Yura | 5

Summary

Kill List - Episode 5: Yura

Release Date: October 22, 2024
Host: Wondery | Novel (Carl Miller)

---

Introduction

In Episode 5 of Kill List, titled "Yura," tech journalist Carl Miller delves deeper into the dark underbelly of the darknet, uncovering a sophisticated murder-for-hire operation orchestrated through a secretive website. This episode explores the intricate web of deception, collaboration with federal agencies, and the relentless pursuit to unmask the mastermind behind the sinister "Kill List."

---

The Kill Order and Initial Investigation

The episode opens with Carl Miller receiving a new kill order targeting an individual in Knoxville, Tennessee. The nature of the request suggests a "road rage or carjacking gone wrong," with specific instructions to avoid targeting the victim at home.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [00:00]: "A new kill order comes in. The target lives in Knoxville, Tennessee. Would like it to be a road rage or carjacking gone wrong. Don't take the target out at home."

Miller and his team swiftly disseminate the information to their contacts, ensuring the FBI is alerted. Their prior efforts have led to significant arrests, including Ron Ilgenspakane, indicating a pattern of successful interventions.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [00:46]: "This time the FBI act on our warning immediately. They speed to the victim's house and arrest a suspect, her husband with another target safe."

---

Collaboration with the FBI

As more kill orders surface, the FBI begins to take a proactive role, offering to handle all cases both domestically and internationally. This collaboration sees a surge in arrests, garnering widespread media attention from prominent outlets like The Washington Post, The Guardian, CNN, and the BBC.

Notable Quote:

Angie Hicks [01:20]: "Investigators say this woman, Deanna Marie Stinson, tried hiring a hitman."

However, this increased attention also brings underlying tensions. Carl expresses concern over a particular individual he wishes to remain hidden—Yura, the administrator of the Hitman for Hire website.

---

Uncovering the Hitman Website and Yura

The narrative shifts to Yura, the elusive figure behind the murder-for-hire platform. Miller highlights the vulnerabilities in their investigation, emphasizing the importance of maintaining access to the site without alerting Yura.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [03:15]: "We don't know his real name, but he has an alias, Yura. It would take so little for Yura to spot just one of these news stories, and the game might be up."

Through undercover operations, the team interacts with individuals like Scott Quinn Burkett, who unknowingly communicate with an FBI agent posing as a hitman. This ruse leads to Burkett's arrest, showcasing the FBI's effective strategies.

Notable Quote:

Scott Quinn Burkett [06:41]: "Hi. You got the pictures?"

---

Tracing Yura's Location

Miller and his team, along with support from private investigator Kuzman—a former French Foreign Legionnaire with deep ties in Eastern European law enforcement—focus on uncovering Yura's true identity and location. Clues from hacked email accounts and Bitcoin transactions point towards Romania as a potential base of operations.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [26:33]: "He has a bunch of tabs open, including a Google page. On this screenshot is a clue that lets us get a fix on Jura's location. The language on all the tabs, the Google URL, they're all linked to one country. Romania."

---

Involvement of Kuzman and Eastern European Intelligence

Kuzman's investigation reveals the complexities of tracing Yura, especially with potential protection from state actors. Discussions with former intelligence officials suggest that Yura might be operating under the aegis of Russian authorities, who exploit cybercriminals for their purposes.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [30:42]: "If Yura really is a government asset, the prospect of locating him might actually become impossible."

This revelation underscores the challenges faced by Miller and his team, as they navigate the murky waters of international cybercrime and intelligence collaborations.

---

The FBI Meeting and Progress

On September 23rd, Carl meets with FBI agents in Times Square, New York. The agents express confidence in their strategy to take over the kill order site, bringing them closer to identifying Yura.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [35:56]: "They have found the server IP that is hosting his sites."

Despite initial optimism, the investigation hits a snag as the FBI transfers the case to the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), leaving Miller uncertain about future developments.

---

Setback and Conclusion

Six months post-meeting, Miller receives distressing news from Romania—a massive police raid signals a potential breakthrough, but the timing leaves many questions unanswered. The episode concludes with unresolved tensions, setting the stage for future investigations.

Notable Quote:

Carl Miller [38:06]: "If we're going to convince the FBI to take action, we need to track down Jura's location."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 5 of Kill List masterfully blends investigative journalism with real-time collaboration with law enforcement, painting a vivid picture of the challenges in combating darknet crimes. Through meticulous research and gripping narratives, Carl Miller brings listeners closer to understanding the intricate dance between investigators and elusive cybercriminals like Yura.

---

Credits:

• Host: Carl Miller
• Producers: Caroline Thornham, Tom Wright
• Investigative Support: Kuzman Meyer, Chris Monteiro
• Additional Research: Anik Mossou, Fuka Postma, Brenna Smith at Bellingcat
• Sound Design: Nicholas Alexander
• Executive Producers: Sean Glynn, Austin Mitchell, Max O'Brien, Craig Strachan for Novel; George Lavender, Marshall Louis, Jen Sargent for Wandery

Produced by Wondery | Novel.

---

For those intrigued by this episode, Kill List offers a riveting exploration of life-and-death stakes in the digital age. Subscribe to Wondery or your preferred podcast platform to stay updated on this unfolding true story.

Transcript

[Carl Miller]

Wandary subscribers can binge all episodes of Chaolist early and ad free. Join Wandri in the Wandri app or on Apple podcasts. A new kill order comes in. The target lives in Knoxville, Tennessee. Would like it to be a road rage or carjacking gone wrong. Don't take the target out at home. The user goes by the alien Boniface. They want the murder to happen today. Now that the FBI have arrested Ron Ilgenspakane. My team and I are talking to them every couple of days.

[Tom Wright]

When this new kill order comes in.

[Carl Miller]

We quickly send it to our contacts in Spokane who forward the information to their colleagues in Tennessee and vouch for us that we're not crazy. This isn't some mad story. This time the FBI act on our warning immediately. They speed to the victim's house and arrest a suspect, her husband with another target safe. The FBI tell us they have a proposal. They want to take on all of our cases, both within the US and around the world. Suddenly the arrests start flooding in.

[Angie Hicks]

Investigators say this woman, Deanna Marie Stinson, tried hiring a hitman.

[Carl Miller]

37 year old Kelly Harper was arrested on Friday. A former Thorn Apple Kellogg teacher accused of hiring someone to try and kill his wife.

[Tom Wright]

Each arrest is a another person out of danger.

[Carl Miller]

Federal investigators were able to track him down, connecting his online bitcoin transfers with his personal accounts. But arrests also attract attention. Our cases make the Washington Post, the Guardian, cnn, the BBC. Dark Web Murder conspiracy, love affairs gone terribly wrong. Lurid fantasies spilled out in the courtroom. And there is another detail that is showing up in more and more reporting. The wife was informed of the plot by the crew of an unnamed international news organization investigating the Dark Web. There are headlines like Journalists uncover Wisconsin Women's Murder for Hire plot FBI says and Reporters help Feds Foil Murder for.

[Tom Wright]

Hire Plot Again, my team and I haven't been named yet. But with arrests popping up around the world, other journalists are starting to connect the dots. And all this attention is making me nervous because there's one person out there I desperately want to stay hidden from.

[Carl Miller]

The administrator of the Hitman for Hire website.

[Yura]

I'm assigning a hitman to do the job. It will take about one week or so.

[Carl Miller]

He, if it is a he is lurking in the shadows replying to every order.

[Yura]

Normal killing by gunshot is $5,000 stringing.

[Tom Wright]

His customers along with false promises of death and destruction.

[Yura]

We will make sure by all means he will not survive.

[Carl Miller]

We don't know his real name, but he has an alias, Yura. It would take so little for jure to spot just one of these news stories, and the game might be up. With a simple tweak of the site security settings, he could shut us out, and that would be calamitous. Every law enforcement investigation relies on our access alone.

[Matt Murphy]

Imagine a world where stories come alive, where every word paints a vivid picture in your mind. That's the power of Audible. Dive into thrilling tales like the Book of Murder, A Prosecutor's Journey Through Love and Death, by former senior deputy district attorney and current ABC News legal analyst Matt Murphy. Experience the gripping narrative of a seasoned prosecutor as he navigates the complexities of love and death in the criminal justice system. And whether you're commuting, working out, or simply relaxing at home, Audible transforms your everyday moments into extraordinary adventures. With thousands of audiobooks at your fingertips, there's always more to imagine when you listen. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.comwondry or text wondry to 500 500. That's audible.comwondry or text wondry to 500500.

[Angie Hicks]

Why get all your holiday decorations delivered through Instacart? Because maybe you only bought two wreaths but have 12 windows. Or maybe your toddler got very eager with the Advent calendar. Or maybe the inflatable snowman didn't make it through the snowstorm. Or maybe the twinkle lights aren't twinkling. Whatever the reason, this season, Instacart's here for hosts and their whole holiday haul. Get decorations from the Home Depot, CVS and more through Instacart and enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.

[Carl Miller]

From Wandering A Novel. I'm Carl Miller. This is Kill List, Episode 5 Jura On May 19, 2021, Scott Quinn Burkett gets a WhatsApp message. Scott lives in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles, where he works as a software technician. He's 24 and 6 foot tall, with long brown hair and a straggly beard. On his phone is a message from a number he doesn't recognize. They've sent photographs, a few grainy shots of a young woman walking through a Walmart, and an instruction call me. Around 10pm Scott calls the number.

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

Hi. You got the pictures?

[Carl Miller]

Yep.

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

That's. That's her, right?

[Carl Miller]

Yeah, that's her. I was actually surprised to get that through WhatsApp.

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

I know we switch things up every once in a while.

[Carl Miller]

We know this because we have a transcript of their conversation. The words are read by actors. They talk about the practicalities of a murder. Payment details, timing, proof.

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

Good. All right. So my understanding is what has to get done is this has to get done. We're looking at some kind of accident or robbery to have gone wrong, right?

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. That way it doesn't get traced. Scott also wants proof once the job is done. Proof of the tattoo on her. One of her forearms.

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

Okay.

[Tom Wright]

What?

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

Is there any part of it so you want to see? Do you want a video of her not breathing? What do you. What do you want to see?

[Carl Miller]

Scott thinks for a moment. Um, a picture of the corpse and a picture of the tattoo to make. To verify.

[Scott Quinn Burkett]

Okay.

[Carl Miller]

Scott Quinn Burkett doesn't know it, but the hitman he's been speaking to is an FBI agent. Scott had already paid $14,000 to Jura's website for the murder of a woman he's been dating. We sent the FBI the kill order, but they need evidence that Burkett is behind it, so they make contact directly with his target. They tell her to go to the supermarket and have someone discreetly take photos of her shopping. They also tell her to go down to the river near the local zoo and meet with a forensic photographer.

[Faye]

It's like this big naturey park area.

[Carl Miller]

That's Scott's ex girlfriend. We're calling her Faye.

[Faye]

The whole walk to where they want to take these pictures, they're making these dark jokes about faking my death. Like, what even is going on?

[Carl Miller]

The photographer leads Faye to a spot near the water.

[Faye]

Over where, like, all the bushes and trees and rocks and sticks and stuff are. She's telling me, lay down. Lay down and pretend you're dead. It's, like, wet and muddy, and there's, like, dead leaves and stuff. And she's telling me, you know, stick your arm out. And they have my arm, like, spread out to my side with my wrist facing up where you can see my tattoo on my forearm.

[Carl Miller]

The proof that it's actually Faye.

[Faye]

They showed me the picture. You can see the photographer's, like, shoe in the corner of the picture. And they start making a joke about how it makes it look more real, like, that's the hitman's foot in the picture. And they're, like, laughing about it. And I'm just like, I just laid in the mud for you, so you can pretend to be my hitman and pretend I'm dead. Like, why are you laughing?

[Carl Miller]

After receiving the first set of pictures of Faye, the ones in the supermarket, Scott agrees to wire the FBI another thousand dollars via Western Union and they agree on an alibi of where Scott will be when the murder is supposed to come. A Beverly Hills man has been arrested in an alleged murder for hire plot to kill a woman he used to date. 24 year old Scott Burkett was taken into custody after he allegedly sent thousands of dollars in Bitcoin to arrange the murder of a woman he dated.

[Angie Hicks]

Briefly.

[Carl Miller]

Scott Quinn Burkett is arrested by the FBI and charged with the use of interstate facilities to commit murder for hire. They search his house and his red Mercedes. Scott had met Faye online in the summer of 2020 through an anime Facebook fan page. In October, she flew to Los Angeles to meet him for the first time. According to court documents, Fey alleges that Scott was sexually aggressive towards her and pressured her into having sex. After she returned home, she ended their relationship, but it was hard to break off contact entirely. They had lots of mutual friends, were part of the same online community of anime fans, and Scott would still message Faye across her different social media profiles. In April 2021, Fey's sister intervened and told him to stop. Only eight days later, Scott placed the kill order. I'd like it to look like an accident, but robbery gone wrong may work better so long as she's dead. I learn about Scott's arrest after it makes the news. On balance, I'm glad the FBI are doing what they're doing. But even so, the tactics they use create a risk for us and especially our access to the site. What if Scott had gotten suspicious when the undercover FBI agent messaged him? He easily could have gone back to the site to let Jura know that something strange was going on. We could have ended up completely locked out. Then we intercept a message on the assassination site that's clearly about us, but it's not from Scott Burkett.

[Yura]

How the fuck did the information on.

[Carl Miller]

This order reach Indian police?

[Yura]

How is this accessed by an investigative journalist?

[Carl Miller]

This was from a case we reported to the Indian embassy before we started passing international cases to the FBI. It seems likely that instead of arresting the person behind the kill order, and I can't believe I'm saying this, the Indian police actually informed them about our investigation. And now that customer is lodging a complaint with Jurassic the Indian police. They have jeopardized lives by doing this. Like, I can see absolutely no fucking reason why you would, if not not divulge the information itself to the perpetrator. To tell them its source is absolutely fucking madness. Absolute madness for them to have done that.

[Kuzman]

Crazy. Not only is it very possible that if Yura didn't know already. He'll find out about us. This is a sign of it starting to interfere with his customers.

[Carl Miller]

All of this makes one thing clear. Our investigation is living on borrowed time. Right now, the FBI are looking at each case in isolation. To end this story, we need to persuade the FBI to see the bigger picture.

[Tom Wright]

And to do that, we need to gather as much information as we can about Jura, his shadowy empire of scams and fake hitmen, and track him down.

[Carl Miller]

We get support from Uncommon Goods. Spark something uncommon this holiday. With just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. It's a spot for incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list. Uncommon Goods has products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the US Meaning you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. So for me, I bought a gift for a friend who loves fruit. And the gift are these small woolen things that you put on the top of bananas to apparently keep them fresh for longer. Sounds a bit od. I mean, definitely uncommon, but I genuinely think he'll love them. And with every purchase you make and Uncommon Goods, they'll give back $1 to a nonprofit partner of your choice. They've donated more than $3 million to date. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com list. That's UncommonGoods.com L I S T for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer on common goods. We're all out of the ordinary.

[Angie Hicks]

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the difference between done and done well. Hire high quality Certified [e-mail].

[Carl Miller]

Yura.

[Yura]

Yes?

[Carl Miller]

Your name is Jura.

[Yura]

What do you think?

[Carl Miller]

When Chris Monteiro first broke into the assassination site, he also hacked into Jura's email account. Yura figured out someone was in there and started sending messages to his own email for Chris to see. He assumed Chris was a police officer.

[Yura]

I know you are law enforcement, but I talk to you because I want to show you that this is a scam.

[Carl Miller]

So an expensive investigation is not required right away. Jure admitted that there are no hitmen.

[Yura]

You don't say anything. I feel like talking. You have the chance to find out more about me. I'm not playing with you. I just want to tell you more about me so that maybe you quit the investigation as if it is not worth it.

[Carl Miller]

Jura told Chris that he's an ethnic Albanian, but also says that piece of information won't help track him down. He says he's somewhere in the European Union, but won't say where. He dances on the edge of revealing something, but never quite does. I assume this isn't your first scam. Yura sends a smiling emoji.

[Yura]

I tried various things before, like credit card fraud, etc. But I don't like it. I saw that there is a niche in the murder sites online and there was no credible site.

[Carl Miller]

Yura's surprisingly candid about his operation. He even offers a justification for it.

[Yura]

I am frauding criminals who want to kill people. Basically. If I would not deceive them by taking their money and talking them into waiting for some murder that doesn't happen, they could do it by other means. Like if they don't find a murder for hireside, they could hire a local gang member or maybe they could try to do the murder themselves.

[Carl Miller]

Yura claims he's actually doing a good thing. He's helping to stop would be murderers by depleting their financial resources.

[Yura]

This could make the customer think that hitmen are not to be trusted. In the end, he would not hire a hitman in real life either after this because he would be afraid of being scammed again. So the hitman for higher fraud sounds like a great thing. Good morally.

[Tom Wright]

The point that Jura is making here is one that we've long realized. The site he's created does expose dangers that would otherwise remain hidden. Jure himself, however, has done nothing to raise the alarm or warn the targets that they're in danger.

[Carl Miller]

But if we could take Yura out of the picture, the website could be controlled instead by the FBI. So who on earth is Yura and what is this surreal business that he's built?

[Tom Wright]

First, Jure needs an audience. How do people wanting to order murders find his website in the first place? The answer probably won't surprise you.

[Carl Miller]

They Google it.

[Tom Wright]

And over the years, Jure has manipulated the search engine to make sure his site is very often one of the top results.

[Carl Miller]

What many of his customers find is a website on the normal Internet that claims to be, believe this or not, a hitman for hire comparison website. It promises to help you avoid all the fakes and scams to find the real assassination sites top quality and affordable prices.

[Yura]

This website is the only dark web marketplace that is too complex to be.

[Carl Miller]

A joke or scam and of course all the top rated murder for hire websites belong to Jura. This comparison site sits there on the Internet like a large visible and not quite illegal signpost. It has lots of useful instructions for how you reach the darknet and where you need to go. If that still isn't enough to convince a potential customer, Jura has another trick up sleeve.

[Nemo]

There was this small group of kind of cyberpunk gurus really into coding and programming and all that stuff that turned this ambulance into like a little house on wheels.

[Carl Miller]

This is Nemo. That's the name he goes by online.

[Nemo]

They had Internet and everything and it was just like a hackerspace on wheels basically that they lived in.

[Carl Miller]

So it was like a rural community, like farm work and off grid living mixed in with cryptocurrencies and almost like a barter economy.

[Nemo]

Yeah, it was a lot of disenfranchised people that were just really lost.

[Carl Miller]

Around the same time Chris was messaging Jura, Nemo's life consisted of cryptocurrency based gig work. He'd write website reviews, design restaurant menus when he received a message about a hitman for hire website. Jura's site has had many names over the years. At that time it was called Basa Mafia.

[Nemo]

I don't remember what country they said they were in, but it was a European country and this friend had gotten beaten up by Basa Mafia and so he wanted to stop them and you know, vigilante underground justice or whatever.

[Carl Miller]

The person contacting Nemo told him they were starting a campaign to bring down Basa Mafia. They wanted to hire Nemo to write articles condemning Basa Mafia as a dangerous organization by warning people about all the murders they'd delivered.

[Nemo]

They wanted to start an organization called Stop Basa Mafia where the stop was all capitals. I was trying to actually help him and say like, okay, well, I guess I can write these articles for you. I almost thought of like him going to like a domestic violence organization because like this is, this is well beyond my pay grade.

[Carl Miller]

How many of these articles did you write for him?

[Nemo]

Maybe about a dozen.

[Carl Miller]

Nemo did a lot of weird jobs back then.

[Tom Wright]

Things like leaving fake reviews for a dodgy online pharmacy or receiving strange packages from companies trying to test their international shipping.

[Carl Miller]

So he didn't look too closely at this job either. Some of the articles he wrote are still up online on old blog pages. Hundreds of people have been shot dead.

[Angie Hicks]

By their hitman for hire in the.

[Carl Miller]

USA alone and hundreds more in Europe. We must stop them.

[Nemo]

How much would he pay he paid very well. He just kept throwing money at me.

[Carl Miller]

Nemo's clients didn't just commission blogs. He also paid Nemo to try other methods of getting press for the campaign.

[Nemo]

He even sent a substantial amount of Bitcoin to pay for this big press release from, like, a company that advertised we do press releases. And then they denied it and refunded the money. And so he was getting really frustrated and restless. It almost seemed like he was just annoyed about it, just mad. And increasingly more flustered with trying to get these articles out.

[Carl Miller]

Eventually, Nemo stopped receiving job requests from the strange anti Beta Mafia vigilante. Then in 2020, a YouTube video came out on an account called Barely Sociable. This is the true dark web saga of Basa Mafia.

[Nemo]

Wait a second. Basa Mafia? I haven't heard about that since 2016. What is this?

[Chris Monteiro]

You'll learn that to this day, not.

[Carl Miller]

A single real hitman site has actually ever existed. But don't be discouraged, as this individual darknet hitman site has one hell of.

[Tom Wright]

A story to tell.

[Carl Miller]

The video said that Basa Mafia was a scam website, but that its owner had created a fake campaign to have it shut down. He wanted to promote the idea that the site was genuinely dangerous. That's when Nemo realized by warning people.

[Tom Wright]

About the dangers of the website, he was actually helping Jura advertise it.

[Nemo]

I had to even grapple with understanding it. Like, okay, so they said they were trying to stop Basin Mafia, but it's not real. And they were using my negative articles for positive publicity for fake hitmen. This whole thing was, I would say, one of the craftiest and most well designed scams I've seen in this underground market.

[Carl Miller]

Nemo isn't the only person who's been roped to help Jura advertise his website. There are even fake hitmen too. There's a video on YouTube called Real Hitman for Hire from Chechen Mob. In it, a man in a black balaclava stands in front of the camera, surrounded by darkness. He loads bullets into a silver pistol before holding up a piece of paper with a link to Yura's site.

[Tom Wright]

Point me to target and I'll kill anyone.

[Carl Miller]

He points the gun into the air and fires off a volley of shots. There are dozens of videos like this that Jura has littered around the Internet. Young men in Balacavas brandishing weapons, promising to be ready to kill.

[Chris Monteiro]

I'm waiting on you.

[Carl Miller]

You can come here and submit your orders to kill the people you hate. Just remember to never give Your name, address, credit card, or email address to any Hitman site. The production values aren't exactly high, but that doesn't matter. Jura is going for quantity, not quality. And even when Jura's customers eventually work out that the whole thing is a scam, Jura just moves on. He chucks out the old site rebrands and starts all over again. The person the FBI needs to look for is, at his core, a digital marketer whose skill is to create a web of illusion online that fools potential customers into believing his website is real. And for us, the biggest challenge is working out where he's doing this from. If we're going to convince the FBI to take action, we need to track down Jura's location. Fortunately, we have a lead. In one of Chris hacks into the hitman's site, he came across a needle buried in a haystack of files. It's an image. It looks like Jure accidentally screenshotted his computer desktop.

[Tom Wright]

He has a bunch of tabs open, including a Google page. On this screenshot is a clue that lets us get a fix on Jura's location. The language on all the tabs, the Google URL, they're all linked to one country. Romania.

[Carl Miller]

Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done.

[Matt Murphy]

Out.

[Carl Miller]

Carpet in the bathroom. Like why? In knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download thumbtack today.

[Chris Monteiro]

Human intelligence. Collection, monitoring, surveillance.

[Carl Miller]

If we're going to find Jura in Romania, we need someone who knows the.

[Chris Monteiro]

Terrain, liaisoning with various agencies, various non state actors, organized crime syndicates, and so forth.

[Tom Wright]

An old friend put me in touch with someone. An ex French Foreign Legionnaire and now a private investigator. He's someone with deep contacts in Eastern European law enforcement.

[Carl Miller]

He goes by the nom de guerre Kuzman. Kuzman grew up in the Eastern Bloc. He was raised on stories of Greek gods and his grandfather's wartime heroics.

[Chris Monteiro]

As I was growing up in the shadow of my grandfather, who he was a famous general. Kind of wanted to be like him, to emulate him, to work for something bigger. Bigger than me.

[Carl Miller]

He says that when he was a young man, he got to know organized crime bosses and warlords.

[Chris Monteiro]

You go have dinner with someone, you get drunk together, and all of a sudden you are brothers. And at the same time, you know, something else flips and they would be willing to wipe out your entire family.

[Tom Wright]

The story Kuzman told me of his.

[Carl Miller]

Career spans the world of high finance, working as an intelligence asset and as a paratrooper. Now he specializes in corporate intelligence across Eastern Europe, which makes him the perfect person to find Jure. We've always thought that Jure was a single person, but that doesn't seem to chime with your experience of how these things normally work, is that right?

[Chris Monteiro]

Honestly, I've never seen anything even closely similar to this subject. That was a one person show.

[Carl Miller]

I've briefed Kuzman on what we know about Yura and how he operates. Now he's given me his appraisal.

[Chris Monteiro]

We are looking at multiple individuals who have multiple roles, potentially Yura being a single individual who's the head of a, I would guess a loosely organized criminal group.

[Carl Miller]

Kuzman puts out feelers with some contacts in Romania. A month later he comes back with his findings and we run into, not online hitmen, not organized crime, but yet another layer, one I never thought we'd find in this investigation.

[Chris Monteiro]

It turns out that a big part of the cyber community in Russia not only does not want to have anything to do with anyone trying to investigate our subject, but actually spoke of him as if he's one of them.

[Carl Miller]

Koozman tells me that some government agencies, especially Russian, take advantage of the underground world of cybercriminals. They have a loose arrangement. If the criminals occasionally carry out pro government activities, the authorities turn a blind eye to their money making scams.

[Chris Monteiro]

In the meantime, these characters are more or less free to do whatever they want.

[Carl Miller]

So Jure, or Jure's group could be operating under the protection of a state. I don't know anything about him for certain yet, but when I put the theory to the former director of gchq, the UK equivalent of the National Security Agency, he agreed it sounded plausible that the Russian authorities could have some kind of understanding with cybercriminal groups in the region. If Yura really is a government asset, the prospect of locating him might actually become impossible. But one thing is giving me confidence.

[Tom Wright]

I've been handed another lead. I can't say where I got it from, but it's from a source I trust.

[Carl Miller]

This source has passed me two IDs. They're for two men based in Romania whose names are both associated with the bitcoin wallet receiving payments from the users of the site. I pick up a printout of one of the IDs and examine it closely. If that is Jura, then he looks like an extremely clean Cut man, probably in his early 20s, I imagine, staring kind of almost surprisingly at the camera. One of these IDs could be Yura. Or they could very well be someone lower down the food chain in Jura's network being paid to cash out the money. I hand them over to Koozman to see what he can find out.

[Chris Monteiro]

We can start assembling the puzzle. There'll still be big holes in it, but then we can see. Okay, you know where to take this forward.

[Tom Wright]

Kuzman works his contacts and consults sources on the ground to pull together a detailed report. A few weeks later, he sends it to me.

[Carl Miller]

It's a profile of one of the suspects in the IDs. By the looks of it, they're a real person. It's not a fake id. I call my producer Caroline right away to dissect it.

[Kuzman]

This is wild.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. The thing that really made me gasp was that he's involved in E Commerce. The fact that he was actually at one point in 2009, running a E commerce company for me, that made me exclaim out loud, yes, but if you.

[Kuzman]

Were going to have predicted any business that would be the perfect fit for him to run as the legitimate face of what he's doing and how he's earning his money, what would it have been? It would have been E Commerce. Surely time will tell if we've got the right person, right? But it seemed almost impossible that we were even going to find anything.

[Carl Miller]

It feels great. Thank God for Quizman. It feels like we're on the offense for the first time with this.

[Tom Wright]

It feels like we're one step closer to unmasking Yura.

[Carl Miller]

Now I want to know more about the guy in the second id. I reach out to our contacts at the open source investigation specialist Spellingcat and an investigative journalist based in Romania. They tell me that the man in the second ID has built various websites, including web forums, and that he'd been fined by the authorities for illegally posting private data online. We still don't have anything concrete to prove who Yura is, but we've got more than enough to share with the FBI.

[Tom Wright]

We send them everything we have. In the FBI's hands, this information could be what it takes to finally catch Yura. We talked to the FBI several times about this on video calls and over emails. They ask questions and share little bits of information.

[Carl Miller]

They keep their cards close to their chests.

[Tom Wright]

But the more and more we talk.

[Carl Miller]

About it, the more we start to.

[Tom Wright]

Suspect that they could be as interested in catching Jura as we are. And after A couple of months of back and forth, forth. They tell us they want to meet in person.

[Carl Miller]

On the 23rd of September, I find myself in Times Square, New York. It's a hot day with the huge signs of Times Square all around, people filming over there. It's like a TV crew and thousands and thousands and thousands of tourists everywhere. And it's a really weird place to have what's going to be quite a secret meeting. I'm feeling extremely apprehensive. I never thought that this would be part of my life. But I'm here in New York, about to go and meet the FBI, when I arrive at one of the many towering glass hotels on the street. Three men in suits are waiting to meet me. Hi there. I'm Carl. Pleased to meet you. Hey, nice to meet you. Let's go talk. The agents won't let me record the meeting, so I turn off the record order. We're sitting in the breakfast bar of a hotel overlooking Times Square. Below, thousands of people wander under the neon lights cast from gigantic billboards. The FBI agents are from the Knoxville Bureau. They're the ones that have been taking all of our information and then parcelling it out to the other FBI bureaus around the country. Armed with the Bitcoin wallet information we've.

[Tom Wright]

Given them and the other information they've gathered about Jura, the FBI agents tell me they think they're ready to make their move and they agree with our strategy. They want to take over the site and run it themselves. And they're closer to Jura than I.

[Carl Miller]

Ever could have hoped. I jump on a call with my producer, Caroline, back in London to tell her the news.

[Kuzman]

So fill me in, Cole.

[Carl Miller]

They have found the server IP that is hosting his sites.

[Kuzman]

Oh, wow.

[Carl Miller]

And it's all the same ip.

[Kuzman]

No way. Seriously?

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. The big mistake he's made is that he has used a US server hosting company.

[Kuzman]

Oh, so they can subpoena it.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. He doesn't know whether the subpoena from the server is going to lead to Jura or to another wall. But he's in little doubt that this is a big opportunity and that, all being well, they may know who Yura is really, quite imminently. I mean, they were pleased that we have this, like, shared idea that we want them to take over the site. They want to take over the site. I don't know him. I don't know if he's, like, blatantly lying, right? But I don't think he is. But I was like, is there a chance that you will Just go and nick Kira without us or anything. He was like, that will not happen. When I know who he is, I will tell you. So with a fair wind, and this was the big news. They might have Yura in three weeks.

[Kuzman]

Three weeks? Like as in they'll have him? What do they mean by have him?

[Carl Miller]

They'll know who he is.

[Kuzman]

Oh, my God. Well, three weeks. We have to watch this space.

[Carl Miller]

Yeah. It genuinely feels like this is moving forwards to some kind of conclusion. Exciting. After my meeting with the FBI, three weeks passed. By then three more. No news. But I'm still hopeful. We're still passing the cases to the FBI and remain in regular contact. Just no word on Jura.

[Tom Wright]

With each passing day, my excitement is slowly replaced by the gnawing anxiety. The momentum is slipping away. Then, six months after our meeting, I get an update, but it's not the one I was hoping for.

[Carl Miller]

The FBI's investigation into Jura is being shut down. The agents we've been communicating with are taken off the case. Another federal agency, the Department of Homeland Security, is taking over. Having been on the cusp of finally getting Yura, we now have no idea how long the DHS investigation is going to take. It could be kicking around for months or even years. And that's if the investigation even still exists at all. The FBI agents we've been dealing with don't ghost us entirely. They're still willing to take new kill orders, but as they're no longer leading the investigation into Jura, they can't tell us anything about if and when he might finally be caught. Then on the 6th of April, 2022, I wake up to news. The news is out of Romania. There has been a massive police ra that's coming up on the next episode of Kill List. If you like Kill List, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondry in the Wondri app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wanderie and Novel. This is episode 5 of Kill List. Kill List is hosted by me, Karl Miller. It was written by me, Caroline Thornham and Tom Wright.

[Tom Wright]

Our lead producer is Caroline Thornham. Our producer is Tom Wright for Wandery.

[Carl Miller]

Our story editor is Chris Siegel and.

[Tom Wright]

Our senior producer is Russell Finch. Our assistant producer is Amalia Sorland and our researchers are Megan Oyinka and Lina Chang. Additional research from Chris Montero, Kuzman Meyer, Attila Biro. From the Context Investigative reporting Project Romania and from Anik Mossou, Fuka Postma and Brenna Smith at Bellingcat.

[Carl Miller]

Additional reporting by Amber Singer.

[Tom Wright]

Fact checking by Fendor Fulton. Our managing producers are Cherie Houston, Sarah Tobin and Charlotte Wolf for Novel and Lata Pundia for Wandery.

[Carl Miller]

Original music by Skylar Gerdemann and Martin.

[Tom Wright]

Linnebel Music supervision by Nicholas Alexander, Max O'Brien and Caroline Thornan. Sound design and mixing by Nicholas Alexander Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson. The news clips you heard were From News Nation, Fox 17, Fox 47, ABC 7, KREM 2, WKOW 27, KCAL News, ATINA 3, CNN and television info. The vlog clips were from the YouTube channels of Annie, Elise, TygaiMichael, NGBTG and Keith Jones. We also featured clips from Barely Sociable and Eric Mercer for Novel. Willard Foxton is Creative Director of Development. Our executive producers are Sean Glynn, Austin.

[Carl Miller]

Mitchell, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan for Novel.

[Tom Wright]

Executive producers for Wandery are George Lavender, Marshall Louis and Jen Sargent.

[Carl Miller]

There are few things as terrifying as being buried alive, and that fear became a reality for 20 year old college student Barbara Macall when she was kidnapped. Her captors took her to a remote area where they buried her in a specially constructed wooden container and threatened that if her wealthy father didn't deliver a $500,000 cash ransom, they would leave her to slowly suffocate in her subterranean prison. Were her captors ever caught? Well, in season 37 of against the Odds, we dig into one of the most notorious cases of the 1960s and the aftermath on against the Odds. Host adventurers Mike Corey and Cassie de Picole share stories of survival and resilience with true stories that make you feel as though you're living these experiences with our hero pros as they endure beyond their limits. Follow against the Odds on the Wandery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to against the Odds early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus.