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- [00:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi Crime House community. It's Vanessa Richardson looking for another Crime House original podcast to add to your rotation. You will love Clues with Morgan Absher and Kaylin Moore. Every Wednesday, Morgan and Kaelyn dig into the world's most notorious crimes, clue by clue. From serial killers to shocking murders. They follow the trail of clues, break down the evidence and debate the theories. It's like hanging out with your smart and true crime obsessed friends. Listen to clues on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Crime House. We all face moments where we need to take a leap of faith. Whether it's trusting ourselves, our loved ones, or something bigger, sometimes we just need to find the courage to pursue better things. Unfortunately, there are people who take advantage of that trust. Think of dishonest financial advisors who steal money, or corrupt politicians. And then there are those who exploit others completely. They manipulate people, seizing not just their money, but their entire lives. When it all falls apart, their victims are left with nothing. In 1978, infamous cult leader Jim Jones took everything from hundreds of his devoted followers. Jim had been exploiting people for decades, and when his lawless antics led to a high profile murder, he knew it was the end of the road. But Jim wouldn't go down without taking everyone with him. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer A Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [02:17]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And I'm Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer.
- [02:25]
Vanessa Richardson
Crime House is made possible by you. Follow Killer Minds and subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple podcasts for ad free early access to each two part series. And if you can't get enough true crime, go search and follow Crime House daily. Our team's twice a day show bringing you breaking cases, updates and unbelievable stories from the world of crime that are happening right now. Before we get started, you should know this episode contains discussions of suicide, gun violence, child abuse, harassment, murder and torture. Listener discretion is advised. Today we conclude our deep dive on Jim Jones, the infamous leader of the People's Temple cult, who built a following of thousands of people and eventually caused the Jonestown Massacre, the largest murder suicide in history.
- [03:19]
Dr. Tristan Engels
As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like Jim's obsession with keeping his followers isolated from the outside world, his drug use and its effect on his increasingly erratic behavior, and the infamous idea of drinking the Kool Aid. And how Jim convinced his followers to do it and at the cost of their lives.
- [03:39]
Vanessa Richardson
And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?
- [03:48]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [04:09]
Dr. Tristan Engels
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- [04:22]
Vanessa Richardson
25% yelling drop it.
- [04:24]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And 50% groaning at the bill from every pet visit.
- [04:27]
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- [04:30]
Dr. Tristan Engels
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- [04:35]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [04:37]
Dr. Tristan Engels
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- [04:40]
Vanessa Richardson
Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill. For one, whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled drop it. In the early 1970s, Jim Jones amassed thousands of members in his cult, the People's Temple. The cult had communes throughout California, and Jim used physical, sexual, and financial abuse to keep everyone in line and maintain power over them. But Jim's ego was getting too big and cracks began to form in what he thought was a solid foundation. Soon soon, some of his most trusted congregants were looking for ways out. One of the most extreme examples came in 1972 when a member named Grace Stoen gave birth to a baby boy. Grace and her husband Tim, lived at the commune with Jim in San Francisco. They'd been part of the cult for two years. Tim was Jim's attorney and one of his most trusted confidants. But Jim betrayed that trust by having an affair with Grace. And when Grace gave birth to her son, John Victor, Jim took things a step further. He forced Tim to sign an affidavit naming Jim as John Victor's father. Regardless of who the biological father was, it was Jim's way of harnessing more power and humiliating Tim. There was another layer to Jim's scheme as well. The form required a witness And Jim made his wife, marceline, fill that role. He likely wanted to remind marceline of her subservient role in their marriage and in the cult, Especially because that same year, Marceline did something that Jim felt had disrespected him in a major way. She'd fallen in love with another man and told Jim she was leaving him. In response, Jim immediately summoned their seven children into the room to tell them their mother was breaking up the family. This act of manipulation almost worked on marceline, but she held her ground. And that's when Jim took things further. He went outside and loudly proclaimed to everyone on the commune grounds that if Marceline took his children away, he would kill her. Everyone knew he was serious, including marceline, so she was forced to stay.
- [07:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Jim's clearly escalating here by making direct death threats to reassert ownership and dominance over marceline. He's desperate to stop her from leaving, because if she goes, it would show others it's possible to escape. And that kind of defiance could spread quickly, Especially among those who are already questioning him. So the threat is both personal and performative to Marceline. It's a direct message. It's a personal one, saying, you have no agency and no right to leave me. But it's performative to his followers because it's a warning. If I'm capable of threatening the woman who raised my children, whom I'm married to, imagine what I could do to you. And beneath it, there's another manipulation at play. He's positioning himself as both the source of danger once again and the one who can stop it again. And that paradox of control in coercive systems is what happens. It creates fear, frames himself as the only one who can keep everyone safe, even if that safety is from himself.
- [08:04]
Vanessa Richardson
What can we learn from Jim's sort of hyper fixation on sex and relationships? How is his apparent hypersexuality? How can it relate to his other traits as a cult leader?
- [08:14]
Dr. Tristan Engels
In general, yes, that's entirely about power. In coercive systems like this, sex becomes another tool of dominance, control, and validation. For someone with Jim's level of grandiosity and entitlement. Sexual access to others is proof of superiority, A way to reinforce that normal boundaries don't apply to him. It functions as a continuous loyalty test, feeding his own need for reassurance and control. Leaders like Charles manson, whom we covered on the show, and David koresh did the same thing. They weaponized intimacy as a means of grooming on a massive scale. Followers are conditioned to see it as A spiritual duty or even an honor to be chosen as a sexual partner. And the leaders equate that submission with devotion. It's not about love or faith. It's about ownership. And it's one of the clearest indicators of how deeply power can corrupt intimacy.
- [09:07]
Vanessa Richardson
The more Jim tried to maintain control, the more he spiraled out. When things didn't go his way, he started acting out in bizarre sexual ways. In 1973, Jim was arrested for masturbating in a Los Angeles movie theater. Tim Stoen, his ever loyal attorney, helped him get the charges dropped, and they were able to keep the press quiet about the incident as well. But word still spread among the cult about Jim's increasingly obsessive sexual behavior. And soon it became the straw that broke the camel's back. Also in 1973, eight members of the congregation wrote a letter to Jim to say they felt his obsession with sex was overshadowing the group's focus on communal socialist living. And for that reason, they were leaving. The group managed to sneak out, which threw Jim into a tailspin. And that's when he had an idea. Jim realized that in California, his followers still had too much exposure to the outside world. He could never fully control them if they were straddling two worlds. His solution? To drag his followers even further away from life as they knew it. Jim started preaching that he had visions of a completely self sufficient farming community, a utopia. All they had to do was pack their bags and head to South America. Jim had set his sights on the country of Guyana. Located on the continent's north coast, it was surrounded by jungle to the south and ocean to the north. It was small and completely isolated. Not only that, but the government there was offering cheap parcels of land. In 1974, Jim started saving up the money he was taking from people to put a down payment on a new slice of heaven. Then he sent a group of pioneers down to Guyana to purchase and prepare the land. Those people spent the next few years clearing the jungle and building the new compound.
- [11:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So by this point, Jim's followers were likely exhausted. They're definitely isolated and completely dependent on him for their sense of safety and purpose. So when he introduced the idea of a utopia, he likely framed it as something that was pure, peaceful and free from persecution. Which means it was something that offered relief from the constant anxiety that he had created, once again making him the rescuer. It also reframed this kind of like a divine calling. And when people believe they're part of something sacred like that, they'll tolerate sacrifice at this level because the suffering feels meaningful to them. For Jim, that was strategic. Whenever he starts fearing he's losing his grip of control, he seeks to tighten it. And isolating his followers further is one way to physically and psychologically do that. He could control their environment, their access to information, and their contact with the outside world. Once they get there, they would be even more dependent on him than they currently were for the very reasons even he identified. This was about total containment.
- [12:11]
Vanessa Richardson
I find myself asking this question a lot about cults in general. Why did these people so easily give up their property to Jim?
- [12:18]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think a lot of people wonder that because, again, we're looking at this from the outside, and from the outside, it seems like very obvious that they're being manipulated. But from the inside, it's not that easy to detect. But the reasons they do this, it's the same reasons that they give up their entire lives. They isolate from families, and they give up their jobs. They're being conditioned to believe that they don't need those things or that those things are bad for them and that everything they do need is provided for by their leader. Their individual identity has been systematically dismantled through fear, dependency, and constant reinforcement that their worth only existed in relation to Jim in this case and his cause. And when you're in a highly controlled group like this, where everyone is watching and everything and everyone is testing you, material sacrifice becomes a moral test. There's also a psychological principle at play called the sunk cost fallacy. The more people invest their time, their labor, their relationships, their home or savings, the harder it becomes to walk away. The act of giving everything up to Jim only reinforced their belief that they had to stay because leaving would mean losing everything and that none of this meant anything.
- [13:35]
Vanessa Richardson
Not all of Jim's followers gave into his command so easily, though. In addition to The Gang of Eight, as Jim called them, the 1970s saw more major defections from the People's Temple. A couple named Elmer and Deanna Myrtle had raised a lot of money for the cult. But when Jim found out that their daughter was spending time with outsiders, he beat her publicly. After that, Elmer and Deanna formed an escape from plan. They changed their names to Al and Jeie Mills to void any contracts they had signed with Jim. Then they left. Around the same time, Grace Stoen learned that her husband Tim had listed Jim as their son's father. And now she was forced to give up John Victor so he could be raised communally, as was the case for all the children within the People's temple. Then by 1976, Grace became even more distressed as she witnessed Jim carry out more public beatings. She couldn't take it anymore. Grace fled, leaving her son behind, but not without a plan. She filed for divorce from Tim and hired a lawyer to help her regain custody of John Victor. Shortly after Tim joined her, he cut ties with Jim. Even though he and Grace's marriage was irreparable, he joined her fight to regain full custody of their son. Grace and Tim's departures were a huge shock. They'd been some of Jim's fiercest allies. Now, as more prominent members escaped, Jim found it harder to demonize his defectors. And then his own daughter Suzanne left. It seems like Suzanne got out with Marceline's help, because Marceline was also helping their son Stefan find an apartment with roommates outside of the commune. But she couldn't work fast enough. Jim found out what she was doing and sent Stefan to Guyana to help build the new compound. By that point, about 50 other people were already there. Jim's motive was not just to keep his son under his thumb, but to get the compound in Guyana ready faster. Because by 1977, he was facing even more outside scrutiny. First, a congregant named Bob Houston was found dead at the train yard where he worked. Bob frequently got into heated intellectual debates with Jim. So when he died, there was suspicion among members as well as Bob's family that Jim was behind his death. Bob's two daughters were still members of the People's Temple, but his father Sam, was not. And Sam started looking into Jim more and more from there. In the spring of 1977, a journalist named Marshall Kilduff started reporting on Jim in the People's Temple. Kilduff spoke to many of the defectors, including Sam Houston, the gang of eight, the Mills, and Grace Stoen. When Jim caught wind of this, he became extremely anxious, especially because the media was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the issues he was facing. Around this same time, Al and Jeannie Mills were speaking to the authorities. They explained that Jim was stealing money and property from people. But they also revealed something else. Jim was not only forging people's travel documents to get them into Guyana, but he was smuggling weapons into the country. Investigators looked into it, although Jim managed to hide the evidence when they came sniffing around. But the situation was put him even more on edge, and in August, he finally reached his boiling point. When Kilduff's article came out, it was scathing, and it was all true. In response to the article. San Francisco Mayor George Moscone, who had once been a major ally of Jim's, made a public statement saying he should be investigated now. Jim had lost his main source of protection. Protection. It was over for him.
- [17:34]
Dr. Tristan Engels
In California, losing political power would be an existential catastrophe. For Jim, those alliances strengthened the image of him as a visionary leader. Without the political protection, he suddenly becomes vulnerable to scrutiny, accountability and exposure, which are the exact forces he spent years evading. And for someone with such a fragile ego structure, that kind of threat doesn't lead to reflection. It leads to escalation with increasing parano reactivity and desperation. Especially when you consider the fear and control that an allyship with the mayor afforded him over his following. But with the mayor turning on him, his daughter leaving, the cracks are showing. But at the same time, he can also weaponize this moment by using it as evidence to stoke even more fear in his followers. If he can convince them that outside forces are closing in, it reinforces the idea that Guyana isn't just important, it's essential. The loss of political protection then becomes another justification for deeper isolation. Which is exactly how cult leaders are so effective. They can spin even the most devastating of circumstances for them in their favor. Like this.
- [18:50]
Vanessa Richardson
Is someone like Jim even capable of taking a step back and thinking critically or reflecting on his own actions? Does he actually understand consequences or does he just always believe he's in the right?
- [19:03]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Someone like Jim is not really wired for genuine self reflection. It's a psychological reality of his personality structure, at least the one he exhibits. Obviously, I've never met him. I've never diagnosed him or evaluated him. So based on what we know, to take a step back and to think critically about his own actions, he would need three things. Humility, empathy, and insight. And he seems to lack all three of those. His grandiosity made him believe he was above criticism. His paranoia reframed any criticism as an attack. And his need for control made it impossible to acknowledge when he was wrong or even take accountability. So people with this level of narcissistic and authoritarian pathology typically avoid any internal reflection. Because it threatens the illusion of power they depend on. And with regard to consequences. Yes, he understands them in a very self serving way. Because look at how he implements them on his followers. There's public beatings, death threats, extortion. And he's very skilled at avoiding consequences of his own for years. And skilled at how he does this by making friends with powerful people and using intimidation tactics. But Jim doesn't internalize consequences like most people do, and he certainly does not seem to feel remorse or even learn from mistakes. His grandiosity allows him to live in a reality where consequences exist for others, but not for him.
- [20:27]
Vanessa Richardson
Jim wasn't about to stick around and face his own downfall. He packed his bags and he and hundreds of other followers, including Marceline and their children, quickly made their way to Guyana, far ahead of Jim's original schedule. When they finally arrived and stepped into the lush green jungle, they felt like they were in paradise. Jim officially named the new commune the People's Temple Agricultural Project, but he only ever referred to it by its nickname, Jonestown. Jim finally had his own kingdom. Jonestown was everything he ever wanted. It was also the beginning of the end.
- [21:14]
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- [23:51]
Vanessa Richardson
In August of 1977, 46 year old Jim Jones led hundreds of his cult members to the South American country of Guyana. Jim had promised everyone that their new commune, which he called Jonestown, would be a peaceful, utopic promised land. But that couldn't have been further from the truth. Because they rushed to Jonestown ahead of schedule. There wasn't enough housing for everyone. Up to a dozen people squeezed into cabins that could only comfortably fit half that many. And there was no toilet paper or hot water, at least not for Jim's followers. But he had his own private cabin and amenities. Jim also had plenty of food, while others were on the brink of starvation. Even though he'd promised a self sufficient farming environment, Jim clearly hadn't done his research. The soil and the hot, humid climate were inhospitable to the crops they planted. People toiled in the insect filled fields all day, but were barely able to harvest anything. Instead, Jim rationed out rice and peanut butter. He wasn't concerned that people were hungry. He used it as another method for power. Once a week he made everyone line up so he could hand each person a cookie and and made them thank him one by one.
- [25:09]
Dr. Tristan Engels
In high control environments like this, leaders preach equality because it creates the illusion of shared purpose. But behind the scenes, they hoard resources because deprivation is one of the most effective ways to maintain control and dominance. And for Jim, food was leverage. When people are hungry, exhausted and struggling to meet basic needs, they're far easier to control, especially when they're isolated. This is classic authoritarian psychology. Again, create the problem, position yourself as a solution, a pattern we have seen him do all throughout this episode and our first episode. It feeds his grandiosity and it reinforces the belief that without him, they would have nothing. The hypocrisy wasn't just tolerated by him, it was Central to his self image and his control over the group.
- [25:58]
Vanessa Richardson
A big reason for people's growing fear of Jim was because in Jonestown, they were now completely trapped. Trapped. Unlike in California, people couldn't find ways to sneak out or escape. Because Jim had confiscated everyone's passports and medical records. He also monitored and censored their letters and phone calls. On top of that, just like he'd done with John Victor, Jim now demanded guardianship over all the children in Jonestown. That way he had control over them and their parents. And Jim wasn't just calculated and methodical. He was also blatantly violent. If anyone spoke out against him, he would drug them and confine them to a coffin sized box. His message was loud and clear. Death was the only way out. Meanwhile, Jim's recreational drug use also increased. He'd always been known for his long, rambling speeches, but in Jonestown it only got worse. He'd preach to congregants over a megaphone as they worked in the fields. He also held regular propaganda classes to talk about how dangerous the United States government was and how the CIA was trying to attack them. Once, in what seemed to be a drug fueled frenzy, Jim randomly decided to put on a musical. Other times, Jim was so high he'd become completely incapacitated.
- [27:23]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Stimulants flood the brain with dopamine and they ramp up the nervous system, making someone more volatile, less sleep regulated, more paranoid, and far more reactive. So when you combine someone who has a pre existing authoritarian personality with a substance that can intensify paranoia and aggression, you get exactly what you see from Jim here, which is increasingly erratic behavior, escalating cruelty, and a complete loss of emotional regulation. Amphetamines also distort perception. They can make someone feel invincible, hyper focused and energized, even when the body is physically depleted. For a leader like Jim, that would enhance his sense of superiority and give his delusions more fuel. It feeds the belief that he alone has clarity, insight, or divine purpose, while everyone else becomes a threat or an obstacle. And from a control perspective, the drug use worsens the instability in the environment. His mood becomes unpredictable, more so than it might have already been. His followers never know which version of him they're going to get. That unpredictability actually can increase compliance because people are walking on eggshells, even more than they already were.
- [28:34]
Vanessa Richardson
Many of Jim's followers were aware of how paranoid and delusional Jim was becoming. And they knew better than to get on his bad side or risk fueling the fire. So they did their Best to be part of the community. Music was a central aspect of life in Jonestown. Some of the members formed a gospel choir. They performed during gym sermons like it was a typical church service. For many, the gospel music was the only thing they had to ease their anxiety and suffering. The choir even used basic tape recorders to capture their music. Since they were so low on resources, they often taped over other recordings, erasing their previous lives on the outside. Little by little, however, back in the US People were hard at work organizing against Jim. A number of defectors, including Al and Jeie Mills and Grace Stoen, as well as current congregants. Family members formed a group called the Concerned Relatives. They talked to the media and reached out to politicians to voice their worries about the cult. They pleaded for help, saying their loved ones needed to be rescued from Jim's clutches. Jim had thought that he could isolate himself and his followers from the rest of the world in Jonestown. But the Concerned Relatives were about to burst his bubble. A judge awarded custody of John Victor to Grace Stoen and ordered Jim to return the boy to his mother. But Jim knew this could set a dangerous precedent. If he gave in to the ruling, he could lose custody of all the children in Jonestown. A legal battle ensued, and eventually, on September 7, 1977, Grace's lawyer traveled to Jonestown to try to settle the matter in person. In response, Jim launched a full scale offensive. He told his followers they were under attack from outside forces, passed out weapons, and stationed people at posts around the compound where he made them stay for days with no breaks. He even radioed the Guyanese government to get their help stalling the court action and threatened that the entire population of Jonestown would, quote, extinguish itself otherwise. After six days of Jim's threats, Grace's lawyer was forced to leave and John Victor remained inside Jonestown.
- [30:58]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So the question I think here is how much of this is Jim lying to his followers and how much of it is him really starting to believe what he's telling his followers? And I think this is where we have to hold two realities at once. Because on one hand, Jim absolutely used the narrative of being under attack as a manipulation tactic. He knew that framing the custody dispute as a threat threat to the entire community would activate fear, obedience and urgency among his followers. It was a way to mobilize them, to pressure the lawyer to leave so he could ultimately get his way and reclaim his control. So there was definitely strategy behind this. But the other reality is that by this stage, Jim was psychologically unraveling. With enough drug use, sleep deprivation, stress, and unchecked paranoia, even fabricated threats can start to feel real to the person who created them. Leaders like Jim often do start consciously manufacturing danger, but eventually they can become consumed by it themselves. So did he truly believe they were under literal attack? No, I don't think so. Not in the sense that it required military level mobilization like this. But he absolutely experienced it as a psychological attack, and he's responding to it as if it's immediate and literal. The fear was very real, even if the threat itself was distorted.
- [32:17]
Vanessa Richardson
As Jim starts to believe his own lies more and more, what effect can that have on his followers? Do you it think. Think that only serves to brainwash them more?
- [32:25]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Absolutely. When a leader genuinely starts to believe what they're preaching, that can be contagious because his people take emotional cues from the person in power. If he appears terrified, they feel threatened. If he insists they're under attack, the group's fear response activates collectively. And when they're in fear, which is typically often the case because they use fear to maintain control and compliance, rational thinking becomes harder. And this is why it can accelerate brainwashing, because it becomes emotionally overpowering. Genuinely believes it. His followers have even less room to challenge him because he's volatile, unpredictable, and they're afraid.
- [33:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, afterward, Jim seemed to realize how much thrill and gratification he felt when his followers showed their willingness to die for the cause. From then on out, he started instigating something known as White Nights. Jim would force everyone to stay awake all night to perform ceremonies where they. They'd pledge their lives to him. Sometimes he'd hand everyone a Kool aid knockoff called Flavor aid and tell them it was poisoned, even though it wasn't, just to see who was willing to drink it. Even those who were hesitant didn't have much of a choice. Everyone knew Jim and his cronies would beat them mercilessly if they defied him. They also knew that they had guns. And if they didn't make the choice to drink, then they'd be killed in an evening even more painful way. But while he was ramping up his efforts, so were the concerned relatives. Sam Houston, father of Bob Houston, who had mysteriously died back in San Francisco, wanted to get Bob's daughters out of Jonestown. Sam was never able to prove that Jim killed his son, but at the very least, he wanted to keep his granddaughters safe. So Sam turned to his old friend, California congressman Leo Ryan. Ryan for help. And as it turned out, Congressman Ryan was Already looking into Jim. He'd been keeping tabs on Jonestown ever since its inception, partly because the IRS was eyeing Jim and the People's Temple for tax evasion, and also because the FCC had fined Jim for broadcasting on unregulated radio channels. Ryan spent much of 1978 investigating Jonestown, and he began to hear reports that people were being held there against their will. Then, In August of 1978, Ryan spoke with the concerned relatives and learned about Grace Stoen's ongoing custody battle. Once the congressman heard about this, he decided it was time for him to go down to Jonestown himself. On November 15, 1978, he made his journey. Little did he know, he'd never return.
- [35:16]
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- [36:44]
Vanessa Richardson
In November 1978, Congressman Leo Ryan led an investigative trip to Jonestown, leading a group of of 19 people, including journalists, politicians, and some concerned relatives like Tim and Grace Stoen. It was a high profile visit, and bad press or government reports could mean the end of everything Jim Jones had built. At first, Jim refused to open up the compound to visitors, but his wife Marceline convinced him otherwise. She said they should be proud of what they'd built and that the congressman should see it. Jim still said no. But in a rare display of defiance, Marceline insisted. She said she'd worked hard for the life they built and she deserved a say. For once, Jim finally relented.
- [37:32]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think the way Marceline approached Jim is ultimately why he relented and agreed. She appealed initially to his grandiosity directly, his need for self importance and superiority. She framed it as an opportunity to showcase everything that he had built or they had built. And to someone with very strong narcissistic traits, that can be irresistible. For Jim, this wasn't about compromise or connection. The fact that he relented, it was about exhibition. I think in the end, when you present something in a way that reinforces his self image, he becomes cooperative because he viewed it as an opportunity. So rather than feeling threatened by the request, he reframed it as admiration. And for someone like him, that is the exact emotional currency that gets results. But at the same time, things are very fragile right now. If Marceline is going to push, now is not the time for him to stand firm and create more fractures or cracks in their system. So I think that also added to this.
- [38:29]
Vanessa Richardson
This is so interesting because Marceline seems so subservient. She always kind of acquiesced to his. All his whims. Do you think this could have been a tactic on her part to try and get help or maybe escape? Why did. Why did she want this visit to happen? Why did she fight for it so much?
- [38:43]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, recalling from our previous discussions, Jim would threaten Marceline anytime she attempted to leave or try to even help her children leave. She was psychologically and physically abusive. I think we can agree just based on what we know. And though she ultimately has chosen to stay time and time again for reasons that are very complex and not uncommon in abuse dynamics like this, I think it's very likely she saw this as an opportunity for herself as well. Even if she might not have been fully conscious of it in the moment. Psychologically, people in her position often cling to any outside lifeline and hope that an outsider would see what she couldn't safely report or say herself. So, on that same note, since we haven't done a deep dive into her specifically, she may also have truly believed this was simply an opportunity to show off what their community was about, hoping it would resolve the issue or conflict as well. But I'm inclined to believe it's more likely than not that she saw this as a chance of an escape, potentially.
- [39:44]
Vanessa Richardson
Once Jim gave the green light, he immediately had his followers prepare the compound. They cleaned the property, sweeping paths and trimming trees. The kitchen prepared a full dinner. And when Congressman Ryan arrived on November 17, 1978, he was pleasantly surprised. He saw no Signs of mistreatment or anyone being held against their will. The group even enjoyed live music. After dinner, though, it was clear Jim was putting on a show, Jim took the stage and passionately spoke about defectors threatening Jonestown. When the visiting journalist asked why he felt threatened, Jim claimed it was because they were socialists and the government didn't want them to live in peace. He also emphasized that no one wanted to leave Jonestown. However, he was immediately proven wrong. During dinner, a resident named Vernon Gosney discreetly handed a note to NBC reporter Don Harris, simply stating, please help us get out of Jonestown. Don told Congressman Ryan about the note, and Ryan then spoke with Vernon. Meanwhile, Don approached Jim, his camera rolling with Vernon's note in hand. Then he gave it to Jim. Jim's face fell. No longer smooth talking, he stumbled over his words, making excuses about people, lying. He then quickly shifted, repeatedly asking the outside world to leave Jonestown alone. The whole time, he looked scared.
- [41:15]
Dr. Tristan Engels
When Don handed him the note, Jim was cornered, unexpectedly and publicly, in a way. And while he was performing his role as this benevolent leader. And this wasn't just any challenge. It was coming from people with real authority, people he had willingly allowed into his environment. His stumbling wasn't embarrassment. It was fear. In that moment, his facade cracked, and he realized he was being exposed in a very direct way, a way he hasn't before. So he did what he's always, always done when his power feels threatened. He flipped the narrative and cast himself as the victim. This is his most reliable defense mechanism. It allows him to continue denying accountability and reframe himself as the persecuted one. And historically, it's been incredibly effective. If he can convince his followers or keep them convinced, I should say that the danger is external. It's not him. Everyone else is against them. Then any dissent from within becomes treasonous, and any scrutiny from outside becomes more proof, proof that he's right. Because if the threat is always out there, then he remains the hero in his own world and the one his followers believe that they must trust, obey, and protect.
- [42:30]
Vanessa Richardson
Congressman Ryan and the journalists with him were now seeing the cracks in the facade. They were suspicious of Jim, but they needed to play their cards right to investigate further without being turned away. So the next day, they returned for a tour of the compound, led by Marceline, who seemed tense and overly rehearsed. Meanwhile, Jim was nowhere to be found. That's because he was busy processing some disturbing news. That morning, amidst all the distractions, about a dozen Jonestown residents had escaped and were headed for the US Embassy. Jim's face paled when one of his trusted congregants relayed the message. But he didn't have time to dwell, because then someone else approached him to say that a few more families had apparently been speaking with Congressman Ryan about leaving with him that very day. Jim stormed outside, and when the reporters spotted him, they cornered him and asked him about all the people who were leaving, and he completely lost his composure. Jim screamed that those. Those leaving never truly believed in the cause. As Jim yelled, the scene became chaotic because now some of his congregants were gathering near the cars that were waiting to take Congressman Ryan's party back to the airstrip for their flight home. Loyal Jonestown residents shouted at the defectors, and families argued, split between leaving and staying. All told, about 15 defectors filed into the cars. Vernon Gosney, the man who'd slipped the note to Don Harris, was among them. Plus, there were the dozen or so who'd left earlier that day. It was a small number compared to the hundreds who still remained in Jonestown. But that was still too many for Jim. His empire was crumbling before his eyes. The defectors would set a precedent for everyone else unless he did something fast. Jim called over to a few members of his inner circle and whispered in their ears. Then he watched as they marched toward the cars. Congressman Ryan was trying to sort out last minute travel arrangements with the members of his party. There weren't enough seats for everyone in the cars, so they'd have to go in groups. As Ryan counted people off, the inner circle suddenly ambushed them, and a congregant named Don Sly, pulled out a knife. Don lunged at Ryan and stabbed at him repeatedly. But luckily, someone pulled Don away before he could strike, and Congressman Ryan was unharmed. Ryan then rushed everyone into the cars and urged the drivers to get out of there. And that's when one more defector, a man named Larry Layton, ran up to one of the cars and asked to be let in. Larry was married to Carolyn Layton, Jim's favored mistress, whom he had a son with. But Carolyn didn't join her husband. Instead, she calmly watched him go, and so did Jim. The cars finally departed Jonestown and arrived at the airstrip. A few minutes later, people started boarding the small propellered plane, including Larry Layton and Vernon Gosney. However, since so many people had left the cult, they now had to wait for a second plane. As they sat on the tarmac, NBC reporter Don Harris spotted something in the distance, and it was a tractor trailer. The vehicle drove closer before parking on the tarmac nearby Don could see about a dozen men inside, and as he stared at them, something felt off. The men weren't just monitoring the situation. They seemed like they were getting in position. Before Don could say anything, one of the men in the front of the truck reached back into the bed. That's when Don shouted for everyone to get down, and the men in the truck opened fire. At that very moment, Larry Leighton stood from his seat in the plane, pulled out a gun and started shooting. He fired twice, hitting Vernon and one other defector, until others on board overpowered him. They managed to take his gun, but Larry slipped through their grasps and ran off the plane toward the tractor trailer. This was his plan all along. It was Jim's plan all along. The men in the truck were careful not to hit Larry. As they continued firing, Larry hopped into the bed of the truck as one by one, members of the congressman's party fell to the ground. Soon, no one was moving. What the shooters didn't know was that while 16 people had been shot, 11 of them were simply lying still, waiting for the attackers to leave, including Vernon. Help would soon come for them, but it was too late for five others who tragically lost their lives during the airstrip attack, including NBC cameraman Bob Brown, San Francisco Chronicle photographer Greg Robinson, defector Patricia Parks, Don Harris, and Congressman Leo Ryan. Meanwhile, the assailants turned the truck around and sped back to Jonestown to meet their own fates. Back at Jonestown, Jim received a radio call from the men in the truck. The shooting had gone as planned, and the congressman was dead. Around 4pm on November 18, 1978, Jim Jones started shepherding the nearly 1,000 people, people who remained into the pavilion. Some of his most trusted followers set up tables in the back and started mixing large vats of flavor aid. As people filed into the pavilion, carrying their babies, holding their children's hands, and carefully guiding the elderly, they noticed the familiar sight. This was just like any other White Night ceremony. Jim had given them flavor Aid countless times before. It was a test of loyalty, and after so many defections that day, it was important that everyone show Jim who he could trust. But this time, it wasn't a game. For months, Jim had solicited the help of one of his trusted members, who was a doctor, to stockpile Valium and cyanide. Now his trusted few were mixing fatal doses of the drug bugs into the vats of punch. Now he watched as everyone took their seats. He popped a tape into a recorder, then spoke into his megaphone. Jim started by telling everyone how much he loved them and tried to provide them with a good life. And soon he spiraled into a long, rambling speech about how outside forces were trying to invade Jonestown and destroy everything they'd built. Many applauded and cheered as he spoke, but soon Jim's tone became somber. There was something he needed to tell his devoted followers. There had been a shooting at the airstrip, and Congressman Leo Ryan was dead. With that, a hush fell across the pavilion. Somewhere in the crowd, one of Jim's followers cried out, it's all over. And Jim agreed. It was all over. All they had now was their legacy. Everyone knew what this news meant. The murder of a U.S. official meant the end of Jonestown. But Jim would never let them stick around long enough to see his empire ripped from his own hands. The only way out was death. As the members processed what was going on, some started to cry out in fear and defiance. Others asked if it wasn't too late for them to flee to yet another country where their beliefs would be accepted. But Jim said no. A few members grew increasingly frantic as Jim explained that their collective death would be revolutionary. And before anyone could argue otherwise, Jim's trusted few stood up to speak in his defense. Soon, more and more people stood up to claim their loyalty to him, him and his cause. Then Jim's henchmen started passing out the flavor aid. Meanwhile, Jim radioed a few of his followers who had traveled to nearby Georgetown that day, including two of his own sons, Jim Jr. And Stefan, who had tried to leave the cult before Jim sent him to Guyana. They'd gone to Georgetown for a basketball game, but Jim told them it was time for, quote, revolutionary suicide. One of the people there took his orders immediately. She used a knife to kill three of her children before taking her own life. However, Jim's two sons refused. They alerted local authorities that something dangerous might be happening at Jonestown, but no one seemed to take the matter seriously, and Jim's sons couldn't return in time. Back at Jonestown, Marceline sat with the rest of her children. She now believed that two of her sons were dead, and she knew Jim wouldn't let the others survive. So she relented and took a sip of the flavor aid. By now, many people were fatally dosing themselves. Parents fed it to their own children, and soon Jim and his accomplices realized that they hadn't used enough Valium. They had intended for it to put people to sleep before the cyanide took a few effect, and they promised everyone death wouldn't hurt. But they were wrong. Children cried out in pain. Adults shuddered and winced throughout the final moments of their lives. Some of Jim's most devoted followers clapped each time another person was confirmed dead, but others started second guessing things. They held their drinks to their mouths but hesitated. However, they still had no choice. Some of Jim's accomplices started feeding people against their will, and his armed guards now surrounded the pavilion. It didn't matter who wanted to live. Jim Jones would make sure all his followers died that day. By 7pm Jonestown had fallen silent.
- [52:59]
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- [53:55]
Dr. Tristan Engels
When people ask how one man could convince nearly a thousand individuals to participate in what was essentially a mass murder suicide, it's because of the system he built, not the moment. It was the culmination of years of psychological conditioning, isolation, coercion and fear, which we've covered as we've gone through the story. But it's important to highlight that armed guards surrounded the pavilion. That's coercion. And I hardly call this a collective choice. This was mass murder. It just really shows the devastating power of manipulation, isolation, fear and dependency.
- [54:32]
Vanessa Richardson
Why would someone like Jim think that mass death was the only way out? Do you think he was driven by that need for devotion that he always had? Or did he just need to prove to the world what he was capable of?
- [54:44]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So remember, Jim had an obsession with death since he was a child. From early on, he learned that death commanded attention. When he held those makeshift funerals for animals he found along the side of the road, people stopped, they listened, and they noticed him. And in that moment, he discovered that death created the significance he'd been looking for. And as he Grew older, that connection intensified. His fixation on Hitler wasn't ideological or even political. It was psychological. Jim was captivated by how Hitler wielded death as a mechanism of control, fear, and obedience. And what's particularly revealing is that Jim interpreted Hitler's suicide as an act of power rather than what it truly was, the final end of a destructive dictator. And to Jim, Hitler's suicide symbolized ultimate dominance. It was the refusal to be captured, the refusal to submit, and the ability to choose one's end on one's own terms. That's a deeply distorted perception, but it tells us a great deal about Jim's thinking. He equated control over life and death with strength. And it shows the beginnings of a worldview where death is a tool, not a tragedy. Now here we are. His health was deteriorating, his paranoia was escalating, and his influence was waning. Members were leaving him, and he knew more would follow, especially now, especially after this other mass murder that he had just committed. He felt cornered, exposed and betrayed. And in that state, he reverted back to the core belief that death brings power, commands attention, and restores control and legacy. So this was his final assertion of authority, one where he gets to remain the central figure who decides when and how everyone leaves and how everything ends and how he'll be remembered.
- [56:34]
Vanessa Richardson
Between the mass death in Jonestown, the deaths in Georgetown, and the airstrip attack, 918 total people died, including over 300 children. Children. Among those children was John Victor Stoen, whose parents never got to see him again after they escaped. And the final death that occurred was Jim's. As he looked out at the remnants of the promised land, he reached into his holster, pulled out his pistol, and took his own life. It was over. Jonestown was over. But for many, the pain was just beginning. Beginning. By now, the Guyanese authorities had responded to the shooting at the airstrip. The next day, they discovered the horrific tragedy at Jonestown, including the bodies of people clutching each other in their final moments of anguish. Over time, authorities were able to identify about half of the deceased. Their remains were returned to their families. However, over 400 bodies were unidentified, with no IDs or any other way to determine who they were. Those people were laid to rest in a mass grave in Oakland, California. Jim Jones was cremated and his ashes were thrown into the Atlantic Ocean. At the same time, authorities discovered some unexpected miracles. One elderly woman had been asleep in her cabin during the mass death and didn't wake up until the next morning. Plus, about 33 people had managed to slip away into the jungle and find safety. After all was said and done, the church's assets went to the US Government and to repay Jim's creditors, Larry Leighton was the only person persecuted for the crimes of the Jonestown massacre. He was convicted of attempted murder and released on parole. In 2002, his wife, Carolyn, died at Jonestown. Jim's tape recording of the mass death was seized by the FBI and has since been released to the public. However, many mysteries still remain, as experts believe Jim paused the recording when people dissented by calling out the hypocrisy of his teachings. In the end, Jim Jones's unchecked charisma stole nearly a thousand lives and and tore numerous families apart. His story serves as a chilling reminder of the dangers of blind faith, and that when power becomes more important than faith, innocent people pay the price. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another killer.
- [59:30]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Killer Minds is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes sense, makes a.
- [59:50]
Vanessa Richardson
Difference and to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free, along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzovsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Sarah Halle Corey, Sarah Tardif and Keri Murphy. Thank you for listening.
- [60:40]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [61:13]
Vanessa Richardson
Looking for your next Crime House listen? Don't miss Clues with Morgan Absher and Kalyn Moore. Every Wednesday, Morgan and Kaelyn take you deep into the world of the most notorious crimes ever. Clue by clue, it's like hanging out with your smart, true crime obsessed friends listen to clues on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.