Loading summary
Transcript74 lines
- [00:01]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Hey, there. We're Sabrina d' Anarroga and Corinne Vian, hosts of Crimes of. Crimes of is a weekly true crime series, with each season diving into a different theme, from unsolved murders to mysterious disappearances and the cases that haunt us most. And since it's Valentine's season, we are unpacking Crimes of Passion. When love turns into obsession, passion twists into paranoia, and jealousy drives people beyond the edge of reason. Crimes of is a Crime House original. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. New episodes every Tuesday.
- [00:44]
Vanessa Richardson
This is crime house.
- [00:50]
Annie Elise
Anyone who has experienced heartbreak knows just how hard it can be, especially when old photos and memories pop up on our screens, serving as a reminder of what we've lost. Most people try to avoid the pain. They delete the messages, maybe unfollow their ex on social media. But others lean into the past and refuse to let it go. Brenda Delgado was one of those people. For Brenda, letting go was impossible. She let her heartbreak consume her, and eventually her obsession turned deadly.
- [01:38]
Vanessa Richardson
The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and murderous minds. A Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and For the next two episodes, Dr. Engels and I are thrilled to welcome our special guest, the one and only Annie Elise.
- [02:01]
Annie Elise
Thank you so much for having me. And Hi, everyone.
- [02:04]
Dr. Tristan Engels
We are so excited to have you here, Annie. And for anyone who doesn't know her, Annie is one of the very best voices in true crime. If you're not subscribed to her YouTube channel and her podcasts, serial lessly and tend to life. Take a second and do it now. You will not regret it.
- [02:21]
Vanessa Richardson
For the next two episodes, Annie's going to introduce you to our subject, Brenda Delgado. And what makes her case so fascinating, Dr. Engels will also be sitting down with Annie for an extended conversation about the case.
- [02:34]
Annie Elise
I am so excited to be here. So let's just get into it. We're doing a deep dive on Brenda Delgado, a seemingly normal woman from Dallas, Texas, whose bad luck in love pushed her over the edge. In 2015, Brenda lost the man that she loved to another woman, someone she felt she could never compete with. Rejected and alone, Brenda took matters into her own hands and plotted the murder of her romantic rival. This case is especially fascinating to me on a personal level. I think it's because on a personal level, we've all gone through heartbreak, but obviously we don't go on to murder someone after, so I can't wait to hear what Dr. Engels thinks about all of this, because while Vanessa goes through the story, Dr. Engels will talk about things like how some criminals form delusions about their relationships with others, how those delusions cause them to cross boundaries and show early signs of criminal intent, and how they're able to rope others into their delusions as well. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?
- [03:41]
Vanessa Richardson
As spring break and a busy season approach, staying organized often means simplifying everyday decisions, including what to wear. Daily look helps Take the guesswork out of getting dressed with curated style delivered to your door. Daily look is a premium personal styling service and DailyLook is the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women. Customers are paired with a dedicated personal stylist who curates a box of clothing based on body shape preferences and lifestyle. These are real personal stylists, not an algorithm, and the same stylist works with you every time. Each box includes up to 12 premium pieces to try on at home, making it easy to find pieces that fit seamlessly into a busy spring schedule. Flexible delivery options are available every 30, 30, 60 or 90 days. Keep what you love, return the rest and enjoy free shipping both ways. Getting started is simple by taking the style quiz at DailyLook.com Elevate your style by signing up at DailyLook.com today. Take your style quiz at DailyLook.com and get 50% off your first styling fee with the code CEREAL. That's DailyLook.com code S E R I A L why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster? I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet nibbles after his untimely end.
- [05:05]
Ad Voice 1
This is very strange. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com.
- [05:11]
Vanessa Richardson
Before we get started, be advised this episode contains descriptions of gun violence and murder, so please listen with care. Brenda Delgado was the kind of person who always wanted more out of life. Shortly after she was born in 1982, Brenda's parents brought her and her four brothers from Mexico to the US. They eventually settled in Texas, just outside Dallas. Brenda watched as her parents worked hard but struggled to make ends meet. For the Delgados, security always felt just out of reach. From an early age, Brenda knew she wanted to do better for herself. She studied hard and got good grades. After school, she worked two part time jobs. Then when Brenda graduated high school in 2000. She became a dental assistant. She wanted to go to medical school one day, and it was stable work that could get her on the right path. In the meantime, Brenda saved up money for college by living with her parents and getting a second job at a high end spa. She spent a lot of time tending to wealthy clients, which only fueled her desire for her own success. But despite how much she worked, Brenda maintained a thriving social life. She dated around a little too, but she was pretty selective about the men she spent time with. Brenda was a devout Christian with hopes of starting her own family one day. As she approached her 30s, she didn't want to waste time with someone who wasn't as serious about the future. Eventually, a man caught her eye on a dating app. His name was Dr. Ricardo Paniagua and he went by Ricky. Ricky lived in Dallas. He'd earned his medical degree from Stanford University and was doing his residency in dermatology at a University of Texas medical center. His success and work ethic appealed to Brenda. Right away, they struck up a conversation and she couldn't wait to meet him. However, Ricky wasn't quite as ready for a serious relationship as Brenda was. Even though he was several years older. He was 38. He was also recently divorced and just dipping his toe back into the dating pool.
- [07:23]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It seems like they might be approaching this relationship at different emotional paces. And when that happens, or if they each have different plans or expectations for this relationship, that can create an imbalance. And that imbalance can cause pressure or disappointment or resilience, resentment on both sides. The person who's seeking commitment, in this case Brenda, may interpret the other person's ambiguity as mixed signals or maybe even potential. While the person who's moving slowly, which in this case is Ricky, may experience Brenda's energy as urgency or even intrusion. Neither is necessarily wrong, at least at this stage. They're just reacting to a situation they're misinterpreting. Or maybe they're not reacting yet because they haven't quite figured that out yet. But there's also a risk, though here of over attachment. So, for example, if Brenda is viewing Ricky as her future and she now ties her sense of security or status or even self worth to the outcome of this relationship with him, then dating him can start feeling critical for her. And that can make any uncertainty in the relationship from this point on feel threatening instead of disappointing. And if there's entitlement, or if she's over investing emotionally into Ricky and this relationship, then that can create unhealthy dynamics within.
- [08:43]
Vanessa Richardson
Seems like Brenda had always been so intentional about who she dated. Why do you think she chose to pursue Ricky even though they were in totally different places at that point in their lives?
- [08:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I mean, being selective doesn't fully protect someone from psychological vulnerability at different moments in their life, especially if their support system is limited. And major life milestones like finishing school or career transitions or approaching 30, for example, can heighten a sense of urgency about the for many people and particularly women. And that's due to long standing social, cultural, and biological narratives that are out there. There can be pressure around partnership and starting a family that doesn't affect everyone the same way. But if it does, dating can start to feel existential to certain people and in certain cases. So let's say for Brenda, if she met someone who represented stability, professional success, or had shared interest, I mean, she had similar or at least adjacent career aspirations. He may have felt like a path to the future that she was envisioning for herself. That perception can amplify attachment early, even when the other person might be signaling, like their hesitation to her. There's also the element of perceived partner value, because cultural messaging often ties status, security, and success to certain professions, and that can influence how strongly someone invests in that person emotionally. Doctors are notoriously high on that list. When hope, timing, and perceived opportunity come together like that, people can pursue a relationship more intensely than they might have at another point in their life. So that may be what's happening here with Brenda and the selectiveness that she once had before meeting Ricky.
- [10:30]
Vanessa Richardson
It wasn't like Brenda to jump at a romantic prospect. But when she and Ricky went on their first date, she quickly charmed him and they bonded over the fact that they'd both grown up working class. Shortly after, in the summer of 2012, the pair realized just how strong their connection was and officially started dating. It was a whirlwind romance. Just after three months, they decided to move in together. After Brenda got settled into Ricky's apartment, she introduced him to her parents, who loved him as much as she did, especially because he spoke to them in Spanish. Brenda and Ricky seemed to blend their lives seamlessly as the months passed and their relationship kept getting stronger. Brenda couldn't imagine her life without him. So it came as a shock when she realized they still weren't on the same page about their future. About a year into dating, in the summer of 2013, Brenda found out she was pregnant. She was thrilled. But when she told Ricky, he may not have felt the same way, because she ultimately decided to terminate the pregnancy. Brenda was crushed. At the same time, though, she knew how important financial stability was. So ultimately, she agreed. Perhaps as a way to make herself feel better about getting an abortion, she wrote an entry in the notes app on her phone about how certain she was that she and Ricky would have kids someday.
- [11:55]
Dr. Tristan Engels
All right, there's a lot here to unpack, and we have to do it objectively and sensitively Because, I mean, Brenda's already planning her future family with Ricky after having just terminated a pregnancy, and that's very significant. On the surface, it seems like she's doing this without confirming with ricky first, which can feel startling. But at the same time, Ricky didn't explicitly say to her he never wanted a family with her in the future. He said he didn't want it right now. He gave explanations that were, from what we gather, reasonable to the both of them. They are cohabitating for a year now. They're in a serious relationship, and there's no verbal or nonverbal communication given that suggests to her a future family is not something that he wants or that he's ruled out. At the same time, though, Brenda had just experienced a pregnancy and a termination, which is a very emotional event. Even when a decision feels logical or mutually agreed upon between partners, it can still cause grief and longing or a need to create meaning out of what happened. In moments like that, people might try to restore balance by constructing a future where the loss makes sense to them. So planning for children someday may have helped her frame the termination not as the end of something, but as a delay, because that could be psychologically protective to her. At this point in the story, Brenda hasn't committed a crime. She's someone who just went through an unexpected pregnancy, A very difficult decision, and a moment of emotional loss Inside a relationship that she seemingly cared about. Those are real and painful experiences. Feeling grief, confusion, or fear about the future in a moment like that Is very human. I think a lot of us can relate to that. Where cases like this turn Is in how someone responds to it, Emotional pain is common. Harmful choices are not. Experiences of loss or uncertainty in a relationship can activate fears about security and connection. But emotional vulnerability alone doesn't lead to violence.
- [14:00]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think it's possible that Brenda might have been clinging to ideas about their future because maybe deep down, she felt like this was an early sign that Ricky wasn't as committed to her as she was to him?
- [14:10]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it's definitely possible. I think she sensed the uncertainty and had been for some time. And when uncertainty feels Threatening people often try to lean into certainty. And in her case, the future became stabilizing. Something that says to her, we're still moving towards something together, even if the present doesn't feel that way. I think this is her way of trying to resolve discomfort of that uncertainty. So I think she had some level of awareness, but chose to override that with hope. Hope that might be false, but it was hope nonetheless.
- [14:42]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, despite the heartbreak she felt following her abortion, Brenda was determined to stay on the path to success, and she enrolled in dental hygiene school. She and Ricky kept moving forward, too. In early 2014, she brought him to Mexico to meet some of her relatives. Ricky also showed his commitment by giving her a promise ring. She it was starting to seem like marriage was on the horizon. But by the summer of that year, Brenda was caught off guard again. One day, Ricky sat Brenda down and told her he didn't want to be with her anymore. For Brenda, the news was completely out of the blue. And while it's unclear what his reasons were, Ricky then told Brenda she had to move out. She got her own apartment nearby, but that didn't mean she was ready to move on. Brenda was devastated. She couldn't let go of the future she'd envisioned. Without Ricky in her life, she could barely pull herself together. Things were so bad, she left school temporarily. All she could think about was getting him back. But she didn't outright ask for him to give her another chance. She wanted to show him that they were destined to be together. Even though he'd kicked her out of the apartment, Ricky seemed to forget that Brenda still had a lot of access to him. She knew his email and icloud passwords, and she started checking his accounts regularly to see what he was up to. She even downloaded an app so she could track the location of his cell phone.
- [16:10]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So what you're describing is something we would call life invasion and surveillance stalking.
- [16:15]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, pretty soon, she was tracking all of his whereabouts, and she used what she learned to stage a romantic reconnection. Brenda learned that Ricky had started taking salsa classes. One night, when he arrived at the studio, he was stunned to see her from across the room. The class was set up so everybody rotated through partners, which meant every man danced with every woman and vice versa. When it was time for Ricky and Brenda to partner up, he couldn't help but notice how her brown eyes shone under the studio lights. And as they swayed to the music, sparks flew between them.
- [16:50]
Dr. Tristan Engels
We've covered this before in our episodes on Caitlin Armstrong, but what Brenda's doing here Is very similar. Brenda, like Caitlyn, resorted to surveillance behaviors to regulate her anxiety. In this case, Brenda was doing it after the loss of her relationship with Ricky. Each time Brenda checked his accounts or his location, she was likely experiencing temporary relief because she knew for that moment where he is and what was happening with him. Unfortunately, that momentary relief only reinforces the behavior, and then she's back to monitoring his entire life. And over time, that can shift her focus from coping with the breakup and moving on to managing Ricky himself. Instead, the goal becomes regaining closeness with him or influence or even connection, all of which will likely be justified and rationalized in some way by Brenda. There's also a cognitive effect here. The more someone monitors an ex partner, the more obsessive they tend to become. Seeing new contacts that they make or that they add to their phone, new activities or signs that they're moving on, that can intensify jealousy and feelings of rejection. That tends to exacerbate the fixation and the emotional volatility. It's a self reinforcing cycle that can escalate risk. This is actually a turning point psychologically for Brenda, not because of the feeling that she's having, but because the response to the feeling has shifted from heartbreak, you know, from the loss and distress of that to full life invasion.
- [18:23]
Vanessa Richardson
I'm glad you brought up Caitlin Armstrong. So in our episode, we talked about how Caitlin surveilled her boyfriend Colin, probably from her deep sense of insecurity and lack of trust in their relationship. How might the situation be different for Brenda in this case since she was doing this after she and Ricky broke up?
- [18:41]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yeah. So with Caitlin, like you mentioned, the surveillance happened inside an ongoing relationship where her insecurity and mistrust were driving her need to monitor and control a partner that she believed that she still had a claim to. The goal for Caitlin was prevention. She wanted to stop the betrayal, confirm the loyalty in the relationship and reduce her uncertainty there while the relationship was still intact. But Brenda, in contrast, her behavior happens after the relationship has ended, which means the monitoring isn't about protecting the current relationship, it's about resisting the loss of one. And if you look at her earlier coping, there's a pattern there. So after, you know, her abortion, after the termination of her pregnancy, instead of fully confronting the uncertainty she may have felt about the relationship with Ricky in the aftermath of that loss of that very emotional event, she coped by strengthening her belief in a shape shared future with him that helped her maintain a sense of connection during an emotionally vulnerable time. We See something similar here. The relationship ends, and instead of moving on and away, she maintains a connection by intruding physically and psychologically, making sure she's part of his present and his future through monitoring, invading his life, and staying mentally connected. Her way of managing loss in her life appears to be holding on tighter, at least initially. And that suggests a pattern in how she responds to relational distress. Rather than creating distance to heal, which we tend to do, which is more of a normal response, she tries to reduce distance to regain stability.
- [20:23]
Vanessa Richardson
Brenda wanted to lure Ricky back into her life. And it actually worked. They started meeting up to practice their dancing outside of class. And soon the feelings that had always been there for Brenda came back to Ricky, too. Within a few weeks, they were back together. She couldn't wait to get back on the path they'd been on. She hoped one day soon Ricky would ask her to marry him. But that's not what happened. Ricky wanted to take things slow. He didn't ask Brenda to move back into his apartment. However, he did offer to cover some of her expenses, like her cell phone plan. He wanted to give the relationship his best effort. After about eight months, though, Ricky realized he just didn't love Brenda the way she loved him. He broke things off again, this time for good. Brenda couldn't accept the fact that it was over. They'd come too far just for her dreams to be ripped away from her again. So she kept spying on Ricky. She figured staging a run in had worked once before, so why not keep trying? Whether Ricky was out for a run or at a restaurant, Brenda bumped into him constantly. Ricky was always polite. Their encounters seemed normal to him. Not only did they live in the same neighborhood, but ever since the breakup, they'd kept in touch via text message. Nothing serious, just casual messages to check in. Brendan knew it wouldn't be as easy to get him back as it was before. No matter how often she inserted herself into his life, he never showed interest. Still, she figured it was only a matter of time him. So she kept spying on him, showing up where he was and waiting for the day he fell back under her spell. Unfortunately for Brenda, that wasn't going to happen. Instead, in the summer of 2015, she was met with an unwelcome surprise. She and Ricky hadn't spoken much over the last few weeks, and it seems like she'd stopped spying on him as much because she was dumbfounded when he texted her one day to say he was seeing someone new. He didn't tell her his new girlfriend's name, and she didn't ask. She pretended to be happy for him and told him they'd always be friends. Ricky had no idea that Brenda had been scouring his accounts, learning everything she could about the new woman in his life. On the outside, Brenda played the part of an amicable ex girlfriend. But on the inside, she was crushed by heartbreak and envy. And soon she'd realize that the only way to escape her pain would be through the ultimate act of revenge.
- [23:11]
Ad Voice 2
Confronting high credit card debt can feel scary. But the good news is if you owe $10,000 or more in credit card debt, financial relief options are now available. National Debt Relief is currently offering debt relief designed to reduce what you owe and put you on the fast track to bec debt free. If you qualify for debt relief, you may be able to pay back less than what you owe and save thousands of dollars. Just visit nationaldebtrelief.com Imagine only paying one low monthly program payment you can afford and saving money as you become debt free. National Debt Relief has already helped bring debt relief to over 550,000 US consumers, earning thousands of five star reviews and an A rating with the Better Business Bureau. You're stronger than your credit card debt. Let today be the day you start turning things around. Take the first step and visit nationaldebtrelief.com to see what debt relief you may qualify for. That's National Debt relief dot com.
- [24:07]
Ad Voice 1
Hey Sal.
- [24:08]
Vanessa Richardson
Hank, what's going on?
- [24:10]
Ad Voice 1
We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy.
- [24:14]
Ad Voice 2
Too easy.
- [24:15]
Vanessa Richardson
Think something's up?
- [24:16]
Ad Voice 1
You tell me. Thank you. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day.
- [24:24]
Ad Voice 2
It sounds like Carvana just makes it.
- [24:26]
Ad Voice 1
Easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.
- [24:31]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.
- [24:39]
Vanessa Richardson
In the summer of 2015, 33 year old Brenda Delgado learned that her ex boyfriend, Dr. Ricky Paniagua, had started seeing someone new. Ricky didn't tell Brenda much about his new girlfriend, but he didn't have to. Because as soon as Brenda got the gut wrenching news, she signed into Ricky's email and icloud accounts to learn everything she could about the woman who was ripping her life from her hands. Her name was Dr. Kendra Hatcher. She was a 35 year old pediatric dentist living in uptown Dallas in a luxury apartment building called Gables Park 17. Kendra's life was everything Brenda dreamed of. She was a successful medical professional living in an upscale, trendy part of Town. She seemed to be everything Brenda wished she could be, but could never fully achieve. Kendra had grown up in a small, close knit community in Illinois where church had always been a major part of her life. Kendra's faith was really strong. She and Brenda had that in common. However, unlike Brenda, Kendra had volunteered on church mission trips and had even traveled abroad to provide free dental care to children in need. Kendra and Ricky also shared similar life experiences. Like him, she was a young divorcee. Brenda figured they'd bonded over that. But there was clearly more to their attraction as well. Ricky seemed to view Kendra as an angel on earth. She kept in touch with all her childhood friends and she was there for them whenever they needed anything. Her, her warmth and kindness drove everything she did. Ricky was completely enamored, which Brenda had to witness through all of his messages. With Kendra. Brenda was consumed with envy. Kendra seemed like the more worldly and accomplished version of herself. She became fixated on everything Kendra had that she didn't.
- [26:38]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So comparison plays, plays such a powerful role in jealousy, especially in romantic relationships. Instead of just grieving the relationship, Brenda is measuring herself against Kendra. And that comparison becomes emotionally loaded because Kendra starts to represent everything Brenda feels she lost or fears that she lacks. This turns the breakup from a relational loss into an identity threat because she views Kendra as better than her. And when comparison reaches that level, it can distort perception. She starts viewing Kendra as the rival. And when that happens, Kendra's humanity can fade into the background and she can start to feel like a symbol rather than a person. That shift matters because it redirects emotion. Sadness and rejection can turn into resentment and blame. So instead of focusing on the end of the relationship, the mind focuses on the person, which in this case is Kendra, as the obstacle to the life that she had imagined and longed for. And when that kind of thinking combines with the survey surveillance, stalking behaviors that we've already discussed and the life invasion that she's been doing, the risk increases. Monitoring fuels comparison. Comparison fuels this resentment that's occurring. And resentment can begin to justify actions that would otherwise feel really unthinkable to someone, even like someone like Brenda.
- [28:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think Brenda would have reacted less strongly if maybe Ricky's new girlfriend wasn't so similar to her or didn't have so many of the things she wanted in life, like a successful medical career?
- [28:13]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it's certainly plausible. The intensity of jealousy and envy often depends on how personally relevant the comparison feels. So if Kendra didn't closely mirror Brenda's own personal goals, like, you know, She's a doctor. She's established. She didn't closely mirror the identity that Brenda wanted cause she was once pursuing medical career, herself or her aspirations. Then I think it wouldn't have hit the core of her sensitivities quite as hard as it did. I do think though that she would still have had an emotional reaction when she had learned that he was seeing someone new. But it may not have been as strong. That said, it's important not to overstate it. Reactions after breakups, especially strong ones, typically are a result of factors like their attachment style, how they tolerate rejection, and any existing patterns they have of control or rumination. She likely still like would have reacted with jealousy, but it just might have been a different emotional impact level.
- [29:12]
Vanessa Richardson
Brenda definitely would have benefited from putting down her phone and focusing on self care, but instead she did the opposite. Her jealousy only got worse when she no longer had to spy on Ricky because he and Kendra took their relationship public. For Brenda, that meant there were now social media posts for her to obsessively track. Seeing them take that next step had stung enough. But when Ricky started posting photos and videos of their romantic outings, including nice vacations, Brenda dove back into Ricky's accounts, hungry for all the details. She took screenshots of his texts, trip itineraries and reservations. Seems like Brenda was thinking about, quote unquote, accidentally running into them somewhere. But it doesn't appear like she ended up doing that. Instead, she kept swiping through Ricky's social media, private messages and photo albums. And all she could think was that it should be her by his side, smiling and in love. Love. The heartbreak was becoming too much for Brenda to handle. And it got worse because just a few months into their relationship, she learned that Ricky and Kendra were talking about marriage. Now it was official. Kendra had stolen the future she was supposed to have. After that, Brenda's obsessive thoughts turned violent. As her jealousy swelled into rage, she started fantasizing about ways to put an end to Ricky and Kendra's relationship, even if it meant hurting them. Brenda had never shown violent tendencies before, but the constant torment of witnessing Ricky move on seemed to cause something inside of her to spiral. Brenda didn't try to hide these thoughts either. Whenever she saw her friends, she openly talked about wanting to harm her ex and his new girlfriend, but especially Kendra. She even spoke about it with men she went on dates with. The more Brenda spiraled, the more she tried to find a way to make her dark thoughts a reality. One night, she went on a date with a man Named Roberto, who she'd known for a while. She spent the whole time at dinner talking about Ricky and Kendra. Afterwards, she asked Roberto to drop her off at a friend's house. He agreed, and Brenda directed him to Gables Park 17, where Kendra lived. They parked outside the building building. But Brenda didn't get out. Instead, she sat there staring at the building, waiting to spot Kendra. She didn't see her that night, but Brenda kept thinking about how she could strike. Shortly after, she bought a metal baseball bat and asked her cousin to threaten Kendra with it. She said she just wanted to scare her and told her cousin she'd either buy him a car or pay his child support if he did it. But he said no. So Brenda tried to find someone else to help her. She went on a date with a guy she knew from high school and asked him if he knew anyone who could, quote, hurt someone. The man was stunned and told Brenda that whatever she was thinking about doing, she should drop it for a while. It seemed like Brenda actually took his advice. Instead of spending all her time seething and stalking Ricky and Kendra online, she made made more time for her friends. She had a friend named Jennifer who was going through a rough patch with her boyfriend. So Brenda invited Jennifer to move in with her. Jennifer agreed. She thought it could be a good opportunity for both of them to get back on their feet. But as soon as she got settled in, Brenda started talking about Ricky and Kendra incessantly. Then one day, she offered to buy Jennifer drugs or even a car if she would help her kill them. Jennifer was appalled. And after that, she started avoiding Brenda. By mid August of 2015, after living with Brenda for a few weeks, Jennifer moved back out.
- [33:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So earlier we talked about comparison turning the breakup into an identity threat. If that sense of threat keeps growing, anger can become a form of self protection. One way she's using that self protection is through grievance formation. So instead of seeing this situation as a painful but mutual relationship ending, Brenda began constructing a narrative of injustice. She felt wronged by Kendra. She believed she took something from her. This happened to her. And that shift reframes her ex and the new partner from individuals with their own agency into perceived sources of harm against her. And now she's ruminating on that. She's replaying events, reviewing all the messages, and continuing with the comparison. And in very obsessive ways, chronic rumination like this, especially with life invasion and hostile thinking, exacerbates anger, and it narrows perspective. And in a mindset like that, over time, extreme solutions like homicidal Ones that she's showing here start to surface because their thinking has become so rigid and unchecked. There's also moral disengagement. As resentment grows, empathy shrinks. And although her friends are seemingly appalled at her behavior and her verbalizations, there's been no intervention. At the same time, having violent thoughts does not mean someone will act on them necessarily. Intrusive and violent thoughts can be secondary to many anxiety conditions, and they're intrusive because they're unwanted. But the danger increases when those thoughts are rehearsed, when they are wanted, when they're shared with others incessantly like this, or they start to feel justified rather than alarming. Brenda doesn't seem alarmed by these thoughts. She's looking for people to commiserate with. She wants people to buy into these thoughts with her. That's concerning. What Brenda is doing is alarming. And if she was doing this in front of a mandated reporter, we would be obligated by law to initiate Tarasov. We have a duty to protect intended victims, so law enforcement would be informed and so would Ricky and Kendra.
- [35:14]
Vanessa Richardson
Why do you think Brenda didn't get the hint or snap back to reality after so many people rejected her request for help? They told her to. To stop.
- [35:22]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think at this point, she was so entrenched in her own closed narrative loop that outside feedback was unlikely to land the way that it should when people reacted with alarm or disapproval. Like her friends, she may have interpreted that as further proof that they didn't understand how wronged she was or how wronged she felt in that mindset. Social pushback like that doesn't interrupt the thinking. It reinforces it. What she likely needed was a firm external boundary with real consequences. I'm talking law enforcement involvement, a restraining order, court oversight, and mandated treatment that could have introduced accountability and structure in a way that emotional reasoning that from friends would not be able to do at this point. Those interventions can sometimes disrupt escalating behavior because they force the person to confront reality outside their own internal narrative, the one that they've been building silently for a while now. It's leaking out. However, that said, stalking behavior has historically not always received that level of intervention early on. In many cases, the risk is underestimated until the behavior escalates or becomes overtly violent, which means opportunities for early intervention are sometimes missed. And just like they were here.
- [36:42]
Vanessa Richardson
It seems like Brenda had developed tunnel vision. All she could think about was revenge. She just needed to find someone willing to help her. And eventually, she realized that if she was going to convince someone to go along with her plan, she'd have to make it worth their while. Since Brenda didn't have much to offer, she set her sights on someone even less fortunate than herself. That person was a 23 year old single mother named Crystal Cortez, who Brenda had met through Jennifer. Shortly after Jennifer moved out, Brenda invited Crystal to dinner. She and Crystal had always gotten along well. Not only did they both work in dental offices, but Crystal looked up to Brenda. Much like how Brenda envied Kendra, Crystal envied Brenda. She had her own apartment, whereas Crystal and her son lived with her grandmother. Plus, Brenda was a step up in her career, working as a dental assistant. Compared to Crystal, who was a receptionist, Brenda was like an older version of Crystal. They even looked alike. Crystal wanted to be just like her. So when Brenda reached out, she jumped at the opportunity to spend time with her. When they went to dinner, Brenda didn't jump right into her usual rant about Ricky and Kendra. Instead, she asked Crystal how she was doing. Crystal told her about how stressed she'd been lately. It was hard being a single mother making just $11 an hour. Brenda listened intently. She showed an interest in what Crystal was going through. And after that initial get together, she invited her out a few more times. Brenda always paid for Crystal's meals, which made Crystal feel like she really cared about her and wanted to help her out. So as Brenda started venting about Ricky and Kendra more frequently, Crystal was sympathetic. Brenda could tell she'd successfully won her over. Any enemy of Brenda's was now an enemy of Crystal's too. Then one day, Brenda offered Crystal Crystal $500 if she'd help her kill Kendra. Crystal not only admired Brenda, but $500 was a lot for someone in her position. She was living paycheck to paycheck, and any amount of money could help her get her head above water. So she agreed.
- [39:00]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This is a classic recruitment scenario. Firstly, there was a power imbalance between Brenda and Crystal. Brenda was older, more established and successful, and Crystal admired her. As a result, Brenda's approval and closeness was valuable to Crystal, making her impressionable and vulnerable to influence. Crystal was also a young mother under economic strain and in some ways in her own survival mode. Brenda groomed her, built up her loyalty and exploited that. Also, she was inoculating Crystal to her emotional intensity. She was repeatedly engaging in hostile discussions about Ricky and Kendra, and over time, that can become normalized, especially to a single mother who may also have some residual resentment toward an ex of her own. So in essence, Brenda was Priming her. In that sense, Crystal wasn't necessarily someone who was inherently violent. I mean, I don't know, We've obviously never met her. But this seems more consistent with a combination of admiration, emotional manipulation, financial pressure, and normalization that made something unthinkable feel like a step by step process that was more possible.
- [40:10]
Vanessa Richardson
What can we glean from the fact that Brenda got more strategic about who she asked to help her by taking advantage of Crystal's, you know, admiration of her and her financial situation?
- [40:20]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Well, I mean, it suggests she became more instrumental in her thinking. I mean, earlier she was much more cavalier about this and it cost her relationships and friendships. Now she's becoming more selective. And to me, that indicates she's being more calculated and she's engaging in problem solving. It's goal directed behavior, even under emotional strain. And that's psychologically important because despite how intense her emotions have been and her behaviors had been in the past, she was able to remain organized, contained, strategic, and adaptive to feedback from those experiences. When others rejected her previously, she refined her approach. So it's an escalation.
- [41:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Without so much as a second thought, Brenda and Crystal started planning Kendra's murder. Pretty soon it was too late for them to turn back and their shared delusion would bring tragedy to the city of Dallas. And when we return, Annie Elise will sit down with Dr. Engels to take a deeper look into the psychology behind ordinary jealousy and pathological obsession.
- [41:29]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Foreign.
- [41:34]
Ad Voice 3
A year from today, what would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had a network to reach out to for questions or free continuing education? What if you had more time for yourself? ALMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed up by an all in one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation and day to day practice operations. With a network of engaged providers and free CE resources, ALMA makes it easy for you to build the practice of your dreams on your terms. Alma believes that when therapists get the support they need, mental health care gets better for everyone. Learn more about Alma@helloalma.com getstarted your dream practice Practice is closer than you think. Get started now@helloalma.com get started.
- [42:33]
Ad Voice 1
It's tax season. And at Lifelock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.
- [43:03]
Dr. Tristan Engels
On June 11, 1998, a deputy from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department went missing.
- [43:09]
Vanessa Richardson
Hey, if they'll kill a cop and.
- [43:10]
Ad Voice 1
Bury him, what are they gonna do to me?
- [43:13]
Dr. Tristan Engels
What really happened to the missing deputy? Valley of Shadows, a new series from Pushkin Industries about crime and corruption in California's high desert. Listen to Valley of Shadows wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're going to get back into Brenta Delgado, but for a moment, Annie and I are going to have a conversation about jealousy versus pathological jealousy.
- [43:43]
Annie Elise
So lots of people feel jealousy after a breakup. But what makes jealousy pathological?
- [43:48]
Dr. Tristan Engels
In cases like this, normal or healthy jealousy can be uncomfortable. We've all felt it, but it's flexible. A person might feel hurt or go through a normal grieving process, or they check their ex's Instagram and compare themselves, maybe to their new partner, but they can still accept reality and eventually move on. But pathological jealousy, on the other hand, becomes. Becomes fixated and consuming. The person can't disengage. Their thoughts become hostile and rigid, and they often begin experiencing feelings of entitlement or even injustice. And behaviorally, pathological jealousy crosses boundaries. It can show up as surveillance, like Brenda obsession, attempts to control or even retaliation.
- [44:30]
Annie Elise
So you brought up a great point. And when jealousy becomes entitlement, what changes psychologically?
- [44:36]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think the emotion shifts in those cases from being hurt to ownership. So instead of feeling sad about losing someone, which is really normal and very common, the person starts believing that they deserve that relationship. And psychologically, this can reduce empathy, and it reframes that feeling of rejection as an injustice rather than a choice. And the other person's autonomy matters less to them, and the focus becomes restoring what feels owed to them. So that can make harmful or controlling behavior in that case feel justified because the person's now focused on trying to correct what they see as wrong behavior. Feelings of being wronged.
- [45:19]
Annie Elise
That's a really interesting point, and I think it makes so much sense. I would also say I'm speaking for myself here and maybe some other listeners. I feel like many of us as women have compared ourselves on social media to a current girlfriend or the current wife or whoever it may be. And that's obviously uncomfortable. But what are the early warning signs that jealousy is maybe becoming dangerous?
- [45:41]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Warning Signs, I would say when jealousy is entering dangerous territory is when it becomes obsessive or when the person can't stop thinking about their ex or their ex's new partner. And if they view that partner as some kind of rival, or if there's boundary violations, like in Brenda's case, the surveillance behavior, that's certainly a warning sign. That's not normal behavior because it extended beyond just looking at the Instagram account. If they're showing up uninvited, that's life invasion, or trying to control their contact with that person. And of course, entitlement thinking if they're acting as if the relationship is something that's owed to them. You may also see increasing anger or projection of blame, especially directed at the new partner, talking about revenge or statements that suggest they can't live without them or that they feel that their ex has ruined their life in some way. So when jealousy becomes about fixation or control and justification for harm, I think that's when we really are entering dangerous territory and it warrants more concern. All right, Annie, I look forward to having more conversations with you in episode two. But for right now, let's get back into Brenda Delgado.
- [46:54]
Vanessa Richardson
By late summer 2015, 33 year old Brenda Delgado could no longer endure the pain of losing the man she loved, Dr. Ricky Paniagua, to another woman, Dr. Kendra Hatcher. Brenda wanted to kill Kendra, and she'd enlisted the help of 23 year old Crystal Cortez to help her do it. They decided to carry it out at Kendra's apartment building. The upscale residence was in a nice part of Dallas, lined with cafes, fitness studios and restaurants. A lot of young professionals lived there, and they all felt safe. If Brenda and Crystal could ambush Kendra where she felt comfortable, she'd have her guard down. So they parked outside her building one day and waited for her to leave. Once they spotted her, they trailed her for the entire rest of the day. They did this a few days in a row to get a sense of her routine. Brenda even bought night vision binoculars so they could follow her at night. Once they felt like they knew all of Kendra's driving and walking routes, they decided that the easiest way to kill her would be to shoot her. Her. They went to a sporting supply store to buy a weapon. But while they were there, they realized they were in over their heads. Neither of them had ever shot a gun. Plus the purchase would be too easy to trace. Brenda said they needed to find someone with more experience who already owned a firearm. That's when Crystal thought of the perfect person. Christopher Love was in his early 30s. She knew him through one of her neighbors. She also knew about his long criminal record, including six violent offenses such as aggravated robbery. At the time, Christopher was a small time marijuana dealer with hopes of building a true criminal enterprise. He wanted to become the biggest drug dealer in Texas. And apparently next on his list of ventures was starting a prostitution ring. In late August 2020, 2015, Crystal and Brenda drove to Christopher's apartment to talk to him. After Crystal introduced them, Brenda told Christopher she had connections to powerful criminals, including members of the Mexican cartel.
- [49:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Brenda was clearly adapting her strategy to her audience. The fact that she could shift from emotional appeals with Crystal to status and power appeals with Christopher shows social awareness and psychological leverage. She understood what motivated each person and adjusted her approach accordingly. And what this tells us is that we're now seeing a more instrumental side of Brenda. We've been seeing it, but it's getting more strategized. Earlier, her behavior was driven by emotional distress and grievance. Here her actions are again organized, strategic and goal directed. That's because she's recruiting again. It's possible that these manipulative skills didn't emerge overnight. In fact, it's likely they didn't. Many people develop the ability, ability to read others and tailor their behavior long before it's used for something criminal like this. It's possible and likely that it was used even when she was dating Ricky. We certainly saw it emerging when that relationship dissolved. The same skills that can help someone build relationships can also be used to manipulate when the goal shifts from connection to control. So this marks an important psychological transition in the the case because we're no longer just looking at someone overwhelmed by emotion. We're looking at someone channeling those emotions into action. But what's more chilling about this is just how comfortable she is with this level of deception and with what she is trying to be deceptive about. Laying claims like that, about having ties to the Mexican cartel, to someone who is actively engaged in criminal activity and has been for some time, including drug sales, is very bold and very risky. But she doesn't seem to really consider that in the moment.
- [50:57]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think on some level Brenda actually liked pretending to have high level criminal connections? And if she did, why would she get enjoyment out of this fantasy?
- [51:06]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yeah, I think it's possible. And if that was the case, the motive for that would more likely than not be due to a need to feel powerful and in control. And there's a number of reasons why she would need to feel that. 1. It keeps her control over Crystal, who already looks up to her. Two, it convinces Christopher of her credibility, or at least that's what she's hoping. But perhaps more importantly, at the core, it's identity repair. What happened with Ricky and Kendra was likely leaving her feeling insignificant and powerless, or even irrelevant. So positioning herself as someone with access to powerful criminals creates a narrative where she is no longer powerless or irrelevant. If Crystal will look up to her, if people will fear her, if she can get a criminal like Christopher to follow her, then perhaps Ricky and Kendra will fear her, too. So if there was any enjoyment about this, it was about feeling powerful instead of rejected, or influential instead of discarded. And in control instead of feeling helpless.
- [52:14]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, Brenda seemed to be having a good time making her violent fantasies a reality. She also knew that in order to get Christopher on board, she had to offer him something concrete. So she told him that if he would be the one to pull the trigger, she'd not only help him climb the criminal ladder, but she'd pay him in drugs and cash. Christopher eagerly accepted. Then he showed Brenda his.40 caliber Smith Wesson. Brenda was pleased, and the three of them sat down to designate roles. Since Brenda was the organizer and the one with motive, she said she'd have to be elsewhere during the murder in order to establish an alibi. Christopher had already agreed to act as the trigger man, which meant Crystal would serve as the getaway driver. Ricky and Kendra were oblivious to what Brenda was plotting. In fact, they were preoccupied with planning a romantic long weekend getaway in Cancun at the start of September. They had plans to leave on the third. When Brenda discovered their plans while spying on Ricky's accounts, she was furious. Her rage only intensified when Ricky sent her a message. He wanted her to know that he was leaving Dallas for a new job in California. Not only that, but he was kicking her off his phone plan. He was cutting ties. But Brenda couldn't let that happen. She decided to carry out the murder as soon as possible. She needed Kendra gone before she and Ricky could go to Cancun together. It seemed like the kind of trip where Ricky might propose. Instead, Brenda wanted to get rid of Kendra and be Ricky's shoulder to cry on.
- [53:55]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Brenda's showing a distinct pattern of not just exploiting people's vulnerabilities, but strategically adjusting how she presents herself based on their unmet needs. So with Crystal, she recognized financial strength and emotional isolation, and she positioned herself as this supportive friend and source of stability. She also tried to rescue Crystal from those things. With Christopher, she presented Herself as connected, incredible and aligned with his criminal ambitions. And now with Ricky, she appears to be trying to position herself as a source of comfort for an emotional loss that she is herself trying to create. What makes this pattern significant is is that her interactions are becoming increasingly instrumental. Again, instead of relating to people as individuals with their own needs and autonomy, she's relating to them based on how they fit into her goals. The Persona shifts depending on what will be most persuasive, most trusted, or most needed in the moment. That's where the manipulation comes in. This is influence designed to create emotional leverage. She isn't just responding to each person different vulnerabilities. She's incorporating their vulnerabilities into her strategies.
- [55:10]
Vanessa Richardson
Why do you think she's so sure that doing away with Kendra will automatically make Ricky turn to her?
- [55:17]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it's because she's thinking with emotion rather than logic. If Kendra is removed, there's a vacancy and she can be the replacement. That's what she's thinking. Almost in the same way, when she saw a vacancy when Ricky was taking dance classes and she signed up and she filled in as a, quote, accidental dance partner, that proximity, even though it was designed and intentional on her part, led to reconciliation. Even if it was a brief one, it still was successful and it was a strategy that succeeded for her. It's also worth considering the potential for misreading familiarity as destiny with Ricky. She may be equating their history because they did have, you know, a long history together. They had a pregnancy and a loss, and she's equating that and her emotional investment with a destined future. Similarly, she also be engaging in a common cognitive distortion known as emotional reasoning. That's when an individual believes that their feelings are proof of reality. So if we apply that, then if she feels that they are meant to be together, it must therefore be true. And this may very well be a distortion she's been engaging in for some time when it comes with Ricky. Because after all, her perception of their relationship has not been consistent with Ricky's reality.
- [56:35]
Vanessa Richardson
For some time, there was no stopping Brenda now. On September 2, 2015, the day before Ricky and Kendra were supposed to go to Cancun, she told Crystal and Christopher that it was time to kill Dr. Kendra Hatcher. First, Brenda and Crystal borrowed a black Jeep Cherokee from Brenda's friend Jose Ortiz, who owned an auto shop. Jose had no idea idea that Crystal was planning to use it as the getaway car. They didn't want to use Brenda's car because they knew how easy it would be to trace back to her. When crystal drove off to pick up Christopher, Brenda took steps to secure her alibi. She went to the public library to study for her upcoming dental hygiene licensing exam. By now, she'd returned to school and was planning to graduate soon. In Brenda's mind, by the time Ricky came running back to her, her, she'd be more successful than she was before. When she was done studying, One of Brenda's classmates, who'd also been at the library, Drove her to a nearby chili's restaurant, where she had dinner with Jose. Meanwhile, Crystal and Christopher were parked outside Kendra's dental office in the black jeep. They waited there for hours until that evening when they finally saw her leave the building, get into her own car, and drive off. Off. They trailed her all the way back to the parking garage at Park Gable 17. Crystal parked the jeep a few spots away from Kendra's, and Christopher slipped on a pair of gloves, Grabbed his pistol, and got out. He approached Kendra right as she was getting out of her own car. Before Kendra realized what was happening, Christopher aimed his pistol at the back of her head and pulled the trigger. Kendra fell to the ground. Found she was dead. Then Christopher ran over to her lifeless body and grabbed her purse. He left her car door open before darting back to the jeep. He curled up in the back seat to stay hidden, and Crystal peeled out of the garage. Once they'd fled the scene, Crystal spoke to Brenda on the phone and told her it was done. Brenda told Crystal to drive to Jose's house so she could give him back his jeep and she and Christopher could receive pain payment.
- [58:52]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It's interesting that they involved Jose because he provided the getaway car, and that's a risk, and it's not uncommon because many offenders think that this actually distances them more from the risk of getting caught. Like it's an added layer of protection or insulation when the vehicle isn't in their name, or because they're not physically present at the scene of the crime. But each person involved is a witness, a link, and a source of information. Each person involved is a risk that could crack under pressure. What it often comes down to is overconfidence, creating a blind spot or several. And again, it's quite common. It happens in a lot of different offenses with a lot of different offenders.
- [59:34]
Vanessa Richardson
Brenda truly believed she knew exactly what she was doing. And as a final way to secure her alibi, before leaving the restaurant, she folded her receipt and tucked it neatly into her wallet. Then she and Jose returned to his house. House. She met Crystal and Christopher outside when they pulled up, and as soon as she saw Kendra's purse on the seat next to Crystal, Brenda grabbed it up and casually slung it over her shoulder. She paid Crystal and Christopher what she'd promised them. Then they went their separate ways. In their minds, they just pulled off the perfect crime. But they had no idea that as police responded to the scene at Park Gable 17, they'd quickly find a key piece of evidence. And when Brenda found herself under the interrogation lights, she'd waste no time betraying the very people who'd helped her. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time with Annie Elise as we conclude our deep dive.
- [60:47]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Into Brenda Delgado Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House Original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media Crime House don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and.
- [61:11]
Vanessa Richardson
To enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzovsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Bachelor, Inez Renike, Sarah Tardif and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.