Loading summary
Transcript84 lines
- [00:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This is crime house.
- [00:13]
Alexis Linkletter
Most of us know what it feels like when something just clicks. When a relationship, a belief, or a path forward just feels right. That feeling can be powerful. It can bring clarity, comfort, and peace. But those kinds of convictions can also be dangerous, especially when they go unchallenged.
- [00:31]
Jack Vanek
When Marshall Applewhite met Bonnie Lou Nettles in 1972, they didn't just feel connected. They believed fate had brought them together for a higher purpose. They used that connection to overcome their doubts and fears and encourage each other's delusions.
- [00:47]
Alexis Linkletter
Together, Marshall and Bonnie built a shared reality that rejected the world around them. But pretty soon, what started as a feeling of destiny eventually led to consequences so extreme, they shattered dozens of lives
- [00:59]
Jack Vanek
and left the rest of the world struggling to understand how it ever got that far.
- [01:18]
Vanessa Richardson
The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and Murderous minds. A Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and For the next two episodes, Dr. Engels and I are thrilled to welcome two very special guests, Alexis Linkletter and Jack Vanek of the First Degree podcast.
- [01:44]
Alexis Linkletter
Thank you so, so much for having us.
- [01:45]
Dr. Tristan Engels
We're so excited, so excited to be here. Same here for everyone listening. If you haven't checked out the First Degree, make sure to go follow it now. Vanessa and I love how you talk to people so closely connected to these cases. And for me, it's a powerful reminder that these aren't just stories. They're real events that affect real people.
- [02:07]
Vanessa Richardson
Yes. Love you guys. For the next two episodes, Jack and Alexis are going to introduce you to our subjects, Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Lou Nettles, better known as the leaders of the Heaven's Gate cult. Then be sure to stick around at the end of part two for extended conversation between Dr. Engels, Alexis, and Jack as they talk more about the case and what makes it so fascinating.
- [02:29]
Jack Vanek
Today, Vanessa and Dr. Angles begin their deep dive into all things Heaven's Gate. Together, Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Lou Nettles reinforced each other's convictions, creating a closed reality that left zero room for doubt or outside influence. As their ideas grew more extreme, they attracted followers who believed they were part of something cosmic and. And otherworldly. And once that sense of destiny took hold, it set them all on a path that could only end in catastrophe.
- [02:59]
Alexis Linkletter
And you know what? I actually haven't been able to get this case out of my head since it happened almost 30 years ago. It was the first case that got me into true crime as a whole. I was obsessed when I was like 10 years old. So it is just so crazy the longer that you dive in and really deconstruct it. What do you think, Lexington?
- [03:19]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yeah.
- [03:19]
Jack Vanek
I remember when we first started talking about true crime and realized that, like, we had that shared passion in common. It was one of the first cases that you brought up to me that you said that you were just obsessed with it when you were younger and were like doing tons of research on it.
- [03:32]
Alexis Linkletter
Yeah, it's so funny. I mean, I was the whole Nike matching outfits, the patches, like just as a 10 year old for some reason. That's what really, I don't know, it connected me to it so much and I am such a branding like obsessor that I'm like, oh. And that's kind of carried on to my life now. But there are so many layers to this case. And as Vanessa is going through the story, Dr. Engels is going to talk to us about things like how some people are drawn together by feelings of fate or destiny and how they can reinforce each other's toxic or delusional beliefs. And also how those beliefs can lead to a gradual detachment from reality.
- [04:10]
Jack Vanek
And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?
- [04:17]
Vanessa Richardson
Spring is here. Which means it's time to refresh your wardrobe for warmer days, spring break plans, and all the busy life in between. But let's be honest. Finding clothes that fit your style and schedule, that's easier said than done. That's why Daily look is perfect for busy women like us. Daily look is the number one highest rated premium personal styling service for women. You get a dedicated personal stylist who curates a box of clothes based on your body shape, style preferences and lifestyle. Delivered straight to your door. Real stylists, not an algorithm. And you get the same stylist every time, so your wardrobe always feels personal. Each box can have up to 12 premium pieces. Try everything on at home. Keep what you love. Return the rest. Shipping is free both ways with flexible delivery every 30, 60, or 90 days. Refreshing your spring wardrobe has never been easier. It's effortless style, saving you time and energy so you can focus on everything else. This season, elevate your style by signing up@dailylook.com today. Take your style quiz@dailylook.com and get 50% off your first styling fee with the code serial. That's dailylook.com code S E R I A L Get in the game with
- [05:35]
Ad Voice 1
the college branded Venmo debit card.
- [05:38]
Jack Vanek
Rep your team with every tap and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash, a new rewards program from Venmo. No monthly fee, no minimum balance, just
- [05:47]
Ad Voice 1
school pride and spending power. Get in the game and sign up for the Venmo debit card@venmo.com collegecard the
- [05:54]
Jack Vanek
Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. select schools available. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply at Venmo me stash terms max $100 cash back per month
- [06:05]
Vanessa Richardson
Sometimes the most shocking stories have the most ordinary beginnings. That was certainly the case for the cult known as Heaven's Gate and its leader, Marshall Applewhite Marshall was born in 1932 in the small city of Spur, Texas. He had a typical all American upbringing, and religion was a very important part of his childhood. His father was a well known Presbyterian minister in the area, and he encouraged Marshall to live a life of virtue, one that his family and God would be proud of. Marshall was eager to please. Growing up, he attended church regularly and wanted to become a minister just like his father. But while Marshall was a staunch Christian, he was also interested in looking elsewhere for the answers to life's biggest questions. So when it was time for him to go to college in the late 1940s or early 50s, Marshall decided to study philosophy at Austin College in Sherman, Texas, and he made a splash on campus right away. Classmates remembered Marshall as an extrovert with a magnetic personality. Along with joining the association of Prospective Presbyterian Ministers, Marshall was a talented singer who led the school school's acapella group. It seemed like whatever Marshall set his mind to, he would achieve it. And when it was time to graduate in 1952, the 20 year old decided to follow in his father's footsteps. That year he enrolled at Virginia's Union Theological Seminary. But even though he enjoyed diving deeper into Presbyterian theology, he still felt like something was missing. So after two years, he decided to change course. He dropped out and studied music and voice instead. Marshall had an undeniable gift. For a while, he even dreamed of a career in opera or acting. But life had other plans. Ever since high school, Marshall had been dating a woman named Anne Pierce. She was a fellow Texan who shared Marshall's religious beliefs, and despite being long distance while Marshall was at seminary school, they both stayed loyal. In 1952, around the same time, Marshall dropped out and studied music. He and Anne got married. Before long, they'd settled down in suburban Houston and had two children at this point, Marshall knew he'd never be a big star, but he could use his voice to support his family. Soon he became the choral director at Houston's St. Mark's Episcopal Church, as well as a music professor at The University of St. Thomas, also in Houston. He was good at what he did. But deep down, Marshall was restless and unhappy because there was one thing he'd never told anyone. He was bisexual. From a young age, Marshall had been taught to hide who he was or face the wrath of people like his father. For decades, he'd succeeded, but it had put a wall between him and those around him.
- [09:03]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Keeping a core part of your identity secret can create internal conflict, especially when it clashes with strongly held religious or cultural beliefs that you were raised in. If Marshall's sexuality and his faith were fundamentally at odds, that can cause an identity conflict or cognitive dissonance. And here's how. On one hand, he valued his religious upbringing. It brought him meaning, and he likely didn't want to abandon the beliefs, the community, or the structure it provided. Being raised in a specific religion can become a large part of your identity, because this is often where you're taught values and narratives and how you're expected to your life. Like you said, Vanessa, he was taught to live a life of virtue. On the other hand, his sexual identity is also an authentic part of him as well. When he felt he had to hide because of this, and when two parts of a person or two parts of their lives feel incompatible like this, it can lead to chronic stress, shame, and feeling that they don't fully belong anywhere. And that can create emotional isolation because they may feel that no one truly knows them. In religious context, where certain identities or orientations are stigmatized, that can be even more intense. They may fear rejection from their faith and community, their family, or even professional circles. Often, to cope, many try to reconcile or compartmentalize the conflict which Marshall seems to be doing here, and that can increase feelings of alienation. It's a truly distressing experience.
- [10:40]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, by the mid-60s, Marshall did feel alienated from his wife and kids and resentful of his quiet suburban life. Eventually, he couldn't repress those feelings anymore, and it would cost him everything. Sometime in 1965, when Marshall was 33, he allegedly had an affair with a male student at the University of St. Thomas. The details are murky, but eventually Anne found out. She was furious and immediately separated from Marshall. Three years later, in 1968, the couple officially divorced, and Anne got custody of their two children. Shortly after that, in 1970, the university learned about Marshall's rumored relationship with the student, and he was fired. Feeling lost and alone, Marshall spent two years drifting around the country, searching for his purpose. Because of the Presbyterian Church's stance on sexuality, Marshall no longer felt welcome there. It was a huge blow to his sense of self. For his whole life, Marshall had found meaning and community through his congregation, and he still yearned for that feeling of belonging. But now he'd have to find it outside of conventional religion. Soon he found a new sense of spirituality outside of traditional religion, including astrology, science fiction, ancient mysticism, and UFOs.
- [12:05]
Dr. Tristan Engels
For most of his life, Marshall's identity had been centered in the church. And like we discussed, it, gave him structure, purpose, belonging, even if it was conditional and an idea of who he was supposed to be. So when that was taken and he could no longer compartmentalize, he lost the system that had essentially organized his entire life. So now he's vulnerable, and in that space, alternative ideas like these can become more appealing. These less traditional subjects that he was drawn to offered him the things he just lost, but likely without the conditions. And that's a pattern we see often when someone feels pushed out of a traditional structure. They don't usually stop searching for belief. Instead, they start looking elsewhere. And belief systems that feel more accepting and less conditional are certainly going to be more attractive to Marshall, especially right now.
- [13:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think it's possible that a search for belonging could unintentionally deepen someone's isolation from reality?
- [13:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
The search for belonging is a very normal human need. When someone feels rejected or unsure of who they are, they naturally look for people or beliefs that make them feel accepted and understood. But the search for connection doesn't usually push someone away from reality in itself. It's the source of that connection, because not all groups are safe. So, for example, if a group starts to frame an outside world as ignorant or dangerous, and they're attracted to that, then over time, their social circle and the sources of the information that they're getting become more limited. So inside, that doesn't feel like isolation, but from the outside it is. And it could also be indoctrination. Closed belief systems can gradually narrow reality, and it can distance them from other perspectives. That's when it becomes more dangerous, and that can become more of an isolation for reality.
- [14:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, even though his spirituality was tipping into the fringes and leaving the traditional religion, Marshall still tried to lead a normal life. While exploring these new ideas, he supported himself by dabbling in small ventures. At some point, he even ran a Sandwich shop in New Mexico. But nothing seemed to stick. So in 1972, 40 year old Marshall returned to Houston. He was looking for a fresh start. And that included someone to build his life with. Because despite his newfound interests, he still felt very much alone. Marshall had no partner and no relationship with his two children, 15 year old Mark and 13 year old Lane. Even worse, his own father didn't want anything to do with him. It seemed like Marshall would never feel whole again. And then he met Bonnie Lou Nettles. On the surface, Bonnie's origins were just as ordinary as Marshall's. Born in Houston in 1927, she was the second of three children in working class Baptist family. She married young, built a life as a nurse and raised four children in the suburbs. But as the years went by, she felt increasingly out of place in the tidy routines of family life. Like Marshall, Bonnie felt like an outsider. Her daughter described her as someone who never really fit into society. She'd been raised in the Baptist church, but she'd never felt particularly connected to the religion. Bonnie was more of a dreamer. She liked to stare at the night sky and pretend a UFO would take her away. So it wasn't a surprise that she turned to new age spirituality for answers. She explored astrology, theosophy and fringe ideas about life and the universe. Her nights were filled with study groups and seances, which often left her straight laced husband bewildered. For example, she once told him that she was getting life advice from a dead monk named Brother Francis. She also claimed she'd made contact with the deceased Hollywood icon Marilyn Monroe, as well as aliens from the planet Venus.
- [16:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Before we get into Bonnie specifically, I think it's important to say that an interest in things like astrology, extraterrestrials or other spiritual ideas is very common. Many people explore those topics out of curiosity. Personal meaning or just wanting to understand them, or the universe on its own. That doesn't indicate anything pathological or even alarming. Humans have always tried to make sense of their lives through belief systems, whether those are traditional religions or more alternative spiritual ideas. The difference shows up in how much the belief starts to shape a person's life. Many people might visit a psychic during a stressful time, but they still make their own decisions. They keep their jobs, maintain relationships and stay grounded in day to day responsibilities. The belief is just one part of the world, it should not be the center of it. It becomes more concerning when the guidance starts to take over. If someone begins to believe they have a special line of communication that others don't, or they start Making major life decisions based entirely on those messages. That's where there may be, and I say may, may be reason for concern, Especially if those choices begin to cause real problems in their functioning, Whether it's financial, legal, or relational. In those cases, relationships, responsibilities and outside perspectives can start to matter less. Because the supernatural guidance or paranormal guidance they're getting feels more real or more important to them. And for someone like Bonnie, who already feels so disconnected from everything, that can feel like a very powerful sense of certainty because it offers direction, purpose, and maybe feeling chosen special some way. And for someone like Bonnie, who never felt really comfortable or at home in conventional roles or traditional religion, those beliefs probably offered a clearer sense of meaning to her Than the life she was feeling stuck in.
- [18:13]
Vanessa Richardson
Do you think this kind of belief or these kinds of beliefs could make a person more open to influence from others who share similar views?
- [18:22]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yeah, it can. Especially if the person already feels isolated or unsure of their direction. Meeting someone who shares the same deeply held beliefs can be validating, of course, but it's also like an instant connection. Having shared beliefs can make a relationship feel more meaningful or trustworthy. And that can make someone more receptive to other people's ideas. Not necessarily because, you know, they're easily influenced, but because the beliefs reinforce each other and it strengthens the sense of shared purpose. There's also potential biases, like a confirmation bias, that strengthen that influence as well. Once a particular belief is adopted and strongly adopted, they naturally are going to pay attention more to information or people that support that same belief and filter out other things.
- [19:15]
Vanessa Richardson
Bonnie knew there was more out there for her. And by 1972, it was clear that she and her husband weren't a good fit. It's possible the last straw for Bonnie's husband was when she took one of their daughters outside to look at the night sky and muse about a flying saucer coming to take them away. Despite how disconnected she felt from her life, this period of time was still hard for Bonnie. Her marriage was failing and her future felt uncertain. But there was one thing keeping her going. A fortune teller had predicted a tall, fair skinned man would one day change her life. That person came in the form of Marshall Applewhite. Once the pair met, Bonnie and Marshall began blending their ideologies, then deepening them. And once that happened, their worlds and the lives of many others changed forever. Rula makes therapy something you can actually access without all the stress. There was a time when I was dealing with constant anxiety and burnout, and I knew I needed support. But every therapist I found online either didn't take my insurance or the out of pocket cost was just too high. It felt impossible to get the help I needed. Rula changes that they partner with over 100 insurance plans which makes the average co pay just $15 per session, sometimes even $0 depending on your benefits. That means licensed in network therapy that's affordable. RULA is personalized. They take your goals, preferences and background into account, giving you a curated list of therapists who truly fit your needs. No wait lists, no back and forth. Appointments can be available as soon as tomorrow and they stick with you along the way to make sure your care is actually helping. Thousands of people are already using RULA to get affordable, high quality therapy that's actually covered by Insurance. Visit rula.com serial to get started. After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. That's R U L A.com S E-R-I-A L. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
- [21:34]
Ad Voice 1
Do you have $10,000 or more in credit card debt? Maybe you're even barely getting by by making minimum payments. With credit card debt hitting record highs, National Debt Relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up. These options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify. You don't need to declare bankruptcy and you may be able to pay back less than you owe regardless of your credit. National Debt Relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than 550,000 consumers, so don't wait if you owe 10, 20, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. You can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases. To find out how much you could save, Visit National Debt Relief.com that's NationalDebtRelief.com
- [22:20]
Vanessa Richardson
By 1972, 40 year old Marshall Applewhite and 45 year old Bonnie Lou Nettles both felt out of place in their own lives. But when the two lost souls met for the first time and they became convinced their connection was more than coincidence, it was destiny. There are a few different versions of how Bonnie and Marshall met. We know it happened at the Houston hospital where Bonnie worked, but it's not clear how Marshall ended up there. Some say he was just visiting a friend. Others say he had a brush with death or that he'd suffered a mental breakdown. According to at least one source, Marshall had been admitted to the psychiatric unit for symptoms of Depression and hearing voices.
- [23:04]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It's too bad that's not verified, because that would be very useful information to have for this analysis.
- [23:11]
Vanessa Richardson
Either way, as soon as Bonnie and Marshall locked eyes, the connection was instant. They felt like they'd known each other forever. Which is probably why Marshall felt so comfortable telling Bonnie something that so far he'd only admitted to one other friend. He explained that he'd been visited by a presence that had, quote, given him all the knowledge of where the human race had come from and where it was going, end quote. Just like Marshall had expected, Bonnie wasn't fazed at all. In fact, as he went on to describe other visions and out of body experiences, Bonnie said she could help him sort through all the noise. She offered to read Marshall's astrological chart. Marshall was so excited, he immediately ran out to his car to grab his birth certificate, which Bonnie needed to see in order to read his chart correctly. It was the first time they'd ever met. And to Marshall, the whole thing was worth it, because according to Bonnie, she and Marshall had known each other in a previous life and they'd been brought back together to perform a quote, great task.
- [24:16]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Symbolic systems like astrology tend to become especially appealing during periods of uncertainty or emotional distress. When someone feels lost, rejected, or unsure in general about the direction of their life, they often start looking for something that can offer them hope, meaning, or reassurance. Astrology provides that in a very accessible way. It offers clear explanations about personality, relationships and life events. It can frame certain struggles as part of a larger pattern, rather than random or meaningless setbacks. For someone going through a difficult transition, that can be comforting and even stabilizing. It also removes some of the pressure that uncertainty brings in a period like this. So instead of feeling like they have no direction, they may start to believe, okay, now there's a plan, a purpose, or even a destiny that's guiding them. So it's really about what the system provides. And when you're in a period of vulnerability, Beliefs that offer clarity, identity, or direction can feel convincing because they help organize confusing or painful experiences into a story that makes sense. And I think everyone can relate to this because maybe not with astrology specifically, but maybe with other symbolic systems like tarot or numerology or even the Law of Attraction.
- [25:40]
Vanessa Richardson
What psychological impact can occur when someone makes major life decisions based on perceived signs or fate?
- [25:48]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It can shift their sense of control. Instead of weighing options, seeking advice, or considering consequences, they may begin to rely on those signs as their primary source or their primary guide. That can feel Reassuring at first, like for all the reasons we talked about. It reduces uncertainty. It gives decisions meaning or destiny. But that can affect independent decision making. And it can make someone feel more vulnerable to risky choices, especially if those decisions start to harm their relationships or their finances and overall stability. I mean, Bonnie's a great example. She left her husband and her children and look where she is, right? So that's an example of those risky choices.
- [26:32]
Vanessa Richardson
To Marshall, the reading made perfect sense. Suddenly he understood why he'd felt so lost the last few years. It was because he was searching for. For Bonnie. And now that they'd found one another, they couldn't waste another second. Within months, Bonnie and Marshall opened a spiritual center in Houston. They sold New Age books and held classes on meditation, astrology and healing. Even though Bonnie and Marshall abandoned their entire lives to be together, they were never involved romantically and they seemed to prefer it that way. Especially Marshall. He'd had a few relationships after his divorce with both men and women. He'd even been engaged once, but nothing ever worked out. Marshall always felt stifled by romantic relationships and that they were doomed to fail. However, his relationship with Bonnie was different. Even though they weren't physically attracted to each other, what they had was more intense than a simple friendship. They believed they were cosmically linked and nothing could tear them apart, not even financial failure. It turned out the center wasn't their great task. They didn't have many customers, and after just a few months, they had to shutter the doors. But rather than question their path, Bonnie and Marshall interpreted the failure as a sign. Their true purpose, they believed, lay elsewhere. Bonnie and Marshall took their teachings out of the city and into rural Texas, where they opened a spiritual wellness retreat called no Place spelled K N O W. There, in relative isolation, their ideas intensified. They studied scripture, mysticism and and theories about the end of the world. Slowly, they came to believe they weren't just spiritual seekers. They were chosen. In July 1973, Bonnie and Marshall had a revelation. They weren't just two middle aged Texans searching for meaning. They were the two witnesses from the Book of Revelation, destined to guide humanity into a higher realm of existence.
- [28:36]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It sounds like they were already operating in a fairly closed system of their own. By what you described, they're living and working together. They're studying the same materials, New Age materials, and they're reinforcing the same beliefs without any kind of outside input or anyone else challenging that. When two people are that isolated and share a strong emotional and ideological bond, their ideas are going to naturally start to intensify. And become more certain over time. Individually, both Bonnie and Marshall had histories of feeling out of place in their ordinary lives. They were both searching for meaning, direction, and belonging. So a belief that they were chosen for a divine role would have given them a powerful new identity. That right there gives their past struggles purpose as a unit that strengthens them even more, which is evident by how they named themselves, the two witness. They gave themselves a unified identity. That indicates to me that they viewed their relationship as sacred and irreplaceable. That is a very rigid psychological alliance. How do you begin to doubt that when now? Questioning the belief would also mean questioning the relationship and the purpose they share. It's concerning.
- [29:56]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, as soon as Bonnie and Marshall had that epiphany, they abandoned the wellness retreat and traveled the country.
- [30:03]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And this is only going to intensify their ideological connection because they're further isolating themselves from outside perspectives that might challenge those beliefs that they have absolutely.
- [30:14]
Vanessa Richardson
And at first, their purpose was hazy. They drove aimlessly through small towns and camped under the stars. They lived on the edge of poverty, Surviving on odd jobs, Donations from friends, and occasionally selling their blood at donation centers. Throughout it all, they continued to develop their spiritual vision. And it became increasingly dark. Bonnie and Marshall believed the earth was on the brink of destruction. If someone wanted to be saved, they needed to leave all of their human attachments behind. Marriage, family, possessions, everything tying a person to this world had to be severed. And in their eyes, they were already on the path to full salvation. Bonnie and Marshall believed in a heavenly realm known as level above human, which, according to them, was accessible only to those willing to undergo total transformation. They not only believed this realm existed, but that they were from there and had been sent as messengers to guide others back. They believed their job was to help people transform. This was both a spiritual and a physical process, A literal, literal change that would come over those who followed their teachings. Like in the biblical book of Revelation, Bonnie and Marshall thought a rapture was coming, and only the faithful would be swept up to heaven. But there was a major difference in their belief system, too. According to them, heaven was a real physical place they'd travel to, and their mode of transportation would be a ufo.
- [31:50]
Dr. Tristan Engels
So they're starting to do some blending. They're blending traditional religious ideas with supernatural, and that can make extreme beliefs feel logical, because traditional religion already provided them A familiar structure, Especially if they've been raised in it. For example, concepts like salvation, prophecy, chosen members, or end of times Are ideas that are recognizable or accepted, not just within their faith based community, but maybe even in their homes growing up as well. So blending these supernatural elements into that is like reinterpreting that same framework to create coherence. It allows people like Marshall and Bonnie to feel like they're not abandoning the tradition they were raised on, but they're doing it in a way that feels credible to them now, a way that can allow them to maybe even recruit others in the process.
- [32:45]
Vanessa Richardson
What psychological needs might be fulfilled by believing transformation and salvation are actually physically attainable?
- [32:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think it can meet several. I mean, first, it offers control if it's framed as something concrete and achievable through specific actions. It gives people structure, clear directions, and a path that reduces uncertainty, which we talked about is one of the more desirable aspects of this. Second, it offers hope that feels tangible. In this case, Marshall and Bonnie have both been dissatisfied with their lives, feeling out of place. And this belief offers them the hope of a new body and a new identity, which is a complete reset. A total solution is what that is to, you know, everything that's been keeping them unhappy and dissatisfied. And I think also it can soothe fear, especially fear of death or fear of insignificance, which is something that I think many people experience. The promise that there is another level, something that comes after can stabilize that and restore any feelings of powerlessness. I think those are the things that that can fulfill psychologically.
- [33:59]
Vanessa Richardson
Well, Bonnie and Marshall quickly realized their message wasn't an easy sell, especially the part about being beamed up to heaven in a ufo. The two, as Marshall and Bonnie started calling themselves, tried reaching out to churches and bookstores around the country. They pitched their ideas to anyone who would listen. Most people dismissed them as harmless eccentrics. The constant rejection wore on them. But they were determined. Finally, in May 1974, after almost a year of outrage, Bonnie and Marshall got their first recruit. Now, they didn't just believe their ideas, they were living them. Pretty soon, their actions would push them further into the societal fringes and onto the wrong side of the law.
- [34:55]
Ad Voice 2
Are you stuck staring at your W2? Are tax refund worries holding you back? You probably have ph the fear of messing up the fix. Using TurboTax on intuit credit Karma. They find every credit and deduction to help you get every refund dollar you deserve or your money back. It's time to overcome your fear of messing up and get your taxes done right. Start filing today in the Credit Karma app. Disney wants to know, are you ready?
- [35:26]
Vanessa Richardson
Yes.
- [35:28]
Ad Voice 2
For Marvel Studios Thunderbolt, the New Avengers. Now streaming on Disney plus.
- [35:32]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Let's do this.
- [35:33]
Ad Voice 2
One of the best Marvel movies of all time is now streaming on Disney plus.
- [35:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Hey, you weren't listening to me.
- [35:39]
Ad Voice 2
I said Thunderbolts the New Avengers is now streaming on Disney plus.
- [35:44]
Vanessa Richardson
Meet the New Avengers.
- [35:47]
Dr. Tristan Engels
That's cool then.
- [35:48]
Ad Voice 2
Marvel Studios Thunderbolts the New Avengers, rated PG 13. Now streaming on. You guessed it, Disney Plus.
- [35:53]
Vanessa Richardson
I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward and on season nine of Mind of a
- [35:58]
Jack Vanek
Monster, we're bringing you the case of of serial killer Michael Gargiulo.
- [36:02]
Ad Voice 2
He either charms him because he needs him to do something, or he stalks
- [36:05]
Vanessa Richardson
him because he's going to kill him. The repairman with Hollywood good looks who
- [36:10]
Jack Vanek
stalked and attacked his female neighbors in their own homes.
- [36:13]
Vanessa Richardson
The jury was shown the photos from her apartment and it was just covered in blood. Listen to Mind of a Monster, the
- [36:20]
Jack Vanek
Hollywood Ripper, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:26]
Vanessa Richardson
In the spring of 1974, 42 year old Marshall Applewhite and 47 year old Bonnie Lou Nettles had been on their shared spiritual journey for about a year. They called themselves the two and believed they were sent from a cosmic heavenly realm to spread their message and guide others to salvation. That year they found their first follower, a woman named Sharon. We don't know much about Sharon or how old she was, but at the time she was married with several young kids, and she'd been feeling unhapp happy in her relationship for a while. She'd first met Bonnie and Marshall at their old bookstore in Houston, and she reconnected with them when they returned to the city to preach their gospel there. When Sharon heard Bonnie and Marshall's message, it immediately resonated with her. Sharon was seeking a higher truth, something to give her life greater meaning. And before long, she abandoned her family to join Bonnie and Marshall in their travels around the US There's a pattern emerging here.
- [37:27]
Dr. Tristan Engels
First Marshall, then Bonnie, and now Sharon. They all described feeling unsettled in their lives. They were dissatisfied, disconnected, searching for more. All three of them are now drawn to the same beliefs. And like we talked about, when someone has been living in a state of restlessness like that for a prolonged period of time, people become more receptive to messages that offer comfort and direction. And from the inside, these decisions rarely feel extreme. They can feel like alignment, like they're finally moving something that makes sense. And with people who accept them, what
- [38:00]
Vanessa Richardson
are the psychological risks of making a drastic life choice during periods of emotional vulnerability like that?
- [38:07]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Such a great question. When someone is experiencing significant emotional distress or in a lot of vulnerability, the brain prioritizes immediate relief, and that unfortunately overrides judgment. And with that comes risks like impulsivity. For example, a major life decision like Sharon's choice to abandon her family, Much like Bonnie's and Marshall's, May be driven more by emotional impulse and intensity. The difficulty is that once those emotions stabilize and clarity returns, if it does, the consequences of those decisions may not be easily reversible, Especially if there's regret there, Meaning sometimes families won't accept that back or won't be able to forgive. So another risk is over reliance on a single person or belief system. So if someone is particularly vulnerable, they may attach strongly to whatever or whoever offers them that certainty or reassurance. That can increase more susceptibility to influence, and it can reduce critical thinking. And there's also the risk of, you know, identity disturbance. When a belief system requires that someone completely resets or isolates from all of their loved ones. And if that doesn't meet expectations once they do that, that can result in further instability rather than resolution.
- [39:34]
Vanessa Richardson
Sharon seemed to find her footing pretty quickly. She took on the role of publicist, Arranging speaking events for Bonnie and Marshall and gathering crowds ahead of their arrival. This went on for about four months. Then Sharon had a change of heart. She still believed in Bonnie and Marshall, but the guilt she felt over leaving her children behind was unbearable. In the early fall of 1974, Sharon returned home. But it wasn't the happy reunion she'd been hoping for. When she got back, her husband learned that Sharon had let Bonnie and Marshall use her credit card. He contacted the police and accused them them a fraud. That fall, officers arrested both of them, and although Sharon's husband soon dropped the charges and Bonnie went free, Marshall wasn't clear just yet, because while in custody, Authorities discovered he had an outstanding warrant against him for stealing a rental car in Missouri. Marshall not only admitted to stealing the car, he said he did it because he was on a godly mission, and therefore human laws did not apply to him. Of course, this defense didn't hold up in court, and Marshall spent the next six months in jail. But he used the time behind bars to perfect his and Bonnie's new religion. There he also had a shocking epiphany. He and Bonnie hadn't just been chosen because they were the two. They were chosen because they were not human. Invest fact they were aliens, and they'd been sent to earth to help their followers transform into perfected beings like them. Marshall thought he and Bonney were modern day prophets who came from a long line of earlier Messengers, including Jesus, Ezekiel, and Elijah, who he believed were all extraterrestrial beings. He believed they'd one day be killed by their enemies before rising from the dead and transforming into perfect, immortal aliens. At that point, their most loyal followers would also become aliens, and they would all be carried away to their home realm in a ufo.
- [41:44]
Dr. Tristan Engels
You know, what stands out to me about this is the shift from seeing themselves as messengers to seeing themselves as aliens. For a long time, both of them described feeling out of place. Like we talked about, they were out of place in their families and their careers and even in traditional religion. They felt different. They felt like outsiders. And now they're quite literally labeling themselves as that. And with that is another reframing. They're not just people who felt like they didn't belong. They believe they were never meant to belong here at all. That shift is significant, and I think it's also important to consider their mental health functioning leading up to this. Aside from what we know about Marshall, that's not verified. Chronic emptiness or dissatisfaction can lead to depression, and severe depression can cause psychotic symptoms as well. I don't know for certain if psychosis is happening. I mean, we can't know for certain because they're not here to ask. But there is a striking lack of insight when Marshall speaks to law enforcement. That could reflect the rigid thinking that we would expect to see develop within a closed belief system. But it also raises questions about mood disturbance, possible thought disturbance, or impaired reality testing. Without Marshall or Bonnie, again, there's no way to tell for sure. But what becomes clinically relevant here is the escalation. The shift suggests increasing rigidity in their thinking and expansion of the belief system, which historically makes it harder to challenge for them internally.
- [43:18]
Vanessa Richardson
How can conviction or certainty make someone appear credible to others?
- [43:23]
Dr. Tristan Engels
People tend to mistake confidence for accuracy and authority. Even if the claim itself hasn't been verified, the delivery of it can make it sound legitimate. We see this happen on a large scale all the time, especially on, like, social media with posts that say breaking news. And like a meme, if it sounds confident, people tend to believe it, even if the source isn't verified or the image posted hasn't even been confirmed to be real or not altered. Also, if someone is feeling uncertain or dissatisfied in their own life, a person who appears confident can feel reassuring, and that can be persuasive. That consistency in confidence can create the impression of authority because they're presented as fact rather than something that's open to questioning. And when you think about it, that's how Indoctrination happens. Information is presented as absolute fact, and it isn't open to questioning. And also, like I mentioned before, they were blending traditional religious concepts with supernatural. So they were linking or anchoring these concepts together to make them more believable, because these were. These religious concepts were already widely accepted, so outsiders are more likely to at least listen. When that was happening, Marshall took off
- [44:42]
Vanessa Richardson
with his newfound ideology as soon as possible. A month after he was released in April 1975, he and Bonney penned a declaration of their ideologies and mailed it out to New Age spiritual groups nationwide. Only a few responded, and one of them completely altered the course of Bonnie and Marshall's journey. The group was based in Los Angeles. Many people there were already interested in New Age philosophies and the occult. It was exactly the kind of receptive audience Bonnie and Marshall had been looking for. So in May of that year, they traveled to California. They arrived at the gathering with matching short haircuts and tracksuits. Then they laid out their message and invited members of the group to follow them. Their only requirement was that anyone who joined them had to give up their entire lives. Their jobs, personal possessions, families, everything. Their convictions were obvious to everyone in the room. After that meeting, somewhere between 23 to 27 people were convinced that the end of the world was near. And they walked out on their lives to join the wandering duo. In September, another meeting in Oregon brought them an additional 20 to 33 followers, which brought their numbers up to about 60. The new recruits were a mix of ages and backgrounds. Among them were disillusioned young adults searching for deeper meaning, professionals burned out by conventional life and free spirits looking for adventure. But they were all united by the same thing. A willingness to make radical sacrifices in the name of transcendence. As for Bonnie and Marshall, they now had a flock, which they were now calling human individual metamorphosis. And they quickly adopted new names, Bo and Peep, underscoring their role as shepherds guiding their followers, who they called the sheep. Still, despite their growing numbers, the group remained unstable and disorganized. Marsh and Bonnie often struggled to feed and house everyone. They lived communally in makeshift camps around the country and shared what little they had. On top of that, Bonnie and Marshall instituted strict guidelines for their followers. They weren't allowed to have idle conversations, drink, do any form of drugs, or have sex. The two explained that banning these things was necessary to begin the process of severing physical attachments. That way, they would be prepared to start the chemical, physical, and Biological transformation into their new extraterrestrial bodies. As part of that process, Bonnie and Marshall split the movement into groups of two. Members were paired with another Czech partner to help them overcome their human attachments, Especially their attachment to sex. Heterosexual men and women were paired together. Gay men were paired with other gay men. And lesbian women were paired with other lesbian women. This was intentional. On Bonnie and Marshall's plan part, they wanted their followers to feel sexually attracted to one another. The key was to fight off any urges that might arise. If you succeeded, you were one step closer to transcending.
- [48:01]
Dr. Tristan Engels
When leaders begin tightly controlling behavior like this, it often strengthens commitment because the more rules someone follows, the more invested they become. Sacrifice creates psychological buy in. The more someone gives up up, the harder it becomes to walk away. It functions like a sunk cost effect. This is also a loyalty test. Behavioral control also reduces outside influence. So if members aren't drinking, socializing freely, or engaging with people outside of the group, Their world becomes smaller and more isolated. That allows the leader and the belief system to occupy more of their world. That increases dependence on the leader or leaders, which is a common feature of high control groups or cults. Sexual regulation is a particularly powerful tool because sexuality is closely tied to identity and attachment and autonomy. So when a group dictates how, when, or whether someone can express sexual attraction, that's essentially reshaping someone's self concept. The pairing like this was a psychological test. Desire became something that they had to overcome. And it's worth noting that this almost mirrors Marshall's own lived experience. He had to suppress same sex attraction in order to maintain his standing within his religious and professional life. That personal history may have influenced how sexual restraint was framed within the group's teachings as well. As that said, they are attempting to create a shared struggle within the group and boundaries as well, to maintain allegiance within the system. Other cult leaders, like Charles Manson also manipulated sexual access to consolidate power. Sexual control is very powerful. It's a powerful leverage. And I think Marshall knew this from personal experience.
- [50:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Once someone accepts limits on what they cannot do, like his followers decided, you know, they accepted that they couldn't have sex, they couldn't do drugs, they couldn't do anything, Then does it become easier for someone to guide what they will do?
- [50:15]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Absolutely it can, because it narrows their behavioral range. So after a prolonged period of time, that can shift our sense of autonomy. So if the group defines the boundaries, Members begin to look to the same source of authority for direction about what they should do do. When there is restriction socially behaviorally or psychologically, it can become easier than for a leader to guide them. Guide their actions, their beliefs, and their identity in whatever desired direction they want.
- [50:48]
Vanessa Richardson
Once everyone was paired off, Bonnie and Marshall gave them their first assignment to find more members. Partners would travel the country together, working through their desires and seeking out converts. Occasionally they would meet back up with the group at different campgrounds, but in the days before cell phones, communicating wasn't so easy. Members would send each other letters or use short term PO boxes to figure out where they were meeting next. But mostly each set of partners went wherever they felt called to go. It's not surprising that this caused some issues. At one point in late 1975 or early 76, two members got lost and couldn't find the rest of the group. They resorted to giving an interview to reporters in the hopes that Bonnie and Marshall would see it and come find them. It's not clear if that ever happened, but by April 1976, 49 year old Bonnie and 44 year old Marshall realized their organization would never survive if they couldn't get organized. So they stopped traveling and settled down in a remote corner of Wyoming. Pretty soon though, Bonnie and Marshall would learn a harsh lesson that there was no such thing as total control. And when a grim reality caught them by surprise, the two fell deeper into their dark fantasy. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time as we discuss the minds of Bonnie Lou Nettles and Marshall Applewhite with Alexis Linkletter and Jack Vanek of the First Degree Podcast.
- [52:34]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media Crime House and don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and
- [52:57]
Vanessa Richardson
to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Persofsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. This episode is brought to you by Nespresso Introducing Vertuo up the latest in
- [53:55]
Jack Vanek
a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense and
- [54:00]
Vanessa Richardson
taste in every single cup.
- [54:02]
Jack Vanek
With a three second start, easy open
- [54:04]
Vanessa Richardson
lever and dedicated brew open over ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo up exclusively@nespreso.com thanks for listening to today's episode. Not sure what to listen to next? Check out America's Most Infamous Crimes, hosted by Katie Ring. From serial killers to unsolved mysteries and game changing investigations, each week Katie takes on a notorious criminal case in American history. Listen to and follow America's Most Infamous Crimes now. Wherever you listen to podcasts,
- [54:43]
Ad Voice 2
it's tax season. And at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers. But here's a big one you need to hear. Billions. That's the amount of money in refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it. Guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock. Com podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.