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- [00:07]
Podcast Host/Announcer
This is Crime House.
- [00:12]
Vanessa Richardson
Most people can remember a moment when something didn't feel right, a detail that didn't add up, or a gut feeling that wouldn't go away. For decades in a small town in England, people had a bad feeling about their local doctor, Harold Shipman. But for years, people ignored or brushed aside their own misgivings. He was someone to trust, someone who took care of everyone. And in the process, Harold was able to fly under the radar, committing atrocious crimes with no one the wiser. Until one day when Harold went after the wrong family and all the secrecy he'd built up around himself came crashing down. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. The this is Serial Killers and Murderous A Crime House Original I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [01:25]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history. Analyzing what makes a killer Crime House
- [01:35]
Vanessa Richardson
is made possible by you. Please rate, review and follow serial Killers and murderous minds to enhance your listening experience with ad. Free early access to each two part series and bonus content. Subscribe to Crime House on Apple Podcasts. Before we get started, be advised this episode contains descriptions of death and medical abuse. Please listen with care. Today we conclude our deep dive on Dr. Harold Shipman, the most prolific serial killer in British history. Harold was a family doctor who earned the trust of everyone in his small town. No one had any clue how dangerous he was until Harold left behind a single bewildering clue.
- [02:21]
Dr. Tristan Engels
As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some criminals use professional authority to gain trust from others, how their own hubris can be their undoing, and how betrayal by a trusted figure can fracture not just individuals, but entire communities.
- [02:40]
Vanessa Richardson
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- [04:06]
Hank
Hank.
- [04:07]
Podcast Host/Announcer
What's going on?
- [04:08]
Hank
We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana and it was so easy. Too easy. Think something's up? You tell me. They got thousands of options, found a great car at a great price and it got delivered the next day. It sounds like Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank. Yeah, you're right. Case closed.
- [04:29]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply.
- [04:36]
Vanessa Richardson
By the summer of 1998, 52 year old Dr. Harold Shipman had killed about 200 of his patients by injecting them with diamorphine. And no one except him knew how they had really died. For six years Harold had run a busy general practitioner's clinic in the town of Hyde, England. Harold was deeply trusted and his practice was well regarded. Most of Harold's patients were elderly women. In a town with an aging population, death was familiar. So when he cited natural causes as the reason for his victims deaths, no one questioned him. His latest victim was 73 year old Joan Melia. On the outside it had seemed like Joan passed suddenly after coming down with pneumonia. In reality, she'd gone to Harold for help and he killed her. Just two weeks later, Harold struck again. On June 24, 1998, 81 year old Kathleen Grundy received a visit from Harold. Kathleen lived alone in a 17th century cottage a short walk from the town center. She'd been there for decades and had even been the town's mayor at one point. Everyone knew how much she loved to tend to her garden and go on long walks. Kathleen was also quite social. Three times a week she ran a luncheon club for older residents. Friends described her as the life and soul of the party. Harold was planning to go to Kathleen's house to take a blood sample from her. She just returned from vacation and had a lot to catch up on. So she appreciated his flexibility. That morning Kathleen was home alone waiting for her doctor. And by that afternoon she was mysteriously absent from the luncheon club. Her friends called her, but Kathleen didn't pick up. So two friends went to her cottage and let themselves in. They found Kathleen in the living room, lying on the sofa, fully dressed. At first, she looked like she was asleep, but they became worried when they noticed her skin looked unnaturally gray. They called Dr. Shipman right away. Harold quickly arrived and told them he'd seen Kathleen earlier that morning, just to chat and catch up. Now he told them she'd suddenly died of natural causes. It was the same thing he noted in her patient records and on her death certificate that very same day. Harold never tried to resuscitate Kathleen, nor did he call an ambulance. Her friends believed that was because he was telling the truth and there was simply nothing he could do.
- [07:11]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This is something that resonates with me from an ethical standpoint, because psychologists operate under many of the same dynamics. We're also placed in positions of trust. People share their most personal thoughts, their fears, their trauma, things that they may not tell anyone else. And with that level of access comes a very serious ethical, ethical responsibility. In small communities like this, there's often a supply and demand issue. Sometimes there may be only one psychologist or one doctor or one clinician in general, available for miles and miles. Because of that, the boundaries between professional and personal life can become less clear. You may run into your own patients at the grocery store. You might know their relatives, or maybe you even grew up with some of them, or you're the only provider that they can really holistically access. Ethical codes recognize that reality. But these circumstances can actually place an even greater burden on the professional. When you are the only provider, or when the community depends on you, the power imbalance is amplified, not reduced. People know you. They see you everywhere you go. And just like they knew Kathleen and they knew about her and her garden and her social clubs, this can cause people to trust you as the provider more, question you less, and rely on you more heavily because they don't have alternatives. So ethically, it means that as providers, we have to be even more mindful of boundaries, transparency, and accountability. Cases like this highlight why ethical safeguards from our licensing boards matter, laws from our states matter, and how devastating it can be when that trust is abused. But at the same time, this is likely why Harold chose the town of Hyde to begin with. It offered opportunity, it had a lack of. Of oversight, and it had a lot of accessibility for him.
- [09:11]
Vanessa Richardson
How can knowing someone personally interfere with that critical judgment?
- [09:16]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I talked about this in episode one a little. But knowing someone personally can cause biases that override critical judgment, like the halo effect, which is what I spoke about before. But familiarity bias is another. When a provider is someone familiar to us, we are more likely to assume good intentions and give them the benefit of the doubt. That can make it harder to notice red flags, question and inconsistencies, or notice that their behavior is harmful. Our prior experiences with them shape our expectations, and those expectations could override objectivity. Word of mouth is also a large part of that as well. Challenging someone we know personally can feel uncomfortable, especially when they come with assumed trust and a respected reputation. It may create tension. It can threaten the relationship, which, as we discussed, is a dependent relationship if he's one of the only, if not the only, physician in town or. Or it can disrupt a sense of harmony in the community. It's a small community that can cause people to suppress doubts or rationalize their concerns because they want to avoid conflict or not be an alarmist.
- [10:26]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, nothing about Kathleen's passing seemed suspicious until her daughter started asking questions. Angela Grundy was in charge of handling her mother's affairs. Kathleen had always been organized. She kept meticulous records and spoke openly about her plans for her passing. Angela expected the process to be straightforward, but she was in shock when she read her mother's will. The first thing that stuck out to Angela was that it was dated June 10, 1998, just two weeks before she died. However, that was the least surprising thing because Kathleen had apparently left her entire Estate to Dr. Harold Shipman, nothing to Angela or Kathleen's two grandsons, not even a penny to the charities Kathleen cared deeply about. Not only that, but the language was much sloppier than what a will should be, especially for someone as precise as Kathleen. It was like she hadn't even written it. And as Angela kept reading, she started to wonder if that was actually the case, because the document listed the cottage as Kathleen's sole property, when in fact she owned more then when Angela got to the end, she felt a pit in her stomach. The signature at the bottom looked nothing like her mother's. Kathleen racked her brain for a possible explanation, but the more she thought about it, the more concerned she became. Kathleen hadn't mentioned to anyone that she was updating her will, and she usually kept Angela up to date on these matters. Angela feared that someone was trying to defraud their family, and worse, that her mother had been killed as a result. But she was a lawyer, so she knew she had to be absolutely sure something was wrong before she went to the Police. So she went to the bank and requested to see her mother's records. She brought the will with her so she could compare signatures, and they didn't match. After that, Angela tracked down the witnesses listed in the will. They confirmed they had signed something at Dr. Shipman's office, but at the time, they didn't know what it really was.
- [12:36]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Let's talk about what Angela was likely going through, because our listeners, and honestly even me hearing this story, can probably imagine a piece of that experience. When something feels seriously wrong, the nervous system often shifts into threat response mode. Grief alone is already a heavy emotional state. It usually involves shock, sadness and disorientation. But when suspicion or a sense of betrayal enters the picture, the brain now has to process the possibility that something harmful, or in this case, criminal, may have occurred as well. That combination can create a lot of unease, confusion and urgency. Physiologically, the body may move into fight or flight response. People might feel a pit in their stomach, racing thoughts, difficulty sleeping, or just a constant sense that something isn't right. And when that the suspected wrongdoing involves someone who is trusted, it can intensify that emotional impact. It challenges a person's basic assumptions about safety or authority and the people they rely on. It's really deeply unsettling and a lot to manage emotionally.
- [13:52]
Vanessa Richardson
Kathleen's daughter Angela is a lawyer. So how might professional training help someone, you know, slow down, regulate that fear and choose a careful next step instead of reacting emotionally in that moment?
- [14:05]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I mean, for starters, she was able to obviously recognize that something felt off and was able to slow down enough to avoid acting on raw emotion. Instead, she understood that she needed to build a case and gather evidence before taking things further. And that's likely her professional training at work. It's a procedural style of thinking, and that kind of approach can actually help regulate the nervous system. When someone shifts into problem solving mode, it replaces uncertainty with action, which can restore a sense of control. And in situations like this, even that small sense of control can be very grounding. In the moment.
- [14:46]
Vanessa Richardson
It was clear to Angela her mother's new will had been forged. So she went to the police. Her complaint landed on the desk of Detective Inspector Stan Egerton of the Greater Manchester Police. Egerton was an old school investigator with 30 years on the job. He believed in patience, procedure, and getting the facts right. He was exactly the man for the job. As Egerton read through the file, he quickly realized this was not an inheritance dispute. Harold Shipman had been Kathleen's doctor, not her family member. So why Would she leave everything to him? Not only that, but Harold was well regarded, and Kathleen hadn't fit the mold of a typical fraud victim. Prior to her death. She was active and sharp of mind in Egerton's eyes. Nothing about the case fit neatly, but he didn't want to jump to conclusions. So he started digging deeper into Kathleen's affairs. And in doing so, he learned something troubling about Harold. Apparently, another local doctor had raised concerns with the coroner about an unusually high number of deaths among Harold's patients. Not only that, but Harold always seemed to be present when his patients died, which was rare for general practitioners. After the complaint was filed, there had been a brief inquiry. It found that Harold had always submitted the right paperwork and listed a valid medical explanation for each death. The inquiry found no wrongdoing, and the case was closed. But for Detective Egerton, the circumstances were puzzling. There had to be more to the story. He was becoming suspicious that Harold had committed something worse than fraud alone. While he had no concrete evidence, Egerton was afraid that Harold had killed Kathleen for her money.
- [16:36]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So it sounds like Detective Egerton had a gut feeling. What we call a gut feeling is actually the brain's way of rapidly processing patterns based on experience. And Detective Egerton's job is to look for patterns. He's seen thousands of cases. He knows how to recognize when something doesn't fit a typical pattern. That kind of intuition can prompt an investigator to look more closely, ask more questions questions, or reopen a cold case. Even this has allowed cases to advance that were previously overlooked, like this one. But there can also be risks to that. If a gut feeling is followed without evidence, it can lead to tunnel vision or confirmation bias or wrongful accusations. The investigator may start interpreting every detail as proof of what they already suspect. On the other hand, if those instincts are ignored, completely legitimate warning signs can be missed, and serious crimes could go undetected.
- [17:32]
Vanessa Richardson
Why would it be easier to suspect someone of a financial crime than a violent crime? Does denial factor into this at all?
- [17:39]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it's easier because financial crimes like fraud or theft feel more psychologically plausible. But also it's comfortable. Greed, debt or opportunity are explanations that fit more comfortably within our everyday expectations of human behavior. Violent crime is different. It forces us to confront the idea that someone they trusted or even admired maybe capable of extreme harm. That can create cognitive dissonance because the accusation doesn't match the image they have of Dr. Shipman. And that can put people into denial. And in the case of Harold, as we've discussed previously, his professional identity and his authority can influence even detectives, too. People tend to give him the benefit of the doubt from his own medical institution, his community, and his own family. Law enforcement can also not be immune to those biases. So it really comes down to what people are emotionally ready to believe. And thankfully, though, this detective sounds like someone who knows when to push.
- [18:44]
Vanessa Richardson
Detective Egerton was at a fork in the road. He could pursue the will forgery on its own and treat it as a contained financial crime. Or he could take an unprecedented step, one that would push the investigation stakes even higher. Egerton chose the latter. Soon he'd know once and for all that the truth wasn't buried in paperwork or witness statements. It was buried underground. And once it surfaced, nothing about this case would stay hidden much longer.
- [19:18]
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- [20:06]
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- [20:37]
Vanessa Richardson
In the summer of 1998, Detective Inspector Stan Egerton had started looking into Dr. Harold Shipman for possible fraud. Soon, Egerton reached the frightening conclusion that Dr. Shipman Egerton may have killed one of his own patients in order to inherit her wealth. To know for sure, the authorities would have to confirm how Kathleen Grundy had actually died. So Egerton requested to have her body exhumed. Exhumations were rare at the time. If this one was approved, it would be the first one ever ordered by the Greater Manchester Police. The coroner weighed the evidence, the family's concerns, and the potential impact on the community, and. And in the end, he approved the request. In the early hours of August 1, 1998, Detective Egerton and his team gathered at Hyde Chapel Cemetery. Soon, Kathleen Grundy, who had been buried just weeks before, was above ground again. Egerton watched silently as she was lifted from what was supposed to be her final resting place. He knew he'd followed procedure and done everything by the book. Still, the question remained. What if it was all for nothing? But the alternative was worse, because if foul play was uncovered, it would mean something unthinkable had happened, not just to Kathleen, but inside a community that trusted its doctor completely.
- [22:02]
Dr. Tristan Engels
A decision to exhume is especially heavy because it affects the family, the community, and the reputation of law enforcement and all involved. It can feel like a lose lose situation because on one side, like you mentioned, there's the fear. They did all of this on a suspicion that doesn't lead anywhere. In a small community, that impact can be especially profound because people knew her personally and felt connected to her. She was beloved by what you described, but at the same time, so was Harold. This is truly a difficult position. On the other side is the possibility that the suspicion is correct and that something far more serious has been uncovered. That realization can be just as heavy because that means something much more sinister and possibly ongoing has happened or been happening. And everyone will begin questioning every loss that community has had that connects to Harold, and rightfully so. But that's such a devastating betrayal that won't be easy to process. Ultimately, though, it comes down to ethical responsibility. Investigators are tasked with tolerating uncertainty and making difficult decisions for justice. The pressure comes from knowing that either outcome carries consequences. But choosing not to act could allow something far more serious to not just remain hidden, but potentially happen again. And sadly, either outcome is going to have an impact on this community.
- [23:30]
Vanessa Richardson
The post mortem began later that morning, and the initial findings were bittersweet. There were no obvious signs of foul play. Kathleen's heart was sound. There was no stroke, no embolism. Nothing to explain why an active, independent woman had died so suddenly. On the one hand, that could mean she died naturally and perhaps without pain. On the other hand, it could mean a lack of closure and not to mention financial fallout for her family. Fortunately, that wasn't the end of the investigation or even the examination. Tissue samples were sent for toxicology testing that same day. The results would take weeks. In the meantime, Egerton and his team pressed forward. Even if the test results were incriminating, they wouldn't be enough to press charges. So detectives obtained warrants on Harold's home and office. He cooperated fully, and during the search of his home, officers found something that stood out. Small amounts of diamorphine stashed away.
- [24:35]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Offenders behave differently under pressure when they know that law enforcement is potentially onto them, and it depends on different factors. Generally, though, their behavior is a mix of self preservation, control or impression management. How that shows up varies, with some individuals showing anxiousness and erratic behavior. And others, especially those who are more calculated or accustomed to manipulating situations, may do the opposite. They can appear calm, cooperative, and compliant because they understand that their behavior is being observed. Staying composed can be a strategy to avoid raising suspicion or to maintain an image, which in Harold's case, is one that he's curated for some time. There's also a psychological component. If someone has gotten away with misconduct repeatedly like Harold, they may develop a sense of confidence or invincibility. That mindset can lead them to believe they can talk their way out of trouble, or that the evidence won't be strong enough to implicate them, or that their reputation is enough.
- [25:39]
Vanessa Richardson
Diamorphine was found in his home. What does Harold's calm demeanor suggest about his mentality at this point? Do you think he might have actually prepared himself mentally for a potential investigation?
- [25:50]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think that he likely had expected that this would eventually be questioned, maybe not necessarily from law enforcement, but from someone, whether his wife or colleagues or medical board. So he likely already had an explanation rehearsed for this, like, for example, the rationalization that he's a doctor and that it's not unusual for him to have medications like this in his home, especially if he primarily provides home healthcare and travels. This kind of questioning isn't new to him either. He's been through this before, which we covered in episode one, and he likely learned from that experience as well.
- [26:29]
Vanessa Richardson
The diamorphine obviously raised alarms for Egerton. However, since Harold was a doctor, he was allowed to possess a certain amount of the drug. So at the time, Egerton couldn't confiscate the diamorphine or treat it as a clue. However, that all changed when the toxicology results came back. Egerton was stunned to learn that Kathleen Grundy had lethal levels of diamorphine in her system when she died, Far beyond anything that could be explained by medical treatment. She hadn't died naturally. She had died from an overdose. And Dr. Shipman had done it to her intentionally. Another frightening question arose for Egerton. If Dr. Shipman had done this to Kathleen, who else might he have done it to? Was Kathleen his sole victim? Or was she part of a larger, deadly pattern? To try and answer that question, Egerton and his colleagues went through Harold's patient records in full. They worked methodically, combing through medical notes, timelines, and death certificates. They paid close attention to cases ruled as natural causes, especially sudden deaths that occurred at home shortly after Shipman had visited. One name stood out almost immediately. Joan Melia. She had died just days before. Kathleen Grundy. The circumstances looked familiar, the paperwork looked clean. And her death had raised no alarms at the time.
- [27:58]
Dr. Tristan Engels
When an offender commits offenses close together like this, it suggests a shift in their perceived risk or sense of control. In some cases, they could be in an acute criminal spin. In many serial cases, there's an early period where the offender moves more cautiously. But if those acts go undetected, the lack of consequences can become reinforcing. The offender can begin to feel more confident in their methods or their environment and their ability to avoid suspicion. So in turn, that can shorten the gap between offenses. That's the process of escalation. The behavior becomes more normalized in the offender's mind, and whatever hesitation or caution they had before decreases. There's also a risk taking component. As confidence grows, the offender may start to believe they're untouchable or that their position protects them. That can lead to more frequent acts, even though the risk of detection is actually increasing at the same time.
- [29:01]
Vanessa Richardson
On paper, Joan Melia's death made sense. But after learning how Kathleen Grundy had really died, Egerton began to read Joan's file differently. He compared Joan's records with Kathleen's toxicology results and wondered if diamorphine had been involved in her death, too. And he knew there was only one way to find out. He'd have to exhume her body, too. Egerton had already ordered the first exhumation in the region's history. Now he would try and order the second. Detectives built their case carefully. Just like with Kathleen. They gathered Joan's medical records. They confirmed timelines and documented Harold Shipman's involvement in her career. Eventually, the exhumation was approved and Joan's body was removed from the earth. If Joan's postmortem showed signs of diamorphine poisoning. It would confirm that the medical system hadn't failed once, but repeatedly. And that's exactly what happened. Because when the results came back, they showed that fatal amounts of diamorphine had been found in Joan Milia's body. Now Egerton knew exactly who he was dealing with. A doctor who killed his own patients. With evidence mounting and suspicion no longer confined to a single victim, investigators turned their focus to the one place that might reveal the full Harold's office. But this time, they weren't looking for stashes of hidden drugs. They wanted to comb through his record records. Since 1993, Harold had used a medical record system called Microdoc. At the time, many medical offices were computerizing their systems. It made record keeping faster and easier. But Harold had other reasons to prefer digital records over paper ones. They allowed him to go back and change the information on his victims charts. He'd often add symptoms and change the date and time. Unlike with handwritten notes, there was no sign that he'd altered things. So when Egerton and his team showed up to seize his computer, Harold was completely nonchalant. But he had no idea just how much evidence he'd actually left behind.
- [31:24]
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- [31:54]
Podcast Host/Announcer
It's the Paradise Podcast.
- [31:56]
Ryan Michele Bathe
I am your host, Ryan Michele Bathe with my husband Sterling.
- [32:00]
Podcast Host/Announcer
What's up?
- [32:01]
Ryan Michele Bathe
Join us here on Hulu and Hulu on Disney where we'll each episode with the cast and crew of Paradise. I'll be getting all the secrets from Dan Fogelman, James Marsden, Shailene Woodley, Julianne Nicholson and Sterling Kelby Brown. Paradise. The official podcast is now streaming and
- [32:19]
Podcast Host/Announcer
stream paradise on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [32:25]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi, listeners, it's Vanessa Richardson. I wanted to take a brief moment to tell you about another show from Crime House that that I know you'll love. America's Most Infamous Crimes, hosted by Katie Ring. Each week, Katie takes on a notorious crime, whether unfolding now or etched into American history, revealing not just what happened, but how it forever changed our society. Serial killers who terrorized cities. Unsolved mysteries that keep detectives up at night. And investigations that change the way we think about just justice. Each case unfolds across multiple episodes, released every Tuesday through Thursday, from the first sign that something was wrong to the moment the truth came out or didn't. These are the stories behind the headlines. Listen to and follow America's most infamous crimes Tuesday through Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. By the late summer of 1998, Detective Inspector Stan Egerton had confirmed the unthinkable. Dr. Harold Shipman had murdered at least two of his own patients using diamorphine. Kathleen Grundy and Joan Melia. With evidence pointing to a pattern rather than an anomaly, investigators widened their focus to figure out who else may have fallen into Harold's trap app. They searched his office once again. When detectives looked through everything, they immediately noticed something strange. All of the metadata associated with Harold's records. Harold hadn't realized that even though the records themselves didn't show what he'd altered, the back end of the system had logged every single change. In some instances, Harold had entered symptoms into patient records the day after they died, details that could conveniently explain a sudden collapse. But when Investig cross referenced the computer entries with phone records and family accounts, the timelines didn't match.
- [34:29]
Dr. Tristan Engels
When someone sees themselves as especially intelligent or in control, it can give them an illusion of mastery. Over time, they can come to view their strategy as untouchable and assume they're operating above the rules. This can also give them tunnel vision, where instead of questioning their own assumptions, they pay attention to what supports their sense of control. And they overlook details that could expose. In cases like this, that mindset can lead to serious mistakes. His overconfidence caused him to overestimate his knowledge about computers and computerized record keeping. Especially in the early stages of this, his confidence became a blind spot. So, ironically, his overconfidence caused him to create evidence against himself. He was so focused on maintaining the illusion that he failed to anticipate how his actions were actually being recorded and tracked. This is often a common way that serial offenders eventually get caught. Their confidence creates blind spots, and those catch up to them.
- [35:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Harold's lack of computer knowledge was his own undoing. Now, Detective Egerton's team had made a chilling discovery. The doctor had been trying to cover his Tracks. To make matters worse, there were countless patient files to go through, and already dozens of them had been changed. The list of possible victims was growing faster than Egerton ever imagined. The authorities didn't yet realize that Harold had murdered more than 200 people, almost all of them elderly patients who had trusted him completely. At the same time, Harold had no idea how exposed he truly was. He'd handed over his records, willingly, believing the files would protect him. He had no idea he'd left digital fingerprints all over his crimes. And that the evidence was only mounting. By early September 1998, investigators had seen enough. On the morning of September 7, police arrested Harold at his home. He maintained composure as officers told him he was under arrest on suspicion of murder. There was no resistance or dramatic takedown. If anything, Harold seemed irritated. But although he appeared calm outwardly, beneath his confidence, Harald had a new feeling brewing. Not yet fear, but nervousness. Nervousness about the uncertainty and about the risk that maybe he didn't have his narrative fully under control. Once Harold was handcuffed and brought down to the station, officers searched his home once more. This time, they found another hidden stash of diamorphine in his bedroom. It's unclear whether they missed it when they searched his house before, but what did they seemed clear was that Harold had no plans to stop killing.
- [37:27]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Hiding morphine at home, especially while under investigation, is very risky. Harold likely justified this as practical because he's a physician who does home health care. But there are a few alternative explanations for this behavior. Primarily, it may suggest an inability to disengage from the patterns he'd established. Whether that was his own substance use, the act of killing, or the sense of control those behaviors provided. Even with scrutiny building around him, he still maintained access to the very substance tied to both his addiction and his crimes. Though we don't necessarily know for certain that he was still using at this point. Either way, that kind of behavior can be seen in compulsive patterns where a person continues the cycle despite increasing risks. It doesn't necessarily mean they lack awareness, but it can indicate that the pull of the behavior outweighs their fear of any consequence.
- [38:23]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think it's possible that for Harald, preparation itself became part of his motive, Separate from whatever motivated him to kill in the first place.
- [38:32]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Preparation itself isn't a motive by criminology standards, But I think a better way to phrase this is that it was part of his ritual. It became ritualized. The preparation may start as a practical step, but the behavior is repeated and reinforced. It can Begin to serve its own psychological function. In that sense, it could provide control, anticipation, or readiness, Even apart from the act itself. And over time, those routines can become part of the internal experience that he's seeking, Whether it's power, control, or mastery. But I do think it's part of a ritualized process for him.
- [39:11]
Vanessa Richardson
Harold may have felt invincible, but now that he'd been arrested, the people of Hyde felt completely blindsided. Even though people didn't yet understand the full scope of what had happened, the news of Harold's arrest was enough to fracture the town's sense of reality. For some families, the news was a complete shock. For others, it triggered dread. They replayed moments they had never questioned, Deaths they had accepted and explanations they had believed. As more people realized they may have been lied to, their grief multiplied. The doctor people trusted, the one who visited sick relatives, Signed forms, and offered reassurance, Was gone.
- [39:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
When a stranger commits an act of violence, it's frightening. It can certainly throw us off, but it doesn't always necessarily shatter a person's core beliefs about the people they rely on every day. When the harm comes from someone trusted, like you mentioned, it affects a person's sense of safety and reality. These are roles that society teaches us to depend on. People are conditioned to believe that those individuals are there to help help protect and care for them. So when that trust is violated, it can create a form of betrayal, trauma. The victim or their loved ones aren't just dealing with the loss. They're grappling with the realization that the person they trusted most was the source of that harm. That can lead to intense feelings of confusion, anger, shame, and self doubt. And like you highlighted, Vanessa, it also forces people to reevaluate past experiences. Families may start replaying interactions, even their own ones, Wondering if there were signs they missed or questioning decisions they made. That's a very human response, but it can also compound the grief, because now the loss is tied to feelings of guilt, betrayal, and uncertainty.
- [41:06]
Vanessa Richardson
While Hyde struggled to process the arrest, Investigators faced a different challenge. They interrogated Harold repeatedly, Sadly hoping for a confession. But they never got one. The closest they came was when detectives confronted him with the metadata from his computer. Harold collapsed onto the floor, Crying and muttering about the changes. But even then, he admitted nothing. He broke down again during a later interrogation and was placed on suicide watch. But he continued to deny any guilt. Without a confession, Investigators had to rely entirely on evidence. And that evidence came with limits. They couldn't exhume every former patient. Exhumations were invasive, expensive, and legally Complex. Not only that, but the altered patient records went back years, and other suspicious records and timelines went back decades. Not only that, but diamorphine breaks down over time. Even full postmortems might reveal nothing. And trace amounts of diamorphic morphine wouldn't be enough to suggest someone had been murdered. All the authorities could do was decide which deaths were most likely to result in charges. In other words, which ones were worth investigating. To detective Egerton, it felt like an impossible decision. He knew the revelations had already devastated many people. Telling families he wouldn't be seeking justice for their loved ones would be an added gut punch. Quiet. The police began to accept a devastating truth. Some victims would be named. Others would remain only numbers. Some families would see a verdict. Others would be left only with doubt. It was the cost of uncovering the truth. And it meant that perhaps they would never know the full scale of Harold's crimes.
- [42:58]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Having to come to terms with uncertainty and traumatic losses like this is ambiguous question.
- [43:03]
Vanessa Richardson
Grief.
- [43:04]
Dr. Tristan Engels
People want certainty. They want a clear answer about what happened to their loved one. When that answer never comes, it can leave them in a state of ongoing doubt, wondering whether the death was natural, preventable, or part of something darker. And for investigators, it can carry its own emotional burden. Many enter the field with a strong sense of justice and getting closure. Having to acknowledge that some victims may never receive a formal resolution can feel like a heavy moral weight to carry, even when they've done everything possible. And as a community, it affects the overall trust and positions of authority and any position that comes with inherent power and control. Overcoming a betrayal of this magnitude often takes years. And for some people, that sense of safety and trust may never fully return. After something like this, how can communities
- [43:56]
Vanessa Richardson
start to even begin to reckon with harm that can't fully be resolved?
- [44:00]
Dr. Tristan Engels
One of the first steps is open recognition of what happened. When institutions or leaders acknowledge the harm honestly, rather than minimizing or trying to cover it up for liability concerns or even justifying it in any way, shape or form, it validates the experiences of the victims and their families. That's an important part of rebuilding trust. Communities also benefit from collective grieving, memorials, public inquiries, and shared rituals. Rituals give people the space to process the loss together rather than carrying it alone. That collective experience can reduce feelings of confusion or helplessness. Another key factor is accountability and reform. Even if every case can't be resolved, changes to policies, oversight, or professional standards can help the community feel that the harm led to something meaningful, that lessons were learned and protections were put in place. To prevent it from happening again, even if it was in some. Some small way. And of course, time, support and resilience can help people slowly rebuild.
- [45:10]
Vanessa Richardson
The reality was the full scale of Harold's crimes might never be known. But eventually, investigators were able to charge Harold with the murder of 15 victims. Kathleen Grundy and Joan Melia, as well as Winifred Mellor, Bianca Pomfret, Ivy Lomas, Marie Quinn, Irene Turner, Jean Lilly, Muriel Grimshaw, Nora Nuttall, Laura Wagstaff, Maureen Ward, Pamela Hillier, Marie west, and Lizzie Adams. All of these victims were women. Their ages ranged from 49 to 81, and their deaths dated back to 1996, two years before Harold was arrested. Each case was supported by exhumations, toxicology results, timelines and medical records. Harold also faced one charge of forgery for falsifying Kathleen Grundy's will. He pleaded not guilty on every count. Finally, In October of 1999, more than a year after his arrest, 53 year old Harry Herald stood trial at Preston Crown Court. He appeared thin, gray and worn down. Over the course of many weeks, the courtroom heard from more than 100 witnesses, including the victim's family members, pharmacists, toxicologists, pathologists and nurses. Family members described loved ones who'd been active and vibrant before dying suddenly, While the experts explained how diamorphine acts on the body and how much of the drug is required to kill someone.
- [46:50]
Hank
Someone.
- [46:51]
Vanessa Richardson
The whole time, Harald listened intently and took notes. Sometimes he shook his head when he seemed to disagree with what people were saying about him. His defense team focused on technical doubt, challenging toxicology results and timelines while leaning heavily on Harold's reputation as a trusted doctor. Finally, it was Harold's turn to take the stand. He kept his voice low and measured as he spoke. He occasionally slurred his words, which he blamed on medication he was taking at the time time. Throughout his testimony, he offered clinical explanations for each death, like heart disease or pneumonia. Harold did admit that he'd changed records retroactively, but he said he only did that when he found out that a patient hadn't given him the full picture of their symptoms before they died. Ultimately, Harold denied any wrongdoing. On January 31, 2000, the jury returned its verdict. They found Dr. Harold Shipman guilty on all counts. He was sentenced to life in prison. Finally, there was justice for 15 families. But for many others, questions remained. And the authorities still wanted to obtain whatever level of closure they could for other families. So after Harold was convicted, investigators reviewed his entire practice history and they found that compared to similar doctors in similar towns, his patient death rates were dramatically higher, especially among elderly women who lived alone. The same chilling pattern became more and more obvious. These women often died after a home visit. There were no witnesses, no ambulances called, and no autopsies. Harold's M.O. was becoming clearer. He made sure he was the only one present when his victims died, and and he convinced each of their families it had been sudden and natural. Authorities knew that even if they didn't have enough evidence to press further charges against Harold, they could still try to uncover the full truth of his crimes. So shortly after he went to prison for good, a public inquiry was launched. Investigators heard from family members of Harold's deceased patients, as well as some of his surviving patients. In addition to these testimonies, experts performed statistical analysis, reviewing almost 900 patient deaths in the process. In the end, their findings were staggering. In 2002, authorities released all 2,000 pages of their findings, which determined that Harold had taken at least 215 lives, including those he was also already convicted of. Authorities also suspected he'd killed an additional 45 people. On top of that, Harold Shipman wouldn't just be remembered as the man who betrayed his community. He'd go down in history as the most prolific serial killer in British history. Two years after that, Harold took his own life in prison. One day before he would have turned 50, he left no confession or explanation behind. To this day, no one has any idea what motivated him to take hundreds of lives. Without clear answers, some people in Hyde have lost their trust in doctors forever. For investigators, the trial delivered convictions, but not certainty. For families, it offered accountability, but not answers. In the end, Harold Shipman left behind not just broken trust, but questions that will forever go unanswered. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer.
- [50:58]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media rimehouse. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and
- [51:21]
Vanessa Richardson
to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. And is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Style Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzofsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Ines Renike, Sarah Tardif and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.
- [52:14]
Podcast Host/Announcer
The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real time scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment.
- [52:45]
Vanessa Richardson
Thanks for listening to today's episode. Not sure what to listen to next? Check out America's Most Infamous Crimes, hosted by Katie Ring. From serial killers to unsolved mysteries and game changing investigations, each week Katie takes on a notorious criminal case in American history. Listen to and follow America's Most Infamous Crimes now. Wherever you listen to podcasts.