thorn in the side, prodding, following up, asking for information, and part technical advisor, offering explanations about the order details with the victims. We're checking in, answering questions, providing updates. None of this was ever what I intended. This has become so much bigger, so much more unwieldy than I could ever have anticipated. As responsibilities pile up, so does the pressure on my team. We're not police. We're a handful of podcasters and a hacker. Yet we often find ourselves making life or death decisions under enormous, enormous time pressure with almost no information. Every time we do this, we risk tipping off the perpetrator. They could be sat next to the person we're trying to reach. Each time, there's a risk we could end up accidentally getting someone killed. Time and again, we face decisions where we genuinely don't know what to do. We're just doing our best. And all of that uncertainty, all of that urgency leads to arguments. Should we be doing this? Like, I don't have the fucking answer. I'm just so tired. This is so draining. I mean, I haven't been able to sleep properly, think about it all the time and think about what they must be going through. Just I don't know how much longer we can keep doing this. Not really sure how much longer I can keep doing this. On March 31st, first things get worse. A new order pings into my inbox. But the user isn't fantasizing about a murder. It's even sicker than that. I want the target kidnapped for seven days while being held. She will be given injections of heroin at least two times per day. She will be taught to do it herself, and pics and videos of her doing on her own should be collected. I need help. I need someone who's willing to engage with us, who won't laugh us or the victim out of the room or accuse us of being devious journalists lying to victims to drum up a story. I need a law enforcement organization that can operate on a global scale. Someone needs to step in, or sooner or later we're going to make a terrible mistake. If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wandri in the Wandri app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and Novel this is episode 3 of Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Carl Miller. It was written by me, Caroline Thornham and Tom Wright. Our lead producer is Caroline Thornham. Our producer is Tom Wright for Wandery. Our story editor is Chris Siegel and our senior producer is Russell Finch. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sortland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lena Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero and from Anique Mossou, Fuka Postma and Brenna Smith at Bellingcat. Additional reporting by Franziska Engelhardt from Podcast Schmiede, Esperanza Escribano, Jonathan Grubert, Anna Holigan, Maru Lombardo and Rodrigo Rodriguez. From L'Oropo podcast, Adelie Posman Ponte, Alexander Ritchie and Sarah White Kodachek from Reckon South Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolf for novel and Lata Pundia for Wandery. Original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham. Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander. Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson for novel. Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are George Lavender, Marshall, Louis and Jen Sargent. When you're done with the first six episodes, I go deeper into the kill list, revealing never before told stories of more victims. New episodes roll out weekly. Thank you for listening.