Nancy | 9

Summary

Kill List: Episode 9 – "Nancy"
Release Date: November 12, 2024
Host/Author: Wondery | Novel

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Introduction

"Kill List" is a gripping true-crime podcast series by Wondery and Novel that delves into the dark corners of the internet where murder-for-hire plots are born. In Episode 9, titled "Nancy," host Carl Miller uncovers a harrowing story of domestic violence, institutional failure, and the relentless pursuit of justice. This episode focuses on Melanie Vien, a young waitress in Nancy, France, whose life becomes endangered after she resolves to end her tumultuous relationship with Ahmed, her abusive boyfriend.

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Melanie's Story: Relationship with Ahmed

Melanie Vien, a 23-year-old waitress at the upscale L'Excelsior brasserie in Nancy, finds herself in a controlling and violent relationship with Ahmed, a man five years her senior with roots in Chad and the Ivory Coast. Their relationship, which began passionately in August 2018, took a dark turn after they moved to Luxembourg in April 2019. Isolated from her family and grappling with Ahmed's increasing dominance, Melanie describes her life as "like being in prison."

Notable Quote:

Melanie (Romain at 01:49): "I'm fed up, it's over, I'm going to work and then I don't want to see you ever again."

Ahmed's control escalated to physical violence and alleged rape, leaving Melanie feeling trapped and helpless. Despite several police complaints, the authorities failed to take substantive action, leaving Melanie vulnerable to continuous harassment and threats.

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On the Darkness: Discovering the Kill List

Carl Miller, a tech journalist, and his team specialize in monitoring the dark web to prevent murders orchestrated through online platforms. Their breakthrough came when they infiltrated a scam murder-for-hire website, uncovering what they termed the "kill list." This list contained real individuals like Melanie, who were targets of paid assassinations.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller (00:28): "It's a story about the voice of one woman and how hard it was for her to be heard."

As Carl navigated the dark web's underbelly, he discovered that Ahmed had paid $7,000 under the alias Zongo54 to have Melanie killed, complete with graphic instructions on how the murder should be executed.

Notable Quote:

Ahmed (02:39): "I'm very angry. I wanted, if it was possible, to strike her blood and cut her both feet."

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Reaching Out: Contacting Melanie

Realizing the imminent danger Melanie faced, Carl and his team sought to warn her. Due to language barriers, they enlisted the help of Adelie Posman Ponte, a local French journalist based in Paris. Adelie's intervention was crucial in conveying the threat to Melanie, ensuring she understood the gravity of the situation.

Notable Quote:

Adelie Posman Ponte (15:33): "She's very, very distressed, just so you know. So we're gonna have to be very gentle with her."

Despite the assistance, Melanie was accompanied by her boyfriend Romain during the initial contact, raising concerns about her immediate safety. However, it became clear that her primary fear was Ahmed's retaliation.

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Police Investigation and Challenges

The involvement of the police proved to be a significant hurdle. Although Melanie had filed multiple complaints against Ahmed for domestic violence and rape, the authorities were slow to act. Prosecutor Stephane Javet led the investigation, which initially focused on the dark web threat without connecting it directly to Melanie.

Notable Quote:

Stephane Javet (21:34): "I took it very seriously because there was a potential threat of harm to human life, and it is my job to take this kind of threat seriously."

The breakthrough occurred when the team provided the police with private messages and payment evidence linking Ahmed directly to the kill order. This information was pivotal in building a strong case against Ahmed, leading to his eventual arrest and conviction.

Notable Quote:

Stephane Javet (26:17): "I felt that I had enough evidence to prosecute him before court under the legal qualifications of incitement to commit an assassination."

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The Trial

The legal proceedings moved at an unprecedented pace, culminating in Ahmed's trial at the Tribunal Correctional de Nancy. Both Melanie and Ahmed were blindsided by the rapid trial schedule, leaving little time for preparation or understanding the charges against them.

During the trial, Melanie was forced to relive her trauma as her rape allegations were detailed in court. Ahmed's defense attorney, Naima Moudniadon, attempted to undermine Melanie's credibility, arguing that the lack of physical evidence made her claims questionable. However, Ahmed's contradictory statements during the trial weakened his defense, leading to his conviction.

Notable Quotes:

Naima Moudniadon (Defense Attorney): "Since the beginning of the MeToo movement, a lot of women are kind of like coming out of the woods with allegations of violence and rape and control and harassment."

Ahmed (Courtroom): "I am completely normal. I don't have any mental health condition, I have lots of friends, I'm not suffering from anything."

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Reflections and Conclusions

The episode concludes with reflections on the systemic failures that allowed Melanie's situation to escalate. The combination of domestic violence and cyber-enabled threats exposed significant gaps in how institutions handle such cases. Adelie emphasizes that while Melanie's case involved extreme measures, it reflects a broader, pervasive issue of normalized violence against women.

Notable Quote:

Adelie Posman Ponte (43:04): "This is not just a freak case. It is actually a very normal, basic case of violence against women that happens all over the world."

Carl and his team recognize the gender dynamics at play, noting that women are disproportionately targeted during moments of vulnerability and attempts to escape abusive relationships. The episode underscores the necessity for more robust and empathetic responses from law enforcement and societal institutions to protect and support victims of domestic abuse.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller (42:31): "The kind of darknet element, which is so scary, you know, a place which is supposed to be hidden, has actually acted more like a spotlight."

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Aftermath

Ahmed was convicted and sentenced to four years in prison, half of the potential ten-year penalty for his crimes. Despite the legal victory, Melanie and Romain continue to grapple with the emotional and financial aftermath, striving to rebuild their lives amidst lingering trauma and societal indifference.

Notable Quote:

Adelie Posman Ponte (40:45): "They were trying to move forward. They were trying to, like, rebuild their lives, basically."

The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the intersection between technology and personal lives, highlighting both the threats posed by digital anonymity and the potential for technology to aid in uncovering and preventing real-world violence.

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Looking Forward

In the next episode, "Knoxville, Tennessee," the series explores a case that begins as a mystery but evolves into a deeper investigation of the perpetrator's motives and culpability, continuing to illuminate the complex web of factors that lead to murder-for-hire schemes.

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Production Credits:
Hosted by Carl Miller.
Reporter: Adelie Posman Ponte.
Produced and written by Tom Wright.
Additional Production: Caroline Thornham, Jake Atajevic, Amalia Sorland, Megan Oyinka, Lina Chang.
Sound Design and Mixing: Nicholas Alexander.
Executive Producers: Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien, Craig Strachan, Marshall Louis, Erin O'Flaherty.

---

Conclusion

Episode 9 of "Kill List" masterfully intertwines a personal narrative with a broader societal critique, illustrating how individual lives can be entangled in the dark web's sinister operations. Through Melanie's story, the podcast sheds light on the urgent need for systemic change in addressing domestic violence and protecting vulnerable individuals from both physical and cyber threats.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandery subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandary in the Wandary app or on Apple Podcasts. Hey, it's Carl. Before we start, I just wanted to let you know that this episode includes an allegation of rape.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Wonder.

[Carl Miller]

It'S late October, five days before Halloween, and Melanie Vien is at home getting dressed for work. Her dark blonde hair is pulled back in a tight bun, and her fingers nervously fumble with the buttons on her crisp white uniform. She's 23 and works as a waitress at L'Excelsior, a posh brasserie where she serves customers lobster, steak and champagne. The restaurant sits on an elegant street corner in Nancy, France. It's a baroque small city with winding medieval passageways, an atmospheric setting for a story about the voice of one woman and how hard it was for her to be heard. About how institutions, the state, the police can be deaf even when the victim is doing everything they can to raise the alarm. It's a story that in some ways begins on this day in Melanie's flat. The reason she's so nervous is that she's resolved to break up with her boyfriend for good. Melanie is determined that before she leaves for her shift, she will tell Ahmed that it's all over between them. She faces him and tells him.

[Romain]

I'm fed up, it's over, I'm going to work and then I don't want to.

[Carl Miller]

See you ever again. It's taken every ounce of courage that Melanie has to say those words to Ahmet. And now that she has, she's scared that there could be consequences. This moment is the beginning of Melanie's journey onto the kill list. Someone with the alias Zongo54 goes on to pay $7,000 on a hitman for hire website to have her killed.

[Ahmed]

Would like you kill this woman who living in Nancy, France. This person hurt me a lot after killing her. Send me a picture of this death, please.

[Carl Miller]

They're graphic about how they want it to happen.

[Ahmed]

I'm very angry. I wanted, if it was possible, to strike her blood and cut her both feet.

[Romain]

My name is Carl Miller. Since 2020, I've been part of a team working in secret to stop people getting murdered.

[Carl Miller]

We broke into a scam murder for Hire website on the dark web.

[Romain]

Lurking inside, we saw with horror all the orders being placed. Real people being targeted, real money being paid. Hundreds of people have had their lives threatened like this.

[Carl Miller]

We call it the kill list.

[Romain]

So far, we've managed to help law enforce, arrest or convict more than 30 people for putting someone they know onto the kill list.

[Carl Miller]

With over 150 years of prison time being handed down, this series is about.

[Romain]

The people whose lives were changed forever by the kill list.

[Carl Miller]

People like Melanie, a young woman who's terrified that even after raising the alarm, nobody's listening.

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[Carl Miller]

From Wandery and Novel I'm Carl Miller and this is Kill List. It was a little over two years.

[Romain]

Earlier that Melanie and Ahmed first met.

[Carl Miller]

It was August 2018 and Melanie was a university student on her summer holidays, taking a break from studying in the city of Metz. Ahmed was five years older than her. His family is originally from Chad, and he was born on the Ivory Coast. He'd been living in France for five years when they first met. Melanie says Ahmed was charming and it sounds like he love bombed her. It was the first time Melanie had experienced that from a guy and he swept her off her feet. When she went back to university and Metz, Ahmed would travel to see her.

[Romain]

Once a week whilst they were long distance. Things were OK. But that changed nine months later. In April 2019.

[Carl Miller]

Melanie and Ahmed moved.

[Romain]

To Luxembourg together Melanie was doing an internship and they got an apartment together. Now she was alone with him in a foreign country, isolated from her parents. And Melanie says that Ahmed took advantage of that. He increasingly tried to take control of her. He would go through her phone, making sure that she wasn't contacting her family back home. Meneli describes it as like being in prison. She says she couldn't do anything without Ahmed's permission, and if she disobeyed him, there would be punishments. They moved back to Nancy, but things didn't improve. Shi and Ahmed would have explosive rows. He became increasingly violent towards, and Melanie.

[Carl Miller]

Alleges that he raped her. As often can happen in cases like this, Melanie did not report this alleged crime straight away. She felt trapped, didn't know where to go, and, she says was being victimized within a relationship that was violent. That's where Romain, a delivery driver at Menley's work, enters the picture. Romain is in his mid-20s, short, dark hair and a little rough around the edges. He's quiet, but also fiercely protective of those closest to him. And he's been worried about Melanie for a while. It seems like Romain had a crush on Melanie, but she always brushed him off. Then one day, Melanie was rushing around the corner where the brasserie is situated, late for work.

[Romain]

She just had an argument with Ahmed, and she had tears in her eyes. Romain took her to one side and asked her what was wrong. She started to tell him everything. Romain started to look out for Melanie. He showed her a care and a kindness that she'd been lacking for so long in her relationship with Ahmed. Roman made Menelie a promise. He told her he would show her that he wasn't like Ahmed.

[Carl Miller]

And so she said to herself, why not be with Romain together? Melanie and Romain began to plot a way for her to leave Ahmed once and for all. And one Saturday in October 2019, five days before Halloween, Melanie put the plan into action. At the restaurant, Melanie told Roman what happened next, the scene that started our story. Ahmed just plain refused to accept the breakup, and Melanie was scared of what might happen when she got home. Ahmed would be at work overnight, but he'd be back in the morning. Romain offered to come with her to stay the night. So when Ahmed comes home and sees that Melanie is with another man, he would finally realize that the relationship was over. A plan that you can't help but feel would inevitably precipitate a conflict of sorts. When Ahmed arrived back at the apartment the following morning, he found Melanie and Romain on the sofa. Predictably, an argument broke out, each man telling the other one to leave. Roman pushed Ahmed and Ahmed called the police. The police didn't do much to resolve the situation. They gave Rahman an informal caution, basically telling him off for his part of the argument. A few days later, Melanie went down to the police station and made the first of several official police complaints she would make against Ahmed. She accused him of domestic violence and rape, the one she says happened back when she was still with Ahmed. She feels that the police did not properly investigate. Instead, they organized for her to see a specialist psychologist. So Ahmed did not face any challenges. Instead, Melanie and Roman got an apartment together, away from Ahmed. But things didn't get better. Ahmed began to harass and stalk Melanie.

[Romain]

It started with threatening messages on Twitter.

[Ahmed]

You don't know what committing to someone means. You spent your entire life lying, lying, lying, lying to me. People like you end very, very badly. Think well on what you've done and all those bad things that you've done and remember this sentence. Reap what you saw.

[Romain]

Ahmed also sent Rahman messages, telling him that Ahmed knew where he lived and that he would come and kill him. Ahmed started coming to the restaurant where Melanie worked. He would circle around the block, waiting for her to finish her shifts.

[Carl Miller]

One day, he followed her home, insulting her. Melanie would have to ask her manager to help escort her back to her flat.

[Romain]

Ramar also started to see Ahmed around the town. While he was doing his food deliveries, Ahmed would be sitting on his own scooter, waiting outside the restaurants where Meneli worked.

[Carl Miller]

And he was always threatening to show up at their apartment. So Melanie and Romain decided to move out and find a new place. And she even got a dog for protection, a formidable husky that she named Moon. Ahmed's intimidations and harassment went on for months and months, but the police don't.

[Romain]

Seem to have done much to stop Ahmed. In fact, the small steps they did take seem to have backfired massively.

[Carl Miller]

What Melanie says happened, I still can't believe. The police called Ahmed down to the station. When he arrived, they gave him a verbal warning. But as they did so, Melanie says her complaint against Ahmed lay open in a file on the desk within Ahmed's sight. He was able to see Melanie and Rohman's new address, as well as photos Roman had taken of him as he stalked them, which Roman had handed to the police in confidence. Shortly after, Ahmed sent Rahman a new threat.

[Ahmed]

You son of a dog. I will find you now. I know where you live. You think you can take A picture of me. You're going to see what happens.

[Carl Miller]

Melanie says that she forwarded these messages to the police, and she says that as far as she knows, nothing was done.

[Romain]

She says that she's shocked and upset by how the police have handled everything from the initial rape allegation through to her further allegations of domestic abuse and Ahmed's campaign of stalking. Menley says that by this point in December 2020, she's terrified to leave the house. She's scared that when she walks her dog or on the way to work, Ahmed could appear from out of the shadows.

[Carl Miller]

And it's at precisely this moment that me and my team come across the kill order demanding Melanie's death. Because Melanie doesn't speak English and I don't speak French, we need the help of a local reporter to get word to her that we think she's in danger.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

She's very, very distressed, just so you know. So we're gonna have to be very gentle with her, and I think she will literally freak out.

[Carl Miller]

Adelie Pozman Ponte is a French journalist based in Paris who signed on to help us. She helped set up the first call with Melanie so we could break the news.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

When I had her on the phone, there was a man next to her. I don't know who this man is. I don't know if he will be with her on the call or in the room, but crossing fingers, it's not the man who asked her to be killed, but she's definitely been a victim of domestic abuse and violence before. From how distressed she sounds, it seems pretty obvious.

[Carl Miller]

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[Carl Miller]

Hello there Melanie, can you hear us? Melanie and Adelie look at me through a screen sitting on a sofa in Melanie's apartment. The people on this call masks cover both of their faces, so the only bit of Melanie I can actually make out are her eyes, which widen as she hears Adile translate my warning.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

So she says that she doesn't really know what the Dark Web is, but her boyfriend apparently knows what it is and she's pretty freaked out about what.

[Carl Miller]

We'Re telling her as sitting next to Melanie is her boyfriend, Rama. We always try to do our best to make sure the victim is alone when we break the news. It's often someone close to the victim that is behind the kill order. But very quickly it becomes obvious that Melanie isn't worried about Romain. It's Ahmet she's worried about.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

She says in the past she's put official complaints with the police against her ex boyfriend who was violent with her and who stoked her for a while and sent her death threats. She says she has a pretty quiet life otherwise and she doesn't think of anyone else who might be thinking about hurting her.

[Carl Miller]

Melanie wants our help because she's scared the police won't believe her. Maybe they'll take her more seriously if it's coming from a media organization. And of course we're happy to help.

[Romain]

That's why we're here.

[Carl Miller]

From here, our local reporter Adelie picked up the story.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

So I called up the local police station in Nancy and you know, it was a Saturday afternoon, so they didn't seem particularly prepared to take on the information I got passed around from one officer to the other until finally I was able to get someone on the phone to report the crime. They thanked me for the information and they said they would look into it, but to be honest, I wasn't very relieved. And you know, police In France, like a lot of police forces, they don't have the best reputation when it comes to dealing with domestic violence. In 2020, when this story was happening, less than 1% of all rapes and attempted rapes resulted in a conviction. So I felt it was very important to keep in touch with Melanie regularly. I mean, she's been in a very precarious position, and if she's right about Ahmed being behind the order, then she has every reason to feel unsafe.

[Romain]

It's really understandable. I mean, it's terrifying. And it feels, you know, that Ahmed here is overwhelmingly the obvious suspect. I mean, Melanie's got absolutely no doubt in her mind at all. But on the other hand, and in fairness to the police, we've seen in other cases where actually that suspicion can be really ironclad and also entirely wrong.

[Carl Miller]

What's needed is a comprehensive, proactive, competent police investigation. And what we found again and again all over the world is whether you get that or not basically depends on who picks up the case. You need someone competent, determined, sufficiently resourced to actually investigate and solve the crime. And Melanie's case, well, that lands on the desk of a man called Stephane Javet.

[Stephane Javet]

I am deputy prosecutor in Nancy at the Public Prosecution Office in France.

[Carl Miller]

Prosecutors like Stephane Javet also have an investigatory role. So he's not just making the case in court, he also has a role leading the investigation. And it turns out that he was already investigating Ahmed completely independently of us. So, Adili, what did he tell you about that investigation?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

So, Monsieur Javet, the prosecutor, told me that the French police had already opened an urgent investigation into Ahmed just weeks before we contacted them. So literally, a couple of weeks before I spoke with Melanie, an alarm went off inside the French police. It's this internal system which they have that flags intelligence when there's a threat to life. And very quickly, the information got to Stephan.

[Stephane Javet]

Of course, I took it very seriously because there was a potential threat of harm to human life, and it is my job to take this kind of threat seriously.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

The intelligence Stefan Javet had received was that somebody by the alias Zongo54 had been posting publicly on dark web forums complaining that they'd been scammed out of €3,000 on a hitman for Hire site, trying to have a woman in Nancy killed publicly.

[Romain]

So this wouldn't be our websites that we were monitoring.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

No. So Zongo54 has been going on other public forums being like, I'm trying to get this woman killed. I've paid a lot of money, and they're not doing it. What's going on? He's literally doing, like, a customer complaint. Huh.

[Romain]

So what does Stefan Javet do about this?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

It seems like somebody saw these public forum posts and they decided to report it to the French police. But Jave only had the username Zongo to go on. He had no idea who Zongo was and who they were trying to harm. He called up a team of digital investigators. The police were able to track down Zongo's IP address, which made it possible.

[Stephane Javet]

To easily locate the likely user. The likely user in Nancy, France, and it was Mr. Hamed Ibrahim.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

So Jave knew that someone on the Internet was bragging about having committed a serious crime, and he could trace that crime back to Ahmed, but they still didn't know who the victim was. Unlike any of the private messages that we had had access to, Ahmed's forum post didn't identify Melanie as the target by name. But when he looked through Ahmed's file, Chavez noticed something. It was Melanie's rape complaint.

[Stephane Javet]

I and the police, and in this case also immediately made a connection with an ongoing procedure for rape.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Javet says that at this point, the police quickly put Ahmed, as well as Melanie and Romain under observation.

[Stephane Javet]

There were some discreet surveillances, and Romain.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Actually told me later on that he'd seen a car that he thought was undercover police sitting in the street for several days. But nobody told Melanie anything about the threats. For three weeks. The police knew that Ahmed was threatening her life, and Melanie was completely in the dark about it. It was only when we got in touch with her that she first realized what was happening.

[Carl Miller]

It seems utterly bizarre to me that they didn't inform Melanie about what they thought was a credible, serious threat against her life. What does Javet have to say about that?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

What Javet told me was that he can understand that Melanie feels that the police should have intervened sooner. But he also says that they didn't have enough evidence to be able to arrest Ahmet. And the messages we provided were actually the missing piece in the puzzle.

[Stephane Javet]

Your assistance was appreciated because you gave us two pieces of information we didn't have yet.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

What we had that the police didn't were the private messages between Zongo and the hitman for hiresight, the kill order itself. And we had access to the payment made for the hit. These two pieces of information proved that Zongo was trying to have Melanie murdered. It showed the method by which he wanted her killed, the motive behind the crime, and finally the payment that was made to make the murder happen. Once they had all of that information, the police were able to move quickly.

[Stephane Javet]

I felt that I had enough evidence to prosecute him before court under the legal qualifications of incitement to commit an assassination. And the penalty for this offence is 10 years.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

When the police search Ahmed's home, they find more evidence that they say points to Ahmed planning a murder.

[Stephane Javet]

Police made a search of Mr. Ibrahim's apartment and it was found a 35 centimeter long kitchen knife hidden in a bag. Moreover, police officers discovered a file named People to Be Eliminated in which we could find photographs of Mrs. Villon and her companion.

[Romain]

Having a file entitled People to be Eliminated doesn't imply, at least to me, Adelie, that we're dealing with a criminal mastermind here.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

No, I think we can all agree on that. And I think Melanie was quite baffled by that information herself. It really made her laugh. They also found another piece of evidence that show how Ahmed paid for the.

[Stephane Javet]

Hit, according to which we understood that he had a few months ago taken out a bank credit of €3,600.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

And so with all that evidence, Stephane Javert is able to act on it and he's able to put Ahmed on trial. And they do so in double quick time.

[Carl Miller]

So, three weeks after we first contacted Melanie, and just two days after Ahmed was arrested, Melanie is getting ready to come face to face in court with the man who paid to have her murder. It.

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[Romain]

So Adelai, this case raises so many questions, maybe the most important, and it's one that I wrestle with a lot. What would have happened, do you think, if we hadn't have stepped in? The police investigation was already there. Would they simply have caught him on their own?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

I think that's really hard to say. I think the information that we gave was definitely a tipping point for them as well. And I'm not really sure if or how they would have been able to get it. And I think there were already several complaints from Melanie for harassment, stalking, rape. I feel like something could have been done there. But it also feels like what we're seeing here is two different kinds of crimes that the police aren't always good at investigating. Domestic violence on the one hand, and then crimes on the dark web. And in this case, we've got these two things coming together in a way that's really exposing a failure of policing. And I think it's really interesting that such a wild story on the dark web that's taking us all over the world actually helps shine a light on all the systemic failings of one country, one police force, one state, to take us deep down into the eastern part of France.

[Carl Miller]

Do you think the police could have acted sooner to protect Melanie?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Well, I think you could really tell that Melanie was really upset by all of this. I mean, amongst the details that she gave me is that the police wasn't able to tell her anything to update her on any of her complaints. They didn't even put a restraining order on Ahmed, I don't think. And actually, within the few months that she had been complaining to the police about him, he actually moved houses even closer to where Melanie lived. But, you know, Melanie felt really scared about just going to work, walking her dog. She carried pepper spray. She really struck me as someone who was very vulnerable and that the state and the police were really letting down.

[Romain]

Was it your sense that Ahmed was spiraling out of control? Because this kind of dynamic of a former spouse who's lost control, lost the person, and is now engaging in a series of escalating and increasingly more violent, perhaps also more desperate, attempts to get them back? That's one we've seen a kind of shocking and saddening number of times in the kill list so far. Is that broadly, do you think, what you were seeing there with Ahmed and Melanie?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Yeah, although I think I would put a bit of nuance on that. I don't think it's right to paint men who commit domestic violence as spiraling out of control. I don't think they're out of control of the situation. I think they're very much acting and behaving in a way that has been condoned by society and by institutions at large for centuries. They think they're in their right to do that. They think they're in their right to act that way with the women they have or have had relationships with. And I think neither the police, nor the justice system, nor the media pretty much anywhere, but definitely not in France, have held them accountable. I don't think he's piling out of control. I think he wants to remain in control in a place where Melanie is taking over control of her life. And that's a really important distinction to make.

[Romain]

It's always felt weird to me that it ends up in a strange way, being our responsibility to try and sort out the ruinous aftermaths of these often messy, often very violent relationships gone wrong.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Yeah. And I think the police could have intervened a lot sooner in that case. There were many, many instances where they could have responded to Melanie's complaint, you know, but on the flip side of all of this is that we were able to keep Melanie safe. And I think at the end of the day, that's really what matters, you know? And Ahmed did, in the end, face serious consequences for his actions. It's late at night, past 10pm, when Ahmed's case is finally heard at the Tribunal Correctional de Nancy. It's a modern building shaped like a half moon and Ahmed's one of the five cases being heard in court on that day. Melanie Roumans have been sat in the courtroom for hours in order to finally see justice be done. The whole thing has been a whirlwind. Melanie only found out the trial was happening the day before and nobody explained to her what exactly Ahmed had been arrested for. Melanie's not sure. She's here because of the rape allegation, either stalking and harassment complaints she's filed or the murder for hire allegation. The whole thing feels incredibly rushed and she's never been to court before, so she's understandably nervous. Questions are racing around her mind. What is Ahmed going to say? How is he going to argue his case? Will they believe him or will they take her seriously? Melanie is not the only one grappling with these sort of questions. Ahmed's lawyer has been trying to work out how exactly to defend him. Naima Moudniadon is an experienced defence attorney of over 30 years. But like Melanie, she only found out about the trial at the last minute. She had to read all the case documents and then only had 20 minutes to speak to Ahmet to work out what his defense could possibly be in the face of all the evidence.

[Romain]

I mean, this seems, it's moving at light speed, like, is this normal in France for the legal process to be happening at this kind of pace?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

It can be. It's called an immediate appearance comparison immediate. And it's a kind of fast track justice that can be requested by the prosecution to a judge. It happens a lot and it's a controversial practice because it's arguable whether you can really do justice that quickly. It's really unfair on victims like Melanie who get dragged into court with virtually no notice. But to be honest, it's also unfair on defendants who don't get to choose or meet their lawyers who don't get a lot of time to prepare the defence.

[Romain]

So what are the circumstances then, when you do get tried in this way?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

So usually it's when the evidence is really clear cut. There's no real way to counter the fact that you've done what you've done. Ahmed has already admitted to the police that he went onto the hitman for Hiresight. But he says he never intended for Melanie to get hurt and it was simply curiosity on his part. Naima Mountain, his lawyer, knows that explanation isn't going to fly. But she has found something that she thinks might help Ahmed's case. The police gave him a psychological evaluation and the psychologist who assessed him has concluded that he may be suffering from a psychiatric condition indicating isolation and personality problems. We don't know exactly what, but something that could help explain or mitigate his actions. When she stands up in court, Naima Mounierdon tries to rely on this report. She paints a picture of Ahmed as a troubled loner who couldn't fully comprehend what he was doing and therefore, in his mind, he never really intended to harm Melanie. Unfortunately for his lawyer, Ahmed doesn't seem to have got the memo. And when the judge calls on him to speak, Ahmed completely undoes his own defence. He tells the judge, after everything has been said and done, the psychologist was wrong. I am completely normal. I don't have any mental health condition, I have lots of friends, I'm not suffering from anything. And what they do want is not to be charged with a heavy sentence. He speaks for about 20 minutes and by the end, Naima Moudni Adon, his lawyer, says he's completely undone everything she's been trying to do to defend him. At one point, Ahmed even tries to address Melanie directly, but her lawyer cuts him off and tells him not to speak to her. And things even get worse. Melanie's allegation of rape against Ahmed is read out in court and in graphic detail. For Melanie, that is just too much to take. Melanie leaves the courtroom in tears and goes to the bathroom to get some air. Can you imagine that in seven days she's gone from thinking the police would never step in to help her to having her most personal and traumatic memories read out in court. And that comes with a lot of scrutiny. Ahmed's lawyer is quick to cast doubt on Melanie's allegations of rape and domestic violence. Naima Mountain argues that it's only Melanie's word against Ahmed. There's no medical certificate and no other physical evidence to prove what Melanie's alleging Naima Mudniadon makes other claims as well. She says that since the beginning of the MeToo movement, a lot of women are kind of like coming out of the woods with allegations of violence and rape and control and harassment. She says that during their relationship, Melanie was studying, she was working, she did an internship. She had the freedom to come and go as she pleased. And so why should anybody believe her when she says Ahmed was being violent and controlling?

[Romain]

Well, this is all quite uncomfortable listening, isn't it? Because on the one hand, Ahmed's lawyer is doing her job. But on the other hand, in all our discussions with Melanie, I don't think we've ever had any reason to really disbelieve anything that she's said here.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Yeah, why would she go through the trouble of going to the police and putting that out there in the public sphere? Like, why would she go through the trouble of being called in court for a false accusation, which she's not getting a lot out of it, is she, in that situation?

[Carl Miller]

No. And it's important for us to remember that Melanie's complaint of rape was one of the first complaints that she made to the police. So was Ahmed actually ever charged for that complaint?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

No, not as far as we know. Ahmed was never charged for the rape allegation. I don't believe that ever went to court. And I think the lack of follow up investigation is really a problem in that sort of cases, especially because it was only after she and Ahmed broke up that Melanie felt able to go to the police and try to hold him accountable.

[Romain]

So where do we stand now then? What happened to Ahmed?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

So the silver lining to all of this is that Ahmed did in fact get convicted. He did face justice. He was found guilty of trying to have Melanie killed and sentenced to four years in prison.

[Carl Miller]

What do you think about that? You know, I mean, is that enough?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Yeah. And especially as Stephan Javet told us, he could get up to 10 years. That's really half of it. But, you know, it also depends on how you look at it, because in France it's very rare for somebody to be given prison time for their first offense. And on paper at least, you know, the dark Web murder for hire plot was the first time Ahmed was ever convicted of any crime. So to get five year sentence in that context means the judge took it extremely seriously and thought he was really threatening.

[Romain]

How is Melanie now? Had she been able to move on, to begin to heal in the wake of all of this?

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

The last time I spoke to Melanie, she seemed to be really struggling her and Romain were still struggling with the aftermath of that case. They were struggling for money. They were trying to work overtime to make ends meet. And she told me she really didn't want to think about what had happened to Ahmed anymore, whether he was out of prison, whether he wasn't. She just didn't want to dwell on that particular aspect of her life. They were trying to move forward. They were trying to, like, rebuild their lives, basically.

[Romain]

You know, when I first started doing this, I never thought that we would be dealing with the cases that we have done. I never thought that we would basically have so many cases that had to do with broken relationships, with questions of power and control and domestic violence.

[Carl Miller]

And you would be blind if you couldn't see there's a gender dimension running throughout so many of these different cases. So many of the targets on the kill list ended up being women, and so many of the people that put them onto that list ended up being men. In almost every case, the moment when the target is placed on the kill list is the moment when usually she is stepping away from that relationship and trying to set herself free.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

And I think that sense of entitlement, of they are within their right to contest a woman leaving them, is very much part of how toxic relationships work and what patriarchy as a whole relies onto, like, feeling entitled to women being your possession, basically. And you can have them do whatever you want, and when they stop doing that, it makes you mad. And I think that can show up even in, like, smaller ways than the very freak scenario we're seeing here.

[Romain]

Mm.

[Carl Miller]

And I suppose that's one of the ironies, really, of the kill list, is that our investigation has been, you know, into the darknet, into this strange and personal and scary space. But in doing that, it's kind of shone a light on the society that we all live in. The irony is that the kind of darknet element, which is so scary, you know, a place which is supposed to be hidden, has actually acted more like a spotlight. And here it's directed our gaze at a story that we probably wouldn't have seen because, tragically, it's too normal.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

I think it says a lot about how powerless women can be in the face of domestic violence. This is a bit of a freak case. You know, when I first got the initial call about this story, I was like, what the hell is this? What is going on? A website on the dark web, Hitman for Hire, which is actually a scam. Like, this seemed like a story that's completely out there. Like, really, it was the stuff of movies. And I really didn't know when I was coming into. And then when I got to meet Melanie in her apartment with her dog and her boyfriend in Nancy, she was so young, early 20s waitress. She felt so vulnerable. And it took me a while actually to really realize that this really kind of freak scenario of a man going on the dark web getting a loan to hire a hitman to kill his ex girlfriend was actually a story of domestic violence and control. And that type of story, if you take out the hitman element, is actually incredibly common. And I think it's really important to put this case in the perspective of how normalized violence against women and violence within relationships is. This is not just a freak case. It is actually a very normal, basic case of violence against women that happens all over the world.

[Carl Miller]

Next time on Kill List. We're in Knoxville, Tennessee for a case that starts as a whodunit and ends as a why done it. One where we begin to question just how guilty the perpetrator truly is.

[Adelie Posman Ponte]

Would like it to be a road rage or carjacking gone wrong. Don't take the target out at home. Thank you for calling the FBI. The victim here in Knoxville, I don't know what team she's on anymore, so I'm not sure where her allegiances lie at this point.

[Carl Miller]

I think that he's way more than just this being what he's known for. I just want this to not be the final sentence in his story. If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wandri app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wandery and novel.

[Romain]

This is Kill List.

[Carl Miller]

Kill List is hosted by me, Carl Miller. The reporter for this episode is Adelie Posman Ponte and it was produced and written by our series producer, Tom Wright. Kill List is also produced by Caroline Thornham and Jake Atajevic. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sorland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lina Chang.

[Romain]

Additional research from Chris Montero for Wandery.

[Carl Miller]

Our senior producer is Mandy Gorenstein. Fact checking by Fendor Fulton.

[Romain]

Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolfe for novel.

[Carl Miller]

Sarah Mathers is our managing producer and Callum Plews is our senior managing producer for Wandery. Original music by Skylar Gerdman and Martin Linnebell. Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornham.

[Romain]

Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander for novel.

[Carl Miller]

Willard Foxton is creative director of development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for novel. Executive producers for Wandery are Marshall Louis and Erin O'Flaherty.